I know this might not be the place....but

[Flyersfan]

I know this is a fishing board, but I like to think that here is a place where I met and chatted with alot of guys like myself, grew up in a typical blue collar american household, that's why as I hit middle age I can't understand what's going on in the world. These muslims think it's OK to cut some innocent contractors head off, who is only trying to make their little SH!T hole of a country better, but don't draw a cartoon. I really can see that these people won't stop at anything.
Sorry I posted here, I just wanted to talk with
AMERICANS !!:mad: :mad: :mad:

[redneckranger]

served in afghanistan don't get me started

[Flyersfan]

I thank you for serving, my 1st cousin was there
A.F. TECH Sarge Thomas O'Neill out of McGuire...
What service did you serve in?

[redneckranger]

i was an Army Ranger

[hokieboy]

God Bless you and anyone else who has served our country. What really ticks me off is the people here in America who put down our soldiers and dont show them respect. I pray for you guys everyday.

[redneckranger]

[POST DELETED] Watch the language.

[redneckranger]

RACN try barely $500 in 2 weeks before taxes

[redneckranger]

same with my fiances dad his retirement barely covers the house

i enlisted in 1998 made 1069 a month after taxes thank god i was single

[Orest]

I enlist right out of high school. Spent 2 years in Germany. Nike Hercules Electronic Maintenance Specialist, 24U.

We should drop a few over there and be done with it.

[db prater]

Never served, but my next door neighbor and fishing buddy was blown up in the Gulf War. He was a bomb disposal specialist in the USAF. Lost his left arm and leg, spent some time in Germany before coming back to the VA hospital in Memphis. Here is the kicker, he got turned down on SSI and they didn't even have a purple heart ceremony-it was mailed to him. He now gets his pay and deserves every damn bit of it. We are dealing with a group of people whose religion will not mesh with western culture. I wish the best for everyone who has loved ones there or has been there.

[redneckranger]

he's got my respect

[RuddeDogg]

I am sick and tired of politicians trying to fight a soldiers war. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: . We need to and should be allowed to do what we were trained to do. I would like to go back in time a little 86-92, and have me and my boys get SWIFT, SILENT and DEADLY on their camel F*&^%$# @$$es.

[oldsalt]

Navy 1958 $79.00 a Month. You guys is talking about big money.:p :p :)

[Railroader]

HOOOO-AHHHH!!!!

Viet Nam is what happens when you let a bunch of politicians fight a war...It amazes me that no one remembers that cluster-fk.

If you wanna win, you gotta remove two of three things from the enemy.

1. Their MEANS to fight.
2. Their ABILITY to fight.
3. Their WILL to fight.

The politicians need to pick which two, turn the DEVIL DOGS loose, and shut the hell up and let 'em do their job.

It really IS that SIMPLE.:cool:

[db prater]

Yep.

[HawgHvn]

USN. 20+.

Son in the army on second overseas, this time in Iraq. Says he isn't on the front lines (mechanic). I told him "Dat's Krap! All of Iraq is a front line!"
Just hope he he gets to get back to his wife and new baby boy.

Know what happens when sand is overheated? Turns into glass. I say, let's turn Iraq into a glass factory. We got plenty of heat generating equipment stored in silos.

Now you know why I'm not in charge!

[johnnyleo11]

You're right, this isn't the place. Write a letter to someone in Richmond or two hours up I-95.

Ask them to start pushing on fuel alternatives. It's no secret why we are over there at this moment. If we didn't have a dependence on oil, we'd be content with growing the mess out of some corn for ethanol or rebuilding our infrastructure with alternative fuel stations. Call me crunchy all you want, but push is finally coming to shove.

And I truly doubt that every muslim behaves that way. Start talking with people directly and ask how they feel about things. I can guarantee you a lot of black people have different thoughts than what the NAACP has on it's agenda. I know plenty of "latinos" that don't agree with everything LULAC is about. I've been guilty of taking an organization's thoughts over an individual's beliefs. I always thought that there wasn't an organization for someone like me to automatically belong to. I'm not white, I'm not yellow, I'm both. This made me think that I should talk to individuals as individuals.

Unfortunately, a lot of us Americans that go overseas are thought to have the same ideas of our most famous celebrities the world over, our politicians, and feel that we have to defend ourselves on the politcians thoughts. Sucks being typecast sometimes. But when we get back home, we know why we call it home and why people are risking to put everything on the line to keep it known as the promised land. These people leave everything back home and traverse the oceans or cross hazardous borders not knowing exactly what to expect. Some of them lose everything making the trip. And when my fellow servicemembers see those people wanting to come here, we truly know how good we have it back home. Honestly, how many Americans are dying to leave here?

[redneckranger]

let not turn iraq into a glass factory instead turn it into a parking lot so everyone can park their SUVs

[jjaachapa]

i am with ya man- when i joined the Navy in 1980 I made 644 clear a MONTH !! then went straight to beruit lebanon for 9 months in 1982, lybia in 1983 and grenada in 1984 !! before i retired i went to the persian gulf 3 times.....now my retirement check barley pays my house payment..........
I must be in a better Navy. That really sucks that you got payed so little.
I made 54 thousand last year and I never saw the ocean. and I'm enlisted.

[sand flea]

No cursing. You guys know the rules--this is a family friendly site.

redneckranger, you're bounced if you don't watch your mouth.

[bbcroaker]

Navy 1958 $79.00 a Month. You guys is talking about big money.:p :p :)
Hey oldsalt wish I'd of went into the Navy.
Was getting $64 a month in the Army in 1962:D

[redneckranger]

don't say that ARMY is better lol

[bluerunner]

God Bless you and anyone else who has served our country. What really ticks me off is the people here in America who put down our soldiers and dont show them respect. I pray for you guys everyday.

I don't konw of anybody who bad mouths our soldiers, I don't necessarily approve of the war but i have the utmost respect for the people over there fighting it.

