# Don't Be Afraid



## Brook (May 27, 2009)

Thrifty Angler's questions about ingredient amounts on another thread prompts me to quote Julia Child. Don't be afraid when cooking. You can't really go too far wrong. And, besides, she always used to say, "you can always eat your mistakes."

The thing to keep in mind, if you're new to cooking or just not adventurous, is that a recipe is only a set of guidelines. Feel free to vary the ingredients to meet your own tastes or dietary requirements. Increase or decrease an ingredient, or leave it out altogether, or substitute something else. 

In my work as a cookbook reviewer I have to follow recipes exactly. But other than that, I can't remember the last time I actually stuck to a recipe. Like most cooks, I'm always tweaking things to make them my own.

The only time precise amounts matter is in baking, particularly bread. Baking is as much science as art, and, unless you are a well-versed baker (which I don't claim to be) you don't want to fool around. 

But for anything else, follow your own route.


----------



## Peixaria (Dec 31, 2008)

Alright Brook, As you seem to be the sage here, I am an ardent baker. How about providing us with a few general purpose recipes for home baked bread. 
Perhaps something with a high gluten content, herby and rustic. And perhaps something that is closer to baguette style. I can make this one, just cant get it to gel, or have chewy crust with so much water. What is the secret to water based bread [pourable dough] without the crispiness. How about some hints. Sincerely Peix


----------



## RuddeDogg (Mar 20, 2004)

Brook said:


> Thrifty Angler's questions about ingredient amounts on another thread prompts me to quote Julia Child. Don't be afraid when cooking. You can't really go too far wrong. And, besides, she always used to say, "you can always eat your mistakes."
> 
> The thing to keep in mind, if you're new to cooking or just not adventurous, is that a recipe is only a set of guidelines. Feel free to vary the ingredients to meet your own tastes or dietary requirements. Increase or decrease an ingredient, or leave it out altogether, or substitute something else.
> 
> ...



That's right. A recipe is ONLY a guideline. Unless you are making traditional recipes.


Peixaria, I have some great recipes that I used to do up in a place where I worked. "Old time like 18th century recipes". I'll send ya some when I get home.


----------



## AL_N_VB (Apr 3, 2002)

> Don't be afraid when cooking.


I'm afraid when my wife attepmts to cook. She's burned water before.


----------



## Brook (May 27, 2009)

Peixaria, as I said, I am not that knowledgeable a baker. Until about three years ago I slavishly followed bread recipes, precisely because I didn't understand the process. 

Been baking bread seriously since then, and have finally begun to understand what happens when you combine flour, salt, water and yeast. I figure if I keep it up maybe in another 20 years I can call myself a baker.

The point is, when you're cooking you can fool around, change ingredients, work with a little of this and a handful of that, use other techniques, etc. Do that with baking and you have a disaster in the making. 

That aside, I'm not sure what you mean by pourable dough. Only such things I'm familiar with are quick breads, rather than yeast breads. 

For a high-gluton dough you have to start with a high-protein flour. In the U.S. that generally means specifying bread flour, but some all purpose flours actuall have a higher protein count. 

Developing the gluton, however, is dependent on kneading, and it behoves you to learn good kneading techniques. In addition to developing the gluton, you quickly learn, that way, what a good dough feels like, and can make necessary flour or moisture corrections as you go along. 

The other real trick is to proof the dough based on how it behaves, not by the clock. A recipe may say "let rise one hour." But your conditions might dictate that twice that is required. 

For a good crust, develop a steaming technique that works for you. I can describe this in more detail if you like. 

I haven't had problems with high hydration doughs, although they do have a tendency to spread outwards rather than upwards. So I confine them to things like foccacia. But even with the high-hydration dough used for foccacia, it doesn't pour. 

I also am a big proponent of delayed fermentation and pre-ferment techniques, such as popularized by Peter Reinhart. His _Bread Bakers Apprentice_ is, far as I'm concerned, the single greatest bread baking instructional book every written. 

For baguettes, epi, and similar loaves I like his Pain de Campagne formula. But my all-time favorite is his Pane Siciliano, which I make both as a single huge loaf, and in the form of dinner rolls. In either case I use the traditional double-spiral shape. 

If you're not up to working two- and three-days on a loaf of bread, another great book is Eric Treuille & Ursula Ferrigno's book _Ultimate Bread_. That one uses more familiar (that is, one-day) formulas, mostly based on new-made sponges. 

Among my favorites there is one for pumpkin bread. It's the first pumpkin bread I ever made that was a yeast bread instead of a quick bread. I often make this one into mini-buns, to use with various "sliders." I also enjoy their Pain aux Olives, which is their version of fougasse. 

