Braid Casting Leader [Archive]

Sgt_Slough

12-18-2006, 06:32 PM

I am starting this thread because of comments in Catfish713's "Shock Knot" thread . . .

Another option for small knots is to use braid as a shocker. It is small for its diameter.

I thought using braid as a shocker was a no-no due to it's non existent stretch. That's why most of us who use braid don't tie our terminal tackle directly onto it and use a mono or fluoro shocker.

GODAMIGHTY! here we go again. :rolleyes:
. . . Please don't start the braid VS. mono thing again.

Well, I would like to understand the "NO BRAID SHOCKER" rule and why some anglers hold it with such vigor.

I don't want to hear arguments about braid being no good at the Point or you can't drag a fish on the beach or it cuts your finger . . . Those issues are easily remedied; I want to center this discussion on just the physics of the rod, line and sinker.

Here's my position:

I am of the mind that the term "shock leader" is a misnomer; in a properly executed high energy cast there is no "shock" per-se, the power is a smooth progression.

IMO, the requirement of a heavier leader for casting is just to resist the centrifugal force of the sinker; a 5oz weight swinging on a 20+ foot radius at 180 mph "weighs" 50+ lbs.

I use braid running line on all my distance set-ups (spinning) and I use a braid casting leader. I have used that braid combo for well over 10 years now and have never had a problem with rod failure. (With my conversion to Fuji Lowrider guides I really don't know how you would use a mono casting leader anyways.)

My position is that the rod is an incredible absorber of energy . . . The thought that one must rely on a heavy length of mono to "protect" the rod from the "shock" of the cast seems nonsensical to me.

As I see it, my job is to impart as much controlled and progressively building energy as I can to the rod. The rod's job is to transfer that energy to the sinker. Placing a component between the rod and the sinker that saps energy and defeats the full and complete transfer of my imparted energy to the sinker just doesn't make any sense to me . . .

So the question is; does a rod really need a "shock absorber" between it and the sinker?

To me it's like telling someone they need to run 10lbs of air in ther tires to "protect" the car's springs . . . sure, it gives a smoother ride but ya ain't getting top perfomance. :p

So, for me, I don't use a "shock leader" because in my cast there is no " shock;" I use a casting leader. ;)

Catfish713

12-18-2006, 06:50 PM

Hay Sgt if you read my last comment on my post you'l know what i mean. I agree with you i don't like to use a "shock leader" but i don't like to use a casting leader either. the leader i was talking about is actually ment to protect my braid running line in case i hook a shark and it decides to roll over on it. the other reason i have learned is that if you hook into a kingfish that hits your bait at top speed and your drag is set even a little bit too high it can snap 80# line and supposidly even the small amount of give produced by a mono leader can give enough time for your drag to catch up and start releasing line.
but i agree with you in that you can grab the braided running line and not have a problem as lon as your hand is protected (i wear an old batting glove) my bigest reason is the protection from shark rollovers. other than that i would be just fine using my regular running line and a bite leader.

Tight lines and God bless. <>< <>< <>< :cool:

Sgt_Slough

12-18-2006, 07:03 PM

al bundy

12-18-2006, 07:29 PM

FOR THE PAST YEAR OR I,V BEEN USING 100LB. FIRE LINE XDS as a shocker or what ever tou want to callit !!
i like it when sarks rool on it and its heave enuff to not cut my hands but thin enuff not to make a big not.
allso use it my mono spooled reels
for those resons and i put enuff on to cover the hole spoll. witch helps with line brake down from the sun when that rod my sit in the all day not be used

Railroader

12-18-2006, 07:30 PM

Very interesting observations, Sarge...Got me thinkin'....

On my smaller surf rods, I have 14# mono main line, with 25# "shock leader". These rods are usually throwing a 2 oz. and small bait.

On my larger surf rods, I have either 17# or 20# main line, and 40# or 50# "shocker". These throw 4 oz. and up.

The reason for the "Shockers", is that my cast (which is by no means pretty:rolleyes: ) is too powerful to throw a 2 oz. lead on 14# line. I'd crack off every time. If I load my 6500's with 20#...I dump the spool, with no line left for a fish to take.

The same holds true with the 525Mag or the 7000CT...Can't throw a 4oz. on 20# without crack-offs, so a 40# shocker. Sure can't fill the reels with 40#....:eek:

So, on to the question.

Why NOT use say, 30# and 65# Braid as "shock" leader? These would surely hold up to the sinker's weight, and actually impart ALL accelleration of the cast to the payload. This SHOULD result in more speed, and therefore distance...since you'd now be using ALL the power you put into the rod, with none lost stretching the leader.

Well, y'all, have at it!!!:p

mantriumph

12-18-2006, 08:13 PM

Why NOT use say, 30# and 65# Braid as "shock" leader? These would surely hold up to the sinker's weight, and actually impart ALL accelleration of the cast to the payload. This SHOULD result in more speed, and therefore distance...since you'd now be using ALL the power you put into the rod, with none lost stretching the leader.
:eek: ...Now i understand why so many rods are snapping,lol.

barty b

12-18-2006, 08:39 PM

There is a give and take with braided casting leader and mono leader.
When I was introduced to "power casting", i was introduced to braided shock leader. A line that has some stretch will act as a slingshot and absorb power during the power stroke then release it in an amplified state. A non stretch leader will only transfer the power you put into the cast with no amplification.

I had never had any problems with braid as shock leader or casting leader.
Actually I went back and asked the guy who turned me on to it to explain the reason behind using braid for this purpose and his answer was simple....Knot size. Yup that is it. High break strength, low diameter knot size. Nothing more,nothing less. You can tie a uni to uni knot from 14lb tritanium to a 100lb power pro leader and the knot is so small you dont really notice it. Even an albright or that knot I use that i don't know the name of cannot match the compact size of a braid to mono uni to uni.
Everything else is personal preference. Some people think braid is not abraision resistans, BS! I use it for inshore sheepshead fishing and trust me is will take a hell of a lot more abuse than mono. I have NEVER had the connection between braid and mono fail, It has always been the mono that failed.
I am currently using Sakuma mono for my casting leaders, it is not available here in the states and is about as much as braid but well worth it. It is pound for pound 1/2 the diameter of standard mono. 80lb dia. is the same as 50lb big game. It still wont tie as small of a knot connection as braid to mono.
So there you have it.
I would like to here Tommy Farmers take on which is better for distance. Braid is not allowed in regulation casting tournaments (not real sure why but it isn't)

derekxec

12-18-2006, 08:43 PM

if your rod snaps get a better rod....

Railroader

12-18-2006, 08:46 PM

(singing...badly:p )

And the wheel.....Goes Round.....And Round!!!

barty b

12-18-2006, 08:51 PM

if your rod snaps get a better rod....

YUP!

Railroader

12-18-2006, 08:57 PM

Wonder where that feller went that was such a strong caster that he BROKE OM-12 Heavys???:p :p

mantriumph

12-18-2006, 08:59 PM

barty b

12-18-2006, 09:08 PM

Team Daiwa,St.Croix and Tica,,,,,,,,are there other brands that i have bin missing?,,I have never broke a rod dureing takeoff myself,but it appears that rod snaps occur,And in most cases i wouldnt blame the rod.:D
Sure are,
Zipplex,Connoflex,Century,Rainshadow/Allstar,Greys,
I have never broken a rod either but have seen (video) the world record holder snap a Century Kompressor. Or was it a WR300, can't remember.

KT_UMCP

12-18-2006, 09:10 PM

I have never used a shock leader. Caught plently of fish w/out a problem of beaching it. When i get snagged I always have handy with me a thick fat piece of wooden dal rod and wind the braid and tug on the dal. To me the more knots there are the more chance of me losing the fish and also mono can become frayed rather quickly and snap. I have nevre had a problem with tieing my rig right onto the braid. Caught some 30+ stripers and skates and nice blues and when fishing from surf I bring it in with the wave to beach it. It works for me so why change it.

I don't often use weights more then 8 ounce. Unless I am out there and there is some severe waves then I may bust out a 10. Had no problems getting it out there without the shockleader.

Cluck

12-18-2006, 09:10 PM

I have been using a braid shockleader for about 4 years now.At present for my surf spinners I use 20lb suffix or 20lb calcutta braid with a 65lb power pro shock.I power cast factory and custom rods with no problems what so ever.I use a uni-uni knot for connecting leader and running line.I've seen rods snapped in half from brute force on a cast but with log drop and slow delievery in a power cast should be no problem.I was some what leary when I first converted and at 265lbs I was figuring which rod I would snap first but to present none to date.Good topic to start Sarge.

Railroader

12-18-2006, 09:20 PM

I actually DID break a rod while casting. I had used a couple of 8' Eagle Claw rods for a couple of years, with no complaints.

As I was learning to put some power into my cast, it happened. Snapped the top half, right in the middle, with a two oz....

I bought better rods.:cool:

barty b

12-18-2006, 09:26 PM

I had used a couple of 8' Eagle Claw rods for a couple of years..

I bought better rods.:cool:

ROFLMAO! :D :D

emanuel

12-19-2006, 03:05 AM

I haven't slung for distance in a couple years, but when I did, I used #50 Stren Magnaflex for a shocker, even if it was only a couple feet worth. You have to have some stretch, somewhere. Braid is great but you have to have something that will give a little. Even if you're throwing #100 PP on your G. Loomis custom rod with that limited edition platinum/titanium Zebco spincast, you still need some stretch.:D

JAM

12-19-2006, 03:46 PM

Catfish713

12-19-2006, 04:18 PM

Has anyone ever used weed eater chord for leader material? it has about .065" diameter :eek: this is super thick stuff it seams like it would work but it makes pretty big knots.

terpfan

12-19-2006, 05:18 PM

Are rubber bands or steel cable used in a sling shots...

the comparision should be more like if rubberband is used in a bow.. although i might have to agree on the smoother cast.
as for me, when using mono shock leader, it feels like i don't get most power out of my cast. (but it may be better for OTG and Pendulum where longer load is necessary)

narfpoit

12-19-2006, 05:19 PM

Has anyone ever used weed eater chord for leader material? it has about .065" diameter :eek: this is super thick stuff it seams like it would work but it makes pretty big knots.

