# How much muscle can you put into a cast without overloading a rod?



## O'Shaughnessy (Jul 17, 2013)

Hi guys, 

I have a Ballistic Saltiga 35-405G (the middle weight one, 4-12oz. lures) with an Avet MXL and an OM 11' spinning rod rated (I think) 5-10oz. with a 4th-gen. Penn Spinfisher.

I can honestly say I've never cast either rod as powerfully as I think I should for distance because I'm afraid I'm going to break them. I've also never loaded them properly or reached my distance potential.

A lot of the YouTube videos out there showcase telephone-pole competition rods that guys are whipping around, but most of the everyday "fishing" (as opposed to tournament casting) rods on the market just seem fragile.

Question: If I put 6nbait (or even 8nbait) on my middleweight Saltiga and really throw it hard with a pendulum cast, is there any danger of breaking it? Would I be better off with the 6-15oz. model or is that overkill? 

I'm not placing any bets on the OM, but as long as I stay at 50-75% of the weight rating, can I throw it hard without cracking something?

I'm interested in starting to work on my technique, but I'm lacking a little confidence in the hardware.

Thanks!

O'Shaugh


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## BlaineO (Jan 22, 2001)

O'Shaugh...

If you use good technique (loading the rod well into the butt, not just the tip), and the correct size shock leader, you should be OK. The rods will get "soft" at the higher end of their capacity, but if they have not been damaged (usually nicked or scrapped), you will be fine.

Items that really limit how much the rod gets loaded are the shock leader, and the caster's ability to lock the spool with their thumb, or hold the line with a single finger with a spinning reel.

If you tip load the rod with poor technique, and/or use a shock leader that is over sized, rods can be damaged well below their rated capacity.

Good luck,

Blaine


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## dsurf (Aug 5, 2003)

O' shaugh.....I've owned several of the Ballistic..... stiff tip and butt section, with softer mid section. Recommend being very careful with the pendulum cast on this rod.......just does not lend itself to that cast except in the very low end of the weight range. There was a guy who had a utube video performing a pendulum cast with the 40-405, rated 6-15 oz.........he went into some detail on this site explaining his experiences......and, if I remember correctly, he was only throwing 3oz.....he achieved very good distances, but stayed in very low range of weight........here's the video. He bends the rod all way thru the butt section, and with only 3 oz.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRgg32iAGoM&noredirect=1

Can't find his posts on this site, but did find his post on an Au. sites....His post went into more detail on the post I've been unable to find.........He's a tournament caster from Australia .......but using his Ballistic for fishing only in the lower weight ranges). Again, he's talking about his 40-405......
I know some folks on here talk about power casting 8 or more oz with this rod........everyone's power cast is not necessarily the same.....good luck.
http://www.sydneyangler.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=15597


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## Rich60 (Apr 11, 2010)

I cant speak to the Daiwa Saltiga but I own several OM heavers 11 and 12 footers regular and CPS models. I have thrown them with 8-12 oz and a chunk or head for all they are worth and have never had an issue. I dont pendulum cast with them but will generally use an OTG and go easy in and hard out when I cast. I find for me that their sweet spot is 6-8 oz with a chunk or head. I do own several other Daiwa heavers but I don't push them as hard as I do the OMs.


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## BlaineO (Jan 22, 2001)

I suppose the Ballistic still has a limited lifetime warranty. I would pound the puddin' out of it, and if it breaks using a payload within the specified range, have it replaced.
The OMs are good within their range, I've tested more than a few....

Blaine


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## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

Just a thought on rod loading and distance.

Bending (loading) a surf rod does not necessarily equal extreme distance. 

The *real secret * (drum roll please..... lol) to distance is acceleration of the sinker. To best accelerate the sinker it needs to travel through the largest arc possible. Once the sinker is moving and traveling through a wide arc the rod can be hit _hard_ without an extreme bend. There is less bend due to the sinker position relative to the rod tip (outside). The hit is actually easier on your body as the you are hitting a lead that is already moving.