My new best friend, so far as bread books is concerned, is _Flatbreads & Flavors_, by Jeffrey Alford and Naomi Duguid. It contains about 65 recipes for various flatbreads from all over the world, that they collected from indigenous people. Plus they include recipes for other dishes from each region where the bread comes from. All in all a rather unique book. 

FWIW, you can add herbs to just about any bread formula. I often do so with bold herbs such as rosemary.


----------



## Peixaria (Dec 31, 2008)

Thats what I'm lookin for, something for pilgrims. Since were at it, How about expanding this to a full on " Men on Bread " thread. If you got something good, please share it. Hey Rudde, I did in fact go to far one time. I actually invited a hardcore Irish nun , visiting America for a year [She was pretty] to come for lunch and cooked her the worst damn chicken wings ever. Needless to say I didn't get any. My bad, I am a sucker for Red Heads though, Oh Well If you've got something slick for baking bread blow this wide open


----------



## Peixaria (Dec 31, 2008)

Hey Brook, Appreciate the response I actually make a prtty good industrial loaf with a sponge. Yeast, sugar, warm water,and King Arthurs.2 hours. Then spill that into a larger bowl with 3-4 cups more flour, olive oil, water, salt, Fresh Rosemary, Thyme, and freshly ground Cardomann Coriander to give it some nose. Let rise again .Smack it down and let it rise in the baking dishes. Bake in an oiled unit. Let cool 20 minutes before carving.
I'm not sure where to get high gluten flour, Its not available on the OuterBanks unless you are making the trip to Sams Club inland, up the beach.
This is my steady, I have been experimenting with the baguette formula but still cannot get a chewy crust on the the high water recipe. High water recipe basically means that even with oil,dough is sticking to sides and bottom of bowl. Finished dough should be almost "pourable" and certainly water heavy. Most recipes call for this formula to be turned out onto a heavily floured surface. I just cant figure how to bake it and retain a chewy "French Crust".


----------



## Brook (May 27, 2009)

>I am a sucker for Red Heads though<

Hmmmmm? Didn't figure you for an adrenelin junkie. You know the most dangerous sports? Hunting the African big five, sky diving & base jumping, and hanging around with red-headed women. But I digress.

Instead of looking for "high gluten" flour, which really is a special-purpose product, just look for "bread flour." Most supermarkets carry it. When you get to the flour shelves look off to the side where they keep the specialty flours and smaller brands. 

If not, you can order it on-line. King Arthur does a vast mail order business, for instance. 

Personally, I prefer flours from Weisenberger Mills, 
http://www.weisenberger.com/category.cfm?Category=10&CFID=5083398&CFTOKEN=95053970 and buy it in 25 pound bags. You can store flour (also yeast) in the freezer, if you didn't know. You can get the actual high-gluten flour from them, but don't order a lot because you hardly ever use it.

Ironic side-note: I used Weisenberger products for years before realizing they are only 40 minutes away. Go figure! You turn your back for a minute and the stick a 150 year old mill in your backyard. 

Anyway, to develop a better crust, try steaming. Set the oven at least 25 degrees higher than the baking temperature. As it preheats put a baking pan below the rack that will hold your bread. 

When ready, slip the loaf into the oven and pour a cup of water into the pan. Close door immediately. A minute later spray the oven sides well with water. Repeat twice at thirty second intervals. Then lower the temperature setting to where you want it. 

See if that gives you the crust you want.


----------



## Brook (May 27, 2009)

*One More Thing*

Looking over your ingredients it could be that you're enriching the dough too much. You've got both sugar and olive oil. 

As a general rule, enriched doughs produce crusts totally different than you find on a baguette or similar loaf. "French" bread contains only flour, salt, yeast and flour. And it's not as high-hydration as you describe. 

For example, Pain de Campagne is 63% water. Generic French bread runs about 65% And Italian bread runs about 58%. Whereas high-hydration breads can run from 80-110%.


----------



## Peixaria (Dec 31, 2008)

I add the sugar at the beginning to feed the yeast in the sponge step. I also use a steam tray as you recommended. I have inquired as to the origin and author of the baguette recipe as it was emailed to me. Curious to see if it is the same book you are working from. Title of recipe is Pain De Lancienne. Iwas not aware that King Arthurs is in fact "enriched flour" I am pissed because the Food Lion here in Avon just decided to take it off the shelf.Blue and white bag. I watched a relative of mine make the baguette mix one time and hers was stripped down as you have described No sugar no salt no oil. There was also a step where the dough was refridgerated overnight in an effort to retard the rising process until the next day. I will get back with book info.


