I love America, do you?

[JeepMike]

Hey guys. I just got in a HUGE argument at work with some people that say they hate America and the government sucks, etc. Now there are definately things I'd like to see changed, but I LOVE this country with all of my heart.

Everyone bashes on America so much, lets chime in on why we love America!!!

For me -

I decided to give up what I was doing, move to an island and live here. I was able to do so without asking anyone permission. What a great country to live in.

[redneckranger]

I love America but not Americans LOL

I love it when you can drive/ride to some mountain in the horizon and it takes a couple days to get there

[saltandsand]

It's the GREATEST beyond doubt!

[mtbrider]

I love America because its the greatest country on this earth. The people who can complain need to spend some time in other countries to appreciate everything they have.

[HellRhaY]

I love America but not Americans


too many lawyers
too much ambulance chasers
never wrong although sometimes mistaken

and the thing i hate the most...they are
FAT!!!

[redneckranger]

Spent 4 years and Germany in the military you could always tell an American Tourist they expected everything to speak English to them, they thought they owned the place

[Mark G]

I try to maintain a middle ground, being neither so unpatriotic that I would bad mouth conditions here, nor so blindly patriotic that I can't see the faults within the system. (when you view the sytem as perfect, you quit striving to improve it)

No mattter how good some folks have it, you will always find a few with nothing better to do than to complain, and of course there are those on the other end of the spectrum, those who won't admit when there is a problem,i.e., loyal to a fault.

[saltandsand]

I love America because its the greatest country on this earth. The people who can complain need to spend some time in other countries to appreciate everything they have.

Silence when improvement is needed and can be had is far worse than any complaint.

[saltandsand]

I try to maintain a middle ground, being neither so unpatriotic that I would bad mouth conditions here, nor so blindly patriotic that I can't see the faults within the system. (when you view the sytem as perfect, you quit striving to improve it)

No mattter how good some folks have it, you will always find a few with nothing better to do than to complain, and of course there are those on the other end of the spectrum, those who won't admit when there is a problem,i.e., loyal to a fault.

Perfectly stated. And it is the greatness of this Country that allows such a position to be taken. EXCELLENT.

[AbuMike]

Nothing more to say except......Eat and get the hell out....Better yet just get the hell out...

[mtbrider]

Silence when improvement is needed and can be had is far worse than any complaint.

Progression is important especially in a society that hopes to maintain its place as a world power, so I can't agree with you more on the fact that being quiet and not trying to change the status quo is bad. However, I've heard people complain and say how bad things are in this country yet not give any idea or contribute to making it better. Just the fact alone that people can complain about the government and not be killed shows how much freedom we have.

[Brooksobx]

JeepMike, it sounds to me that you need to find a new place to work. If you've got more than one person working there that hates America, your company might me a cover for a terrorist cell operating on Hatteras Island. If you've got them that close to the ocean, put their f##king asses in a rowboat and give 'em a shove!

[JeepMike]

JeepMike, it sounds to me that you need to find a new place to work. If you've got more than one person working there that hates America, your company might me a cover for a terrorist cell operating on Hatteras Island. If you've got them that close to the ocean, put their f##king asses in a rowboat and give 'em a shove!

I hear yah brother. When I made the post earlier I was rather heated, things have since calmed down. You are correct in the fact that unfortunately many of my co workers have irrational fears about the government based on ignorance. When I ask them if they hate this country so much, why don't they leave - all I get is stunned silence. Most could not believe that one would challenge them. Anyways, I just needed to hear from other Americans that all hope is not lost. I enjoy my coworkers, and they are good people; and there is really only one that has been driving me crazy. This coworker claims to not trust the government, and thinks it's responsible for all the misfortune in their life. It is inconceivable that they themselves might be responsible for their plight. Just the traditional idiot playing victim. Sorry so rambling, just can't handle an America bash.

[HellRhaY]

FAT
http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/9416/americamw1.jpg

[Al Kai]

Mike, I'm glad you brought this up.
I love America.
I have sworn to protect her against all enemies, both foreign and domestic.

I ask people a simple question.
What country do they feel is better?
Then If they answer some other country, My reply is, Then why the he** are you still here.
America is the greatest country in the world and If a person will disagree I feel they should leave.

America, love it or leave it.

[sudshunter]

I love my country, its my government that scares me!!!!

[Al Kai]

The reason I'm so keyed up by this topic is because I am surrounded by old hippies and young tree huggers.

All they do is complain and never have any solutions.

[Al Kai]

I'm like RudeDogg, I'm also a Polynesian Redneck.

[Lipyourown]

FAT
http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/9416/americamw1.jpg

Still enough to crush the rest of the world, if we are inclined.