[rob@wilson.org]

I don't konw of anybody who bad mouths our soldiers, I don't necessarily approve of the war but i have the utmost respect for the people over there fighting it.
There are lot of people that bad mouth our soldiers. One of which is Cindy Sheehan. Not only has she taken every oppurtonity to bash our President, she has also referred to our soldiers as terrorist. I guess she really didn't have a high opinion of her own son. Also, Tom Toles has recently published a cartoon not only mocking Rumsfeld, but was very insulting to injured vets. Show it to DB's neighbor and see how it would make him feel. Then there are the idiots that protest at the funerals of our fallen soldiers. The group I'm talking about isn't even protesting the war but America's stance on gay rights. They go as far as thanking God for IED's and the deaths they cause our soldiers. To give these guys credit, they don't just protest at soldiers funerals, they were in WV all happy at the deaths of the mine workers during those funerals as well. This is a religious group from Kansas (do a google on Rev. Fred Phelps for more info) so not only Muslims have extremist. You don't think we do? Abortion clinic bombers, gay bar attackers, KKK, OK City, Pat Robertson we have them, everybody does. The trick is what to do about them. I support the war and think it should be expanded to include other countries as well. I think those in the media that disagree need to keep their mouth shut or be censored as they were in WWII. We are on the brink of WWIII and IMHO should go into it full force and committed to win for the betterment of the world. If that means upsetting some people here at home by taking away some of their rights so be it. It's happened before with success it can happen now. As already pointed out, look at Vietnam and what happens when only half of the country wants to win the war. Go back in history, there are always anti war activist, it's just important to control them when need be. This nation is more important than their individual rights. You know, I could go on and on, but I won't. And if anybody get's all hot and bothered by what I said or offended, sorry. It's how I feel and this country allows me to state that. If it was me the government wanted to censor, I might feel differently. Discussion and debate is good, everybody with a differing opinion from me finally realizing I'm right, better.

[Flyersfan]

JohnnyLeo,
I think you're missing my point, I was saying that "thousands" and if not "millions" of muslims came out to burn, smash, and otherwise cause the distruction of property that belonged to the Dutch embassies. When the hostages were executed and murdered like animals in front of cameras they said nothing, to them anyone who is not a muslim is an animal. Their thought process has nothing to do with alternative fuel. The fact we have bought oil and enriched their countries with money only served to cause this conflict to worsen. They have used that money to pay for arms and build camps to train more fantitics. A cartoon caused this behavior, Johnny, a cartooon. If they feel misplaced in the world cutting someone's head off is not the way to make new friends. I won't trust them and I seriously question muslims in this country, not because they are evil, but because they sat by and did not protest the beheadings. Maybe if someone drew a picture of a beheading that would be different. Don't get me started on 911 that had nothing to do with oil and everything to do with Muslims, intolerance for people not like them in Israel and other places around the world. Oh and I do support the war, but not the current tatics. Just like here they need to secure the borders.
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :--|

[1fishinmusician]

Everyone in this thread, the USA, heck, the world needs to listen to this song. "Fallen" by "Thomas & King" at www.tandkcountry.com.
It'll tear ya up... and it bout sums up my thoughts on this thread. ;) If you like this song, please spread the word bout it! :) This song can also be heard and requested on www.allsouthernrock.com 4 free, ya jus need to register and it's easy......and thanks so much to all you military folks out there for your service!!!:)

[johnnyleo11]

FlyersFan,

I know the cartoons you're talking about, and even though they just might be cartoons, they carry a heavy message. A political cartoon can evoke so much more emotion than an editorial because the message gathered will be in the eyes of the observer. There are no words to have the observer's thought process altered or steered towards the author's opinion.

I'm sure there were plenty of political cartoons found during all of the wars we have been involved in. Have you seen the cartoons of the defense contractors from Blackwater strung up on the bridge? That made me pretty hot under the collar. An eye for an eye you may think?

But take this quote from Mahatma Gandhi. "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth and the whole world would soon be blind and toothless."

[johnnyleo11]

This, I believe, is really a nice commentary and worth the read.



Subject: TO KILL AN AMERICAN



Written by an Australian Dentist...


To Kill an American

You probably missed it in the rush of news last week, but there was actually a report that someone in Pakistan had published in a newspaper an offer of a reward to anyone who killed an American, any American.

So an Australian dentist wrote an editorial the following day to let everyone know what an American is . so they would know when they found one. (Good one, mate!!!!)

" An American is English, or French, or Italian, Irish, German, Spanish, Polish, Russian or Greek. An American may also be Canadian, Mexican, African, Indian, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Australian, Iranian, Asian, or Arab, or Pakistani or Afghan.

An American may also be a Comanche, Cherokee, Osage, Blackfoot, Navaho, Apache, Seminole or one of the many other tribes known as native Americans.

An American is Christian, or he could be Jewish, or Buddhist, or Hindu, or Muslim. In fact, there are more Muslims in America than in Afghanistan. The only difference is that in America they are free to worship as each of them chooses.

An American is also free to believe in no religion. For that he will answer only to God, not to the government, or to armed thugs claiming to speak for the government and for God.

An American lives in the most prosperous land in the history of the world. The root of that prosperity can be found in the Declaration of Independence , which recognizes the God given right of each person to the pursuit of happiness.

The national symbol of America, The Statue of Liberty, welcomes your tired and your poor, the wretched refuse of your teeming shores, the homeless, tempest tossed. These in fact are the people who built America.

Some of them were working in the Twin Towers the morning of September 11, 2001 earning a better life for their families. It's been told that the World Trade Center victims were from at least 30 different countries, cultures, and first languages, including those that aided and abetted the terrorists.

So you can try to kill an American if you must. Hitler did. So did General Tojo, and Stalin, and Mao Tse-Tung, and other blood-thirsty tyrants in the world. But, in doing so you would just be killing yourself. Because Americans are not a particular people from a particular place. They are the embodiment of the human spirit of freedom. Everyone who holds to that spirit, everywhere, is an American.

Find yourself an American to talk with.

[rattler]

i wasn't going to get into this...i think it is their culture...its all about control...if you control people you control everything...food,money,etc...most of the places over there don't share the wealth with the people...the saudis are a family owned country...if you have nothing but trying to live every day...you have to have some hope...belief in a better place...didn't work in WW2...or the cold war...the nam was a screw up from the word go...the people on the street are more afraid of their govm't than they are of us...trying to make them friends didn't work in NAM and it won't work now...they will take what you give them(i would)and go home to build a bomb...these people are 100+ years behind us...and their leaders want to keep them there...it will never work unless we TAKE the land and change the way the guy on the street lives...JMHO...and we get more oil from canada than from the sauids...and EXXON-MOBILE had a record profit of 86 BILLION $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[sand flea]

I'm a libetarian at heart. We all have the right to say stupid, offensive, and hurtful things to each other.

