My Reply to GM!

[sprtsracer]

I just couldn't resist!!!

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 09:36:59 -0500
From: GM_Program_HQ@email.generalmotors.bfi0.com
Subject: An urgent message to GM owners
To: sprtsracer@hotmail.com





Dear Larry Morgan,

You made the right choice when you put your confidence in General Motors, and we appreciate your past support. I want to assure you that we are making our best vehicles ever, and we have exciting plans for the future. But we need your help now. Simply put, we need you to join us to let Congress know that a bridge loan to help U.S. automakers also helps strengthen the U.S. economy and preserve millions of American jobs.

Despite what you may be hearing, we are not asking Congress for a bailout but rather a loan that will be repaid.

The U.S. economy is at a crossroads due to the worldwide credit crisis, and all Americans are feeling the effects of the worst economic downturn in 75 years. Despite our successful efforts to restructure, reduce costs and enhance liquidity, U.S. auto sales rely on access to credit, which is all but frozen through traditional channels.

The consequences of the domestic auto industry collapsing would far exceed the $25 billion loan needed to bridge the current crisis. According to a recent study by the Center for Automotive Research:

• One in 10 American jobs depends on U.S. automakers
• Nearly 3 million jobs are at immediate risk
• U.S. personal income could be reduced by $150 billion
• The tax revenue lost over 3 years would be more than $156 billion

Discussions are now underway in Washington, D.C., concerning loans to support U.S. carmakers. I am asking for your support in this vital effort by contacting your state representatives.

Please take a few minutes to go to www.gmfactsandfiction.com, where we have made it easy for you to contact your U.S. senators and representatives. Just click on the "I'm a Concerned American" link under the "Mobilize Now" section, and enter your name and ZIP code to send a personalized e-mail stating your support for the U.S. automotive industry.

Let me assure you that General Motors has made dramatic improvements over the last 10 years. In fact, we are leading the industry with award-winning vehicles like the Chevrolet Malibu, Cadillac CTS, Buick Enclave, Pontiac G8, GMC Acadia, Chevy Tahoe Hybrid, Saturn AURA and more. We offer 18 models with an EPA estimated 30 MPG highway or better — more than Toyota or Honda. GM has 6 hybrids in market and 3 more by mid-2009. GM has closed the quality gap with the imports, and today we are putting our best quality vehicles on the road.

Please share this information with friends and family using the link on the site.

Thank you for helping keep our economy viable.

Sincerely,



Troy Clarke




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The marks of General Motors, its divisions, slogans, emblems, vehicle model names, vehicle body designs and other marks appearing in this email are the trademarks and/or service marks of General Motors Corporation, its subsidiaries, affiliates or licensors. ©2008 GM Corp. Buckle up, America!

General Motors Corporation
100 Renaissance Center
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From: Larry Morgan (sprtsracer@hotmail.com)
Sent: Tue 11/18/08 12:16 PM
To: gm_program_hq.w0th05300887fd97d2cff290c96160@email.generalmotors.bfi0.com


Dear Mr. Clarke;

Thank you so much for your submission of a request for a "loan" from the American Taxpayers! We are here to serve you and will take it under consideration. However, we need some additional information (you know...the same information YOU required when we filled out the GMAC credit application at the local GM Dealership!) First of all, we will need to see your "business plan", your "profit and loss" statement, the total value of all your assets, how you plan to market your product, the average profit margin on each product, ALL current debts, total expenditures per year, including salaries broken down by management, workers, consultents, etc., total monies paid out in benefits per year for workers, as well as monies paid out for warranty service per year. In addition, we will need at least three references, as well as any checking and savings account numbers and the names of any banks you do business with. Furthermore, we need to know what you expect to put down as a downpayment and any collateral you may have!

Once we, the American Taxpayer, have this information, I assure you we will take it into consideration. In the meantime, should your loan not be approved, may I suggest Chapter 11 Bankruptcy?

Sincerely,
Larry J. Morgan
American Taxpayer

[dirtyhandslopez]

:):):):):):):)
Well funny
What was their response to that?

[Fishing_Feud]

LOL Nice Post.:D

Personally I am tired of all the bailouts for the big guys. If the automakers ran their businesses properly they would not be in this mess. It is completly due to the Unions. If they do not get rid of Union labor nothing will change for them. The best thing that could happen to them is filing chapter 11. That would enable them to get rid of the Union crap. This is just my opinion of course:D

[RuddeDogg]

Great post.

[Mooney1el]

I just couldn't resist!!!

---------SNIP--------
From: Larry Morgan (sprtsracer@hotmail.com)
Sent: Tue 11/18/08 12:16 PM
To: gm_program_hq.w0th05300887fd97d2cff290c96160@email.generalmotors.bfi0.com


Dear Mr. Clarke;

Thank you so much for your submission of a request for a "loan" from the American Taxpayers! We are here to serve you and will take it under consideration. However, we need some additional information (you know...the same information YOU required when we filled out the GMAC credit application at the local GM Dealership!) First of all, we will need to see your "business plan", your "profit and loss" statement, the total value of all your assets, how you plan to market your product, the average profit margin on each product, ALL current debts, total expenditures per year, including salaries broken down by management, workers, consultents, etc., total monies paid out in benefits per year for workers, as well as monies paid out for warranty service per year. In addition, we will need at least three references, as well as any checking and savings account numbers and the names of any banks you do business with. Furthermore, we need to know what you expect to put down as a downpayment and any collateral you may have!

