I don't know what the world's coming to

[Hat80]

It's a sad day when things like this happen. :(....Hat

Natural Resources officer fatally shoots man at dock....story below

http://www.foxbaltimore.com/template/inews_wire/wires.regional.md/39b79212-www.foxbaltimore.com.shtml

[catman]

For the DNR to pull a weapon something very serious must have been going down. Let's wait until we get the full story.

[Orest]

the article to draw any conclusion.

[Hat80]

It has more detail.....Hat

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/31/AR2006073101185.html

[Singletjeff]

the officer has every right to defend himself, however shot and killed when he was only using a tire iron? I guess I'll have to wait and hear a little more information before I render a complete opinion on it

[fyremanjef]

Bet that guy will never pull a tire iron on a cop again.

[Railroader]

the officer has every right to defend himself, however shot and killed when he was only using a tire iron? I guess I'll have to wait and hear a little more information before I render a complete opinion on it

ONLY A TIRE IRON???:eek:

Used properly, a tire iron makes a FINE deadly weapon...

That officer's life will never be the same, after the inquests, civil suits, and monday morning quarterbackin'...

Not to mention he now has to live with the fact he killed a man...

That is a VERY tough thing to do.

So yes, it is a very sad turn of events.

[RuddeDogg]

I know the men and women that I work with as well as other lawenforcement agencies have use of force policies that are set in stone. That's why in our deoartment we have the balistic baton, mace and firearm. Your firearm being the ultimate level of force to be used. It depends on the situation and circumstances as to what happened. Suspects have been shot and killed with lesser type weapons and the shootings were justified. In the history of my department since 1955 there have been on four officer involved shootings one of which an officer was killed. Two out of the four including thet fatality I worked as the dispatcher on duty. In those shootings the first one a suspect who stole a Hogie from a local WaWa pulled a switch blade on the officer when confronted on the street. The suspect was shot in the leg after he lunged at the officer with the knife and the officer had no where to go. He would have probably been fataly shot had it not been for the Patrolman backing into his patrol unit while jumping back. The second shooting an officer was shot and killed while on a burglary call. Long story short we got the bad guy and he is prison for life with no parole.

[Singletjeff]

I was by no means saying a tire iron is not a deadly weapon. But ruddedogg brings a very valid point. I can't remember the last time I saw a law enforcement officer of any dept carry only a Handgun. But as I said, I believe there is more to the story that we may or may not ever hear.....

[Pauky]

Yeah, prolly much more to the story; that article is very vague. I hope that this 13 year veteran gave more than one warning to the offender.

Anyone ever watch some of these cop series on TV? I've seen a few videos captured where the cop gave warning with the firearm still holstered and the bad guy attacked, pulled the fire arm from the cops holster and used it on the cop.

[badgemann06]

As you can tell by my name I wear a badge for a living. Well let me help you out with the whole tire iron issue. We are trained that the level of force used is equal to, not less then then what we are up against. A tire iron is a "deadly" weapon, which means this....that any person would or should know that an attack with the weapon (tire iron), could cause grievious bodily harm or death.

Now on the human scale, put yourself in the shoes of the officer. Someone is coming at you with a tire iron, you have 1. pepper spray (which doesn't work on everyone and is less then on the use of force scale) 2. ASP batton, (we dont sword fight), so your only option is 3. firearm.

There's just a few thoughts.

[1BadF350]

Put yourself in the officer's shoes. You're being threatened by an unknown individual with a tire iron and all you have in defense is your baton, pepper spray, and service pistol. (I don't believe DNR officers carry tazers.) Which are you going to utilize? Do you think you have time to rehearse steps 1-2-3? Hell no, you utilized the measure that will bring an immediate stop to the threat, period.

I hope that this 13 year veteran gave more than one warning to the offender.

That's quite a statement. What if there was no time? If the guy didn't comply with the second (verbal) warning (first warning being the presentation of the sidearm), how is making 3-4-5 warnings going to make things better?

[1BadF350]

DAMN, badgeman beat me to it! LOL I was steady typing as he posted. I see we are on the same wavelength. Thats quite a coincidence.:D

[Andre]

Compared to PG POLICE MD DNR cops are laid back!!!!!! The first in 40 yrs that's good no Great.... If you add the fact that they deal with hunter w/ guns.