This exposes one of the weaknesses of the Hatteras cast. The almost straight back toss leaves little room to accelerate the sinker. One tip that will help (seems a little counterintuitive) is to avoid the urge to turn into and hit the rod while the sinker is still traveling away from you. While this will give a deeper bend, it does not mean a longer cast. Wait until the sinker is as far away as possible, then turn slowly allowing the sinker to accelerate toward the target. Hold off on the real power until you get your hands into position (left in front of face and right just in front of your shoulder), then smash away.

Hope this helps,

Tommy


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## O'Shaughnessy (Jul 17, 2013)

Thanks for all the insights guys, I appreciate them!

O'Shaugh


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## ez2cdave (Oct 13, 2008)

I know this is a 2014 thread, but I found Tommy's comments to be really interesting and was hoping for more discussion about rod loading and actual casting distance in fishing situations.


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## Mastrbaitr (May 7, 2014)

ez2cdave said:


> I know this is a 2014 thread, but I found Tommy's comments to be really interesting and was hoping for more discussion about rod loading and actual casting distance in fishing situations.


He pretty much sums it up nicely. Even the drawback of the hatteras cast.


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## ez2cdave (Oct 13, 2008)

Mastrbaitr said:


> He pretty much sums it up nicely. Even the drawback of the hatteras cast.


The reason I asked is that the Hatteras cast is often used on piers. I am wondering if he could suggest another cast that would be better in that situation?


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## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

The Hatteras cast is my go-to cast from the beach or pier. If I'm alone on a deserted stretch of beach i'll throw a full on tournament style groundcast or a fishing pendulum but 90+% of the time I fish the HC.

Another cast that can be used in tight quarters is the Brighton cast. this cast is popular in the UK. The brighton has a similar rod arc to the Hatteras cast but starts with the sinker inside the tip close to your feet. Arms are well extended with the left high then a basic punch / pull. It is a powerful cast that will send the sinker a long way, marginally farther than the HC with a competent person behind both.

Here is what I DON'T like about the Brighton. Good technique is paramount. You MUST start slow, allowing the sinker to "kick" outside of the tip before applying the power. Because of the start position with the sinker way inside the tip, too much power too early can result in a snapped rod tip. BAD THING. Carbon fiber rods are especially prone to this type breakage.

That is why I teach and use the HC.

Tommy


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## Garboman (Jul 22, 2010)

ez2cdave said:


> The reason I asked is that the Hatteras cast is often used on piers. I am wondering if he could suggest another cast that would be better in that situation?


I have a suggestion it is the 270 degree rotation Beach pendulum cast, and on short length tee ends like Avon and sad to say now includes Rodanthe, there is an added bonus of multiple alarming ricochet issues with the sinker/hook setup going all over the place if you clip either side railing on the way out to Africa Folks be bailing all over the place...and next time you ask someone to move while you are getting ready to cast a bait out.... then they all move pronto like..

I have blasted railings before and it gets everyone's attention... A tourist type fella on Kitty Hawk pier during a big drum bite in 2000 or so, made the decision that I was asking him to move way too often, he after all had paid his ticket and he decided to stay put and fish a bottom rig in the middle of the tee end, right in the impact zone...I waited an appropriate amount of time and asked again...the fella sneered and stood his ground......I called out heads up and cast........lo and behold the shock leader broke on the way out and the eight ounce sinker smacked the railing hard enough to send wood chips flying and left triangular shaped indent...........a couple feet to the left of where the fella was standing...

I got another spare rod and went back out to get ready to cast out again............I will be damned I did not even have to ask the fella, he just hurried on back behind me with the rest of the folks.. I usually try and throw as hard as I can, which according to Joe Mullet is not very hard,,,


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## ez2cdave (Oct 13, 2008)

Garboman said:


> I have a suggestion it is the 270 degree rotation Beach pendulum cast, and on short length tee ends like Avon and sad to say now includes Rodanthe, there is an added bonus of multiple alarming ricochet issues with the sinker/hook setup going all over the place if you clip either side railing on the way out to Africa Folks be bailing all over the place...and next time you ask someone to move while you are getting ready to cast a bait out.... then they all move pronto like..
> 
> I have blasted railings before and it gets everyone's attention... A tourist type fella on Kitty Hawk pier during a big drum bite in 2000 or so, made the decision that I was asking him to move way too often, he after all had paid his ticket and he decided to stay put and fish a bottom rig in the middle of the tee end, right in the impact zone...I waited an appropriate amount of time and asked again...the fella sneered and stood his ground......I called out heads up and cast........lo and behold the shock leader broke on the way out and the eight ounce sinker smacked the railing hard enough to send wood chips flying and left triangular shaped indent...........a couple feet to the left of where the fella was standing...
> 
> I got another spare rod and went back out to get ready to cast out again............I will be damned I did not even have to ask the fella, he just hurried on back behind me with the rest of the folks.. I usually try and throw as hard as I can, which according to Joe Mullet is not very hard,,,


