Imagine You're Home Alone.... When..

[LEADDRAFT]

http://www.whitmanfarms.com/ProductImages/apalkihac.jpg



Imagine you're home alone.




It's 8 p.m. You work an early shift and need to be out the door before sunrise, so you're already in bed. Your nerves are a bit frazzled, because earlier in the week someone broke into your home. Oddly, they didn't take anything; they just rifled through your belongings.

But the violation weighs on your mind. At about the time you drift off, you're awakened by fierce barking from your two large dogs. You hear someone crashing into your front door, as if he's trying to separate it from its hinges. You grab the gun you keep for home defense and leave your room to investigate.

This past January that scenario played out at the Chesapeake, Virginia, home of 28-year-old Ryan Frederick, a slight man of little more than 100 pounds. According to interviews since the incident, Frederick says when he looked toward his front door, he saw an intruder trying to enter through one of the lower door panels. So Frederick fired his gun.

The intruders were from the Chesapeake Police Department. They had come to serve a drug warrant. Frederick's bullet struck Detective Jarrod Shivers in the side, killing him. Frederick was arrested and has spent the last six weeks in a Chesapeake jail.

He has been charged with first degree murder. Paul Ebert, the special prosecutor assigned to the case, has indicated he may elevate the charge to capital murder, which would enable the state to seek the death penalty.

At the time of the raid, Ryan Frederick worked for a soft drink merchandiser. Current and former employers and co-workers speak highly of him. He also recently had gotten engaged, a welcome lift for a guy who'd had a run of tough luck.

He lost both parents early in life, and friends say the death of his mother hit particularly hard—Frederick discovered her in bed after she had overdosed on prescription medication. After the deaths of both parents, Frederick grew close to his grandmother, who then died two years ago.

Friends and neighbors describe Frederick as shy, self-effacing, non-confrontational, and hard-working. He had no prior criminal record. Frederick and his friends have conceded he smoked marijuana recreationally. But all—including his neighbors—insist there's no evidence he was growing or distributing the drug.

According to the search warrant, the police raided Frederick's home after a confidential informant told them he saw evidence of marijuana growing in a garage behind the home. The warrant says the informant saw several marijuana plants, plus lights, irrigation equipment and other gardening supplies.

After the raid, the police found the gardening supplies, but no plants. They also found a small amount of marijuana, but not much—only enough to charge Frederick with misdemeanor drug possession.

Frederick told a local television station that he was an avid gardener. A neighbor I spoke with backs him up, explaining that Frederick had an elaborate koi pond behind his home and raised a variety of tropical plants. He'd even given his neighbors gardening tips on occasion.

One of the plants Frederick told the local television station he raised was the Japanese maple, a plant that, when green, has leaves that look quite a bit like marijuana leaves.

So far, Chesapeake police have given no indication that they did any investigation to corroborate the tip from their informant. There's no mention in the search warrant of an undercover drug buy from Frederick or of any extensive surveillance of Frederick's home.

More disturbingly, the search warrant says the confidential informant was inside Frederick's house three days before the raid—about the same time Frederick says someone broke into his home. Frederick's supporters have told me that Frederick and his attorney now know the identity of the informant, and that it was the police informant who broke into Frederick's home.

Chesapeake's police department isn't commenting. But if true, all of this raises some very troubling questions about the raid, and about Frederick's continued incarceration.

Special prosecutor Paul Ebert said at a recent bond hearing for Frederick that Shivers, the detective who was killed, was in Frederick's yard when he was shot, and that Frederick fired through his door, knowing he was firing at police.

Frederick's attorney disputes this. Ebert also said Frederick should have known the intruders were police because there were a dozen or more officers at the scene. But some of Frederick's neighbors dispute this, too. One neighbor told me she saw only two officers immediately after the raid; she said the others showed up only after Shivers went down.

What's clear, though, is that Chesepeake police conducted a raid on a man with no prior criminal record. Even if their informant had been correct, Frederick was at worst suspected of growing marijuana plants in his garage. There was no indication he was a violent man—that it was necessary to take down his door after nightfall.

The raid in Chesapeake bears a striking resemblance to another that ended in a fatality. Last week, New Hanover County, N.C., agreed to pay $4.25 million to the parents of college student Peyton Strickland, who was killed when a deputy participating in a raid mistook the sound of a SWAT battering ram for a gunshot, and fired through the door as Strickland came to answer it.

In the case where a citizen mistakenly (and allegedly) shot through his door at a raiding police officer, the citizen is facing a murder charge; in the case where a raiding police officer mistakenly shot through a door and killed a citizen, there were no criminal charges.

Over the last quarter century, we've seen an astonishing rise in paramilitary police tactics by police departments across America. Peter Kraksa, professor of criminology at the University of Eastern Kentucky, ran a 20-year survey of SWAT team deployments and determined that they have increased 1,500 percent since the early 1980s—mostly to serve nonviolent drug warrants.

This is dangerous, senseless overkill. The margin of error is too thin, and the potential for tragedy too high to use these tactics unless they are in response to an already violent situation (think bank robberies, school shootings or hostage-takings). Breaking down doors to bust drug offenders creates violent situations; it doesn't defuse them.

Shivers' death is only the most recent example. And Ryan Frederick is merely the latest citizen to be put in the impossible position of being awakened from sleep, then having to determine in a matter of seconds if the men breaking into his home are police or criminal intruders.

You wonder how many people can honestly say they'd have handled it any differently than he did.

[wolfva]

First, the ONLY thing you know about this incident is Ryan Fredrick's and his friends side of the story. You know nothing of what actually happened there.

Officer Shrivers died because a CRIMINAL opened fire on him after they ANNOUNCED themselves and attempted to make egress. They did so to avoid loss of evidence, and to avoid giving the suspect time to arm himself. In this instance he was already armed before they could make egress, and he murdered a Police Detective.

Dynamic entries are dangerous. Every officer knows that. And it is so very easy to sit back in the comfort of your safe home and second guess the reasons. Unless you know WHY the dynamic entry was called for, unless you sat in on the planning briefing, or at least have arrested drug suspects yourself, you really have no leg to stand on to critique. For instance, if you did you would no just because there is no indication that a person is going to be violent means only that there is insufficient data. NOT that he's going to be peacefull. And the fact that Frederick opened fire on police, or, according to him, on unknown people behind a door who were NOT threatening his life shows that he WAS violent. Even if his house WAS being broken into, he did not have the legal right to kill the intruders; not until they gained egress and threatened him. No matter which side of the story is true; that he knew they were cops or didn't, the fact remains that he fired through a door with the intent of killing someone. 'nuff said.



It's funny. People do this to cops all the time. Scond guess them. But they never to it to cardiac surgeons. "That surgeon should never have clamped the decending aorta in that manner! It's to dangerous! He should have re-routed over to the pulmonary artery beforehand!"

[Orest]

I won't give most cops the time of day.

How about the NO KNOCK warrant the cops claimed to have had when the enerted the mayor's house in Berlin, MD, killing his 2 pet dogs and one was a running away. Turned out they did not have a NO KNOCK warrant.

[LEADDRAFT]

Wolfva, All due respect, I think you missed the point of the post.
This "wasn't" posted by "his" friends.

OK, Lets Digest this another way.

Lets say, You come back from a Long Day at the beach, Fishing, You have to get to work early the next day, you crash out in bed..
You live in a Seedy, neighborhood, your home broken into the week before.

Drifting off, you suddenly hear crashing though the door, or someone attempting to enter..
I don't know about you, I'm shooting someones AZZ first, then ask questions..
I'm NOT going to wait for, "whomever" to announce that they are breaking in for My health, and don't shoot.

Besides, WHOM said this person was a "Criminal"?
The "Police Informant" who lied to save His own ass?
Was the person a "Criminal" for growing a Japanise Maple, and a Avid Gardener?

He didn't have NO PREVIOUS run-ins with the Law, and NO CRIMINAL RECORD?

So; if you were to protect your family/home from intruders, are YOU a violent Criminal also? Or just a Citizen Protecting your property and Home?
Read this....
http://www.wtkr.com/Global/story.asp?s=8338638

One informant's word.