Once we, the American Taxpayer, have this information, I assure you we will take it into consideration. In the meantime, should your loan not be approved, may I suggest Chapter 11 Bankruptcy?

Sincerely,
Larry J. Morgan
American Taxpayer

While "cute", Larry's email fails to recognize that all that information is readily available in the Stockholders Annual Report; http://www.gm.com/corporate/investor_information/stockholder_info/.

But remember, it is complied by the best accountants that money can buy :)


Richard Gray

[AL_N_VB]

Too funny. All these bail outs...and a War to fund? I know Thanksgiving is right around the corner...who's gonna feed all the families that have lost their jobs and homes due to this recession?

The big 3 jus gotta tighten their belts.

[sprtsracer]

While "cute", Larry's email fails to recognize that all that information is readily available in the Stockholders Annual Report; http://www.gm.com/corporate/investor_information/stockholder_info/.

But remember, it is complied by the best accountants that money can buy :)


Richard Gray

True...and so is the information they request from us readily available on our credit reports that they are going to pull anyway. Besides, we have already seen how "Annual Statements" can be falsified by "Freddie Mac" and "Fannie Mae". The info on the "Annual Report" can be up to a year old as well. The current "Financial Statement" available is current as of Dec 31, 2007, almost 11 months old! Further, here is a "disclaimer" listed in their "Annual Report":

"Investigations

As previously reported, we are cooperating with federal governmental agencies in connection with a number of investigations.

The SEC has issued subpoenas and information requests to us in connection with various matters including restatements of our previously disclosed financial statements in connection with our accounting for certain foreign exchange contracts and commodities contracts, our financial reporting concerning pension and OPEB, certain transactions between us and Delphi, supplier price reductions or credits and any obligation we may have to fund pension and OPEB costs in connection with Delphi’s proceedings under Chapter 11 of the Bankruptcy Code. In addition, the SEC has issued a subpoena in connection with an investigation of our transactions in precious metal raw materials used in our automotive manufacturing operation.

We have produced documents and provided testimony in response to the subpoenas and will continue to cooperate with respect to these matters. A negative outcome of one or more of these investigations could require us to restate prior financial results, pay fines or penalties or satisfy other remedies under various provisions of the U.S. securities laws, and any of these outcomes could under certain circumstances have a material adverse effect on our business."

In addition, here is another "telling statement" from their "Annual Report""

"Disclosure Controls and Procedures

We maintain disclosure controls and procedures designed to provide reasonable assurance that information required to be disclosed in reports filed under the Securities Exchange Act of 1934, as amended (Exchange Act) is recorded, processed, summarized and reported within the specified time periods and accumulated and communicated to our management, including our principal executive officer and principal financial officer, as appropriate to allow timely decisions regarding required disclosure.

Our management, with the participation of our Chairman and Chief Executive Officer (CEO) and our Vice Chairman and Chief Financial Officer (CFO), evaluated the effectiveness of our disclosure controls and procedures (as defined in Rules 13a15(e) or 15d15(e) promulgated under the Exchange Act) as of December 31, 2007. Based on that evaluation, our CEO and CFO concluded that, as of that date, our disclosure controls and procedures required by paragraph (b) of Rules 13a15 or 15d15 were not effective at the reasonable assurance level because of the identification of material weaknesses in our internal control over financial reporting, which we view as an integral part of our disclosure controls and procedures.

Now, if one wants to read through it, one can readily see, based on the information in their YE 2007 report, that they are not good candidates for a loan from the American Taxpayer.

With all that being said, you missed the point of my reply, which was to totally ridicule these idiots for even thinking we should or would bail them out.

[ffemtreed]

Screw the bailout, if people want to buy an automobile there will be a company that is willing to sell automobiles.

Sure these people might initially be out of a job, but sooner rather than later there is going to another company that is going to start up and hire people to make and sell these automobiles to the public.

Bailing out the big boys just reinforced bad behavior practices. But all those politicians need to find a way to repay these big companies who funded all their campaigns.

[sprtsracer]

Screw the bailout, if people want to buy an automobile there will be a company that is willing to sell automobiles.

Sure these people might initially be out of a job, but sooner rather than later there is going to another company that is going to start up and hire people to make and sell these automobiles to the public.

Bailing out the big boys just reinforced bad behavior practices. But all those politicians need to find a way to repay these big companies who funded all their campaigns.


Yup!!! My best advice is to go to www.senate.gov and www.house.gov and call/email/write your Senators and Congressmen and let them know your displeasure. I sent a copy of my email to GM to both my Senators (Mica and Nelson) and my current Rep (Tom Feeney...no jokes please...he was voted out next term.). If they receive enough public outcry, this will be voted down...and make sure they know you are watching their votes!