I have used it but not for casting leader and I used crimps it is like using #400 mono with great abbrasion resistance. It is really only good for shark fishing. I prefer to just use regular mono though.

John

sprtsracer

12-19-2006, 05:57 PM

From the physics stand point a fishiing rod is like a trebuchet...The flex in the shock in conjunction with the bend of the rod loads up and releases energy in a smooth manner... Are rubber bands or steel cable used in a sling shots... To ridged will create a herky jerky type of load and release... Too fast if you will.. It will load too fast and want to release just as fast...

Heres an anology that sums it all up..
Trying too find distance by using a braid over a mono is like trying to tell the difference in wether or not the tide is rising by peeing in the ocean... JAM :)

For those that are interested...
The trebuchet was the dominant siege weapon in Europe from 850AD to 1350AD, lasting 100 years after the introduction of gunpowder. In England it was called an Ingenium, and the technicians which worked on the weapon were Ingeniators (Engineers). Larger versions were able to throw large stones, cows or even shunned negotiators. Rotting flesh was also popular.

The trebuchet operates by harnessing the potential energy of a suspended weight, and demonstrates many physical pricipals. There are multiple variables in the design which can be adjusted to optimize range and throw-weight. This model has achieved a range of 120 feet with a 7 lb. rock, so far.

"Hurling" has become a gentleman's sport in Texas, where a active hurling society exists. Work is being completed on "Thor", a Trebuchet with a 100' throwing arm using a 55,000 lb weight. The design should allow the hurling of '57 Buicks. In earlier days some Texas trebuchets have thrown 'astro-aguanauts'.
That got me to thinking...a magged 6/0 with a catapult...hmmmmm...better than the "potato gun. As far as checking the tide by peeing in the ocean, I just measure the depth of the water in inches with my unit when I start and again when I finish:D :D :D

Sgt_Slough

12-19-2006, 09:23 PM

From the physics stand point a fishiing rod is like a trebuchet...

Only if you are using a rod with absolutely zero flex. The trebuchet's arm imparts energy through gravity driven compound centrifugal force. Simply put, it throws a Unitech cast with no flex in the "rod" . . .

The flex in the shock in conjunction with the bend of the rod loads up and releases energy in a smooth manner... Are rubber bands or steel cable used in a sling shots...

Even worse analogy, the arms of the slingshot impart no energy to the projectile; they are merely rigid supports. At least in the trebuchet the arm is not static.

To ridged will create a herky jerky type of load and release... Too fast if you will.. It will load too fast and want to release just as fast...

I agree that the rod loads quicker and deeper than with mono . . . Which means that there is more potential energy to be transferred to the sinker with less "work." For OTG casting I think that a braid casting leader helps get the sinker up and going and the quick deep load helps in finishing fast because the sinker gets quickly behind the tip. As long as the caster can keep his speed increasing to the hit, the rod gets locked and stays locked until release.

Trying too find distance by using a braid over a mono is like trying to tell the difference in wether or not the tide is rising by peeing in the ocean..

I know I can cast further with braid running line . . . When I first tried PowerPro well over ten years ago (then the line was marketed as high performance kite string) I never considered using a mono "shock" leader and I have not had one on my braid rods ever . . . I can not say nor have I argued here that a braid casting leader will increase distance, only that using one in conjunction with a refined casting motion does not increase the probability of rod failure.

the comparision should be more like if rubberband is used in a bow..

BINGO! Perfect comparison; when the energy is transferred to the projectile by a moving or flexing component, the most efficient transfer occurs when the link between does not stretch . . . even in the trebuchet.

"Hurling" has become a gentleman's sport in Texas, where a active hurling society exists.

There is a large one up here as well; Delaware hosts the Punkinchuckin World Championships. Traditional as well as modern trebuchets are well represented.

http://www.punkinchunkin.com

http://www.punkinchunkin.com/images/galleries/2006/sanders/images/DSC00245_jpg.jpg

Cluck

12-19-2006, 09:38 PM

What size clamp do I need to mount that thing on a 1569?

Newsjeff

12-19-2006, 10:27 PM

Is that a pic of Flea's bait launcher????

sand.trout

12-19-2006, 11:41 PM

Well I could care less if you guys use shock or not, mono or braid as long as you're happy and catch fish.
From my own experience throwing 8 and a bunker head.... there will be a 50# or more shock leader every time.
I don't give a dam about sling shots, trebuchets or rubber bands. It's more about safety. When you have a zing pow and kill the guy down the beach by sticking some lead in his skull you might reconsider.

ASK4Fish

12-19-2006, 11:50 PM

Shooter

12-20-2006, 12:13 AM

Some if not alot also has to do with how stiff the rod is that the weight is being thrown with,,, if your casting with a very limber rod then the chance of a smaller line snapping is decreased but put the same weight and line on a much stiffer rod and watch it snap off.

If your out casting for distance and no one is around then run any kind of "Shock leader" or none but if your on the beach and around other folks please for the safety of others run a heavy enough shock leader that you will not have to explain to a 6' 8" very upset monster why your 8 oz sinker went threw his winshield because your trying to get an extra 3 yards to your cast.

Drumdum

12-20-2006, 05:31 AM

I could care less if you use braid,mono,b line,guidebrod,or even rubberbands to tie on your sinker,bait and fight a fish with.. But to no use shock of any kind?? You need either a running line that is equivilent of shock or shock.. I've seen it break off with shock.. Throwing eight oz and bait without shock on a pier or a beach with folks fishin anywhere nearby IS ASKING FOR TROUBLE!
"I haven't broken off yet".. YET is the KEY WORD.... Just let me know when you are castin so I can get the h*ll outta your way,thankya... Oh this is not IMHO OR IMO,it's fact,just like wearing a sealtbelt,folks... ;)

Railroader

12-20-2006, 08:27 AM

i've casted 8 oz. fine w/o a shocker on 20#...

i've also thrown a 5 oz. w/no shocker on 14#...

and these casts are definately not lacking in power...

ROTFLMAO:D :D :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

VICIII

12-20-2006, 08:48 AM

Mark G

12-20-2006, 11:45 AM

i've casted 8 oz. fine w/o a shocker on 20#...i usually use a shocker but when i had none there was no diff in performance for me...i also usually throw a 5 oz. w/ only a 30 or 40lb shocker...

i've also thrown a 5 oz. w/no shocker on 14#...

and these casts are definately not lacking in power...

Need to get me some of that mono your using:rolleyes:

I've snapped off too many 4oz weights with 20lb test line (before I ever knew what a shock leader was) to know how dangerous it can be. For the most part I just got tired of losing weights and rigs, but safety is definitely the prime consideration.

I know Sarge is a die hard spinner guy, how many are using braid and braid shockers on conventional gear? I recently tested braid on my metal setup, an abu levelwind reel, and like it so far. I still use a short piece of mono to tie the lure to and usually a quality swivel to attach the mono leader to the braid. Haven't found a braid to mono knot I trust yet. My main reason for the mono is so that it breaks, not the expensive braid, if it comes down to NEEDING to break off.

I haven't had the oppurtunity :rolleyes: to play a big fish on all braid yet, I think that as pointed out it is good to have some stretch available when a big fish makes a hard run, more forgiving, particularly if your reel drag starts to give you issues.:eek:

A braid shocker might be ok, on a mono main line and may improve distance, (small knot,no stretch) as Sarge pointed out.

I have some 80 pp laying around and may experiment with it as a shocker. I'll post up after I have a chance to get out and test it.

I may not like this small knot for throwing big weights ( 8 and up) because I actually like my shocker knot to have a bit of size to it on conventional gear. I use the knot to get extra purchase by pressing on the knot with a leather thumb guard. - Helps prevent spool slippage during the power stroke of the cast

Cor

12-20-2006, 08:29 PM

“Horses for courses” is always the motto in this game.

I have used braid as a leader for the past 5 years and been extremely happy with the result. Notice I don’t call it a “shock leader” which is a term not used here.

The purpose of this “leader” is to provide
• extra strength when casting a heavy weigh and
• when fighting a strong fish for the last few yards and
• provide extra abrasion resistance (here braid loses out somewhat)

I once saw a Japanese movie where the guy used some sort of elastic as a leader. This very quickly took the fight out of the fish (not very sporting) in my opinion. Perhaps that would more suitably be called a “shock leader”….LOL

Whether I use braid or mono as a leader does not have any significant impact on my cast, as I would tend to compensate for any slight stretch in the leader, I guess.

JAM

12-21-2006, 11:13 AM

through someones windshield or worse yet some ones head you might change your mind then... It would be safe to say that 90% of the folks who fish are against this idea of braid as shocker or leader or what ever the hell you all want to call it..
New things and Ideas are great but when something is wrong its just dead wrong.. When safty is out and out ignored, if and when something happens that would make it neglegent on your part..

If you are looking for distance from line then you are looking in the wrong place.. Stlye and timeing get you distance, good equipment gets you distance.. The amount of distance you will get from line is realitivly small... Do what ya want just don't do it around me..

I know plenty of fellas down here young and old that will out and out spank most of you guys on distance with mono and a shock.. And thats the fact JACK....

Like I said do what ya want just don't do it around me... Its safety fellas combined with a little respect... Some one is going to get hurt, mark my words...

