# park Rangers cross the line



## surffshr (Dec 8, 2003)

copied from RDT board
To the editor, 
On June 12 2005 my family and I were on the beach in the Cape Hatteras National Seashore trying to enjoy the beach. But this is becoming more and more difficult to do as the N.P.S. is closing more and more of the beach. At this time the Hatteras inlet area was completely closed and a very large area of the South facing beach near the point was also closed. Forcing people to use the area between the Frisco ramp and the area that was and still is closed west of Cape Point. Because people are being denied access to other south facing beaches and are forced to use this one stretch of beach, it was and regularly is congested. So we drove east as far as we could go to keep from being on top of other beach goers. 
We ended up parking about thirty yards from the closed area. During the day we watched N.P.S. give out several tickets to people who had walked along the edge of the surf in the closed area. One lady had two dogs on leashes and walked along the wash with her dogs. I looked up and saw an NPS ranger traveling down the beach at a very high rate of speed, lights flashing and sand flying. I thought that perhaps someone was drowning. I was wrong. He was flying down the beach endangering my children and other beach folk to go harass the lady with the dogs. 
There is no excuse for this behavior. 
First there was no way for her to escape because the only way off the beach was to go to the Frisco ramp, the same one he had come over. Secondly he was traveling way over the posted speed limit on a beach that is congested with beach folk because our resources are being severely mismanaged causing a congestion problem. 
This behavior really got my attention and I began to quietly watch exactly what this NPS ranger did. He chewed the lady with the dogs out for at least a half of an hour and wrote what appeared to be a ticket. She was crying when she drove past us on her way off the beach. Then he harassed a couple of other ladies who walked down the wash from the point. It was getting late in the day and after these citizens were all out of sight another NPS truck pulled up near the first one. 
What happened next I could hardly believe. Two NPS rangers from the second truck joined the speedy ranger near the closure area. They waited in their trucks while the first ranger talked on his radio or cell phone. Then they all three got out of their trucks and started milling around just inside the closure area. Next I see two women in plain street clothes come over the dune north of me and inside the closed area while the NPS watched them. They walked into the middle of the closed area and the three rangers all three watched them. One of the NPS rangers hollered to the two women "go ahead " and these two opened their arms wide and ran south toward the edge of the closed area where we were. It was then that I saw bird chicks for the first time all day as they tried in vain to fly in order to get away from these two, they scrambled about thirty yards and stopped. The two women looked at the NPS rangers and turned and went back the way they had come from. The three rangers said nothing else to these two women whom I assume were " biotecs "and allowed them to go about their business. No harassing no tickets nothing, mind you they harassed and wrote tickets to everyone else who even walked in the wash. 
Then things got worse. The first speedy ranger got in his truck and left back towards the Frisco ramp. The other two came over to me and my family and told us we were going to have to move because they had spotted chicks near the closure fence and they were going to enlarge the closure area. 
Myself, my wife and one of my sons witnessed the NPS conspire with the biotecs to herd/chase/harass the chicks toward the fence in order to expand the closure while on the same afternoon give out tickets and harass beach folk who were no where near any chicks. 
This behavior is completely against the laws of our fine country and is typical of what we who use the CHNS have come to expect from NPS employees here on Hatteras Island. 
What do we have to do to get rid of the inept resource managers and superintendnts here at CHNS? They have an agenda to close all the beaches to the public and turn it into a bird sanctuary. 
Please help us to fight for free and open beaches Support OBPA CHAC & NC BBA write your congressman, Senators, President Bush ,the department of interior, NPS, your newspaper and any one else who will listen. 
If you don't we will lose this battle because among other things they don't play fair and they think they are above the laws they are supposed to uphold My name is Jay Hardin Po box 1234 Buxton NC 27920 252-995-4318 my wife Phyllis Hardin and my son Derek Hardin also witnessed this herding incident.



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## shaggy (Jun 18, 2003)

Now here comes the problems, fact or fiction, yeah beach area closed, definately no dogs to chase or maybe attack the chicks, then two women in street clothes walking onto the beach scaring the little fledglings in order to "enlarge" the closure? Sorry, don't buy it, on AI we deal with the closures, yeah we even bitch about it, but, if it looks like $h1t and smells like it it just might be.

