Politics (forewarning anyone who doesn't want to read)

[firstmatefluff]

Here's something I don't necessarily understand, and if anyone has input (reasonable and intelligent, rather than just name-calling) I'd love to hear it: This board is for fishermen. Presumably, fishermen sometimes eat what they catch, or would at least like to have the option....

Now, as concerned fishermen, how many of you plan to support "Dubya," when he's been the biggest whore for industry and the worst environmentalist in US Presidential history? He actually had industry lobbyists help create environmental guidelines....sort of like inviting pedophiles to set up a neighborhood watch :(

I support the Second Amendment myself, and admit freely that the 2nd Amendment is where Democrats have long since dropped the ball in rural areas, including most of Wisconsin (my home), but I vote on a "big picture"........Bush is the guy who decided to strip Clinton-Era mercury reduction plans, which would have called for a 90% reduction in mercury over the next 5 or 10 years, supports offshore drilling wherever, has taken us backwards on runoff protections and raped the Clean Water Act........(by the way, the mercury and PCB issues are real, believe me, I'm a scientist and worked with individuals studying both.)

I just don't understand.....I'm not exactly "excited" about Kerry, but as a fisherman, hunter, and just a guy who prefers the outdoors unlogged, unpaved, and clean enough I don't have to wear a HazMat suit to go hiking, I don't get the support for George I see in Southern Fishermen......just my 2 cents.

Mark

[bluerunner]

i wonder about the same thing.

[reddog1]

In my opinion I think it is wrong to put the blame of mercury in fish and wildlife solely on the US. There could be the toughest regulations you want here in the US but toxic fumes from China's buring of coal, where regulations are next to none, will continue to rain down around the world. The US burns far less coal, on a percentage basis than other countries. Oil and natural gas contain far less mercury or other heavy metals than coal.

[J_Lannon]

Bush was handed a faulty EPA standard when he got into office. Much of the information attributed to the current lead and mercury standards were from radicals. Bush wanted a new study done to make sure we were not cutting off the feet of various industries around the US.

The jury is still out as to what a safe level is for these two pollutants. In my mind a zero level is the safe way, but also unobtainable.

I'll take todays enviroment over 30 years ago anyday. Many rivers around the country are coming back. I hope 30 years from now, our grand children see things even better still.

As far as your Bush being a whore for the industries, you are way out of line. Go take a serious look at the panel regarding the issue. Some of the most respect scientists in the world are on it. The names do not look like a bunch of lobbiests to me.

The main point is, that todays people are more in tuned to the enviroment. As a result , you get alot of different ideas on whats right and whats wrong for the enviroment.

There has to be a balance of the economy and nature in hand before you just go cutting the heads off major industries.

Everyone was attacking the president over lost jobs. But everyone knows the . COMS fell out favor prior to his taking the white house in 2000.
We were already in this so called recession that everones whining about. If he were to hold that current EPA standard, many of our chemical industries would already be gone for ever.

When you make laws regarding EPA standards, there need to be a certain grace period. The laws Bush struck down were done so for that reason.

[firstmatefluff]

Perhaps neither of you care to hear this, but first off, we put mercury in our waters long before China even began, and the vast majority of our mercury here is still homegrown.

As far as respected scientists, the Bush administration has a long and "distinguished" record of screening scientists beforehand to "pack" their panels, and also canning those who do not agree........there is a reason why so many Nobel winners and general scientists have signed onto several open letters published in the Wall Street Journal and elsewhere complaining about the President's disregard (or selectivity at best) for scientific data and his tendency to favor ideology over hard research and facts.

I am a scientist, beleive me, very few actual scientists are voting for Bush, for these very reasons......

[firstmatefluff]

The standards Bush was handed were from Radicals?

The wild and crazy bunch over at the National Institutes of Health, or those crazy punks the Environmental Protection Agency hires?

The new standards Bush decided to scrap (since we as public taxpayers don't line his pockets as well as Ken Lay and Big Industry) were based on valid scientific studies, and the (I admit, somewhat radical and crazy) assumption that we might try to do everything possible to protect our waterways and unborn children, who are phenomenally sensitive to mercury.

By the way, there's another interesting thing about Bush, he's anti-abortion, but apparently his concern ends at the life of the fetus, not protecting its health. Of course, everyone knows, a fetus can't write a $5,000 check, or set up a PAC for George.......

Bottom line is, what qualifications do you claim to bring to the table that let you view the old standards as a farce--I got a PhD from a Toxicology department, worked in a cancer lab, worked with a guy who studied heavy metal disposition and toxicology, and have written both scientific papers and grants which received Federal Funding.......I have some experience analyzing data, and the stuff from elsewhere is much more sound than the stuff Dubya selects from his camp.

[Orest]

http://www.alternet.org/story/19683/

The trading of pollution rights. It saves money, what about just cleaning up the air and the environment. It all boils down to the almighty dollar.

[firstmatefluff]

Orest, you are right--there was a plan for a 90% reduction in mercury, everywhere, within 5 or 10 years (not sure which, this early in the AM). Bush scrapped it in favor of a 70% reduction, over 30 years--three times as long, and three times as much pollution still left over--good to see the Prez. is supposed to be protecting us from terrorists, he sure as He#l isn't protecting us from pollutants and the Industry he whores for.

As far as the caps, the problem there was mentioned that depending on the area weather patterns, 80-90% of the pollution may fall within a few hundred miles of a facility. That means plants that purchase credits won't have to clean up at all, and area towns, streams, and lakes will see virtually no benefit. I know its crazy, but maybe we should try to clean up ALL the waterways, and actually try HARD...of course, I don't know that Cheney's energy task force would support that, but maybe if it had some scientists and public advocates, instead of CEOs and lobbyists :(

[reddog1]

Firstmate,
Point taken the almighty dollar rules again. The amount of money that it costs to retrofit plants with mercury reducing equipment is more than the industry wants to spend. The cost would just be passed on to the consumer anyway and I am sure people would not be too happy.

I just have one thing to say. Go nuclear. No emissions and considerable more efficient.

[jay b]

Matey, you sound strikingly similar to most of the so-called JFK supporters, so quick to point out the faults of our current POTUS but the answer to all the "problems" is missing as usual.

What is Kerry's stance on the issue and will Mr. flip-flop stick with it or mearly change his mind in a couple years as he seems to do with every other issue. I understand your concerns about the pollution issue but that is just one item on a large list of things to consider when choosing a candidate, which BTW there is realisticly only one other choice, and I'd never vote for him for too many reasons to discuss here.

So even though "Dubya" may not be the best Environmental candidate he'll still get my vote.

[firstmatefluff]

jay b., I understand your lack of enthusiasm for Kerry, but I find it difficult to imagine him being worse for the environment than Bush, especially ina second term where george didn't have to worry about re-election.

I also agree about there being lots of issues, but admittedly, lots of folks vote primarily on the gun issue, and if that is because they consider themselves sportsmen, I just wondered how they reconcile themselves with george and his environmental record.

Lastly, you are right, there are lots of issues. I disagree with the prez. about the Iraq war, stem-cell research, his tendency to favor corporate interests over actual voters, his blind and arrogant stupidity.......I am not just basing my vote for Kerry on the environment, but it is a concern, for myself and everyone else who fishes.

Maybe, if I was rich, I'd vote for George--the very rich are the only ones he really tries to represent anyway
:mad:

[reddog1]

I am voting for Bush primarily because he is a strong and decisive leader. Two qualities that Kerry lacks considerably.
On the rich subject, Bush gave more back to low income people than people give him credit for and home ownership is at an all time high.

[pensfan]

I would never refer to " dubya" as decisive. I'd be willing to bet his wife lays out his clothes for him. I think it's pretty obvious that Uncle Dick is runnin the show.

[firstmatefluff]

I gotta agree with Pensfan--Cheney may be strong and decisive (arrogant and pig-headed is more my take), but I think george can barely spell either, and lets his "smart guys" run the show for him......he looks like a deer in headlights when somwone asks him a difficult or critical and apparently unanticipated question.

Flat out, I think george is a moron and Cheney (who is slightly smarter, but blinded anyway by ideology and greed and arrogance) runs the show for him. Neither will get my vote, and I strongly disagree that dubya has made our country any safer--so far, Bin Laden killed 3,000 Americans at the Trade Center and george killed over 1,000, so 1/3 as many, in Iraq for no legitimate reason--at least Bin Laden was supposed to be a danger to us--george was just stupid and convinced he could "finish his daddy's war".

