stupid question

[Mark55]

been reading up on shock leaders. i understand the rules about what test to use, and the length as far as the length of the pole and down to the reel, what i am slightly confused about is the "5 or 6 wraps around the spool" part. does it mean 5 or 6 turns of the handle, 5 or 6 layers(a layer being a one strand cover of the entire spool), or since possibly a turn of the handle may be more or less(i assume more)than a wrap do i simply watch for 5 or 6 strands of the heavier line to show on the spool? told u it was a stupid question.

[AbuMike]

Rotations on the spool....No question is stupid if ya don't know the answer. That is what the board is for..

[eric]

generally..
i dont use that basicall 5 wraps on spool deal.
i tend to use 1 wrap per foot of rod.
so 12', 12 wraps. 14', 14 etc

[jcreamer]

been reading up on shock leaders. i understand the rules about what test to use, and the length as far as the length of the pole and down to the reel, what i am slightly confused about is the "5 or 6 wraps around the spool" part. does it mean 5 or 6 turns of the handle, 5 or 6 layers(a layer being a one strand cover of the entire spool), or since possibly a turn of the handle may be more or less(i assume more)than a wrap do i simply watch for 5 or 6 strands of the heavier line to show on the spool? told u it was a stupid question.

I use five to ten wraps and I agree if you need information then no question is stupid.

JC

[basstardo]

I do the same thing Ooric does, but with slightly fewer wraps. I like having some extra shock on there as a buffer so I can snip off frayed line without worrying about not having enough wraps on the spool.

[blakester]

8 TO 10 Wraps for pier, 2 to 4 wraps for beach. I consider a wrap to be 1 single strand of line going all the way around the reel. So if you have 10 you should be able to count 10 induvidual strands of line around the reel. Am I making any since at all Terry?

[basstardo]

Yup. ;)

[fairwxflyer]

I buy 100 yard spools of 100# Power Pro. I cut 10 yard sections and use a section for a shock leader. I get quite a few wraps around the reel with a 12' rod. It works out well for having to always snip the length from knots, frays, etc.

[Charlie2]

First; the only stupid question is the one unasked. We all have some area of ignorance. I have many, and still asking.

Five turns around the spool is sufficient. IMHE. C2

[Excalibur]

Ouch -- one of the main reasons for shock leader is for the stretch in the mono to absorb the 'shock' of the cast.

Another benefit is being able to hand-line a fish in the wash.

50 lb mono for me.

[9 rock]

I buy 100 yard spools of 100# Power Pro. I cut 10 yard sections and use a section for a shock leader. I get quite a few wraps around the reel with a 12' rod. It works out well for having to always snip the length from knots, frays, etc.

100# ? I dont even use that on my heavy striper trolling gear .
what are you fishing for I know some of the tog guys like heavy line to pull the tog out of the rocks . my surf gear is 17mono 30-50 mono shock

9rock

[SALTSHAKER]

I agree with Ecaliber with the handlineing in the surf with the fish. I am not sure, but I either saw or read somewhere that excessive wraps of shock leader can take away distance in the cast, (does not effect my output LOL) but usually go for five to six around the spool.. salt

[fairwxflyer]

100# ? I dont even use that on my heavy striper trolling gear .
what are you fishing for I know some of the tog guys like heavy line to pull the tog out of the rocks . my surf gear is 17mono 30-50 mono shock

9rock

Its my sharking setup. A good pair of gloves and 10' of weedeater leader is all I need to handle the fish in the wash. Guess I should have been specific on what it was for. My light surf gear is 14# mono with 50# mono shock.

Dont under estimate braid's capabilty as a casting leader. Furthermore, tying a knot from 50# braid to heavy mono used with sharking gear is not an enjoyable thing for me. I get a good knot connection with the braid and I have never snapped a line on a power cast slinging 8 and bait.

I got the braid cast leader idea from the Sarge who posts on here. Its his exact setup and I dont think there is anyone Id rather listen to about casting than him.