Oh by the way Merry Christmass folks... See ya on da beach .. JAM out :D

Cor

12-21-2006, 11:42 AM

through someones windshield or worse yet some ones head you might change your mind then... It would be safe to say that 90% of the folks who fish are against this idea of braid as shocker or leader or what ever the hell you all want to call it..
New things and Ideas are great but when something is wrong its just dead wrong.. When safty is out and out ignored, if and when something happens that would make it neglegent on your part.........

........Like I said do what ya want just don't do it around me... Its safety fellas combined with a little respect... Some one is going to get hurt, mark my words...

Oh by the way Merry Christmass folks... See ya on da beach .. JAM out :D

JAM,
You don't say what you find unacceptable about braid as a leader. From a safety point of view it is stronger for its diameter then mono and I have never had it break on me with a cast.

People generally don't like it because it is regarded as too visible to the fish, but I don't think it is a safety issue.

Catfish713

12-21-2006, 11:48 AM

Part of the reason that i don't use a "shocker" or casting leader is that i normally don't use a power cast. I walk out to the outer edge of the
1st or 2nd sandbar and use a modified cast that is much like the on the ground cast but my line hangs out about 6' and is suspended in the air above the water being out this far there is no one for me to hit :) (i'm usualy away from anyone else but my family anyway and they stand on the opposite side of me if i cast from the beach.) being right handed and casting on that side its just common sense to not have anyone on that side of me when i cast. i don't usualy use anything bigger than 4oz and bait so casting with 20# or 30# line has never been a problem.

Big Rad

12-21-2006, 12:12 PM

just a for instance......

since I have 60# PP on my rod and I'm casting 5 n bait; can you please tell me where the safety of my surroundings is put at an enhanced risk?;)

Lipyourown

12-21-2006, 01:15 PM

60# PP is really about 120# test. (is your rod rated to 120#?) Jump up to 8 ounces and you may break your rod on a power cast. Also, grabbing braid to land a big fish can really cut you bad. If you use a plastic slip sinker that braid will break the plastic slide eventually and that weight is now a missle. Mono leaders protect you, your gear and your neighbors. It is better for landing fish and it avoids spooking leader shy fish in the daytime. If you have the whole beach to yourself and are targeting croaker, use anything you want.

JAM

12-21-2006, 02:30 PM

Mark Lindsey

12-21-2006, 02:34 PM

I'm with you JAM

Dyhard

12-21-2006, 03:54 PM

Mark G

12-21-2006, 04:50 PM

I run 50 to 130 # direct snelled to the hook.. The 130 allows me to wrap the line around my hand and drag the fish to the beach..

. Lipyourown nailed the rest of it.. Your rods and reel are made for like 20 pound test with 60 on it ya tend to bend shafts on the reel, because it is putting too much force on it..

Like I said do what ever ya want just not around me.. I'll keep catching my drummies and stripers the old fashion way....

Love braided line on my spinners for trout and macks but not on my heavers... JAM

How a long a section of 130 Jam? Trying to picture this set up. Most people tie short fish finders (I use 125lb) with a barrel swivel to the 50lb shocker. But a 2-4" section is not near enough to wrap my hand around.

Understandable that braid can make a mess of tangles when fishing in crowds, but not ready to buy the safety issue- mcmahon swivel can be used in place of plastic slide- and if 60lb pp really tests out to 125lb, it's a lot safer than 50lb mono.

I'll stick to mono cause it's cheap-not because it's any safer.

Newsjeff

12-21-2006, 04:51 PM

I agree with JAM - to a certain extent.

Yes, 90% of people don't use braid for a shock leader.

I don't. And I won't. I'll stick to what works for me.

But I don't see a problem with using a stronger braided line for a shocker.

The good Sgt. makes some great points. He sure has a nack for putting well thought, informative posts on the boards. They might not be the most popular posts, but they do seem to make sense. :p

Just because braid doesn't stretch doesn't make it more susceptible to breaking does it? I dunno for sure, but I wouldn't think so.

Another well known surfcaster from Florida, Earl Brinn, uses braid for a shocker.

Maybe these guys are onto something.

As far as using a short length of braid at the end of my mono main line - fergetaboutit. I like my skin.

JAM

12-21-2006, 05:08 PM

I cast with a 7 foot drop four foot of it is 130 direct to the hook the mcmann slides all the way down the 130 sitting on the hook. The weight is the lowest point in the equation.. No bead cause it causes helicoptering... The 50 # connect to a 2/0 swivel and the 130 is on the bottom of the swivel.. It is a nick rig as I call it cause Nick from Tw's kind of came up with it and alot of us have copied it.. Now that is a way to get distance from equipment, with the weight being the lowest point in the chain when casted then slides up the 130 lie a regular fish finder rig.. If that isn't enough and ya can't get a mental picture of the rig I will gladly post a pic of one... JAM

Mark G

12-21-2006, 05:13 PM

I got it. Your right about the weight needing to be the low point. Thats the way pulley rigs and othe long distance set ups are designed, helps ensure the weight is towing the bait properly.

Big Rad

12-21-2006, 06:11 PM

I use spinning equipment. As for the comments about breaking a rod, I'll buy a new one:D The other "safety issues" see the Sgt's initial post.

I am curious; are the points put forward by Jam and SC because of a direct fear of braid users? I do carry multiple spools so the leader shy thing is puzzling too. If everybody around me is catching fish and I'm not I am intelligent enough to switch my tactics.:cool:

Catfish713

12-21-2006, 06:34 PM

WOA guys I think this has gone way too far. everybody has the right to express their opinion but we don't need to be shootin each other down for it. :eek: We are all brothers and sisters here and if you dissagree with something someone says ignore it and do what works for you :D personaly my tactics never stay the same for very long :rolleyes: i am always changing something to make it work a little better or change for a different species :) if thats not the way you like it I don't have a problem with that I would love to hear the way you do things but don't diss me for the way I do things just stick with your tactics and i'll stick with mine. if i find something that works better then that's what i'll do. We are all one big family here at Pierandsurf so lets act like it. :cool:

Tight lines and God bless to all <>< ;)

Newsjeff

12-21-2006, 07:04 PM

Sorry, but I just gotta hijack this thread for a moment.
No bead cause it causes helicoptering... The 50 # connect to a 2/0 swivel and the 130 is on the bottom of the swivel.. It is a nick rig as I call it cause Nick from Tw's kind of came up with it and alot of us have copied it..
JAM, I've been using the "Nick Rig" for a while now. I just never used a swivel between the shock line and the 100lb (or 130lb in your case).

Interesting.

I'm guessing the swivel makes it easier to take the rig off the main line without losing any shock leader. Or maybe I'm missing something?

I still use a bead. I never heard of a bead causing helicoptering. I could be wrong on this one, too.

Thanks for the info. Looking forward to your reply.

JAM

12-21-2006, 07:27 PM

I thought people were playing nice in this post its been semi cilvil I thought... Merry Christmass to all...

Jeff the bead on the bottom by the hook if you are using one there it will heli a bit but with the 2/0 swivel between the 50 and the 130 negates the need for a bead @ all.. Great rig tell Nick thatnks every time I see him...

Just so some of you guys know.. Arch for example caught close to 100 citation Drum this fall.. Russell the Muscle was right behind him.. Zinp Pow caught 34 citation drum this fall.. And the list goes on..Pat was above zing with over 50 .. None of these folks find the need for braid to catch fish.. Braid leader or braid of any kind...I will stay with what is proven by real fisherman, not what is dreampt up by internet fishermen no disrespect meant @ all with that comment.. :) With the no give factor no strech factor , be prepared to loose a lot of big fish right @ your feet when ya puul the hook slam out.. Like I said no fear of braid I use it and I use it corectly.... JAM out

barty b

12-21-2006, 10:46 PM

Sgt_Slough

12-22-2006, 01:22 AM

I know Sarge is a die hard spinner guy, how many are using braid and braid shockers on conventional gear?

I don't think that the issue comes up much because most guys (that I know) who put braid on their conventionals (surf sized, Daiwa SL's, 525's Abu 6500-7500) go with a break strength up there close to "shocker" strength just to keep the line diameter close so the spool's speed remains the same. Most of the guys up here just do a straight shot of 50/65lb line . . .

The spinner crowd is where the small diameter running lines are really used. I am now sold on Suffix Braid in 20lb for my 5/6oz distance rods and use 65lb PowerPro for a casting leader. On my 1569 I use 30lb running line and 100lb casting leader.

It would be safe to say that 90% of the folks who fish are against this idea of braid as shocker or leader or what ever the hell you all want to call it..

Perhaps where you fish . . . Up here it is a very common practice; believe it or not even in crowded tournaments.

New things and Ideas are great but when something is wrong its just dead wrong.. When safty is out and out ignored, if and when something happens that would make it neglegent on your part..

You haven't told me why using a braid casting leader is wrong . . . Just cause the Point gurus don't like it is not a reason that the 99.999999% of the rest of us surf fishermen should give the opinion credence. I fish on a team with some of the best anglers on the East coast competing against dozens of teams in 15+ tournaments a year, are you really saying that a significant number of us are foolhardy googans just jumping on the "new thing" of braid casting leaders?

Like I said, I've been doing this "new thing" for over a dozen years without incident . . . That's why I'm asking the question . . .

If you are looking for distance from line then you are looking in the wrong place.. Stlye and timeing get you distance, good equipment gets you distance.. The amount of distance you will get from line is realitivly small...

I know plenty of fellas down here young and old that will out and out spank most of you guys on distance with mono and a shock.. And thats the fact JACK....

Again, I'm not arguing that a braid casting leader increases distance . . . I am asking WHY, SPECIFICALLY, many think that using one is such a bad idea . . . Time and time I read opinions like yours, strong on conviction and weak on evidence or cognizant argument. Your estimate of 90% of fishermen (that you know I assume) don't use braid "shock" leaders is hardly a reason for me, not at the "Point," to choose against using braid.