But what's at stake here is whether or not a free press and a free culture can criticize any given religion. I say it can.

A couple of years ago, someone took a picture of the Virgin Mary and covered it in dung and hung it in an art gallery in New York. A few years before that, Andres Serrano suspended a crucifix in urine and called it Piss Christ. They both were offensive and stupid. And in both cases, they had the right to do it.

But now we're seeing a part of the world that says we can't do these things, even in our own countries. They want to cram the entire world under their bootheel, and we want to be so tolerant of other cultures that we even tolerate their intolerance.

Anyone can say or do or think whatever they want, so long as they don't tell me I can't say or do or think whatever I want.

Here's my reply, summed up:

http://www.nbr.co.nz/images/Mohammed_cartoon.jpg

[fish b8]

WOW just WOW!!!

Thanks for that... I am glad you are so open minded to find that article... I read your earlier response and I appreciate your opinions...

I hope your attitude and views may rub off onto some others...

keep on bro

[Flyersfan]

That's what I'm talking about Johhny Boy...

I'm willing to listen to anyone's views and opinions, as long as he will in turn listen to mine and not cut my head off.
It's a shame that over years religion and spirituality has been twisted by MAN not God to control people.... I would love to be able to buy some liquor on Sunday, but because it's somebody's opinion in Va. (Victorian elite) that I shouldn't drink on a Sunday the ABC stores are closed. Amen and pass the altar wine.
Cheers and Slainte';)

Sometimes I make myself laugh....even if nobody finds it funny:p

[fisherkid]

http://www.nbr.co.nz/images/Mohammed_cartoon.jpg
If Mohammed would never do something like that and never say anyone should then why when the get upset are they murdering and blowing themeselves up?:rolleyes:
I was in Israel recently and I was in about 3-4 arab cabs. one cabbie was very nice had a degree in arcatechial enginering and was pleasant. the other three where thinking I how fast can I get him out of my car:--| Two things wrong with me. I'm an American and I'm a Jew. the day we flew in there was a suicide bombing in an old bus station. Are there peaceful muslims? YES. are the majority of what were seeing done peaceful? NO.

[MANDINGO]

You're right, this isn't the place. Write a letter to someone in Richmond or two hours up I-95.

Ask them to start pushing on fuel alternatives. It's no secret why we are over there at this moment. If we didn't have a dependence on oil, we'd be content with growing the mess out of some corn for ethanol or rebuilding our infrastructure with alternative fuel stations. Call me crunchy all you want, but push is finally coming to shove.

And I truly doubt that every muslim behaves that way. Start talking with people directly and ask how they feel about things. I can guarantee you a lot of black people have different thoughts than what the NAACP has on it's agenda. I know plenty of "latinos" that don't agree with everything LULAC is about. I've been guilty of taking an organization's thoughts over an individual's beliefs. I always thought that there wasn't an organization for someone like me to automatically belong to. I'm not white, I'm not yellow, I'm both. This made me think that I should talk to individuals as individuals.

Unfortunately, a lot of us Americans that go overseas are thought to have the same ideas of our most famous celebrities the world over, our politicians, and feel that we have to defend ourselves on the politcians thoughts. Sucks being typecast sometimes. But when we get back home, we know why we call it home and why people are risking to put everything on the line to keep it known as the promised land. These people leave everything back home and traverse the oceans or cross hazardous borders not knowing exactly what to expect. Some of them lose everything making the trip. And when my fellow servicemembers see those people wanting to come here, we truly know how good we have it back home. Honestly, how many Americans are dying to leave here?
WELL SAID INDEED;)

[MANDINGO]

let not turn iraq into a glass factory instead turn it into a parking lot so everyone can park their SUVs
DAMN DESSERT WITH NUKES TURN THE SAND TO GLASS THEN TAP IT ONCE OR TWICE AND THE OIL WILL BUBBLE OUT LIKE THE IRAQI HILLBILLIES..LOL;) :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :

[Fish Bait]

Three cheers for sand flea!

[Flyersfan]

YeeeeyyyAAAAHHH:D

[cockroachjr.]

Remember this is a world of illusion. Everyone sees based on their own perception. Put yourself in the shoes one of the disenfranchised muslims and you will see that "religion has become the peoples opium." The masses are enraged b/c for many when your in a muslim country your religious or spiritual beliefs are sacred and that is all many in those countries have. (Of course richer + moderate muslims will be mad just off of principle b/c it is blashpemous in their religion) But when you desecrate all a common person has left then what do you think is going to happen? Now I'm not an apologist for the terrorists or the U.S. government because they are both in the wrong. I'm not hating on the troops cause most of them are just kids and its not cool to see people so young come in a bodybag. Side note-- You know more blue blooded Americans probably read the Quaran more than you think. Remember my-sons- Justice is a reward or penalty based on ones actions. 32 degrees is just-ice.

[sand flea]

To fisherkid's point, I really don't feel like being lectured on cultural tolerance by a group of people who are the most rabidly anti-Semitic since the Nazis. Have you guys seen the kind of cartoons that are regularly run in the mainstream Arab press? It'll turn your stomach. For God's sakes, there's now a contest in the Iranian media soliciting for cartoons that make fun of the holocaust because some Danes drew a few (frankly rather lame) depictions of Mohammed.

Makes me think of this:

http://img495.imageshack.us/img495/8592/200602046ex.gif

[sand flea]

And I truly doubt that every muslim behaves that way. Start talking with people directly and ask how they feel about things. I can guarantee you a lot of black people have different thoughts than what the NAACP has on it's agenda. I know plenty of "latinos" that don't agree with everything LULAC is about. I've been guilty of taking an organization's thoughts over an individual's beliefs. I always thought that there wasn't an organization for someone like me to automatically belong to. I'm not white, I'm not yellow, I'm both. This made me think that I should talk to individuals as individuals.