----------



## sprtsracer (Apr 27, 2005)

OK...hate to be a "purist", but forget the sugar. Here's the recipe and procedures!

1 package yeast or 1/3 of a cake of fresh yeast -not quick type

about 1+1/4 cups water- 1/4 cup warm (around 110 degrees) for dissolving yeast and 1 cup tepid or cooler for mixing dough

1 teaspoon kosher salt

about 3 cups unbleached flour or combo of flours (gluten plus regular or unbleached and bread flour)

cornmeal for baking 

"Proof" the yeast in the 1/4 cup of warm water. Dissolve the yeast and sprinkle the top of the mixture with a small amount of the flour. Do not mix in. Cover with a linen (or non-terry) tea towel. Let sit a few minutes until the flour "cracks" or begins to swell. 

Add the remaining water and salt and mix well. Slowly add flour, mixing till a slack (wet) dough appears. You may need more if it's a dry day and less if it's damp out. Weather makes a big difference on that. Mix till it forms a soft, slightly sticky dough and starts to pull away from the sides of the bowl. 

Put into a large oiled bowl (or clean the one you are mixing in) and cover with plastic wrap and a tea towel. *Do not *put in a warm place, room temp. is fine. If you are not in a hurry you can rise it in the refrigerator. It will rise a lot slower but it will rise. This is a good hint for people who work and want fresh bread. Make the dough one night and bake it the next. A long slow rise makes it taste better too. 

At room temp. allow to rise until doubled about 2+ hours. Punch down and allow to rise again about 1+ hours or half the time. 

Divide the dough in half and shape into two ovals about 3/4 of an inch thick. Fold the ovals into half, pinch the edges, then half again, pinch and again if necessary to form a long baguette. Roll back and forth, taper ends to smooth. Place on a cornmeal-sprinkled baking sheet with the seam on the bottom.

Lightly cover and allow to rise till more than doubled. This can take up to 2 hours. One half hour before - preheat oven to 450 degrees. Prior to baking place a baking pan of water in the bottom of the oven or on the lowest shelf. 

With a sharp razor or knife, slash the tops of the loaves in 3-4 places. Spritz or brush with water. 

Bake about 10 minutes, and very quickly spray 3-4 times during this time. Try not to keep door open too long each time to lose heat. 

Lower the temp. to 425 degrees. Switch pan positions. Bake till very golden about another 20 minutes or longer. 

Shut oven off and prop oven door open to release steam. Remove and pour out the pan of water if there is still a lot left in it. Allow loaves to "dry" out a bit, then place on a rack to cool. While it is tempting- DO NOT cut while hot. 

It also helps to have a baguette baking pan...which is nothing more than perforated metal semi-circular pans that will allow the baguettes to hold their shape while baking, and allows the bottom to bake evenly as well. They normally come "double sided" to accommodate two loaves

You don't even need butter for this as the bread is really quite good by itself! Very Rich!

NOTE: Make sure you use a clean bottle for "spritzing"! An old "hairspray" bottle will not work!!!


----------



## Brook (May 27, 2009)

>Iwas not aware that King Arthurs is in fact "enriched flour"<

If I implied that I'm sorry, but that isn't correct. I was using the word "enriched" to describe your dough, not the flour that was in it. Oils, sugars, eggs, milk and other additives are often used to create special breads. When used that way they are called enrichments, and the dough is an enriched dough.

Brioche and challa would be the most familiar enriched breads. 

>Title of recipe is Pain De Lancienne.<

Actually it's Pain a l'Ancienne. It's an important formula because it started the whole delayed fermentation and use of pre-ferments thing that Peter Reinhart and other artisan bread bakers have built on. 

If you have the original recipe as developed by Reinhart it should also specify instant yeast* rather than active dry. I won't go through all the directions (they take up 3 pages in _Bread Bakers Apprentice_), but the ingredient list is:

6 cups (27 ounces) unbleached bread flour
2 1/4 teaspoons (.56 oz) salt
1 3/4 tsp (.19 oz) instand yeast
2 1/4 plus 2 tbls to 3 cups (19-24 oz) water, ice cold
Semolina flour or cornmeal for dusting.

This produces a rustic (i.e., heavy hydration) dough, just under 80% water. 

Making the actually bread is a two day process because of the retarded fermentation step. 

Frankly, both because it is such a wet, sticky dough, difficult to work with, this is not the one I'd have recommend starting with. 

Yeast is a whole subject that could be discussed for days on end. But a couple of short comments.

First off, when blooming yeast, the modern approach is to feed it flour instead of sugar, as sprtsracer describes. However, if you use instant yeast, you don't need to feed it at all; don't even have to bloom it, in fact. 