[Mooney1el]

True...and so is the information they request from us readily available on our credit reports that they are going to pull anyway. Besides, we have already seen how "Annual Statements" can be falsified by "Freddie Mac" and "Fannie Mae". The info on the "Annual Report" can be up to a year old as well. The current "Financial Statement" available is current as of Dec 31, 2007, almost 11 months old! Further, here is a "disclaimer" listed in their "Annual Report":

"Investigations

As previously reported, we are cooperating with federal governmental agencies in connection with a number of investigations.

The SEC has issued subpoenas and information requests to us in connection with various matters including restatements of our previously disclosed financial statements in connection with our accounting for certain foreign exchange contracts and commodities contracts, our financial reporting concerning pension and OPEB, certain transactions between us and Delphi, supplier price reductions or credits and any obligation we may have to fund pension and OPEB costs in connection with Delphi’s proceedings under Chapter 11 of the Bankruptcy Code. In addition, the SEC has issued a subpoena in connection with an investigation of our transactions in precious metal raw materials used in our automotive manufacturing operation.

We have produced documents and provided testimony in response to the subpoenas and will continue to cooperate with respect to these matters. A negative outcome of one or more of these investigations could require us to restate prior financial results, pay fines or penalties or satisfy other remedies under various provisions of the U.S. securities laws, and any of these outcomes could under certain circumstances have a material adverse effect on our business."

In addition, here is another "telling statement" from their "Annual Report""

"Disclosure Controls and Procedures

We maintain disclosure controls and procedures designed to provide reasonable assurance that information required to be disclosed in reports filed under the Securities Exchange Act of 1934, as amended (Exchange Act) is recorded, processed, summarized and reported within the specified time periods and accumulated and communicated to our management, including our principal executive officer and principal financial officer, as appropriate to allow timely decisions regarding required disclosure.

Our management, with the participation of our Chairman and Chief Executive Officer (CEO) and our Vice Chairman and Chief Financial Officer (CFO), evaluated the effectiveness of our disclosure controls and procedures (as defined in Rules 13a15(e) or 15d15(e) promulgated under the Exchange Act) as of December 31, 2007. Based on that evaluation, our CEO and CFO concluded that, as of that date, our disclosure controls and procedures required by paragraph (b) of Rules 13a15 or 15d15 were not effective at the reasonable assurance level because of the identification of material weaknesses in our internal control over financial reporting, which we view as an integral part of our disclosure controls and procedures.

Now, if one wants to read through it, one can readily see, based on the information in their YE 2007 report, that they are not good candidates for a loan from the American Taxpayer.

With all that being said, you missed the point of my reply, which was to totally ridicule these idiots for even thinking we should or would bail them out.


And you missed my point. I said that the Annual Report was prepared by the best accountants that money can buy with a smilie emoticon. Perhaps a bit too subtle, but these financial statements reflect only what the accountants want you to know and the verbage is carefully constructed. If one reads the 2007 Annual Report, one would think that GM was in perfect position for any contingency in the automotive market. The words are there to attract current and potential investors. In retrospect we all are painfully aware that GM was not in perfect position.

This is no different than the statements of the "Wall Street" firms that apparently the public had no problem "bailing out". I fail to see the difference, except that bailing out Wall Street supports the fat cats while giving the auto industry a shot helps the blue collar workers.

For information about the auto industry and it's request, please take the time to examine http://gmfactsandfiction.com

[sprtsracer]

And you missed my point. I said that the Annual Report was prepared by the best accountants that money can buy with a smilie emoticon. Perhaps a bit too subtle, but these financial statements reflect only what the accountants want you to know and the verbage is carefully constructed. If one reads the 2007 Annual Report, one would think that GM was in perfect position for any contingency in the automotive market. The words are there to attract current and potential investors. In retrospect we all are painfully aware that GM was not in perfect position.

This is no different than the statements of the "Wall Street" firms that apparently the public had no problem "bailing out". I fail to see the difference, except that bailing out Wall Street supports the fat cats while giving the auto industry a shot helps the blue collar workers.

For information about the auto industry and it's request, please take the time to examine http://gmfactsandfiction.com

No, I didn't miss your point. In fact, some of the things I quoted supported what you said. As far as there being "no difference"...two wrongs don't make a right! I was opposed to the "Wall Street Bailout" and I'm opposed to this one as well. The line has to be drawn somewhere, or else we'll be continuously shelling out money to failed businesses. Trust me...I've done plenty of research on the auto industry's request for a taxpayer "loan" and I've made my Congressmen aware of it. In addition, I sat through the hearings today and listened to the three "beggars" stammer through their request. Enough is enough. None of the "Big Three" would DARE loan us money for a new car if our financial situation was even remotely close to theirs. We'd be laughed out of the dealership. How about all the Real Estate Firms??? ERA, Better Homes and Gardens, Coldwell Banker, Prudential??? Why not a few billion for them as well? Next comes the oil companies...the price of a barrel of oil is creeping down and is projected to hit near $40. They may need help as well. How about the chain restaurants? Think of how many would be put out of work if they fail. People are eating out less and traveling less, so they may need some loans also. We can't let McDonalds, Denny's, I-Hop, Red Lobster, Bob Evans, Burger King, Long John Silvers, The Cracker Barrel, or any similar firms go under! Then, there's the airlines!!! I don't even want to go there. Who's next? Line up here and get your loan from the taxpayers! Free Money!!! Step right up! Has your business failed because you didn't follow sound business practices? Not to worry! Those hard working folks who are successful in business and did what was necessary, as well as the rest of the hard working folks and those on a fixed income, will be more than happy to pay their taxes and overlook your shortcomings to save you from your own greed and stupidity! Enough is enough. It's time they used the tools that are already available, the first being reorganization under Chapter 11!