Honesty is the best policy, and sorry for my attitude, but, are there pictures of the lady with the two dogs being harrassed, or the officers waving to the two ladies in street clothes as they openly made their way onto and across the "closed"section of the beach? This is how the crap gets worse, then we all wonder why. It is not us against them, it's about preservation, but beachgoers and their 4x's wanting to tan, might not be able to understand, nature first, because they were there before us, and hopefully, in spite of us will be there for our future generations, to enjoy.

Have Jeep will travel  

And, I will say, on AI, no hotel/motels, no "real" tourist (yeah, campsites, but off the ORV, where we pay to use, and deal with denied access due to storms, tidal surges and plovers), we accept (but yeah, get angry sometimes, okay, most times).

The BIGGEST thing we have to remember, we are visitors who reappear year after year for our fun, but the wildlife, may just be appearing year after year trying to survive.

They were there first, we ARE the intruders, and I am sure they would tell us, if tey were somewhat "HUMAN", sorry for the inconvenience, but we won't be staying long, especially knowing we are a major hassle.

Have Jeep will travel  

It does amaze me, we worry about Omega and the menhadden, but the birds that may "restrict" "our" areas, are more than just a bother, let us get to the beach, the water and the fish.

Talk about a "two-faced" BS, load of crap. Save the animal that is good for what I enjoy, but screw the birds that live and are trying to breed where I flush, oops, meant fish!

Least I can accept the fact that the birds nest on AI, and maybe, with the showing of me, me and me, won't............


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## Fox Watersports (Jul 17, 2005)

*What you don't get Shaggy*

Is that there are certain elements of the NPS in this park that are being very, very dishonest, in their actions, and their statements.................

It isn't about the birds making it, they are using the birds as muscle to impose their belief on how things should be here. Nothing more, nothing less.

Not saying all the park people are bad, or that the birds don't need help, just trying to point out what is really going on behind the scenes on this Island, and why so many of us that live here and own businesses are so upset at the way this group is acting.


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## Talapia (Apr 27, 2003)

Shaggy, I totally agree with you. Just 
because someone post something on
the internet does not make it true.
Actually, from my experience if you
ask ten eye witness you would 
probably get 10 different versions 
of the same story.


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## BrandyFish (Jul 27, 2005)

*both sides have got to work together*

i think both sides have valid points....although i do believe there may be some ( ok maybe alot) of exageration in the first story. 
i have been seeing this in a lot of places and i believe that SOME of the fishing community is going to extremes and as shaggy put it "Save the animal that is good for what I enjoy, but screw the birds that live and are trying to breed...". i agree with shaggy about the fact that they were there first and that their right to survive supercedes our right to fish, tan, and play in the water. 
but i do also believe that the agencies handling the situation may also be going to extremes in some cases. i have learned from fox that some of the closures are not for the plovers but are for other birds or animals that are not threatened or endangered by any means.
the problem about bickering about this on the forum is that everone on both sides are missing out on important FACTS, and the people in the community are losing some support due to the exaggerations of other members of their own or surrounding communities.


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## rattler (Jul 3, 2004)

its not like P.E.T.A. people throwing still living animals in a dumpster...or the VA guys going on safari in africa...documintation is all you need to prove the case...if it would have been on tape...2 arrests and 3 fired and maybe arrested...it the internet...don't believe it if you don't see it...JMHO


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## JAM (Jul 22, 2002)

For what its worth he owns a plumbing bussiness on the Island and the entire story is true... Big Government would never lie to you would they? Not just a post on another website that was the actual letter he wrote. If ya remember the story those birds went 1.73 miles on 2 day old legs Herded just the way Jay tells it... JAM :--| ....


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## Drumdum (Jan 6, 2003)

*Shaggy*

This is a question,not a prelude to a fight: Is AI a national wildlife refuge,as is Pea Island? 

You see,Shaggy,we are in a national park,and YES thier first priority is the wildlife,but there are closures that are there for plover chicks that have been deserted and the closure barriers are still there,and yes they will give you a ticket.. 

The birds are important,and the closures are something we are going to have to live with. I can't verify the story in the post above,can't say whether it is true or false,but this I can tell you,and if you lived here you would know this,there are certian park personell in place here that have an agenda,promise.. We have Pea Island as a refuge,and yes they have to protect birds in the national park as well,but they also have a duty to allow the public to enjoy God's gifts as well..

