Line diameter question

[Tommy]

We know that there are several lines that you can get to satisfy the .31 size for 150 gram leads. Gamagatsu 12, big game and suffix 10. What brands and lb test lines meet the .28 limit for the 125 gram class weight???

Thanks

Tommy

[BlaineO]

Tommy,

Measure the line.

I'm not trying to be wise cracker, but some line brands I checked last year that were OK are now too large when I checked spools made more recently.

Most of the time if the label indicates .28, it will be at least .28, but you have to measure to be sure.

In at least 1 case what was .30 last year measured .322 with a more recently made spool, not good!

Blaine :)

[bob]

Tommy/Blaine
The 10 lb Gamugatsu is the perfect .28 line. I am sure there are others but this is is top of the line.
bob

[Led]

Tommy,

The ideal would be to get line that measures spot on the 0.28mm, how ever line does vary and you wouldn't want to have a record cast thrown out as your line measured 0.275mm :eek:

I tend to opt on the safe side and use something slightly over. I Sufix Supreme in Hi-Viz Yellow is says 0.28mm but comes in at 0.29mm.

Too many casters get hung up on trying to get their lines too close to the limit, if yopu get through as much line as me then it's got to be reasonable in price :rolleyes:

I have a 4 state rule :-
"Check line, Load reel, Cast & more importantly - Be Happy"

Led.

[BlaineO]

Bob,

That is one of the lines that tested under .28, .278 if I recall correctly.

Measure, then measure again.
Manufacturing tolerences are not as close as manufacturers would like for you and I to believe.
Blaine :)

[Tommy]

Thanks guys.

I understand the importance of measuring the line. I go though alot of practice line and was trying to get an idea of popular lines to practice with. It still amazes me how much expand/shrink mono can go through with an ambient temp change. At the worlds last Oct some of the shock leader that Joe had measured as OK during the summer actually measured undersized. Same spool. I guess that if you had a major temp drop that the line could measure OK on sat and be illegal on sun.

thanks for the info,

Tommy

[Connman]

How you measure the line also effects the result . You can not crank a micrometer onto line and ever get a true line diameter , this will flatten the line and under read the true diameter .If using a micrometer ,lock the spindle at the desired diameter either .31mmm or .28mm , then take your line and try and slide thru the opening ,if it slips thru easily it is undersized ,if you have to pull it to get it into the jaws it is over the legal size and good.
A dial calipers uses the same sliding principle as above but i have yet to see a US caster with one. :)

[BlaineO]

Connman,

You need to look in my toolbox, not 1 pair of calipers but 2.

Better safe than sorry.

Blaine :)

[BigWillJ]

Well Tommy, after this thread, we still don't have the answer for which .28 Hi-Viz line is READILY available to us!!! Unless we get lucky and come across a "legal" measurement.

I measured the .011", 8# Stren Original Gold at .2794mm, but my (LCD display) micrometer always measured less than Joe Moore's, so it might be a good tournament line.

Same held true when I compared measurements of the Gama G-Power 12# for the .31mm event. My microm was under, but my line was legal per Joe's microm.

A Gama G-Power Spool I have in 10# also measures just shy of legal, so I'm hoping it measures up at the next event.

Cheap practice line we use around here is Tight Line by Bass Pro/Offshore Angler. 1/4lb and 1/2lb spools of their .011", 8# yellow can be had for $4.99 and $9.99 respectively. Plus tax and/or shipping of course.

And who knows, it might measure up!!

If we need to get some legal line from "overseas", I'd go with one of the copolymer formulations. They cast well, and usually measure up to what they say they are. Plus, they are sold with measurements in .mm's, not .in's like mostly over here.

Not much more help, but my plug nickel's worth. Will.

[bob]

Hey Will
The Gamagatsu line measured by Joe Moore was as Blaine said slightly under the .28 limit and therefore illegal.Since then I have measured several spools of Gamagotsu with Charlie Portaluppi and all were well over .28.I should not have recomended the Gamagatsu line to Tommy without giving him this information. We will be happy to measure any line before a tournament starts.
So Big Will remember we are casters also and looking for that perfect line. You have as much information available to you as we have to us.Help us find the answers.Gamagotsu is measured in mm so the measurements listed can be just as wrong as those measured in inches.Andy [LED]has some good advise and I guess what I am trying to say is the same thing he said."Better safe than sorry." I will be using Gamagatsu .28 line. If that doesn't measure .28 or larger on tournament day I will go with the Gamagotsu .31 for all events until I find something better.In the meantime lets work together and see what is available.
bob
PS
Charlie I know you can't wait to get into this one.