Look, I can state with certainty that among anglers I know and fish with up here, not many fishes with the style of equipment you use and even fewer fish with the rigs that you and your experts use. Is that truth about how "Jersey Guys" fish a debate point you would consider to choose your fishing tackle for the Point? I hope not. Don't be insulted then if I consider your reccomendations of little value to me. It seems you can only offer advice and info on that single narrowly focused method of angling on that postage stamp sized piece of real estate . . . and you feel that's the only way of doin' it.

Now I guess I'll offer my casting qualifications; don't want to be lumped in with the unwashed masses groveling at the feet of the great Cape Point casters.

I consider myself a slightly above average caster on the casting court when gauged on raw numbers against the casters using tournament gear. I do however use my regular spinning fishing tackle and only cast Off the Ground.

On the beach under fishing conditions I would claim to be a well above average caster (because I actually realize an increase in distance getting rid of the mono).

On a field, accurately measured I realize an 8% increase in distance changing mono for braid and I consider that a significant gain. In competition I cast a spinner 617ft OTG with .31 & .75 mono and 150gm; I have measured a cast of 660ft OTG with 20lb Suffix & 65lb PP casting leader and 150gm. Under fishing conditions I think the difference is greater, probably more than 10% because I would not be using 12lb test mono to fish 5+oz and bait at distance.

And just for argument's sake I've cast a Hatteras rig with an 8oz pyramid and a 2" X 1-1/2" X 1/2" chunk of ethafoam sim-bait (like seen HERE (http://www.pierandsurf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20718) but bigger) 407ft with my RS1569 w/ Fuji Lowriders and a Daiwa Tournament S-6000T spooled with 30lb / 100lb braid.

I'm not a newbie, I'm not courting disaster or wanton bloody carnage upon bystanders on the beach with my braid casting leader. I've fished your precious Point and I am actually capable of conforming to local tackle customs. I have even been seen throwing my Newell's and Abu's on occasion (all with mono) and throw them well.

In this thread I'm just asking a simple question and as yet I've been underwhelmed by the responses. I didn't realize asking would lead to me defending myself and my fishing/casting "cred" but perhaps it will lead to being taken seriously and not dismissed as a deluded goofball for using a braid "shocker."

Sgt_Slough

12-22-2006, 01:35 AM

60# PP is really about 120# test. (is your rod rated to 120#?) Jump up to 8 ounces and you may break your rod on a power cast.

The rod's weight rating should be what it can cast under a fully loaded condition. This is not dependent on what line test is being used for a casting leader.

I would recommend reading John Holden's books on casting. He uses the term "locked" to characterize a rod at full flex or loaded (typically this is when the tip and the butt are pointing 90 degrees apart). He describes achieving this condition by using a rubber band as an example.

If you were to place a big rubber band between your thumbs you could pull and bounce it back and forth quite a distance. But, when steadily increasing pressure is applied you reach a point where the band becomes rigid; it might as well be a piece of rope. You can not pull your thumbs any further apart . . . The band is "locked" at that point, its fibers can not store any more energy. That is the state that you want the rod to be in when you cast . . . when you "hit it."

Consider that the number of casters that can actually fully lock a rod rated for 6-8 ounces is a small minority. What happens when they cast? What happens when a caster "hits it" with a rod only partially loaded? Well, what would happen if you had the rubber band stretched halfway to its lock and then you suddenly pulled your thumbs apart? The energy you just applied was mostly soaked up by the band's (rod's) material. How much energy was actually imparted or passed to your thumbs? Was it even close to the pressure you felt with the band "locked?" It seems no matter how fast you move or how hard you suddenly pull you can't match the energy stored with the slow progression to lock. . .

That sudden force exerted on the band (rod) in an unlocked state, is just soaked up and not efficiently transferred to your thumbs (or sinker). That's why a good caster can make a very, very long cast look effortless and a guy hitting it as hard as he can is working three times as hard and going nowhere.

What does this have to do with this discussion?

It's my argument that a mono shock leader places an additional energy absorbing component into the casting "system." The question thus raised is, for the average (or even above average caster) is such additional energy absorption (and not transference) necessary or desired understandig how a rod locks?

Back to the weight rating for a minute:

We often see written here about a rod's "sweet spot," a 4 - 8 ounce rod might have a sweet spot of 6 ounces. I should be pretty confident that I will not be able to snap that rod casting 6 ounces. But, ratings are only a rough guide; on my old All Star 11-9 (rated 6-12???), I can lock that thing with a baseball (5.25oz); would I cast that rod with more than 6 ounces full power even with a mono shocker? No way . . .
Here is the 11'-9" and a baseball just before the "hit."

http://pierandsurf.com/photopost/data/500/baseball.jpg

No rod should be cast full power without a learning curve. Many rods today have incorrect ratings and you need to find a rod's particular sweet spot for your casting motion.

Also, grabbing braid to land a big fish can really cut you bad. If you use a plastic slip sinker that braid will break the plastic slide eventually and that weight is now a missle

My most used rig is a dropper style, hook leader(s) located above the weight off a main rig "body" of mono exceeding the 10/1 formula. The body is usually at least 4 feet long, plenty to grab and land a fish. On those rare occasions when I use a fishfinder I use a 5 foot length of 100lb mono for the sinker slide to ride on. Even though there are braid proof slides now I don't use them to ride on the braid because of the twisting that sometimes occurs because of braids limpness.

Sgt_Slough

12-22-2006, 01:45 AM

I will stay with what is proven by real fisherman, not what is dreampt up by internet fishermen no disrespect meant @ all with that comment.. :) With the no give factor no strech factor , be prepared to loose a lot of big fish right @ your feet when ya puul the hook slam out.. Like I said no fear of braid I use it and I use it corectly.... JAM out

Oh Boy . . .

Just when I thought my previous posts were too harsh . . .

Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!

Sgt_Slough

12-22-2006, 02:19 AM

I gotta agree with the last part of your paragraph Jam, I know for a fact that Pompano have very soft mouths and every good Pomp fisherman in florida knows this. I don't know too many that use braid as a shock leader for Pomps because of that.
The no stretch factor can be compensated by letting up on the drag,but why? I would like to here a REAL advantage of braid over mono for shock leader,Just one.
Like Jeff said Earl Brinn uses braid, He is a friend of mine in the FL Surfcasters and the one who introduced me to powercasting w/ braid. I switched this year out of my own curiosity and have found no REAL advantage of braid over mono.

I know that Frosty and others in Florida have been a big proponent of the Fuji Lowrider guide system. I use them as well. I tried casting a mono shock thru them and was not at all successful. What do the Florida Pomp guys with Lowriders do for shock/casting leader?

What's the difference (for this argument) between 20lb running line and a 50lb braid "shock" and someone running straight 40 - 50lb braid and no "shock?"

Braid casting leader advantages? Small knot is first for me. I also think it lets me get the sinker up and clear quicker on my OTG. I think it makes the rod load quicker and I think it makes for a very crisp release. The release of line tension becomes in instant affair, the rod is quicker to unload and get the sinker away and I think it's quicker to recover. That sudden release lends itself better to spinning where a snap at the end is not entirely undesirable.
It does make release timing a bit more critical but when you get it down a lob goes 100 yards.

Cor

12-22-2006, 02:20 AM

Thanks guys.
This makes one of the most interesting and informative reads I have seen in a long while.:D

Happy Holidays to you all!

terpfan

12-22-2006, 03:10 AM

sarge said everything i wanted to say and more.:) :) he is one of the most articulate person in a fishing forum.

Big Rad

12-22-2006, 07:47 AM

I didn't say anything that would change the tone of this thread. I asked a question and got what amounted (IMH0) to a condescending response which could have insulted my intelligence (if I had any). I thought that the "shock-leader" was determined by a relationship between weight of the terminal gear to the strength of the line.

Please pardon my interruption.......my honest attempt to gather info:eek: :p :p :D :D

JAM

12-22-2006, 10:41 AM

RR and the sarge Like stated in all my previious posts do what ya want..

A. a fity pound drum will kick you but with braded line, the ng give in the line will hav ya bouncin all over the beach.

B. Grab a hold of that sucker when your chest deepin water with a large fish on and you'll be chummin up hammer heads.

C. With no give upon your back swing I believe it can and will grenade a blank if enough power is used.. I have friends that can grenade blanks with mono.. Braid would just make that happen more..

D. No peeing contest and the folks I mention are not just Point Regulars actualy I left those guys out of the entire post they go everywhere for fish, and I used them as an example of the best of the best IMHO..You brought up the Point I did not mention it nor did I include myself. Been measured by the sports cast guys myself but I don't toot the old horn. I consider myself competent not great by any means.. I am there to have fun

E. Bang for the buck I just don't see it. I respool during the heart of drum season 3 4 times a week just to keep fresh line on it.. Not doubing you numbers but 8% is 49.36 feet that I would honestly have to see with my own 2 eyes..

I didn't mean to ruffle any feathers and I quantified every post with do what ya want.. RR next time your down lets get together and throw a bit.. Like I said I use the stuff on all my lite spinners, but my reasons are not distance its senseitivity....

Take it easy fellas you all getting cabin fever way to soon this year.. Go fishing .. Have fun.. Promote our sport.. Take a kid fishing...

Caught 4 Specks this morning including this one..
http://www.reddrumtackle.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=58962

And yes braid was used on this fish 8# 1# Power Pro....

JAM OUT

Lipyourown

12-22-2006, 10:43 AM

Hey Big Rad, didn't try to sound condescending. I go without shock leaders all the time with just braid when I fish PLO beach for spot, snappers etc.

terpfan

12-22-2006, 11:35 AM

surf rat

12-22-2006, 12:19 PM

I agree with JAM. Mono is a better choice for fishing. But in the land of the blind the cyclops is king. Merry Christmas to all of you , even you no fishing #@#@er's.

chris storrs

12-22-2006, 12:23 PM

is fifty pound drum, only thing caught in the point?? how is the sensitivity of mono, when the rig is 200 yards out and you are using a 8oz sinker??? you will definately notice the drum, but how about a spot?? or is spot not worth catching in the point??