I am beyond grateful to be an American.

[MoHawkTshirt]

American have too much pride, which blinded themself to the outside world

[sprtsracer]

OK guys, I've traveled the entire world and I've seen some unspeakable things! I've seen people living in shacks with flattened out alluminum beer cans used for roofs and siding. I've seen people scooping roaches off the street just to be able to get some protein in their diet. I've seen people shot simply because they failed to stop for the "policeman's" whistle for a simple traffic stop. I've been to countries where people were afraid to say what they thought for fear of going to jail. I've been to countries where I had friends who were afraid of going to jail simply because they were talking to me, an American. And I've been to countries where people tried to argue with me, spouting their brainwashed government propoganda about how bad we were. To hell with them. We have enough idiots like that in Hollywood...let them take Jane Fonda with them and head out to another country and STAY THERE!!! Get the Hell out of my country, because they sure as hell don't belong here!!! I'm just about sick of the "naysayers", mainstream media, democrats, liberals, etc, making apologies for MY country. These are the sickest and most "warped" people you would ever want to meet. They have NO CLUE!!! Their only agenda is to run down this country and to keep those that are "downtrodden" in the same state so that they can continue to court their favor. People like Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, Nancy Pelosi, Bill Clinton, "Billary", Obama, etc, continue to tell us how bad it is, and how they want to change everything, but not a damn one of them has ever done anything to lift anyone up!!! They need to put their damn money where their mouth is!!! Stop talking the crap and SHOW ME!!!

[inshoreangler95]

sprtsracer hit the nail in the head, as did sudshunter and al kai! great thoughts from all of you! i agree!

[BubbaHoTep]

I'm just about sick of the "naysayers", mainstream media, democrats, liberals, etc, making apologies for MY country. These are the sickest and most "warped" people you would ever want to meet. They have NO CLUE!!! Their only agenda is to run down this country and to keep those that are "downtrodden" in the same state so that they can continue to court their favor. People like Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, Nancy Pelosi, Bill Clinton, "Billary", Obama, etc, continue to tell us how bad it is, and how they want to change everything, but not a damn one of them has ever done anything to lift anyone up!!! They need to put their damn money where their mouth is!!! Stop talking the crap and SHOW ME!!!

Sprtsracer, you hit the nail on the head and drove the nail "plumb through the board." That crap in Obama's speech in Germany set me off, when he seemed to be making apologies for our nation. They are sick, you're correct.

Also Sprts, with those "naysayers," it's more than just the fact that they haven't done anything. It's their "I don't know anything, I have never done anything, but I want you to believe my heart's in the right place" nonsense that has characterized their "movement" or their "side" or whatever they want to call it for about forty years. "It doesn't matter what you do, it's where your heart is." This crap-laden, "warm fuzzy," touchy-feelie philosophy is ruining our society, imo.

Al Kai, they never have any solutions.

This is the greatest country in the world. I know we have some military servicemen on here, and I for one am very grateful everyday for the work you do and for the sacrifices all of you past and present have made for our nation. I agree there's always room for improvement (aptly stated SurfCat). I enjoy "healthy," constructive debate and view it as essential to the survival of republican government.

[J_Lannon]

America is still the finest country in the world. I have been reaffirmed with this belief every time my ship pulled back into home port after a 6-9 month cruise. You people who have not been to a really poor country have no idea how well off you really are. Even the poor people in the United States have the the material things that middle class people in other countries do not have. You people that have not been to countries with dictatorships, have no clue to what its like to be pulled out of your house and shot, or hacked to death. We have it made over here. We are protected under the greatest documents ever written by civil men.......THE CONSTITUTION and THE BILL OF RIGHTS.

I fear that we are being lead down a dark path right now by self centered politicians, and a apathetic, selfish population. It scares me to even think what this country will be in another 20years.

I am hoping the young people today will see this and correct it.

Its not all about being black, white, hispanic, tree hugger, anti corporation....... or what ever!

It should be about national pride.

[saltandsand]

So instead of bitchin about those you'd like to stiffle or ship out of the country, why don't you respect the freedom that you have, cherish it, because the world is changing OUR FREEDOM as we speak.

As to Hollywood... good lord... I'm sick of seeing two Presidential candidates argue about "celebritriness-chit". Get down to the issues or be boys.

[wolfva]

The funniest thing about the complainers is they are blind to nations in the world which do exactly what they falsely claim we do. How many leftists have you seen criticise Russia for invading Georgia? Or critisise Venuezuala for doing away with civil liberties? Sure, they'll complain loudly about how evil America is because we debate about gay mariage, but they say nothing when Iran HANGS gay men. I think it's 1 part narcissism, and 1 part fear. Let's face it. A person can say anything bad he wants about America and nothing will happen to him. Claim that Bush is an Emperor and is trying to conquer the world? Nada. On the other hand, criticise Vladimir Putin and you may find yourself irradiated.

