Sad day

[SGT.Bunghole]

Ryan frederick got 10 years for voluntary manslaughter.

Funny thing is the marijuana charge they were originally there for only yielded a 30 day, 500 dollar fine.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

He should have been released and ALL charges dropped.

A cop is dead and a soda delivery man who wanted to smoke marijuana is in jail.

Was it worth it i ask? :popcorn:

[Newsjeff]

The Chesapeake Police Department did an absolute horrendous job handling that case.

I believe that using that jailhouse informant cost them the life of one of their officers.

They should have known better.

Much, much better.

They shouldn't have been executing a search warrant at that house to start with.

However, I'm not convinced Frederick didn't hear police yell at him - several times - to open his door. And even if he didn't, he shouldn't have fired his gun blindly like he did.

Ten years for a fatally stupid "mistake" seems fair to me.

[RuddeDogg]

From 20 years on the job, the Police should have done a better job in investigatiing further. Yes there are times that you don't have the proper amount of time to properly conduct an investigation. Yes police use informants and usually go by the information given and conduct such raids after a proper investigation. Just acting on the information of a CI, FIRST RED FLAG. They did a criminal back ground check which is standard procedure and found that he had NO criminal history. SECOND RED FLAG. I know in my own department the information is given and recieved and an investigation is conducted and when completed the raid is executed. Usually a NO KNOCK search warrant is issued. The SWAT team responds and does what they do. THEIR JOB. Now I don't live in that area and I am not familiar with polices and procedures in the State of Virginia, but from some of the articles that I have read there were major faults on both sides of the fence. It is tragic that a brother office lost his life. That's one too many, anytime. As for 10 years, that is not fair to me but that is what a jury of his peers decided. Unless Mr.Frederick is hearing impared, or had music blaring, even being woke up from a sound sleep, I have a very hard time believing that he did not hear officers announce their presence. I have NEVER heard of anyone say that they did not hear my guys when they made their presence known. The key to any potential liability on the behalf of that department is the internal investigation that was done as to the investigation tat led up to the shooting. I know that if I were a family member of the officer that was killed I would doing everything in my power to find out what that report concluded. It is a shame.

[drawinout]

My problem with the whole thing is this. To the best of my knowledge Frederick wasn't under the influence of any drugs when they served the warrant, correct? Also, they didn't find anything illegal at his house, right? Now, if that was the case, do you really think he would have shot at them if he knew they were cops???? It just doesn't add up to me. Wasn't he also robbed or something not long before the "raid"? I really haven't been keeping up with it, so I'm not trying to act like I know all the details.

[Newsjeff]

Drawinout, it's impossible to say why Frederick fired his gun.

He's the only one who knows what was in his mind when he made that decision.

Police found a little weed at his house, but not enough to count.

Who cares if he was growing a little for personal use?

Yes, he was robbed before the incident. His neighborhood is a tuff area, too.

He said he was on a small amount of Xxanx when they tried to serve the warrant.

Who knows???

Should the cops have been there in the first place?

Probably not.

But he still shouldn't have fired his gun like he did.

[SGT.Bunghole]

Yes he was robbed prior to the raid, coinsidently one robber was also the informant Steven Rene Wright who is a criminal himself.

Ryan had a miniscule amount in his home something along half an once or close to an ounce. That was were the 30 days and 500 dollar fine came into play. And we all know smoking marijuana should land you 30 days in jail at the least. I mean it is a horrible drug, is just destroys everyones life and makes you rape children.

The police should not have raided his home immediately following a robbery of his home by the informant to gain evidence, period. Now read that again, the police paid this informant to basically commit breaking and entering to obtain evidence, ILLEGALLY! They knew he had a licensed fire arm. They knew where he worked. They should have confronted him outside his home or on his way to work or even at work. THIS IS WHY THIS DIDNT TURN INTO A MURDER CASE!

What would our forefathers think about a police force that has the right to bust into your home at any given time ALL FROM A CRIMINALS WORD?

This kind of para military actions by law enforcement needs to stop!

I have supported ryan ever since this case broke.

[lil red jeep]

Ryan frederick got 10 years for voluntary manslaughter.
He should have been released and ALL charges dropped.

A cop is dead and a soda delivery man who wanted to smoke marijuana is in jail.

Was it worth it i ask? :popcorn:

Sad day my ass! The little cop killing bastard is lucky he didn't get greased in the process. If it weren't for the police using incredible restraint at the time of the shooting he'd be dead right now. Martyred by the same folks who think he should have been let off for an illegal activity. He's one lucky guy.

Let me guess, those who think he should have been aquitted are also on board for the whole "stop snitchin" campaign! Pitiful!

[SGT.Bunghole]

Lets not forget joe horn who killed two people that had nothing at all to do with him or his property. Different state laws ect i know but still. Persuing someone and telling the cops you are going to kill them or shooting someone who is reaching through your door a few days after your own house has been robbed. joe-drunk /ryan-stoner. You be the judge.

[SGT.Bunghole]

Sad day my ass! The little cop killing bastard is lucky he didn't get greased in the process. If it weren't for the police using incredible restraint at the time of the shooting he'd be dead right now. Martyred by the same folks who think he should have been let off for an illegal activity. He's one lucky guy.

Let me guess, those who think he should have been aquitted are also on board for the whole "stop snitchin" campaign! Pitiful!

More like


The cops are lucky he wasnt a crack dealer with a wasr 10 fully loaded with two stacked 30 round mags at the ready and a 75 round drum already in the hole.

Dude wait was that my 420 post?

[surfchunker]

lets say it wasn't a cop and he killed a thief breaking in ...what would have happened to him .... if he really didn't know it was the cops he should have gotten off ... or at most time served ... The cops screwed up bad and cost an officer his life and that is a shame ... one life dead and the other ruined for the rest of his life ... two wrongs don't make a right ... does anybody have a link to the audio and video of the intergations they are talking about ?

[lil red jeep]

lets say it wasn't a cop and he killed a thief breaking in ...what would have happened to him ....

Or lets just say for the fun of it, a neighborhood kid who perhaps knew Frederick was early to bed, decided it was the right time to knock on his door to sell the little pork chop a box or 7 of girl scout cookies? He obviously has a sweet tooth, and it was shown clearly in court (oops...maybe you didn't care enough to attend any of the hearing) that there was no arm reaching in to unlock the door. Sorry officer, I was hallucinating on my xanax and weed cocktail. So as little Heather knocks on the door, BLAM!

Forget Joe Horn or who ever else people want to throw out there. This case was about one man who chose to cultivate weed, for his own use or for neighborhood distribution, and in his paranoia decided that he was going to recklessly shoot through a closed door at a sound! Just a sound! Could have been a girl scout, could have been the the paper boy collecting. Regardless, Frederick was engaged in an illegal activity (whether you like the fact growing marijuana is illegal or not isn't important. Contact your elected officials to express your dislike for that particular law.) and in his own mind, justified taking the life of someone at his front door. Yep, if I were you, I'd be contacting the Vatican to see if they would start the process of making this puke a saint!

[RuddeDogg]

Like I said there in NO way in hell that he did not know that the police were at his door. He would have to be severly hearing impared or had the stereo blaring. Let's not forget it was a SWAT team making the entry to his house. They deploy flash bangs, and announce themselves before making entry by raming your door. NOW.....if they, the police did not do that, then it was a very stupid move. The reason why you do this is so that your people don't get shot. As for the Horn incident, that was totally different. He confronted two men that robbed his neighbors residence. They confronted him, he (Horn) produced a shot gun and the two men turned and ran away. They were unarmed and were shot in the back, THAT'S were that situation went wrong. Sadly in that incident the grand jury decided not to indict Mr. Horn. I am all for castle doctrine law. You have the right to defend yourself and your property, your business and in the state of Texas your neighbor's residence. The problem that you have with that is the two men, unarmed were shot in the back while running away. It doesn't matter that they didn't have their green cards, or that they were part of a burglary ring operating in the area. You don't have the right to shoot two unarmed men in the back. Had Mr. Horn shot the two men when they initially confronted him there any hooplah to this story.