[badgemann06]

Yeah....in PG it's more like 1 in every 40 hours.

1BadF350....well just shows how a good training program is the best "weapon" an officer may have.

[Pauky]

1BadF350,

I'm on the cops side here. I was going to say that 'I suspected' he did give more than one warning, but rather used the word 'hope' because that article is so vague. I'm sure the cop gave more than one warning.

As far as if there wans't enough time: well, we can play 'what if' scenarios on this issue all day long--especially with such a vague artile--but we really don't know what happned and I don't think it's necessary to get wrapped around that axle.

Badgeman makes a good point.

[MANDINGO]

As you can tell by my name I wear a badge for a living. Well let me help you out with the whole tire iron issue. We are trained that the level of force used is equal to, not less then then what we are up against. A tire iron is a "deadly" weapon, which means this....that any person would or should know that an attack with the weapon (tire iron), could cause grievious bodily harm or death.

Now on the human scale, put yourself in the shoes of the officer. Someone is coming at you with a tire iron, you have 1. pepper spray (which doesn't work on everyone and is less then on the use of force scale) 2. ASP batton, (we dont sword fight), so your only option is 3. firearm.

There's just a few thoughts.
but you are also expert marksman. shoot to stop not kill. especially over a tire on. that borders excessive force. like fighting a shootout with a howitzer vs blowgun. sad the guy was stupid but did he have to die over it? life is much more valuable than that. a leg or shoulder shot would have done the trick just as well.

[1BadF350]

Police are not trained to "shoot to stop". The article may have been vague to the point it did not say what color shirt the guy was wearing but from what I've read it sounds like a justified use of force.

[RuddeDogg]

Has nothing to do with it. I can't speak for other departments except my own. Having gone through range qualifications with some of the guys (I like to shoot), they are trained to shoot center of mass. No arms, legs, fingers or toes. You are trained to percieve a threat as a threat and handle it accordingly. If that means you have to shoot the person then so be it. You never want to have to shoot that person but you will if you have to. From 1995-1999 I was a body guard for a security company. We were taught by retired law enforcement on hand gun survival techniques. I know from persoanl experience that you are trained to shoot to kill and not to wound. A wounded person is still a threat to you and anyone else. It sucks to say this but a dead person is no longer a threat.

[jmwilson75]

On any law enforcment officer you better be ready to face the consequences. The better question is what in wrong with the moral thread of our society that people feel that law enforcment should not use deadly force in these confrontations. These people have a very dangerous job to do an I respct them for it. I am sure that it is a justifiable shooting.

[Talapia]

Has nothing to do with it. I can't speak for other departments except my own. Having gone through range qualifications with some of the guys (I like to shoot), they are trained to shoot center of mass. No arms, legs, fingers or toes. You are trained to percieve a threat as a threat and handle it accordingly. If that means you have to shoot the person then so be it. You never want to have to shoot that person but you will if you have to. From 1995-1999 I was a body guard for a security company. We were taught by retired law enforcement on hand gun survival techniques. I know from persoanl experience that you are trained to shoot to kill and not to wound. A wounded person is still a threat to you and anyone else. It sucks to say this but a dead person is no longer a threat.

I agree.

[cygnus-x1]

On any law enforcment officer you better be ready to face the consequences. The better question is what in wrong with the moral thread of our society that people feel that law enforcment should not use deadly force in these confrontations. These people have a very dangerous job to do an I respct them for it. I am sure that it is a justifiable shooting.

Right On ! I bet very few of us have been in situations like this police officer. They have to walk a fine line in their jobs. Siince there is no other evidence to the contrary we ought to give this person the benefit of the doubt. If you attack a police officer (or anyone else for that matter) you should be ready to accept the consequences.

If that guy would have attacked me, my wife or my daughter... and I was armed .... he would be going DOWN!

[fyremanjef]

Imagine being out on a pier and coming across a retard with a tire iron or a knife or whatever. When do you think his back up will arrive? Imagine if he was fighting with that guy, those minutes alone will seem like hours. even if backup came from a local jurisdiction, it will still be a while.

Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

Oh well.

[Railroader]

but you are also expert marksman. shoot to stop not kill. especially over a tire on. that borders excessive force. like fighting a shootout with a howitzer vs blowgun. sad the guy was stupid but did he have to die over it? life is much more valuable than that. a leg or shoulder shot would have done the trick just as well.