[wolfva]

Btw, do ya'll know how the CEOs of the big 3 got to DC to address Congress? They went in a private luxery jet.
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/WallStreet/story?id=6285739&page=1

If these companies REALLY need help, then the FIRST thing they should do is cut their upper management salaries 90%. I bet they'd be in the black in no time.

[J_Lannon]

I would much rather see them file for chapter 11. Screw the Govt and thier hand outs.

Kick out the UAW and make cars that people want, instead of having the Govt. and thier Sierra club idiots dictate thier future.

Its not totally the auto makers fault...... Goverment interference, unfair foreign trade laws, lazy union workers have had a large part in this.

I'd much rather drive a GMC Sierra than some Japanese car ...........any day!

[Pennman]

I would much rather see them file for chapter 11. Screw the Govt and thier hand outs.

Kick out the UAW and make cars that people want, instead of having the Govt. and thier Sierra club idiots dictate thier future.

Its not totally the auto makers fault...... Goverment interference, unfair foreign trade laws, lazy union workers have had a large part in this.

I'd much rather drive a GMC Sierra than some Japanese car ...........any day!


If the government is serious about helping the American auto industry, perhaps some consideration should be given to reducing, or eliminating, the sales tax on American automobiles for a period of time, thus encouraging buyers to buy American autos.
B...b... wait, that would mean the government wouldn't have as much money in it's coffers to buy future votes via the "feel good" programs it currently funds.:rolleyes:

[Mooney1el]

sprtsracer - Well, I think we are on the same side here for the most part since before the $700B bailout package passed I was on the phone to my Congressmen as well as writing my displeasure to them through both email and snail mail. Even after the passage, I expressed my disbelief that they felt it was money well spent. Now, however, that money has been approved. Since you did the research, you know auto companies are trying to get a piece of that pie, not more of taxpayers $$, so it doesn't fit with "enough is enough"; it is already "approved money". Congress gave Paulson a blank check, the BigThree were trying to get their name on a part of that check. They were not asking for an AIG type bailout which is outside of the $700B.
You think that Chapter11 is the proper way to go, why didn't "Wall Street" take the Chapter11 road? Nobody even spoke about that. Was that not the right course for them too? Was anybody calling for the heads of the managers of the failing wall street firms or the banks who made the bad decisions? No, in fact, they put one of their own as responsible for guiding and spending the $$ (I call him "Cash-N-Carry" but you may not be old enough to remember that aspect of retail capitalism. I guess I see it as the auto industry trying to get the most bang for the buck that the taxpayers are already paying for and helping the blue collar workers with jobs is just as viable as helping "fat cats".
We can speak for hours on re-negociated contracts with the UAW and the personal damage to the retirees that a Chapter 11 filing will do. We can talk of all the mistakes made by the BigThree and the UAW through the years, but it doesn't change the current situation. And the fact is, a lot of people, people like you and me, some who have put their faith and fate in the hands of others will be painfully effected by the failing of any one of the BigThree.

I should make sure you understand that I do not support the UAW, their tactics and beliefs at all. I spent way too many years working for GM (Engineering) and have seen the experienced pathetic actions by some represented employees. I have also seen passion and enthusiasm by some represented employees. Both sides. The bad has always outweighed the good though. For me, the UAW had outlived its usefullness many, many years ago :(

Also, I was beside myself to learn that the CEO's took their private jets to the begging fiasco (wonder which one Gettlefinger rode on?). Their sensitivity to the situation is abysmal, but it doesn't change the situation. I have met Rick Waggoner on several occasions and his ego always got to the meeting before him.....

[sprtsracer]

What I tried to tell them!

1. Sell your Private Jets!

2. Take a pay cut!

3. Make fuel efficient cars. Ditch the SUV's unless they are hybrids, and stop charging sticker price for hybrids simply because they demand a premium. Very few want to purchase a damn SUV or truck anymore with a V8 that eats gas! Don't believe me? Look at your own used car inventory!

4. Offer a better warranty and HONOR IT!

5. Renegotiate your union contracts. (Do you want to continue to work or do you want the company to go bankrupt so that you may loose your job? Do you want to retire, or do you want to loose your pension all together? Do you want to keep your health care benefits, or do you want to go on Medicaid?

6. Lower your interest rates in your financing arms on new cars (i.e. Ford Motor Credit, GMAC, Chrysler Credit)

7. Get out of the Real Estate business! (I.e....GMAC...STOP Financing mortgages!)

8. Limit the number of your dealerships and consolidate your operations! Stop having Pontiac/Cadillac/Chevrolet/Saturn/GMC/Buick dealerships spread all over the country!!! No separate Ford/Lincoln/Mazda, etc. dealers. No separate Chrysler/Dodge dealers.