We truly are the greatest nation in the world; we give more charity, and more blood, to sustain other's freedom then any other country. And we do it selflessly. Is there room for improvement? Of course, and always will be. Nothing is perfect in this world.

[Al Kai]

The funniest thing about the complainers is they are blind to nations in the world which do exactly what they falsely claim we do. How many leftists have you seen criticise Russia for invading Georgia? Or critisise Venuezuala for doing away with civil liberties? Sure, they'll complain loudly about how evil America is because we debate about gay mariage, but they say nothing when Iran HANGS gay men. I think it's 1 part narcissism, and 1 part fear. Let's face it. A person can say anything bad he wants about America and nothing will happen to him. Claim that Bush is an Emperor and is trying to conquer the world? Nada. On the other hand, criticise Vladimir Putin and you may find yourself irradiated.

We truly are the greatest nation in the world; we give more charity, and more blood, to sustain other's freedom then any other country. And we do it selflessly. Is there room for improvement? Of course, and always will be. Nothing is perfect in this world.
Well said.

[RuddeDogg]

Simply put, AMERICA, love or leave it............ I'm sorry, let me refrase that last part, GET THE F**K OUT! Yeah there are some things that I would like to see change and that's why we have the right and the systems in place to change that. This is the BEST country on the face of the planet. You can go from state to state with no papers, you can speak you your mind and not disappear in the dark of night never to be heard from again. You can protest what ever you want and not have tanks run you over and squash ya like a bug. You have the right to walk out your door and a leak on your land because it's yours. Try doing some of these things in other countries and see what happens.

[eric]

too many lawyers
too much ambulance chasers
never wrong although sometimes mistaken

and the thing i hate the most...they are
FAT!!!



dont make me smother you in my fluffiness... :eek:
nothing beats being a FATCOW

[JeepMike]

Thank you guys for reaffirming my belief that there are still some hardasses out there willing to cite examples of why our country is so bada$$!!!! I love it, and I'm getting ready to go watch some FOOTBALL and no NOT SOCCER! haha

[BubbaHoTep]

You have the right to walk out your door and a leak on your land because it's yours.

Preach on! So now my wife has told me for years that this is an East Tennessee redneck hillbilly thing that I do (She's not from here; I "transplanted her.) She'll ask, "Why did you go outside and do that when we have a bathroom?" or something like that. My reply, "Because this is America and I can." Now I'm gonna tell her that someone in NJ agrees with me! :)

J Lannon, I think you are 100 percent correct about our constitution being the greatest document ever written by civil men - or I guess one could say the greatest "as man-made governments go." The founders were wise enough to be vague when necessary, because such was essential to the long-term success of republican government. This vagueness (not sure if that's the right word) encourages debate and disagreement and perpetuates our system, which has been in place for over 200 years.

I was just talking with someone today about what someone who retired from the education profession in say the 1970's or 1980's would think about all of the changes in education today - with the Internet (not just in the classroom environment but in MySpace or email arguments sparking school discipline issues), the changes in young people, the changes in instruction, and the like. I have to wonder what many of the founding fathers would think of our world today. The prevailing view in the 1780s was that republican government would not work over a large geographical area. Madison's Federalist #10, of course, addressed that, but a lot of people forget or don't know that there was much apprehension at the time whether or not our government would even make it in the first place because "big" republican government (with a little "r") had never been tried. Today, changes in communication (and of course globalization) have made our world even "smaller" (not necessarily in terms of geo space). I just wonder what they would think about the longevity of their little experiment.

This said, I am grateful every day that it has survived. I feel very blessed to be an American.

[BubbaHoTep]

How many leftists have you seen criticise Russia for invading Georgia? Or critisise Venuezuala for doing away with civil liberties? Sure, they'll complain loudly about how evil America is because we debate about gay mariage, but they say nothing when Iran HANGS gay men. I think it's 1 part narcissism, and 1 part fear.

Agenda-driven people very rarely want to see paradox, and what we commonly call the "left" in this country is VERY agenda-driven. (Those who identify closely with both sides are to a large extent.) The issues you raise are very valid, and I do not disagree with you fundamentally in the least. I'd almost call it "Narcissism" (as you did), with a LOT of "self-indulgence" and "self-righteousness." I'm not sure how much "fear" they have, though. As you say, they don't have to fear severe reprecussions for their beliefs as folks do elsewhere.

I don't want 'em shipped off or silenced. It's too much fun to prove the folly of their ways. What I don't like is their media lackeys/toadies/lapdogs/whatever trying to shove their nonsense down everyone's throat.

