# ...buying distance



## Ralph (Aug 1, 2002)

i just read a thread started by fishMortican...
and it occurred to me what if all the casting competitors were required to use the exact same equipment; kinda like they do in professional car racing. who would have the advantage then?


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## INDIO (Jul 10, 2002)

*brain workin overtime*

Ralph,

been a long time Ralph. 
hope everthing has been ok . tough question
but a good one . i am still looking for for the 
my answer . as they say its all in the technique.

never stop trying . :beer:


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## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

That's a very good question ralph. 

Do you mean tourney casters vs fishermen or tourney guy vs tourney guy with equal gear??

The biggest problem I see with "equal" equipment is the differences in technique. Some guys hit the rod hard and fast and need a lot of reel control to keep the spool under control. Some guys can get the same distance with a longer slower windup which makes the reel a little easier to control.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the rod/reel combo that works best for one guy may not necessarily work the best for another. The worst thing for the average caster would be to put a rod that is just too stiff in his (or her) hands. 

I do believe though, given the same equipment and time to practice that the experienced tournament caster would still come out on top in a distance comp.

Just my opinion,

Tommy


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## Don B (Jul 28, 2001)

Good thought!

I would love to see Tommy go to the oche with a Snoopy rod and reel.

I would even lend him mine.

Maybe next year.
Don


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## RockhopperUK (Jul 13, 2005)

I think if you seen Neil Mackellow casting with a carpet caine or Rojer Mortimore casting with only the rod butt (without any tip) on his knees it would answer the question for you.

Tom.


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## Black Beard (Jan 25, 2001)

While to and extent I agree with what you say Tommy, Tom also makes a valid point.

I have long been keen to run a tournament where all equipment is the same with strict limits on what you can and cannot do to it.

Years ago before we started Sportcast UK and Sportcast International a guy called Topper Brown started running a different type of tournament to try and make the field a little more level. It was hugely successful for a number of years.

We had three casts in three events:

2oz on 0.25mm mono with leader

4oz level line - no shock leader 

150g on 0.35mm with leader.

There were individual event winners but the biggy was your best cast in each event added together.

It often produced a very different set of results!

In 1985 I was winning pretty much everything and a couple of guys starting saying I was only casting so far because Terry was making special extra powerful rods for me. And they were right, in part, he did make me a special rod. My Quattra Sport was a good bit softer than the standard Sport.

They of course said rubbish, until a friend brought his production sport to compare with mine, they disappeared rapidly after comparing the two rods!

But I will always remember Topper suggesting it would make the competition more interesting if we half the width of the court!

There were many dissenters, but I said if that was what he wanted to do then I would practice until I could keep all nine casts in court. Sadly it never happened but I did practice and yes, after a while I was able to keep the lead within bounds at maximum range.

Yes, I took the tip of my Quattra and put a tip ring in the top of the butt and cast 558ft on the UKSF court.

Yes, I cast 678ft with a 12ft carpet cane with three guides and the tip of a boat rod taped to it to make a tip guide on the UKSF court.

When I was in the Petro-Chem procurement game my boss told me a good buyer could buy anything. I believe a good caster can cast anything, if they practice and try hard enough!

So, how about it guys? It would put a stop to 'your rods better than mine' and give a true reflection of one's ability

BB


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

I would think it would be like the pga tour handing out identical clubs to every player for a given tournament- it would be interesting perhaps- but without the equipment that you have honed your skills on- you likely will not perform your best. 

To me in some way I'm not sure that it would be "leveling" the playing field. Some would no doubt find it to be a handicap to there best game. I doubt if you put a soft mushy feeling rod in the hands of Danny M or Tommy they would be able to achieve their "best" distances with it. As Tommy pointed out a mega stiff rod is not going to allow many casters to achieve their personal "best" distances either. And of course the idea of a tournament is to determine what your best distance can be- within the general parameters of the rules surrounding equipment and line size, shocker, etc.

If the idea is to level the playing field, then handicapping can certainly be done- tho I'm not sure what it proves if I am given say, a 50 meter + to my handicap- all that means is if I out "score" my average on a given day that I may have performed better (according to my handicap) than someone who has a bad day and scores slightly less than their average. That does not equate to me being a better caster than they are, however. 

I don't see "leveling" the playing field as realistically possible- and not sure that it would prove anything- 

Just my .02

Mark


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## Railroader (Apr 13, 2005)

It could be pretty interesting, as long as NONE of the contestants had ever put hands on "Rod-X" before.

If each contestant had to learn and adapt to "Rod-X" as the day progressed, the longest cast at the end of the day would be a pretty good indicator of the best _overall_ caster...


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## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

Railroader said:


> It could be pretty interesting, as long as NONE of the contestants had ever put hands on "Rod-X" before.
> 
> If each contestant had to learn and adapt to "Rod-X" as the day progressed, the longest cast at the end of the day would be a pretty good indicator of the best _overall_ caster...