9. If you want to make a "World Car"...knock off the overseas brands of Opel, Vauxhall, English Ford/German Ford, etc, and make ONE CAR and ONE BRAND that will suffice in ALL countries!

10. SUCK IT UP! Times are tough. Get with it and recognize that fact. Forget your luxury life-style, corporate bennies, golden parachutes, executive bonuses, corporate dining rooms, plush parties, cocktail get-togethers, private jet travel, etc. If you are not willing to do that...then resign your position and get in the unemployment line with the rest of the Americans, pay for your own damn health care like the rest, give up your stock options, and collect unemployment!

11. File for Chapter 11 Bankruptcy like the rest of us "patsies" have to do if we screw up like you did!!!

12. Stop spreading your operations all around the country! Consolidate your operations! While it may be a good idea to take advantage of those tax incentives from the different states, did you ever think that maybe you owed your workers in Detroit? Why not manufacture everything there? Why build an engine plant in one state and then ship the engines to another state for assembly into the finished product, while closing down plants where the original assembly was located? And THEN, you complain about having to pay RENT on vacant plants, lay off personnel, and cite that as one of the reasons you need a bailout! Bull crap! Why do I reach INDIA when I call your customer service department? What's your unemployment payment per month now?

13. Why have you moved operations to other countries? Why do you have plants in Canada, Mexico, Europe, Japan, Korea, etc., and then have the balls to ask the American Taxpayer for a bailout? Ever think about asking Canada, Mexico, Europe, Japan and/or Korea for a bailout??? Make your product HERE and EXPORT! It would do WONDERS for our economy, or are you afraid you may actually have to COMPETE? That term may be foreign to you, but actually, it's one of the main principals of a free market!

14. Here is GM's "Executive Severance Policy":

Executive Officer Severance Policy

...On the rare occasion when an executive officer is removed, the board exercises its business judgment in approving an appropriate separation arrangement, if any, in light of all relevant circumstances including, but not limited to, the individual's term of employment, past contributions and
accomplishments, and reasons for separation from the company. The board, for example, might give particular consideration to a highly successful, long-serving executive who elected to separate for health or similarly compelling personal reasons.

However, if the board were to agree to pay future severance benefits to any of the executive officers, GM would seek stockholder approval of any such benefits if: (i) the executive's employment was terminated prior to retirement; and (ii) the present value of the proposed severance benefits would exceed 2.99 times the sum of the executive's base salary and target bonus. For this purpose, severance benefits would not include:

Payments based on accrued qualified and non-qualified deferred compensation plans, including retirement and savings benefits;

Payments of salary, bonus, or performance award amounts that had accrued at the time of termination;�� Any benefits paid under any long-term incentive plans in which other employees participate;

Any retiree health, life, or other welfare benefit, including any legally-required benefit made pursuant to programs generally available to all GM employees;

Amounts paid as part of any employment agreement intended to “make-whole” any forfeiture of benefits from a prior employer; and

Any payment that a committee consisting solely of independent directors determines in good faith, after consulting with counsel selected by such committee, to be a reasonable settlement of any claim made against the Corporation. Due to timing constraints or other reasons, a committee consisting solely of independent directors may determine that it would be in the best interests of stockholders to enter into a severance agreement with an executive officer in which the present value of the proposed severance benefits would exceed 2.99 times the sum of the executive's base salary and target bonus before obtaining stockholder approval. In this situation, the Board may seek approval after the material terms have been agreed upon but the payment of any severance benefits in excess of the foregoing limits will be contingent upon stockholder approval of the severance agreement. This policy shall take effect upon adoption and apply only to severance agreements adopted, amended, or extended after that date. It is not intended that the application of this policy shall modify or alter the tax deductibility of any payment or benefit paid or excluded hereunder. Notwithstanding any provision of this policy, no plan elections, modifications or distributions will be allowed or implemented if they would cause an otherwise eligible plan participant to be subject to tax (including interest and penalties) under Internal Revenue Code Section 409A. Consistent with GM’s compensation philosophy and practice, the Board of Directors retains the right to amend or modify this policy as needed.

I challenge the CEO of GM, FORD and CHRYSLER with similar provisions to RENOUNCE these provisions and agree to step down with NO additional compensation, severance pay, benefits, etc. if asked or demanded as a result of taking a loan from the taxpayers. In other words...just go away!

Do me and many others a BIG favor and go home to your plush house tonight and re-access your situation and that of your company. While you are asking us to make sacrifices, ask yourselves what sacrifices YOU have made. Look deep inside yourself, and then go look at yourself in the mirror. If you are PROUD of yourself, then you need some work. If not, then maybe you are human like the rest of us and you'll make some changes and stop begging from people who can't afford your excesses!

NOW...if you want to hear some funny CRAP... I attempted to call GM Headquarters. The lady there explained that she was in the "Executive Offices". I asked her if she was an "executive", and she told me she was an "Executive Assistant" (Read "Secretary"). I asked for Rick Waggoner (Chairman and CEO of GM) and she told me he was not receiving calls and asked me the nature of my call. I explained that he had applied to me for a loan. She assured me that she would "take my information" and enter it into the "appropriate channels". I asked her if someone would actually read it, and she said they would, but couldn't tell me WHO would read it! She stated that she was there to address customer concerns, but could give me no names, telephone numbers, email addresses, or anything else concerning GM Executives, so that I may contact them with suggestions or concerns. Enough said! GM doesn't give a shit!