[shaggy]

And to quote another poster..."but I think george can barely spell either, and lets his "smart guys" run the show for him......he looks like a deer in headlights when somwone"

Let's face facts, for the most, the media is pro democrats and anti republican, thus, little to no bad comments about Kerry/Edwards (and Edwards is one of the many, in medical litigation and malpractice to make his riches, while driving up the cost of healthcare and malpractice insurance (which many democrats feel, medical insurance is a right, and if one cannot afford, other citizens of the US will "take care of them". Also, how many Americans were killed at Pearl Harbor? How many MORE died in the resulting conflict? Why exactly did JFK decide on the Bay of Pigs? How many Americans did Castro kill? How many soldiers died as a result of the BoP? Why were we in South Korea? Don't remember a link to any North Korea terrorism killing Americans? How many soldiers died there, and why are we still there?

If the press is not biased, why did rather and cbs air a fabricated story, as the kerry campaing was losing in the polls? Quick to judge President Bush and other Rebublicans, so quick as to not check facts and tell a TRUE story, but it's amazing how very little, if any negative cbs coverage has been place the democrats way.

I am sorry for the thousand soldiers that have lost their lives to protect yours and my freedom, and it must be working a little, because last I heard, the last terrorist attact (other than in a war zone of Iraq) was in September 2001. Clinton had attacks and gave no response, opening the door for more attacks, and hence attacks right here at home. Trade center the first time, Oklahoma city.. the list goes on. Economy shot as clinton's term ending, irrational exhuberence, corporate scandals and cover ups flourished, hillary's inside trading scandal, whitewater... I don't really know if ther is an honest politician, but I'll pick Bush who has stood his ground through all as to kerry who has pretty much flipped, flopped and if neccessary, flipped back on positions to gain support. Independent, leaning Republican.

[pensfan]

You're absolutely right FirstMate, I truly believe that the only reason we are in Iraq is so that "dubya" can finish what daddy started. We have a thousand dead, for what?!! Granted Sadaam was a pain in the ass, but removing him wasn't worth one american life. This guy didn't have the ability to pose a danger to anyone but his own people. If "dubya" were'nt so damn incompetent we wouldn't be over there, or at the very least, we would have ended this so called war decisively. Instead we run around blindly with no clear mission, while our soldiers sit like ducks in a pond. Every one of our casualties rest squarely on the shoulders of "dubya" and his henchmen. It scares me to think this moron could get re-elected.

[J_Lannon]

Get a grip dude.

You can't shut down the US economy over some BS dreamed up Mercury level report.

You have bashed the president over some pointless EPA proposels that Clinton introduced without a clue...................... as to how to lower these mercury outputs.

Typical Democrats introduce alot of touchy feely laws to apease thier enviromental radicals that supported them.

Typical Democratic leadership has looked at polls over principle for too long.

As far as your earlier post about Bush cramming lobbiest type people to the EPA team. You were were out of bounds.

You sound like the A-Typical """" the worlds ending today""".

Lets hear it for the clean water !!! Im sure we all can enjoy it under Muslim rule.

[HighCap56]

CDog is right. This is the way forum wars get started and I should know better.

My post supported neither candidate, and was benign, but could open another can of worms.

Vote your choice and hopefully the man that wins will do something positive for our country.

[Cdog]

no better way to spread the love than start talking politics..... :rolleyes:

[shaggy]

Sorry pens, but like flyer fans, and other (and I AIn't knocking them) blue collar (but union, well, let's be civil), but unions, and iffin' you from union neck, it's one thing, but the unions (which include broadcast TV and radio, and teachers, and there are some good ones), but jobs go overseas because unions demand toooooo much, teachers tenyour(?), well shouldn't be, that's why the US is behind in many basic skills, but the democrats have been behind unioins, and many (not all) unions have priced themselves overseas. What about corporate corruption, billy's BJ while chit was happenning, the attack on the Navy ship, the OK City bombing, the poor guy that was tossed overboard from a cruise ship (I believe), Trade Center garage bombing, and sooooo much more. At least "W" don't back down, and stands behind his beliefs (not to mention morality, which has been lacking under democrats, JFK cheating on the Mrs., may not have been the beginning, but pro demo press says nothing, the attempt to take the God out of one nation under, spanking children, and forms of discipline that seemed to have worked as I was growing up, is now a crime).

Bottom line is, I am sorry for American casualties (especially from the Trade Centers. and those from other countries), but the soldiers picked their callings, and God Bless them and America, but they should have been intelligent enough to realize, sooner or later they would be called to active duty, and the military AIn't no free ride, and yeah, it's my TAX dollars paying them. And as in this case, since September 2001, there have been no terrorist related deaths on American soil, so yeah, give me a stand by your decision as opposed to a vote for a flip flop, yeah I voted for intervention, but I changed my mind Kerry, and it wasn't Bush that ruined the economy, it was declining through Clinton's last quarter at least, and the Admin under him let alot of corporate coruption go on, and I will say, Bill did teach me (if I smoked cigars) new uses for them, and I'll take this the rest of the way via pm if you want to debate.

Bottom line is government is toooo big, thus costing Americans tooo much money, for people (and I personally know) who do nothing, and thanks to unions and red tape, can't get fired unless they go postal.

Sorry Manny Jake, you being up from Philly and knowing your views (and Eagles won, so don't let me ruin your buzz), but this BS, and fabricating and twisting truths for one's benefits, is total crap. D rather ought to resign, as long as he has been in the biz, he knew better, and a kerry campaign advisor calls the guy but "doesn't discuss" it it pure unadulterated chit, and if this keeps up, I'll go from independent to Republican, just because I am tired of the "twisted truths" against (and yeah, I didn't like Clinton, as he cheated on his wife, whitewater, and her insider trading, and he eventually proved he was too busy) MY president (sh&& Sodamninsane would still be around if gore had one, thank heavens for the idiots who couldn't punch a frickin' chad, and that says all I need to know). I like the fact we have someone with morals in the office, and his wife is a blessing, not to mention a sweetheart, but it is about time to be fair, demos, repubs and indies, and I will tread through not as deep chit, as opposed to voting for a self depicted, been here a bit now get me home, throw "my" medals away (not), bash my fellow soldiers in arms, if they did what he said they did, pretty much guaranteed so did he.

Now, Flea will either kill this thread, or the whole BS board. Or, politics and religion are out of bounds.

[HighCap56]

Now, Flea will either kill this thread, or the whole BS board. Or, politics and religion are out of bounds.

I don't mind censorship that stops arguing and flames, but I do enjoy the General BS as a whole.

At the YStore! Forums (ecommerce support) we had to kill the Politics and Religion threads as some serious rifts flared up on a regular basis on these very two topics.

My .02

[shaggy]

I am for Bs, but politics and sometimes religion go too far beyond (yeah, I belive in God, or a higher being, no facts, just toooo scared not to), but too much political stuff is based on hearsay and non-truths (re: rather), or Bush didn't win, but he is OUR President, or Kerry awarding himself the medals, bottom line is I feel safer now, the economy is not as bad as the press makes out, and that makes me feel okay, at least Pre. Bush is constant, but Kerry just goes the way of the polls or the press (I am for this, oops, now I am for that), and unfortunately that is the real sad part of BS, is that many have a one track mind, believing what they read and or hear, and not using their own cognative thought process to make up their own mind.

Me, after rather and the cbs "news" story, and then admitted, mistake, I am leaning toward making up my own mind. like I haven't already.

[reddog1]

We can argue all night about politics. I didn’t mean to get anything started like this. The bottom line is people are going to believe what they see on tv and hear from others, which is always negative and Democratically oriented, without finding out the true facts. But thats everyone's right is here living in America. Let’s just enjoy fishing and leave the arguing and decisions for the November elections.

[Fish Bait]

“For the third time, environmental advocates have discovered passages in the Bush administration's proposal for regulating mercury pollution from power plants that mirror almost word for word portions of memos written by a law firm representing coal-fired power plants”

For the complete article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A39749-2004Sep21.html

[johnnyleo11]

Why don't you all go fishing and calm down.

[firstmatefluff]

Riiiight. Every time industry has to take something extra on, they wail about how it will ruin them, and yet (perhaps by miracle?) it gets done. Adding seatbelts to every American car, then catalytic converters, and mpg standards, were all supposed to decimate the American auto industry.....Fords are hardly antiques. Earlier scrubbers were likewise supposed to kill power plants, or drive prices through the roof.....neither happened.

