# UK casters, Why do American casters have difficulties casting 700ft. and above?



## longcaster (Oct 3, 2000)

Enquiring minds want to know?


----------



## DEcevR (Dec 11, 2000)

This should be an interesting thread!


----------



## BigWillJ (Jan 21, 2001)

It's always windy in the UK? Just kidding.

I dunno, but it's my belief the UK developed better equipment and technique out of necessity, so shorebound casters could reach where the fish are. They have to be able to throw long. I've heard it said that if a rod isn't capable of casting far, it ain't worth a plug nickel and won't sell in the UK.

Still, it'll be interesting to hear from our UK brethren on this one.

BigWillJ.


----------



## rojaway (Jan 24, 2001)

bigwill is part way there, longcasting for fishing is necessary in a lot of situations, our fish stocks have been hammered, BUT it is a skill to be used when necessary. yes, i think we do enjoy better weather conditions for casting but it is not always windy, a factor here maybe that there are a lot of casting clubs around the country, you can cast at an event just about every weekend thru the year, and usually against some of the top guys, here we learn from watching and listening to some of the best casters in the world, some of the new guys learn quickly and we have a new bunch of top casters. i know from experience of casting in the US, the air is humid and kills a cast, i was out practicing with big lou a few years back, we were hitting them as hard as we could and only just topping 700 ft, other days i,ve cast and gone over 800, i would guess spring time would be best for the biggest distances, look at the distances cast at the corpus open last year, heck, even nick meyer cast 748 ft. hope this answers a few questions, i'm off to work now, back on this evening, 6pm EST, talk some more then.
roj


----------



## longcaster (Oct 3, 2000)

Thanks rojaway for your post and all the valuable information that you provide. We appreciate, and look forward to all that you have to say. 

Hopefully some of the other UK casters will respond also!


----------



## Nickaway (Jan 22, 2001)

Rojaway, I cast that far because I love Texas.  I was speaking to Big Lou. He said "when he was in the UK the sinkers did cast further than they did in the US". I remember a mate of mine sitting in a Jumbo jet waiting for the air to cool before they could take of. Maybe the cooler air makes the sinker fly better. Did you see I will be in Florida the same time as you. I feel a party coming on. (Breakaway Power casting Board.) Nickaway.


----------



## rojaway (Jan 24, 2001)

morning george!good to see ya over here nick, i remember lou saying about casting further in the UK, but as i have posted before, a lot of practice is necessary to perfect the cast, back in the UK, apart from practing about twice a week, i would cast at, something like six national tounaments, six regional tounaments and a couple of internationals, so most of the tie i was casting against top class competition.
despite us limeys having a reputation for being good losers, we want to win as much as the next guy.
here's a question for US casters, how many tournaments do you cast in thru a year, although the distances we have to travel in the UK are not as far as in the US,traffic is much worse, eg, last year i flew into london and had a 120 mile drive to my home town, it took me over 5 hours, while field practice is important, try to get to as many tournaments as you can, they do bring out the best in you and you get to see and talk to the top guys.


----------



## sand flea (Oct 24, 1999)

This is a complete shot in the dark. Although I lived in the south of England for a while, I'm still a newbie with distance casting.

Environmental conditions, while a good theory, just doesn't hold up. I've never lived in a more humid place in my life than England. Temperatures, humidity, elevation and every other atmospheric condition I can think of are relatively similar to many regions in the US. I think the difference is cultural.

The anglers I got to know in the UK had a different style; they were more focused on the process of fishing, the rituals of angling. Those of us in the US are more results-oriented, and while we are capable of enjoying a day out fishing, we have one end--catching fish. UK anglers want to catch fish, but they seem to focus on specific parts of angling--making themselves experts at fly-tying, long distance casting, or one specific species that they pursue passionately.

Just a few cultural observations that may or may not be valid. But the fact remains that Brits do seem to excel in this field. Good question longcaster! There could be dozens of theories.


----------



## Russ Dadds (Feb 23, 2000)

I've only got one thing to add: They've been doing it longer!