Totally agree, but at what point do you start to recognize that a culture is sick? How many people have to go berzerk before you realize that something's wrong, even if there are still good people mixed in with the bad?

Look, I'm not just picking on Muslims here. Let's take the U.S. as an example: during segregation, there were millions of Americans who weren't racist. But our culture was deeply sick in the way it treated blacks, and saying "There are plenty of Americans who aren't racist" didn't mean there was nothing wrong with our country. We were screwed up, and the existence of millions of non-racist Americans didn't change that.

(And a request: can we stop the "glass parking lot" comments? It's not cool to joke about the murder of millions of human beings.)

[Newsjeff]

Andres Serrano suspended a crucifix in urine and called it Piss Christ.

What I find funny is Serrano got $15,000 from the National Endowment for the Arts. I love it.

[sand flea]

Can you imagine the reaction to these cartoons if the government of Saudi Arabia not only published the cartoons, but used public tax dollars to pay for them?

I think it says something about the real tolerance of both sides.

[fisherkid]

To fisherkid's point, I really don't feel like being lectured on cultural tolerance by a group of people who are the most rabidly anti-Semitic since the Nazis. Have you guys seen the kind of cartoons that are regularly run in the mainstream Arab press? It'll turn your stomach. For God's sakes, there's now a contest in the Iranian media soliciting for cartoons that make fun of the holocaust because some Danes drew a few (frankly rather lame) depictions of Mohammed.

Makes me think of this:

http://img495.imageshack.us/img495/8592/200602046ex.gif
The presidant of Iran has stated that he doesn't think that the holocaust never happend and that Israel should be wiped of the face of the earth. peaceful. eh? to put it simply I don't think the Palestinians WANT a country as much as they DON'T want Israel to be a country much as they DON'T want Israel to be a country

[rattler]

the weird thing is...i work with a muslim guy from lebanon...he says "SADDAM" is shiete from the kids names...not sunni...or visa versa...which ever one fits...its gonna be a growing problem...cartoon riots are just a start...its stupid to me but not to them...i could not even imagine putting myself into a belief that much(fishing excluded)...they are still into triable warfare...and now they can go worldwide...spooky...

[Flyersfan]

I don't think anyone has an excuse for that kind of behavior, over a cartoon. I turned on the TV and thought I was watching a soccer match. It seems the world is a "what about me world" lately. From Enron to muslims, the democrats at
the King funeral and last our Govenor Kaine. He had the nerve to make it sound like Va. is a bed of political compromise. I watch Richmond city council when there is nothing on the comedy channel. Here in Richmond, the whites are at odds with blacks, the blacks are at odds with
whites and then there is south side/west end, not to mention Yankee and nonnative Richmonder haters. Compromise.....try being a Yankee and telling a native you might have a better idea and he might just do it his way no matter what....it's unreal. I'm not perfect nor do I claim to be, but I know how to listen and I know when something can be better.
Every place has it's problems but some are like disfunctional
family that needs years of therapy.

[J_Lannon]

I served in the Navy from 1977-1997. I did not join for PATRIOTIC reasons. I joined because my home town in Maine was a dead end as far as employment went. In Rumford Maine, you either worked in the paper mill or logged for a living, and thats IF you could get a job doing either of the two.

The military today has not changed. They suck in thousands and thousands of young men and women like me, from towns like mine. Kids who might not have much of an opportunity for college or a good trade in thier home towns. Alot of these young people set thier eyes on the free college promised to them, along with other V.A. benefits.

I was lucky, I was in the Navy and worked in engine rooms my entire career. Sure, ....engine rooms can get a bit hazardous, buts its a controlled enviroment. But there were many young kids who went into more dangerous positions in the military because they did not score high enough on some ASVAB test. They ended up being the "grunts" for both the Marines and Army. I lost friends in Panama, Beruit, Somolia, and the most recent in Iraq. I knew most of thier wives and kids.


The term "PATRIOTIC"...........is used too loosely as far as I'm concerned. Three kids out of a hundred might join just for patriotic reasons. The rest are just young kids like I was looking for a way out of a depressed area, or looking to for some adventure, or the hope of going to college some day. Our Gov't fully understands this and takes advantage of the situations these kids are in.

I would like to suggest that the Gov't set up their recruiting stations on the Monterey Penninsula, or Myrtle Beach or "good ole" Harvard ...and see how well they do enticing young people to serve in the military services.


On the funny side of all this, are the americans that sit back and holler about sending the military into some "RAG HEAD" country to kick ass.

Sending the military into any conflict comes with a heavy cost. It costs the lives of young kids who were just looking for a brighter future.

I do not agree or disagree with President Bush. He is the Commander in Chief. If he says Iraq was the right thing to do, thats fine with me. I respect the burden that he carries with the position.

I do hate the fact,.... that selfish American citizens, and selfish Congressmen, and Senators do not support the draft to more widely spread the burden of freedom.

[Talapia]

I served in the Navy from 1977-1997. I did not join for PATRIOTIC reasons. I joined because my home town in Maine was a dead end as far as employment went. In Rumford Maine, you either worked in the paper mill or logged for a living, and thats IF you could get a job doing either of the two.

The military today has not changed. They suck in thousands and thousands of young men and women like me, from towns like mine. Kids who might not have much of an opportunity for college or a good trade in thier home towns. Alot of these young people set thier eyes on the free college promised to them, along with other V.A. benefits.

I was lucky, I was in the Navy and worked in engine rooms my entire career. Sure, ....engine rooms can get a bit hazardous, buts its a controlled enviroment. But there were many young kids who went into more dangerous positions in the military because they did not score high enough on some ASVAB test. They ended up being the "grunts" for both the Marines and Army. I lost friends in Panama, Beruit, Somolia, and the most recent in Iraq. I knew most of thier wives and kids.


The term "PATRIOTIC"...........is used too loosely as far as I'm concerned. Three kids out of a hundred might join just for patriotic reasons. The rest are just young kids like I was looking for a way out of a depressed area, or looking to for some adventure, or the hope of going to college some day. Our Gov't fully understands this and takes advantage of the situations these kids are in.

I would like to suggest that the Gov't set up their recruiting stations on the Monterey Penninsula, or Myrtle Beach or "good ole" Harvard ...and see how well they do enticing young people to serve in the military services.