That's all it took to convince police to raid a home in Chesapeake...a drug raid that would end in the shooting death of 34-year-old Detective Jarrod Shivers.

Now the gunman himself, 28-year-old Ryan Frederick, has revealed the identity of that informant. And NewsChannel Three has learned that informant is now a wanted man...on the run from the law.

In January, that informant told police that Frederick was growing pot at his house. That he saw a scale, packaging items, grow lights and marijuana plants. On January 17th, police broke through the front door of Frederick's Portlock home executing a search warrant for those drugs based on that tip. Frederick opened fire, saying he did not know it was police bursting through his door. He said he thought it was an intruder breaking in because he recently had had someone stealing from his home. In the end, Shivers would die and police would find only a small misdemeanor stash of pot inside. Frederick now sits behind bars charged with first degree murder.

So who is the informant who set off this tragic chain of events? Who is the informant who led police to raid the home of a soda-delivery man with nothing more than a speeding ticket on his record? According to the affidavit for the search warrant that informant is the only source for the raid. There were no corroborating confidential informants. There was no surveillance. There were no undercover dope buys. So who was the sole source for police?

NewsChannel Three has learned he's a 20-year-old with a troubled employment record, who's character has been questioned by multiple sources, and who has a criminal record.

NewsChannel Three has his full name and even has a mug shot, but we are only identifying him by his first name, Steven, because police tell us they are certainly not going to confirm a police informant's name to a reporter.

But in letters to his family, Ryan Frederick identifies Steven as the "confidential informant." Frederick knew him. Steven was dating the sister of Frederick's fiance. Family members tell NewsChannel Three that Frederick accused Steven of stealing something from Frederick's home. Steven got mad and threatened to come back to Frederick's house.

According to multiple sources, Steven worked at Bullies, a Chesapeake restaurant and bar. The owner tells NewsChannel Three that Steven was fired...not once, but twice. The second time came after he had threatened to burn the owner. In fact, according to court records, the owner charged Steven with trespassing and had to take him to court to get him to stop coming in the bar.

According to court records, Steven also has a criminal history. He was arrested on January 15th for grand larceny for stealing a woman's credit cards in Chesapeake. He was also charged with credit card fraud for trying to use those credit cards. Two days after that arrest, police would make the raid on Frederick's home. Did Steven tell police about a possible drug stash in Frederick's home in exchange for dropping his charges? We don't know. But, a few months later, that grand larceny charge WAS dismissed. Those credit card charges WERE nolle prosequi or set aside. That was April.

Now Newschannel Three has learned that those charges have recently resurfaced, in the form of direct indictments. Steven was supposed to be in court last week to face those charges. He was a no show. Now a judge has issued a capias for Steven's arrest. He's listed as a fugitive five times over in Chesapeake court records.

We went to the address listed in those court documents. It's his parents' condo. Steven's father told us he had no idea where Steven is. He said he didn't think Steven would want to talk to a reporter about his knowledge of Ryan Frederick and closed the door on us.

Ryan Frederick's preliminary hearing on first degree murder is less than two weeks away.

[lil red jeep]

This one could surely open up a big can of worms, so I'll simply say that Mr. Frederick will have his day in court starting in January of 2009. He will have an opportunity to call witnesses in his defense and even speak for himself if he chooses to do so. If he opts for a jury or not is up to him and his attorney and when it is all said and done, a decision based no EVIDENCE will be decided on.

I personally think that there is never an excuse to shoot through a closed door at a sound. Hunters have been tried and convicted for shooting at a sound and killing fellow hunters during hunting seasons, because shooting at a sound is STUPID!

Mr. Frederick will have his day in court and if he believes that he was justified in shooting through a door because he heard a sound, let that be his defense and then he can choose which arm the needle will go in.

Lets face it. This is a big scary world and if you live in fear and think you have to carry a gun around because a sound frightens you, then you have big problems.

A dedicated father and police officer died because Frederick heard a noise? Please. Blame who you want, but Shivers didn't deserve to die by the hands of a coward, and people who think Frederick was right in what he did have issues of their own they need to deal with.

Frederick will have his day. Lets just see how it plays out.

[Orest]

for protecting his property?

What would you have done????

Have a plate of cookies and a glass of milk waiting.

If the person Mr. Frederick thought was truely a robber; ever NRA member would be patting Mr. Frederick on the back and calling him a hero.

[Southern Man]

What a fine job America's Finest are doing on the WAR ON DRUGS.

Let me tell you what just happened in Horry County SC. County Police Officer breaks into, a Real Estate office, steals a lap top computer, a digital camera, and a monitor ( o it gets better ). This clown takes the computer home and goes on line with it, within two hours of stealing it. They trace the computer back to his home via the unique signal from the computer.
They bust him at his home. (It still gets better)
They drop the charges of Breaking and entering, and Grand Larceny, and charge him with misconduct in office.
The clown walks away with 3 years probation.

In summery the precedent is set. If a Horry County Police Officer breaks into your home, walks away with all of your possessions, and happens to get caught then he walks away with Misconduct in office and 3 years probation.

As a resident of Horry County SC this is scary, very scary indeed.

Now I'm suppose to have respect for clowns like this ? I freaking thing NOT.

[Southern Man]

This one could surely open up a big can of worms, so I'll simply say that Mr. Frederick will have his day in court starting in January of 2009. He will have an opportunity to call witnesses in his defense and even speak for himself if he chooses to do so. If he opts for a jury or not is up to him and his attorney and when it is all said and done, a decision based no EVIDENCE will be decided on.

I personally think that there is never an excuse to shoot through a closed door at a sound. Hunters have been tried and convicted for shooting at a sound and killing fellow hunters during hunting seasons, because shooting at a sound is STUPID!

Mr. Frederick will have his day in court and if he believes that he was justified in shooting through a door because he heard a sound, let that be his defense and then he can choose which arm the needle will go in.

Lets face it. This is a big scary world and if you live in fear and think you have to carry a gun around because a sound frightens you, then you have big problems.

A dedicated father and police officer died because Frederick heard a noise? Please. Blame who you want, but Shivers didn't deserve to die by the hands of a coward, and people who think Frederick was right in what he did have issues of their own they need to deal with.

Frederick will have his day. Lets just see how it plays out.



The raid in Chesapeake bears a striking resemblance to another that ended in a fatality. Last week, New Hanover County, N.C., agreed to pay $4.25 million to the parents of college student Peyton Strickland, who was killed when a deputy participating in a raid mistook the sound of a SWAT battering ram for a gunshot, and fired through the door as Strickland came to answer it.

In the case where a citizen mistakenly (and allegedly) shot through his door at a raiding police officer, the citizen is facing a murder charge; in the case where a raiding police officer mistakenly shot through a door and killed a citizen, there were no criminal charges.



So is this where the double standard comes into play?
You can't have it both ways its either one way or the other.
So which is it?

[fyremanjef]

I won't give most cops the time of day.

How about the NO KNOCK warrant the cops claimed to have had when the enerted the mayor's house in Berlin, MD, killing his 2 pet dogs and one was a running away. Turned out they did not have a NO KNOCK warrant.

That was Berwyn Heights, MD. Between Greenbelt and College Park. Actually its where lake Artemesia is.

But from what I heard its pretty shady. I dont know. I'd be pissed if my dogs were killed.

[Rockfish1]

According to interviews since the incident, Frederick says when he looked toward his front door, he saw an intruder trying to enter through one of the lower door panels.

sounds like they were getting into the house to me... he didn't shoot through any door at an unseen person...

[mountainsalt]

Sounds like wolfva and lilredjeep are just standing up for a brother/bastage in blue. This incedent along with the NC,SC and MD incedents only add more disrespect for police officers. I have known some respectable and truely extrodinary officers the perpertrators of these deeds are not them. Sorry for the detective who lost his life but it sounds like it was of his own making. I remember he only fired at an intruder busting through and sounds like in his house already. Don't remember reading anything about their announcing theirselves as police until maybe after an officer was down,( to late then).
Definately smells of double standard and the law states that if you feel threatened you have a right to defend yourself even from lawenforcement.
All I can say he didn't do anything I wouldn't have in a similar situation.
I feel for and pray for the cops family and this kid.