Bottom line is, industry is out there to maximize profits, and these technologies cost money (apparently less than buying a prez. and a slew of lobbyists). Companies fight additional expenditures tooth and nail, which is perhaps how they should be. The problem is, somebody (the EPA, in a normal administration) should stand up for people and the environment, and since people vote, the prez. should be more concerned with his constituents than his PACs.

In any event, every time that industry is forced to change, they cry that they can't, and then they do it, and manage to move on. Maybe I just have more faith in American ingenuity than you, but I can see where you might doubt if you consider george a sage and practical leader. ;)

As far as terrorist attacks since 9/11, it wasn't like during Clinton's tenure, or anyone else's for that matter, we were having three a month--even then the attacks came few and far between. I don't know how many attacks were or were not thwarted, but I do know that post-9/11 the whole world felt for us, and george managed to piss away all that goodwill in a few short years. We are now more hated by both allies and enemies than we were before 9/11, and Al Qaeda recruitment is fluorishing. Nearly the entire Arab world views the Iraq invasion as a crusade, and attacks at present or no, george's actions have been the greatest Al Qaeda recruitment tool in their history--his election was like a big ol' Christmas present for Osama; he managed to take a world horrified by Bin Laden's actions and turn them against us instead. Even in Britain, one of our closest allies, a strong majority are against current US direction, bush, and the Iraq war.

Maybe its just me, but I don't see how you can swell another groups ranks and claim it as a victory against them. George has run us to the edge of a cliff, never looking to either side or back, and so far it cost 1,000 kids their lives (and how many kids lost fathers or mothers? how many spouses go home to empty beds?) and 200 billion dollars. What's the US population? Do the math and divide the total cost by the number of US citizens.....how much has the war in Iraq cost you? Would you have chose to pay that much to remove Saddam, knowing he had no Al Qaeda ties or WMDs?

[reddog1]

The link between Saddam and Al Qaeda are still questionable. Al Qaeda recieved millions from somewhere to fund their operations. It is no wonder that the rest of the world specifically France and Russia are upset at the US. We open the Oil for Food scandel and showed the amount of bribes top French and Russain leaders were recieving from Saddam to look the other way while he murdered people in his country.

[Orest]

Originally Posted by shaggy
Now, Flea will either kill this thread, or the whole BS board. Or, politics and religion are out of bounds.

There is no reason.

We are all adults here, just respect others opinion and do not insult them. Just like fishing on the surf, pier or boat respect their space and every body will get along.

We all get our information from different sources.

Depends on what network you watch, which paper / magazine you read.

And you have to remember you can't change a persons beliefs, just respect them; and why would you want to in the first place, their beliefs are what makes her/him different.


My 5¢

[Talapia]

Nuff on politics before someone gets
mad at someone else! Already seen
way too much cussin on this thread
already. Besides does anybody really
think that they will change anybody
else's mind? :rolleyes:

Now...What about them Redskins!
(the last game does not count! :p )

[Orest]

You keep pumping up those Redskins and there will be some cussing. :eek: :D :D

So if the last game doesn't count, niether will the next one on MNF when they lose. :)

[Talapia]

:cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:
I am keeping my eye on you Orest!
:cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:

[Hat80]

I looked into my crystal ball and got a preview of next Monday nights game. Looked like the same old Dallas Washington game. When we beat you in Washington the games are so much sweeter! See ya on Mon sucka, GO DALLAS! :D.....Tightlines

http://www.sveinsolem.no/dokumentene/5/6/wounded.jpg

[Orest]

More than NSA.

You keep all but 1 set of your eyes on the score board; the other set will be looking for that big box of tissue. :D :D

[jcreamer]

Talking about a person's favourite team is a good way to get a discussion going. Personally I am a faithful bears fan and the only difference is:

You say how much did they win or lose by?
I ask how bad...
Seriously I am looking for some good football games this year. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Orest]

A good win over the Packers.

[jcreamer]

Hat,

I am a bears fan, wife is a die hard Dallas fan, and the rest of our family are die hard Redskins fans. Looks like I will be referee at the upcoming game. :D

[Talapia]

jcreamer,

I can relate. My wife is a Dallas fan.
BUT there are rules in the house.
If the Redskins win, I can jump
around, talk smack, etc, etc. If Dallas
wins, she knows that no comments
are allowed!!! :D :D :D
Yeah, I am a big baby. I admit it!

[shaggy]

Look at how this thread started "Here's something I don't necessarily understand, and if anyone has input (reasonable and intelligent, rather than just name-calling) I'd love to hear it: This board is for fishermen. Presumably, fishermen sometimes eat what they catch, or would at least like to have the option....

Now, as concerned fishermen, how many of you plan to support "Dubya,"

Now, when (God rest his soul) Louis Goldtein was running, voted for hem every time, same thing with William Donald, but when a thread starts out rather than just name-calling, and in the next paragraph, pretty much "name calling", except the right one, George "W", or simply the President,one wears his or her heart on their sleeve. I stand by my statements that many more soldiers were killed after Pearl Harbor than at Pearl Harbor (and most likely more than less than three to one), I stand by my statement that more soldiers were killed in the Korean War, than the North Koreans killed prior to, I stand behind my statement that more soldiers were killed during Viet Nam, than the North Vietnamese(?) killed here (and thank you Viet Nam Vets, you get too little credit, many were DRAFTED, didn't sign up for this "FREE RIDE" at taxpayers expense, and thanks to the "we will not go ALL out government of the times, got way to little thanks and respect for what they did" win or lose. What was WWI, Hungary/Austria, why the heck were we there, and I still haven't received an answer on how many Amricans Castro killed before Kennedy ordered the Bay of Pigs. Blacks were enslaved in the South, and partly responsible for the Civil War. How many Norhtern Americans, or Southern Americans did the Blacks kill, the thing was, some realized the unjust treatment and did something about it, thus, how many AMERICANS were killed during the Civil War vs. the numbers killed?

You know, the price of freedom AIn't FREE, and God bless everyone who has the military life as their calling, and their families, but don't give me the crap, that it AIn't suppose to happen, I AIn't on no free ride, and I tried to get in, but due to sticking heart valve, bad knee and in 1983, an inch and a half or so too short for flight school, it didn't work out.

Only war that may have seemed to have made sense was the Revolutionary, we were fighting for OUR freedom, but 911 but that right back home and if not AL Queda, or it's monetary support, we were also once unjustly treated, and we fought, and we won.

Now, I'll shut up.

[Hat80]

Hope this finds you doing well. ;) Sounds like you get the good job. Be sure and get a big box of yellow flags, you'll need them with the skins in a game! :eek:

Talked to a few people in NB. They are all moving out of town, John Anderson is one of them. :( It's a shame to lose such a historical town! The place will never be the same. :mad:....Tightlines

[Hat80]

I got your number and think the wife needs a call. It's time for the rules to change! :D Look at the bright side. You'll sleep good on Mon night with all that silence at home. :eek:....Tightlines

[Talapia]

See that is the difference between
Redskins and Dallas fans. For us
we live and die with our team. A loss
is just too painful to talk about.
Meanwhile the bandwagon Dallas fans can
loose and just move on like nothing
happened...Why? Because they
are not TRUE fans. Go Burgandy and Gold!
Isn't it funny how most Dallas fans
have never lived anywhere near
Texas? ;)

[firstmatefluff]

Shaggy,

Of course its always a possibility that US troops might be sent somewhere....the assumption is they would be sent to protect us (no WMDs or Al Qaeda links in Iraq, remember--even dubya states as much, albeit grudgingly and rarely), not just sent out as cannon fodde on a fool's errand by a fool who gets to stay out of the thick of it, sent out there by ideology and stubborn resolution rather than facts on the ground.

As far as Pearl Harbor, etc. you are undoubtedly correct, more were killed after, but your analogy is more than a bit thin--we went into WWII in part because Germany and Japan were attempting to take over other nations. Likewise in WWI. The first Gulf War, for that matter. That was the difference--we were there for a reason, not to finish "daddy's business".

Incidentally, as far as wearing anything on my sleeve, I meant I was interested in hearing how fishermen reconcile themselves with george's record without things degenerating into a shouting match. Since I doubt george reads this forum (or has dick read it to him), I doubt I offended him. If you are interested, by the way, in anything "balanced", here's an article on george's own flip-flops, which aren't exactly small either:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=679&e=16&u=/usatoday/pinflipfloptagonbush

[can't fish today]

Oh yea.....

http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/us/sp/v/nfl/teams/1/80x60/was.gif

[J_Lannon]

Those corps create alot of jobs. And also contribute to SCIENTIFIC research through grants and charity. YES they are out for a profit, SO ARE YOU, when you go to work everyday dude. WE all want to make money in order to buy the things we NEED OR WANT ! The more money I make, the more comfortable my life is.