[9 rock]

Its my sharking setup. A good pair of gloves and 10' of weedeater leader is all I need to handle the fish in the wash. Guess I should have been specific on what it was for. My light surf gear is 14# mono with 50# mono shock.

Dont under estimate braid's capabilty as a casting leader. Furthermore, tying a knot from 50# braid to heavy mono used with sharking gear is not an enjoyable thing for me. I get a good knot connection with the braid and I have never snapped a line on a power cast slinging 8 and bait.

I got the braid cast leader idea from the Sarge who posts on here. Its his exact setup and I dont think there is anyone Id rather listen to about casting than him.


"I got the braid cast leader idea from the Sarge who posts on here. Its his exact setup and I dont think there is anyone Id rather listen to about casting than him."

thats good advice
I would never argue with sarge:D


9rock

[surfchunker]

I don't think I would want to hand line in a big shark with braid ... leather gloves would be required I'm sure ....

Standard for me .... 60 lb shock leader mono/flouro and 4-6 wraps ... any more will start to cut down on distance and I need all I can get and that still leaves me a good bit to use for retieing .... min. is 2 wraps before cutting it off and replacing it ...

[rattler]

I buy 100 yard spools of 100# Power Pro. I cut 10 yard sections and use a section for a shock leader. I get quite a few wraps around the reel with a 12' rod. It works out well for having to always snip the length from knots, frays, etc.
Braid kills the whole idea of "shock leader"
I don't think I would want to hand line in a big shark with braid ... leather gloves would be required I'm sure ....
even leather gloves will wear out. Just get saltwater on them. lol
Standard for me .... 60 lb shock leader mono/flouro and 4-6 wraps ... any more will start to cut down on distance and I need all I can get and that still leaves me a good bit to use for retieing .... min. is 2 wraps before cutting it off and replacing it ...

I use #60 for 8&bait. Most of the time I use #4-5 around va. beach. #30-40 is fine. I'm not trying to get a broom handle to load with liter weight. I use a liter rod. May have a sale soon. I have many.

[fairwxflyer]

Braid kills the whole idea of "shock leader"


I use #60 for 8&bait. Most of the time I use #4-5 around va. beach. #30-40 is fine. I'm not trying to get a broom handle to load with liter weight. I use a liter rod. May have a sale soon. I have many.

This topic can be beaten to death so Im not even gonna start arguing about what " shock leader" or " casting leader" may, or may not be.

Braid really doesn't "kill" the whole idea of a shock leader. Im not going to pretend my name is Quint and say Im an expert, cause Im not. I learn new things here everyday. Point being, the sheer strength of 100# braid will withstand any amount of force required to heave 10+ ounces of weight and bait. I could care less if it stretches or not. Until I break one off(which has never happened with many, many casts) I'll be a believer that there is no downfall in using braid as a "casting leader". And, like previously said, braid may not be good for handling fish in the wash, but with 10' of heavy weedeater line and gloves, I've got all the leader I need to grab. I think some are forgetting that I mentioned that this was my shark setup only.

This is a post from Sgt. Slough. Maybe it will shed some insight:

Well, I would like to understand the "NO BRAID SHOCKER" rule and why some anglers hold it with such vigor.

I don't want to hear arguments about braid being no good at the Point or you can't drag a fish on the beach or it cuts your finger . . . Those issues are easily remedied; I want to center this discussion on just the physics of the rod, line and sinker.

Here's my position:

I am of the mind that the term "shock leader" is a misnomer; in a properly executed high energy cast there is no "shock" per-se, the power is a smooth progression.

IMO, the requirement of a heavier leader for casting is just to resist the centrifugal force of the sinker; a 5oz weight swinging on a 20+ foot radius at 180 mph "weighs" 50+ lbs.

I use braid running line on all my distance set-ups (spinning) and I use a braid casting leader. I have used that braid combo for well over 10 years now and have never had a problem with rod failure. (With my conversion to Fuji Lowrider guides I really don't know how you would use a mono casting leader anyways.)

My position is that the rod is an incredible absorber of energy . . . The thought that one must rely on a heavy length of mono to "protect" the rod from the "shock" of the cast seems nonsensical to me.