[lil red jeep]

for protecting his property?

What would you have done????

Have a plate of cookies and a glass of milk waiting.

If the person Mr. Frederick thought was truely a robber; ever NRA member would be patting Mr. Frederick on the back and calling him a hero.

Well for starters, I'm not an NRA member,nor would I be. You see, as a law enforcement officer for 25 years, I don't share the same opinion as the NRA that everyone should have a gun strapped to their sides. But that is a different thread.

As for Frederick, or anyone else for that matter, shooting blindly through a door is exactly what I mean as being a coward. It could just as easily had been a neighborhood kid knocking on his door selling girlscout cookies for all he knew, and if it had been, then everyone would be out to crucify him. Because it was the police, it's o.k. to shoot a cop?

As for SoMan., first off, this happened in VIRGINIA, and not South Carolina. In Virginia, a person has to be able to spell POLICE in order to be one. South Carolina doesn't hold their police to that high a standard. What does a Horry Co officer breaking into a real estate office have to do with the WAR ON DRUGS like you start your post with? And by the way, learn to hit spell check. It may help.

Rockfish, what do you expect Frederick to say when he is looking at the death penalty?

Lastly, Mount, your response that "Sorry for the detective who lost his life but it sounds like it was of his own making" is just as misinformed as the others in this thread. You see, Det. Shivers was in the front yard when he was struck, and NOT coming through the door. Fredericks bullet went through a closed door striking Shivers 15 yards away!

I am clearly too close to this issue to make further comment, so have fun Cop bashing without me chiming in. Lets just leave it at this, we don't want to go fishing together. I don't think that would work too well.

[Southern Man]

Well for starters, I'm not an NRA member,nor would I be. You see, as a law enforcement officer for 25 years, I don't share the same opinion as the NRA that everyone should have a gun strapped to their sides. But that is a different thread.

As for Frederick, or anyone else for that matter, shooting blindly through a door is exactly what I mean as being a coward. It could just as easily had been a neighborhood kid knocking on his door selling girlscout cookies for all he knew, and if it had been, then everyone would be out to crucify him. Because it was the police, it's o.k. to shoot a cop?

As for SoMan., first off, this happened in VIRGINIA, and not South Carolina. In Virginia, a person has to be able to spell POLICE in order to be one. South Carolina doesn't hold their police to that high a standard. What does a Horry Co officer breaking into a real estate office have to do with the WAR ON DRUGS like you start your post with? And by the way, learn to hit spell check. It may help.

Rockfish, what do you expect Frederick to say when he is looking at the death penalty?

Lastly, Mount, your response that "Sorry for the detective who lost his life but it sounds like it was of his own making" is just as misinformed as the others in this thread. You see, Det. Shivers was in the front yard when he was struck, and NOT coming through the door. Fredericks bullet went through a closed door striking Shivers 15 yards away!

I am clearly too close to this issue to make further comment, so have fun Cop bashing without me chiming in. Lets just leave it at this, we don't want to go fishing together. I don't think that would work too well.

Damn I wish he had stayed around long enough to tell me why it was OK for a cop to shoot a college kid dead through a closed door, and addressed the double standard. But no he wants to spell check someones post.
I guess diversion is the best tactic. The Bush Administration has worked it well for 7 1/2 + years.

[J_Lannon]

Not one person on this board knows exactly what happened during those moments when the shot was fired that killed that police officer.

Why dont we all wait until all the facts come out before we start talking excessive force, and other scenarios.

[jhmorgan]

As someone who just moved from Great Bridge, town next South Norfolk, let me just say a few things.

This was not a "seedy neighborhood" leaddraft. I have a very well off friend, actually my g/f's brother, who lives one street over. Its your average blue collar/retired SONO neighborhood.

I have a lot of people with intimate knowledge of this story, including a best friends mother who works at the prosecutors office, but I know better than to pass judgement before we know as many facts as possible. I wont say ALL THE FACTS because we all know there will be some that do not ever come out..

[SGT.Bunghole]

EVEN I NEW THAT PICTURE WAS A JAP MAPLE!!!!!!!!!!

Where was the reconnaissance work? Where was the buy? Where was anything but what ONE random guy said?

This is another reason i want to live in amsterdam. Americas drug policy and police force is screwed up plain and simple.

You guys say that he shot this and that and wasnt threatened ect blah blah blah....

How about this case that happened last year in chesapeake as well:rolleyes: http://www.topix.com/forum/city/chesapeake-va/T54QOFP9D2SD7LOIQ
couldnt find a better link maybe this will refresh your memory.. but a teen was drunk and trying to get in his nieghbors house. She shot him.... she wasnt threatened he didnt have a weapon, he was just trying to get in his house but it was the wrong one(next door over). Apparently they were or did file charges against ..................the teen who was shot.

So to the officers on here what right did this lady have to shoot this kid that the suspect in the grow op didnt????????????????????????
Neither said they knew who it was? Word agaist word and we know who wins!
c.a.u.p.o.s!

[jhmorgan]

doube post

[jhmorgan]

Man you guys make Great Bridge sound like a hell hole. That was off of waters road in a rather affluent neighborhood, and his relative was a year behind me at GBHS. Was really actually a funny story besides the getting shot part, the kid loved to tell it at parties....

[RuddeDogg]

This may tick some people off, but oh well.

I have worked in law enforcement for 20 years, all be it in communications. I have been on duty for several search warrants that were executed. What pisses me off is that the majority of people who sit in judgement of police officers, (THEY DID THIS WRONG OR THAT WRONG) have no friggin clue what the hell they are talking about because they have NEVER done the job. They don't know how the process of gathering information and intelligence works. Granted, mistakes are and have been made. NO ONE IS PERFECT. IF an investigation is not properly things like this and others happen. BUT...if the investigation is done properly, and the officerwas lied to by an informant, and the officer is unaware of that fact they, the SWAT teams and any other agency involved are acting in good faith on the information they have. How does the officer know if an informant is lying or not? They don't teach mind reading in the police academy AND they really don't have time to ask Miss Cleo or Sylvia Browne if the information is correct and valid. If there is or was wrong doing committed by law enforcement, I will be the first one to say that they MUST be held accountable. There are 3 sides to every story. Yours, thiers and the truth. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and has the right voice it, BUT, unless you have been there behind the badge you shouldn't be so quick to judge. Not ALL cops are bad or corrupt like some would have you believe. Those people watch way too much tv. Not everything is a conspiracy. Not all cops are out to get you. And in closing, that cop you don't give the time of day to, maybe, just maybe may save your life or a loved ones someday.

[wolfva]

I dunno. Reading some of the replies here I get the feeling some here believe that an informant goes, "Hey! That guy there gots some dope in his house!" to which the cops go, "COOL! C'mon! Let's go bash his door in!". I guess that's what they do on 'The Shield' or some other show. Reality is a wee bit different. First, confidential informants are cultivated over a period of time. Those that aren't trustworthy (read: they give bad info) don't get listened to. But if they've proven in the past to be accurate, they are used. And yes, often these informants are criminals. They get lighter sentences, or charges dropped to lower charges, etc. Want to know something though? The cops don't do that. The JUDGE does. Because cops don't determine the sentence. That's what judges are for.

So, the informant drops the dime, the detectives determine if there is enough information for a warrant. This usually means MORE info then just that informant, unless he's given really good intel in the past. Now, do the cops write up a warrant then bash a door in? NOPE. They write the warrant then go to a judge and ask HIM to sign the warrant. See, cops don't sign warrants, Judges do. That's what judges are for. The Judge judges whether or not there is enough information for probable cause to issue the warrant; if so he'll sign it.