There have been companies out there that have raped the landscape or stole huge amounts of money.....WE ALL KNOW THAT. They should be punished. I agree.

But the declarations in your earlier posts sound like a MIKE MOORE propaganda lecture. You spouted off alot of unfounded, or "debatable at best" comments regarding the BUSH theory of how we engage cleaning up MERCURY pollution.

I have no idea how many smoke stacks it take to kill off the Trout population in Maine or the amount it takes to kill off Bluefish here in Va Beach. I leave that up to more learned people.

EVEN THE GENEVA meetings have found that its almost impossible to detect the difference between NATURAL mercury and MAN MADE mercury pollution. And you being a SCIENTIST should know what those meetings are about.

Bush took alot of the people from the GENEVA meetings and placed them in a think tank ( sort to speak). Without regards to thier political leanings . That was far more NEUTRAL than Clinton and GORES hand picked radicals.

Since you have leaned this post towards politics in the initial post. Lets hear what your potential candidate proposes, And his or her Miracle on EARTH IN 4 YEARS.

[J_Lannon]

Shaggy,

Of course its always a possibility that US troops might be sent somewhere....the assumption is they would be sent to protect us (no WMDs or Al Qaeda links in Iraq, remember--even dubya states as much, albeit grudgingly and rarely), not just sent out as cannon fodde on a fool's errand by a fool who gets to stay out of the thick of it, sent out there by ideology and stubborn resolution rather than facts on the ground.

As far as Pearl Harbor, etc. you are undoubtedly correct, more were killed after, but your analogy is more than a bit thin--we went into WWII in part because Germany and Japan were attempting to take over other nations. Likewise in WWI. The first Gulf War, for that matter. That was the difference--we were there for a reason, not to finish "daddy's business".

Incidentally, as far as wearing anything on my sleeve, I meant I was interested in hearing how fishermen reconcile themselves with george's record without things degenerating into a shouting match. Since I doubt george reads this forum (or has dick read it to him), I doubt I offended him. If you are interested, by the way, in anything "balanced", here's an article on george's own flip-flops, which aren't exactly small either:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=679&e=16&u=/usatoday/pinflipfloptagonbush



USA TODAY LOL the 3rd most Democratic rag in AMERICA.

[YOUNGSTER]

you, absolutely, have my vote!!!!

[firstmatefluff]

So, you gonna read it or not? Regardless of the newspaper's supposed party affiliation, all the things mentioned there are still true.......you want to discouunt the message because of your distaste for the messenger?

As far as natural vs man-made mercury, nobody would be able to tell--they're the same element, and cycle through aquatic ecosystems in the samer manner. The problem is, we put lots of mercury in places it wasn't before. And the issue at any of our current mercury levels was never how much Hg to kill all the fish in a given body of water, it was "how much Hg in fish before it leads to a statistically significant increase in Hg-related birth defects in children." This calls for extrapolation, of course, but my preference is to err on the side of caution.....maybe you might be kind enough to explain the importance of industrial profits to a mother who gives birth to a child w/ neurological defecits, and why her child's retardation is just "part of the grand scheme of things".

Bottom line, corporations are supposed to make money, I never said they were not. My point was, they always cry "poor bleeding me" when a law is on the verge of passing, and tell everyone they can't do it, and then, by miracle perhaps, industry finds a way to adapt the technology and move along--it worked in the past with seatbelts, catalytic converters, and older-model scrubbers--even though all of these were supposed to kill their industries if they became mandatory. I therefore am a wee bit skeptical when industry says they can't bear such a responsibility, as they always have in the past.

[shaggy]

Firsty, okay, WMDs and chemical weapons were made up by the President, to win "Daddy's" war, but look back at history and the PRECEADING administrarion, and, maybe I dreamed it up, but, Clinton and HIS administration, not to mention the UN, must have thought (and if not mistaken), said there was WMDs and chemical weapons, and tried for HOW LONG to get UN inspectors there. Now you bring up this and I quote:

"So, you gonna read it or not? Regardless of the newspaper's supposed party affiliation, all the things mentioned there are still true.......you want to discouunt the message because of your distaste for the messenger?"

Now, if d rather can get away with to say the least, falaies in his report, and at the most, flat out fabricated lies, then what part of the Pro-demcratic press is the truth? How do YOU know all things metioned were true? And if ( and yeah, I need spell check), but look at some of your posts........., who's medals did kerry toss? How much money did edwards make suin doctors and hospitals? So, guys like him can increase the costs to hospitals and doctors, and thus increase medical care, and can flat out say I, me, shaggy, must pay for what you can't afford. I pay mine you pay yours, cap limits, and if a frivalous lawsuit is filed, pay double what you and your ambulance chaser is asking for.

Oh yeah, what part of what rather said (not to mention other pro democrat press, pretty much all), we didn't check the facts, we sat on the story until k and e were behind, and I am sorry. get real, read between the lines, and realize probably 90% of the news sources are pro democrat. The press will slant the picture toward their leaning, hence the cbs and d rather lies and fabrications. kerry, though he served, is a "hero in his own mind" and backstabbed and badmouthed the real heroes.

Now, do you really think it is that hard to poke a chad all of the way through?

[J_Lannon]

It wouldn't be so bad on the Industries if leaders like Clinton......... and Gore for that matter, didn't put a unrealistic deadline on meeting the pollution levels proposed by them. The criteria they were using was most definately debatable at best. The technology required hasn't been achieved yet by any company any where in the world to reduce that amount of pollution and not kill off the world economy.

The proposed deadlines would have ruined the US economically and other countries that played fair under the so called accord. 3rd world countries ....Ahmmmmf ( Mexico) were exempt from the rules of the accord for 30 years?
How in the hell were we supposed to compete?


You have to give time for these changes. 20 years in the life of Gov't and Industry is just a heartbeat compared to how technology adavances. We have rapidly developed circuitry, but have been slow on the anti pollution technology. And that hasn't been for the lack of money. There are companies out there trying to get ahead of the power curve on this issue. They know they could make a buck.

Im a realist, Im not a scientist, I just know what I can see and feel. But i see us coming a long way from the 50's and 60's when rivers actually caught on fire. And YES....rivers were actually burning back then. The Androscoggin River that flows through my home town in Rumford Me. was so polluted at one time from paper mills, that it was in the top 50 in the UNITED STATES as the most unhealthy rivers Now people can eat 2-3 fish a month out of it. Thats not great , but it shows progress. And its been done by hard work on both the Gov't's part and corp america.

Its funny how the hard line tree huggers want all this to happen at once, but when another million jobs are lost, they wanna know WHY?

People are to fast at pointing fingers and screaming at who ever is at the helm. Mostly they are just too F_____G lazy to do some research, or get involved with finding civil ways to over come the issues at hand.

I believe in the OLD PRACTICAL SYSTEM, And that is sticking with what works at the time until some thing tested and proven can come along that will benefit everyone.

This will be my last response Fluff, I hope you see where I am coming from.

Catch alot of fish.

[firstmatefluff]

Lannon,

I do see where you are coming from, although I totally disagree. In the end, we're going to have to agree to disagree, I suppose, as neither will change the other's minds--I truly believe we are less safe w/ george running the show, you believe we are more safe. I take it we will be cancelling one another out at the polls this year.

And I am afraid, I still believe industry can do the reductions, as I have said, they always managed to before. Sometimes it takes a swift kick in the a##, usually in the form of a law, to get things going.

Mark

[Talapia]

Just some basic facts as I see them:

fact: Kerry did not run away from Vietnam
service. He faced it like a man and did
his duty. The current administration
does not have the right to say didly
about Kerry's war record, because
their leader avoided that "conflict",
and their second-in-command avoided
that "conflict". They had a ball with
Clinton for avoiding the war, so turn-about
is fair play. As far as medals go,
that whole thing is a joke, if you were
to examine everybody who got a medal
of honor you would see that it is and
was as much a political process as
anything else. It is a toss of the dice.
Medals do not make someone and they
do not lessen anyone. If Kerry did not
go to Vietnam, he would have had no
right to protest the war. But he did.
And he served honorably.