I then contacted Ford. At least I was able to reach their corporate headquarters without having to go through the msn yellow pages! I asked for Alan Mulally. After she asked me who he was and I explained his position to her, she finally understood. To Fords benefit, the operator explained that he was still in Washington, DC, and provided me with some info. This poor lady was also concerned about her job, and was very cooperative. Although she told me that she did not have Mr. Mulally's email, she at least assured me the info would get to him. If that is true, it remains to be seen.

NOW...comes Chrysler! I went to their website and called the number listed. I reached INDIA and spoke with "Sam"! Sam had no numbers, nor did he have any email addresses. He did transfer me to another number that was supposedly for Chrysler in Michigan. The lady answered the phone, and the first thing I asked was her location. I found out she was located in UTAH! She also had no numbers, nor did she have any email addresses. I could find no numbers for Chrysler's Headquarters in Michigan. She could only refer me back to the website...which is where I started in the first place!!!

Let me also say that when I called, I specifically asked for the three CEO's by name. Only the lady at GM knew who Rick Waggoner was. As far as Ford (Alan Mulally) and Chrysler (Robert Nardelli) they asked me if they were employees and what department they worked in. I knew it was a lost cause at that point! Now...given the above...with an application for a loan in front of you with this info, would you approve it???

I spent about 5 hours trying to get info from these jerks to no avail. I expected nothing less, but I had to do it so I could at least speak from experience. Take it for what it's worth! At least I tried.

[sprtsracer]

sprtsracer - Well, I think we are on the same side here for the most part since before the $700B bailout package passed I was on the phone to my Congressmen as well as writing my displeasure to them through both email and snail mail. Even after the passage, I expressed my disbelief that they felt it was money well spent. Now, however, that money has been approved. Since you did the research, you know auto companies are trying to get a piece of that pie, not more of taxpayers $$, so it doesn't fit with "enough is enough"; it is already "approved money". Congress gave Paulson a blank check, the BigThree were trying to get their name on a part of that check. They were not asking for an AIG type bailout which is outside of the $700B.
You think that Chapter11 is the proper way to go, why didn't "Wall Street" take the Chapter11 road? Nobody even spoke about that. Was that not the right course for them too? Was anybody calling for the heads of the managers of the failing wall street firms or the banks who made the bad decisions? No, in fact, they put one of their own as responsible for guiding and spending the $$ (I call him "Cash-N-Carry" but you may not be old enough to remember that aspect of retail capitalism. I guess I see it as the auto industry trying to get the most bang for the buck that the taxpayers are already paying for and helping the blue collar workers with jobs is just as viable as helping "fat cats".
We can speak for hours on re-negociated contracts with the UAW and the personal damage to the retirees that a Chapter 11 filing will do. We can talk of all the mistakes made by the BigThree and the UAW through the years, but it doesn't change the current situation. And the fact is, a lot of people, people like you and me, some who have put their faith and fate in the hands of others will be painfully effected by the failing of any one of the BigThree.

I should make sure you understand that I do not support the UAW, their tactics and beliefs at all. I spent way too many years working for GM (Engineering) and have seen the experienced pathetic actions by some represented employees. I have also seen passion and enthusiasm by some represented employees. Both sides. The bad has always outweighed the good though. For me, the UAW had outlived its usefullness many, many years ago :(

Also, I was beside myself to learn that the CEO's took their private jets to the begging fiasco (wonder which one Gettlefinger rode on?). Their sensitivity to the situation is abysmal, but it doesn't change the situation. I have met Rick Waggoner on several occasions and his ego always got to the meeting before him.....


Yes...we are apparently on the same side, with one exception. Even though most feel that the auto "bailout" is a part of the original amount, how long before they want that amount increased? I didn't want the original amount approved in the first place, and now there are more lining up! If the auto industry wasn't anticipated in the first approval, and they were only thinking about the bank/financial firms, then that means they "over stated" the necessary funds, did they not? If it is going to take 700 billion to bail out "Wall Street", what do we do now that the auto industry has come out and asked for money? Should we lessen the amount allocated to "Wall Street"? So now...we have this HUGE fund out there that's up for grabs? I don't think so. Who are we bailing out here and who's next?

You're right about one thing, though. I probably AM to young to remember the aspect of "retail capitalism". I'm just a young kid who doesn't know any better. Just ask the rest on here:D Thanks for the compliment!

By the way...there were PLENTY of us who were saying that "Wall Street" should have taken the "Chapter 11" route and wrote and called our Congressmen as a result! For some reason, no one wanted to listen! Instead, they preferred to "spread the wealth around"!

I can also understand, you having been a GM employee (non union I assume) how you may be in favor of bailing out the auto industry. Correct me if I'm wrong here! However, as I said before, two wrongs do not make a right! The "Wall Street Fat Cats" should not have been bailed out at our expense, and many of us have called for their heads! In essence, this boils down to nothing more than "Nationalization" of certain industries, and the problem is, they want ME to pay for it. Sorry, but I'm not willing to do that!