There are a couple of different types of warrants. I'll address 2 here; knock and no knock. No knock means the cops bash in the door while shouting, "POLICE SERVING A SEARCH WARRANT" or something similar. No knock warrants aren't as common as TV would lead you to believe. Knock warrants, especially in drug cases where there is a real fear the evidence may be destroyed or the suspect may arm himself, involve a loud knock, several shouts of "Police SERVING A SEARCH WARRANT' or similar, and then bashing the door in. The officers only have to give you a reasonable amount of time to open the door, they don't have to wait for you to open up.

As Rude pointed out, there are 3 sides to every story. So far the ONLY side that has been told is Frederick's. Alot of people are taking what he says as the gospel truth. Well, here is a hypothetical question. Let us say, hypothetically, someone is growing dope with intent to sell. Let us also say, hypothetically, that he murders a Police Officer serving a warrant. Now, do you think that he can do those crimes yet lying would be beyond him? Again, hypothetically. It's kind of funny, but people engaged in criminal enterprises are often liars. Go figure. And sure, Frederick didn't have a criminal record. So? At some point in time every single criminal who has ever existed didn't have a record. Gotta start somewhere.

Some people here have said the cops shouldn't have just taken the informant's word for what was in the house. How do they know the cops did? They don't. They're assuming. Some say that it was just a Japanese maple tree. Except the cops took a number of plants out, and apparently the Grand Jury believed the lab reports (because they actually do run lab reports to make sure the illegal substances are actually illegal) enough to sign off on the charges.

Last point I'll make in this reply. Some people are using this incident as a platform for legalising drugs. Well, guess what spankies? Certain drugs are ILLEGAL. The Cops did NOT make them illegal. The LEGISLATURE did. Getting mad at the Police for doing their jobs (enforcing the law) is just as stupid as getting mad at the plumber for unclogging a sink, or getting mad at a cardiac surgeon for replacing a heart valve. You want to get mad at someone? Get mad at the State Senators. You don't like the laws? Then lobby to get them changed. Petition your representatives. Heck, run for office yourself; pro-legalisation candidates HAVE won office afterall. But if you break the law...then be prepared for the consequences. Because we are a society. And the basis of a society is law. Without laws, there is NO society, only anarchy. And anarchy only lasts until someone strong enough comes around and really starts abridging your 'rights'.

[JeepMike]

You know, I always find it funny that people will cop bash until they need them. In my experiences, the people that cry about the police most often are people that get in trouble with the police most often. How do you know this guy hasn't been popped for mad drug charges only to get them expunged because he was a juvenile? He could've been on his way to a monk monastary. My point is there is always much more to these things than what we can get from a few news clippings.

I feel for police sometimes; they work crazy hours, sometimes getting in crazy situations, and always have to deal with some jerks who think they are "better" or "know more" than them. I'm glad SWAT is around, keeping crazies off the street. I am glad it is up 1,500%.

How would YOU make the world safer Sgt. Bunghole, sit around smokin dope all day?

p.s. drugs are for losers

[SGT.Bunghole]

Ron paul was completely pro legalization and the media wouldnt give him the time of day. legislation had little to do with anything. It was mainly harry j anslinger and his cronies. Funny thing is wolfva there are a few states (12) that allow people licenses to grow a certain amount of marijuana plants (your a cop you should know this),how about prop215 as well. To bad the local police dont protect these law abiding citizens when the federal government comes smashing down there door,(Steve Kubby for example). The police that work for the state this is happening in dont protect the rights of these license holding individuals. I find that disturbing to say the least.

Before this cop was shot , where was the victim in this case?

No mention of the lady that shot her neighbors kid through the door?

EDIT. jeepmike do you take tylenol, pain pills, drink, smoke tobacco use caffine? They are drugs so i guess that would make a whole lot of people losers. Anyway i have never said i smoke marijuana, ever. I may have said that i would move somewhere i legally could doesnt mean i break the law where i live now. If i were to say im pro abortion does that mean i have cut babies out of women? This is just my take on this. The whole point behind this thread is a cop has lost his life a man is in jail, for what pot? wow what a world.

[Mark G]

I think the only reason this was brought up in the first place was to point to the apparent double standard.

Forget the "facts" of each case as we don't know them, as already has been stated.

Simply answer the question- if it is conceivable that a police officer is allowed to make a mistake and kill someone needlessly due to a mistake on their part, then how is it not conceivable that a citizen might make the same mistake, if in fact they are startled, by the sound of someone breaking the door in.

Granted, we don't know the facts, and that goes for both sides. It's quite natural to expect law enforcement types to defend the actions of another officer, but to do so blindly without firsthand knowledge might be loyalty to the cause, but does not equate to making a situation right. And remember the officer is supposedly trained to handle confrontation- someone breaking down my door is sure to scare the bejeezus out of me- especially if I am startled while in bed.

If anything it should be understood that citizens with guns are more likely to make a mistake than a trained police officer, and determining whether there was knowledge/intent on their part to "knowingly" shoot down an officer is for the jury to sort out.

I agree it is wrong to sit back and second guess an officer's actions based on news stories and misinformation. I also believe it is wrong to sit here and pass judgment that, because someone is suspected of criminal behavior, that some how diminishes their right to due process.

For the law community not to sit back and reflect that, just perhaps- their methods of home invasion might contribute to one of their own being "mistakenly" shot is indefensible.

[Cdog]

I dunno. Reading some of the replies here I get the feeling some here believe that an informant goes, "Hey! That guy there gots some dope in his house!" to which the cops go, "COOL! C'mon! Let's go bash his door in!". I guess that's what they do on 'The Shield' or some other show. Reality is a wee bit different. First, confidential informants are cultivated over a period of time. Those that aren't trustworthy (read: they give bad info) don't get listened to. But if they've proven in the past to be accurate, they are used. And yes, often these informants are criminals. They get lighter sentences, or charges dropped to lower charges, etc. Want to know something though? The cops don't do that. The JUDGE does. Because cops don't determine the sentence. That's what judges are for.
Actually, reality is that sometimes it happens exactly like that.

Many years ago in a different lifetime my house got raided and I got arrested.The cops came in looking for pounds of weed that supposedly my room mate was dealing. Long story short they found a bong and a pipe. What was better is that the charges were dismissed because the name on the warrant was Kenny. No last name, just what as it turned out was a drunk who wrecked a car, made up a story about my room mate.

Not saying that this is the way that it happens all the time, just pointing out that your assertion that it never happens is wrong.

[redneckranger]

First of that is a definatly a picture of a Jap Maple( im a trained Gardener i would know LOL) my guess it would be of the Waterfall Variety. If pruned correctly it would come off as a Marajuana plant(Cannabis Savata). In fact I have pruned some for clients that if I didn't know better I would have even thought it is was Marajuana.

Secondly can't fault the officer for doing his job and the mistaken identity of the plant(if any).

Can't fault the shooter cuz if someone is beating down my door and rouses me out of bed I would shoot now shoot later shoot til he's dead then try to ask a few questions.

[Metallica20687]

JeepMike, I smoke pot, i work 50 hours a week, also donate to 2 charities out of every paycheck, and i do many activities, but im a loser in your book. Ill keep my book closed for the sake of this thread.

[wolfva]

Ron paul was completely pro legalization and the media wouldnt give him the time of day. legislation had little to do with anything. It was mainly harry j anslinger and his cronies. Funny thing is wolfva there are a few states (12) that allow people licenses to grow a certain amount of marijuana plants (your a cop you should know this),how about prop215 as well. To bad the local police dont protect these law abiding citizens when the federal government comes smashing down there door,(Steve Kubby for example). The police that work for the state this is happening in dont protect the rights of these license holding individuals. I find that disturbing to say the least.

Before this cop was shot , where was the victim in this case?

No mention of the lady that shot her neighbors kid through the door?

EDIT. jeepmike do you take tylenol, pain pills, drink, smoke tobacco use caffine? They are drugs so i guess that would make a whole lot of people losers. Anyway i have never said i smoke marijuana, ever. I may have said that i would move somewhere i legally could doesnt mean i break the law where i live now. If i were to say im pro abortion does that mean i have cut babies out of women? This is just my take on this. The whole point behind this thread is a cop has lost his life a man is in jail, for what pot? wow what a world.