----------



## rojaway (Jan 24, 2001)

i'm not sure of that russ, there's been loncasting in the US since at least the 1920's, sand flea, i'd not looked at it that way, but it's possible. and , as i posted earlier, our fishing is hard, so we may as well spend our time casting, catching is getting harder over here, to many of us, a big cast is as good as a big fish, (and probably easier to get)
just keep practicing, you alteady have some great casters with several more almost there, i've seen the rapid rise of daylin vick down in texas, and a couple more not far behind, and i know you americans are very competitive, persistence pays off!


----------



## Black Beard (Jan 25, 2001)

I don’t think it is a phenomenon limited just to US casters but here comes my reply…

Casting appeared to reach a peak in the USA during the 1950’s, I believe it was in the 60’s that the East Coast organisations changed the events from leader to level-line event. This appears to be when much of the enthusiasm in casting was lost. 

In the UK tournament casting has been in line with Formula One motor racing – US equivalent Indy Car series? – in so much as it is a showcase for high performance rods and reels and where many of the technical advances are made that drip through to the general tackle trade. The current crop of magnetically braked reels being a good example.

I first visited the US in 1985 where a colleague and I gave a casting demonstration/seminar sponsored by Terry Carroll and Joe Moore/Shooters Supply. Casting appeared to be taking off again at this time and I believe it is this large gap in the history of US surf casting competition that casting in the UK has progressed further than in the US.

In the last 16 years US casting has had leader type competition casting and has progressed considerably. However, tackle requirements for actual fishing in our two countries is quite different. We have to get two or three small baits – by your standards – a long way out to catch relatively small fish. 
Okay we used to have good cod fishing, I personally have caught cod to 32lb from the beach. But believe me, having taken bull reds in Texas and bluefish on the East Coast there is no comparison in the fighting stakes. However, when I first visited back in ’85 with my Quattra’s the rods we saw - typically Hatteras Heavers - were still extremely basic plain glass.

Speaking purely technically, surf/casting rods produced by specialist UK manufacturers are extremely advanced by comparison to US manufacturers. While there may be many excellent rods in the US they are not in the same league in terms of materials, design manufacture. Having worked in two of our top specialist factories I know this for a fact. Another factor associated with this fact is that many US anglers rely on custom builders to make their rods for them. These are based on stock blanks cut and shut to what that particular builder believes is required. 

Twenty years ago in the UK you may have cut an inch or two off the tip to firm up the action but for a number of years now you pays your money and gets a rod ready to go. These rods are designed to perform exactly as they come by - in most instances - people that know what they are doing in terms of casting and produce a range of rods to suit various casting styles and angling situations.

However, this is not the end of the story, the USA is an extremely large country. In fact the Golden Gate Casting Club of San Francisco held a tournament against an East Coast casting club with results being transmitted by telegraph after each round! Here in the UK we hold five national events through the year and no one is more than five to six hour drive away. It is possible to attend a casting event somewhere in the country almost every weekend of the season.

This means there is a great pool of knowledge that can be shared – not always willingly – but anyone can get in a car and drive to an event to see the big boys cast and learn. This is not always possible in the US due to the lack of ‘local’ tournaments being advertised in a national magazine and the shear distance between venues.
Good casting - BB


----------



## BigWillJ (Jan 21, 2001)

Thanks for the historical capsule BB. I thoroughly enjoyed that, and the rest of your reply.

I'd like to comment, and expand, on this a bit:

"...rods are designed to perform exactly as they come by - in most instances - people that know what they are doing in terms of casting and produce a range of rods to suit various casting styles and angling situations."