..ur rigs not gonna be 200 yardsout, a good cast with 8nbait is 300 feet, exceptional is 400, more your either a beast or kidding urself

your not gonna catch a spot on drum bait/drum hook

if ur spot fishing during a drum bite, unless u ran outta bait, its not worth catching, unless ur tackle cant handle a drum

jmo

terpfan

12-22-2006, 01:33 PM

i didn't mean to say 200 yard out with a drum rig, but with rigs for small fish, it is definately possible to be out 200+. with mono, does it work????

NTKG

12-22-2006, 01:40 PM

:eek: ;) spot not worth catching in the point??

no its not, I can buy bait. im not in MD theres bigger fish:D :p

CrawFish

12-22-2006, 01:44 PM

I haven't seen anyone cast 200+ yards on the beach yet, especially when you have a bait on. A small number of people can do it, but not for bait fishing. They sling metals. And why would you want to catch small fish 200+ yards out, when you can catch them w/ a castnet. But to answer your question, braid does have a better bite detection than mono, due to sensitivity. At the same time when we rig up for yakked baits, we use 40lbs mono and out for 400yrds. As you see, we got it done at the point back in June.

NTKG

12-22-2006, 01:53 PM

without being my normal self my input is merely this

1. Braid does not hold up well to "shock" for me. On my trout/spanish/sighcasting setups, the "shock" from hooksets as well as getting hung up reduces the strength. 30lb pp is impossible to break for me. If i hang it up on a piling at lesner if i pull steady and slow i cant break it. If i give it a quick BAM, it snaps... so for me i have no faith in its ability to absorb sudden impacts. which if you've ever seen my "hookset" i need lol..

2. braid is hard to see. what i mean by that is that its hard for me while im fishing to inspect every strand of the braid, with mono i can see cuts and nicks very easily in the line. i dont care what argument someone has, once you abrade any line even braid it weaker.

3. if i wanna use braid as shocker as much as i change and go through line, it just would not pay out....

4. what im doing now works... and it works well, i dont think that i would see an appreciable notice in distance changing my shock to braid. the only times im really in need of that lil extra bit, im waist or chest deep in water and my cast goes to chit at that point any way....

bottom line.... im always down to learn something new, gain more distance or try and catch more fish. im not kenny, pat, arch or like those guys that live down south like jam or sarge Brayman. but i do catch a fish once in a while and i know enough to say if you cant break 20lb with a 4+ sinker your really not casting as far as we can. bc it breaks, it always breaks. Use a shock. use whatever you want... but please do use one, bc all bullchit aside.... you dont wanna hurt someone... and if its me you hurt with no shock or my car door or window your sinker goes through.... we're gonna have a bad day....

NTKG

12-22-2006, 01:57 PM

i didn't mean to say 200 yard out with a drum rig, but with rigs for small fish, it is definately possible to be out 200+. with mono, does it work????

wait... i didnt see this.. your casting 200 yards wiht bait???? i will pay to see this on a field where its measurable.

and crawdaddy got a point there, why would you cast 200yrds for a spot? and ima call bullchit. with 200yrds of line braid or mono, your not going to feel a spot nibble. if you feel a nibble its already hooked itself and is swimming away from you dood.

if you go on a coastal pier during a spot blitz, them fish arent at the end of the pier bra, they're up front in the surf zone in dirty water, ya might not need to cast that far.

VICIII

12-22-2006, 02:28 PM

[QUOTE=Sgt_Slough;245802]The rod's weight rating should be what it can cast under a fully loaded condition.
Here is the 11'-9" and a baseball just before the "hit."

http://pierandsurf.com/photopost/data/500/baseball.jpg
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
What rod was that and how do you do that...
some one put up a video on the proper technique of a power cast. I bet that is more important than any equipment. You could out cast me with a noodle rod and 1 oz...

terpfan

12-22-2006, 02:31 PM

i never claimed to cast 200+ with bait. (was claimed by i believe BB) although i can cast 150+ with little bait with little help of the wind. :) many of you has good points, but i guess the bottom line is do whatever that works for you. :)

terpfan

12-22-2006, 03:08 PM

neil, the point is can you detect a bite with mono even 120 yard out unless it is a pretty big fish. also you might not have to cast long distance from the point to catch spot in the point) been there only once and not an expert), but there are places that require long distance cast to consistently catch any fish.

Mark G

12-22-2006, 03:50 PM

I know braid has better bite detection. Like Jam I use it on small and medium spinners.

But as far as 8& bait fishing how important is bite detection. With circle hooks I usually just spike the rod and wait for a fish to hook itself. Even if I held the rod and felt the initial bite because of braid I would think the tendency would be to do an old school hook set- really not necessary and maybe even unwise with circle hooks.

I will say to often with mono I'll not be paying attention sometimes and reel in to check bait and find a small critter (dogfish,skate, etc.) had been hanging out on the end of the line.

Great posts by SGT Slough but I really haven't seen this addressed
I haven't had the oppurtunity to play a big fish on all braid yet, I think that as pointed out it is good to have some stretch available when a big fish makes a hard run, more forgiving, particularly if your reel drag starts to give you issues.

I'd be interested to know if this is a real issue or not. Never pulled a hook free on a big fish Sarge?

I'm genuinely curious, not trying to debate one way or the other

dsurf

12-22-2006, 04:14 PM

Sgt, I not only appreciate the information you share in this post, but have also been able to validate same as well as much of the information in many of your other posts. For years I used conventional almost exclusively for heaver work and spinning for much lighter work, reluctant to change (aren't we all!!). However, I was intrigued by the spinning information you shared and set out to put much of it to test. So, for the past several months I've used performance enhanced spinning equipment and tested the waters.....performance based meaning powerful rods with long forward tapered spools (as well as ABS reverse tapered spools), braided running lines and casting leaders, various types of guides including low riders, high frame, etc. I've been absolutely amazed at the results. I not only believe spinning can match performance with conventional, but it can exceed it if properly orchestrated. Braided running line (I use 20lb PP) with braided casting leader (I use 65 lb PP) can achieve remarkable results....I concur with your tests. Having said that, after extensive test with various guides, I'm not sure the low rider concept with a size 20 gathering guide will achieve optimum performance with braided line. I'm now inclined to believe that best choice is either a 30H or 25H for the gathering guide.....but I still have more tests to perform.......I've actually shelved my conventional setups for the time being in preference for high performance spinning.......

Keep challenging us to think out of the box, try new things, be open to new ideas......you do a great service in furthering the long distance fishing profession!

Newsjeff

12-22-2006, 04:36 PM

Jam,

Nice speck. :D

Drumdum

12-22-2006, 08:38 PM

I'm impressed by your infomative post. As far as using braid for the purpose we do down here,which is eight and bait on a conventional reel.. Can't say I would use it.. This is my reasoning: Know a fella who was a competitive long distance caster back in the eightys. He was dam good,held many records at that time... This fella used braid to drumfish off the pier and surf.. Yes he got tremendous distance,but he did that with mono as well.. He said it was for the hooksetting ability of the braid,and using it on my spinners sightcasting out of a boat or from the beach,I have to agree with him on that point.. The kicker is that on a conventional reel if you backlash,50% of the time your "toast" with that reel.. When he used mono he NEVER BACKLASHEDthat I saw.. With the braid,he backlashed like a "mortal"... :D Either you sit patiently and pick for thirty min or go to backup rod..
Another thing I never saw him do was breakoff fish.. With the braid,I saw him break off at least two on the hookset! A sudden jerk can in many cases cost you a fish with braid,unless you have a more forgiving rod than a heaver. At least that's all I can figure,because I've set many a hook into cobes and drum with braid and a spinning rod,and not broken one off on the hookset as of yet..
On the pier in most cases you want your sinker to hold,we even go to twelve if need be.. Well the problem this guy was having was if there was any current whatsoever,he'd have to step up in wieght.. I saw many days when I could hold easily with eight,and he had to throw ten.. Actually it kinda evened the score a little for me,cause he wasn't casting any further than I was with the ten oz he had on there.. :D I tried braid later on and found the same thing held true for me.. Only thing we could figure was the no-stretch of the braid had no give with the waves,and the sudden pull of the waves would move the sinker. Whereas on mono,it would stretch with the waves,not moving the sinker.. Strange thing about this guy was he evidently was very hardheaded,cause he kept using the stuff till he moved to Ohio a while back,and said farwell to saltwater fishing..
These are some of the main reasons why I don't use braid for my main running line or shock,plus I don't like fishin with gloves on... :p

barty b

12-22-2006, 08:59 PM

[QUOTE= I tried casting a mono shock thru them and was not at all successful. What do the Florida Pomp guys with Lowriders do for shock/casting leader?

What's the difference (for this argument) between 20lb running line and a 50lb braid "shock" and someone running straight 40 - 50lb braid and no "shock?"