As I said before...some folks are going to have to "suck it up"! Please don't tell me that when we have many thousands of folks who only make $ 8-$12 per hour who pay a bunch of taxes already, that these hard working people have to pay out MORE taxes to save folks who make $40 + per hour! WE AIN'T BUYING IT! If that means the UAW member has to find a job that lets him/her know what the rest of the workers are going through, maybe it will "enlighten" him/her and bring him/her back to reality. Sorry, but there is NO SYMPATHY here! I may be a conservative Republican, but I'm also a Realist!

[Mooney1el]

sprtsracer - Yes, I was a GM employee, but I would not support a bailout if it were proposed only for the auto industry. However, since our Congress already approved the blank check for bailing out Wall Street, then I think that the auto industry deserves a meager 3.5% of that money. I agree with the latest Congressional stand that they need to have a sound plan for spending the money and I think that is prudent, but did AIG or any number of banks that went to the money well have to provide a similar sound plan? I think not. Paulson and Kashkari (Cash-N-Carry) have refused to give any details about who/what they spend the money on for the reason that it may damage the image and thus other investments in the institutions that have received the money. Government transparency? At least in the auto industry case, we would know the players...

I have struggled with the question of "where does it stop" and it has even kept me awake at night. I surly hope that there are smarter people than I which can come up with viable solutions to the difficulties we are in. History points to two recent examples and we should look to them for understanding. First, there is the Argentina recession and that government's solution. It is an interesting read (executive summary: http://www.heritage.org/Research/LatinAmerica/bg2191es.cfm ), but suffice it to say that their solution has not worked. This solution seems to be the pattern that Obama and the libs are basing the US recovery plan on. The Japanese government's solution to their recession has also been a comsumate failure (executive summary: http://www.heritage.org/Research/AsiaandthePacific/BG1530ES.cfm ). Since this article was written, in 2002, the Japanese economy has continued it decline. So, we have two examples, neither of which work. Is there some middle solution which will work? I hope so.

I agree with much of your auto industry business plan above except that I don't fall for the class warfare argument. While it is certainly bad PR for the executives to fly to Washington in their Corporate jets and take huge salaries/bonuses, etc, that is not the root cause of the problems in the auto industry. It is those same executives' bad decision making that perpetrates the problems. Yes, they live "high of the hog", but I will always celebrate that some in this country have the opportunity to do so. Take that opportunity away and we pave the way for "sharing the wealth" and the big bad word, socialism.

[ffemtreed]

. Take that opportunity away and we pave the way for "sharing the wealth" and the big bad word, socialism.

Hey, our president elect ran a whole campaign on that 1 word and WON!!!! :--|

[racewire20]

I'm not for a government hand out paid for by us (the american taxpayer)
and while you all have made very good points, I don't think you understand the wide spread repercussions that filing chapter 11 will have on all the smaller businesses and their employees, and the businesses they buy from and deal with and their employees and so on (ie; the american worker/taxpayer)

Also letting these businesses go under will not do any of us any justice either.

I will say that while not for a bail out, I'm not against a loan to allow restructuring with accountability. Having someone with the proper background hired to oversee each corp. to tighten up on wasteful spending, and liquidating unprofitable areas in each. If this requires pay cuts, liquidation of assets, benefit reductions, and even lay offs the over all effect will touch fewer of us (ie; the american taxpayer) than filing chapter 11.

Ask any business owner who has been depending on an account to pay an account, to only be affected by the purchasing business filing for bankruptcy. Not to mention the fact they will only get a portion of what they are owed, they my also be forced to give back moneys paid from a prior payment.

This is all to real and can have devastating effects on a smaller business and it's employees.

My wife works for a bankruptcy law firm and I've seen firsthand how far the roots of chapter 11 reach!

[Jigmaster]

Screw the bailout, if people want to buy an automobile there will be a company that is willing to sell automobiles.

Sure these people might initially be out of a job, but sooner rather than later there is going to another company that is going to start up and hire people to make and sell these automobiles to the public.

Bailing out the big boys just reinforced bad behavior practices. But all those politicians need to find a way to repay these big companies who funded all their campaigns.

Screw the Bail out and Screw the overpaid CEO's !!!!!

I say let them go belly up it would be cheaper to start from scratch.

Ford CEO got paid 39.1 million dollars just from sept 1st alone while the company showed losses in the billions.

GM Ceo salary was to the tune of 13Million while the company reflected losses in the Billions stocks at all time low.

Toyota and honda CEO's netted less than 1 Million each while showing profits

I say a restructure of American Companies is in order. enough of Gross missmanagement. We can bring in that Katsuaki Wtatanabe from Toyota
Double his Salary Tripple the salary of thier research and Development team.
We should be on the right track in less than a year.

It's time we get back to Basics form solid stable companies with Quality in mind, and pay the American worker a decent wage.

If they are willing to do what the Chrysler CEO is willing to do of accepting a Dollar a year wage. Then i say ok Help with research and Development 2 Billion

Cut the CEO yes (Head of the Snake) Downsize upper mgt. 30-50%
New marketing strategy 500 million.