Advertising and marketing here in the States is fierce. You pick up a catalog and you see a myriad of rods with technical descriptions about all of their components, and "use" descriptions, some right down to the species of fish one might expect to catch with one certain rod - leaving the consumer to think they need that one certain rod for that one certain fish. I find that UK rod descriptions lack some of that "technical" detail in advertising, leaving the consumer to "trust" in the ability of the rod to fit the generic casting style or angling situation for which the rod is intended. Here in the States, it's been a long time coming for rods that are dedicated to, and advertised strictly for, "field" or "competition" use. And I'm not even sure we're all the way there yet. Said differently, I find it difficult, even today, for US casters to make a decision on which rod is better suited for long distance comp use, and the selections are still limited over here, at least that's been my experience. I believe those decisions come easier in the UK.

Please, I'm not implying anything here, or suggesting that either country's "system" is better, or lacking, over the other. It's just that personally, I still find it difficult here in the States to find-and-pick-and-choose the (comp) rod of choice. I'm not really sure what my point is beyond that, though the knowledge base, and the willingness to share, is improving.

Thanks again Neil, Will.


----------



## Salty (Jan 10, 2000)

A thought:

In the UK, distance casting came from necessity. Necessity of getting through shallow sloping beaches and shallow water, to waters that might be deeper and more productive where certian target species might be.

In the US (East Coast at least), there is a different structure to the beach, with more troughs and bars, or other fish holding structures, which are usually much closer to the shore. With that, you don't have to cast that far to catch fish and a 200 yd+ cast might well throw you way over potential fish holding spots. I personally have hit many nice reds 10-20 feet off the beach, while people throwing 10-20 yards weren't getting anything. Now, don't get me wrong here, I'm deffinately not against distance, and anyone that knows me, knows most of my gear is set up for optimum potential distance, but most of the time, it just isn't necessary (for me anyways).

Well, just my $.02,


Salty


----------



## Led (Feb 1, 2001)

I find this thread intresting, Casting has become more of a sport in the UK with a larger emphasis in personal fitness. Some of the new rods on the market are so powerfull that unless your fitness levels are high there is no way that a respectable distance will be achieved. 

Roj & BB have stated that in the UK you can cast at a tournament every weekend throughout the year, this is true. Between tournaments no doubt casters are doing one of two things,either out practicing or down the local gym keeping fit. I have been guilty of the second because a reasonable fitness level does help when trying to cast a long way.

This is a sport that can be enjoyed by all age groups and fitness levels, but I believe that only those who have a good fitness level will ever achieve those 800ft casts, Yes it can be done by those who have natural casting talent like BB & Roj, but the majority of casters will resort to the 2 grunts technique.

Never have cast in the US, but have been there on my holidays I agree that the weather is different and casting is affected by the weather conditions. It must be said that some UK casters who have achieved massive distances at local events find it very different when casting at the UKSF events where the court is almost level and only just above Sea Level, it is a rare day when there is a wind at Huntingdon which will help the caster.

Regards,

Led.


----------



## BigWillJ (Jan 21, 2001)

Amen to all that Led!!

My "friends" tell me I'm "big and strong", albeit overweight, out of shape and way beyond prime to achieve the "greater" distances on the field. But it's fun at all levels. My goal, to be one of the few at "60" to be at "600". A paltry 500+ with an off-the-shelf rod and simple overhead thump, tells me to go for it. But the gym, at my age and condition, egads!?! Thoughts of me in a thong gym suit, or lycra spandex outfit, are off limits, downright immoral and maybe even illegal for anyone's well being OR eyes!! Reckon I'll go on dreaming about that 7 or 800 feet. Maybe even 600!! Or hey, maybe we should push for an "over 50" category!!? But the gym!?!?

BigWillJ.


----------



## Poser Luppi (Jan 23, 2001)

Hi all! I'll vote for the over 50 club!
I am curious about the atmospherical effects. I know most cars now have preasure sensors to help keep the fuel mixture adjusted. I think maybe its the preasure more than the humidity. BB what did you hit last year at the Nationals in the rain? Did you think at the time that it should have been more?


----------



## turboandy (May 30, 2000)

Poser, if you are talking about air density there could be an effect. When I used to race bikes we would actually varty the percentage of nitro according to the air density. On a good day when the air was dence we would run less percentage, on a bad day we would dump it in. The mixture varied as much as 5 per cent. The factors were temp, humidity and barometric pressure.