Fact: Not only was there not any evidence
of WMD but the current administration
went out of their way to create the false
information that they did have. The intel
agencies consistently said that there was
not enough credible evidence, so Rumsfeld
decided to make up his own. He created
his own little "intel" sweatshop to go
over data which had already been
examined to see if every other "intel"
organization had missed something.

Fact: The current administration has left
the military in a dire situation. They have
and are continuing to cut personnel (Air
Force) while at the same time increasing
world-wide deployments. They state
that they do not need more people while
continuing to abuse the Reserve and Guard
troops by sending them out deployment
after deployment. They are not active
duty forces, that is not what they were
designed for. The long term implications
of their misuse is going to have a severe
effect on the ability to recruit and keep
quality folks.

[firstmatefluff]

Here's something to consider.....looking below, maybe Republicans don't flip-flop because they instead simply pretend to have it both ways.....(particularly relevant to this thread is in bold)
>-> > Tough Being a Republican
> > >
> It is very tough to be a Republican in 2004, because somehow, you have to believe concurrently that:
> > >
> 1. Jesus loves you, but shares your deep hatred of homosexuals and Hillary Clinton.
> > >
> 2. The United States should get out of the United Nations, but our highest national priority is enforcing U. N. resolutions against Iraq.
> > >
> 3 . "Standing Tall for America" means firing your workers and moving their jobs to India.
> > >
> 4. A woman can't be trusted with decisions about her own body, but multi-national corporations can make decisions affecting all humankind without regulation.
> > >
> 5. Being a drug addict is a moral failing and a crime, unless you're a conservative radio host. Then it's an illness and you need our prayers for your recovery.
> > >
> 6. The best way to improve military morale is to praise the troops in speeches, while slashing veterans' benefits and combat pay.
> > >
> 7. Group sex and drug use are degenerate sins, unless you someday run for governor of California as a Republican.
> > >
> 8. If condoms are kept out of schools, adolescents won't have sex.
> > >
> 9. A good way to fight terrorism is to belittle our long-time allies, but then demand their cooperation and money. > > >
> 10. HMOs and insurance companies make profits and have the interest of the public at heart.
> > >
> 11. Providing health care to all Iraqis is sound policy. Providing health care to all Americans is socialism.
> > >
> 12. Global warming and tobacco's link to cancer are junk science, but creationism should be taught in schools. > > >
> 13. It is okay that the Bush family's "Carlisle Group" has done millions of dollars of business with the Bin Laden family.
> > >
> 14. A president lying about an extramarital affair is an impeachable offense.
A president lying about WMD existence is solid defense policy in a War against Terrorism.
> > >
> 15. Government should limit itself to the powers named in the Constitution and promote states' rights, but the Constitution
> should ban gay marriages.
> > >
> 16. The public has a right to know about Hillary's cattle trades, but George Bush's Harken Oil stock trade should be sealed in his Daddy's library, and is none of our business.
> > >
> 17. Trade with Cuba is wrong because the country is communist, but trade with China and Vietnam is vital to a "spirit of international harmony."
> > >
18. You are a conservative, but it is OK to spend like there is no tomorrow and run up deficits that your grandchildren will have to pay, while at the same refunding as much tax money as possible to rich people who do not need it.
> > >
This duality can take a toll on a healthy mind, so if a friend of
yours has been acting a bit dazed and confused lately, be nice: he
she may a Republican!

[firstmatefluff]

Here's one other thing, and lest some just write me off as a liberal, I did in fact vote for Bush Sr.:

Subject: Bush Sr. had it right
> >
> >
In his memoirs, "A World Transformed," written five years ago, George Bush Sr. wrote the following to explain why he didn't go after Saddam Hussein at the end of the Gulf War.
> > >
> > >
"Trying to eliminate Saddam...would have incurred incalculable human and political costs. Apprehending him was probably impossible.... We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq....There was no viable "exit strategy" we could see, violating another of our principles.

Furthermore, we had been consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post-Cold War world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the United Nations' mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression that we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the United States could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land."
> > >
> > >If only his son could read. :(
>

[Shoebag22]

I'm sure that I am just rehashing old facts but...

Why is W praised for having the same exact beliefs, ideas and thoughts that he had 4 years ago? When I was a kid I used to believe that the moon followed me around everywhere that I went.

I don't understand how W can be pro-life, yet he sent over 100 prisoners to the electric chair while in texas...

Iraq had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11... we terrorized them by attacking.

Don't even begin to say that the media is siding with Kerry... Bush has so many ties to clear channel that it amazing that we even see kerry ads.

You ever notice that we never see any pictures of the innocent casualties of this war? If you go to England, you see a far more accurate description of the war. What we in america see is a romanticized version.

http://www.udecide.org/downloads/YouDecide-Overview.pdf

[Talapia]

Shoebag22,

I basically throw out anything that
the europeans have to say on
defense. Their idea of defense is to
give in, and in, and in, until they
have given everything away.
I may not agree with the current
administrations actions, but there
is no way that I could ever side
with those spineless nations
who just cannot learn any lessons
from WWII. (UK not included, Tony
Blair gets huge props for having a
backbone.)

[shaggy]

Talapia,

Show FACTS that kerry did serve "honerably", and how much of his tour he completed before wanting to go home, and then bad mouth outher Viet Nam Vets.

Tell me why clinton, his administration and the UN were all trying in vain to get into Iraq to search for WMDs and chemical weapons, if Presidaent Bush, made them up to finish "daddy's job", and why did sodamn, thwart almost every attempt to reach certain areas.

Since Bush got a "cushy job" in the Guard, and they and reservist are not there for what I thought they were there for, what you are saying is the Guard and the Reserves are a waste of my, and other taxpayers monies, and for the record, no proof (ask dan rather) that Bush got guard duty by favors from others, or did not comlete as suppose).

Fact clinton and UN wanted into Iraq to search for said such weapons, fact, WTC 1 was under clinton, and other terrorist activities including OK City bombing while he was in charge, WACO, figure what seven or eight attacks at a minimum during his I'm busy with monica tenior?

Fact, economy and the markets were in the declining stage toward the end of the clinton admin, so, it can't be Bush's fault, he may just be trying to pick up the pieces.

FLUFFY

1)Read the bible, narriage, as I read is between man and woman. I have no problem with same sex relationships, just the fact that under law, and yes religously, that is how it was is and hopefully will ever be, that marriage remains between man and woman.

2)Get out of the UN and we did go against the UN.

3)Regulations increase production costs for companies, and to meet many, you need labor. Labor demands on corporate America have driven up wages, benefits and others, thus,outpricing American made products. Jack Welch former GE, stated in the early ninties, that as things are going, America must become a more service oriented corporate place annd manufacturing will move overseas, where production costs are less, making American manufactured goods, non-economical.


4)Women do have control, even when it comes to the unborn child of a wanna be father, go figure.

5)what happen to gore's son with some mary jane and driving at night with no headlights?

6)my benefit costs increase every year as they should, things cost more most years, a dollar today is worth more than a dollar a year from now.

7)Morality? HA, Kennedy, Clinton, guys in the northeast who are Governors, having extra marital affairs on their wives, with men. It wasn't the republicans who made spanking your child a crime, or taking God out of the pledge, even though God was what this country was founded on, escape from religious persecution if not mistaken, but God on currency, and god damn, are more than appropriate in American society, but, don't discipline your child by spanking, you can get into trouble, let them go wild, and we will take care of the problem.

8)see 7, spanking your child can be punishible

9)allies, many, only when they need something from America.

10)if it wasn't for potential profits, there would be no insurance companies. Florida hurricanes will put a hurting there, but the companies bet on little happening. Now when you buy life insurance, and I assume you have some, you are betting you will die.

11)I pay for mine, you pay for yours.

Too many repeats, another WMD reference, covered by the UN inspectors trying to see certain sites.

Biased press or not, CBS nationally aired a program strewn with lies, and unconfirmed "facts" and just another reason I don't believe much of what I read or hear, and read between the lines. Now I must say cbs new commercial stating "unbiased coverage from both sides" mad my sides hurt, and rather should just retire in shame.

Ask bill, talk is cheap, ask george action may hurt.

Freedom AIn't free, and if you don't want the rsik, don't enlist.

[shaggy]

Also, parts of kerry's 7 steps

go after osama bin ladin, guess that is without the military, and with the UN's permission

Help Muslim countries become democracies

stop terrorst funding

homeland security

Sounds pretty much what is going on, except the first, like to see him do it without the military, and with the UN's blessing.