Or a pretty good indicator of how quickly "Rod X" would shatter.....


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## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

I have also seen Roger cast over 500' with the butt section of a borrowed rod. That made quite an impression on me. 

Sound technique gives you the best bang for the buck. That holds true with any equipment. When you start getting into the tourney zziplexes and centurys you are really fine tuning the equipment to best suit your style and power. I've had the latest greatest _expensive_ zziplex that just did not work for my style. You don't know until you spend some time in the field with a rod.

Reel tuning is much the same. I've picked up the reel used by a top US caster, strapped it on and proceed to a world class birdnest. Way too fast for me....  . You have to find out what works for you and fine tune it.

Same rod, same reel for everybody would be a lot of fun and could make for interesting results but I don't think it would give you the true measure of the best caster. The guy that is most adaptable to the new gear would come out on top.

Again just my opinion,

Tommy


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

> If each contestant had to learn and adapt to "Rod-X" as the day progressed, the longest cast at the end of the day would be a pretty good indicator of the best overall caster...



Interesting.... I think it would give some indicator of the ability to "adapt" to strange equipment--- but

Lets say you have a large and diverse field of casters that run the gamut from small wiry fast types to large rugged strongman types.

Any brand X rod is certain to be a better automatic fit to some casters than others- meaning someone lucked out by the brand x selection- so it is now no longer a matter of measuring adaptability, at least for those folks that the brand x rod just happens to closely resemble their current equipment/fits their style.

to those that Brand x is a poor fit for- they are being handicapped at least more so than those that the equipment naturally fits- perhaps by the luck of the draw, but nontheless...


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## surffshr (Dec 8, 2003)

Ralph said:


> i just read a thread started by fishMortican...
> and it occurred to me what if all the casting competitors were required to use the exact same equipment; kinda like they do in professional car racing. who would have the advantage then?



However, we are not built the same in many different 
Thus, f the one rod matched the size and style of a certain caster. That caster would have a huge advantage.
So I am inclined to believe the one rod theory dosen't tend to even thigs out.


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## Ralph (Aug 1, 2002)

*its very interesting ...*

the direction this thread took. 
the concensus [while limited] seems to be distance, in fact, can be brought. and if history has taught us nothing, it has taught us if there is a way to gain a competitive advantage over your opponent you will find[buy] it. 
you don't have to go too far back in history to support the hypothesis. here are just a few examplesthat come to mind: tim donaghy, jason giambi, floyd landis, steve letarte, mark mcguire, sammy sosa, barry bonds, mclaren, chicago "black sox", enron, bill belichick,george w. bush[i voted for him so don't get crazy]. i recognize these are clear examples of of how NOT to gain a competitive advantage but i believe i have made my point. 
so hypothetically, if i am planning to organize a distance casting competition i would certainly consider the fact that i could potentially draw more participants if they honestly felt they could win or at least compete on a leveled playing field, if you will.
to be continued...


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## Ralph (Aug 1, 2002)

INDIO said:


> Ralph,
> 
> been a long time Ralph.
> hope everthing has been ok . tough question
> ...


indio. life is good; thanks for asking. i hope to see you soon on the casting court or just fishin somewhere.


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## Ralph (Aug 1, 2002)

Tommy said:


> That's a very good question ralph.
> 
> Do you mean tourney casters vs fishermen or tourney guy vs tourney guy with equal gear??
> 
> ...


hi tommy, i was referring to all casters in general. imho fisherman will always catch fish, despite themselves. the law of large number applies in their case. simply stated the more you do something the higher the probablilty that you will get it done. fisherman don't need help from us. they catch fish!
i don't disagree with your comment, the more experienced caster might prevail over the less experienced ones. having said that i do feel the "equal" equipment is just one way to level the playing field. as a practical matter it would suck to have to supplying lets say ten identical AFAW rods. its just something to think about.
thanks for chiming in.
see u on 10/6.


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## Ralph (Aug 1, 2002)

Black Beard said:


> While to and extent I agree with what you say Tommy, Tom also makes a valid point.
> 
> I have long been keen to run a tournament where all equipment is the same with strict limits on what you can and cannot do to it.
> 
> ...


neil, you be the man. i suspected that my idea was not a novel one. someone had to think of it before me. it wans't long ago the sportscast USA allowed competitors to compete amongst their repective casting classes i.e. A, B, C, D. and at one time competitors were only allowed five casts, and only the best three were added and scored. 
i have seen you cast at your "going the distance" seminars so i am a believer. you are preaching to the choir brother. you and tommy essentially said the same thing; good technique is critical.
andy miller and peter thain did the on their knees demonstration. pretty impressive diplay of good technique. those guys are no joke.
using all the same equipment could be considered the "masters" event and could be just one part of the many events held that day. imho.