*Instant yeast (aka, Saf, bread machine yeast, and a few other names) has 25% more live culture spores than dry active. In theory, you therefore reduce it by 25%. But several authorities (including Fleishman's and King Arthur) say to just use them 1:1, and most of the time I just use the same 2 teaspoons I'd go with using active dry yeast. 

Keep in mind that serious bread bakers use bulk yeast so have to measure or weigh it. If you're using envelopes, then definately just substitute one for one.

FWIW, envelopes contain 2 1/4 tsp.


----------



## Brook (May 27, 2009)

>An old "hairspray" bottle will not work!!! <

Ahhhh, but think of the nice stiff crust that would form.


----------



## sprtsracer (Apr 27, 2005)

>An old "hairspray" bottle will not work!!! <

"Ahhhh, but think of the nice stiff crust that would form." 

Yup! DANG!!! We should open a restaurant...or at least a beach concession, LOL!!!


----------



## Brook (May 27, 2009)

>...or at least a beach concession, LOL!!! <

'cept that would mean we'd have to stand around watching _other_ people fish. 

I reckon what we should do is open an on-the-beach cooking school, to teach folks how to care for and cook their catch. 

Ever tell you about the time I got in trouble that way? Used to fish a hot water discharge a lot, on Lake Michigan. This discharge is different than most because rather than flowing straight into the lake it parallels it first for about 350 yards. In short, an artificial river.

One of the other regulars was a chef I wanted to show a particular recipe to. I'll post it below. 

Anyway, I got the fire going nicely, all my tools ready, and yelled, "hey, Dave, get me a small one now; nothing more than four pounds."

Dave casts his spawn sack quartering upstream and before it had bounced down even to where he stood a steelie hit. Thing went about 3 ounces more than four pounds.

"Holy Christ!" I heard one of the newbies say to his friend. "Those guys actually catch them to order." And they came over wanting to know the trick for doing that. 

I was tempted to tell Dave that it was too big, and he should put it back because when I said nothing more than four that's what I meant. But I figure that would really have been pushing things. 

Anyway, the recipe sounds kind of weird. But the salt and sugar act as foils for each other, and the result is really good. It works with any salmonid, and probably would work with any oily salt water fish, like blues and macks:

1 salmon, steelhead, or trout filet
Lots of coarse salt.
Even more brown sugar
1 onion, sliced
Butter

On a sheet of buttered foil, lay out the filet, making sure you've removed all the pin bones. 

Cover the filet entirely with a heavy layer of salt, at least 1/4" thick. Cover the salt with a layer of brown sugar, about 1/2" thick. Spread the onions evenly over the sugar. Dot with butter. 

Seal the foil and cook directly in hot coals, turning once, about ten minutes per inch of thickness.


----------



## Peixaria (Dec 31, 2008)

Hey Brook, Sounds like the same book although I have not heard back from my source on title or author. Or is Pain De lancienne a faily common variety? I have had the salmon recipe presented and it is excellent.


----------



## Brook (May 27, 2009)

>Or is Pain De lancienne a faily common variety?<

Well, it is and it isn't. Under that name it was introduced by Peter Reinhart. 
Among his students it's the most popular formula, because it's the origination of the mehtods he uses. As he explains it: "It is not just the flavor of the bread that excites them, although without it the concpet would be interesting but moot. It is the idea of pressing into new frontiers of break making, of realizing that there are still areas of exploration not charted by even the professioal community."

It isn't just his students who feel that way. The bread making community is in love with this dough, and it is continually discussed, modified, and shared via baking websites and forums and person to person. 

Like everything else, however, it seems to morph. Both the name and recipe change over time---which is a natural progression, of course. 

But, as I said above, high-hydration doughs are not the easiest to work with. And I would not choose this one as my first foray into making artisnal bread.

>I have had the salmon recipe presented and it is excellent. <

Yeah, it is. But a lot of people have trouble wrapping their heads around the recipe. They just think the fish will taste overly salty---which it doesn't. I rarely share the recipe cold. Instead I make the dish, and then let them ask for the recipe.


----------



## Brook (May 27, 2009)

*Freezing Pre-ferments*

One aspect of multi-day breads that few people realize is that the pre-ferments can be frozen, and, in that state, last two days longer than forever. 

For instance, I make Pate Fermente in large amounts, divide it into recipe-sized quantities, and freeze them. Then, instead of having to plan a two-day bread making period, I make the same bread in only one day.

The trick is to put the frozen pre-ferment in the fridge the night before. Overnight the yeast wakes up and does its job. In the morning it will be in the same state as if you'd made it fresh the previous day. Remove it at least an hour before needed to let the chill go off and you're ready to go. 