[redneckranger]

Im sorry if it were a robber Mr. Frederick would be free as a justifible homicide but since it was cop he gets 10 years thats the outrage. I have never been a cop but in the military they teach you entering buliding is a dangerous OP. Even if you screaming at the top of your lungs for someone to get down there is a danger of being shot or shot at. However I don't believe the police did a good enough job in announcing they're presence( ie someone was shot and killed).

The being the case Ryan Frederick would have done exactly what I would I hear someone trying to enter (without or poorly announced Police officers) I would shoot first and ask questions later. To defend my wife and son from someone trying to ILLEAGALY entering my place. Just because it was the Police doesn't make what they did legal

We need to stop the Gestapo tatics of the government and take back our liberties

[basstardo]

Sorry officer, I was hallucinating on my xanax and weed cocktail. So as little Heather knocks on the door, BLAM!


That's a bit far fetched. You're not going to trip on weed and xanax. I don't care to get into the argument, but that's just not true.

[Malakas07]

The Chesapeake Police Department did an absolute horrendous job handling that case.

Very much agree. They could've saved Det. Shivers.


I believe that using that jailhouse informant cost them the life of one of their officers.


Absolutely, They probably felt more like dumbasses when all they found where Japanese Maples and materials to grow Japanese Maples. Also the informant isn't credible either. A snitch just trying to say whatever to reduce his own sentences.


However, I'm not convinced Frederick didn't hear police yell at him - several times - to open his door. And even if he didn't, he shouldn't have fired his gun blindly like he did.

Ten years for a fatally stupid "mistake" seems fair to me.

Disagree. He was in a deep sleep. Both dogs run downstairs and bark their asses off nonstop. He awoke to his door being rammed in. But he says he didn't hear any Police announcement. But he does see a dark silhouette run across his front window. To add to all this adrenaline his house was "robbed" just days before.

WTKR (http://www.wtkr.com/Global/story.asp?S=8513927) -Meanwhile, Frederick's family revealed a bullet hole inside the home they say was caused by police fire. The hole passes through a corner by Frederick's back bedroom. Family members said, and Frederick's attorney confirmed, that police went to the home days after the shooting and plugged the hole with some kind of putty or filler. :confused:


The Chesapeake Police Department should've been under investigation here.

[jhmorgan]

His neighborhood is a tuff area, too.

Where the SONO boys at, them fightin words!

But seriously, the guy had been robbed previously, had someone he thought was trying to rob him, and acted in defense.

LRJ, please find someone who hallucinates off xanax. Its not like the guy was seeing rainbows and chasing pink bunnies. Last I checked, its a legal drug. Not defending his pot use in the least, as I am glad that it is illegal, but they woudl not have raided his house for the amount they found. Clearly they had faulty intelligence. Much like Ryan had faulty intelligence when he shot (thuoght he was being robbed). Is he lucky that they did not shoot him? Of course. But do we REALLY think that if he had known htey were cops, he would have shot?

About a month after I moved to Jacksonville, we had a very similiar raid on an apartment across the complex from me. Now these are luxury appartments that I would never have guessed had dope dealers in them. The narc unit shows up in SUV's (unmarked) and trucks. I would have thought they were just regular residents were it not for the vests taht they put on (still unmarked) and the guns they had all over their bodies. My first thought watching was "oh shit, I am about to see another accidental shooting of a cop". Luckily, they broke through the door and apprehended them without incident. But what if they had gone through the wrong apartment and the owner happened to have a gun?Would they have shot the resident? Would he/she have shot them?

In situations like that and with Ryan, why not wait until they walk out the front door? Why go in at dark at all? Just so many questions regarding this scenario. While a cop's death is absolutely unjustifiable, why bring that chance to come up at all?

[RuddeDogg]

Ok, let me see if I can shed some light on some things here.

Unmarked vehicles- It adds to the element of surprise in case the person or people have look outs.

Informants- are used all of the time weather they are jailhouse or not. You take the information given and INVESTIGATE it to see if it is credible or not. However there some times when time is of the essence and you do not have time to do an investigation. That is the chance you take,

Dark and early morning- are the easiet times you are going to find the target at home.

Regulations-we all know that police departments have rules and regulations especially when it comes to warrants services and even more especially when it comes to SWAT operations. If these were not followed then someone in the police department

[RuddeDogg]

Lost the server for a few...........

To finish what I was saying. If the rules and regulations were not follow properly then someone shoud be held accountable or even charged if necessary. From what I have read on this the local police screwed up and it got someone killed. As far as firing blidly at a shadow? STUPID, STUPID move. You NEVER fire blindly. ALWAYS identify your target. It would big time if that shadow was his mother or father. If the family of the slain officer as well as the family of the guy who got locked up have good attorneys then they should push, even if it means going to court, to get the outcome of the internal investigation that was done. As far as being in a deep sleep, there is no way in hell that he would not have heard a flash bang yet a bunch of guys screaming at the top of their lungs as to who they were. he would have to be deaf not to. We have had people whacked out on heroin, coke, barbs, etc, etc, etc, and NOT ONCE did they ever say that they didn't know it was the police let alone not hear them. Not saying that it couldn't happen, but the chances are real, real, slim.

[redneckranger]

thats why i doubt they ID'd themselves

[Rockstar]

So I have watched COPS once or twice... I am pretty sure the cops just didn't walk up to the door screaming "POLICE!" and politely knocked, or rang the door bell. I am sorry, but if I am awoken to someone breaking my door down, i'm not going to stop and check the guys ID.

[Newsjeff]

OK, lets say Frederick didn't know it was the police.

He hid behind his front door, stuck his arm out and fired a blind shot.

He had no idea who was on the outside when he fired.

I understand he'd be scared if he thought it was someone trying to rob him.

But you must be sure before you pull that trigger.

[lil red jeep]

That's a bit far fetched. You're not going to trip on weed and xanax. I don't care to get into the argument, but that's just not true.

Who cares whether he was trippin on xanax or not. That was his story. He was the one who said he had smoked some weed when he got home and then took xanax before crashing in his bed. Then all of a sudden he claims he doesn't hear the police announcing they are serving a warrant to enter his house. The prick can't have it both ways. One minute he says he wasn't under the influence of anything, then the next minute he claims the fact he couldn't hear the police announce was because the drugs he took before bed. Just another inconsistancy in the guys story.

There was no intent to infringe on drug interaction expertise some of the people responding to this thread have over me. I don't do the stuff, I just arrest those who do in my presence.:D

[RuddeDogg]

So I have watched COPS once or twice... I am pretty sure the cops just didn't walk up to the door screaming "POLICE!" and politely knocked, or rang the door bell. I am sorry, but if I am awoken to someone breaking my door down, i'm not going to stop and check the guys ID.

No one is saying you should check id's, but reacting like that is gonna get ya two things, jail or the grave yard. I'm sure the the cops didn't knock on the door and say "avon calling" either. Bottom line is he shot and killed a police officer by firing blindly plain and simple. I doubt that they didn't say anything and made entry into the property. It's obvious that the Police made mistakes. You can never garuntee that you are going to walk away a raid. That chance exists all the time. You do the best you can. SWAT ops can be executed to perfection and something still goes wrong. That's Murphy's Law.

[lil red jeep]

Ok, let me see if I can shed some light on some things here.

Unmarked vehicles- It adds to the element of surprise in case the person or people have look outs.

Informants- are used all of the time weather they are jailhouse or not. You take the information given and INVESTIGATE it to see if it is credible or not. However there some times when time is of the essence and you do not have time to do an investigation. That is the chance you take,

Dark and early morning- are the easiet times you are going to find the target at home.

Regulations-we all know that police departments have rules and regulations especially when it comes to warrants services and even more especially when it comes to SWAT operations. If these were not followed then someone in the police department

Dogg, I've come to the conclusion that those who are the most adamantly opposed to the tactics the police used that night or in general are the same ones who scream bloody murder if they themselves get pulled over driving 39 mph in a school zone and them get pissed if the police can't find the little buggers who drove throught their lawn at 2 a.m. They want the police only when they need them and other than that, would rather just be left to their own selves. But, if they go out to the local tavern and mouth off and some guy whips the snot out of them, the cops better be there to arrest the guy or they're not doing thier jobs. It's a double standard I've learned to live with. I don't pretend to like it because it makes seemingly intelligent people look lilke hypocrites, but it comes with the territory. Those doing illegal activities typically scream the loudest when the police show up for them and don't pull up in a marked unit giving them a heads up to flush their stash down the toilet. It just goes on and on.