[Talapia]

shaggy,

Show FACTS that kerry did serve "honerably", and how much of his tour he completed before wanting to go home, and then bad mouth outher Viet Nam Vets.

So now you are saying that a vietnam vet
with an honorable discharge has to prove
that he served honorably? That's an
incredible statement. No, I am afraid
that if someone wants to question
something like that, the burden of proof
is on them.

The reason that Clinton and all of "them"
were trying to get into Iraq to search
for chemical weapons is that he had
chemical weapons then and he used them.
Yes, he had them and used them. Has
anybody ever said that he hasn't? Still
do not know what that has to do with
the current administration creating it's
own "intel".

what you are saying is the Guard and the Reserves are a waste of my, and other taxpayers monies, and for the record, no proof (ask dan rather) that Bush got guard duty by favors from others, or did not comlete as suppose).

OK....do not know where you got that
from? This is what I said:

Fact: The current administration
has left the military in a dire situation.
They have and are continuing to cut
personnel (Air Force) while at the same
time increasing world-wide deployments.
They state that they do not need more
people while continuing to abuse the Reserve and Guard troops by sending them out deployment after deployment. They are not active duty forces, that is not what they were
designed for. The long term implications
of their misuse is going to have a severe
effect on the ability to recruit and keep
quality folks.

Yeah, you got me there! ??????

Freedom AIn't free, and if you don't want the rsik, don't enlist.

Not sure where this statement is coming
from. But I can tell you that after
14 years of military service the LAST
people who want to go war are military
folks. But we suck it up and do what
we are told to do. Active, Guard and
Reserves. Again, if you have been in
the military then you have a right to
speak about what military personnel
should or should not feel, do, or not
want to do, if not well....

On a side note, just want you to know
that to me this is just a healthy
discussion. Nothing personnal. ;)

Outa here, Talapia...

[shaggy]

Take discussions about religion and politcs seriously, then you AIn't got no friends, so no nothing personal, just seems fun.
As to my kerry comments, not questioning, just wondering :how can you serve honerably, then stab your troups in the back like he did. Me personally, I wouldn't have wanted a day in that hell, but seemed his time was short but, well, let's just say well rewarded.

As to my quote about the reservists and guard, seems (maybe not you) but was said Bush's such a cushy job, via favors.

As to military, when I graduated from college tried to sign up (officer training and flight school), but physical said, bad knee, sticking heart valve, and pre women requirement, a 1/4" too short to fly. I tried but I cou...(they wouldn't let me) do it.

If it means anything though, Dad was in the Army during the Korean War, but heck yeah....

GO NAVY!

[Talapia]

Shaggy,

Do not get me wrong, I aint
exactly crazy about eithor
candidate to be honest. I really
liked Mcain and am still mad at
the way that Bush attacked him
in the primaries four years ago.

Yeah, Kerry did some messed up
things after the war and frankly
he seems like a weak leader to me.

I probably prefer bush as pres
but I cannot stomach his inner
circle.

[Manayunk Jake]

Sorry Manny Jake, you being up from Philly and knowing your views (and Eagles won, so don't let me ruin your buzz), but this BS, and fabricating and twisting truths for one's benefits, is total crap.

Greetings (I think) Shaggy!

How did my name get dragged into this? Do you think I'm posting here under another name?

[shaggy]

MJ,

Just goes back to a previous discussion there was, and we had opposing views on unions. I made a statement in the thread you referenced about them, and though not very "Pro Union", some are needed, just think many abuse the system. So, my statement was just an attempt to hope you don't hold this specific personal view against me. :)

[Manayunk Jake]

Greetings Shaggy!

No sweat! Just remember -- a lot of good people in the labor movement were imprisoned and/or executed for such radical un-American ideas as the 40 hour work week, employer health plans, overtime, and paid vacations. Heck, we even came up with Labor Day so guys like us would know when to expect the fishing to improve!

Did you fish at AI during the storm?

[Manayunk Jake]

(Sorry old boy, couldn't resist this one!)

Dan Rather, CBS News Anchor

*given documents he thought were true
*failed to thoroughly investigate the facts
*reported documents to the American people as true to make his case
*when confronted with the facts, apologized and launched an investigation
*number of Americans dead: 0
*should be fired as CBS News Anchor




George W. Bush, President of the United States

*given documents he thought were true
*failed to thoroughly investigate the facts
*reported documents to the American people as true to make his case
*when confronted with the facts, continued to report untruth and stonewalled an investigation
*number of Americans dead: 1100
*should be given four more years as President of the United States

(shamelessly borrowed from an un-named source on the internet.)

[TXmarine]

personally, being a marine mself i would prefer dubya in the white house for another term. he may not be the smartest man, but i can tell you this. He takes care of his troops. true Kerry went to Vietnam just to come back and throw his metals away and become a damn hippie. Kerry is anti-war and the way i see it is if your anti war your anti military. i personally have served in iraq and am going again in a few months(that means crunch time on fishing).

[Big Rad]

Antiwar does not mean antimilitary. Every branch of the service is represented by my brothers and sister. I am the only one who isn't and never was in the military. They all are anti-war! :cool: They all serve and or served with honor and dignity. In this day and age the military is being given a chance to at least win...back in the Nam days....Politics determined the duration......A man has the right to change his mind.........Kerry went and did his time....decided he didn't like it and tried to bring an end through the protest venue.....That man's choice.....

Big ups to you for your PATRIOTISM!!

[J_Lannon]

Yeah...............Kerry came back and told the American people that " We killed , raped, torched, stole, beheaded etc. He stabbed every honorable veteran in the eye with his freaking lies. Yeah...........he said this while still being on active duty. But family connections helped him weasle out of any repercussions from his BS!

Yeah Bush sent us to IRAQ..............Ok.....we lost 1000 plus servicemen and women. Thats the price of war. Bush has us over there to fight them over there. And that sure beats having our kids blown up in a Wal-Mart parking lot.

If any one of those dead service people could talk to you, they would say the same. That.......if their passing saved one american child..........then hell yeah !!!!!! It was worth the cost. Thats the way it is in the military. I know this to be true.............I served 20 years and lived it.

Personally, I could give a rats ass, about Kerry's vietnam experience or Bush's gaurd duty.

But at least Bush takes care of the troops, And in 20 years I served...........the Dems gutted us to the point we had to rape other ships for parts to get ours underway. Carter raped the military and the CIA. Clinton raped the military and the CIA.

[firstmatefluff]

The fundamental issue with your above argument is the 1000 kids killed in Iraq weren't fighting Al Qaeda. Saddam was without question a dog-turd, but he wasn't coming to the US, and neither were Iraqis. The soldiers killed in Afghanistan died protecting us; those killed in Iraq died for george's arrogance and a family vendetta. No threat to us there, and they knew it, that's why they had to do so much cherry-picking, or if they didn't know it, they were damnably foolish for deciding theyt would hand-pick whatever suited their case and totally ignore the assessments of seasoned intelligence professionals in favor of their own judgements.

[pensfan]

Amen, Firstmate

[Shoebag22]

we need to realize as a country... or at least as a board that going after bin laden was the right move... but somewhere along the way we shifted everything to Iraq... and it was done so well that at one point about 75% of americans believed that iraq had something to do with 9/11.
I have yet to hear a rational reason as to why we are in Iraq right now...

Korea has parades for their nukes... you don't see us do a damn thing about it...

China still has some of the worst human rights, but we just turn the other cheek...

Everyone is so concerned about what happened in the '60s... Bush is fucking up right now... our economy, education, health care... plus he's killed or injured over 8000 of our soldiers

[shaggy]

MJ, no AI during that stuff, guess I am getting too old for such youthful adventures. :eek:

TX marine, all I can say to you is, thank you and stay safe. :cool:

Shoebag, things shifted toward Iraq during the Clinton administration, thus the thwarted attempts upon UN inspectors. We all know they had and or have something, but let's not argue. The economy (as predicted by the stock markets), were already heading to the crapper, thus the end of irrrational exhuberence, and with corporate America having to answer to the owners of companies (shareholders), it is up to them to maximize profits, thus jobs go overseas or across boarders, Jack Welch of GE said that (in the early to mid 90's) manufacturing jobs are headed elsewhere, and AMerica must now be come focused on a service environment. Unfortunately, much servicing can be accomplished overseas, and I am not pointing a finger, just stating, that in countries like India, servicing "customers" is more cost effective (read profitable), and America is about the bottom line. Now, as income decreases, jobs losts, less taxes for government, hence "cost cutting" including health care. Personally my insurance has been going up much more than theirs has been going down, thus my need to keep more of my money.