----------



## ade (Jan 20, 2001)

dont take this the wrong way but having watched the boards this one ,breakaway and north east sea angling i believe that the usa caster is far to involved with detail of tuning ,bearings ,rods conditions etc. i cant speak for anyone else but practise is the issue we are discussing or should be.
i in my first year of learning to cast spent about 5 months trying to do it, then entered a comp cast 630' five comps later i ended with 750' the comps were 2 weeks apart and i broke my pb on average 3 times a comp. i practised every night for approx 4 hours a night for the duration of the competitions 12 weeks in total. i then bought a mag reel and started filling the reel overfull i also practised through the winter about 2 hours a night 5 nights a week this was in the dark with no lights except a chemical light on the leader just above the lead casting into water (you can see the light all the way till it hits the water) i then joined the uksf that year i was best newcomer and had casts to 840 feet in local competition. i feel this might show a difference in the dedication between uk & usa casters.


----------



## Poser Luppi (Jan 23, 2001)

No offence taken. That is an amazing effort! When I first got "hooked" I was going out every morning for an hour or two until the light faded in the fall, but I didn't get much improvement out of it. Much later I heard someone say that practiceing a bad techneque is no help at all. I am wondering how you got so good without help?


----------



## Poser Luppi (Jan 23, 2001)

I also want to ask about your overfilling the spool. I had just about come to the conclusion (with others) that underfull was less weighty and therefore took less magnetic control initially and was the thing to do.


----------



## ade (Jan 20, 2001)

every cast in the first year incuding the 750' was made with a 6500ct 20/50 engine oil & one medium fibre block and a level spool i did not get a mag till after this time and somebody told me to put some more line on i could not understand how every one had half a spool of line left after they had cast yet mine was emptied every chuck.
i just watched people cast picked out what i thought were good points and tried to incorporate them into mine, but hit it late and hit it like you wanted to kill it, everyone else i watched locally seemed to just be mincing on instead of hitting it.


----------



## Black Beard (Jan 25, 2001)

Hi Poser Luppi - your getting around these days! I cast 784ft in the rain at last years Nationals and yes ait temp, humidiy and barometric pressuer all play a part in how the lead flies.
Have to agree with Ade, for 6 - 8 months a year I practiced seven days a week and twice on Sundays for FOUR years to get to the top. Interesting to note from old results my worst casting years were when I was at the gym! I go twice a week now, mainly cardio vascular to keep fit after heart bypass surgery. But I won the 1995 Worlds two years after the operation with only walking as exercise. BB


----------



## Black Beard (Jan 25, 2001)

Salty – The big problem with rods is that there is no definable performance data. Eg ‘This car will do 0 to 60mph in 8.3 seconds’ which is a fact that can be proved. A rod will only perform as well as the caster using it. Therefore you get a lot of hype about what casters X, Y or Z have done with it but little in solid data. Also there are no accepted standards for rod action so it is difficult to accurately describe even this. All this has been great for the advertising boys, - US and UK – who can make outrageous claims that cannot be confirmed or more importantly - denied. 

I run a helpline for an angling magazine plus my website board and the Q & A section and by far the most frequently asked question goes along the lines of:-“What rod would suit me best, I’m 5ft 10in, cast off the ground and currently cast around 450ft.” With my experience in casting, large group tuition and manufacturing I can go some way to pointing them in the right direction but at the end of the day most would benefit from an improved casting style rather than a new rod. BB


----------



## Poser Luppi (Jan 23, 2001)

You do have an advantage, casters to watch and more events for them to cast at. Few and far between in the US. I'm in for a year now and still have no one to cast with or watch. 

I really like the way you discribe hitting it. I just cought on to that, but would like to stress that it can only be coming out of the curve.

Still am unclear as to what you mean by overfull. I use the ultra mag III and fill the spool to about two mm short of the top edge.