I hope you guys will excuse me for a while. I have to go baby sit Mr. Frederick tonight. Make sure he gets all of his candy bars he ordered and make sure his dinner is warm enough for his liking as he smirks at the outcome of his trial. Meanwhile, Mrs. Shivers and her children will be sitting alone at their dinner table tonight. Poor Ryan Frederick!

[jhmorgan]

LRJ - Why cant we just question the logic surrounding the whole situation? Why does that result in you lumping us all together as a bunch of idiots (implied in your statements)? I guess when a police officer gets killed on the job, we should all rush out and lynch someone then stop and ask questions later.

Youve stated several times that you are in law enforcement, does that not cloud your judgement on this issue? You think we are all happy that a police officer is dead, or that his wife is a widow and his children are fatherless? Get real. Is your sense of reality that distorted? Glad you have control over other humans...

[Malakas07]

OK, lets say Frederick didn't know it was the police.

He hid behind his front door, stuck his arm out and fired a blind shot.

He had no idea who was on the outside when he fired.

I understand he'd be scared if he thought it was someone trying to rob him.

But you must be sure before you pull that trigger.

No doubt. I absolutely agree.
Always identify your target and what is behind your target.

But imo, Frederick isn't the only one at fault here. I think he made an honest mistake(which shouldn't go unpunished). BUT the Chesapeake Police Department should also take some heat. There was poor judgement on their part as well.

[Newsjeff]

BUT the Chesapeake Police Department should also take some heat. There was poor judgement on their part as well.
No doubt about that either.

[RuddeDogg]

JHM-there is no reason why you can't question the logic on how and why things are done. I can see where LRJ is coming from. I have worked when one of our own was killed in the line of duty. It really does touch a nerve sometimes. Sometimes the public needs to and should know what we deal with every day. It is a tragedy on both sides of the fence. It just goes to show how things can get FUBARed real quick when decissions and choices are made by the seat of your pants. I have been on the job for 20 years and am one of two operators that handle communications for SWAT operations. I question why things are done and how they are done when it doesn't make sense to me. Like I have said, I don't know anything about the operations of that police department but I can only speak for my own. That being said, most, not all departments operate in the same manner when it comes to SWAT ops or warrant services. Like every other hot issue that comes up there are ALWAYS 3 sides to the story. Yours, theirs and the truth. Sadly we may never know what really happened but then again ya just never know.

[SGT.Bunghole]

Look im not condoning any type of illegal activity. This was a bust gone bad, in my eyes by bad cops. It was a sad day on both sides of the fence, for both families.

There was another 150 plant raid done last month. Yep they got 150 plants from the house. Not a small amount of smoking weed and some growing equipment like ryan. This other dude was straight growing.

However the police did some actual surveillance on the guy for a few months and the bust went down smoothly. This was in vbeach.

http://www.wavy.com/dpp/news/Local_Virginia_Beach_Marijuana_Bust_Revelstroke_Court_Wavy_20080203


BTW LRJ I am one of those people opposed to some gun toting cop bashing my door down for a god damn plant! However I AM NOT the same person who screams bloody murder when i get pulled over for speeding. In fact out of the 5 or 6 times i have been pulled over i was able to talk my was out of a ticket through pure politeness.


ONE MORE THING OFFICER, WAIT FOR IT











YOU CANT FLUSH A MARIJUANA GROWING OPERATION DOWN THE TOILET! THERE IS NO NEED FOR PARAMILITARY TACTICS IN THESE CASES!

[drawinout]

Look im not condoning any type of illegal activity. This was a bust gone bad, in my eyes by bad cops. It was a sad day on both sides of the fence, for both families.

There was another 150 plant raid done last month. Yep they got 150 plants from the house. Not a small amount of smoking weed and some growing equipment like ryan. This other dude was straight growing.

However the police did some actual surveillance on the guy for a few months and the bust went down smoothly. This was in vbeach.

http://www.wavy.com/dpp/news/Local_Virginia_Beach_Marijuana_Bust_Revelstroke_Court_Wavy_20080203


BTW LRJ I am one of those people opposed to some gun toting cop bashing my door down for a god damn plant! However I AM NOT the same person who screams bloody murder when i get pulled over for speeding. In fact out of the 5 or 6 times i have been pulled over i was able to talk my was out of a ticket through pure politeness.


ONE MORE THING OFFICER, WAIT FOR IT











YOU CANT FLUSH A MARIJUANA GROWING OPERATION DOWN THE TOILET! THERE IS NO NEED FOR PARAMILITARY TACTICS IN THESE CASES!

HOLY CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I know that guy Jeff that got busted with the plants! I haven't talked to him in about 4 years, but I knew him pretty good. His moms house isn't too far from where I live at now. I'm not taking up for what he was doing, but Jeff was a good kid. Real nice fella that was never rude or mean to anybody. HUH...... He may have been messing with some pot, but he was a decent guy... I know a lot of people that have messed with growing pot that were decent guys though. I used to hang out with Jeff when I was in highschool even.... DAMN!! Names are going through my head of people that may have told on him, although his group of friends could be totally different by now....... I haven't smoked any pot in years, but I personally don't think it's any worse for you than alcohol. Wow, I bet they're going to burn him for this one. Just goes to show anybody can get in trouble for it. Jeff was almost a preppy type kid. I bet his mom is PISSED!!!! Again, I'm not trying to make excuses for what he did. This one just hit kind of close to home because I knew him. Dang Jeff..........

[drawinout]

SGT., another reason it went down safely when they got Jeff is because he's not one of those guys that would even own a gun, never mind shoot somebody. This guy couldn't hurt a fly. I still can't get over the fact he dug himself in that deep. I sure am glad I never went that route. Wonder how much time they're going to give him for it? I can't imagine his record was all that bad, but I could be wrong. Never sell dope kids!!!!!!!!!!!

[lil red jeep]

Ryan frederick got 10 years for voluntary manslaughter.
He should have been released and ALL charges dropped.

A cop is dead and a soda delivery man who wanted to smoke marijuana is in jail.


Look im not condoning any type of illegal activity.


You don't huh?

[RuddeDogg]

Well once again WE don't know the whole story. We DON'T know exactly what the informant told them or HOW he told them. It's easy to sit back and say that it was overkill for a "little grass", but then again we DON'T how it was offered to the police. Yes in my opinion they made mistakes, BUT....unless you have done their job or have been in their shoes..........well


ONE MORE THING, WAIT FOR IT..............


















IT'S REAL EASY TO ARM CHAIR QUARTER BACK.

[lil red jeep]

LRJ - Why cant we just question the logic surrounding the whole situation? Why does that result in you lumping us all together as a bunch of idiots (implied in your statements)? I guess when a police officer gets killed on the job, we should all rush out and lynch someone then stop and ask questions later.

Youve stated several times that you are in law enforcement, does that not cloud your judgement on this issue? You think we are all happy that a police officer is dead, or that his wife is a widow and his children are fatherless? Get real. Is your sense of reality that distorted? Glad you have control over other humans...

Ya know Morgan, I'm not SnS. I'm not going to sit here and debate you on a subject you apparently have no first hand knowledge of. You've probably watched Cops or Worlds Dumbest Criminals, but I hardly think that constitutes expertise. That's o.k. though. It's your opinion.

I've sat back and read countless threads you've taken part in where if ANYONE disagrees with you, you break out the thesaurus and bust it over their heads to show some sort of superior intelligence. I have neither the time nor desire to have a battle of words with you. It matters not one iota how much sense I make, because you have never admitted on this site that you were not 100% correct. You probably never will. So excuse me while I bow down to your omnipotence and let you have your say in things.