I really don't fish that much on the beach,I take Jody and Tater for rides. We look at the wildlife there deer,snakes,fish,birds,foxes,*****,and all the other wildlife that is on this island as well as the unique scenery. Fishing is only part of my love for this area,and I feel as though soon,very soon all of it will be closed and seen only by a select few,and you and I aren't one of those..


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## BaitWaster (Jan 8, 2004)

Talapia said:


> Shaggy, I totally agree with you. Just
> because someone post something on the internet does not make it true. Actually, from my experience if you ask ten eye witness you would
> probably get 10 different versions of the same story.


While I don't disagree with using caution about what is posted on the WWW, this is a copy of a letter to the editor and the person gives his name, address and phone number. Perhaps they misinterpreted what was happening, but I doubt they made it up.


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## RedskinFan228 (Jun 28, 2004)

From my take on all the posts both for the dang birds and against...I myself say we should stop playing god....if the birds are that endangered then nothing we do to save a few chicks will save the species we are just delaying the inevitable......that is just my 2 cents worth.....now has anyone thought that as long as the beaches are closed the NPS guys are guarenteed jobs....if the beaches were open there would be less need for them and thus less jobs. so as long as they can keep closing more beaches and writting more and more tickets then they can afford to keep more NPS rangers on staff. I have been comming to hatteras for 25 yrs and have never seen as many NPS guys as everyone is talking about. SO more closed beaches = more NPS rangers. called job securuty


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## shaggy (Jun 18, 2003)

DD, honestly don't know if it is a wildlife refuge (and will check into that one), but it a National Seashore Park, and the ponies and plovers are protected, access is limited to pay if you want access, so different than from down there where access is free, $70 can get you a permit to drive the beach, so we freely pay for the "opportunity", given the constraints, and limits Mother Nature may put on us.

Others, one stated if they can't survive, why intercede, we are just prolonging the inevitable, paraphrased, and to that then I would say leave Omega Protien alone, if the menhadden can't adapt, so be it. Also, then why set limits on size of catch, we are only prolonging certain decimation, because they all eventually get "keeper" size. Maybe I am just a freak type fisherman, get me two or three decent sized stripers, and I got fillets to last me quite a while, then pretty much fish for the fun, excitement and the not knowing, and release. If I won't be able to eat it, why keep it?

Also, heck, why keep us from driving on the dunes? It's "free Access", or I paid for it (though I paid knowing in advance the rules and regs), why pump sand back onto the beaches? Mother Nature, sooner or later will win.

Job security, seems to me, more area open to access, would mean more people, which would lead to more job opportumities to serve, protect and enforce. Limit on AI is around 150 vehicles, or something like that, and the Park Service employees, many of whom have been around for awhile, seem to be secure in their jobs.
Basically, on AI closures are temporary, and hopefully there also, yes they may get bigger at times, but, will say, as on AI, when the "human threat" is no longer a problem, then closures and markings should come down. 

DD, hopefully this KDH III, will get to fish with ya, instead of the all too breif chat we had last time, though meeting you was an honor and a priveledge, and am sure, if Tater is feeling up to snuff, he might just join ya. We behaved pretty good in front of the "first opposite sex" attendee, so am sure, would do fine around a fine young man!

Have Jeep will travel


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## surffshr (Dec 8, 2003)

*yes, but*

I agree birds sholud be protected.
But where there are no birds area should be quickly reopened.
armed guards are a little extreme.
Some reasonable action could be taken to keep birds from wondering onto extremely used area like cape point.
The real problem is to me the Park Serivce is not trying to work with the public at this time, rather they are mindlessly trying to enforce rules.....Which gives them alot of power, and a reason to strap on the weapon...quite a trip for a park ranger.
Rangers are the law enforcement end of the park, they are not the biologists or educators of the park, who in my experience have a totally diferent mindset in their relationship with the park users.