On the funny side of all this, are the americans that sit back and holler about sending the military into some "RAG HEAD" country to kick ass.

Sending the military into any conflict comes with a heavy cost. It costs the lives of young kids who were just looking for a brighter future.

I do not agree or disagree with President Bush. He is the Commander in Chief. If he says Iraq was the right thing to do, thats fine with me. I respect the burden that he carries with the position.

I do hate the fact,.... that selfish American citizens, and selfish Congressmen, and Senators do not support the draft to more widely spread the burden of freedom.

I was agreeing with you until you mentioned
the draft. The last thing that active duty
folks want is to be forced to work with
draftees. The job is hard enough as it is
without having to deal with people who
are forced to be there. The law of supply
and demand will compensate. If they are
not getting enough folks, they will just
have to give out better pay and benefits.

[Orest]

I think every male and female should have to join a branch of the service of their chose for 18 months.

[Talapia]

I think every male and female should have to join a branch of the service of their chose for 18 months.

Orest,

Sounds good in theory....but when you
add up the amount of time/effort/and
money that it would take to train/feed/clothe
those folks it would be staggering.

For most jobs you would just be starting
to have a clue at 18 months.

Meanwhile you would have to take huge
amounts of military personnel away from
other tasks to train these folks. Then
watch most of them leave basically as
soon as the training is done. Just
does not make sense. It would be far
better to take care of the ones you have
that make a commitment to staying
around for a few years.

[Orest]

in the late '70's every male had to enlist for 18 months.

Give's you an Army and gives them some guidence in their life.

[Talapia]

in the late '70's every male had to enlist for 18 months.

Give's you an Army and gives them some guidence in their life.

I hear ya...but fact is we have an Army,
just need to take care of it. I cannot
name one nation with a mandatory service
obligation that excels at what they do.
Most are borderline incompetent.

I worked with NATO in Turkey and
Italy for a total of 5 years. The difference
between voluteer forces and conscription
forces was staggering. They basically
used conscripts for menial jobs because
they could not afford to train them all
in technical specialties.

[Big Rad]

I will quietly mention Israel as a nation that is good at what they do. They do have mandatory service obligations. They are also in the unique position of being surrounded by potential enemies:eek:

[Talapia]

I will quietly mention Israel as a nation that is good at what they do. They do have mandatory service obligations. They are also in the unique position of being surrounded by potential enemies:eek:

I conceed your point on Isreal. But that
is the exception rather than the rule.
They have a terribly unique situation
over there in that they are basically
defending their homes and family.
I do not think that US draftees would
feel quite the same way when ordered to
go over to Afghanistan, Iraq, or anywhere
else they were told to go to.

[Fish Bait]

"I cannot name one nation with a mandatory service obligation that excels at what they do.
Most are borderline incompetent."

May i remind you that we won WWII with draftees. Actually Hitler was counting on the the American citizen army not standing up to his professional storm troopers - big mistake.

[Talapia]

The draft is great for the short term. And it
definitely will have its uses throughout
parts of history. My question to you:

Why did the US get rid of the draft immediately
following the Vietnam war?

Do you think that a draft could be
sustained indefinitely?

Today's military is not the same one
that our grandfathers were in. We are
a very technical military where intense
specialized training is required.

[Talapia]

"I cannot name one nation with a mandatory service obligation that excels at what they do.
Most are borderline incompetent."

May i remind you that we won WWII with draftees. Actually Hitler was counting on the the American citizen army not standing up to his professional storm troopers - big mistake.

Hitler was counting on the fact that we
would not want to get involved, which
we were not going to do for the most part until
the UK basically forced our hand on
the issue.

[oldsalt]

bbcroaker
That was after i got out of boot camp.:cool:

[Fish Bait]

I don't know why the draft was ended.

A draft could be sustained for as long as it was needed.

I went into the army by way of the draft and trained as an artillery surveyor. Now this may not be rocket science but it was challenging and i think that i and the other draftees did as good a job at it as the regular army guys.

Having served in the draft along with some good friends, i find your characterization of draftees in your last 2 questions a bit offensive.

[Talapia]

I don't know why the draft was ended.

A draft could be sustained for as long as it was needed.

I went into the army by way of the draft and trained as an artillery surveyor. Now this may not be rocket science but it was challenging and i think that i and the other draftees did as good a job at it as the regular army guys.

Having served in the draft along with some good friends, i find your characterization of draftees in your last 2 questions a bit offensive.

Why would you be offended? My questions
did not say that everyone who was
drafted was a deadbeat....my questions
were very specific, and yes there would
be PLENTY of folks who would get drafted
who would meet those criteria. These
are very fair and legitimate questions.
Our nation is basically evenly divided on
our foreign policy choices. Basically half
of the people who would get drafted would
not agree with the reason they were forced
to fight for a policy that they strongly disagreed
with. They would be very bitter and have
a bad attitude. So if you can honestly say
that we would not have people who fit into
these two categories mentioned below then
I will delete my post.


Bottom line for me and most of my co-workers
is...if they don't want to be here, then we
don't want them.

[Big Rad]

The draft was ended because of the questions surrounding the Vietnam war. Thats right it was a war and not a conflict. I was too young to go but I was idealistic when I believed we were in it to win it. I couldn't wait for my chance:eek:
My conciousness was raised concerning the "real" reasons behind the continuing warfare and it wasn't at a peace rally. My uncle came home with the real skinny on what was happening over there. He didn't want to be there but he was watching his brothers backs. He said there was no question of who they were fighting when the bullets were flying. It was only in the rear with the gear that the protests focused on the politics. My oldest brother (6 yrs older) was drafted and I remember the prayers that were said before his physical.

I am an american and if drafted I would serve; however the nature of the conflict would have some bearing upon how I felt about the "job". The mind of the draftee is definately manipulated by the prevailing public opinion, with only the staunchest believers in the american way going blindly into the fray.

T-man you might want to quantify/correct the statement about who is beside you fighting.

I believe that any draftee would recognise the enemy. You are implying that you would have to watch your front and your back:(

[Talapia]

Fair enough. Since my comments have
seemed to offend some I will adjust
them immediately. I am a man of my word.