As I see it, my job is to impart as much controlled and progressively building energy as I can to the rod. The rod's job is to transfer that energy to the sinker. Placing a component between the rod and the sinker that saps energy and defeats the full and complete transfer of my imparted energy to the sinker just doesn't make any sense to me . . .

So the question is; does a rod really need a "shock absorber" between it and the sinker?

To me it's like telling someone they need to run 10lbs of air in ther tires to "protect" the car's springs . . . sure, it gives a smoother ride but ya ain't getting top perfomance.

So, for me, I don't use a "shock leader" because in my cast there is no " shock;" I use a casting leader.

[eric]

the shock leader isnt to prevent damage to the rod... its not a shock absorber
hell. ill be happy if i can get technique to the point where i break my rod on cast.

its to protect people around you dood.. in case you snap off.
i would not sling 5oz attached to 15# since itll snap like a twig.. POP!
which is why we used 40#+ lines , so it wont break and hurl a sinker into someones face.

ive used up to 80# for leaders. and when distance casting, i can occassionally snap the leader while still holding the spool.
youll watch the lead + leader.. fly into a far far distance land.

[NTKG]

ok lets try this...

shock leader is for saftey. of yourself and others around you. if you don't care about your own, fine... but for the sake of those around you, use one if your throwing heavier weights.

braid is PLENTY strong enough... BUT braid is not suitable for two main reasons...

1. Braid is not abrasion resistant. I would much rather have a 40lb mono leader than a 100lb braid leader. Keep in mind excluding the bar the shock is the part of your line getting beat up by sand and the fish during a fight.

2. Braid is not "shock" absorbant. Meaning.... tie thirty lb braid with a terminal knot. tie thirty pound mono with the same terminal knot. yank on them with gloves on. not pull steady, but yank. the braid will break with much less effort. There is a reason why most fisherman, even bass fisherman will use a leader on their superlines.


3. you want a shock you can grab(this is more of a 2 plus). I would hate to be on a bar in 3ft of water and have a 3-4ft spiny on and try and leader braid. Wet hands + braid = bandaids

[fairwxflyer]

the shock leader isnt to prevent damage to the rod... its not a shock absorber
hell. ill be happy if i can get technique to the point where i break my rod on cast.

its to protect people around you dood.. in case you snap off.
i would not sling 5oz attached to 15# since itll snap like a twig.. POP!
which is why we used 40#+ lines , so it wont break and hurl a sinker into someones face.

ive used up to 80# for leaders. and when distance casting, i can occassionally snap the leader while still holding the spool.
youll watch the lead + leader.. fly into a far far distance lan
d.

I think its been established that the point is to prevent a snap off. We all know that. But you telling me that 5oz wont cut it with 15# line is totally missing my point saying I use 100# to throw 8 and bait. Simply 10x10.
The point of Sgt's post wasnt to talk about rod failure per se during casting. That was a response to another question about a rod breaking during cast.
His, and my point is, the purpose of the leader is to resist the centrifugal force of the sinker(i.e. BREAKOFF) if the weight is moving faster, the force applied to it is stronger, hence a strong casting leader to counteract the forces on the weight. It makes no difference in the world what the leader is made out of, braid or mono.

[fairwxflyer]

ok lets try this...

shock leader is for saftey. of yourself and others around you. if you don't care about your own, fine... but for the sake of those around you, use one if your throwing heavier weights.

braid is PLENTY strong enough... BUT braid is not suitable for two main reasons...

1. Braid is not abrasion resistant. I would much rather have a 40lb mono leader than a 100lb braid leader. Keep in mind excluding the bar the shock is the part of your line getting beat up by sand and the fish during a fight.

2. Braid is not "shock" absorbant. Meaning.... tie thirty lb braid with a terminal knot. tie thirty pound mono with the same terminal knot. yank on them with gloves on. not pull steady, but yank. the braid will break with much less effort. There is a reason why most fisherman, even bass fisherman will use a leader on their superlines.