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## fishbone4_14_74 (Feb 7, 2005)

ok here is the thing the plover isnt endangered it is threatened,, very big difference.. also the mismanagment of the Cape point area was done by the NPS when they refused to let the gator and snake festered swamp not drain,, which in turn flooded out the birds to the beach,, and also bringed in alot more preators,, now Nixon him slef set a bill back in the early 70's allowing Off road usage now becuase the NPS messed things up we are the ones paying and we are the ones to be made at fault. there is alot more to this than the birds,,,its is a power struggle for what was once ours the plover is not a native to the hatters areas.. you know im just as pissed about the clousers as anyone if not more,, everyday its like mor eand more of what we love is being endangered by some veg head or someone wanting peace. when they dont realize that alot of this stuff is what made our country what it is today,, i mean hell look at the P.E.T.A issue tossing dead dogs they had killed from shelter in trash cans ,, come on now thats people who love and protect animals,, also in turn eveything has a right to have a chance and live on,, but ther eis better ways on doing it,, like taking the bird to teh natural areas that it is found in or put them on some farm in ohio like the Osprey it might be cheaper than what they are doing and better managment.. you CANNOT MICRO_MANAGE a brid like this,, but also in turn i bet if you had a saber tooth tiger out there and it was the last 2 pairs out there they would be hunted and killed ,,, or even a t-rex as rare as it would be,, something stinks about all these clousers and its not the birds.


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## pumpkinboy (Jul 18, 2005)

flooding did not drive the birds to the beach. Year round closures allowed the area to become vegitated. Plovers nest on open beach. Years ago, the whole tip at the point was open and sandy. Now most of it supports vegitation. This reduces plover habitat, just another example of park mis-management. These folks want us out, period. I dont trust a one of them. When I was a kid coming out to the outer banks in the '70's I thought the rangers were the coolest people around. I have a very different opinion of the thugs who currently run the park.


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## Drumdum (Jan 6, 2003)

Shaggy,understand,I do not carry the same thoughts as the other posters. I'm not disgruntled with NPS,just some of thier employees that take it upon themselves to make it "thier park" those two words have been quoted many times from these said employees. As I understand it at least,it is "our park",as well as the critters that live there. Compairing Omega,and these birds is like "apples and oranges" Omega Protien IS RAPEING the resource,we generally as sportsmen release our catch,unless it's an edible fish,then we go strickly by the limits drawn out.. As far as the birds,we are not killing these birds,we would just like to co-exist,allowing the birds thier chance at life and still allow us reasonable access..

BELIEVE ME when I say there are ways the NPS and the users could work together with a feasable solution,allowing the critters space to breed,raise thier young,and then fly away and still allow reasonable access. The "tool" that is being used is the ESA,and the threat of Defenders of Wildlife's law suit. As NPS has not made a plan(which could have done yrs ago)they have to go by the most strengent plan possible,with the blessings of the NPS birdlady(loooong story),and her followers.. These overzealous employees are using all this to thier advantage,and YES they do want us off this beach,promise..



If it's too rough for the tube,Tater and I will most certianly take ya up on the offer. Wilbur and you guys are a hoot,and would love to fish with ya.. Although last yr,as I recall,during the fling,I was jiggin up stripers and big drummies on a spinnin rod,so it might be hard to drag me from here if'n its calm...


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## AL_N_VB (Apr 3, 2002)

Drumdum said:


> Although last yr,as I recall,during the fling,I was jiggin up stripers and big drummies on a spinnin rod,so it might be hard to drag me from here if'n its calm...


Ya FHB!...hope ta see ya or feesh with ya this winter.....deffinitely gonna get this albatross off my back!


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## RedskinFan228 (Jun 28, 2004)

> Others, one stated if they can't survive, why intercede, we are just prolonging the inevitable, paraphrased, and to that then I would say leave Omega Protien alone, if the menhadden can't adapt, so be it. Also, then why set limits on size of catch, we are only prolonging certain decimation, because they all eventually get "keeper" size. Maybe I am just a freak type fisherman, get me two or three decent sized stripers, and I got fillets to last me quite a while, then pretty much fish for the fun, excitement and the not knowing, and release. If I won't be able to eat it, why keep it?


Shaggy as others have stated comparing omega and creel limits to the threatened/endangered plover is not comparing apples to apples. Now if we were hunting the plover I would say that we should intervene. However they are endangered because of natural preditors, pollution and just the fact that they nest by the tide line so a storm or extreamly high tide will kill nesting chicks. These birds are not the brightest animals and nature not people is just allowing survival of the fittest. as others have said if they really want to save these couple birds move them or raise them in captivity. If they do not want to do this and want to temporairly close a small portion for them fine but the whole point for a couple chicks. If they are monitoring them then they know where they are at all times. They could kep the section closed where they are each day... but it is getting out of hand there is more about the closures than the plover and if you cannot see that then it is sad. Nothing personal and when i say let nature take its course that is just my opinion...