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## Ralph (Aug 1, 2002)

Railroader said:


> It could be pretty interesting, as long as NONE of the contestants had ever put hands on "Rod-X" before.
> 
> If each contestant had to learn and adapt to "Rod-X" as the day progressed, the longest cast at the end of the day would be a pretty good indicator of the best _overall_ caster...


Railroader, i like the idea of the mystery Rod-X.


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## Ralph (Aug 1, 2002)

surffshr said:


> However, we are not built the same in many different
> Thus, f the one rod matched the size and style of a certain caster. That caster would have a huge advantage.
> So I am inclined to believe the one rod theory dosen't tend to even thigs out.


surffshr, i really racked my brain to find another sport(s) as an example to give you and the only thing i could thing of is weight lifting or shot putting. competitors of every size and one constitent item to lift. all saying f/u to the law of gravity.
but there is more than one way to skin a cat. other ways other sports have addressed the issue of a leveled the playing field is to compete by age group such as the seniors, or by amatuers versus professionals status, or by gender, men versus women.
AND we can probably get some good ideas from the fly fishing folks [thought to be the more arguably the intectuals of the angling world]. they have been holding successful competitions for quite some time 
okay now i am done.


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## surffshr (Dec 8, 2003)

Ralph said:


> surffshr, i really racked my brain to find another sport(s) as an example to give you and the only thing i could thing of is weight lifting or shot putting. competitors of every size and one constitent item to lift. all saying f/u to the law of gravity.
> but there is more than one way to skin a cat. other ways other sports have addressed the issue of a leveled the playing field is to compete by age group such as the seniors, or by amatuers versus professionals status, or by gender, men versus women.
> AND we can probably get some good ideas from the fly fishing folks [thought to be the more arguably the intectuals of the angling world]. they have been holding successful competitions for quite some time
> okay now i am done.


In lifting no mechanical advantage is gained by the bar or weights.
Your ability to bend or not bend a rod will either help or hinder your cast


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## Black Beard (Jan 25, 2001)

Hey Ralph, long time no see, keeping well I hope.

***********************************

Okay, how about a full test of ones abilities with a pole, we follow the Format I mentioned earlier - see below - but are able to use only one rod to cast all three events. Any reel you like but on one rod of your choice.

2oz on 0.25mm mono with leader

4oz level line - no shock leader 

150g on 0.35mm with leader.

Any takers?

BB


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## johnp (Mar 5, 2004)

now that's something to think about, neil. lots of issues come into play with that format and a level playing field is closer at hand.

ralph, great to hear you will be joining us next week. look forward to seeing you again.

john


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## big brother (May 15, 2002)

this entire thread reminds me of the Diversity Committee here on campus. they try to make everyone equal on all levels. if you are going to run such a tourney, I can hear it now, he's throwing a high swing pendulum and i can't do that or no "X" casts allowed and for goodness sake ralph and i would be thrown in the ditch for trying to cast backwards. i just don't see it.
charlie


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## surffshr (Dec 8, 2003)

Just throw sinker and take all the varaibls out of it. :spam:


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## Ralph (Aug 1, 2002)

*Amendment I*

hi charlie, sometimes some good comes from an open dialogue. how is the shoulder? 

neil, all is well here in states. despite the value of the us dollar and the loon being about equal. i hope we can fish together soon.

johnp, just came back from practice. right about 600' give or take a foot or two. see u saturday.


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

*Now that*

SCUSA has added the two additional weight events- 100 gram and 175 gram- it does to some extent allow some participants to have a better chance- for instance the 100 gram weight certainly takes more technique and less "muscle" to reach max distance- that weight class is still new (to USA) and will take awhile for some to get the hang of. 

In fact I think a lot of casters have shyed away from focusing on the 100 gram because it is more difficult to get it to "fly" and carry the line. 

Not to mention the cost of setting up a rod and reel to perform ideally with the lighter lead.

Still- the lighter leads may be an ideal introduction for the younger ones and the ladies who might want to give the casting court a go.

As long as the rules stipulate the longest distance- irregarldess of weight thrown- determines the winner- then I think the playing field is somewhat leveled by the introduction of the new weight classes- 

Again just 

my thoughts

SC


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## Ralph (Aug 1, 2002)

Surf Cat said:


> SCUSA has added the two additional weight events- 100 gram and 175 gram- it does to some extent allow some participants to have a better chance- for instance the 100 gram weight certainly takes more technique and less "muscle" to reach max distance- that weight class is still new (to USA) and will take awhile for some to get the hang of.
> 
> In fact I think a lot of casters have shyed away from focusing on the 100 gram because it is more difficult to get it to "fly" and carry the line.
> 
> ...


hi surf cat,
i agree!


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