Politics (forewarning anyone who doesn't want to read)

[firstmatefluff]

Here's something I don't necessarily understand, and if anyone has input (reasonable and intelligent, rather than just name-calling) I'd love to hear it: This board is for fishermen. Presumably, fishermen sometimes eat what they catch, or would at least like to have the option....

Now, as concerned fishermen, how many of you plan to support "Dubya," when he's been the biggest whore for industry and the worst environmentalist in US Presidential history? He actually had industry lobbyists help create environmental guidelines....sort of like inviting pedophiles to set up a neighborhood watch

I support the Second Amendment myself, and admit freely that the 2nd Amendment is where Democrats have long since dropped the ball in rural areas, including most of Wisconsin (my home), but I vote on a "big picture"........Bush is the guy who decided to strip Clinton-Era mercury reduction plans, which would have called for a 90% reduction in mercury over the next 5 or 10 years, supports offshore drilling wherever, has taken us backwards on runoff protections and raped the Clean Water Act........(by the way, the mercury and PCB issues are real, believe me, I'm a scientist and worked with individuals studying both.)

I just don't understand.....I'm not exactly "excited" about Kerry, but as a fisherman, hunter, and just a guy who prefers the outdoors unlogged, unpaved, and clean enough I don't have to wear a HazMat suit to go hiking, I don't get the support for George I see in Southern Fishermen......just my 2 cents.

Mark

[bluerunner]

i wonder about the same thing.

[reddog1]

In my opinion I think it is wrong to put the blame of mercury in fish and wildlife solely on the US. There could be the toughest regulations you want here in the US but toxic fumes from China's buring of coal, where regulations are next to none, will continue to rain down around the world. The US burns far less coal, on a percentage basis than other countries. Oil and natural gas contain far less mercury or other heavy metals than coal.

[J_Lannon]

Bush was handed a faulty EPA standard when he got into office. Much of the information attributed to the current lead and mercury standards were from radicals. Bush wanted a new study done to make sure we were not cutting off the feet of various industries around the US.

The jury is still out as to what a safe level is for these two pollutants. In my mind a zero level is the safe way, but also unobtainable.

I'll take todays enviroment over 30 years ago anyday. Many rivers around the country are coming back. I hope 30 years from now, our grand children see things even better still.

As far as your Bush being a whore for the industries, you are way out of line. Go take a serious look at the panel regarding the issue. Some of the most respect scientists in the world are on it. The names do not look like a bunch of lobbiests to me.

The main point is, that todays people are more in tuned to the enviroment. As a result , you get alot of different ideas on whats right and whats wrong for the enviroment.

There has to be a balance of the economy and nature in hand before you just go cutting the heads off major industries.

Everyone was attacking the president over lost jobs. But everyone knows the . COMS fell out favor prior to his taking the white house in 2000.
We were already in this so called recession that everones whining about. If he were to hold that current EPA standard, many of our chemical industries would already be gone for ever.

When you make laws regarding EPA standards, there need to be a certain grace period. The laws Bush struck down were done so for that reason.

[firstmatefluff]

Perhaps neither of you care to hear this, but first off, we put mercury in our waters long before China even began, and the vast majority of our mercury here is still homegrown.

As far as respected scientists, the Bush administration has a long and "distinguished" record of screening scientists beforehand to "pack" their panels, and also canning those who do not agree........there is a reason why so many Nobel winners and general scientists have signed onto several open letters published in the Wall Street Journal and elsewhere complaining about the President's disregard (or selectivity at best) for scientific data and his tendency to favor ideology over hard research and facts.

I am a scientist, beleive me, very few actual scientists are voting for Bush, for these very reasons......

[firstmatefluff]

The standards Bush was handed were from Radicals?

The wild and crazy bunch over at the National Institutes of Health, or those crazy punks the Environmental Protection Agency hires?

The new standards Bush decided to scrap (since we as public taxpayers don't line his pockets as well as Ken Lay and Big Industry) were based on valid scientific studies, and the (I admit, somewhat radical and crazy) assumption that we might try to do everything possible to protect our waterways and unborn children, who are phenomenally sensitive to mercury.