99% of cops ARE NOT ANYWHERE CLOSE to being expert marksmen. Many have trouble even qualifying as competent on the range, during training. Cops are trained to shoot the "center of mass" which unfortunately for the bad guy is the chest.

A hit from a duty pistol in the shoulder or leg is NOT an immediate threat stopper, and in most of those cases, the person shot does not even know it until the fight is over.

The only way to INSTANTLY stop an aggressor is with a well placed rifle round to the cranial vault. But this requires the services of a well trained sniper.

In "Hollywood Policing" the cops shoot knives out of hands, square off against multiple armed aggressors with a broken pool cue, but the problem is...

THIS AIN'T HOLLYWOOD, this is real life, and I'm glad that the Cop in this situation is going home to his family, instead of to the nursing home as a vegetable from being hit in the head with a tire tool.

The very statements that "this borders on excessive force"..."a leg or shoulder wound would have done the trick" shows a severe lack of knowledge on the subject matter at hand.

Did the "poor criminal" have to die??? In this case yes!

Not trying to make this personal Mandingo, you have the right to your opinion, but don't ever lose sight of the fact that it's guys like that Game Warden, and those in the military that "do the dirty work" so that you can live in a society that allows your first thought to be "That cop was wrong......He should have....(insert whatever you think he should have done)"

Lots of places in this world don't allow the questioning of authority.

None of us were there, none of us saw what that cop saw, and none of us should pass judgement on him. He will be investigated up the wazoo after this, and will have his whole life up to now scrutinized by folks who have never been in his situation. When they find him justified, you oughta buy him his first drink.

Sorry for this rant, and Mandingo please don't take it personally, it was coming to whoever the first one with your viewpoint on the subject was.

I'm gone back to the swamp, now....

[Lipyourown]

Someone comes at me with a tire iron and I'll leave the mace on my belt and the cop could have been smaller etc. Yeah, we need to wait for the details to know the full story.

[Pauky]

Here's a little more info on the subject. I took this from the TF site (they're going off the deep end with this subject). I couldn't find a link for this artile, but it appears to be authentic.

It appears the fellow that charged the officer was "eccentric."

If any of you were in the cops shoes, would have pulled the trigger, as a civlian? I'd have th sum up my options quickly, but I'd be worried if the offender's rights would outwiegh mine (you know how backwards some laws are).



From the Washington Post.

EASTERN SHORE DEATH
Officer Fatally Shoots Waterman

By Elizabeth Williamson and Eric Rich
Washington Post Staff Writers
Tuesday, August 1, 2006; Page B05

A Maryland waterman was killed by a state natural resources officer yesterday morning in a shooting that police said was justified by self-defense.

Thomas S. Sherwood Jr., 49, of Bellevue was on a boat dock in Tar Creek, in Talbot County on Maryland's Eastern Shore, when he encountered the officer, whose name was not released by police. It was the first such fatal shooting by a Maryland Natural Resources Police officer in more than four decades, a police union official said.

Sgt. Kenneth B. Turner II, a police spokesman, said the officer was a four-year member of the force with more than 13 years of law enforcement experience. He was placed on administrative leave with pay while Natural Resources authorities and Maryland State Police investigate.

"Preliminary findings indicate the officer acted in self-defense," Turner said. "It's a very unfortunate incident, [but] these are few and far between."

Turner would not provide details.

Larry Simns, president of the Maryland Watermen's Association, said watermen from nearby Tilghman Island who called him said Sherwood was shot after allegedly threatening the officer with a tire iron. Simns said the watermen believed the officer was responding to a trespassing call. Turner would not confirm that account.

Simns said the watermen told him "everybody down there kind of knew [Sherwood]. He was kind of eccentric, [and] they didn't consider him dangerous."

"But the police didn't know him."

Capt. William Bates, a police union official, said the last time a Natural Resources officer fatally shot a person on duty was in 1959.

In that incident, Berkeley Muse, 31, of Oak Grove was killed when three Maryland fisheries inspectors, who suspected him of illegal oyster dredging in the Potomac River, opened fire on his boat while trying to intercept it. Another man on the boat was injured.