[BigWillJ]

With you all the way, including moving up in line size for tossing a 125g if need be. As have others, been there and done that already with both the past and present line requirements for 150g.

I'm looking for that ever elusive "copolymer" in the right sizes. Gammy might do it if I find a good spool which still measures up after some stretching exercises.

Can tell you this. The Yellow Diawa Tournament from across the pond, which says it's .31, has always measured up to specs or better. Only dislike is how rough it feels between the thumb and finger. Though it usually smooths out after some use.

[Thumb-Burner]

since the 10# sufix (label .30) seems to measure up for the 150g, i assume the 8# (label .28) would be acceptable for sure for the 125.. right?

[BlaineO]

TB,

The essence of my posts concerning this are, "Measure your line".

If you just bought it, and it does not measure, return it from whence it came.
Then try again.

Assume nothing, measure the line, (Your line), or have it measured.

So far the 8# Suffix I've measured is up to par, (Minimum of .28), but I sure would not want to participate in a tournament to find out none of my casts count.

So, if there is any doubt,
Rule #1: Measure the line
Rule #2: Have someone else measure the line.
Rule #3: Repeat rules 1 and 2 in more than 1 spot. Actually, several spots if it is close. The line may not be a uniform diameter throughout.

I'm not trying to be crass here, but the consequences for using undersize line are simply not worth it. Using under size line is cheating, intentional or not on the part of the caster.

Blaine

[Led]

All,

Good Points but the single biiggest one is "never take the manufacturers word for it" :rolleyes:

Take heed to Blaine's words - Measure and Measure again !! Mono does vary in size acording to tempreture and humidity, we are dealing in an area which probably has the least amount of quality checks. Take a 4oz filler spool, over the complete length (say 1200yds for 15lb) the diamter WILL vary over the entire spool and we are paying how much for the line ??

BigWillJ has a good philosophy in that if you are using line that is over size then you have eliminated 1 of the problems, yes it will affect your distance by only a small amount (maybe as low as 2-3%).

Keep happy & cast far.

Led.

[BigWillJ]

Hey all - this thread brings up another interesting thing - how do we all know if our microms/calipers are calibrated the same? Maybe we could establish a "margin of error" guideline?

Naturally, we each calibrate according to each operating manual's instructions. It's been my experience for my instrument to "indicate" a different (LCD) read-out than other folks get by manually reading theirs. I should add that I've eliminated the way I use mine by having others use it in comparison to how they "read" theirs. Maybe we should establish a line measurement "margin of error", which falls into a safety margin for the line we choose to throw?? It would:

1) establish a standard for everyone,
2) take into account manufacturing differences/tolerances across different spools of the "same" line,
3) take into account different measurements along an identical spool of line, and
4) lend itself to the same level playing field that our current rules do.

Blaine - I understand what you've previously contributed about the need to establish an absolute minimum line diam requirement to make it a level playing field, and I thank you for helping me understand that. What do you, Bob, and others think about a "margin of error" idea?

Summarizing in a different way - if we each purchase a spool of Stren Yellow Original in 8# at the same advertised .011"(~.28mm), a margin of error would allow the "same" line to be used without penalty for minute tolerance or measurement variances (across the same spool OR different spools). If the competitive difference in distance is very low by moving up to the next line size, it makes sense that there is little to no advantage for several different casters to be using the "same" 8# line which might measure within a very small tolerance on either side of .28mm. Nor any sacrifice in safety. Do y'all think there would be very little, almost non-existent, diff/adv if the "same" (.011/.28) line comes in at .2794 to .2951, or some pre-established over/under margin? As important, it appears a margin-of-error rule could be enforced as easily as an absolute minimum diam rule. What's the rest of the casting brethren think?

[BigWillJ]

I should clear this up - it wouldn't matter how much "over" a line measures. I was using an over/under example to point out how little the advantage would be if the same line was measured an infinitesimal amount under.

[Poser Luppi]

Bob et al: I find that temp. is a factor. Smaller when cold, larger when warm. If you're measuring Gama 10lb at 30 degrees it probably wont measure over .28 mm. But over 60 and it will. Also it seems like some sections of line arn't as round as others, so you can get a false reading from that and just basically the line is so soft that a very light touch is necessary. You have to ease down on the line and move it a bit and then back off a bit and move the line a bit.

[BlaineO]

Will,

We do have a margin of error, (the minimum, +something/-zero). :)

The point of having a minimun is just that, it is a minimum.

If there is any reasonable doubt as to meeting the minimun size requirements, find a line that you are comfortable that will measure the minimun.