3. you want a shock you can grab(this is more of a 2 plus). I would hate to be on a bar in 3ft of water and have a 3-4ft spiny on and try and leader braid. Wet hands + braid = bandaids

Im not debating the safety issue. I think thats very apparent. Why would I use 100# cast leader if I wasnt concerned with safety. Please show me in these posts where I stated that I dont use a shock leader. Or is because I said "braid" and that equals "not a shock leader to some" I want someone to give me 1 good reason why they think braid is no good as a shock. Not about abrasion, stretch, handling it to leader a fish or whatever else.

My retorts NTKG:

1. Braid is very abrasion resistant. Thats the point of it. Ive beat the hell out of braid and mono over bars and the mono always comes out worse. Its plastic. Im sure you've fished braid around a pier and got hung up. Pretty difficult, if not impossible to break off. Ive had sharks roll on heavy mono and sandpaper it off in a second. Very, very rarely does that happen with braid.

2. Ive had very few knot failures with braid. I went to it cause IMO, the knots are better and smaller. They need retied often, big deal. Any knot Ive tied with braid to mono has failed at the mono. Why? Because the braid cuts into the mono. Abrasion resistant?

3. Ive already explained about leader sizes and gloves when I shark. Non issue.

Ok enough picking on the dumb, landlocked yankee surf fishing wannabe.
I could care less who uses what as a shock as long they use one. Everyone has and does what works best for him and her, so lets just go fish and have fun doing it.

[NTKG]

Im not debating the safety issue. I think thats very apparent. Why would I use 100# cast leader if I wasnt concerned with safety. Please show me in these posts where I stated that I dont use a shock leader. Or is because I said "braid" and that equals "not a shock leader to some" I want someone to give me 1 good reason why they think braid is no good as a shock. Not about abrasion, stretch, handling it to leader a fish or whatever else.

My retorts NTKG:

1. Braid is very abrasion resistant. Thats the point of it. Ive beat the hell out of braid and mono over bars and the mono always comes out worse. Its plastic. Im sure you've fished braid around a pier and got hung up. Pretty difficult, if not impossible to break off. Ive had sharks roll on heavy mono and sandpaper it off in a second. Very, very rarely does that happen with braid.

2. Ive had very few knot failures with braid. I went to it cause IMO, the knots are better and smaller. They need retied often, big deal. Any knot Ive tied with braid to mono has failed at the mono. Why? Because the braid cuts into the mono. Abrasion resistant?

3. Ive already explained about leader sizes and gloves when I shark. Non issue.

Ok enough picking on the dumb, landlocked yankee surf fishing wannabe.
I could care less who uses what as a shock as long they use one. Everyone has and does what works best for him and her, so lets just go fish and have fun doing it.

of course, these are JMHO. the shock resistance of braid terminal knots is not an arguable thing. when we throw 2oz jigheads, we use 30lb braid down here against bridge pilings. when i get hung up on braid alone i can break it off, when i have a leader its much more difficult. when I am in the yak and get hung up with 20lb braid flounder fishing, i can pop off easily, with a leader again especially in a kayak much more difficult.

there is a video floating around of a tackle shop doing a test on braid and mono. its a good video as far as this point, im trying to locate it now.

[NTKG]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-SqIsZaE6s&feature=related

[fairwxflyer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-SqIsZaE6s&feature=related

So essentially hes saying braid is more abrasion resistant than mono. I cant speak as to why he had issues with PP and not the others, but does it matter? I have never had an issue with PP or Suffix and know plenty of guys who havent either. Maybe one day I will, I dont know. It is possible to get a bad spool of braid, particularly PP, but thats becoming more and more sporadic now. Im sure he wasnt using 100# test either. Good video though. Thanks.

My previous posts weren't meant to come off as bold in anyway, but I have to defend myself. I still would like to know where it says I dont use a shock leader, though!

[justinstewart]

I agree w/ fairwxflyer. Braid is fine as a "shock leader." I've been playing around with 150lb braid, tied to 65lb, on a casting reel. Throwing 8oz as hard as I can OTG, I haven't had a snap off yet.