As for being in law enforcement, sure it clouds my judgment. I have buried too many friends and co-worker who were putting their lives on the line so you could come on here and bad mouth them. I see more and more clearly what pisses off military veterans when people don't have an ounce of appreciation for their sacrifices, but like them, I'll defend the rights of the ones who want to second guess their action. So enjoy Morgan! And... Your Welcome.

[lil red jeep]

ONE MORE THING, WAIT FOR IT..............

IT'S REAL EASY TO ARM CHAIR QUARTER BACK.

Well said.

[SGT.Bunghole]

Arm chair quarterback? I hate football. Furthermore you guys know me from post on a fishing forum. You have no knowledge weather or not i have been inside a home that was raided or not, justifiably or through crooked cop work were no arrest were even made. You cant speak for me. Sure some of you may work around convicted criminals but pot smokers are not criminals.

[lil red jeep]

pot smokers are not criminals.

Well, until you get the Virginia legislature to agree with you on that, I can say without reservation, you are wrong. Smoke it in my presence, and watch what happens.:D

[Cdog]

Well, until you get the Virginia legislature to agree with you on that, I can say without reservation, you are wrong. Smoke it in my presence, and watch what happens.:D
Guess that means we will never fish together...

[lil red jeep]

Guess that means we will never fish together...

Well if we're fishing in N.C., I don't have jurisdiction there! ;)

[dirtyhandslopez]

I was wondering about changing mind about going to castamuck myself.
LRJ I have brought this up before, over the same subject as before. You say anyone that breaks any law is a criminal and should be treated as one. Fair enough.
In the Commomwealth of Va. it is also illegal for any man or woman who are not married to have sex. It is also illegal for any married man and woman to have sex any other way than the missionary position. It's called sodomy. Are you also going to bust prolly 99% of the people on here for those offences? If you do, you won't be welcome anywhere, if you don't you're not doing your job? Troubling isn't it?
Any chance of you posting a picture of yourself so we can all see what you look like, that way we can decide whether we want to hang around YOU or not.

[RuddeDogg]

SGT-first of all I don't speak for ANYONE here. I speak for myself. The point that I was attempting to make was that we DON'T the whole story as to wht led up to what happened. The other point I was attempting to make was that unless you have done the job, who are YOU or ANYONE to say how it should be done? That would be like me rollin into the OBX and tellin all those guys how to fish for red drum when I have NEVER caught one a day in my life.

DHL-You make a valid point at least you can see the the problem that exists. You do your job and catch crap, ya don't do your job and catch crap.

Personally I could care less if ya smoke grass or don't smoke grass or do any other form of recreational medication. That's a choice, one which I can say I don't anymore. Been there and done that. The problem is that when something like this goes wrong, righat away labels like Nazi and Storm Trooper as well as others are thrown around even before the whole story is out.

[dirtyhandslopez]

Coming from an enforcement backround Dogg, you , I'm sure, will have realized that not every law on the books can be enforced all the time. To do so would be a waste of taxpayers money. Some of them are archaic and innane and just plain dumb. So how does an officer pick which ones to enforce or not?
I would hope that police officers would be concentrating on violent offenders more than anything else. And especailly violent offenders over theives(things can be replaced) and pot heads

[lil red jeep]

I was wondering about changing mind about going to castamuck myself.
LRJ I have brought this up before, over the same subject as before. You say anyone that breaks any law is a criminal and should be treated as one. Fair enough.
In the Commomwealth of Va. it is also illegal for any man or woman who are not married to have sex. It is also illegal for any married man and woman to have sex any other way than the missionary position. It's called sodomy. Are you also going to bust prolly 99% of the people on here for those offences? If you do, you won't be welcome anywhere, if you don't you're not doing your job? Troubling isn't it?
Any chance of you posting a picture of yourself so we can all see what you look like, that way we can decide whether we want to hang around YOU or not.

One could only hope that someone would show enough restraint not to smoke weed out in public. Maybe some do. I don't know. But to give just a brief idea of what I am obligated to do is simple. I am sworn to make an arrest for any misdemeanor of felony committed in my presence, or if I have probable cause to believe a felony has been committed, or will be. That being said, if you want to split hairs about a LEO arresting someone for having unwed sex...well this isn't worth discussing. I went to the last castamuck and as far as I can remember, I didn't see anyone smoking marijuana out there. I didn't see it or smell it. If you or anyone else has some difficulty with me being out there because there may be an issue of you doing something illegal while I'm there, I'll save you the problem and I won't be there. Let the celebrations begin!

Pretty sad actually. I at least know whom I can fish around who know me well enough to be respectful and not put me in a compromising position where I would have to do my job.

Terry, Clay, Shooter, Eric, have a good time guys. Maybe I can make the next one.

[Malakas07]

If you or anyone else has some difficulty with me being out there because there may be an issue of you doing something illegal while I'm there, I'll save you the problem and I won't be there. Let the celebrations begin!
:p
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/Malakas07/832zv3q.png

[basstardo]

If you feel the need to skip out tomorrow that's you're call, but it's not necessary. What people do in their own homes is one thing, but if someone is dumb enough to light the tweeds out there, then that's just stupid. I don't smoke the tweeds, but I know folks who do, and that's their decision. But to pull out of something because of this thread is silly. I don't think anyone has any issue with you being out there.

[dirtyhandslopez]

But to give just a brief idea of what I am obligated to do is simple. I am sworn to make an arrest for any misdemeanor of felony committed in my presence, or if I have probable cause to believe a felony has been committed, or will be. That being said, if you want to split hairs about a LEO arresting someone for having unwed sex...well this isn't worth discussing
There are no hairs being split. You are stating the above. So, by your own words, that you are sworn to uphold the law that has been comitted or "will be". Anytime that someone makes twinkly eyes at another who are not married you have to arrest them, because a misdemeanor may be about to be committed.
I guess what I am getting at is that everything is down to what the officer actually wants to do. If every police officer felt the need to bust everyone for everything illegal, even when out of uniform, they are going to be very, very busy officers who will not have many friends who are not police officers. That would be not good for society at all.
The more the merrier for casting I say. Come on down LRJ. Don't let discussions turn you away
I know I for one will not be bringing any scooters to work on while I'm there...

[TreednNC]

Weed smokers may not be hardened criminals so to speak, but I think the fact that such a large amount of a relatively harmless, yet outlawed sustance is smoked, and not getting taxed angers somebody in a leather desk chair.

I also believe that the reason there is so much emphasis on putting away 'harmless weed smokers' is the fact that harmless is generally the last man in line. Idk numbers, but Id venture 90% of whats out there comes from a violent organization between the time the seed is planted til it gets to the lowely smoker. So start at the bottom and work your way up. Id bet if there werent millions of untaxed income dollars and voilence in the higher ups, a mafia like setting, it wouldnt be as bad.

[Dr. Bubba]

if weed was legal, like alcohol, there wouldn't be "millions of untaxed income dollars and voilence in the higher ups, a mafia like setting."

ima just saying....

[lil red jeep]

DHL, I appreciate you not having a problem with me being there Saturday. BTW, Congrats on the awaiting package! I'll think I'll sit this one out though. I'll probably get up with some of my Richmond SWAT buddy's and see what we can work out for a raid on houses know to participate in rampant sodomy. Just brushing up on our Gestapo tactics! Besides, rather than post a picture on the web (most monitors don't have a wide enough screen), I'll just stay anonymous so I can ruin folks days this summer playing beach cop. :rolleyes:

[TreednNC]

id rather yall fight over it and it be illegal than legalize it where i hafta smell tha crap everywhere like cigarette smoke

im just sayin...

[RuddeDogg]

Let's take a look on how this thing went wrong. I hope have this right from what I have read.

Informant goes to PD and says so and so has a bunch of pot plants in his garage.

Informant alledgedly broke into so and so's property prior to making report.
(known or unknown to police). I doubt kown.

Police, without an investigation execute a search warrant on the residence where an officer is killed.

Outcome, officer dead, shooter gets 10 years.

Like I said before, we don't know how the informant presented his information to the police. If I have this right, an investigation should have been done ie, sending in an under cover to do a buy and then execute the warrant.