Also, since the 4,000 plus people who died in the Trade Center debacle, yes about 1,000 soldiers have died, and maybe cost of freedom or safety, but how many attacks have been placed upon American soil since the President took his stand?

Sorry if calloused, but they enlisted or joined the Guards, and that is still part of what my taxes pay for, my freedom and feeling of safety.

Also, it if not mistaken has been reported, Kerry threw other's medals "away", not his. Real symbolic.

Independent at heart, but leaning quicker than the Eiffel Tower.

[J_Lannon]

LOL.......no Al Qaeda in Iraq? Pull your head outta the sand Fluff.........They have been pouring into the country since the war began.
All the kidnappings are done by scum bags loyal to Al Qaeda.

And to you Shoebag.............The economy is doing pretty well. The only bad things you hear about it is from the liberal media.

The United States trucking industry is over a 125,000 drivers short at this time. This was predicted over a year ago. Freight has been at a all time high. We are importing drivers from England, australia, Mexico, Russia etc. Don't take my word for it.......go to any trucking website. When the economy is weak, there is no freight to haul.

The big thing preventing our economy from exploding right now is fuel costs. I guess that must be because of all the NON AL QAEDA types in IRAQ not trying to blow up oil platforms. All of OPEC is under the Al Qaeda threat.

Stock market staying over 10,000 everyday.....................seems to me some one is dealing with some one. Its not the Holy grail of the economy, but it sure says that theres dealings going on.

The only people who seem to be crying are the ones to lazy to find a new career.

And as far as health care goes...........Clinton screwed that up way before Bush ever got near the office. If Hillary had her way, we would have free health care? Yeah Right ! The working man would be paying for the lazy mans health care.

Go back and look at Clintons proposals. We can't even refuse a illegal wetback health care, due to Clintons cronies. And we pick up the tab? BS!

We have to import help from overseas everyday because Americans do not want to do certain jobs, even alot of high paying jobs. Or they import because our own people refuse to re-train for a new career.

Todays economy and job market isn't what your daddy had. Todays job market requires alot of flexibility, and the ones that learn that seem to do well. There aren't many 40 years and a gold watch jobs anymore.

[YOUNGSTER]

I don't know about the others......but....
I'm voting for shaggy and J Lannon, yep.

[Big Rad]

If you call them wetbacks........I wonder what you call others who are not like you? I wonder what you would call me behind my back? No matter. I can't do a thing about my ethnicity, but I can do something about my inability to accept folks who are different. :mad: :mad: :mad: Is it any different when from when I see an unwed mother under the age of eighteen? I get pissed at them but all I say is how could they be so stupid.

I would like to ask you to check yourself in the mirror, but apparently you have been doing that a bit already. And look at how you have stirred up Youngster....He is ready to vote for you :( :( :(

[firstmatefluff]

First, right off the bat, "wetbacks"?

I saw a T-shirt a few years ago I really liked, it said something like "prejudice is a symptom, ignorance is the disease...."

As far as Iraq, read your own last post--BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION, Al Qaeda has been pouring into Iraq "EVER SINCE THE WAR BEGAN". Not before we were there, which is why george said we should go there. Unless I really don't understand pre-emption, and the logic is to start a war so there will be bad guys where the war is later, we went to war where there were no Al Qaeda, and turned the country into a recruitment program for them. Yes, Al Qaeda is there now, they weren't before though--the fact they are now just means we created a new problem, not that we went to fight an existing one.

Also, shaggy, the problem w/ the 1000+ US troops killed in Iraq isn't that they were protecting us from terrorists, it is that they weren't--there were no terrorist ties there, Saddam was not a threat, and 1000+ kids, husbands, and fathers dies over there anyway. Had they been protecting us, instead of fighting george's personal goose-chase, it would have been justified, now their lives and deaths are a tragic waste instead.

Fluff

[firstmatefluff]

Also, lannon, since you're such a bush fan, I would have thought you knew that even george and rumsfeld have said many of the fighters on the ground who have been destroying pipelines and kidnapping foreigners are not Al Qaeda. They may be pissed, but they ain't Al Qaeda. Of course, maybe you knew that and disn't like how that de-slanted your argument, or perhaps you decided those were the words of liberals and "wetbacks".....I guess if race-baiting is such a priority of yours, you probably can't wait for a Presidential bid by Trent Lott or David Duke.... :mad:

[J_Lannon]

Wetback = term often used through out the 20th century to quickly describe a Mexican who crossed over illegally. Sorry I'm not quite up to snuff with your touchy feely political correct way of speech. For that I apologize.



But there are in fact over 18 million of them draining american wallets with free health care.
THEY CANNOT BE DENIED HEALTH CARE. But a poor poor black american can die of a heart attack before 3 or 4 hospitals fight over who has to treat the poor guy because he cannot pay?

Where was Billary and Hillary on this one.

Fluff you can continue trying, but your doom and gloom approach to things will not win over many indepedent thinkers. You like to finger point , but have not offered any ideas on ways to improve the situations that you describe

And by the way.as far as name calling or being prejudiced..........I believe your opening post called the Commander in Chief a " whore " .

Prejudice or just rightious Fluff ?????????

[J_Lannon]

Mayby the powers that be............thought before hand, prior to our entry in Iraq........................That possibly we could lure Al Qaeda into Iraq? And fight them there instead of Wal-Mart?

I think The pentagon is a little smarter than just some pokes squabbeling on some forum like we are. I'd be willing to make a bet thats whats going on

I sure like fighting them there instead of here. Either we give lives here or give them over there.
Plain and simple.

[firstmatefluff]

Lannon,

If you wish to discuss the name-calling, let's see:

At best, you are referring to someone as a "wetback" in the above posts out of anger because they had the gall to try to sneak into our country and work for a better life; at worst, you refer to someone as a "wetback" simply because of their birth origin/race. I don't work in ob/gyn, but my general understanding is that most folks don't enjoy a whole lotta choice in their skin color (Michael Jackson excluded).

I referred to george as a whore, and will continue to do so, because he had industry lobbyists come write public energy policy, he killed simple ergonomic rules labor unions fought for years for, he is rolling back Clinton-era mercury emission standards, etc. I call him a whore because American Citizens voted him in, not the corporations who line his pockets and set up PACs for him, yet he chooses to chase the checkbook instead of protecting or representing us. He enjoys quite a bit more choice in his actions than the Latino immigrants you were discussing.

[firstmatefluff]

Oh, as far as luring Al Qaeda into Iraq, that's a thought, but here's another....

If Al Qaeda was in Afghanistan, why lead them into a nother inhospitable country to fight them there, rather than fighting them ini Afghanistan in the first place (of course, we are still fighting in Afghanistan as well, technically, and we all know how well 2-front wars tend to go). Why lead them out of one country where the government was sheltering them by overthrowing another government (even a crappy one) and dragging the fight into a whole new country.

Incidentally, while Al Qaeda is certainly in Iraq now, and was not believed to be before (which is why george and dick had to have so many intelligence reports doctored), the vast majority of US casualties have been small explosives, RPG attacks, and small-arms fire. Almost all of that has been attributed to Iraqis, NOT Al Qaeda. So, if the plan was to lure them into Iraq, yeah, that's been a roaring success, but what about the part where we actually defeat them there? Still waiting?

[Talapia]

J_Lannon/firstmatefluff,

Rules of the board by the boss
SandFlea:

This is for everything non-fishing related, but the same rules still apply: keep it clean, don't be a jerk, yadda, yadda, yadda.

You guys need to keep the derogatory
comments/profanity off this board.

You do not have to agree, but mutual
courtesy should always be shown.

P.S. J_Lannon, there are tons of hispanic
people who are members of P&S, I wonder
what they think of the term you used?

Talapia, outa here...

[firstmatefluff]

lo siento, tilapila ;)

[J_Lannon]

10-4 Talapia, Rules understood.


But I could care less what people whom I may never meet would possibly think about me.

I will use the term " illegals"

Thanx for the reminder.

[J_Lannon]

See there you go again Fluff, Hysteria seems to be the key to most of your points and facts.

Doctored reports? Well If in fact they were doctored , they went to the security council in which many members of the SENATE are on. They get to read everything BUSH gets to read. They some times get them before the Prez gets to see them.

Of course John Kennedy................oooops.......Kerry might not have since he's missed over 75 % of the meetings since 9/11.