It is easier and better in my opinion to be able to set your calipers or micrometer to the correct size, and have a go, no go check.

If the line rubs both sides, great, if not, find other line.

For instance, I personally don't want to spend hours verifying line is between .28 and .29, too time consuming. If it's over .28 for the 125 gram event, even .32, it's good to go in my opinion.

Let's not make things anymore difficult than they need to be.

Blaine

[BigWillJ]

Respectfully Blaine - I thought it would make things LESS difficult for the masses if they didn't have to sort through and measure a bunch of line with a stated (legal) diameter, including the judges, officials and staff. I understand what you're saying. Though it also doesn't seem that difficult, nor that time consuming, for a "judge" to measure the line of those in the winner's circles, or measure that one line which just set a new record. It has to be done no matter what the "minimum" requirement is. If any caster wants to cheat, it ain't gettin' 'em anywhere. If they win or set a record, the line has to be measured at least once anyway. And the pre-set measurement on the judge's instrument could just as well be that margin which accounts for expected (and mostly predictable I would add) manufacturing tolerances, and also individual measuring differences. I think you would agree it's not that difficult, nor that critical, certainly no more time consuming, and would be a big help, and LESS time consuming if the masses didn't have to go thru the search/sort/purge exercise with different lines which are advertised and sold as "legal" for our purposes. Most reputable line manufacturers don't exceed certain tolerances. All I'm saying is, .28 line is .28 line, is .28 line, is .28 line. Pre-set that predictable tolerance level, say .2795 for example, in the rules and the instruments, and nothing changes in your process of measuring. It won't bring into the picture any line which is advertised at less than .28. And it's not as complicated as my post might make it sound.

[Connman]

Bill Halpin is getting some Diawa tournament from Uk for the .28mm class not sure if it is 8 or 10lb rated line will let you know how it measures when we see it .
I use line using same principle as Blaine , go/no go on diameter ,close to the limit but not super critical . I don't care if it is .28 or .285 or .29 .that kind of diameter difference doesn't matter to me and I treat it as a variable in tuning the reel more than ever thinking it may effect distance .
You do have to measure to be safe ,one to make sure not under limit but also don't want a fat line either ,i have measured some stated tournament line that claimed .325mm (old rules line) which measured .37mm ,now that is a big difference and did have a drastic effect on distance.
Who is to say who's caliper or micrometer to measure with at the tournament ,are we all going to show up with certification of accuracy from the Weight and Measures , I usually found Joe's micrometer to be more forgiving than mine.
Play it safe ,get a good cast in and we can sip a few beers at the end of the day ...
:)

[peter thain]

hi guys

a set of feeler gauges is handy for finding out whether your micrometer is set up right.

take your micrometer with you when you go to buy line and do what i do, get boxfulls of the stuff down off the shelf and go through it until you find out which spools are the right size and which one,s are under.

when you measure the line make a loop and measure that, so if the line is oval it will measure the largest cross section [good practice for tournament measuring as well!]

tolerance, personally i look for line about .285-.29 that way even after a few casts and stretching it is still over .28mm

regards peter

:cool:

[BigWillJ]

Conn and Peter, I've heard you, and I've heard Blaine and the others. I have no problem myself abiding with the current rules. You should see all the line I have. Like fishing equipment, I'll never use it all. Shouldn't have to go thru that. A small change in the rules is all it would take to be a little bit more helpful, especially with the limited availability of (close to) "legal" lines around here.

It's difficult for us Stateside folks to go thru the shelves of available line on the other side of the pond. Also difficult to do same mail order, both within the States, and overseas, without accumulating an inordinate amount of line. Lots of Tackle Shops, major retailers, and chain superstores within 100 miles of me, and it's not easy to find competition legal casting line. I suspect that's the same for others.

Just trying to be helpful by upgrading the old ways to make it easier on everyone, especially any newbies. I remember how much research it took just to get a few rods and reels to compete with, then came the line requirement search.

How hard is it to fix that?

[BlaineO]

Will,

You points are well taken, and Thank you for your courtesy.

And Thanks to all for participating in this thread.

Blaine :)

[big brother]

now to screw up things completely, let me throw this in the mix. as the ambient temperature increases metal (the calipers or mics) increase in size, as it cools they contract, now i don't know diddly about co-polomer lines, but i do know about metal expansion and contraction (i teach the course). charlie ps i think i'll just load my stuff up with 30lb big game and be done with it.