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## shaggy (Jun 18, 2003)

Okay, I purposely threw out some "out of context" comparisons, but I will stand by my "why replenish the beaches with sand and the dunes", Mother Nature will eventually "win", and if they AIn't suppose to be there, and it is natures course of action so be it. Me personally feel that it is Omega hurting our stretch of the Bay here, but nothing Maryland can do about it.

Now, maybe Virginia learned something by taking the green turtle eggs, yeah a rarity in those necks, from the beaches of the area to avoid the "well, it's only one turtle, we got businesses here that won't survive, besides it was only ONE turtle, and it isn't natural, and the turtle may not be endagered, but threatened, but we have to worry about the economy" syndrom. Like I stated, no businesses on AI, so no threat, but natural or, relocated, and I do not know all of the "ifs ands or buts" of this particular situation, and the closures should not enlarge, but should move, but getting pissed off and ranting and raving, isn't the way I feel it should be handled.

Now if the Park Rangers are indeed overstepping their boundries, something I must say doesn't happen on AI, then I apologize.

Maybe NC has their agenda with the plover, Virginia has theirs with the menhadden, and Maryland, and the rest of the Chesapeake Bay are in decline. Now, not saying Maryland has all, or any of the answers, just, me, I abide by the decisions set forth, pro fisheman, sunbather or 4 wheeler, but don't mnid the occasional pro nature either.

As stated, far removed form the plovers of NC, closer to the effect of Omega, and at home on AI, beaches closed by pipings or tides.

Have Jeep will travel


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## DERFM (Jun 19, 2004)

*AI Rangers*



> Now if the Park Rangers are indeed overstepping their boundries, something I must say doesn't happen on AI


gotta disagree with ya here shag ;
remember last fall when they decided to close the beach during the tournment & imposed the 3 tide change rule before they would open it back up.......hummmm there is no rule ;just pulled that one out of their hats . this spring they shut it down 1 nite & opened the next am .
just another example of 'we are gonna do what we want to do when we want to cause we said so'.....
derf


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## shaggy (Jun 18, 2003)

Point taken DERF, did forget that one, probably because of work wasn't able to make it out there much this Spring. But then, Fall is a coming.

Have Jeep will travel


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## Drumdum (Jan 6, 2003)

> but getting pissed off and ranting and raving, isn't the way I feel it should be handled.


 Shaggy,I am by no means pissed.. Like I said above,just want to live on this island co-exist with the birds with a fair access plan..



> the closures should not enlarge, but should move,


 I agree totally... Come down here and you will see them do both...



> why replenish the beaches with sand and the dunes", Mother Nature will eventually "win", and if they AIn't suppose to be there, and it is natures course of action so be it.


 This is also something we agree on as well.. Believe it or not it was said by an ole timer down here many yrs ago when they first put dunes down here that they weren't the natural way and the beaches will be no more. Look at what mans intervention has done by jetty in OI to the N beaches. Look at Avon's beaches since all these million dollar homes with 9 bathrooms have been built along the beaches.Why didn't NC just build a bridge over the "new inlet" formed by Izzy,instead of sanding it in? Then you would have had another opening for soundwater and ocean water to move through during storms.Too simple I guess..  Can remember a time,before these homes that you could walk out on Avon Pier and it was half way down the pier that you actually walked over the water.. Look at Va Beach or Sandbridge,we could go on and on with this,but man's intervention breeds intervention,I think we are in agreement..  

When the NPS came they made a national park out of our beaches,that was great keeps "man's intervention down,but (as promised) there should be access to these beaches. It's not asking much to make a plan for wildlife and fishermen to co-exist,IMHO..




I'm assuming you don't think this to be a nationwide thing. Granted,at face value, it's not,and if you look at the small pic you WOULD WONDER what all the fuss is about. The big picture is that we are not the only fishermen and hunters that are being harrased by these big lobby and money groups.. That is what we are trying to tell folks,is that it could be you next,if we don't do something to disable some the the power they have now...