And also, try to be specific as to who is lining Georges pockets from the Corporations. I would personally like to be awakened on this. Opps, I fogot, just more hysteria.

And Clintons BS plan to roll back emissions in 5 years was totally out of control. IT CANNOT HAPPEN, or we would have to shut down every single conventional power plant in the US.

HYPE, Hysteria and doom and gloom!

Keep up the good fight.

[firstmatefluff]

Lannon,

Gloom and doom?? I was the one who was saying American Industry and creativity can easily make these things work, they just need a push to see beyond the dollar signs....you're the one saying we'd never be that clever here in America, and if we cut mercury that fast companies would go bankrupt, we'd have no power, and the sky just might fall.

As far as george's pockets getting lined, come on, is this really news to you? I don't know specific names, but more because there've been so many, than that it was just a few. Look at all his massive fund-raising dinners (you shell out $1,000 per plate when you dine out?), look at the evidence regarding his energy task force (which is also "Energy's" energy task force), etc.; its hardly hysteria......even despite the current administration's best efforts, there's a pretty healthy paper-trail; if they weren't so secretive, the paper trail would be miles wide.

Oh, by the way, for specific names, I don't remember many, but I do remember one major contributor george liked to call "Kenny-boy".......

[firstmatefluff]

Doctored reports, lets see....the most current news story is about how much internal disagreement there was regarding aluminum tubes being used for uranium enrichment, disagreement which was already there and pronounced 1 YEAR before condi rice said the aluminum tubes were absolutely for uranium enrichment, as they could have no other purpose.

Other instances, well, how about Valerie Plume (spelling) getting outed by someone in the administration because her husband (name escapes me) stated quite publicly that the "uranium purchase" documents through Niger were false, or the administration saying US troops would be greeted with flowers when a year prior there was a major policy review suggesting an Iraq takeover would likely lead to a shaky puppet-state at best, with heavy US presence, and outright civil war at worst.

Bottom line is, this administration seews what it wants to see--whether this is stupidity, lack of critical thinking skills, or blind arrogance doesn't even matter; what does it is d#mn dangerous to just march blindly forward, ignoring any facts which may be contrary to what you want to see or hear.

Incidentally, the whole outing I mentioned above is another reason I'm no fan of george.....I don't know if he's responsible for any of the sleaze in his administration, but he's certainly happy to go slumming with the folks who stoop to that sort of crap--remember John McCain and george running against each other in the 2000 primaries? John lost NC after anonymous callers began to pose as poll-takers and ask residents how they felt about McCain's illegitimate black son (he doesn't have one)....they preyed on stupidity and outright prejudice to beat McCain, and maybe it wasn't george directly, but he was plenty happy to let them do it.......now the RNC is sending out flyers in WV and NC telling residents liberals plan on banning bibles........I can't feel anything but disgust and loathing for people who play like that (they're human dog-turds), and since george is happy to rub elbows with them, some of that sh#t sticks........

[J_Lannon]

1st of all, the DEMS have thier own 1000 dollar plate dinners. Go look and the DNP national functions and its in black and white. And bye the way, Clinton sold the Lincoln bedroom to about anyone with the money!

Bush didn't go to CHINA to like GORE did to take illegal money from some so called monks either.

YAH LIN was raising millions illegally for the DEMS before he got busted.

Bush did not pass blueprints and technology for missle technology to the Chinese to appease thier hostile political posture. Clinton did.

Wasn't it ALBRIGHT who said that "having only 2 countries with the missles to destroy the world is a dangerous thing" ??????? WOW....what a self inflicted wound. But it was quietly subdued by the biased press. Yeah they DEMS sure had a winnner there.

And as far as the Valery Plume deal , the so called reporter, and her husband are both under scrutiny from Repubs and DEMS alike as to the truth of a "so called leak" from the white house. As we all know, he was promoting his book at the very time that this so called leak began. Sounds like a deflection of truth to me. Novak has been pin pointed as a exagerator of facts many times in his career. And Plumes husband has a ego the size of the square feet of a aircraft carriers flight deck. Go look at some of the extracts from his book............Even the DEMS have condemmed it.

Go look at the support that each DEM has recieved for campaigns from the corporations, .... Its a who's who of the Fortune 500.................Right alongside of the Repubs.

By the way, I talked to some nice people the other day who did alot of hiking along our national trail this summer, and they said they did it minus a BIOLOGICAL suit. They seem ok to me.

[firstmatefluff]

Lannon, just checking, but who is running for Prez. this time around? Just curious because I tend to see more complaints about Clinton than Kerry in the pro-bush arguments here, from yourself and some of the others. If you think slick willie is a dog-turd, that's perfectly fine, but I was noting that I'd be voting for Kerry, not bush and not clinton, either ;)

I just see lots of people who were so disgusted by clinton and who seem unaware of the fact that somebody else is on the Democratic ticket this year......

And yes, I do freely admit Dems take more than their share of handouts as well, it was too bad to see McCain-Feingold gutted and a##-raped when it should have cleaned things up. I do feel, though, that while Dems do their share of slumming too, they spend less time pandering to industry at our expense.

[shaggy]

Okay, so he and others like him did nothing wrong, but medical malpractice has lined the pockets of Edwards, raising the cost of health care here, and health insurance, but Democrats feel every American has the "right" to healthcare, and if they can not afford their own insurance, working Americans can pay for it.

For better or worse, every (okay maybe not all, but most) politicians have found their ways to make money, their friends to help them make it, and when they actually arrive on the political scene, what happens is, they remember their friends and return the favors.

The basic concept here in America is that every four years, we as Americans get to vote for the "lesser of two evils".

Unfortunately (except for me personally, with Bush's tax cut, and yes it did help me), most of the time it's the general citizen that gets the shaft, and the political wheel keeps rolling. Me, I try not to vote party line, and try to choose the best for whatever post one is running for, therefore I have voted for Independents, Republicans and Democrats for various positions, because I felt that they were best for me.

My two cents.

[firstmatefluff]

I totally agree. There was a time when I thought there were maybe a few clean politicians out there (McCain being one), now I"m not so sure anybody isn't tainted, and sadly that's just the way it is. That being said, I'd like to see it cleaned up eventually, but in the meantime, I generally lean left for a variety of reasons, and it has been my general experience that whoever they are courting, the Dems have aligned themselves closer to my values and beliefs than Republicans have. I happen to disagree with this prez. in almost everything he does, and usually in the manner he does it in, too; that is why I am voting Kerry.

Another thought on what you said, Shaggy, perhaps its time we had a multi-party system here, instead of just Dems and Rep. I only say that because look at the current system; each side walks a tightrope trying to keep as broad a coalition as possible, and sometimes they wind up catering to extremists to try to hold as many members as possible. This means 10% of a party can have far more sway than it deserves. For example, look at anti-gun (Dem) and anti-abortion (Rep) groups. While the general sentiment may flow through a good percentage of each party, how many Republicans out there use Roe V Wade as a litmus test for their vote, really? Likewise, how many Dems belong to Handgun Control Inc.? If the extremist wing-nuts who voted on a single issue had their own party, then their 10% of the vote might turn into 10% of the political process, as it should be, rather than holding 1 party hostage. I think its a real problem--I lean left on a range of issues, including gay marriage and environmental stewardship, but here in WI, and in much of the south, the gun issue has cost Democrats dearly--I know lots of peopple who just vote the NRA ticket, even if they are pro-union and pro-choice and whatnot. Likewise, most Republicans support stem-celll research, because they realize that there is potential there, and that these embryos would be discarded anyway, so they should at least be utilized, rather than treated as biohazard at some landfill; but the prez. is beholden to a handful of Christian conservatives because it all comes down to turnout. Like I said, it just seems like extremists on either side and money control politicians, rather than the majorities they are supposed to represent. Maybe better finance laws can kill the money thing, but I don't know how to bring the parties back to mainstream without dividing them up so the extremists can have their own tiny groups, and the appropriate representation.

As far as trial lawyers, though, I disagree. george fought hard to cap maximum damages at 250,000 in malpractice......imagine your sister ends up sterile and unable to ever have kids because of gross negligence on some doctor's part--is 250,000 fair? Is it even close to enough? What about if your spouse was killed? Is say 5-6 years worth of salary even close to enough to make up for your loss? No money is, of course, but I still say $250,000 as a max cap was ridiculous. I think healthcare is going up because of lots of reasons, lawsuits being a small part compared w/ the drug companies george has cozied up to, or the HMOs that george has likewise got down on his knees to service.