:)

[Mark G]

Must be an election year. A simple topic on who loves America gets turned into a debate on who has more patriotism, the reps or the dems.

Since when does caring about human rights constitute being unpatriotic?

Not taking sides, but suggesting only dems complain (BS),and using that as inuendo to suggest that they have it so lucky they are allowed to complain doesn't sit well. I hear plenty of complaints from both sides,thank you.


Likely to cause me to lose a few popularity points among our Rep. constituents, so be it.

I play no favorites, and call bs when I see it.

[saltandsand]

Referring to Federalist Papers and the Constitution is IMO an analytical approach, one which I would not disagree. Place into the mix the many matters of history and the dialogue becomes ever more complex.

The fact that we can sit here and diss on this and parade about that is what the founders envisioned. Such freedom is not welcome in other countries. Truly we have accomplished a republican empire as was not envisioned at the time when our founders feared criminal prosecution for their action with creating the Republic.

Once founded we must respect the power that has been granted of our existence. Ours in an incredible role, one that we cannot entrust to redcoats or sell outs. Party lines no longer serve the interest of the body politic for it is in the power of freedom that we shall perserve our dignity.

Lobbyist and special interest policy must cease. If your interests are squashed as a result then step up to the plate and become a citizen.

[Al Kai]

Referring to Federalist Papers and the Constitution is IMO an analytical approach, one which I would not disagree. Place into the mix the many matters of history and the dialogue becomes ever more complex.

The fact that we can sit here and diss on this and parade about that is what the founders envisioned. Such freedom is not welcome in other countries. Truly we have accomplished a republican empire as was not envisioned at the time when our founders feared criminal prosecution for their action with creating the Republic.

Once founded we must respect the power that has been granted of our existence. Ours in an incredible role, one that we cannot entrust to redcoats or sell outs. Party lines no longer serve the interest of the body politic for it is in the power of freedom that we shall perserve our dignity.

Lobbyist and special interest policy must cease. If your interests are squashed as a result then step up to the plate and become a citizen.

Rome was an empire, America is not.
You have a empire fixation.

[saltandsand]

Rome was an empire, America is not.
You have a empire fixation.


Nah... it's called American Heritage... save it, repair it, motivate it, leverage it, cherish and treasure it, and most important we each should recognize the Republic that it is while not foresaking it....corporations included.

Let's not be misunderstood...democracy rules!!!

And respect the Constitution and all that it means.

BTW: Not one single word in the post that you responded to contained any passage or ideal of an empire... wondering why you would come to that conclusion??

[BubbaHoTep]

Rome was an empire, America is not.
You have a empire fixation.

Al, I don't agree with the equation of our President, whom I support because he is our President, with an "Emperor" (which carries a negative connotation). I do believe the word "Empire" carries a negative sense as well, and as other threads have pointed out, there may be different ways to define "Empire" or "world presence" or "influence" or whatever.

SnS's use of the word "republican empire" in itself illustrates a very important "conflict" which occurred in our country around the turn of the twentieth century and which has occurred ever since. When you annex territories, as we did after the Spanish-American War, many people questioned whether or not a government based on the "consent of the governed" could take control of overseas possessions (which we did) without sacrificing those principles. The issue was THE central issue in the 1900 Presidential election, and McKinley's victory was viewed as a mandate to move forward with imperial expansion. We were certainly not alone in this, as can be seen by European actions in carving up Turkey (pun intended), as well as in Asia, and Africa. Folks like Charles Francis Adams, George Boutwell, Andrew Carnegie, and Mark Twain were just a few who believed that overseas expansion was incompatible with republican principles.

Like wolfva, I absolutely believe that our nation has done more than any other to help others in their battles for freedom - all around the world. I guess what I fear most are enemies who don't seem to place any value whatsoever on the dignity of the individual and who don't care about freedom in any way, shape, or form.

I am so grateful for what we have.

[saltandsand]

If pissing on treasured land is an inalienable right then by all means piss all over your land...but kindly respect mine. (unless you've got the piss that brings the big bucks over come bow season) :D

[saltandsand]

Al, I don't agree with the equation of our President, whom I support because he is our President, with an "Emperor" (which carries a negative connotation). I do believe the word "Empire" carries a negative sense as well, and as other threads have pointed out, there may be different ways to define "Empire" or "world presence" or "influence" or whatever. In a world where ideological views differ, the imposition of religion, way of life, and governmental structure is tantamount to seeking an empire.