[fairwxflyer]

I agree w/ fairwxflyer. Braid is fine as a "shock leader." I've been playing around with 150lb braid, tied to 65lb, on a casting reel. Throwing 8oz as hard as I can OTG, I haven't had a snap off yet.

Ahh! Much needed help! I'm gettin' beat up here.

[eric]

Ok enough picking on the dumb, landlocked yankee surf fishing wannabe.


okay.. am i the only one who would find that comment offensive?
i hope that isnt directed toward anyone here.

[fairwxflyer]

okay.. am i the only one who would find that comment offensive?
i hope that isnt directed toward anyone here.

Come on man, read the post! It was directed towards myself. As to say jokingly " stop picking on me for using braid".

I see you're from NYC. Why would I make a comment like that towards you when I'm in Pittsburgh? Better yet, why would I make a comment like that to anyone on here?

I think this thread is getting a bit out of hand now. We all agree to disagree on each of our own methods. They may work for some and may not work or be liked by others. Bottom line is we all end up with the same conclusion. Catching fish. Im on here to learn everything I can. Everyone can learn new ways no matter how experienced you think you are. But we all have a bit of ego when it comes to our methods and we like to defend them. I, in no way, mean to disrespect anyone, and I would expect the same from anyone else on here. Saying Im unsafe for using 100# braid cast leader is absurd to me. Of course Im gonna state my opinions.

[surfchunker]

nope not offended here ... you were picking on yourself ...... hey you know yourself better than I do .... lol

[9 rock]

So essentially hes saying braid is more abrasion resistant than mono. I cant speak as to why he had issues with PP and not the others, but does it matter? I have never had an issue with PP or Suffix and know plenty of guys who havent either. Maybe one day I will, I dont know. It is possible to get a bad spool of braid, particularly PP, but thats becoming more and more sporadic now. Im sure he wasnt using 100# test either. Good video though. Thanks.

My previous posts weren't meant to come off as bold in anyway, but I have to defend myself. I still would like to know where it says I dont use a shock leader, though!

that not what he is saying he is saying no question mono is better in the rocks and any jetty guy knows that it is no secret.

second back to the casting the most presure on the line is right before release in a smooth cast when the rod is not absorbing the load and is transfered to the spool or finger for spining tackle this would explain some of tommy farmers 1000 ft snap offs moveing on to knots there is a reason why you need twice as many loops in braid than in mono .because it slips. and forget the part of the braid cutting the mono I put a 65# braid shock on one of my reels 4 yrs ago caught many small sharks skates and blues and it is was still intact when I gave the set up away last year.
now to the rod if yes the rod is a shock absorber but fighting a fish in the surf is where it is under max load a large fish that turns quickly is where the mono shock can save the fish and or the rod and yes you can let the air out of the tires and get better performance for the info. and there is no question at least in my mind it is easier to hand line a fish in with mono

I see no advantage of braid shock exept the fact that it passes thru the eyes better IMHO


9

[fairwxflyer]

that not what he is saying he is saying no question mono is better in the rocks and any jetty guy knows that it is no secret.

second back to the casting the most presure on the line is right before release in a smooth cast when the rod is not absorbing the load and is transfered to the spool or finger for spining tackle this would explain some of tommy farmers 1000 ft snap offs moveing on to knots there is a reason why you need twice as many loops in braid than in mono .because it slips. and forget the part of the braid cutting the mono I put a 65# braid shock on one of my reels 4 yrs ago caught many small sharks skates and blues and it is was still intact when I gave the set up away last year.
now to the rod if yes the rod is a shock absorber but fighting a fish in the surf is where it is under max load a large fish that turns quickly is where the mono shock can save the fish and or the rod and yes you can let the air out of the tires and get better performance for the info. and there is no question at least in my mind it is easier to hand line a fish in with mono

I see no advantage of braid shock exept the fact that it passes thru the eyes better IMHO


9

Yeah you are right, I watched it kinda in a hurry the first time. Its no secret that mono is better around rock pilings and jettys. When Im around rocks or piers, Ill take your word why braid is useless.
And again, I dont handle braid when leadering a shark. I have 10 to 15' of weedeater leader in front of the braid to take care of that.
Braid knots do slip. I know that. I check them after every fight. Most need retied. Its not that bigga deal to me. I like your point about fighting the fish in the surf and the stretch in the mono in case of a whip, Again, thats one of the points of such a long leader(along with biteoffs, tailwhips, and body rolls)

I just want someone to give me clearcut eveidence why they feel braid casting leader is "unsafe" or "useless" or "just doesnt work".