----------



## longcaster (Oct 3, 2000)

What I've noticed in the USA is that most casters do not have anyone of distance casting skills to watch or cast with. The only fisherman they may see to imitate may not even cast the length of a soccer field. In the majority of cases there is no one of "Instructor Level" that anyone can turn to for help. Even the majority of American tackle dealers choose not to support us in our quest for distance.
At one time there use to be approximately 10 tournaments a year. We have not had that many tournaments for a long time now and I doubt if we every will again.
Sure there are some Americans that can cast 700 feet and above. At most tournaments you can count the ones that can on one hand. At other tournaments there aren't any. I believe that there are enough Americans that are willing to put in the time and the effort to learn to cast 700 feet and above. I'm sure that all of the people that participate in the tournaments are looking to improve there distance. Most of the same people come year after year hoping to gain the knowledge of the skills required to improve their casting distance to the point that we can cast as far as our physical limits will allow. To me that's dedication! Still no one with the skills to teach at this level exists for the populace. That's why we have so many questions!


----------



## Salty (Jan 10, 2000)

Black Beard- I wasn't really referring to my rods though, I was more referring to the reels and line etc. and my maximum potential. My reels are regularly set up for distance and are so loose that the line will literally come off the spool under its own weight, before fine tuning them. Usually too loose for most people still, but no spool wobble. 

I do throw mostly Breakaways, but my rods in someone else's hands- will perform completely different, I have no question to that, and I would never claim that one rod is better than the other. Everyone has a rod preference, I prefer Breakaways. It may not be the "Porche" of the casting world for everyone, but its deffinately not a Edsel, and it works for me. 
Maybe one of these days I'll actually find out how far I am casting... but as long as I am catching fish... its pretty low priori, but knowing I have the ability is pretty comforting out on the water. There aren't a lot of big distance casters that regularly fish around here in Tidewater, VA, so I don't claim any bragging rights. About the only guy around here I personally know that I would consider an equal when it comes to casting is Digger.

Tight lines, 

Salty


----------



## acaster (Feb 11, 2001)

I know what you mean about the flat ground at the uksf led , having said that some of my best distances where made casting up hill my best otg in the rain.
I think most uk casters learned how to cast to catch more fish although at times they are under your feet, it does give you more options


----------



## paul noble (Feb 7, 2001)

Does anyone have the results of the US international that uk casters competed in?? a few years back.


----------



## Led (Feb 1, 2001)

Paul,

They used to be on the BreakawayUSA site, if they are not there drop Nickaway a line.

Led.


----------



## ez2cdave (Oct 13, 2008)

Nickaway said:


> Did you see I will be in Florida the same time as you. I feel a party coming on. Nickaway.


Yes, I know that it's a 15-year-old thread . . .

That is "classic" Nick Meyer, a real "party animal" . . . He and Jerry Valentine both came to our 2001 Surfishing Expo in St. Augustine, FL . . . The late George "Gowge" Pope hosted the event, many of my friends ( George, Charlie2, Earl Brinn, Artie Hebert from Texas, & others, all deceased now ) were there . . . It was a great time, when I was young, strong, & healthy . . . Bittersweet memories !

Tight Lines !


----------



## 1thofa87 (Jul 23, 2011)

longcaster said:


> Enquiring minds want to know?


Well, whenever I'm casting from the beach, the dang wind is always in my face. So I'm gonna assume the wind is always at their backs. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.


----------



## surffshr (Dec 8, 2003)

Black beard
I heard you were under the weather. judging by your posts you are quite all right.


----------



## dialout (Feb 5, 2011)

This was 15 years ago....


----------



## surffshr (Dec 8, 2003)

dialout said:


> This was 15 years ago....


Thanks didn't notice that


----------



## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

It is amazing to see a 15 yr old thread resurrected. 

The title and content made me realize just how far casting has come in the past 15 years. In contrast to 2001 when this was started, 700' has been broken MANY times by multiple casters here in the states, with 800' being broken by at least a half dozen different casters since that time.



Times do indeed change.

Tommy


----------