Reduce Hourly Garage svc. rates from 80.00 plus to 40-45

Would you buy a Car that after the warranty expires its very likely you will be paying through the nose to get it repaired.

This is why some Americans buy a Honda or Toyota after warranty you change the oil every 3 k battery every 2 years timing belt every 80k . keep the car ten years 200k mi sell it for nearly 35% of the original investment.
Now thats a good dependable Investment!!!
Thier People get the Big picture.

American Car companies are more interested in selling Volume???=Alot of crap!
Quality,Value and customer satisfaction needs to become Job 1

[TopsailSurf]

Screw the Bail out and Screw the overpaid CEO's !!!!!


Would you buy a Car that after the warranty expires its very likely you will be paying through the nose to get it repaired.

This is why some Americans buy a Honda or Toyota after warranty you change the oil every 3 k battery every 2 years timing belt every 80k . keep the car ten years 200k mi sell it for nearly 35% of the original investment.
Now thats a good dependable Investment!!!
Thier People get the Big picture.

American Car companies are more interested in selling Volume???=Alot of crap!
Quality,Value and customer satisfaction needs to become Job 1

You made an Excellent statement there bro! The company I work for is a direct supplier to the automotive industry. Why the Big 3 hasn't learned anything for Japan is freakin beyond me! Do you know how often we change product lines for our Japanese customers (Honda and Toyota)? We don't! They make one product(Accords, Civics, Camrys, Corollas) and they continously improve that product. They do one thing and they do it to the best of their ability. Do you know how often we change product lines for the Big 3? Normally about every 3 years. We also produce service parts, i.e. replacement parts for the car companies. The only service parts we send for the Japanese are for cars that have a lot of miles on them, and even then, we don't send out that many. I can't say the same thing about Ford, Chrysler, and GM.

There is a reason why that, on a lot of car commercials, they are comparing themselves to Honda and Toyota. When you've still got 80's and early model 90 Honda and Toyota's on the road and if you find one on the lot they still sell for a good price. That speaks volumes.

[jcreamer]

I am gettng into something that is over my head but the main emphasis used to be on quality of the vehicles. Now is the quantity produced regardless of how long the vehicle lasts, how much the vehicle loses in value, how much the repairs are on the vehicle.
And the sad thing is the American publc have been buying it.

[BubbaHoTep]

I am gettng into something that is over my head but the main emphasis used to be on quality of the vehicles. Now is the quantity produced regardless of how long the vehicle lasts, how much the vehicle loses in value, how much the repairs are on the vehicle.
And the sad thing is the American publc have been buying it.

I don't pretend to know how to fix this mess.

Companies like Honda and Toyota have not been around long enough to have a million retired workers to try to take care of (benefits/insurance), like the American companies do. I'd say that makes a difference in terms of what the American companies do with regard to changing designs and churning out vehicles and the like.

I don't want to sound "un-American" here, but I'll at least share my experiences with "Big Three" vehicles - keep in mind that I drive 45 miles one way to work every day. I also do everything I can to take care of a vehicle in terms of maintenance. My first car was a 1985 1/2 Ford Escort - five speed - good car - drove it hard for five years - college commutes and "road trips" and beach trips. Since then, I've gone through a Mercury Topaz, a Town Car, two Grand Marquis, and a Buick LeSabre. Right now, I have a 92 LeSabre, a 96 Grand Marquis, and a 95 Corolla in the driveway. I am going to have to sell the LeSabre for scrap metal. There is no telling how much money I have sunk into that GM piece of crap - I would estimate that I've spent over $2,500 on it (conservative estimate) and have driven it about 60K. I will never buy another GM product again. It eats alternators and has since I got it. It eats coil packs and ignition modules, too, and they ain't cheap. The water pump on that car is a real treat for anyone who tries to work on cars themselves - half a day and raise the block - give me a break. The Topaz was a 1984 and I used it for local driving only. I had no major problems out of it. I had a 1987 Marquis that was a jewel - I put over 225K on it - only problem was with the A/C. I'd still be driving it today had a drunk driver not hit me head on and crushed it to bits (thank God for steel frames!). I "upgraded" to a 96 Marquis after that accident. The orange dumb-a$$ check engine light is possessed, as is the O/D off light (both have been for about 45K miles). I've had it in numerous times, and there's nothing wrong electronically or with the transmission, which I REGULARLY have serviced on all my cars the "old fashioned" way by removing the pan - not the flushing. In short, my experiences with "Big Three" cars made since 1990 have NOT been positive. I drive the Corolla to work (the only "foreign" car I've EVER had and I'm 41 years old), and my wife bought a Hyundai about two years ago. It's hard to beat the price and the warranty on that Tuscon (she got the little 4-cyl), and we like it very much. When we go to the beach, we get over 25 MPG, and that's with a hard "turtle-shell" cargo box on top (where else are 'ya gonna haul that fishing gear?!) going over mountains from East Tennessee into North Carolina without any noticeable loss of power.

These American companies need to produce a better, more reliable product. Period. People who spent their lives working for those companies and were guaranteed benefits need to see them honored, too.