"I believe that any draftee would recognise the enemy. You are implying that you would have to watch your front and your back"

I leave you with this: To a small portion of the draftees, the enemy
would be the US government and the military. That is a fact.

I just do not think that forcing someone who hates the
administration and US foreign policy and probably the
US military for that matter would be the best person
to take into the war with you.

[cockroachjr.]

i am not at all advocating that what the common people did was correct..that was totally inappropriate behavior and they should be punished appropriately... However, there is no lecture here just letting the people on here Knowthe reason why the masses were behaving the way they did...Indeed the leaders are sick...the Shah's in Iran and government of Saudi because of their policies especially against women. How you gonna tell me I gotta wear a beard or how to live and how I'm rightous but on my way to Mecca I get sold into state sanctioned slavery...but hey aren't most leaders are sick..what kind of a government tests drugs and poisons on its own troops, sells crack to its citizens to fund wars, and starts wars just to finance the World Monetary Fund...where you know where Osoma got his training from to fight the Russians...opps the United States...I better shut up before the NSA comes looking for me..next thing you know I'll be locked down their in Cuba with no legal representation and some chica trying to stack me with other detainees so she get a picture of my beefstick:eek:

[J_Lannon]

Fair enough. Since my comments have
seemed to offend some I will adjust
them immediately. I am a man of my word.

"I believe that any draftee would recognise the enemy. You are implying that you would have to watch your front and your back"

I leave you with this: To a small portion of the draftees, the enemy
would be the US government and the military. That is a fact.

I just do not think that forcing someone who hates the
administration and US foreign policy and probably the
US military for that matter would be the best person
to take into the war with you.


You miss the point. It should never be about fighting for your Gov't. Its about your country and its people.

Spread the burden fairly amongst all americans.

I'm not trying to argue with you, but I do believe that all americans should share the load.

Rich, poor, middle class.................Take your turn at the wheel.


We have lost our sense of nationalism. Freedom comes at a cost, and far too many of our people refuse to protect what was given to us by our founders.

[Talapia]

You miss the point. It should never be about fighting for your Gov't. Its about your country and its people.

Spread the burden fairly amongst all americans.

I'm not trying to argue with you, but I do believe that all americans should share the load.

Rich, poor, middle class.................Take your turn at the wheel.


We have lost our sense of nationalism. Freedom comes at a cost, and far too many of our people refuse to protect what was given to us by our founders. Can't argue with that.;)

[Fish Bait]

JL,
AMEN to that.

[sand flea]

So J_Lannon's point is that more American citizens should share the burden of service, while Talapia's point is that an all-volunteer army is much better than a drafted one.

Problem is, you're both right.

This piece (http://www.slate.com/id/2102858/) in Slate does a great job of trying to reconcile the two. The prospect of compulsory military service raises fundamental questions—and agonizing dilemmas—for a free and democratic society. On the one hand, should the state have the right to compel its citizens to kill and possibly be killed? (This is very different matter from the compulsion to pay taxes or serve on juries, except to extreme libertarians.) On the other hand, should we, as citizens, be allowed to evade this ultimate obligation by turning it over to the poorer members of society—those who can't find good-paying jobs except in the military?

[Talapia]

Very tough subject.

When I said that today's military is a lot
more technically oriented and that an
18 month term of service just does
not make sense, I was accused of calling
prior draftees stupid....far from the case.

When I stated that some draftees
would be hostile towards the US
govt and their coworkers because they
felt very strongly that US policy was
wrong I was accused of calling all prior
draftees traitors.

For some reason folks seem to think
that I do not think that all americans
should pull their equal weight? Where
did that come from? They absolutely
should....if it would be to the benefit
of the United States...

I understand the need for sacrifices for
our country, I also understand that we
have the best fighting force in the world
right now and that we need to be careful
how we supply manning for that force.

I will not even get into the part about drafting
females into the service.....That's a good one
for next winter! Smile.

[Fish Bait]

To complicate the matter, we have a de facto draft in the stop-loss orders preventing people from getting out even thou they served their time. That's really unfair.

[Talapia]

To complicate the matter, we have a de facto draft in the stop-loss orders preventing people from getting out even thou they served their time. That's really unfair.

That's part of the benefit package of being
in the military. ;) Sure it sucks but
most of these guys are kept on because
their skills are urgently needed at the time.

The ones I really feel for are the ones
who are brought back into service after
they have already left and started
their civilian careers/life.

[Big Rad]

Does anyone remember the movie starship troopers? In order to be a "citizen" and to partake of the special rights associated with citizenship, a person had to join the fight against the bugs. Incentives far beyond the pittance which is offered now would be the ticket.

[Railroader]

A lot of good points being raised here, and I'd like to add one more. Even when there was a draft, those with enough money or power, or influence, that didn't "want to go" found a way out of it. The burden of defending freedom will ALWAYS rest on the shoulders of the poor/middle class.

EVERYONE who has joined (not drafted into) the military for whatever reason, knew long before being sworn in that ARMED CONFLICT could very well be part of the deal.....

It's the price that young people pay for the training, benefits, and experience that military service provides. The military builds STRONG PEOPLE.

I wil have to respectfully disagree that only three out of a hundred who join do so for patriotic reasons.

Every swingin' ding-a-ling that I joined up with in 1986 was there for patriotic reasons...We couldn't wait to get in the uniform. And at graduation from boot camp, we were ALL GROWN MEN.

I don't remember the first one that said he was there because it was the "best he could do"....Hell, you could make better money back then pushing a wheelbarrow at a construction site....

We all wanted to be part of the fighting force that defended our great nation....

AND WE WERE!

[Fish Bait]

Just to support my earlier post, this is a quotation from Stephen E. Ambrose's book "Citizen Solders":
"Hitler had been sure his young men would outfight the young Americans. He was certain that the spoiled sons of democracy couldn't stand up to the solid sons of dictatorship."

[Talapia]

Does anyone remember the movie starship troopers? In order to be a "citizen" and to partake of the special rights associated with citizenship, a person had to join the fight against the bugs. Incentives far beyond the pittance which is offered now would be the ticket.

And we come full circle....
Big Rad, this was one of my first
posts on this topic:

The law of supply
and demand will compensate. If they are
not getting enough folks, they will just
have to give out better pay and benefits.