SnS's use of the word "republican empire" in itself illustrates a very important "conflict" which occurred in our country around the turn of the twentieth century and which has occurred ever since. Not antagonising but when, in an era where no sustainable geo-political gain can occur, does a Republic become an entity seeking an empire?When you annex territories, as we did after the Spanish-American War, many people questioned whether or not a government based on the "consent of the governed" could take control of overseas possessions (which we did) without sacrificing those principles. And some are questioning the principles of what is occurring now. The issue was THE central issue in the 1900 Presidential election, and McKinley's victory was viewed as a mandate to move forward with imperial expansion. McKinley having been assassinted. We were certainly not alone in this, as can be seen by European actions in carving up Turkey (pun intended), as well as in Asia, and Africa. Did not the USA and our allies carve up the same ground after WWII that is now the major focus of war at present? Folks like Charles Francis Adams, George Boutwell, Andrew Carnegie, and Mark Twain were just a few who believed that overseas expansion was incompatible with republican principles. :)

Like wolfva, I absolutely believe that our nation has done more than any other to help others in their battles for freedom - all around the world. :) I guess what I fear most are enemies who don't seem to place any value whatsoever on the dignity of the individual and who don't care about freedom in any way, shape, or form. In my humble opinion "LIBERTY before FREEDOM!!"

I am so grateful for what we have. So am I, it's hard to imagine a world without our greatness. Sorry if that rubs the wrong way.


Excellent. Adding, and I hope without detracting, is that Teddy Roosevelt, having served in the Navy and historians debate that he had a penchant to declare war but never realized his chance, he did more to address the problems of his day which continue to trouble the Nation ever since. But his was a day when wars could be waged that were not really declared as wars... that being upon the Native Americans.

Additionally, he was the youngest person to become President that this Nation has ever seen. Kennedy being the youngest elected. Not that old folks don't know much....but sometimes ya gotta wonder.

[Al Kai]

When I hear the word empire, I think of the Roman Empire.

I do not have the time, nor energy to explain the differences between America and the Roman Empire,

The word empire is casually thrown around and in no way appiles to America.

We have and continue to rebuild countries that we go to war against.
We rebuild countries, then return them to the people.
For the Roman Empire to do this would be unthinkable.

That is just 1 difference between America and the Roman Empire.

[J_Lannon]

The funniest thing about the complainers is they are blind to nations in the world which do exactly what they falsely claim we do. How many leftists have you seen criticise Russia for invading Georgia? Or critisise Venuezuala for doing away with civil liberties? Sure, they'll complain loudly about how evil America is because we debate about gay mariage, but they say nothing when Iran HANGS gay men. I think it's 1 part narcissism, and 1 part fear. Let's face it. A person can say anything bad he wants about America and nothing will happen to him. Claim that Bush is an Emperor and is trying to conquer the world? Nada. On the other hand, criticise Vladimir Putin and you may find yourself irradiated.

We truly are the greatest nation in the world; we give more charity, and more blood, to sustain other's freedom then any other country. And we do it selflessly. Is there room for improvement? Of course, and always will be. Nothing is perfect in this world.


Wow...........I missed this while browsing through yesterday. Very very well said!

[redneckranger]

Excellent. Adding, and I hope without detracting, is that Teddy Roosevelt, having served in the Navy and historians debate that he had a penchant to declare war but never realized his chance, he did more to address the problems of his day which continue to trouble the Nation ever since. But his was a day when wars could be waged that were not really declared as wars... that being upon the Native Americans.

Additionally, he was the youngest person to become President that this Nation has ever seen. Kennedy being the youngest elected. Not that old folks don't know much....but sometimes ya gotta wonder.
Dude first off When TR was elected President most of the "Indian Wars" had effectivly been stopped. Most Historians use the Massacre at Wounded Knee in the 1890's as the stopping point there. For one reason not alot of Indian actions(or uprisings to use a better term) took place after Wounded Knee. Secondly McKinley was assinated in 1906 after already having served a four year term where he presided over the Phillipine Insurecction(1900-03). Two Roosevelt did have a penchant to esculation not actually declaring war( Panama Incident 1907). However the biggest hurdle at the time of Teddy's Ascension were the Trusts. Which earned him the Nickname of "trustbuster."

[Hurricane44]

Mike, I'm glad you brought this up.
I love America.
I have sworn to protect her against all enemies, both foreign and domestic.

I ask people a simple question.
What country do they feel is better?
Then If they answer some other country, My reply is, Then why the he** are you still here.
America is the greatest country in the world and If a person will disagree I feel they should leave.

America, love it or leave it.

I'm with Al Kai - I love America, if you don't like it please leave.

[BubbaHoTep]

Secondly McKinley was assinated in 1906 after already having served a four year term where he presided over the Phillipine Insurecction(1900-03).

Uhm, McKinley was assassinated in 1901, after winning elections in 1896 and 1900.