NOW.......let's look at how it can happen with out an investigation.

Informant goes to police and reports that so and so has a certain amount of drugs packaged up and ready to distribute.

Informant knows this because he broke into so and so's residence.
(again known or unknown to police) I doubt known.

Warrant is obtained and executed on residence and an officer is killed.


In the first scenerio TIME really was not that important because they were plants. Weather they were Japanese maple trees or not.

The second, time is of the essence because the drugs are gonna be on the street anytime.

This how it happens from time to time. There are times when you don't have the time to conduct a proper investigation. There again we don't know what the informant told the police. He could have combined both scenerios by saying Mr. Frederick had both plants AND bags made up. We just don't know. Sadly and very unfortunately it takes something like this to happen to have things change. I not in any way taking sides in this at all. It is obvious that mistakes were made. Hopefully it won't happen again. But that chance is always there.

[lil red jeep]

Let's take a look on how this thing went wrong. I hope have this right from what I have read.

Informant goes to PD and says so and so has a bunch of pot plants in his garage.

Informant alledgedly broke into so and so's property prior to making report.
(known or unknown to police).

Police, without an investigation execute a search warrant on the residence where an officer is killed.

Outcome, officer dead, shooter gets 10 years.


Pretty close!

Informant buys pot from shooter. Informant see's growing operation in detached garage, then breaks in to detached garage and steals plants.

Informant goes to PD and tells them defendant is growing and selling dope.

Police execute search warrant obtained by information presented by reliable informant (whom they did not know had previously broken into detached garage)

Defendant shoots/ kills officer

Defendant is convicted, facing 1 to 10 years. In the event judge sentences him to 10 years and then suspends some of the time, defendant could walk much sooner.

[Shooter]

Let's put it this way, if you want to smoke weed at home then you take the chance I don't care but if you get busted and are around me and cause me to have a hard time with the police then you got more problems than just the cops.

DHLP and LilRed,, I hope both of you show up tomorrow and I know there will be no problem.

Last and not least ,,, NO MORE MAKING ANY OF THIS ON A PERSONAL LEVEL.

[Cdog]

Well if we're fishing in N.C., I don't have jurisdiction there! ;)
LOL, I don't smoke weed,was just busting your balls.

[J_Lannon]

LRJ................. LOL

That cop and his peers had a serious case of the dumbshits!

Hero cop breaking down the door of a casual pot smoker......................wow!

He's dead because he played the MACHO COP........who never really investigated this kid who turned out to be a casual pot smoker.

I'd love to see your reaction when some buttwipe starts breaking down your door some day. You gonna call the cops? They wont be there for at least 5 minutes. You'll be dead within seconds.

The cop died from stupidity.

[RuddeDogg]

Cop breaking down the door of a pot smoke who was reported to be a drug dealer. It's not up to SWAT to ivestigate narcotics, they execute search warrants and high risk warrants, that's why you have detectives or a narcotics unit. He's dead because they took information that was not acurately relayed to them and becuase those respective units didn't do their job.

[NTKG]

They knew he had a licensed fire arm. .

they dont have firearm licensing in va. so that information is incorrect

[dirtyhandslopez]

BTW, Congrats on the awaiting package!
:confused::confused::confused:
Unless you mean the baby. That's doing just fine. Saw a ultrasound yesterday. All arms and legs are there and it did a flip in the womb as we watched. Well cool to watch.

[NTKG]

lets say it wasn't a cop and he killed a thief breaking in ...what would have happened to him .... if he really didn't know it was the cops he should have gotten off ... or at most time served ... The cops screwed up bad and cost an officer his life and that is a shame ... one life dead and the other ruined for the rest of his life ... two wrongs don't make a right ... does anybody have a link to the audio and video of the intergations they are talking about ?


in va he would have gone to jail. the discharge of a firearm in self defense is very strict it its legalities.... then when he got out, he would have been sued in civil court.

[NTKG]

Im sorry if it were a robber Mr. Frederick would be free as a justifible homicide but since it was cop he gets 10 years thats the outrage. I have never been a cop but in the military they teach you entering buliding is a dangerous OP. Even if you screaming at the top of your lungs for someone to get down there is a danger of being shot or shot at. However I don't believe the police did a good enough job in announcing they're presence( ie someone was shot and killed).

The being the case Ryan Frederick would have done exactly what I would I hear someone trying to enter (without or poorly announced Police officers) I would shoot first and ask questions later. To defend my wife and son from someone trying to ILLEAGALY entering my place. Just because it was the Police doesn't make what they did legal

We need to stop the Gestapo tatics of the government and take back our liberties

uh no, thats not true. you should read up on the self defense laws in va

[NTKG]

Very much agree. They could've saved Det. Shivers.



Absolutely, They probably felt more like dumbasses when all they found where Japanese Maples and materials to grow Japanese Maples. Also the informant isn't credible either. A snitch just trying to say whatever to reduce his own sentences.



Disagree. He was in a deep sleep. Both dogs run downstairs and bark their asses off nonstop. He awoke to his door being rammed in. But he says he didn't hear any Police announcement. But he does see a dark silhouette run across his front window. To add to all this adrenaline his house was "robbed" just days before.

:confused:


The Chesapeake Police Department should've been under investigation here.

so deer hunters should shoot at noise or a shaking bush???

i live in the city. so anytime i see a shadow in front of my window should i put 30 rounds through it?

[NTKG]

In the Commomwealth of Va. it is also illegal for any man or woman who are not married to have sex. It is also illegal for any married man and woman to have sex any other way than the missionary position. It's called sodomy. Are you also going to bust prolly 99% of the people on here for those offences? .



by the way darin. i've met a buncha guys on here, i doubt 99% of them are gettin any. :D:D

[NTKG]

LRJ................. LOL

That cop and his peers had a serious case of the dumbshits!

Hero cop breaking down the door of a casual pot smoker......................wow!

He's dead because he played the MACHO COP........who never really investigated this kid who turned out to be a casual pot smoker.

I'd love to see your reaction when some buttwipe starts breaking down your door some day. You gonna call the cops? They wont be there for at least 5 minutes. You'll be dead within seconds.

The cop died from stupidity.


your kayaking skills may be hot but not your info on this... you realize the officer kicking in your door is not the same one who wrote the warrant right? what he did was called procedure. your post was out of line

[NTKG]

:confused::confused::confused:
Unless you mean the baby. That's doing just fine. Saw a ultrasound yesterday. All arms and legs are there and it did a flip in the womb as we watched. Well cool to watch.

its not mine. I don't care what charlotte says......

[surfchunker]

If you read the story he didn't shoot at shadows .... the cops had busted a panel out of his door and was halfway thru the hole when he was shot .... I doubt a girl scout would be climbing thru a hole in your door .... the cop was shot in the top of the shoulder barely missing his vest ... I still say it's a double tradegy .... one family lost their Husband/father and I'm sure this will haunt him for the rest of his life ...

[lil red jeep]

:confused::confused::confused:
Unless you mean the baby. That's doing just fine. Saw a ultrasound yesterday. All arms and legs are there and it did a flip in the womb as we watched. Well cool to watch.


Yea, the baby is what I meant. I take it this is the first? The ultrasounds are quite an event. Was there when both of my own were born and that is the ultimate. The first one went so fast the Dr. didn't give me the option to cut the cord, and the second was a c-section. Again, congrats to you and Mom!

[lil red jeep]

The cop died from stupidity.

I don't ever recall you posting a thread quite as attacking as this one. Also, quite misinformed. For someone as intelligent as you are John, this wasn't your best post. Seems like you are thrying to bait a response. Not this time. If there is a problem with me, perhaps you might want to take it to p.m.'s where we can exchange phone numbers and discuss this away from here.

[lil red jeep]

If you read the story he didn't shoot at shadows .... the cops had busted a panel out of his door and was halfway thru the hole when he was shot .... I doubt a girl scout would be climbing thru a hole in your door .... the cop was shot in the top of the shoulder barely missing his vest ... I still say it's a double tradegy .... one family lost their Husband/father and I'm sure this will haunt him for the rest of his life ...