[Kajun]

as I hit middle age I can't understand what's going on in the world.



well...i'll tell ya whats going on in the world.....we are in the midst of a HOLY WAR...but call it whatever you want......its not "terrorism" its plain and simple JIHAD...and as soon as everyone wakes up and realizes this simple FACT, then and only then we will be able to fight it....its not a war for oil as the liberal's and dem's want you to believe......we didnt attack them first..if we really wanted the worlds oil supplies..we'd TAKE ALL of it with a couple of well placed nuclear bombs...nough said..

i am no religious wacko..but i can tell ya this.. history repeats itself......you will soon see the "crusades part II" if these muslim nutcases dont chill out.

[J_Lannon]

Its a tough world, and getting tougher every day.
Its scares the "willies" outta me to think where the United States will be 50 years from now.

Our own Gov't is eating itself from within. Congressmen and Senators only care for their own parties and self interests. Its totally disgraceful how these people get on TV and bash the President, and each others party. Republicans and Democrats both should be shamed by this. I look at all the congressmen and Senators and see a small handfull that are brave enough to tackle tough issues. Then they are smacked back into line by the party leaders. .

1. Our borders are leaking like a sive, and the lobbiests get the gov't to turn a blind eye on the situation by getting them to believe cheap labor is good, and contributing to our wonderful economy. Mean while american sub contracting companies are going under left and right because the illegals work cheaper.

2.The tax system in gone amuck, and the Gov't refuses to show any accountability over spending, and personal (PORK) projects. The Gov't refuses to study the FAIR TAX plan because it takes power away from them. Congressman John Linder has proposed a tax bill that will let the American citizen keep every sigle penny of his/her pay check. Under this bill the american citizen will only pay taxes on items that they purchase. John Linder is now slandered on television and through the halls of congress. Some very creditable institutions have studied the Fair Tax plan, and all agree that it will bring back industry and create a economy boon much larger than has ever been seen in the US.

3. Energy is killing us. The more gas we buy, the more money that gets funneled into terrorists hands. We have enough resourses here in the US to cut off the Saudi's and kooks.... like the idiot down in Venezuala. I know Anwar is a touchy subject for some, but take a look at the Alaskan pipe line. Its been safely on line for 30 years now.
The animal population has acually increased due to the warm oil keeping grass growing and creating bedding places for the wildlife in the winter. We cant drill any wheres in the US without the politicians pandering to the ECO-extremists. I do not see either party getting involved with alternative energy ideas either.I see alot a talking heads on the matter but very litle action. Its mostly been private companies out there in the trench working for better solutions.

4. Race, another touchy subject. Its played like the Drum & Bugle corps by people who personally benefit from it. We have certain people who personally make huge profits by lying to the masses and pilfering huge corporations. The press and the large media companies help stirring the fires as well. I personally see a brighter picture than we are exposed to by the press and TV. America isn't perfect yet with some race issues, but we have come a long way sice the 50's & 60's.

5. 10% of the muslims of the world want to see the US and Isreal die. and western europe for that matter. Thats about a 100,000,000 jihadists. They prove every day that they mean buisness by killing innocent people. But our politicians get all bent outta shape because "CIA BOBBY" slapped "Murderer Mahammed" across his head.? I think some of our politicians could use a good slap. And just think.........we still have the North Korean, China and Iran fiasco ahead of us.


OK.......OK.........Just another rant but,am I being too pessimistic here?:(

[MANDINGO]

When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bike. Then I realised that The Lord doesn't work that way, so I stole one and asked him to forgive me.
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Axon]

botom line
The military need to spend more time and money on keeping the personnel they currently have. I have been in for 14 years and the service looks at anyone with over 10yrs as a "career soldier" and limits the bonuses for staying in.

The recruiter just came to talk with my son and told hime he could get up to 70K for enlisting, WTF, and I get offered $0.00 to re-enlist. :eek: :--|

[johnnyleo11]

botom line
The military need to spend more time and money on keeping the personnel they currently have. I have been in for 14 years and the service looks at anyone with over 10yrs as a "career soldier" and limits the bonuses for staying in.

The recruiter just came to talk with my son and told hime he could get up to 70K for enlisting, WTF, and I get offered $0.00 to re-enlist. :eek: :--|

My favorite is when they offer you so much money for college, but the average soldier, sailor, marine, airman, or coastie is so busy working and away from home that there isn't time to use these benefits.

[J_Lannon]

My favorite is when they offer you so much money for college, but the average soldier, sailor, marine, airman, or coastie is so busy working and away from home that there isn't time to use these benefits.




Or after you retire, and are working your butt off to put your kid through college.

[johnnyleo11]

Or after you retire, and are working your butt off to put your kid through college.

Dependants can use your Montgomery GI Bill if you paid in to it.

Can't complain with $40k available for school.

[NTKG]

Wow,

I really didnt want to post in this because I was worried I would be taken as a something or other or offend someone or whatever. But having read ya'lls posts on the subject, i feel very happy to see you guys being constructive, and honestly you guys all being acountable, and AMERICAN.

Almost;) all of you have made very real and weather i agree with them or not pertinant posts. it is entirely too bad we have all this to worry about.

my opinions? i think we have a media(sorry jeff) that is out of freakin control. but by that standard i cant think of many things in this country that are in control. here is a post from RDT's board....

Noah in 2005

In the year 2005, the Lord came unto Noah, who was now living in the United States, and said, "Once again, the earth has become wicked and over-populated, and I see the end of all flesh before me. Build another Ark and save 2 of every living thing along with a few
good humans."