I think what SnS was referring to was TR's "era" in general on the Indian conflicts, as the only declared, official "war" between the CW and WWI was the one with Spain.

[redneckranger]

Uhm, McKinley was assassinated in 1901, after winning elections in 1896 and 1900.

I think what SnS was referring to was TR's "era" in general on the Indian conflicts, as the only declared, official "war" between the CW and WWI was the one with Spain.

Still even by that standard all effective actions stopped after Wounded Knee.

Thanks for the correction i tend to get dates a little confused

[steve grossman]

Is there something fundamentally wrong, with the concept--"Love it or Leave it"??

Is there something fundamentally right about the concept, "Love it, but make it Better"???

[saltandsand]

Uhm, McKinley was assassinated in 1901, after winning elections in 1896 and 1900.

I think what SnS was referring to was TR's "era" in general on the Indian conflicts, as the only declared, official "war" between the CW and WWI was the one with Spain.


You are correct with the references that I as making. Thank you for providing this clarification. It avoids my having to go round and round and round and round with someone who is not taking the time to read, or verify dates and facts.

TR was the youngest person to become president, Kennedy was the youngest to be elected. True???

As to the Native American conflicts, one can hardly say this has ended. Although soveriegn entities, they rarely get the respect giving to other countries when it comes to legal standing, treaty enforcement, etc. Wars can be fought without a single shot, recall the "COLD WAR"?

[saltandsand]

Is there something fundamentally wrong, with the concept--"Love it or Leave it"??

Is there something fundamentally right about the concept, "Love it, but make it Better"???


All depends. Those who desire control and dominination say, "if you're not with me then you're against me" (a.k.a., "Love it or Leave It".)

Those who truly love this country stand for nothing less than "Love it, and Make It Better." Even when making it better is for the common good and against their own interests.

Those who desire control and domination rarely, if ever, stand for anything other than what is in their own selfish interest. These individuals "think" they can present an image to the contrary, be their true self-serving way is quite apparent.

Nice post.

[BubbaHoTep]

TR was the youngest person to become president, Kennedy was the youngest to be elected. True???

I haven't taken time to look into the ages, but TR was in his early 40s when he took over. I think you're correct; it seems like did I read that somewhere many moons ago.

Tangent: TR might very well be my "favorite." I obviously don't remember him, but I used to go to some of those audio archives and listen to his speeches on there. He was an inspiring patriot. Ironically, he had a shrill, high-pitched voice VERY unlike the "John Bullish" image that remains part of his legacy. TR, imo, contributed significantly to the greatness of our nation.

[BubbaHoTep]

All depends. Those who desire control and dominination say, "if you're not with me then you're against me" (a.k.a., "Love it or Leave It".)

SnS, I am not certain I would go *that* far in saying that. I might be 100 percent wrong, but it's very difficult for me to believe that people are *that* selfish and self-indulgent. Maybe they are. I think a lot of people genuinely LOVE their country (without trying to control/dominate it) and that those people believe that detractors (whatever "side" or "party" they're affiliated) are out to destroy what we have. I guess what I'm saying is you may be right to a point, but I'm not sure I'd apply it across the board. In any case, it's food for thought.

Many of the people who constantly "run down" our great nation offer no solutions for improvement. Other folks in this forum have provided excellent examples of that. I don't have much use for folks who constantly "down" our country, but on one level, I have to respect their right to voice an opinion (constructive or otherwise). On another level, though, there's a side of me (which I will admit often "wins out") that wishes they'd just go somewhere else if they can't be remotely constructive.

[BubbaHoTep]

Lobbyist and special interest policy must cease. If your interests are squashed as a result then step up to the plate and become a citizen.

SnS, it sounds like you've been drinking from the "Cicero jug." :D

[SGT.Bunghole]

Sorry guys and gals but im not going to say i love america nor will i say i hate it. However with my financial status and ect.. i cant just up and move. If i could do what some say and get out i would and you know where i would go.....................................Amsterdam. I would just spend my days sitting or working at a coffee shop and my nights would be spent strolling through the red light district. Do that in america and your going to jail. Also murder and rape rates are a tiny fraction of what they are in the U.S.

wonder why that is?

[SGT.Bunghole]

Simply put, AMERICA, love or leave it............ I'm sorry, let me refrase that last part, GET THE F**K OUT! Yeah there are some things that I would like to see change and that's why we have the right and the systems in place to change that. This is the BEST country on the face of the planet. You can go from state to state with no papers, you can speak you your mind and not disappear in the dark of night never to be heard from again. You can protest what ever you want and not have tanks run you over and squash ya like a bug. You have the right to walk out your door and a leak on your land because it's yours. Try doing some of these things in other countries and see what happens.