[Mark55]

geez guys i just asked a simple stupid question!!!!

[eric]

ooeric <- idiot.. haha :redface:
ya i figured it out you were talking about yourself when i was on break and reading this again.

[fairwxflyer]

ooeric <- idiot.. haha :redface:
ya i figured it out you were talking about yourself when i was on break and reading this again.

No worries, mate! Maybe we should return this thread to the rightful owner.
Sorry mark55. Im sure you're more confused now than when you started the thread. The hijack is officially over for me!!!

[surfchunker]

you'll find out there is no simple answers here ... lots of answers but it's up to you to filter out what relates to you .... keep on asking

[brandonmc]

I do most of my fishing from a pier. I like a braid shock leader (casting leader, what ever you want to call it) to keep from getting cut off on the pylons. I also use 150 or 200lb PP for the simple reasons that it lasts a long time and the knots are much smaller. I have never, not once, had a breakoff on the braid leader on a cast.....I also love it for top shots on a fighting rod. The biggest king I ever caught would have been a goner were it not for good old 200lb Power Pro!

[9 rock]

I do most of my fishing from a pier. I like a braid shock leader (casting leader, what ever you want to call it) to keep from getting cut off on the pylons. I also use 150 or 200lb PP for the simple reasons that it lasts a long time and the knots are much smaller. I have never, not once, had a breakoff on the braid leader on a cast.....I also love it for top shots on a fighting rod. The biggest king I ever caught would have been a goner were it not for good old 200lb Power Pro!

I would hope not using 200lb:)



9

[brandonmc]

200lb, absolutely. It ties tighter, smaller knots than 50lb mono and is virtually pylon proof.

[KConrad]

OK, time for my own "stupid question";

brandonmc, you say you fish mostly from the pier and your using 150lb - 200lb braid. What do you do when you get snagged, tangled or tied up in the pilings?

Snaggs and tangles may not be as big an issue here as it is in San Diego.. but there... the waves constantly pound your lines into the pilings (or the surfers drag you there), the kelp gets tangled, or the piers are so crowded when you do get a fish on you very frequently get tangled in other lines...

I guess to make a long point short.. Unless your one hell of a bigger guy than I am your not going to snap 200# braid off at the knot(or unless your knot is rather lacking) in the event of a snag/tangle so you'll have to cut it... which would mean half your spool lost... and half your spool floating around in the water for others to eventually get tangled in.

[Big Rad]

As his casting leader. It says in his post "I like a braid shock leader (casting leader, what ever you want to call it) to keep from getting cut off on the pylons. I also use 150 or 200lb PP for the simple reasons that it lasts a long time and the knots are much smaller.". That means he is not spooling his whole reel with it

[brandonmc]

Big Rad is correct. My light duty shark/drum rods are spooled with 20lb Tritanium. My king rod is spooled with 65lb PP. I use the heavy PP to keep from breaking off the fish on the pylons, I've never had line tangle on the pylons without help from a fish.

[Mark G]

geez guys i just asked a simple stupid question!!!!

I think it has been answered but a "wrap" is a single coil of line around the spool, so 5 wraps would be 5 coils, etc.

Nothing wrong with the question, it simplifies things to talk about wraps around the spool rather than "turns" of the reel handle, because of the different retrieve ratios, one crank of the handle on one reel could be a much different amount of shock leader than a reel that had a much higer or lower gear ratio, which is why to keep things straight we talk about the number of "wraps" around the spool, not turns of the handle.

For the record distant competitions require a minimum of 7 wraps(coils) of line around the spool. I'll use anywhere from 5 to 10 wraps when fishing.