[Pauky]

Sorry guys, no edit feature. I got some errors in my previous post (I'm on a laptop) that you'll have to guess. :rolleyes:

[fyremanjef]

but you are also expert marksman. shoot to stop not kill. especially over a tire on. that borders excessive force. like fighting a shootout with a howitzer vs blowgun. sad the guy was stupid but did he have to die over it? life is much more valuable than that. a leg or shoulder shot would have done the trick just as well.


If you have a knife in your hand and are with in a certain distance the cops can shoot you. There is some formula. For example, you can travel the 20' for so in say 4 seconds and begin stabbing the officer or whomever. a tire iron up side the head is just as bad as a spiderco in the chest, both can be deadly.

the question is why was tire iron there in the first place. Makes you think of the big picture, who are we really fishing with. We need to be careful out there. This could have easily taken place on the peak, the tank or anywhere else.

you got to love the types of "people" that go fishing.

[Orest]

the fact the locals knew him and he was harmless, yes I know he had a tire iron.

The point I want to make is if there were more DNR, maybe some one more local would have responsed to the call and things might of ended differently for all parties involved. And maybe next time one of use calls the DNR to report an incident they just might show up in less than 2 or 3 hours.

I think the state has cut their budget; but am not sure.

[Huntsman]

Amazing how many varied opinions arise here.

In all.. yeah, a tire iron can be used as a deadly weapon, but was it in this case..

Was the DNR office plain clothed or in uniform and did the officer identify as such.

At the peake around 2am and a gentleman comes down the pier plain clothed. Kinda thinking, no rods, no cooler, no gear.. must be ole green eyes... Low and behold as he gets down and asks to see the first persons cooler, he get's the grand stare, prior to pulling out his badge that was around his neck on a chain.

Now imagine if the persons cooler he was about to go into didn't respond to his question and commenced to wack out at the guy..

Would it have ended the same... We'll never now, just as we'll never truly know of the situation that developed here.

Was it necessary to take his life..hmmm.. there's only one judge and jury on that one...

The officer will have to live w/ what he's done for the remainder of his life, but to say the he deserved what he got for yielding a tire iron..

Man.. the presumptions...

[1BadF350]

LOL Pauky, that's the same article from the Washington Post that Hat80 linked to above in the 4th reply to this topic.:D

[lipyanker]

your a guy with a nine to five that you enjoy going to, your job is important because you keep the line between the good guys and the bad guys.
you have a family and friends like the people you protect. Your not superman the vest you wear only protects so much it only increases your chances to go home but doesnt insure it. All this is going through your mind while someone is coming at you with a tire iron iam going center of mass and probably double tap. ive been through this junk and no matter, what someone is going to find you wrong. but you lay on an emergency room guerny while your bloody uniform is next to you in a pile and you dont know if your going to be able to say goodbye to your wife and daughter this Sh%$t is real out there and it happens in seconds and hurts for years

[Orest]

"trespassing" call?

[Pauky]

There are all kinds of people on the planks and this incident re-enforces the thought of being polite to your neighbors if they cross your lines, get too close to your area, etc. Makes me want to fish in the surf more.

[Pauky]

LOL Pauky, that's the same article from the Washington Post that Hat80 linked to above in the 4th reply to this topic.:D


Doohhhh! How did I miss that? :rolleyes:

[jmwilson75]

So how does being a little eccentric and the locals think you are harmless give you a get out of jail free card???? Does this make the fact that he had a tire iron go away??? Why did he have a tire iron on the dock??? Let me guess His cooler got a flat. Had to be the first to say that one. But realy when you think about was the officer sopposed to stand there and see if he was realy going to hit him with it or not??? It is sad that the shooting is even in question, oh I am sorry it is not they said it was self defence. Just need to wait for the liberals to get tired or find a new horse to beat.

[RuddeDogg]

Good bad or indifferent a life was taken. Unless you have been put in that position you have no idea what its like. Youe here things like everything moves in slow motion, you get tunnel vision and you go through a wide variety of emotions. Believe me, what they say is true. You do get the tunel vision, things slow down and the variety of emotions from guilt, sorrow, anger, fear etc, etc are unbelieveble. That's why I don't work for the security company anymore. It stays with you for the rest of your life.

[fisherkid]

"trespassing" call?
but here the fwc is sworn law enforcement with the same ability to respond to these cases

[fisherkid]

permit a citizen to shoot when he (and a normal person) could feel like they are in great physical danger or danger of their lives. as a side you are not supposed to shoot to injure. if you do that and admit to it you'll be in pretty deep.