[peter thain]

can throw a spanner in the works as well?

the court expands when its warm! :D

[Billr]

ah yes. the usual way. the heck with the rules. find a way around them. :) :) :) :) :)

[BlaineO]

Big Brother,

That would be why you calibrate your test instruments in the current conditions, in order to get accurate measurements.

Good point, though.

Blaine :)

[Tommy]

I understand, undersize is undersize. I do agree with Big WillJ on the point of "margin of error" with the calipers. I'm not sure how much difference you could have between several difference sets. I guess there would have to be 1 "official" caliper and that would be the final word. I would hate to measure, think I had the right line and then have it declared illegal because of discrepancy between instruments.....

Tommy

[Jim Johnston]

To check out your micrometer/calipers (calipers are not always as accurate as micrometers) go to a good mechanic or machinist. The good mics come with a pin to set the mic for accuracy. The logic seems simple -err towards being a little too thick instead of being right at .28 or .31. Most of us would do better with a little more technique than a shavings worth of thin line.

[BlaineO]

To all,

I can't see anyone being disqualified by one test instrument, it should be at least 2, and probably 2 different individuals measuring.

Maybe that is why I have 2.

Peter's idea with the feeler guages is also good, to calibrate instruments and as a rough guide as needed.

The main problem I see with having a +/- tolerence is we have enough trouble find line that is just oversize, can you imagine trying to find line +/- 0.025 or whatever?

A minimum size is the least complicated and has been proven over time.

Blaine

[Led]

Hi Jim,

Your post is that of a wise man.

Led. ;)

[BigWillJ]

Thanks for all the replies. Me thinks I'm being misunderstood though. Right up front, the rules are fully understood. I've had the "min" rule explained MANY times, am NOT attempting to get around any rules, AIN'T trying to shave any line diams, and also not trying to compensate for any discrepancies in microms. If my micrometer was used as the official measuring tool, which gives out an accurate reading after being "zeroed", there wouldn't be a legal .28mm, OR .31mm line, available in the States. There would be several lines available in .011 and .012.

Lines are mostly .010, .011(which is technically under .28), and .012(which is technically under .31).

With all due respect to the currents rules as they are stated AND enforced,

[BigWillJ]

(continued from above, don't know what happened to get posted before complete)

...I fail to see how a margin of error could possibly bring any farther debate about the numbers into the arena, nor would it bring smaller line diams into the picture. Perhaps the mm standard works in a country where the metric system works, perhaps we ain't ready for it. I dunno. What I do know is this, .011"/.28mm, and also .012"/.31mm lines are virtually the SAME lines between inches and mm's. No sacrifice in safety, no advantage to any caster, and not a problem to be measured and enforced where the next size down line (.010) could be snuck onto the court.

Look at it this way. There AIN'T no line being made BETWEEN .011 and .012, so our rules are telling us to use 150g lines for 125g casting, and the next size line up from .31 for 150g casting - which basically puts us back to the old rule of .32 - BECAUSE, our FEW .28 lines are being measured as sublegal. And that ain't me talking - it's being indicated right in the replies in this thread.

All I'm suggesting is we somehow bring the stated .28 lines(.011") into use as legal. Lines which are few and far between around here.

I realize this might still be futile. But I didn't want to remain on record as being misunderstood. See y'all soon I hope!

[Big Dave]

It may be of some help to some
MM to inch conversion

.28 = .0110
.29 = .0114
.30 = .0118
.31 = .0122
.32 = .0125

.65 = .0255
.75 = .0295

As you can see there is only .0004 of an
Inch between .28 and .29 mm line. That’s less
Than a ½ thousand, And if you look there is less
Not sure what the big deal is
About meeting .28 I would think that everyone
Would want to be a bit over the min anyway. The
Difference in distance for anyone using .28 as opposed to
.29 in all accounts could not be measured.
And if you take a close look at .31 and .32 line dia. There is
Only a .0003 difference between the two.

Regards Big Dave

[bob]

Will
Read Big Dave's post and enjoy the snow.
Bob

[Connman]

I think I understand what Wil is getting at . Lets just say that 10lb Big Game is legal for tournament purposes (.31mmm class)regardless of manufacturers tolerances ,same could be said for Diawa 12lb tournament or let the committee approve a host of commomly available lines ,it's not that many that are available anyway in the right color.
Other lines I use are Stren High Impact 10lb ,Offshore Angler Tightline 10lb (which I believe is Suffix Superior) .
For the .28mm I have found Stren Original Gold 8lb measures good. :)

[BigWillJ]

Oh, I AM enjoying the snow!! :-)))

I read the post - it's the same I'm saying in the other direction, that's all - which should make my point all that much clearer. If advertised .28 line is at or over .28 measurement, it's legal. If same spool of advertised .28 line measures .2795, it's not legal. Makes no sense to eliminate the SAME ball of string.