For most people this is the way to go, because it provides the taste and texture benefits of retarted fermentation with the convenience of a single-day bread.


----------



## Peixaria (Dec 31, 2008)

Brook, Excuse me for sounding like a rooky,I actually do bake my share of bread. By PreFerment I assume you are referring to what I consider the "sponge" or another example would be what is active in sourdough starter? Is this correct. Or would it be my second step where the remainder of the flour and spices and whatnot are added. Also what is Pate Fermente ? and what type of bread do you build off of it? 
On the Salmon tip, I use a simple sauce that I mix to go on baked salmon. Bake a side of Salmon as you normally would with minimal spices no additional flavors. I use salt pepper and Cavenders all purpose Greek seasoning. Some butter on small sprigs of Dill on top of the fish. 
I mix 1/3 cup plain Yogurt with about the same amount of sour cream, maybe a TBLS or two of Helmans mayonaise. To this I add finely chopped Chives and Fresh Dill. Enough to make the blended mix appear slightly green. I make it ahead and refridgerate until the fish is ready 'Sauce Verte" Good hot or cold, if there is fish leftover. Good for summer dinners.


----------



## Brook (May 27, 2009)

That salmon sounds really good. I can see serving that with a whole, cold poached salmon for a great summer meal. Unfortunately, I'm no longer near the Great Lakes, so salmon is kind of cost prohibitive. 

I'm thinking you do understand pre-ferments, just that the term is unfamiliar to you. The term would apply to any fermentation process you start before actually mixing the dough.

So, yes, a sponge would be a pre-ferment, albeit a very short-term one. A sourdough mother would be the ultimate pre-ferment.

The idea is that the longer the yeast has to work the better. There are some other chemical reactions we try for as well, having to do with enzyme actions. With a cold retardation, for instance, many of the starches convert to sugar. But the yeast doesn't get to eat all of them. The result, in terms of flavor in the final loaf, can be incredible---much more full bodied and complex than the same loaf made merely by blooming the yeast and mixing all the ingredients. 

Now, whether a sponge or a sourdough or anything in between, the effect is that the entire mass is a leavening agent. That's why you let the sponge sit for at least 20 minutes before mixing in the balance of the flour etc.

Pate Fermentee is a pre-ferment used for many breads. I use it, for instance, with the Pane Siciliano I referred to earlier, and for Pain de Campange, which is the basic recipe I use for baguettes, epi, and other French type breads.

Here is Reinhart's formula for it:

*Pate Fermentee*

1 1/8 cups (5 oz) unbleached all-purpose flour
1 1/8 cups (5 oz) unbleached bread flour
3/4 tsp (.19 oz) salt
1/2 tsp (.055 oz) instand yeast
3/4 cup to 3/4 cup plus 2 tbls (6-7 oz) water at room temperature

1. Stir together the flours, salt and yeast in a 4-quart bowl (or in the bowl of an electric mixer). Add 3/4 cup of water, stirring until everything comes together and makes a coarse ball (or mix on low speed for 1 minute with the paddle attachment). Adjust the flour or water, according to need, so that the dough is neither too sticky nor too stiff. (It is better to err on the sticky side, as you can adjust easier during kneading. It is harder to add water once the dough firms up.)

2. Sprinkle some four on the counter and transfer the dogh to the counter. Knead for 4 to 6 minutes (or mix on medium speed with the dough hook for 4 minutes), or until the dough is soft and pliable, tacky but not sticky. The internal temperature should be 77F to 81F.

3. Lightly oil a bowl and trander the dough to the bowl, rolling it around to coat it with oil. Cover the bowl with plastic wrap and ferment at room temperature for 1 hour, or until it swells to about 1 1/2 times its original size.

4. Remove the dough from the bowl, knead it lightly to degas, and return it to the bowl, covering the bowl with plastic wrap. Place the bowl in the refgrigerator overnight. You can keep this in the refrigerator for up to 3 days or freeze it in an airtight plastic bag for up to 3 months. 

No matter what bread you'll be using it for, you have to take off the chill. Remove it from the fridge 2 hours before using. Cut it into 10-12 equal sized pieces and let it come to room temperature before using it to create the final dough.


----------



## Peixaria (Dec 31, 2008)

Brook, Thanx for your advice, Sportsracer, you too. And a special shout to Rudedog for his recipes. Haven't made any yet, was missing ingredients. Brook, I finally did here back and we are referring to the same book. I have been told by a little bird that I have a copy of Reinharts arriving for my birthday in late September. I plan to wear it out. Thanx guys.


----------