By the way, there's another interesting thing about Bush, he's anti-abortion, but apparently his concern ends at the life of the fetus, not protecting its health. Of course, everyone knows, a fetus can't write a $5,000 check, or set up a PAC for George.......

Bottom line is, what qualifications do you claim to bring to the table that let you view the old standards as a farce--I got a PhD from a Toxicology department, worked in a cancer lab, worked with a guy who studied heavy metal disposition and toxicology, and have written both scientific papers and grants which received Federal Funding.......I have some experience analyzing data, and the stuff from elsewhere is much more sound than the stuff Dubya selects from his camp.

[Orest]

http://www.alternet.org/story/19683/

The trading of pollution rights. It saves money, what about just cleaning up the air and the environment. It all boils down to the almighty dollar.

[firstmatefluff]

Orest, you are right--there was a plan for a 90% reduction in mercury, everywhere, within 5 or 10 years (not sure which, this early in the AM). Bush scrapped it in favor of a 70% reduction, over 30 years--three times as long, and three times as much pollution still left over--good to see the Prez. is supposed to be protecting us from terrorists, he sure as He#l isn't protecting us from pollutants and the Industry he whores for.

As far as the caps, the problem there was mentioned that depending on the area weather patterns, 80-90% of the pollution may fall within a few hundred miles of a facility. That means plants that purchase credits won't have to clean up at all, and area towns, streams, and lakes will see virtually no benefit. I know its crazy, but maybe we should try to clean up ALL the waterways, and actually try HARD...of course, I don't know that Cheney's energy task force would support that, but maybe if it had some scientists and public advocates, instead of CEOs and lobbyists

[reddog1]

Firstmate,
Point taken the almighty dollar rules again. The amount of money that it costs to retrofit plants with mercury reducing equipment is more than the industry wants to spend. The cost would just be passed on to the consumer anyway and I am sure people would not be too happy.

I just have one thing to say. Go nuclear. No emissions and considerable more efficient.

[jay b]

Matey, you sound strikingly similar to most of the so-called JFK supporters, so quick to point out the faults of our current POTUS but the answer to all the "problems" is missing as usual.

What is Kerry's stance on the issue and will Mr. flip-flop stick with it or mearly change his mind in a couple years as he seems to do with every other issue. I understand your concerns about the pollution issue but that is just one item on a large list of things to consider when choosing a candidate, which BTW there is realisticly only one other choice, and I'd never vote for him for too many reasons to discuss here.

So even though "Dubya" may not be the best Environmental candidate he'll still get my vote.

[firstmatefluff]

jay b., I understand your lack of enthusiasm for Kerry, but I find it difficult to imagine him being worse for the environment than Bush, especially ina second term where george didn't have to worry about re-election.

I also agree about there being lots of issues, but admittedly, lots of folks vote primarily on the gun issue, and if that is because they consider themselves sportsmen, I just wondered how they reconcile themselves with george and his environmental record.

Lastly, you are right, there are lots of issues. I disagree with the prez. about the Iraq war, stem-cell research, his tendency to favor corporate interests over actual voters, his blind and arrogant stupidity.......I am not just basing my vote for Kerry on the environment, but it is a concern, for myself and everyone else who fishes.

Maybe, if I was rich, I'd vote for George--the very rich are the only ones he really tries to represent anyway

[reddog1]

I am voting for Bush primarily because he is a strong and decisive leader. Two qualities that Kerry lacks considerably.
On the rich subject, Bush gave more back to low income people than people give him credit for and home ownership is at an all time high.

[pensfan]

I would never refer to " dubya" as decisive. I'd be willing to bet his wife lays out his clothes for him. I think it's pretty obvious that Uncle Dick is runnin the show.

[firstmatefluff]

I gotta agree with Pensfan--Cheney may be strong and decisive (arrogant and pig-headed is more my take), but I think george can barely spell either, and lets his "smart guys" run the show for him......he looks like a deer in headlights when somwone asks him a difficult or critical and apparently unanticipated question.

Flat out, I think george is a moron and Cheney (who is slightly smarter, but blinded anyway by ideology and greed and arrogance) runs the show for him. Neither will get my vote, and I strongly disagree that dubya has made our country any safer--so far, Bin Laden killed 3,000 Americans at the Trade Center and george killed over 1,000, so 1/3 as many, in Iraq for no legitimate reason--at least Bin Laden was supposed to be a danger to us--george was just stupid and convinced he could "finish his daddy's war".