First paragraph: Ron Paul got plenty of attention in the Media; he didn't get far electorally because the voters weren't interested in him. You're right, I do know about the legalisation stuff you mentioned. And your point is? None of that has anything to do with the topic, although your points DO back mine that pro-legalisation candidates have won office.

The police are not here to protect your rights, or to protect the individual. They are there to protect SOCIETY as a whole. According to the Surpreme Court anyways. So, to answer your question as to why the cops aren't protecting rights...well, why isn't the plumber doing thoracic surgery? Same reason. Not their job. That's why we have lawyers afterall.

2) The victim was society. Again, it is the job of the police to protect society as a whole. A society is maintained via laws. If someone breaks the law, he is assualting society as a whole. Don't like that? Then get the laws changed, don't kvetch about the guys just doing their job.

3) Nope. No mention. Has nothing to do with the topic. In any case, it's up to the judicial branch (the states prosecutor), not the executive branch (which includes the cops) to determine if her actions were legal.

4)There is a big difference between equating legal drugs with illegal drugs. Mainly, one is LEGAL, the other ILLEGAL. Learn the difference.

Simply answer the question- if it is conceivable that a police officer is allowed to make a mistake and kill someone needlessly due to a mistake on their part, then how is it not conceivable that a citizen might make the same mistake, if in fact they are startled, by the sound of someone breaking the door in.

That is why we have courts and juries. They listen to the evidence and make the determination. Citizens have the legal right to kill a police officer in the protection of their own lives if they are innocent of all wrong doing and the officer is unjustly endangering their life. This was established in Norfolk County in 1956 (pretty sure, could be 1936 though) when Norfolk police chased a criminal across state lines, engaged him in a shootout, and one officer died. It was judged justifiable since, at that time, officers could not cross jurisdictions, even in hot pursuit. Since the man hadn't committed any crimes in NC, it was judged the Police had no legal right to try and affect an arrest. Shortly after that incident the Hot Pursuit laws came into existance. There have also been a number of cases over the years of home owners (mainly in Texas) shooting cops searching for fleeing suspects on accident because they thought the cops were burglars. They were acquitted.

See, that's why the system is set up the way it is. Just because a person is arrested does NOT mean he is guilty of the crime. The cops do NOT judge guilt. That's why they arrest based on PROBABLE cause, not DEFINATE cause. All they do is enforce the law. Evidence goes to the court, and it is THERE that a determination of guilt or innocence is decided. It is possible that everything Frederick has said is true; if so he will be acquitted. He'll then file a lawsuit against the city and make lots of money.

Cdog, I never said it never happened. I said reality was a wee bit different then in shows like 'The Shield'. As you yourself stated, your incident was a long time ago. So, please don't assert that I asserted something I never asserted :).

Alot of talk here about waking up to someone breaking in your door and being justified in shooting. Well, what if you're waking up to the police shouting, "POLICE! OPEN THE DOOR! POLICE!"? Would you still shoot? My advice is don't. If you're completely innocent of any wrongdoing and it is a mistake on their behalf then any damage to your house will be paid in full, they'll be very appologetic, and you'll get a nice settlement if you want one. If you're not innocent...wellll.....

[fishedn]

the shot could have missed everyone but hit someone far away from the door, or at least this is the way it was put forth.

accident


and in a neighborhood known by the cops, probably not very far away, you can buy any kind of drug known to man and the bad ass cops don't want none of that, rather beat some regular guys door down and kick his unlucky arse.

play with fire and you get burned

[Mark G]

Alot of talk here about waking up to someone breaking in your door and being justified in shooting. Well, what if you're waking up to the police shouting, "POLICE! OPEN THE DOOR! POLICE!"? Would you still shoot? My advice is don't. If you're completely innocent of any wrongdoing and it is a mistake on their behalf then any damage to your house will be paid in full, they'll be very appologetic, and you'll get a nice settlement if you want one. If you're not innocent...wellll.....

You make some good points, actually the same ones I did when I said it was for the jury to determine the shooters intent.

THe problem with the above quoted statment is obvious. An individual that is asleep is surely not going to comprehend what someone shouts through a wall. It will be the door breaking down that alerts them that "something is going on".

To expect a groggy semi-awake person to not respond with force (if they are capable) to what
is perceived as an attack surely doesn't seem right. Most are not likely to anticipate that it might be the good guys kicking in the door, if in fact they are innocent of wrongdoing.

Which as we both said, is for the jury to decide.

[bctom]

You know, I always find it funny that people will cop bash until they need them. In my experiences, the people that cry about the police most often are people that get in trouble with the police most often. How do you know this guy hasn't been popped for mad drug charges only to get them expunged because he was a juvenile? He could've been on his way to a monk monastary. My point is there is always much more to these things than what we can get from a few news clippings.

I feel for police sometimes; they work crazy hours, sometimes getting in crazy situations, and always have to deal with some jerks who think they are "better" or "know more" than them. I'm glad SWAT is around, keeping crazies off the street. I am glad it is up 1,500%.

How would YOU make the world safer Sgt. Bunghole, sit around smokin dope all day?

p.s. drugs are for losers

Got nothing against cops, but the trend seems to be para-military , which should be left to the military. recently returned from a 2 year job on Kwajalein atoll, where the cops were totally out of hand, have seen them blow up more Marshallese bags of clothes, due to being overzealous on the bomb scare thing.
But I need to ask you this, Hatteras Island is one of the top leaders in the state for drug abuse, and it seems that everyone looks the other way.
The neighbor across the street from me had 10-15 cars a night in her driveway for 5-10 minutes then gone, after many calls to the sheriffs office, absolutely nothing was ever done, due to the fact that she was related to a former law enforcement offical. Called a friend that I flew with in cambodia, who now works DEA, she was in rehab the next day, and all done in the middle of the night. One of the reasons I now live in Manteo. We will always have to be policed, but serious looks at their tactics and methods needs to be approached.

[BigBlueFord]

JeepMike, I smoke pot, i work 50 hours a week, also donate to 2 charities out of every paycheck, and i do many activities, but im a loser in your book. Ill keep my book closed for the sake of this thread.

Yes, smoking dope does make you a loser!! It probably also contributes as to why you see so many aliens and UFO's out on the beach all baked up....Oh and by the way,, I dont think NORML and NAMBLA qualify as charities for tax puposes....Just a quick tip for ya

[redneckranger]

Dude that was wrong I don't think he belongs to National Association of Marlon Barnod Lookalike

ne ways why are you gonna smear with that NAMBLA stuff man?? You need to go somewhere

[JeepMike]

pretty sure that aint the National Association of Marlon Brando Look Alikes....

On another note, tylenol, caffeine, and alcohol are legal. How about illegal drugs are for losers.

I have yet to identify even a single case of a pothead or other druggie leading a successful life. Of course that is all open to interpretation... But if sitting around stoned, not making it to work on time, looking for your car and wondering why the government won't legalize is your idea of succesful life, then I guess some of us will agree to disagree.

And I'm not tryin to personally attack anyone on this board, just my .02

[BigBlueFord]

pretty sure that aint the National Association of Marlon Brando Look Alikes....
On another note, tylenol, caffeine, and alcohol are legal. How about illegal drugs are for losers.

I have yet to identify even a single case of a pothead or other druggie leading a successful life. Of course that is all open to interpretation... But if sitting around stoned, not making it to work on time, looking for your car and wondering why the government won't legalize is your idea of succesful life, then I guess some of us will agree to disagree.

And I'm not tryin to personally attack anyone on this board, just my .02

LMAO,,,,sorry that is too funny:D

[Lipyourown]

Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Nancy Reagan, Rush Limbaugh, Jennifer Capriati, George Carlin, Johnny Cash, Whitney Houston, Oliver Stone, Hank Williams Jr., Sigmund Freud, Stephen King, Winston Churchill- come to mind- all drug addicts with some success even though the first two deny it. The last two presidents were users and the front runner today doesn't deny it. Are they losers? I don't know but some have shaped the world we live in today. The Taliban, however, strive to be clean and sober.