Well you do need papers to go from state to state. Try getting stopped by the athorities in another state without an id and see what happens to you. Especially after 911...

Speak your mind and you may end up with a ticket for profanity, threatening or even being sued for damaging someones reputation...

You can protest what you want but you better get a permit, even if its a peacefull protest you may not have a tank roll up on you but a military squad might. remember the Kent state shootings in 1970? How about all the people arrested at the first inauguration of bush jr. Many people were arrested for speaking their minds...

A leak on the lawn might get you a indecent exposure ticket. better watch those neighbors while your doing it and better hope they dont have children or we all know what you will be know as...

Not disagreeing with you this is a good county but what im reading seems naive.

[saltandsand]

SnS, it sounds like you've been drinking from the "Cicero jug." :D

Thanks, that's a very nice compliment.

Some quotes from Cicero, Roman author, orator, & politician (106 BC - 43 BC):

Freedom is a possession of inestimable value.

Liberty is rendered even more precious by the recollection of servitude.

Our span of life is brief, but is long enough for us to live well and honestly.

Laws are silent in times of war.

The strictest law often causes the most serious wrong.

The welfare of the people is the ultimate law.

There are some duties we owe even to those who have wronged us. There is, after all, a limit to retribution and punishment.

And a personal favorite: Conceal a flaw, and the world will imagine the worst. Marcus Valerius Martialis (40 - 103)

[saltandsand]

.... but what im reading seems naive.

Some of it sure does, and some of it is callous and indifferent. (And, I'm not speaking to anyone in particular for such expressions surely should be heard, if not to just merely understand what we ought not.)

And then there is some of what's been said that is quite interesting, intriguing of thought, and clearly intended upon improvement. Even though I may not initially agree, or after further consideration, the value is inherently abundant.

The foundation of what I believe you are saying is "Nothing about freedom is free." Or otherwise stated, "Freedom is reserved to those who respect what it is."

Heck... might as well throw out another idea..."Only a fool wants to exclusively be in company those who always agree."

[RuddeDogg]

Well you do need papers to go from state to state. Try getting stopped by the athorities in another state without an id and see what happens to you. Especially after 911...

Speak your mind and you may end up with a ticket for profanity, threatening or even being sued for damaging someones reputation...

You can protest what you want but you better get a permit, even if its a peacefull protest you may not have a tank roll up on you but a military squad might. remember the Kent state shootings in 1970? How about all the people arrested at the first inauguration of bush jr. Many people were arrested for speaking their minds...

A leak on the lawn might get you a indecent exposure ticket. better watch those neighbors while your doing it and better hope they dont have children or we all know what you will be know as...

Not disagreeing with you this is a good county but what im reading seems naive.

By papers I meant visas granting you permission to travel from state to state. Ya don't need that here unless I have been living under a rock.

Speaking your mind, well those statues went by the way of the dodo after a supreme court ruling I can say what I want when I want and that is not against the law. Acting disorderly and disturbing the peace is. That's totally different.

Just like the people that got arrested like you say. They were arrested for disorderly conduct and disturbing the peace not for what they were saying.

As for taking a leak on my own property, that a figure of speach in trying to make a point.

And trust me, I am far from being naive.

[SGT.Bunghole]

It wasnt meant as an attack to you directly dogg. Was just using some of your points to make my own. If anyone here thinks you can just say what you want in this country without any repercusions , ask don imus what he thinks about that. He didnt curse or threaten anyone.

awwwww maybe i should have stayed away from this thread.

[BubbaHoTep]

It wasnt meant as an attack to you directly dogg. Was just using some of your points to make my own. If anyone here thinks you can just say what you want in this country without any repercusions , ask don imus what he thinks about that. He didnt curse or threaten anyone.

awwwww maybe i should have stayed away from this thread.

Imus is back on the air.

[ryan511]

The United States has made some worthwhile and admirable progress in the free speech arena. It's probably one of the top ten nations to live in the world, on my list. Conversely, it has failed resoundingly in its' role as a world leader and, thus, it won't be be for much longer.



IMHO, of course.

[Al Kai]

Well you do need papers to go from state to state. Try getting stopped by the athorities in another state without an id and see what happens to you. Especially after 911...

Speak your mind and you may end up with a ticket for profanity, threatening or even being sued for damaging someones reputation...

You can protest what you want but you better get a permit, even if its a peacefull protest you may not have a tank roll up on you but a military squad might. remember the Kent state shootings in 1970? How about all the people arrested at the first inauguration of bush jr. Many people were arrested for speaking their minds...

A leak on the lawn might get you a indecent exposure ticket. better watch those neighbors while your doing it and better hope they dont have children or we all know what you will be know as...