Braid casting leader advantages? Small knot is first for me. I also think it lets me get the sinker up and clear quicker on my OTG. I think it makes the rod load quicker and I think it makes for a very crisp release. The release of line tension becomes in instant affair, the rod is quicker to unload and get the sinker away and I think it's quicker to recover. That sudden release lends itself better to spinning where a snap at the end is not entirely undesirable.
It does make release timing a bit more critical but when you get it down a lob goes 100 yards.[/QUOTE]

Some use braid, some mono. As far as lowriders go they work fine with braid or mono,casting or spinning, IMHO

Nothing

Good positive points on braid, Thank you, Finally
Now I can die happy :D

Drumdum

12-22-2006, 09:16 PM

I meant to edit this into my post,but forgot,now it's too late..:rolleyes: :D

The fact that you like braid is great,if you like what you are using it for,that's even better.. Hopefully I wrote it decent enough for you to understand what I was trying to say. Just pointing out why I don't use it for one purpose,most of my rods have it on them though.. ;)

ASK4Fish

12-22-2006, 09:47 PM

i know enough to say if you cant break 20lb with a 4+ sinker your really not casting as far as we can. bc it breaks, it always breaks.

ok so today when me and my buddy were out at lynnhaven...we didn't cast 5n'bait on 20lb. all day w/o shock leaders...the piling sets there are ~9feet apart...we could count out 45 sets to where the bait was landing...thats ~405 feet or ~135 yards...thats as far as i'm willing to push it w/o a shocker...but my point is it can be done...i've casted at least 90 yards w/ an 8oz. and no shocker...it can be done...my technique obviously works here where some others can't...but don't say it is impossible or it will always break because myself and others will prove you wrong...I DO ADVISE THE USE OF AND USE A SHOCKER MYSELF...BUT...I KNOW THAT I CAN DO WHAT I SAID W/O A SHOCKER...

surf rat

12-23-2006, 12:30 AM

CrawFish

12-23-2006, 12:38 AM

I don't know about 8nbait no shockleader. I've cast 8nbait w/ 50lbs shockleader and still break at the knot after a bait change (15min in the water). I've gone up to 100lbs the last 3ft and solved that problem. Just don't fish next to me casting 8nbait not shockleader. :cool:

Cor

12-23-2006, 05:04 AM

One main factor in determining distance is the friction of the line in the air, traveling at speed.
You may test this several ways. If you've ever run most of your line out, without a weight, over board from a moving boat (I've done that to get the twist out) you will quickly see that the line soon tugs fairly hard (resistance in the water).
It is my guess that braid (with its small diameter and no curl memory) will have less friction, in air or water, than mono.
Anyone want to try that from an airplane to test the resistance of the two lines?
Most anyone with suficient arse can snap a small running line on a cast with 8 oz and a 12' heaver. Thats where the heavy leader does its job.

Dyhard,
This is not necessary true under all circumstances. Some braids are fairly loosely woven. Also after a lot of use the braids I tested got a bit "woolly" which causes a lot of wind resistance. (I cast and retrieve lures and can easily do 500, 80yd casts in a day)

I often fish in 25knot winds and you can feel the resistance much more than on thicker gauge mono.

Sgt_Slough

12-23-2006, 05:41 AM

:
What rod was that and how do you do that...

It is a factory All Star Breakaway 11'-9"; it is an old one, rated for 6 - 12 ounces. Model designation for the spinner is LDFS119-2 XH if I remember correctly (casting model would have a "C" instead of the "S"). New ones are rated 3 - 6. It is built on the SU1418 blank. Nick at Breakaway (http://www.breakawayusa.com/shop/rods.htm) still sells them although I think they are made on Rainshadow blanks.

I know braid has better bite detection. Like Jam I use it on small and medium spinners.

But as far as 8& bait fishing how important is bite detection.

I fish a lot of tournaments up here and the majority of the fish caught are small blues and sea mullet. That's what puts inches on the board. With braid you can certainly feel a nibble at 500ft+; I can feel the crabs eatin my bait for Pete's sakes! :D

I really haven't seen this addressed

I haven't had the oppurtunity to play a big fish on all braid yet, I think that as pointed out it is good to have some stretch available when a big fish makes a hard run, more forgiving, particularly if your reel drag starts to give you issues.
I'd be interested to know if this is a real issue or not. Never pulled a hook free on a big fish Sarge?

Fighting a large fish on braid does take more finesse, no doubt about it. I have caught bass to 38lbs, red drum to 43 inches and 5ft+ Brown sharks from the beach and have not lost one to what I would attribute to the zero-stretch attribute of 100% braid running gear. The open beach does afford one the time to play the fish down and negate its advantage in the undertow.

Here's a nice 43 incher my kid caught when he was 12; on an all braid rod . . .

http://pierandsurf.com/photopost/data/500/GSstriper43.jpg

If a hyper kid can do it! . . .

I have lost several large fish (40"+) livelining herring on the Delaware River fishing from an elevated bulkhead where locked down control must sometimes be exerted at net time. Those fish would have probably come unhooked with a heavy mono leader as well, we are only talking about 8-10 feet of line out of the tip.

. . . for the past several months I've used performance enhanced spinning equipment and tested the waters.....performance based meaning powerful rods with long forward tapered spools (as well as ABS reverse tapered spools), braided running lines and casting leaders, various types of guides including low riders, high frame, etc. I've been absolutely amazed at the results. I not only believe spinning can match performance with conventional, but it can exceed it if properly orchestrated. Braided running line (I use 20lb PP) with braided casting leader (I use 65 lb PP) can achieve remarkable results....I concur with your tests.

It is amazing, I have had conventional purists cast my stuff and their jaws drop . . . They realize this equipment is light years beyond the spinners they are familiar with and for distance the old truism about conventionals always casting further has been relegated to the status of "old wives tale."

Having said that, after extensive test with various guides, I'm not sure the low rider concept with a size 20 gathering guide will achieve optimum performance with braided line. I'm now inclined to believe that best choice is either a 30H or 25H for the gathering guide....

I'm sold on the concept. Some reels require intensive test casting and adjustment of the Fuji recommended spacings. My first rod for the Basia (13'-2" AS1507) has the gatherer a remarkable 51+ inches from the reel stem. Anything closer and I was getting blow-by; the line was shooting past the guide and had to loop back and thru.

Keep challenging us to think out of the box, try new things, be open to new ideas......you do a great service in furthering the long distance fishing profession!

Thanks for the kind words!

As far as using braid for the purpose we do down here,which is eight and bait on a conventional reel.. Can't say I would use it..

I'm not trying to convince anyone that they should change, that a braid casting leader is "the way to go" for them. I have been asked and I have answered questions regarding why I like the material for my conditions but this thread was started to ferret out the reasons why using a braid leader is "always" a bad idea . . . I remember one particular comment here on P&S; upon the mention of braid as a shocker someone wrote, "as for using braid as a shocker, bad, bad idea, do a search."

Well, this thread will be up at the top of the results in a search; this is the place for the naysayers to present their case.

Without a doubt some of the location and tackle specific points against are valid and would cause the nod to go to a mono shock. For what I do, 95% open beach chunking for stripers with clam or bunker in my own spot or tournament fishing on a team of like rigged fellow anglers, I don't see the harm.

Again, I've been using a braid "shocker" for a dozen years without incident and the practice is common up here for the majority of hot rod tournament guys as well.

As far as lowriders go they work fine with braid or mono,casting or spinning, IMHO

I was trying to cast with the mandated .31 and .75 shocker and I would catch the knot on at least half my casts. I gave up and built a typically rung, 1508 just for mono.

JAM

12-23-2006, 09:09 AM

I think the thing that gets in my craw is that when I go to Fla to fish I fish the way they fish.. If I were to go to Jersey I would look for advice from resident anglers from Jersey.. I would adopt their technique.. I would not cop the attitude, and I quote " thats no how we do it back home"
which is a lot of what I see and am told from out of state anglers.. I believe it is a true lack of respect but hey thats the way of the world..

Merry ho ho folks.. JAM out:)

ASK4Fish

12-23-2006, 09:51 AM

What are you casting 5 and bait 135 yds with no shock with? Try it on a measured field. 135 yds is a long ways. I don't mean to be rude but I would have to see that to believe it. If you are casting eight and bait with no shock you are going to hurt someone. You need to listen to what Neil is telling you grasshopper.

never said bn'bait w/no leader i said an 8oz...yesterday i proved the point to my buddy...and after a while even he was trying it w/no shock and he could do the same...WE USUALLY USE SHOCKERS...I LOVE SHOCKERS...THEY ARE GREAT...I AM JUST SAYING THAT ONE CAN CAST IT SHOCKER OR NO AND IT WILL NOT "ALWAYS BREAK"...

surf rat

12-23-2006, 10:20 AM

That is the problem. There is very little. I have a lot of respect for someone that has payed their dues. I on the other hand can't take someone serious that I know thinks they know what they don't, (no one in particular) .The fact is the guys like Jam are for real. They live in the middle of some of the best surf fishing on earth. I would suggest to anyone who wants to learn to listen to these guys. Guys like Neil, NewsJeff and Crawfish have respect and look at how far they have come as fisherman. They will be the next Elite fisherrman. Give respect where respect is due you will get respect in return. Most of the real Elite never look at this board and for sure would not waste their time trying to get someone to listen to them. I think we should all show a little more respect. BUT, I will be the first to call BULL$HIT. Even the Yankees deserve respect. I know you guys catch your share of fish.

JAM

12-23-2006, 10:36 AM

Surf Rat thanks for the kind words.. I have and will help anyone on da beach achive what ever there goal is.. I will gladly show anyone gear, rigs, tenicique (sp).. Anything I have as far as knowledge goes has been passed on to me by some of the best of the best.. Guys that started this game that we all love to play.. Imagine being in baseball and having The Babe as your hitting instructor.. The main reason that folks were willing to teach me what they knew is that I have Respect and because I was willing to listen and learn.. People are more free with info if you are willing to listen . I never have, nor will I claim to know it all, that is just not my style.. I am blessed to live on a barrier Island and fish 300 days a year or so.. It is my job to put people on fish and I take my job seriously. I have just as much pleasure seeing one of you guys get your first citation fish as I do catching them.. Thanks for a great year guys.. Good luck to all anglers in the up comming year.. and If ya ain't learning something new every day,,, Guess what your dead.....JAM out..:)

Drumdum

12-23-2006, 10:37 AM

never said bn'bait w/no leader i said an 8oz...yesterday i proved the point to my buddy...and after a while even he was trying it w/no shock and he could do the same...WE USUALLY USE SHOCKERS...I LOVE SHOCKERS...THEY ARE GREAT...I AM JUST SAYING THAT ONE CAN CAST IT SHOCKER OR NO AND IT WILL NOT "ALWAYS BREAK"...