[Tarheel Angler]

We need more officers with the balls to shoot to kill just like this one...now if only this would happen about 50,000 more times, maybe law abiding citizens can be the rule rather than the exception again. Give that officer a big pay raise!!!!!!! :D

[Otter]

We need more officers with the balls to shoot to kill just like this one...now if only this would happen about 50,000 more times, maybe law abiding citizens can be the rule rather than the exception again. Give that officer a big pay raise!!!!!!! :D

Git er dun. Very insightful. Thanks for contributing.

My view, b/c I know you've all been waiting on it:

a tire iron is a deadly weapon
if/when you have to shoot, you aim for the chest and keep pulling the trigger until he/she/it ceases to be a threat
the officer and the deceased are probably the only two that know whether or not this was justifiable
people make mistakes...
and coincidentlly..two of the biggest mistakes you can make happen to be threating a police officer's life, and shooting someone when it might not have been necessary

[BubbaBlue]

Update:

Fatal shooting by a DNR officer being investigated
Waterman, 49, was shot three times after confrontation near boat, police say

Click here to find out more!
By Nicole Fuller
sun reporter

August 2, 2006

The killing of a 49-year-old waterman Monday by a Maryland Natural Resources Police officer - believed to be the first fatal shooting involving an officer for the agency since the 1950s - remained under investigation yesterday.

Thomas S. Sherwood Jr., 49, of Bellevue was fatally shot on the boat dock on Tar Creek, just feet from the vessel where he had been living, after what police described as a verbal altercation between him and Officer 1st Class Hubert F. Brohawn.

The officer was on routine patrol when he encountered Sherwood, who was returning to the dock in his vessel, and Brohawn attempted to conduct a check of Sherwood's catch, said Ken Turner, a police spokesman.

Turner said Sherwood threatened Brohawn with a large car jack and did not respond to repeated requests to put the item down. Brohawn shot him, and Sherwood died at the scene, Turner said.

Police said Sherwood had "an extensive criminal record" but would not elaborate.

But yesterday, the family and friends of Sherwood, a longtime waterman who was described as the "dock master" and a slight ruddy man who loved living on the water, said he had complained previously of being harassed by Brohawn.

"This officer had a number of run-ins with Tom Jr. for some time, and he was pursuing a vendetta against him," said the man's father, Thomas S. Sherwood Sr., 73, of Easton. "He just said this guy from DNR was harassing him."

The father said his son was shot three times in the chest at close range. He said his son had not been crabbing that day, and that no crabs were found aboard his boat. He also said state police told him his son's boat was running and in reverse.

"You could walk up to any waterman and you could hear stories about Officer Brohawn's confrontational and overzealous style toward waterman," said John H. Harrison, 54, of St. Michaels, who said he has been crabbing for about 20 years and has known Sherwood for almost as long. "He didn't like watermen, and they didn't like him."

Brohawn, a 4 1/2 -year veteran, was placed on administrative leave pending the outcome of an internal investigation. The Maryland Natural Resources Police Integrity and Inspections Unit is conducting a separate administrative investigation of the shooting. Brohawn also had worked for nine years at the Talbot County Sheriff's Office.

Harrison said Sherwood, who also worked in the construction business, had crabbed about three Sundays since the season started in April. He said Sherwood always took Mondays off.

"A lot of guys are real upset and ... worry about people in positions of authority out there with guns," Harrison said. "Tempers flare. ... I know Tom, I'm sure he told him, I'm here on private property. I'm not crabbing."

Dana Sindermann, 52, who owns a construction company and had employed Sherwood for four years, said he spoke to him moments before he was killed.

"I was supposed to have lunch with him," Sindermann said. "I talked to him at 11:28. He didn't seem confrontational. He wasn't drunk. Within 10 minutes of that he was dead. I think this whole thing is a travesty."

Sindermann said Sherwood told him Brohawn had arrested him on a driving under the influence charge a few years ago.

Lori Wheatley, a former state parole and probation agent in Talbot County who supervised Sherwood during a stint on probation nearly 20 years ago after he was convicted on a DUI charge, said yesterday that he "was not a hardened criminal."

"Tom would rant and rave about the things they did," Wheatley said. "They got too close to his boat and the weight caused damage [to his boat]. Because he was opinionated and spoke his mind, they probably didn't care much for him. But he didn't bother anybody."