Not disagreeing with you this is a good county but what im reading seems naive.

We do not have Military Checkpoints set up between American states where mandatory Visa and permission to travel documents are examined.

A simple ID check by local Law Enforcement for individual infractions is not quite the same thing.

I have recently visited other states and was never asked for my ID.

[RuddeDogg]

It wasnt meant as an attack to you directly dogg. Was just using some of your points to make my own. If anyone here thinks you can just say what you want in this country without any repercusions , ask don imus what he thinks about that. He didnt curse or threaten anyone.

awwwww maybe i should have stayed away from this thread.

I understand a 100% and what happened to don Imus was wrong, freedom of speech wise, however, he should have thought before he made those idotic comments espescially on the air.

[J_Lannon]

Don Imus was not run outta town by the US Gov't. He was fired by the radio station under pressure from losing thier sponsors.

I dare you to go into work and call a black lady........."A nappy headed Ho"...........and see if you still have your job?

I like Imus, but his comment was way over the line, and the actions by the station were
justified. The radio station is in busines to make money, and you cannot make money without sponsors. The station had a responsibility to the sponsors for the shows content. Imus is paid to be confrontational and humorous. Theres a big difference between humor and vularity.

I remember the day he made that comment, and saying to myself.....he's gone!

[HellRhaY]

you know where i would go.....................................Amsterdam.
I like Norway, Switzerland, Netherlands or Denmark.

[incucrash]

FAT
http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/9416/americamw1.jpg


That kid has like 500 confirmed kills man!

LOL!!

I love the people, I love the freedom we do have... I hate how things are handled, I hate how people starve while others spend $50,000 on their dogs imported Italian dog ear muffs...

but I can't imagine going somewhere else and living a better life...

Suck it up! :beer:

[Metallica20687]

HellRhay, move to Africa please.

[saltandsand]

HellRhay, move to Africa please.

Uncalled for, nonsense and a comment of absolutely no value.

[saltandsand]

I understand a 100% and what happened to don Imus was wrong, freedom of speech wise, however, he should have thought before he made those idotic comments espescially on the air.


I dare you to go into work and call a black lady........."A nappy headed Ho"...........and see if you still have your job?



Freedom does have a limit and speech has a cost. Just be glad that we can recognize the difference. Due to this episode of American history Imus's contribution is that rappers will be chilled...call me dillusional but I think it's had an effect. Question is "should speech in any non-hate, non-inciting variety be chilled even though it may not be politically acceptable?" Otherwise stated, "If a market exists should the speech be allowed where it is bought and paid for?"

Comedians get away with murderous speech...

[wolfva]

Sorry guys and gals but im not going to say i love america nor will i say i hate it. However with my financial status and ect.. i cant just up and move. If i could do what some say and get out i would and you know where i would go.....................................Amsterdam. I would just spend my days sitting or working at a coffee shop and my nights would be spent strolling through the red light district. Do that in america and your going to jail. Also murder and rape rates are a tiny fraction of what they are in the U.S.

wonder why that is?


Actually, in America you would NOT get arrested for sitting or working at a coffee shop and walkign through red light districts. Sure, if you jay walked in front of an anal retentive officer he'll give you a ticket, but you won't be arrested. Where did you get this idea that you will go to jail just for strolling down a street?

In regards to other statements...
Your freedom of (insert freedom) does NOT give you the right to usurp others freedom. You can not disrupt someone elses political rally because you are abridging the right of all those other folks to hear the person you're trying to scream down. You do not have the right to block entrance to a building or section of town because then you abridge the rights of all the people trying to get in. It seems to me that the protester ilk is so fasts to scream about THEIR rights being offended, yet they couldn't care less about trampling on the rights of others.

As far as you probably should have avoided this topic...nah! C'mon in! We need fresh blood in these debates anyways, gets kind of boring just hearing the same folks talk! Granted, not everyone will agree with you but so what? Differing opinions makes the world go round.

[Hurricane44]

Uncalled for, nonsense and a comment of absolutely no value.

You do see the irony in this post, and obviously now in my post...? Carry on Professor, teach on...

[HellRhaY]

HellRhay, move to Africa please.

Norway, Switzerland, Netherlands or Denmark is in Africa? o.k. miss south carolina, but since this isn't a beauty pageant, please use google for geography lessons.

[saltandsand]

You do see the irony in this post, and obviously now in my post...? Carry on Professor, teach on...

Carry on professor?? It that like carry on luggage? Oh that's right...it's like one of the DingleBerry thingies... :D

[sand flea]

Consider this last call for jerkish behavior on here. My patience with the name-calling, pot stirring and downright stupidity has been reached.