I agree,it will not break on a smoooooth cast,maybe two or three,if you are careful,and no abrassion on the line.. Depends on your cast as well,me,I might get one off. Then the urge ta "hit the target" would strike and kerpoww! :D
I'm speaking for others here as well as myself.. Whether I'm fishin in Va,Jersey (neverbeenthere),Fla,NC,Tex,wherever,I will use a shock if throwing an amount that is more than two to four oz on a twenty lb running line...
If on the surf or pier,and you have folks around you,it's only being safe.. The rule of thumb is ten lb of strength vs one oz of wieght.. IMHO,fifty can go as high as ten,but ya better check it for nicks A LOT,meanin every other cast or so..
This can be taken out of context,so if you are fishin for fish that don't required more than a lob,and using the normal 2 ta 4 wieght,what difference does it make? None,imho..

Not preaching here,just trying to avoid seeing some of the incidents I have seen on piers.. Saw one guy,that was lucky get a bunker and hook in the back,through his jacket because of a breakoff.. Another was hit near the temple.. When he was hit,he went down like a "shot goose",was laying there suttering as if in a convultion.. Not a pretty sight..When he stopped moving I personally thought he was dead..Again lucky,was carried off the pier on a stretcher by emergency squad.. Next day we saw him with bandage on head and sporting a few stitches,but ready to fish.. :D

Ever since that time,even before that,I have used shock,and expect others using heavy lead to do so as well,or have a running line that is equal to or greater than the shock would be..

Jam,I've experience anglers that have that "that's not the way we do it in wherever" statement as well,but it ain't just Jersey it's both n and s,believe me... Many times I drop the hint,and many are too stuborn ta listen.. Most time I just let em watch me and others catch fish till they "Do as the Romans".. Sometimes if I see what they are doing is workin,I'm guilty of tryin it.. :D
BUT,where safety is concerned that attitude kinda s*cks...

Frank

12-23-2006, 10:46 AM

I haven't tried braid for shocker and the reason is that it's so limp. If I get tangled with someone, the shock leader is involved. Nighttime,old age, poor eyesight, I need all the help I can get. I've gone to using a different colored shocker than clear for contrast. Then use a rig similar to the TW rig.
Good luck and Merry Christmas.

Sgt_Slough

12-23-2006, 11:37 AM

If I were to go to Jersey I would look for advice from resident anglers from Jersey.. I would adopt their technique.. I would not cop the attitude, and I quote " thats no how we do it back home"

Mr. Pot, meet Mr. Kettle.

That works both ways . . .

Your replies make people feel like they need to "present their papers" in order to join in the discussion or taken seriously. Your condescension towards those who disagree with you is plainly evident and not at all concealed by sprinkling, "do what ya want" through your posts. I'm not being irresponsible and dangerous by using braid for a "shocker." I know how to cast and I know how to fish. When you say. "I will stay with what is proven by real fisherman, not what is dreampt up by internet fishermen," I take that as an insult because your qualification of the statement is blindingly trite. I feel compelled to "toot my horn" because to you it seems only one's accomplishments with a rod in hand determine the validity of their opinions. That the guys who wallpaper their walls with NC drum citations (and yes, I know they don't actually write in and receive them, their too "seasoned" for that) don't "find the need for braid to catch fish" does not negate the usefulness of braid in other weight-n-bait surf fishing applications.

Not doubing you numbers but 8% is 49.36 feet that I would honestly have to see with my own 2 eyes.

"Not doub[t]ing you[r] numbers but . . . I would honestly have to see with my own 2 eyes."

And that's exactly what I'm talking about . . . Now when I go and write my justification:

The mono 617ft, 150gm OTG (and I really worked to get that) is listed on the Sportcast website and Tommy Farmer will vouch for the braid number, he lasered me at 657 in June when we casted together. I have since put a few out just shy (2 or 3 guides) of a rod length (13'-2") over 650 on the practice field; I'm calling it 660 just to be conservative.

That leaves the door wide open for you to say - hey, take it easy ya big name dropping bragger, I said I wasn't doubting you!

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :--|

JAM

12-23-2006, 11:56 AM

I will listen to you. I see it is you that is comming off condecending.. But I will back my BS up.. SGT.. Next time your down lets a a friendy little comp for a little cash.. Won't have to worry bout what happens as I keep my mouth shut.. And this won't be my first rodeo with an offer like this..

That said I have not invented this style of fishing I have learned it from the best.. Not that I ever would travel to Jersy or RI for that matter to fish but if I did I would do it the way that the locals are doing it and try to assimilate and blend in.. I would not argue with them and out and out disagree.. Its quite foolish..

No where in any of my posts do I talk down to anyone.. Its funny though and I don't get this feeling too often but Sgt there is one thing I can tell ya .. I don't like ya and I never met ya.. Offer stands.... Look me up when your down.. JAM :)

surf rat

12-23-2006, 12:14 PM

I think you do have to have permission to fish the point. If not you should.

Clyde

12-23-2006, 12:19 PM

It seems to me I remember one of the pier regulars showing up with some super duper mono from across the pond this year that had very minimal stretch. He was going on & on about how great this was for a shock leader because it didn't stretch and would load his rod up better, he claimed it gave him 15 yds on the cast immediately. What's the difference in useing that, and say 200# powerpro as a shock leader?

JAM

12-23-2006, 12:34 PM

10 or so years ago berkley came out with fusion and gave a bunch of it to the regulars, Big Ed, Mike Spicer, Jack Dean. They all tried it and none of them liked it caused lots of problems..No strech pulling hooks in the wash.. Birds nests become a 40 dollar problem as opposed to a 5 dollar problem.. Thats good enough for me...

I have never said you MUST do this or ya MUST do that.. Or this is the ONLY way to do it.. What I have said and you can scour every inch of this post is, do what ever ya want just DON'T DO IT NEAR ME. Period DOT.. But go ahead do what ever ya want.. It is truly no skin off my hands....Feel free to contact me via pm if ya want to give it a go when your down SGt. JAM done on this one.. Happy Holidays... Fellas:D

Sgt_Slough

12-23-2006, 12:55 PM

Well to surf rat and JAM I will exit this thread with these statements.

Respect is a two way street.

Re-read my first post (http://www.pierandsurf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=245011&postcount=1) in this thread and please tell me how what you've been arguing in these last two pages of this thread conforms to what I asked or how I wanted to frame the discussion.

After you do that we can talk about respect and how it is earned and honored.

Not that I ever would travel to Jersy or RI for that matter to fish but if I did I would do it the way that the locals are doing it and try to assimilate and blend in.. I would not argue with them and out and out disagree.. Its quite foolish..

Please quote where I have advocated you guys changing how you fish or that I would come down there and force my style on you.

In fact, in post 52 (http://www.pierandsurf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=245799&postcount=52) of this thread in reply to you I said;

"I've fished your precious Point and I am actually capable of conforming to local tackle customs. I have even been seen throwing my Newell's and Abu's on occasion (all with mono) and throw them well."

So please, tell me who you are caling "foolish" in the quote / post above since it can't be me. . . .

Strawmen (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html) and red herrings (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/red-herring.html) are easy debate opponents and your posts are evident of that. Sure makes it frustrating for everyone else though.

Buh-bye and plonk . . .

terpfan

12-23-2006, 01:44 PM

the local know the best on what kinds of tackle works best on their water. although all the great point fisherman might not like braids, but i'm sure they can catch a fish or two using a braid line. i also think mono rated 50# is less likely to snap, than the 50# braid as a shock leader, but i use usually 100+ pp for my leader, and never had any problems with it. the main point is using braid as a shock leader is safe as using mono. furthermore, i truly believe if braids were allowed in the casting tournaments, all of the records are likely to be broken. finally, there are many people that i want to fish with in the future in this board, it include people i agree and disagree with in this particular subject. i sure all of you are nice people, but it is easy for an internet forum to become personal, when meeting in person we are more courteous to others. i hope i did not offend anyone. see you all in the future. :)

Mark G

12-27-2006, 10:02 AM

Strawmen and red herrings are easy debate opponents and your posts are evident of that. Sure makes it frustrating for everyone else though.

but not quite ready.

IMO you when this debate hands down Sarge.(yeah I know it was not set up as a formal debate-but one can be assured that bringing up braid vs. mono topic is bound to go down that path) I appreciate your insightfullness and ability to present yourself and make your points clear to the reader.

I would much rather hear from folks who have at least experienced the situation, than from those who simply stay with the tried and true. ( Doesn't lend itself to the advance of the sport if no one is willing to experiment and shake things up a bit.)

Thanks again for your comments sarge.:) :)

greybeard

12-27-2006, 01:13 PM

Lets see. When I was a kid, my dad had a steel rod, conventional reel (no drag), and braid line. They were just coming out with mono. That stuff would never work according to my dad. A few years later, the old mitchel 300 was the king with mono. Then the bass guys got modern magged and weighted reels and used mono with baitcasters because of the drag I guess. Spinning drags were lousy up until just a few years ago. Now we are back to braid. Someone has come up with a manufacturing breakthrough that allows high strength with small diameter. But like my dad said when mono first came out. That stuff will never work.

Cluck

12-27-2006, 08:35 PM

HISTORY does have a habit of repeating itself.

Green Cart

12-28-2006, 11:04 AM

Keeping fish and fingers away from the braid is not a problem. The shark rig I use has nearly fifteen feet of cable / 400lb mono between the hook and my braid when it is deployed (upside-down pulley rig).