Booze and cigarettes kill far more. I'm not saying drugs are good but watch the blanket statements.

FYI, the cops really screwed up that bust IMO. They sound like amateurs with a very shady lead at best and then the inabilty of breaking a door down (so lets try to crawl through a tight hole at drug dealers house). I don't know if the guy should have shot or not but the blood is on the cops hands IMO.

The bust that happened to that mayor in MD was outrageous...gotta watch out for those black labs running away from you, you know. Sounds like some gungho yahoos who didn't deserve a badge.

Everyone makes mistakes, it is those who don't admit it that are the real losers. Cops have a supreme responsibilty in society, when they screw up and try to cover it up...well that is the sign of a corrupt agency and an immoral individual. For those who always defend the cops- please don't pretend a job title dictates character. For those who always bash the cops, they serve an important role we can not do with out.

I have seen some very crooked police work and some very courageous police work. If they could weed out the bad ones, thier job would be so much better (and more appreciated).

[Metallica20687]

BigBlue, do you know anything about anything?

#1) Marijuana does NOT give you hallucinations
#2) You don't know me, dont you ever make a judgement about me over your computer screen, coward, if you met me before this thread you would have probably very much enjoyed my company. That will not happen though, now that i know what kind of person you are.

[SGT.Bunghole]

Its not nice to stereotype people.:)

[Southern Man]

Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Nancy Reagan, Rush Limbaugh, Jennifer Capriati, George Carlin, Johnny Cash, Whitney Houston, Oliver Stone, Hank Williams Jr., Sigmund Freud, Stephen King, Winston Churchill- come to mind- all drug addicts with some success even though the first two deny it. The last two presidents were users and the front runner today doesn't deny it. Are they losers? I don't know but some have shaped the world we live in today. The Taliban, however, strive to be clean and sober.

Booze and cigarettes kill far more. I'm not saying drugs are good but watch the blanket statements.

FYI, the cops really screwed up that bust IMO. They sound like amateurs with a very shady lead at best and then the inabilty of breaking a door down (so lets try to crawl through a tight hole at drug dealers house). I don't know if the guy should have shot or not but the blood is on the cops hands IMO.

The bust that happened to that mayor in MD was outrageous...gotta watch out for those black labs running away from you, you know. Sounds like some gungho yahoos who didn't deserve a badge.

Everyone makes mistakes, it is those who don't admit it that are the real losers. Cops have a supreme responsibilty in society, when they screw up and try to cover it up...well that is the sign of a corrupt agency and an immoral individual. For those who always defend the cops- please don't pretend a job title dictates character. For those who always bash the cops, they serve an important role we can not do with out.

I have seen some very crooked police work and some very courageous police work. If they could weed out the bad ones, thier job would be so much better (and more appreciated).
Some people live under a rock, some are just plain ******, some really don't like it when you try and confuse the issue with facts.

[Newsjeff]

I don't mind when the people around me get high when I'm fishing or playing cards.

I just take their money and catch more fish.

[Metallica20687]

Jeepmike, read my previous post.. im very happy with my life, aside from the economy and how my place of work is dealing with it. I am also only 21 years old, have an apartment and own a nice vehicle that is payed off.
I know you dont care whats going on in my life...just trying to prove my point...
I do agree pot can make you a lazy couch potatoe, but not a strong minded person.

PM me if you want to continue the conversation, dont want to keep jacking the thread.

[JeepMike]

Agreed. I'm for real glad your doing well Metallica, no hard feelings, just good old fashioned open dialogue about opinions. It's a wonderful place we live to where we can discuss such things.

[Cdog]

I don't mind when the people around me get high when I'm fishing or playing cards.

I just take their money and catch more fish.
I'd rather fish with someone smoking pot then a drunk.

The pot head may be slow but wont want to fight you when you cut there line cuz they aint paying attention...

[basstardo]

I'd rather fish with someone smoking pot then a drunk.

The pot head may be slow but wont want to fight you when you cut there line cuz they aint paying attention...

Gotta agree with Clay. If you're at a concert and some idiot is screaming and wanting to start a fight, there's a good chance he ain't smoking pot and is probably drunk. They might be slow, but that just means I get to the fish faster. :p;)

[BigBlueFord]

BigBlue, do you know anything about anything?

#1) Marijuana does NOT give you hallucinations
#2) You don't know me, dont you ever make a judgement about me over your computer screen, coward, if you met me before this thread you would have probably very much enjoyed my company. That will not happen though, now that i know what kind of person you are.

Metallica #1, yes I know marijuana does not give you hallucinations, #2, no, I dont know you, #3, You definately dont know me, I may be an a$$hole at times but I am definately not a coward. Call me what you want, I dont care. Your post just struck a nerve with me since last week I saw a freind of mine get shot in the chest 3 times over 600 worth of weed, that the COWARD never intended to bring. For what it's worth I apologize, I was wrong. Sometimes I just lash out when Im frustrated. Lastly, Yes I am a police officer that has been working narcotics for the last 11 years. I do agree with you on your last point. I probably would like to hang out with ya, I have actually liked a lot of the people I have arrested. People just tend to make different choices in life, right , wrong or indifferent.

[Newsjeff]

Gary, since I haven't see you in a couple of weeks, I had a feeling you were working the night Mr. Phillips was killed.

I am sorry for your loss.

Peace be with his family and friends.

[BigBlueFord]

Thanks Jeff. Ill call ya bout the house...By the way Im done with this thread, ALL of it is senseless!!

[Metallica20687]

accepted, appreciated, and understood.

my sympathy for your loss man.

[JeepMike]

Dang bigford, sorry to hear that man. Thoughts and prayers with yah.

[redneckranger]

Metallica #1, yes I know marijuana does not give you hallucinations, #2, no, I dont know you, #3, You definately dont know me, I may be an a$$hole at times but I am definately not a coward. Call me what you want, I dont care. Your post just struck a nerve with me since last week I saw a freind of mine get shot in the chest 3 times over 600 worth of weed, that the COWARD never intended to bring. For what it's worth I apologize, I was wrong. Sometimes I just lash out when Im frustrated. Lastly, Yes I am a police officer that has been working narcotics for the last 11 years. I do agree with you on your last point. I probably would like to hang out with ya, I have actually liked a lot of the people I have arrested. People just tend to make different choices in life, right , wrong or indifferent.

Since your a police officer you should no better than to lash out like that, and should be able to hold some professionalism even when a opinion opposite if yours is expressed and not reduce to implying someone donates to pedophiles

[Mark G]

Since your a police officer you should no better than to lash out like that, and should be able to hold some professionalism even when a opinion opposite if yours is expressed and not reduce to implying someone donates to pedophiles

The man explained and apologized, sounds like I'd be way stressed too, I know, comes with the job, etc., but everyone's human. Cut him some slack.

[redneckranger]

He is still a representive of his Department on the internet out of uniform and in uniform. Most of the cops in Hampton Roads think they are "gods" among men. To insinuate someone is in NAMBLA is bs, and to think i have to protect my son from THOSE sick ***** to begin with. No this "cop" wants to joke

[LEADDRAFT]

First, Let Me say this, I respect LEO, as the Loss of this officer, to say the least, is Tragic, to His Family/Friends, Co-Workers that He worked with, My deepest Sympathies go out to them, that being said.

2 people brought up points I was trying to get across. Is there a "Double-Standard"?
Comparing this case to the Peyton Strickland fiasco, is a under-statement. I say this because LEO, MANY,MANY, times has said, or just has to say, I feared for My safety or for My life, or fellow officer's lives", and the "shooting" or killing, Maiming of the unfortunate "victim", (or their pets), is then Justified..
In the Peyton Strickland case, Deputy Long FIRED THOUGH A UN-LOCKED DOOR killing P.S. and His Dog Blaze, because He "thought" He heard gun fire, and/or feared for His safety..
Turn the tables, what if? P.S. fired though the door, thinking there were intruders? You can bet your bottom dollar, He would of been brought up on Murder charges also..