Garboman,

So, do you think "Duck or Bleed" or "I've never tried this before" would have a bigger effect on people ???


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## ez2cdave (Oct 13, 2008)

Tommy said:


> Another cast that can be used in tight quarters is the Brighton cast. this cast is popular in the UK. The brighton has a similar rod arc to the Hatteras cast but starts with the sinker inside the tip close to your feet. Arms are well extended with the left high then a basic punch / pull. It is a powerful cast that will send the sinker a long way, marginally farther than the HC with a competent person behind both.
> 
> Here is what I DON'T like about the Brighton. Good technique is paramount. You MUST start slow, allowing the sinker to "kick" outside of the tip before applying the power. Because of the start position with the sinker way inside the tip, too much power too early can result in a snapped rod tip. BAD THING. Carbon fiber rods are especially prone to this type breakage.


Tommy,

Are the Brighton and the Unitech the same cast with different names ?

Also, when fishing off the beach, I have been using Phil Hyde's "Hi-Inertia" method, but I think that would be too dangerous on a crowded pier.


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## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

Dave,

The Brighton and Unitech are pretty much the same cast. The high inertia cast is a simple variation of the unitech/brighton using a more traditional 45 degree launch angle. Just as there are MANY styles of the hatteras cast there are as many ways to throw this type of cast. Just remember, START SLOW and FINISH FAST, especially if you start with the sinker well inside the tip. 

Tommy


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## ez2cdave (Oct 13, 2008)

Tommy said:


> Dave,
> 
> The Brighton and Unitech are pretty much the same cast. The high inertia cast is a simple variation of the unitech/brighton using a more traditional 45 degree launch angle. Just as there are MANY styles of the hatteras cast there are as many ways to throw this type of cast. Just remember, START SLOW and FINISH FAST, especially if you start with the sinker well inside the tip.
> 
> Tommy


Thanks, Tommy !

In that diagram I attached, is the sinker inside or outside the tip ?


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## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

Way inside. 

On the hi inertia diagram (above view) the sinker is about 45 degrees "inside" the tip. If you were to push the sinker out to 90 degrees off the tip you would be neutral. Past that and you are outside the tip.

Think about it like this. During the powerstroke of the cast, if the sinker is directly behind the tip (in direction) then it is neither inside nor outside. If it is closer to the body of the caster it is inside if it is farther away then it is outside. It is a little convoluted because the entire cast is dynamic. You want to get the sinker outside as you build the power allowing it to accelerate and then hit it HARD LATE.

Easy as pie... 

Tommy


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## ez2cdave (Oct 13, 2008)

Tommy said:


> Way inside.
> 
> On the hi inertia diagram (above view) the sinker is about 45 degrees "inside" the tip. If you were to push the sinker out to 90 degrees off the tip you would be neutral. Past that and you are outside the tip.
> 
> ...


Tommy,

That was a great explanation . . .

Somehow, I think that "pie" might take quite a bit of practice, before it "comes out of the oven" right . . . LOL !!!

Tight Lines !


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## Mastrbaitr (May 7, 2014)

Similar to the the mechanics of a trebuchet?


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## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

Yep


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## levellinebrad (May 27, 2015)

I just like to twirl it above my head, while playing out a little line with every rotation, until I feel like I'm about to take off, then I release it!

I need to get with you Tommy to see about some lessons.


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## ez2cdave (Oct 13, 2008)

levellinebrad said:


> I just like to twirl it above my head, while playing out a little line with every rotation, until I feel like I'm about to take off, then I release it!
> 
> I need to get with you Tommy to see about some lessons.



The "Weed-Eater Cast" . . . LOL ! ! !


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