How can you cast 15 feet of cable/400 lb mono without breaking it off? More specifically, how is that 15 feet connected to your running braid? It sounds like an awful big knot. :eek: Before making the cast, where is this knot? On the spool or outside the rod? Am I missing something? The upside-down pulley rig must be the key where somehow all 15 feet of cable is located outside the rod.

Mark G

12-28-2006, 11:37 AM

Not to speak for Sarge, but a pulley rig is typically folded in half (appoximately), so the 15' length would require a total of 7 1/2' drop. It is usually attached via a swivel and crimped on rather than dealing with bulky knots.

It is hard to explain in words, but if you have seen breakaway pulley rigs, it would be similar to that, but on a larger scale for sharkin.

Hope this helps/ Sarge can clarify further if I left something out.

Green Cart

12-28-2006, 11:53 AM

The only time that a shock leader is not needed if one just cast gently. However, if he goes for distance, a shock leader is needed for safety. The rest of the arguments is whether or not the shock leader should be just a running line of 60 lb or higher vs for example - 20 lb running line (either braid or mono) connected to 50 lb mono/braid for 5 oz sinker, etc.

Personally, I don't like to use the running line of 60 lb or higher because what if I get hung up on a snag. Then if I break the running line, I would lose lots of expensive braid line. But if I am able to reel the snag in, I might find a few sinkers. Just ask Big Rad. :D That is why I rather use a weaker running line tied to the shocker line, I will break it off at the shock knot - the weakest link -that is what I want.

Sgt_Slough

06-04-2007, 06:03 PM

Five pages and 103 posts and my original questions remain unanswered.

Drumdum

06-04-2007, 07:47 PM

I am starting this thread because of comments in Catfish713's "Shock Knot" thread . . .

Well, I would like to understand the "NO BRAID SHOCKER" rule and why some anglers hold it with such vigor.

I don't want to hear arguments about braid being no good at the Point or you can't drag a fish on the beach or it cuts your finger . . . Those issues are easily remedied; I want to center this discussion on just the physics of the rod, line and sinker.

Here's my position:

I am of the mind that the term "shock leader" is a misnomer; in a properly executed high energy cast there is no "shock" per-se, the power is a smooth progression.

IMO, the requirement of a heavier leader for casting is just to resist the centrifugal force of the sinker; a 5oz weight swinging on a 20+ foot radius at 180 mph "weighs" 50+ lbs.

I use braid running line on all my distance set-ups (spinning) and I use a braid casting leader. I have used that braid combo for well over 10 years now and have never had a problem with rod failure. (With my conversion to Fuji Lowrider guides I really don't know how you would use a mono casting leader anyways.)

My position is that the rod is an incredible absorber of energy . . . The thought that one must rely on a heavy length of mono to "protect" the rod from the "shock" of the cast seems nonsensical to me.

As I see it, my job is to impart as much controlled and progressively building energy as I can to the rod. The rod's job is to transfer that energy to the sinker. Placing a component between the rod and the sinker that saps energy and defeats the full and complete transfer of my imparted energy to the sinker just doesn't make any sense to me . . .

So the question is; does a rod really need a "shock absorber" between it and the sinker?

To me it's like telling someone they need to run 10lbs of air in ther tires to "protect" the car's springs . . . sure, it gives a smoother ride but ya ain't getting top perfomance. :p

So, for me, I don't use a "shock leader" because in my cast there is no " shock;" I use a casting leader. ;)

Sgt,I tried to answer,but not being as adept at putting words in a series as you it may not have been to your satisfaction..
What you are saying makes good sense,because we are all SUPPOSE to have a smoooooth cast.. Many of us do not.. Most of the time I do,but if in the heat of a drumblitz,sometimes I'll loose some of that form to hurry up and get in the water.. :D Another case would be in waves that are breaking at chest level and your casting form isn't what it should be..
When,it becomes a "snap" cast like this is when I believe the "shock leader" is necessary,imo.. Only example I could give of mono over braid in a case like this (snap cast),would be gettin hung with braid or mono.. The braid will snap many times with an abrupt pull,and the mono most times takes a slow but steady pull to snap it..

One of the main ADVANTAGES,I can easily see from your post is that (as you illustrated with tire pressure) your sinker is going to be a direct link to the end of your rod,WITH NO STRETCH.. Imo,that's going to make for a much longer cast if done smoothly.. I'm in full agreement with you on this one,except in the situations that I discribed above..Cause sometimes,I just can't control myself when I think there's a drummie at the end of my next cast... :D
I know you didn't want to hear these arguments,as you stated in original post,but they bear merit,if you fish here.. Where you are fishing,no doubt it's probably different..

One of the things I disagree with is cutting your hands on a big fish is easily remedied.. I am stuck in a mold,so to speak.. I fish bare handed,always have always will.. For me to be in 3ft of water,digging through my waders trying to find a pair of gloves while I fight a big fish,imho,is rediculous.. jmo...

Another thing about braid mixed in with 100 other lines,is when it becomes tangled,it REALLY becomes tangled!! My eyes aren't the greatest anyway,but when you mix that with fishing at night and having to untangle braid from around hooks,swivels,knots,ect.. To make that short,it's a nightmare to me..:rolleyes: If you have any suggestions on how to remedy either of these two problems when fishing in the surf with braid,I'm all ears...

In other words,I agree with the technical basis for your post.. You bring up excellent points,but they wouldn't work in my world,although,I'm glad they work well in yours... :)

Sgt_Slough

06-04-2007, 09:52 PM

If you go to all the fishing forum and post the same question, you would get the same response that you got here...

Not necessarily. As I said in the thread, up here it is common practice and in the tournaments I fish most of the top teams use such a set-up. So understand my puzzlement; I have used braid leaders for a dozen years and the best fishermen (and longest fishing casters) I have ever seen have used them just as long so I needed to ask . . .

But i also like to have some Mono on my main leader, (for one i like to use flou carbon) alot....and i also like to have the "Give" if something take off on me when it is close....

I tie my rigs out of mono; I like to keep at least 3 feet of mono/flouro between any hook and any braid. Most of my rigs are in a dropper style with the main strand of the rig about 2X the length of the snood/hook leader at a minimum. If my hook leader is 18 inches long, my rig from swivel to sinker is 3ft+. In a fish-finder rig I always use a length of mono for the sinker to slide on.

Sgt,I tried to answer,but not being as adept at putting words in a series as you it may not have been to your satisfaction..

The next time I'm down and pier fishing for large I'll remember your reasons why braid is problematic.

What you are saying makes good sense,because we are all SUPPOSE to have a smoooooth cast.. Many of us do not.. Most of the time I do,but if in the heat of a drumblitz,sometimes I'll loose some of that form to hurry up and get in the water.. :D Another case would be in waves that are breaking at chest level and your casting form isn't what it should be..

Which unless you have the most incredible upper body strength, means you are not locking the rod before the hit. For me, that's another argument for a non-stretch leader. We fish hard and if the bar is reachable we are on it. This often means casting in thigh deep water with breaking surf and using a Hatteras cast, I believe the braid leader does rocket the cast with less effort.
When,it becomes a "snap" cast like this is when I believe the "shock leader" is necessary,imo..

Take a video of your hardest "snap" cast and one of a long-drop slow smooth progression. Tell me which one is "stressing" the rod more. The quick snap is what I discussed as just being soaked up in the rod. Unless you are exceeding the weight rating you are not going to "get into" the lower third of the rod with a snap cast.

I'm not saying that just poor form can't overstress a rod; doesn't matter what you use for a leader, put enough torque on a blank it will fail.

One of the things I disagree with is cutting your hands on a big fish is easily remedied.

There is always mono to grab on my rigs; I am never trying to handle a fish with the braid.

In other words,I agree with the technical basis for your post.. You bring up excellent points,but they wouldn't work in my world,although,I'm glad they work well in yours...

And that's all I asked for, an evaluation and explanation of the physics and mechanics of the rod and cast. There are a thousand reasons why a specific tactic / tackle choice won't work in a specific spot . . . I accept that. If all I used up here was a Hatteras Drum rig it would be some time between meals; doesn't mean it ain't a great rig . . .

Sgt_Slough

06-04-2007, 10:00 PM

Problem: in order for me to get a proper drop length and not have the "casting leader" to rig knot have to go thru any guides, the mono rig needs to be shorter than what I like.

Soluitions?

This rig is for the casting of long leaders on a fishfinder rig. This is my fluking rig and also I use it sometimes for stripers when the water is gin clear. It works well when you want to drift baits (or can't really hold) in swift current. It's great in inlets with a bead chain trolling sinker as the weight!

I call it a reverse pulley or "up-and-over" rig. This rig uses some sort of clip down for the hook (impact shield, impact sinker, IMP clip or homemade) and a clip at the top of the rig for the leader to hang on. The top clip can be a snipped duolock snap, a small fish hook with the point and barb snipped off or a formed piece of rigging wire. This is crimped on the main strand of the leader. (At least 80lb test)

http://home.comcast.net/~europe_rick/misc_image_upload/up_n_over_imp.JPG
As you can see the hook leader goes "up-and-over" and the hook is secured on the clip-down. This flies out as a unit and disengages upon impact with the water. The rig then fishes like any other long-leadered fish finder. If you would like a 4 foot leader you can end up with an overall rig length (when casting) of as short as 30 inches from top swivel to sinker. That's manageable for any drop.

The flexibility of this rig is obvious; as I said earlier in the thread I use this style for my shark rig . . . substitute 300lb for the main strand and cable for the leader (and triple the overall size)
I drew this rig with my present favorite clip-down mechanism, the Breakaway IMP clip.

Here it is in a hook secured position . . .

http://home.comcast.net/~europe_rick/misc_image_upload/imp03a.jpg

and then "tripped" . . . On impact the little "paddle" is pushed up and the hook is flipped off. Very positive release and very small and unobtrusive in the air and water.

http://home.comcast.net/~europe_rick/misc_image_upload/imp04a.jpg