Now back to this case, was there enough "evidence" to warrant a "no-knock" warrant? Was there a "proper" investigation, and were Procedures followed? Or was the SWAT TEAM out for a field day training Mission? Hey, it's only a Lazy Loser pot-head right? The worst He can do is throw Twinkie's at them? (sry, a poor attempt at humor)..
Now, I think it's time for "more" of the Story...
http://hamptonroads.com/2008/05/testimony-ryan-frederick-case-elevates-doubts-about-fatal-chesapeake-raid

Testimony in Ryan Frederick case elevates doubts about fatal Chesapeake raid

Credit's The Virginian-Pilot
© May 29, 2008
TWO DETAILS, revealed during a preliminary hearing for the man charged with killing a Chesapeake police detective, were startling acknowledgments that police conducted a drug raid with only flimsy information that marijuana was being grown inside a Portlock home. The testimony by a colleague of Jarrod Shivers, who was fatally shot in the Jan. 17 incident, should concern city residents for these reasons:

Are police investigating sufficiently prior to raiding suspected dope houses? And would Chesapeake residents have acted any differently from the defendant, given the chaotic circumstances that night?

A substitute judge determined Tuesday that a grand jury should weigh first-degree murder and firearms charges against Ryan Frederick, 28. A misdemeanor marijuana possession charge, the reason for the raid, was dismissed. Frederick has said publicly that he fired shots from inside his home, thinking that an intruder was trying to enter. One shot struck and killed Shivers, 34, after police had used a battering ram on the front door.

Police were trying to rid the South Norfolk neighborhood of a potential menace. The police crew that went to Frederick's home, at 932 Redstart Ave., believed he was growing pot in the detached garage.

But the testimony by Detective Kiley Roberts, the sole witness at Tuesday's hearing and an officer on the scene that January night, is troublesome.

First, police placed huge stock in an unnamed "confidential informant," who gave details as early as November that Frederick was dealing drugs. There's no indication that information was supported independently. It's also unclear what motivated the informant to contact police; was the person trying to trade information on unrelated criminal charges? The department has said little about the individual.

Second, though police did surveillance at the home three or four times before the raid, Roberts testified on cross examination, they never noticed any unusual traffic to and from the house - which is sometimes an indication of drug activity. Police did a background check and found that Frederick had a job and no criminal history. And there's been no indication, in search warrants or testimony, that police used one of its own undercover officers to try to buy drugs from Frederick.

Given those facts, why did officers carry out the raid? An internal police probe has been completed, but that report will not be released, police said.

This is not to diminish Shivers' bravery on the night he died in the line of duty. And following the gunshots, Chesapeake police displayed enormous restraint by not rushing the house after one of their officers had been mortally wounded. (A separate .223 bullet casing, which did not come from Frederick's handgun, was recovered from the scene.)

But the tragedy has raised disquieting questions about the police methods of drug investigation; the tremendous show of force in what ultimately turned up a scant amount of marijuana; and why, given the circumstances, Frederick is being charged with first-degree murder instead of a lesser count, such as manslaughter.

The slaying of Detective Shivers appears to be a horrific anomaly. In 2007, Chesapeake police executed 50 narcotics warrants, leading to 72 arrests, numerous drugs recovered and weapons and property seized. Certainly, the department had conducted dozens of successful raids.

But one officer is dead, and one citizen faces a murder charge. This week's court proceeding suggests that, perhaps, police should never have raided that home on Redstart Avenue.
******************************
My comments are, WHY? Couldn't they arrest this fellow, or Detain Him at work,pull Him over on the way to or from work, or other Public Place while a warrant was served on His Home?
Instead of going in Battering down the front door of someones home, guns drawn, ready to shoot? Were seeing warrents served in the same manner reseverd for TERRORIST'S !!!!!!
WHY? WHY? WHY? NOT! Detain the "person of Interest", in a safer venue?
(The same has been said about the P.S. case)..
I gotta run, so I finish My post i a bit.
(Dr.'s Appointment)
LD

[BigBlueFord]

He is still a representive of his Department on the internet out of uniform and in uniform. Most of the cops in Hampton Roads think they are "gods" among men. To insinuate someone is in NAMBLA is bs, and to think i have to protect my son from THOSE sick ***** to begin with. No this "cop" wants to joke

I apologized to the person I was referring too. They accepted it, you need to get over it, it wasn't directed at you.

As far as me being a "represenative of my Department", you would have no idea what I did for a living if I didn't tell you. I dont represent anyone on here except myself and who I am, which has nothing to do with my occupation.

As far as you saying, Most of the cops in Hampton Roads think they are "gods" among men. Well I guess with your blanket statement covering of a group of people you probably know nothing about, you really are no different than me when you get fired up about something. Now are ya..? Funny thing when your'e human,,,you have human emotions, even if you are a policeman.

[RuddeDogg]

This needs to get put to bed.

[BigBlueFord]

This needs to get put to bed.

Agreed!! Lets talk fishin...

[J_Lannon]

This needs to get put to bed.

Ditto!

[wolfva]

Leaddraft, I already addressed the points you brought up. I'd suggest re-reading my comments.

[Southern Man]

With the facts I have seen presented here, if I were on that Jury, if it weren't a vote for acquittal, I would nullify the Jury.

In fact, if you have doubts about the fairness of a law, you have the right and obligation to find someone innocent even though they have actually broken the law! John Adams, our second president, had this to say about the juror: "It is not only his right but his duty...to find the verdict according to his own best understanding, judgment, and conscience, though in direct opposition to the direction of the court."

It was normal procedure in the early days of our country to inform juries of their right to judge the law and the defendant. And if the judge didn't tell them, the defense attorney very often would. The nation's Founders understood that trials by juries of ordinary citizens, fully informed of their powers as jurors, would confine the government to its proper role as the servant, not the master, of the people.

It was our Constitution that gave us the foundation that enables us to remain a democracy. The Constitution provides five separate tribunals with veto power Ñ representatives, senate, executive, judges and jury. Before a law gains the power to punish that law must first pass the test of each constitutionally guaranteed authority.

"Jury nullification of law", as it is sometimes called, is a traditional American right defended by the Founding Fathers. Those patriots intended that the jury serve as one of the tests a law must pass through before it assumes enough popular authority to be enforced. Our constitutional designers saw to it that each enactment of law must pass the scrutiny of these tribunals before it gains the authority to punish those who choose to violate any written law. Thomas Jefferson said, "I consider trial by jury as the only anchor yet imagined by man, by which a government can be held to the principles of its constitution."

Four decades before Jefferson spoke these words, a jury had established freedom of the press in the colonies by finding John Peter Zenger not guilty of seditious libel. He had been arrested and charged for printing critical but true news stories about the Governor of New York Colony. "Truth is no defense", the court told the jury! But the jury decided to reject bad law, and acquitted.

More on Jury Nullification here:
http://www.greenmac.com/eagle/ISSUES/ISSUE23-9/07JuryNullification.html

[Rockstar]

Plain and simple. RESPECT THE MEN AND WOMAN PROTECTING OUR FAMILIES!

[wolfva]

But Southernman, you haven't been presented with the facts at all here. What HAS been presented is propoganda from Frederick's supporters. The only facts we know from the Police side is:
1)they had information that he was growing pot
2)they had a warrant to enter his house.

The Police aren't going to discuss the matter as it is under investigation. Fredericks' lawyer on the other hand...he is free to 'try the case' in the 'court of public opinion'. And since he is a highly biased source.... Let us remember, it is his JOB to do whatever he can to get Fredericks off. Let's also remember...when entering into a court room everyone testifying swears to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. EXCEPT: the lawyers. They do NOT get sworn in.

[Lipyourown]

The fact is: there is a lawyer for both sides and they are not the ones on trial. Both lawyers are free to speak to the media. They both take an oath, it is a prerequisite of the thier job.

The fact is the police had false information, which makes the warrant bogus. That false information was from a mistake or a lie. Take your pick.

It's a very tragic case but the guy should walk.

[JeepMike]

Agreed!! Lets talk fishin...

^^^^^^^^^^ :D:beer:

[Malakas07]

War on Marijuana.........STUPID.