He gave Noah the blueprints, saying, "You have 6 months to build the Ark before I will start the unending rain for 40 days and 40 nights." Six months later, the Lord looked down and saw Noah weeping in his yard - but no Ark. "Noah!" He roared, "I'm about to start the rain! Where is the Ark?" "Forgive me, Lord," begged Noah, "but things have changed. I needed a building permit. I've been arguing with the inspector about the need for a sprinkler system. My neighbors claim that I've violated the neighborhood zoning laws by building the Ark in my yard and exceeding
the height limitations. We had to go to the Development Appeal Board for a decision. Then the Department of Transportation demanded a bond be posted for the future costs of moving power lines and other overhead obstructions, to
clear the passage for the Ark's move to the sea. I told them that the sea would be coming to us, but they would hear nothing of it. Getting the wood was another problem. There's a ban on cutting local trees in order to save the spotted owl. I tried to convince the environmentalists that I needed the wood to save the owls - but no go! When I started gathering the animals, an animal rights group sued me. They insisted that I was confining wild animals against their will.
They argued the accommodation was too restrictive, and it was cruel and inhumane to put so many animals in a confined space. Then the EPA ruled that I couldn't build the Ark until they'd conducted an environmental impact study on your proposed flood. I'm still trying to resolve a complaint with the Human Rights
Commission on how many minorities I'm supposed to hire for my building crew. Immigration and Naturalization is checking the green-card status of most of the people who want to work. The trades unions say I can't use my sons. They insist I have to hire only Union workers with Ark-building experience. To make matters worse, the IRS seized all my assets, claiming I'm trying to leave the country illegally with endangered species. So, forgive me, Lord, but it would take at least 10 years for me to finish this Ark."

Suddenly the skies cleared, the sun began to shine, and a rainbow stretched across the sky. Noah looked up in wonder and asked,

"You mean you're not going to destroy the world?"

"No," said the Lord. "The government beat me to it.

[NTKG]

So in a country where we sue the gun manufactures for making guns instead of punishing those who use the guns, have a health care system that well.... i wont get into that, but you know where im going with this.

I read of these reports of reservists who are bitching and moaning about having to go to war, well i didnt see anyone bitching and moaning while they were getting paid and barely had a Good Enuf Diploma with 3 kids and 10k of credit card debt. I also know guys who are dying to serve their country but cant because of medical reasons.......

As far as a draft, yes i agree with both of you, the majority would be poor(bc like someone said the wealthy or hell anyone thats not poor who wants to get out if will), and being poor generally less educated, which leads them to postions that are generally less desirable. But their heart in combat i would not question, I'm sure the ratios would be even as far as peoples respective combat effectiveness(if warefare today even really has a place for a infantryman like it used to).... Would I do it? Yes I would have at the age of 18, and yes I do believe I would have been better for it, but yes most of my friends would probably have found a way out of it... But i understand and agree, if you dont wanna be here, get the phock out....

What do i think about the sandbox? I think we should level that phlockin desert a good thing hasnt come out of that region in a long time. but then again one of my best friends and reasons i dont hate every muslim i see is an iraqi who was there during gulf 1.... but i still think we should level that damn place but thanks to cnn we cant...

he told me this, that we will never win that war, not because we cant physically, but because we fight the wrong way. we fight, but we dont attack what is there, the culture and the mindset of the people which is only going to become a greater problem in MY lifetime... so whats there to do? Oil, whatever its going to be a holy war sooner or later, bc it already is... Its like the middle east is tryin to take africas position as the worlds leader in continents unable to as once said "un phlock itself". well how do i feel about it? its like in the movie tears of the son where the priest tells Bruce Willis, "god be with you" and he replies "Father, God left africa a long time ago"

We live in a country now i feel where we are so afraid of stepping on someones toes that we dont even look up to see where it is we're walking to, do u know what i mean? My friends little kids can hear BITCH, ASS, watch softcore porn at 7pm on any channel, but cant say the pledge of allegiance or pray at lunch?!? I have no rights to change anything because my voice alone means nothing in anything i've tried to make an impact in, the government could care less. But they know if I owe them money or say anything bad about them.... I feel very much like I dont know if my existance as an american means anything.... I feel like every year with more opportunity for most people, kids still cant read or write or go to school without shooting eachother or get a job or go to college with all the available aid(and if you tell me you cant get aid for college, your need to find a better way to look).

but at teh same time, i came from a good family and had anything i needed growing up, and still managed to skip school, take 5 years in college, not vote one election, and bitch and complain about "rich people" and like now gripe about our current situation regarding politics. but you know what else? If asked I would serve my country without hesitation. If there was a draft I am most certain at that point I would enlist. That is what i hope makes me a real american. THat regardless of my personal opinions OR YOURS FOR THAT MATTER. I would be fighting for the ideal I have in my head. The America where my uncle went to the army and recieved training to become a DDS. He and the rest of my uncles are now very sucessful dentists. My dad came to this country with nothing and now owns a Home Improvemnt Company in Northern VA making a good living. I got the chance to eat everyday, and go to school and go to college and enjoyed my privelege to hunt and fish as much as I wanted... To be able to drink a beer with other AMERICANS that i meet on the point or on the pier. The idea I have of America and my friends and my family and the sacrifice my father made for me, and the sacrifices that were made by those before me is what would motivate me. i know whatever I complain about I'd be no better anywhere else...it damn well wouldnt be the pay(for me, i know to some in some areas of this country its good money)... as much as i'll complain I'll never BASH my country or its leaders, I am an American, my values are american, and I love all of you, well most of you fellow Americans. I pray for all those overseas that have passed, and i pray for the many more that will pass. But i thank all of them for doing their jobs for me as another American.

sorry for the ramble guys. and hey whatever happens, at least Im not french.

neil

[J_Lannon]

School to me.................was just formal training. Listening to good people is where I got my education.

[NTKG]

i walked away from college understanding that i didnt learn all that much, but it was a test to be independant and make the right choices and be able to do what needed to be done in 4 years... like i said... i took 5

[johnnyleo11]

You don't need a draft to be an enlistee. That's the beauty of a volunteer force. Most people that are in want to be in. I feel for those servicemembers that are getting locked in with the stop loss, but you have to know what you signed up for. After my father retired after 25 years in the Army, he was still on IRR.

Now that you have your undergrad, you can always gather a commission and be guaranteed work for quite some time.

[Malakas07]

it was a test to be independant and make the right choices and be able to do what needed to be done in 4 years

You said it exactly. A test to understand responsibilities and understand what needs to be done.

No matter how long it takes.

It's alot harder then what people make it out to be.

[SALTSHAKER]

I'm with you OLDSALT went in 58 USN for the $79.00 s month, cut in in half, and if you borrow five for six (I think we all did once at least) puts a hurting on ya. I reupped in 62 for four and got $`1200 I was living large...LOL saltshaker