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## JAM (Jul 22, 2002)

Well I am Pissed and fustrated as well.. :--| I also don't think I am ranting I am provideing information as it is recieved. I don't just care about the Point it is the entire Islands welfare that I am concerned with. It boils down to a total mismanagement thing. In Mass. the closures for the birds are 200 ft by 200ft, which is manageable (also productive as well 2.69 fledglings per pair) but when you have one closure that is over 200 acres and loose the birds in it every other day and can't keep track of where they are how is that helpful for the species? They could be killed while they are lost. By being overzealous with the clousures, attracting birds where they don't belong I see it as them harming not helping. They have been offered neting free to keep the birds safely contained in an area, they refused. All I have seen from this community is a helping hand lent to them (NPS) only to be bittin and bittin and bittin. What would amaze me is that if the Closed Areas were 100% opened as fast as they where closed without any remnants or signage left over. They have not done that @ the HAT Inlet, signs were left with an un-enforceable and Illegal closure @ the end extending 150 foot into the sound (I did not know that NPS can shut down a portion of a waterway without Coast Guard approval) , guess the Snorkel Terns are back. If one were on a boat in that area YAK or Motor you would be breaking the law without being able to even see a sign of a water closure. It is the little games like this that frustrate me to no end, and people wonder why there is a mis-trust between the community and the NPS. From my stand Point the Resource Mgt Team act like spoiled little children and try to see what they can GET AWAY with next, it is truly pitiful. In the Air Force or any other branch of the service (hell if they want to be like a Para-military Organization then act like one) if a Commander gets relieved of his duties the entire unit is broken up no if ands or buts. This is to prevent the underlings from carrying on the old regimens intentions, which can be so instilled that become reflex opposed to thought process. There is still no control over the kiddies, I am also amazed that the way ups in the DOI and USFWS would continue to let this go on all it takes is one look @ that colored map with the what’s open and what’s closed on it to see the blatant planning of the closing of the beaches right before the negotiated rule making process begins for ORV mgt Plan. There are resource closures on both sides of every ramp on the Island, (GEE DEM BIRDS IS SO SMART DEY CAN READ RAMP NUMBERS) do they honestly think that we are IDIOTS without a clue. IMHO a top to bottom re-structuring of personnel is long over due and the only way to start (if its possible) the healing of the mis-trust between the community and the NPS…To be honest with you they could not give a rats ass about this community, this Island or the birds or wether the beaches are open or closed they are to happy livin of the Gov't TIT JMHO…… JAM


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## fish militia (Nov 1, 2004)

I twas annouced in the Va pilot yesterday...that An Endangered Green Turtle had layed its eggs in a high traffic area in VA beach..This is not common Green Turtle nesting ground.

all the eggs were carefully removed by biologists and put back in the sand the same order in which they were removed..in a more remote area..

The biologists went on to say..That is what important to move the eggs to insure their survival and went on to say ...that flying the hatchlings to Florida(where they are most predominate) might be the best answer...for their survival...

WHY CAN'T THE NPS DO THE SAME???

Simply move the birds to a better location and leave the beaches open..

It also goes to show...The Va Beach politicians are not going to allow their beaches to be closed for a nest...the nest was simply moved to a better area..

So..where is our politicians..are they helping ..NO..where is the OBX board of Commisioners???...where is Mark Basnight??? :--|


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## JAM (Jul 22, 2002)

Ain't no hole to fill in this time huh Rob  JAM


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## tw (May 1, 2003)

Thanks to all of you that keep us enlightened. I'd dare say if we spent most of our spare time setting around sipping wine and conspiring with our well to do friends instead of fishing. This would not be a problem. Fish Militia may've hit the nail on the head. What we may need to do is pool our resources, charter the plane to fly the chicks south. 
This has certainly opened my eyes, I just this morning joined both ODPA and NCBBA. No longer a bystander am I. 
Any of you guys or gals know anything about organizing a campaign, soliciting funds, lobbist, and such. It seems we are by our selves a very small announce to the powers that be. But collectively we'd be a roar they couldnot so easily dismiss.
Since the closures are federal maybe a mass gathering of 4X4's with rodracks and coolers circirling the capital building. At a very slow speed would bring national attention, to what appears to be a problem brought on by a very small minority of individuls to a small part of mother earth that we all, even the birds, have a right to.
I'll get off my soapbox and give some else a turn. tx, Tim


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