[BubbaBlue]

More:

BELLEVUE, Md. -- Shocked by the fatal shooting of a waterman by a Department of Natural Resources Police officer on Monday, the slain man's colleagues are questioning whether the shooting was necessary.

Thomas Samuel Sherwood, 49, died Monday morning on a Talbot County dock after allegedly charging a DNR police officer with a car jack. The officer, Hubert F. Brohawn, was placed on administrative leave pending an investigation.

Sherwood had been cited before for boating while intoxicated and harvesting oysters without a proper permit. He also was on probation for discharging pollutants into the water. He lived on the boat where he worked.

Dana Sindermann, a friend and employer of Sherwood, questioned the police account of the shooting. Sindermann told The (Easton) Star Democrat that she talked with Sherwood by telephone moments before his death and that he was in his car, not his boat.

"He was nervous, but he didn't sound like he was expecting a confrontation that would result ultimately in his being killed," Sindermann said.

Roland Murray was driving his dump truck in Bellevue when he passed an NRP vehicle minutes before the shooting. He agreed with Sindermann.

"What's wrong with letting him go and catching him another day?" Murray said. "It's just senseless."

The shooting is believed to be the first fatal shooting involving DNR Police since the 1950s.

DNR police spokesman Sgt. Ken Turner said the altercation started when Brohawn attempted to check Sherwood's catch. Friends of the waterman said he had complained before of being harassed by Brohawn.

"This officer had a number of run-ins with Tom Jr. for some time, and he was pursuing a vendetta against him," said the man's father, Thomas S. Sherwood Sr., 73, of Easton.

"He just said this guy from DNR was harassing him," the elder Sherwood told The (Baltimore) Sun.

The father said his son was shot three times in the chest at close range, though an official account has not yet been released pending an autopsy.

"You could walk up to any waterman and you could hear stories about Officer Brohawn's confrontational and overzealous style toward watermen," said John H. Harrison, 54, of St. Michaels, who said he has been crabbing for about 20 years and has known Sherwood for almost as long. "He didn't like watermen, and they didn't like him."

Brohawn is a four-and-a-half year veteran of DNR Police and is assigned to the Upper Eastern Region. Before that he worked for the Talbot County Sheriff's Office for nine years.

"He did his job when he worked for me," said Talbot County Councilman Thomas G. Duncan, who was sheriff when Brohawn was a deputy. "I had no problems with him when he worked at the sheriffs office."

[fisherkid]

is very baised for the dead guy. just my opinion

[BubbaBlue]

is very baised for the dead guy. just my opinionI agree. Thats why I posted the second one. Not much better, but at least there's a positive comment at the bottom.

From the press, I didn't write them.
.

[fisherkid]

I agree. Thats why I posted the second one. Not much better, but at least there's a positive comment at the bottom.

From the press, I didn't write them.
.
I wrote mine at the same time you posted the second so I didn't see it. it both were posted at 4:16

[Hat80]

What news source did these articles come from? I would urge people not take a position on this until all the facts are in. The investigation is not complete yet. Lets see what all the facts are from both sides. Thanks.....Hat

[BubbaBlue]

First was the Baltimore Sun newspaper.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/crime/bal-md.shooting02aug02,0,5383422.story?coll=bal-local-headlines

Second was WBAL TV.
http://www.thewbalchannel.com/news/9614720/detail.html


From now on, I'll just post the links.
.

[Hat80]

;).....Hat

[Pauky]

The article does seem biased, but that might be because Tom's family/friends were available for interview and the DNR may not be commenting until the investigation is complete. These articles probably reflect only what's available.

[30ManStan]

You threaten a cop with anything ( a pencil, tire iron, fist) you deserve what you get. Every moron alive knows the cops are the enforcers of the law, they have the responsibility to protect all of us and themselves. If someone thinks they can break bad on the cops and try to get away with something, they deserve what they get. Believe me, you won't see me crying over this.

There are bad cops, but there are way more good cops. We have no choice but to trust the cops and the integrity of our justice system.