Sorry SC,

What you read on this site and what was actually PROVEN in the court are entirely different. You seem as misinformed as JL. Like Neil said, the officer that was killed was standing at the bottom of the steps and not the one who used the ram on the door. Secondly, it was again proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that Frederick did not see anyone coming through a broken panel in his door. No one came through the missing panel, nor attempted to, nor reached through to attempt to unlock the door like Frederick said happened. The guy is a liar and a cop killer. His house was not broken into, his detached garage was. Some folks should take the time to sit in the court room and listen to actual testimony before making uninformed comments.

[lil red jeep]

your kayaking skills may be hot but not your info on this... you realize the officer kicking in your door is not the same one who wrote the warrant right? what he did was called procedure. your post was out of line


Thanks Neil.

[jhmorgan]

Ya know Morgan, I'm not SnS. I'm not going to sit here and debate you on a subject you apparently have no first hand knowledge of. You've probably watched Cops or Worlds Dumbest Criminals, but I hardly think that constitutes expertise. That's o.k. though. It's your opinion.

I've sat back and read countless threads you've taken part in where if ANYONE disagrees with you, you break out the thesaurus and bust it over their heads to show some sort of superior intelligence. I have neither the time nor desire to have a battle of words with you. It matters not one iota how much sense I make, because you have never admitted on this site that you were not 100% correct. You probably never will. So excuse me while I bow down to your omnipotence and let you have your say in things.

As for being in law enforcement, sure it clouds my judgment. I have buried too many friends and co-worker who were putting their lives on the line so you could come on here and bad mouth them. I see more and more clearly what pisses off military veterans when people don't have an ounce of appreciation for their sacrifices, but like them, I'll defend the rights of the ones who want to second guess their action. So enjoy Morgan! And... Your Welcome.

Touch a nerve? Get off your high horse and quit twisting words around. Yeah, my life experiences consist of me sitting around watching Worlds Dumbest Criminals, glad that we have established this as fact. Whats your expertise? Secretary at the jail?

Again, nobody is happy that a cop is dead. There are few things that happen in this country that dissapoint/anger Americans more. However, that does not mean we should not ask questions when it happens. Of course the hope is, by questioning what went wrong, we can figure out how to avoid similiar circumstances down the road.

I'm not SnS
Had me fooled

[lil red jeep]

Touch a nerve?

Sure it touches a nerve when someone you know and work with gets killed in the line of duty. My problem with your stand in this is simply that in this thread and many others, you jump in and just start antagonizing people trying to stir up crap. You really have no first hand knowlege in this case but act like you are an expert in it. As for my secretarial skills in the jail.... :rolleyes: Come visit there sometime and I'll show you my secretarial skills. You'd be no different than Frederick himself. SCARED!

[J_Lannon]

I don't ever recall you posting a thread quite as attacking as this one. Also, quite misinformed. For someone as intelligent as you are John, this wasn't your best post. Seems like you are thrying to bait a response. Not this time. If there is a problem with me, perhaps you might want to take it to p.m.'s where we can exchange phone numbers and discuss this away from here.



Nahhh............ Not trying to provoke or be overly cynical. But I stand by the overall point. Suffolk/Ches/Ports are all full of gangs, crack dealers, and wanted murderers.

And they want to do a swat type take down on a casual pot user? Pffft.

Did they even think about knocking? The kid lives in a crappy neighborhood and was scared shitless.

My opinion is that the kid should be walking free today. Come tearing through any door of my house, and see if you leave with all your body parts.

This case was a joke.

I love what cops do for us every day, but they had the dumbshits on this one.

[sudshunter]

Like I said there in NO way in hell that he did not know that the police were at his door. He would have to be severly hearing impared or had the stereo blaring. Let's not forget it was a SWAT team making the entry to his house. They deploy flash bangs, and announce themselves before making entry by raming your door. NOW.....if they, the police did not do that, then it was a very stupid move. The reason why you do this is so that your people don't get shot. As for the Horn incident, that was totally different. He confronted two men that robbed his neighbors residence. They confronted him, he (Horn) produced a shot gun and the two men turned and ran away. They were unarmed and were shot in the back, THAT'S were that situation went wrong. Sadly in that incident the grand jury decided not to indict Mr. Horn. I am all for castle doctrine law. You have the right to defend yourself and your property, your business and in the state of Texas your neighbor's residence. The problem that you have with that is the two men, unarmed were shot in the back while running away. It doesn't matter that they didn't have their green cards, or that they were part of a burglary ring operating in the area. You don't have the right to shoot two unarmed men in the back. Had Mr. Horn shot the two men when they initially confronted him there any hooplah to this story.it just seems funny that none of the neighbors heard anything either , hell one of them was outside on the porch 2 door down and didnt hear anything til the ambulance came. the neighbor right next door didnt hear anything and said his dog barks at all sounds and never got off his bed. I for one am sorry anybody lost thier life but I dont think they did a very good investigating. hell if hes growing a lil pot for personal use leave him alone thats a waste of tax dollars ! pot should have been legalized years ago , there probably wouldnt be a deficet like there is now, leagleize it ,tax it and go after the real criminals not a pot head

[jay b]

by the way darin. i've met a buncha guys on here, i doubt 99% of them are gettin any. :D:D

Neil I don't care what you say I'm in the 1% :p

[NTKG]

[QUOTE=J_Lannon;475860]

My opinion is that the kid should be walking free today. Come tearing through any door of my house, and see if you leave with all your body parts.
QUOTE]



well you'd be just like that that kid. sitting in lockup making new friends.

[NTKG]

Neil I don't care what you say I'm in the 1% :p

ha! well i could believe that. cause we all know shooter, al, jeff, teo and the rest of them aint gettin any.

[Shooter]

ha! well i could believe that. cause we all know shooter, al, jeff, teo and the rest of them aint gettin any.

See, what little do you know,,, I get all I need :)

(good thing I don't need much anymore) :(

[lil red jeep]

[QUOTE=J_Lannon;475860]

My opinion is that the kid should be walking free today. Come tearing through any door of my house, and see if you leave with all your body parts.
QUOTE]



well you'd be just like that that kid. sitting in lockup making new friends.

Like that line in the movie "Fletch" when Chevy Chase walks in to the jail cell and Tex Cobb looks at him and says "bend over!" :eek: , Fletch comes back with " Hi Ben, nice to meet ya!" :D Cobb replies "No, bend over!":--|

[redneckranger]

Frederick got the Raw end of the deal if anything he should have been convicted of Involuntary Manslaughter(esp if the police messed up which i believe they did). Instead the Judge and Commonwealth's Attorney can sleep at night knowing the put away a cop killer. Everyone else can sleep beacuse they're safety was upheld at the expense of a young man paying for what probably were police mistake. What I forgot this Virginia the Police don't make mistakes they can walk on water!!!

[RuddeDogg]

Yep they did and should have charged with negligent homicide, firing blindly at a shadow, that was smart.

[Southern Man]

Well my take is the guy got railroaded. I would have done the same thing. Here's why, I would expect if the Cops were breaking down my door, they would have broken down the whole door. Now if it were a home invasion I would expect that he would only knock out one panel and try to crawl through.
Those Va. Cops can't even break down a door properly. ( What the hell is up with that) If the guy could have seen the Cop standing he would have probably been able to see it was a Cop. The Cops screwed this up ever way possible, they should everyone of them be fired.

[RuddeDogg]

Well just how do you break down a door properly? There really is not set RULE on how to do it. I my opinion they should have took the door and the door jam with the ram. They chose to do it quietly for what ever reason. But the fact remains ya don't shoot blindly at your target.

[NTKG]

But the fact remains ya don't shoot blindly at your target.


why do people not understand this???? YOU DO NOT SHOOT UNTIL YOU ID your target COUPLED with NO OTHER OPTION.... LAW... it does NOT matter whatever your argument is. PERIOD... if you people on here are really ignorant enough to say that you would shoot at someone without properly IDing the drone and having no other avenue of escape you should sell your guns because your future actions will get mine taken away.