I know a lot of respectable people who smoke on a daily basis. I even know 1 Police officer and 1 Dentist who's been practicing for several years.
If you believe the hype on MJ then your an idiot. Legalize it, Tax it and enjoy the profits. True drug dealers will move on to selling something else.

I respect the Officers who have lost their lives in the line of duty and my best goes out to their families.
This particular officer and others who have lost their lives over MJ raids are ridiculous and a result of bad policy......... (Prohibition 1920 - 1933?)

More focus could've have been put towards busting Meth labs or people moving that Arm and Hammer.

Just like said in previous post.

I've seen drunks break a Foosball table ( because he lost), one put his head through a window ( because a girl called him Fat) and a carful run over 3 bushes.
I've seen potheads demolish a bag of Dorito's, Lay's Original's and a box of Pop-Tarts.

Pothead > Drunk anyday of the week.


Speaking of fishing. Some pretty holes way way south of the LIP.
:D

[Southern Man]

War on Marijuana.........STUPID.

I know a lot of respectable people who smoke on a daily basis. I even know 1 Police officer and 1 Dentist who's been practicing for several years.
If you believe the hype on MJ then your an idiot. Legalize it, Tax it and enjoy the profits. True drug dealers will move on to selling something else.

I respect the Officers who have lost their lives in the line of duty and my best goes out to their families.
This particular officer and others who have lost their lives over MJ raids are ridiculous and a result of bad policy......... (Prohibition 1920 - 1933?)

More focus could've have been put towards busting Meth labs or people moving that Arm and Hammer.

Just like said in previous post.

I've seen drunks break a Foosball table ( because he lost), one put his head through a window ( because a girl called him Fat) and a carful run over 3 bushes.
I've seen potheads demolish a bag of Dorito's, Lay's Original's and a box of Pop-Tarts.

Pothead > Drunk anyday of the week.


Speaking of fishing. Some pretty holes way way south of the LIP.
:D
Agree Marijuana should be as illegal as a tomato or a cucumber. Anything that grows naturally from the earth, and can be used in its natural form, without being processed, is a sin against nature to make it illegal. It ought to be against the law to make it against the law.
I guess thats the little bit of Native American in me speaking.
I know when my Daughter was coming up I prayed she would be dating a guy smoking Marijuana, as compared to drinking. Rather neither but if I had a choice.
No I don't smoke Marijuana haven't since 1995.
LOL the older you get the stupider it makes you. ;)

[JeepMike]

War on Marijuana.........STUPID.

I know a lot of respectable people who smoke on a daily basis. I even know 1 Police officer and 1 Dentist who's been practicing for several years.
If you believe the hype on MJ then your an idiot. Legalize it, Tax it and enjoy the profits. True drug dealers will move on to selling something else.

I respect the Officers who have lost their lives in the line of duty and my best goes out to their families.
This particular officer and others who have lost their lives over MJ raids are ridiculous and a result of bad policy......... (Prohibition 1920 - 1933?)

More focus could've have been put towards busting Meth labs or people moving that Arm and Hammer.

Just like said in previous post.

I've seen drunks break a Foosball table ( because he lost), one put his head through a window ( because a girl called him Fat) and a carful run over 3 bushes.
I've seen potheads demolish a bag of Dorito's, Lay's Original's and a box of Pop-Tarts.

Pothead > Drunk anyday of the week.


Speaking of fishing. Some pretty holes way way south of the LIP.
:D


Smoking pot is for losers. It is a known gateway drug. I'm sure it has it's benefits, the same way morphine, cocaine, acid, heroin, and others have benefits. Again, I have YET to meet a person I consider succesfull that smokes pot and/or uses drugs on a regular basis.

I am not talking about the college kid experimenting with a bong down the hall... I am talking about these people that believe smoking pot is a harmless drug and the only thing that happens as a result is a "bag of doritos get demolished" or whatever it was. MJ is a gateway drug that fries brains and leads to other hardcore drug usage time and time again. It is also ILLEGAL, and if you like to smoke dope so much, there is always the option of going to a place that makes it legal.

[TreednNC]

Jeep Mike....I dont like it, never tried it, and dont care for users in general, although I have met some nice individual users that have done great for themselves and are VERY VERY VERY smart.....but it's still illegal regardless.....but you and I both know one guy that uses it that 99% of the people that know him and meet him like. Lets just say he lives a lot closer to you than he does I. Great guy, helluva fisherman and Im sure youve met him and think the same. ;)

[JeepMike]

Jeep Mike....I dont like it, never tried it, and dont care for users in general, although I have met some nice individual users that have done great for themselves and are VERY VERY VERY smart.....but it's still illegal regardless.....but you and I both know one guy that uses it that 99% of the people that know him and meet him like. Lets just say he lives a lot closer to you than he does I. Great guy, helluva fisherman and Im sure youve met him and think the same. ;)

There are exceptions to everything, even with drug users I guess. I still don't agree with it at all.

[Malakas07]

Smoking pot is for losers. It is a known gateway drug. Again, I have YET to meet a person I consider successful that smokes pot and/or uses drugs on a regular basis.

Please do some good hardcore research before you start making claims. There are plenty of pot smokers (past&present) who smoke on a regular basis that are successful whether it be through money, possessions or family.


It is also ILLEGAL, and if you like to smoke dope so much, there is always the option of going to a place that makes it legal.

and no where did I state that I like to smoke dope. I just feel that the Government has no right to repress our individual freedoms as long as it does not effect others or others property.

[Cdog]

Smoking pot is for losers. It is a known gateway drug.
I don't get this, so everyone that ever smoked one joint suddenly runs and starts shooting coke?Think someone has watched Reefer Madness a few too many times.

You want to know the real gateway drug?

Alcohol. Plain and simple.

[jcreamer]

Not one person on this board knows exactly what happened during those moments when the shot was fired that killed that police officer.

Why dont we all wait until all the facts come out before we start talking excessive force, and other scenarios.
One of the best ideas so far. Before I make a decision I would like to hear both sides of the story and not from the media.

JC

[RuddeDogg]

Not one person on this board knows exactly what happened during those moments when the shot was fired that killed that police officer.

Why dont we all wait until all the facts come out before we start talking excessive force, and other scenarios.

yep, now can we PLEASE put this to bed.

[JeepMike]

I don't get this, so everyone that ever smoked one joint suddenly runs and starts shooting coke?Think someone has watched Reefer Madness a few too many times.

You want to know the real gateway drug?

Alcohol. Plain and simple.

I agree with you Cdog about alcohol. It is directly related to more than half of all violent crimes, responsible for many accidents, and abused more than probably any other drug in the country. However, it is legal in this country. Pot is not. I don't wish to seem radical and competely brainwashed by a D.A.R.E. program, but plain and simple... I have never seen pot do anything except bring pain, idleness, trouble with law enforcement, and a general negative connotation to ones character.

I apologize if it seemed as though I accused Malakas personally of smoking pot, I was using "you" to address any/all readers.

[Newsjeff]

Edit.

[SGT.Bunghole]

I agree with you Cdog about alcohol. It is directly related to more than half of all violent crimes, responsible for many accidents, and abused more than probably any other drug in the country. However, it is legal in this country. Pot is not. I don't wish to seem radical and competely brainwashed by a D.A.R.E. program, but plain and simple... I have never seen pot do anything except bring pain, idleness, trouble with law enforcement, and a general negative connotation to ones character.

I apologize if it seemed as though I accused Malakas personally of smoking pot, I was using "you" to address any/all readers.

So you have never seen or heard of anything positive from marijuana or at least hemp?

http://www.hempmuseum.org/SUBROOMS/HEMP%20HISTORY%20EARLY%20U.S..htm

Our american history revolved around the use of it. Of course hemp is still illegal altho you couldnt get high from it. I guess anyone that would want to utilize it for what it can do would just be a loser.

You know what i have never seen do anything good? Tobacco, but i wouldnt call someone a loser for smoking a cigarette. Thats just plain rude.

The first American Flags were made from Hemp!