"It's time the long arm of the law put a few more in the ground, send them all to their maker and he'll settle them down".... (Toby Keith and Willie nelson)

I firmly beleive that if jails were more like jail, there would be a lot less people in them. We're running country clubs and you and I are paying the bill. The dude in Arizona has got it all right, he puts the criminals in tents with pink underwear in the middle of the desert. There is no air conditioner and he uses chains gangs when the prisoners are working. I think he pays them .35 an hour. There is no smoking and no fences. You are welcome to leave, you'll die in several hours trying to flee. He spends the lowest amount of dollars per prisioner of any state in this great country. I love this guy. We need more jails like them.

30ManStan

[Pauky]

We have no choice but to trust the cops and the integrity of our justice system.


Like Rodney King had no choice but to trust the cops?

[Andre]

On things now.....If this is true there 's a pattern of abuse from this rouge cop ..3 times up close why?...something smells fishy ...Thanks Bubba blue for the update ... good point Pauky !!!!

I'm trying to keep a open mined about this case

[BubbaBlue]

The article does seem biased, but that might be because Tom's family/friends were available for interview and the DNR may not be commenting until the investigation is complete. These articles probably reflect only what's available.Just for the record, I agree with you Pauky. I just posted information as I came across it.

I also feel that we don't know the "whole" story.
.

[RuddeDogg]

Pretty cut and dry. Evryone's focus is on the officer. Let's look at the the suspect which no one usually does. The first time the officer delt with him if he was in violation, it was a mistake. Second time....that's not a mistake. That is a blatent disregard for the law. If the suspect felt that he was being harassed there are ways to deal with that. The officer has superiors, he could have gone to them and filed an internal affairs report or he could have consulted an attorney. Doesn't seem like he did that. Instead he CHOSE to confront a lawenforcement officer with a dealy weapon and paid for that choice with his life. Case closed.

[Pauky]

Andre,

I don't think there is any suspicion in 3 times up close. That guy could have been charging and one round wasn't enough. That cop could have been on the beat with a .38 or 9 mil and it may take a couple of rounds to put down someone in rage and charging with those smaller calibers. For example, I hear the military is considering scrapping all their 9 mils to go back to the trusty ol' 45 cal--lessons learned in Iraq (someone back me up if I’m correct).

Either way, you don't attack a cop with a weapon--even if this cop was a down right prick. It's possible the cop used excessive force and it's possible the cop was in danger.

Hey Rudddogg, what does COSE stand for/mean?

[RuddeDogg]

Pauky. A buddy of mine in the Marine corps told me that the military is looking into going back to the .45, and they SHOULD as far as I am concerned. When I was a body guard we carried the Beretta model 96 in .40 cal and I carried the Glock model 17 in 9mm as a back up. A lot of PD's are going to .40's and .45's. I don't know what the DNR carries but up her the NJFG carry the .357 SIG which is a .40 cal round necked to fit the 9mm.

[Pauky]

Dogg,
How about that COSE? I'm curious.

Yeah, the military should go to the .45. That's a knock-down stay-down weapon.

[RuddeDogg]

CHOSE, as in he CHOSE to confront the officer.

[Pauky]

CHOSE, as in he CHOSE to confront the officer.


Oh! I thought it was an acronym that meant something like Chesapeake Harassing Officers Shooting Everyone. :eek: Silly me!

[JIGMAKER]

I have been involved in a fatal police shooting, it was the worst experiece of my life and my career. A Police Offcier's job is to serve and protect. At the same time we all want to go home at night to our loved ones. The one thing I say is if you were not there and in the offcier's position you can not judge the officer's actions. Different people have different threat levels. For example the 100 pound police woman may have a different threat level that a 6'2" 300 male like myself. You can not arm chair quarter back how that officer was feeling when confronted by the threat.

[fyremanjef]

and spoke his mind, they probably didn't care much for him. But he didn't bother anybody."
Jeffrey Dahmer was a quiet guy who kept to himself and killed how many people in his quite neighborhood?

[fyremanjef]

Like Rodney King had no choice but to trust the cops?


That video of Rodney was maybe 1/5 of the total video lenght. They did not show the tasers Rodney fighting back, anything.

Hey maybe I am biased. I am not a cop, but I have lots of friends who are cops. Having been a firefighter in PG county for over 16 years, I have had my run in with some dirt bags. and to see they way some of these people treat their loved ones, strangers and police officers, I have no sympothy for them. I am not saying that this water man who was killed fit this category, but hey my parents raised me well, but they never told me that it was bad to kill someone, to crash a car then bail out or to raise my hand towards a cop.