[shaggy]

And to quote another poster..."but I think george can barely spell either, and lets his "smart guys" run the show for him......he looks like a deer in headlights when somwone"

Let's face facts, for the most, the media is pro democrats and anti republican, thus, little to no bad comments about Kerry/Edwards (and Edwards is one of the many, in medical litigation and malpractice to make his riches, while driving up the cost of healthcare and malpractice insurance (which many democrats feel, medical insurance is a right, and if one cannot afford, other citizens of the US will "take care of them". Also, how many Americans were killed at Pearl Harbor? How many MORE died in the resulting conflict? Why exactly did JFK decide on the Bay of Pigs? How many Americans did Castro kill? How many soldiers died as a result of the BoP? Why were we in South Korea? Don't remember a link to any North Korea terrorism killing Americans? How many soldiers died there, and why are we still there?

If the press is not biased, why did rather and cbs air a fabricated story, as the kerry campaing was losing in the polls? Quick to judge President Bush and other Rebublicans, so quick as to not check facts and tell a TRUE story, but it's amazing how very little, if any negative cbs coverage has been place the democrats way.

I am sorry for the thousand soldiers that have lost their lives to protect yours and my freedom, and it must be working a little, because last I heard, the last terrorist attact (other than in a war zone of Iraq) was in September 2001. Clinton had attacks and gave no response, opening the door for more attacks, and hence attacks right here at home. Trade center the first time, Oklahoma city.. the list goes on. Economy shot as clinton's term ending, irrational exhuberence, corporate scandals and cover ups flourished, hillary's inside trading scandal, whitewater... I don't really know if ther is an honest politician, but I'll pick Bush who has stood his ground through all as to kerry who has pretty much flipped, flopped and if neccessary, flipped back on positions to gain support. Independent, leaning Republican.

[pensfan]

You're absolutely right FirstMate, I truly believe that the only reason we are in Iraq is so that "dubya" can finish what daddy started. We have a thousand dead, for what?!! Granted Sadaam was a pain in the ass, but removing him wasn't worth one american life. This guy didn't have the ability to pose a danger to anyone but his own people. If "dubya" were'nt so damn incompetent we wouldn't be over there, or at the very least, we would have ended this so called war decisively. Instead we run around blindly with no clear mission, while our soldiers sit like ducks in a pond. Every one of our casualties rest squarely on the shoulders of "dubya" and his henchmen. It scares me to think this moron could get re-elected.

[J_Lannon]

Get a grip dude.

You can't shut down the US economy over some BS dreamed up Mercury level report.

You have bashed the president over some pointless EPA proposels that Clinton introduced without a clue...................... as to how to lower these mercury outputs.

Typical Democrats introduce alot of touchy feely laws to apease thier enviromental radicals that supported them.

Typical Democratic leadership has looked at polls over principle for too long.

As far as your earlier post about Bush cramming lobbiest type people to the EPA team. You were were out of bounds.

You sound like the A-Typical """" the worlds ending today""".

Lets hear it for the clean water !!! Im sure we all can enjoy it under Muslim rule.

[HighCap56]

CDog is right. This is the way forum wars get started and I should know better.

My post supported neither candidate, and was benign, but could open another can of worms.

Vote your choice and hopefully the man that wins will do something positive for our country.

[Cdog]

no better way to spread the love than start talking politics.....

[shaggy]

Sorry pens, but like flyer fans, and other (and I AIn't knocking them) blue collar (but union, well, let's be civil), but unions, and iffin' you from union neck, it's one thing, but the unions (which include broadcast TV and radio, and teachers, and there are some good ones), but jobs go overseas because unions demand toooooo much, teachers tenyour(?), well shouldn't be, that's why the US is behind in many basic skills, but the democrats have been behind unioins, and many (not all) unions have priced themselves overseas. What about corporate corruption, billy's BJ while chit was happenning, the attack on the Navy ship, the OK City bombing, the poor guy that was tossed overboard from a cruise ship (I believe), Trade Center garage bombing, and sooooo much more. At least "W" don't back down, and stands behind his beliefs (not to mention morality, which has been lacking under democrats, JFK cheating on the Mrs., may not have been the beginning, but pro demo press says nothing, the attempt to take the God out of one nation under, spanking children, and forms of discipline that seemed to have worked as I was growing up, is now a crime).