Follow the laws of self defense or sell your guns because you are a threat not only to yourself but to other normal functioning people. Its not push comes to shove, carrying a weapon means you are supposed to have enough brain power to be more resistant to knee jerk reaction. Owning a firearm should require an IQ test. It is a responsibility, not a license to be shadow shooter.

Every response I have seen about do this and that and see what happens crap is making me sick. Do many of you have any idea of ballistics? What happens to bullets after soft targets/ barriers/ etc??? What type of ballistics you have in your own weapons and loads? Ever wonder what that bullet would have impacted if it had missed the officer?

A bullet fired from a weapon cannot be taken back, the LEAST you could do is KNOW EXACTLY what it is your shooting at... but then again half of you seem to be too busy arguing over the law and pot to care... So half of you haven't grown up still and smoke pot, so what this isn't about you smoking pot and feeling like LE shouldn't mess with you. Doesn't bother me, don't care, just do me a favor and try not to shoot at something cuz is scawwwy.
The LEA in question may or may not have made mistakes, shooting without ID ing your target is a mistake no questions about it, if you cannot understand that, go ahead and try it next time you think you hear something and see where you end up. argue all you want lets see how much the public and the justice system care.

[NTKG]

and as a matter of technicality.... your SP-65 form asks if you currently intake any illegal drugs. Answering yes or doing so is a disqualifier for purchasing and owning a firearm. So he should never have been in possession of that firearm. The Commonwealths Atty should go ahead and prosecute for lying on the SP-65 as well.

[RuddeDogg]

Yep, the "I'd rather judged by 12 than carried by 6" mentallity just doesn't cut it anymore.

[surfchunker]

I'd say he ID'ed his target .... somebody bustin down his door ... what you gonna ask him to see his id card ... Oh please stop this assualt and let me see your ID please so I will know whether or not I can defend myself ....

[RuddeDogg]

Like I said, the "I'd rather judged by 12 than carried by 6". He took that chance and lost.

[NTKG]

I'd say he ID'ed his target .... somebody bustin down his door ... what you gonna ask him to see his id card ... Oh please stop this assualt and let me see your ID please so I will know whether or not I can defend myself ....


uh thats called breaking and entering... where has an assault taken place? if you don't know what your talking about, you really should read more about actual case before you speak on it.

[J_Lannon]

uh thats called breaking and entering... where has an assault taken place? if you don't know what your talking about, you really should read more about actual case before you speak on it.


According to the Virginia State laws: A person may only protect his, or another persons physical safety. The person who shoots/hurts another person in self defense must have reasonable belief that the "perp" is intending to hurt that person or another.

You dont see a great big fat grey area in that?

[SGT.Bunghole]

Sorry this turned into a big argument.

[RuddeDogg]

No need to be sorry. It's a volitive issue. There was mistakes made across the board and it cost someone their life. Hell, it could have been a neighbor or a family member that shot and killed. Sadly it was a police officer, but it could have been anybodt just the same. The police screwed up by not doing their job properly and the guy screwed up by shooting at a dark figure.

[NTKG]

According to the Virginia State laws: A person may only protect his, or another persons physical safety. The person who shoots/hurts another person in self defense must have reasonable belief that the "perp" is intending to hurt that person or another.

You dont see a great big fat grey area in that?


there is a huge grey area. makes me wish i lived in texas... but unfortunately im not a steer or a .... so...


va state law says that to use or respond with deadly force, that there must be a undoubtable, immediate life threat or immediate and undoubtable imminent risk of serious and permanant injury. A knife, bat, crow bar etc.

In a justified shooting, there must be

1. Intent. the BG must have shown that he is going to kill you/maim you
2. Immediate. BG must be in a position (location) to phyically cause harm immediately. ie, can't be running away, can't be 30yrds away from you etc
3. There is no other possible way to deal with the situation, ie, your upstairs and he's in the bedroom and the only avenue of escape is through him. Your downstairs and you hear something, you have a backdoor, well u have an avenue of escape.

all others are not considered justifiable homicide. I am all for gun rights, private ownership, Ccarry and the right of Americans to defend themselves as the police are reactionary and it is not thier duty to protect my physical life. However, with that right comes the responsiblity to

1. Properly identify the BG and his intention, ie multiple target threat, weapon etc.
2. BG must be in a position where if you dont fire, he will kill or maim you at that point in time.
3. After the above two have been met, that there is NO other option than to discharge your weapon.

the gentleman mentioned did not follow these laws.

He may have been scared, he may have been this or that... But bottom line is stress, emotion, chemicals, darkness(put a surefire on your weapon!) whatever does not in any way negate his responsibilty to follow the law.

If you are involved in a shooting, believe me, the police will disect EVERY detail of the shooting, and you at the least better have followed the above three or your going to jail... and either before or after you will be sued and lose alot if not the majority of your assets.

[ryan511]

www.norml.org



Educate yourself, tell a friend, start the chain of intellectual progression, and shit like this won't happen.


The nuance of what exactly went down is interesting and controversial, but lets remember that if we allowed adults to consume a harmless cannabis plant in their own homes, this stuff wouldn't happen.


Another one of millions fallen victim to the fruitless, racist, fascist drug war. Damn shame.

[NTKG]

www.norml.org



Educate yourself, tell a friend, start the chain of intellectual progression, and shit like this won't happen.


The nuance of what exactly went down is interesting and controversial, but lets remember that if we allowed adults to consume a harmless cannabis plant in their own homes, this stuff wouldn't happen.


Another one of millions fallen victim to the fruitless, racist, fascist drug war. Damn shame.

are you kidding me? I am about over every pot smoker on this board making this a gdamn pot issue. Nobody cares if you smoke pot, this is about a shooting....

[RuddeDogg]

www.norml.org



Educate yourself, tell a friend, start the chain of intellectual progression, and shit like this won't happen.


The nuance of what exactly went down is interesting and controversial, but lets remember that if we allowed adults to consume a harmless cannabis plant in their own homes, this stuff wouldn't happen.


Another one of millions fallen victim to the fruitless, racist, fascist drug war. Damn shame.

"Harmless cannabis", "Fuitless, racist, fascist drug war". Go back to your perfect Utopia dude. That's probably one the most off the wall statements I have ever read on this board and there have been some good ones. What a crock.

[ryan511]

are you kidding me? I am about over every pot smoker on this board making this a gdamn pot issue. Nobody cares if you smoke pot, this is about a shooting....
Right. Which stems from a drug issue...
"Harmless cannabis", "Fuitless, racist, fascist drug war". Go back to your perfect Utopia dude. That's probably one the most off the wall statements I have ever read on this board and there have been some good ones. What a crock.

Please refute anything I said, sir. It's easy to just say "your argument sucks and it made me angry." It's also pointless.

[RuddeDogg]

Not angry at all.

I speak from experience, 20 years of it. Nothing like sending Police, Fire and Rescue units to a serious accident with multiple injuries because someone blew a red light or stop sign because they were high. Or responding to a JAWS of LIFE call and having to cut someone out of their mangled car because of the same thing. I have done both, so NO ONE can tell me that marijuana or ANY other illegal drug is HARMLESS. That statement is just not true.

[TimKan7719]

to my knowledge Canibis or weed or pot or Mary jane or what ever else you wish to refer to it as, has been shown to kill brain cells, killing brain cells makes you stupid, stupid people do well stupid things, stupid things get people killed. As for the guy recklessly shooting his gun and yes shooting your gun through a door or through anything other then your target is reckless IMHO. Your average Citizeen has no real leagle reaso to be shooting through something to hit and kill or mame a target on the otehr side unless they are engaged in illeagle activities, I say they should through the book at the Stupid SOB and burry him under the jail!!!!!!
Tim

[dood]

what about alcohol?

It's legal.

It kills brain cells.

It is certainly not HARMLESS.

Is marijuana more harmful just because it's illegal?

This ain't about pot, it's about a war on drugs.

Would they have tried to bust down his door if he was runnin a nip joint?

They wanted to play war games and practice on someone they thought was a push over.

[ryan511]

Not angry at all.