[BubbaBlue]

http://somd.com/news/headlines/articles/4177.shtml

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/bal-md.waterman03aug03,0,2552560.story?coll=bal-local-headlines

.

[RuddeDogg]

Driving while suspended or revoked, resisting arrest and obstruction of justice by attempting to leave after being told he was under arrest and aggravated assault on a police officer by according to the satute "1-Any person who attempts to cause serious bodily injury to another, or 2- Attempts to cause, or purposely or knowingly causes bodily injury to another with a deadly weapon. I think swinging a jack or tire iron THREE times at a police officer qualifies for what happened.

I forgot the most important part: Any person commits simple or aggravated assault as defined in the sections listed any law enforcement officer acting in the performance of his duties while in uniform or exhibiting evidence of his authority or because of his status as a law enforcement officer.

[Pauky]

Thanks for posting BubbaBlue!

Those articles certainly cut out lots of speculation. It's obvious to me the DNR cop was in the right and the waterman brought these events upon himself.

[MANDINGO]

99% of cops ARE NOT ANYWHERE CLOSE to being expert marksmen. Many have trouble even qualifying as competent on the range, during training. Cops are trained to shoot the "center of mass" which unfortunately for the bad guy is the chest.

A hit from a duty pistol in the shoulder or leg is NOT an immediate threat stopper, and in most of those cases, the person shot does not even know it until the fight is over.

The only way to INSTANTLY stop an aggressor is with a well placed rifle round to the cranial vault. But this requires the services of a well trained sniper.

In "Hollywood Policing" the cops shoot knives out of hands, square off against multiple armed aggressors with a broken pool cue, but the problem is...

THIS AIN'T HOLLYWOOD, this is real life, and I'm glad that the Cop in this situation is going home to his family, instead of to the nursing home as a vegetable from being hit in the head with a tire tool.

The very statements that "this borders on excessive force"..."a leg or shoulder wound would have done the trick" shows a severe lack of knowledge on the subject matter at hand.

Did the "poor criminal" have to die??? In this case yes!

Not trying to make this personal Mandingo, you have the right to your opinion, but don't ever lose sight of the fact that it's guys like that Game Warden, and those in the military that "do the dirty work" so that you can live in a society that allows your first thought to be "That cop was wrong......He should have....(insert whatever you think he should have done)"

Lots of places in this world don't allow the questioning of authority.

None of us were there, none of us saw what that cop saw, and none of us should pass judgement on him. He will be investigated up the wazoo after this, and will have his whole life up to now scrutinized by folks who have never been in his situation. When they find him justified, you oughta buy him his first drink.

Sorry for this rant, and Mandingo please don't take it personally, it was coming to whoever the first one with your viewpoint on the subject was.

I'm gone back to the swamp, now....
i understand i was just thinking that if i have a gun a tire on isnt a threat to me until he gets close which i wont let happen why shoo t him . i get ya point tho

[1BadF350]

What are you gonna do run away? If you have a gun, the tire iron IS STILL a threat to you until you draw your weapon and fire it.

[MANDINGO]

Like Rodney King had no choice but to trust the cops?
lol

[lipyanker]

you don't bring a tire iron to a gunfight you gonna lose

[MANDINGO]

http://somd.com/news/headlines/articles/4177.shtml

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/bal-md.waterman03aug03,0,2552560.story?coll=bal-local-headlines

.
THAT SUMS IT ALL UP RIGHT THERE AND I WAS WRONG I STAND CORRECTED.BUT I AM MAN ENOUGH TO ADMIT IT.THANKS FOR SETTN THE RECORD STRAIGHT;)

[lipyanker]

this officer gave the deceased two oppurtunities to hurt the officer as well as chances to get arrested for a simple motor vehicle violation which meant he probably would have been home the same day.
why cant people get it just because we carry a gun we dont want to use it that waterman had a family and now they miss him but if i can help it my family will not be the ones missing me.
I dont think anyone can understand what goes on when an officer uses deadly force . I realize i cant explain it, just thank god for my training, brother officers, and witness's who are willing to tell the truth or else i would still be the subject of monday morning quarterbacking or some grand jury.

[BubbaBlue]

Official DNR press release:

http://www.dnr.state.md.us/dnrnews/pressrelease2006/080306.html
.