Bottom line is, I am sorry for American casualties (especially from the Trade Centers. and those from other countries), but the soldiers picked their callings, and God Bless them and America, but they should have been intelligent enough to realize, sooner or later they would be called to active duty, and the military AIn't no free ride, and yeah, it's my TAX dollars paying them. And as in this case, since September 2001, there have been no terrorist related deaths on American soil, so yeah, give me a stand by your decision as opposed to a vote for a flip flop, yeah I voted for intervention, but I changed my mind Kerry, and it wasn't Bush that ruined the economy, it was declining through Clinton's last quarter at least, and the Admin under him let alot of corporate coruption go on, and I will say, Bill did teach me (if I smoked cigars) new uses for them, and I'll take this the rest of the way via pm if you want to debate.

Bottom line is government is toooo big, thus costing Americans tooo much money, for people (and I personally know) who do nothing, and thanks to unions and red tape, can't get fired unless they go postal.

Sorry Manny Jake, you being up from Philly and knowing your views (and Eagles won, so don't let me ruin your buzz), but this BS, and fabricating and twisting truths for one's benefits, is total crap. D rather ought to resign, as long as he has been in the biz, he knew better, and a kerry campaign advisor calls the guy but "doesn't discuss" it it pure unadulterated chit, and if this keeps up, I'll go from independent to Republican, just because I am tired of the "twisted truths" against (and yeah, I didn't like Clinton, as he cheated on his wife, whitewater, and her insider trading, and he eventually proved he was too busy) MY president (sh&& Sodamninsane would still be around if gore had one, thank heavens for the idiots who couldn't punch a frickin' chad, and that says all I need to know). I like the fact we have someone with morals in the office, and his wife is a blessing, not to mention a sweetheart, but it is about time to be fair, demos, repubs and indies, and I will tread through not as deep chit, as opposed to voting for a self depicted, been here a bit now get me home, throw "my" medals away (not), bash my fellow soldiers in arms, if they did what he said they did, pretty much guaranteed so did he.

Now, Flea will either kill this thread, or the whole BS board. Or, politics and religion are out of bounds.

[HighCap56]

Originally Posted by shaggy

Now, Flea will either kill this thread, or the whole BS board. Or, politics and religion are out of bounds.

I don't mind censorship that stops arguing and flames, but I do enjoy the General BS as a whole.

At the YStore! Forums (ecommerce support) we had to kill the Politics and Religion threads as some serious rifts flared up on a regular basis on these very two topics.

My .02

[shaggy]

I am for Bs, but politics and sometimes religion go too far beyond (yeah, I belive in God, or a higher being, no facts, just toooo scared not to), but too much political stuff is based on hearsay and non-truths (re: rather), or Bush didn't win, but he is OUR President, or Kerry awarding himself the medals, bottom line is I feel safer now, the economy is not as bad as the press makes out, and that makes me feel okay, at least Pre. Bush is constant, but Kerry just goes the way of the polls or the press (I am for this, oops, now I am for that), and unfortunately that is the real sad part of BS, is that many have a one track mind, believing what they read and or hear, and not using their own cognative thought process to make up their own mind.

Me, after rather and the cbs "news" story, and then admitted, mistake, I am leaning toward making up my own mind. like I haven't already.

[reddog1]

We can argue all night about politics. I didn’t mean to get anything started like this. The bottom line is people are going to believe what they see on tv and hear from others, which is always negative and Democratically oriented, without finding out the true facts. But thats everyone's right is here living in America. Let’s just enjoy fishing and leave the arguing and decisions for the November elections.

[Fish Bait]

“For the third time, environmental advocates have discovered passages in the Bush administration's proposal for regulating mercury pollution from power plants that mirror almost word for word portions of memos written by a law firm representing coal-fired power plants”

For the complete article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Sep21.html

[johnnyleo11]

Why don't you all go fishing and calm down.