I speak from experience, 20 years of it. Nothing like sending Police, Fire and Rescue units to a serious accident with multiple injuries because someone blew a red light or stop sign because they were high. Or responding to a JAWS of LIFE call and having to cut someone out of their mangled car because of the same thing. I have done both, so NO ONE can tell me that marijuana or ANY other illegal drug is HARMLESS. That statement is just not true.

That's an argument against operating a motor vehicle in an altered state of consciousness. That has nothing to with the consumption of marijuana in ones own home. I'm arguing that the responsible use of cannabis is harmless to the individual and society at large.

[SGT.Bunghole]

Lrj I hope this didnt prevent you from going to the get together with other people from this site. I mean come on man who in the hell is going to show up at a meet and greet and just break out the hooka or fire one up? Noone i know and i know a lot of people that smoke. That seems like an unreal scenario , besides this whole thread was about people wanting to smoke in the privacy of their own home. Not out in public around a bunch of people. Doing that would be no different than someone bringing a 12 pack out there to the greet, then driving home. Dui- i hope you would arrest them just the same as someone drinking a beer on the beech or park, which i hear some of you guys do regularly. Well in va alcohol is illegal on the beach last time i checked not sure about parks. We want responsible legalization just like alcohol. Regulate and educate, Dont threaten and belittle.

You seem like a good guy from your previous posts and i in know way hold any angst against leo. In fact my neighbor in a norfolk p.o. So go to the greets and maybe ill see you at one of em if i ever get a rod good enough to do some distance casting.

[RuddeDogg]

War on drugs-That's right and they were doing their job which they should have done better. Alcohol can be just as bad and as far as kicking in his door if he had an illeagal still they'd be doing their job as well.

Use in your own home-if that's the chance you want to take, but it is still illeagal.

[NTKG]

[QUOTE=SGT.Bunghole;477517] besides this whole thread was about people wanting to smoke in the privacy of their own home. QUOTE]


NO ITS NOT. Put your JOINT down... this thread is about the ridiculous decision someone made that ended in the loss of life, not about pot.

btw, your argument and 9/10 folks here bs anyway. IF any of you rent it is against your leases to engage in any illegal activity within property that is NOT YOURS.

oh and seriously, start your own thread about pot because this is not it. it belittles how serious of an incident this is by downgrading it to a pot issue.

and belittles yourselves when obviously the literacy rate must be dismal that no seems to be able to stay focused on the topic at hand even though it has been mentioned several times by several different people that this thread has nothing to do with marijuana. Put wesley pipes down and start a new thread.

[ryan511]

War on drugs-That's right and they were doing their job which they should have done better. Alcohol can be just as bad and as far as kicking in his door if he had an illeagal still they'd be doing their job as well.

Use in your own home-if that's the chance you want to take, but it is still illeagal.Yep, I've got no problem with law enforcement officers doing their jobs. We agree on that point. I just dislike the laws.

besides this whole thread was about people wanting to smoke in the privacy of their own home. QUOTE]


NO ITS NOT. Put your JOINT down... this thread is about the ridiculous decision someone made that ended in the loss of life, not about pot.

Well, it's actually pretty elementary deduction skills. The shooting took place, at root, because of a marijuana situation. Naturally, the discourse might take a turn in that direction.



btw, your argument and 9/10 folks here bs anyway. IF any of you rent it is against your leases to engage in any illegal activity within property that is NOT YOURS.
I don't think people are debating or questioning what the law is too much. My sense is that people are interested in discussing what it should be.


oh and seriously, start your own thread about pot because this is not it. it belittles how serious of an incident this is by downgrading it to a pot issue.
See above. Also, marijuana laws are very serious business to a lot of intelligent, thoughtful, well meaning citizens.

and belittles yourselves when obviously the literacy rate must be dismal that no seems to be able to stay focused on the topic at hand even though it has been mentioned several times by several different people that this thread has nothing to do with marijuana. Put wesley pipes down and start a new thread.
I'll let this hilarious bit of irony stand on its own in the name of civility.

You seem very angry and seem to desire personal attacks on a friendly site. I'd suggest a bong rip.

[NTKG]

The beauty behind a pothead's mind is that even using rational and as you stated, elementary deduction, is that all things begin and end with marijuana. It is the alpha and the omega.

Lets use your idea of deduction... SO while he is in fact smoking and in poss of marijuana, he purchased and has poss of a firearm. Which is the issue that is further down from the cause of the raid. Had all the same events taken place, without his poss of a firearm, there would be no loss of life in this particular incident. We can further deduce on and on down the line for why each particular instance occured, case in point that the line does not end with Marijuana. SO by your simple elementary and INCOMPLETE deduction, the shooting did not occur due to marijuana. The shooting would have never taken place if those that were not in legal poss of a firearm were not involved in this scenario. Word on the street is that Wesley Pipe's said that if your going to find a common denominator, if you claim to be able to deduce, u have to understand your looking for the least common denominator.

why debate a law in a manner which is wholly redundant and useless? We all know what steps to take in letting our reps know how we feel on issues. I appreciate your civility in the issue, I honestly do not feel like getting into my personal opinion on the rationale behind the use of marijuana. The smoke from your bong isn't going to kill me, what I am more concerned with is the stray bullet from a home that could injure my family or myself. I feel as though my opinion on marijuana would only deter others from the true nature of this shooting which not only I, but obviously the courts have found to be in violation of VA law. None of us here would think that anything said here would possibly keep anyone from smoking, but maybe it could make someone think about where and how far a bullet fired from thier firearm could go and the consequences behind it.

[mud]

well WOW from reading all the post I have come to a couple conclusions myself..More people on here should use spell check or reread there post before posting including myself. This dude should identify his target before shooting. Doors arent made like they used to be so when the cops hit it a single panel dropped out. Better investigating should have been done. Lots of guys posting on here get way to personal. You guys havent been fishing in toooooo long! The fact is no one wins in this situation neither the cop, his family, the defendant nor his family. All we can do is hope that lots of lessons were learned by all that were involved and all that have cared enough to keep up with the case. My 02 but what do I know as missionary is boring!! For heaven sake GO FISH!!!

[AL_N_VB]

Hmm... guess just like the Michael Phelps issue...

Let's boycott the police
Let's boycott renting appartments
Let's boycott the US judicial system.

Lotsa arguments here....but there is no fine line. Pot vs. Police vs. undercover stake out vs. breaking an entery vs. a nark with a record....

You break the law, you get caught, you get your day in court, you pay for your crime.

[lil red jeep]

Five pages of beating this dead horse? Shouldn't this thing be put to bed by now?

[TimKan7719]

what about alcohol?
It's legal.
It kills brain cells.
It is certainly not HARMLESS.
Is marijuana more harmful just because it's illegal?
This ain't about pot, it's about a war on drugs.
Would they have tried to bust down his door if he was runnin a nip joint?
They wanted to play war games and practice on someone they thought was a push over.
Alcohol if miss used can cause serious problems of Corse but thats mostly due to stupid people to begin with. Weed today is not the weed of the 50's and 60's it is like 200 times more powerful. The Beer and Alcohol of the 50-60's is still the same might have a diffrent name though. If he was running an illeagel Still they sure would have busted down his door. I dont think the cops wanted to play war games, just like those of us in the military we practice everything many many times to get muscle memory. This op just got FUBARed and most guys that bust through doors dont go in under estamating anything they go hard and fast from start to finish.
You want to talk about the war on drugs cool we can make a trip down to south america, afganistan, Africa, Some other countires(including the US) and we can see were it all start and some of the crap drugs fund. Then you and me can come back to the mean streets of Good ol USA and see what kind of damage those very drugs do here, then we can hit the Suburbs and see whats going on there. We will also hit the hospitial and hold some crack babies and see what thats like to be born addicted to something and you havnt had a chance to live life yet. So please lets talk the war on drugs, I will take a cop trying to take this crap off the street VS anyone selling drugs out of their house or hell just using drugs any day of the week and twice on sunday. So if you want to use drug move to a country were is is not illeagle and smoke snort and shoot your heart out.
Tim

[RuddeDogg]

Five pages of beating this dead horse? Shouldn't this thing be put to bed by now?

Yep