All measurements portrayed here:

.28 = .0110(2)
.29 = .0114
.30 = .0118

are the SAME (.011) line!!! So is .2795!

The .0122 and .0125 measurements are the SAME .012 line!

They don't make .0114/.29, .0118/.30, .0122/.31 or .0125/.32 spools of line.

They make .011 and .012. The manufacturing tolerances (above OR below .28 and .31) for those lines fall into the same lb test from like manufacturers.

Doesn't it seem a little strange we need to go to UK to find a competition "legal" line? Going back over this thread, and, so far, there's still nothing that indicates what line is available to us over here which is made and measured above .28(.011), EXCEPT the next size up, which is OUR .012(.31)!!

Tells me we can't compete with the Brits unless we use the same lines they have available to them. The rods and reels are in that category now. How we gonna get this sport to "grow" over here with that scenario continuing to go on? Bringing the same spool of line into play is a small start. And it doesn't do a danged thing in the way of changing safety, advantages, or ease of enforcement. What it does do is allow us in the States to walk into a tackle shop, pick up a spool of .011"/8# Stren Orignal Yellow Line and use it for tossing 125g leads, and the same for .012"/10# for 150g leads.

[bob]

Connman
Thanks for the information.
Bob

[Connman]

The gamakatsu line you refer to ,is that available in High Visability ? I have never seen it and gamakatsu doesn't show any line on their web site. :)

[BigWillJ]

Conn - Gamakatsu G-Power line comes in Flo Yellow. I believe Ryan carries it. It's also in Netcraft's Catalog. 300 yard spools only. Don't know if it's available bulk spool. Will.

[Big Dave]

Hi will
We have all seen lines advertised as a certain diameter. But when measured, they turn out to be something other than what’s marked on the spool. The marking is an indicator and nothing more. As we can all see it’s a matter of scaling and looking at 4th place decimal point? Do we need this much accuracy in line measure? I don’t think so at all, +/- .005 is fine with me. Now here’s the BUT. In competition you clearly need a minimum boundary not to be under. And .28 and .31 clearly defines it. Bottom line is you have to measure.

There are lines on the market that meet this requirement. They may in fact be slightly bigger in diameter. But that’s still ok. The difference casting .29 line as opposed to .28 can not be measured. It’s that close. As for casting with the UK guys It’s not the line that needs to be addressed, its technique pure and simple. Take a look at the UK guys that have come here to compete. Although they’ve won many events. It has not been by a landslide. All events have been very competitive.

Finding the perfect line is like trying to find the perfect reel, or perfect rod, perfect guide. Perfect tip top. Grip, and so on down the line.

By the way I find the the tight line from bass pro is every bit as good as the Gama
In fact I have a spool of each and its hard to tell them apart when they are side by side.
The tight line is .31 right on the money and the Gama is .29
See ya soon in MD Regards Big Dave

[BigWillJ]

Thanks Dave. I'm just letting folks hit me over the head with a 2x4 while on this personal program of trying to "help out". Hell, none of it really matters to my performance anyway.

The reference to competing with the Brits was a bit out there I know, just pulling at straws while staring at a snow pile in my driveway which I hope still harbors my car!

If I thought it would ease our Stateside woes in finding a legal line, I'd strongly suggest we use .011" and .012" as the guideline/minimum measure. My microm measures and digitally displays both. When I measure a spool of "advertised" .011" line, it usually measures that or more. If it measures right at .011, or anything under .01102, the line is under .28" and is deemed not legal for competition. In my analytical mindset, I'm thinking it's not necessary for that to be, and the wherewithal is there to do something about it.

Bob and company are doing a great job of keeping this thing going, Though the age old Sportcast-U-S-A vernacular continues...

Do you remember how line sizes were enforced back when Stren was a "sponsor"?

[Big Dave]

Bill
When Stren ran thier version of longcast tournaments. It was required that you use thier line which was the Golden stren 12lb line and golden stren 50 lb shocker. About halfway through the years of the Stren Tournaments SportCast USA was created. At that time, help to SportCast USA came from the UK and a set of rules was adopted at that time. The SportCast rules were quite discriptive in what can and cannot be used during a tournament. At the start up. the line requirment was .35mm

There also came a time when Stren re-tooled there equipment and the New Golden Stren diameter was smaller than the origianl .35 so the rule was ammended. That also held true to the Shocker as well resulting in a larger diameter leader.