# Omega again



## RocknReds (Jun 13, 2010)

Check out the Omega/bunker thread on the Chesapeake Bay Fishing board of Stripers on Line it exposes some more of Omegas' disgusting practices.


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## JAM (Jul 22, 2002)

184 thousand metric tons in the bay is hardly a raping...When each fish can produce 320,000 eggs a year....7 years ago they cut them back and 7 years ago we stopped seeing Striper in Hatteras. Bunker now School up at the end of the bay Chesapeake cause they can only net 184 thousand metric tons, the Stripers stay with them till the Bay gets to cold, then the Menhaden head off shore beyond 3 miles and The Stripers Follow. They Stripers no longer move down the Beach in search of Food, instead they go offshore and become Shark Bait.. JMHO....I don't play on SOL they Booted me for my Supporting Commercial Fishermen.... 

JAM


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## surffshr (Dec 8, 2003)

Back in the 90's there were often schools of menhaden miles wide just off the beach. There also were 4 or 5 boats sucking them up. Spotter planes were right there on them too. Haven't sen those schools in well over 10 years. Blind support of any group of fisherman is a dangerous thing.


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## JAM (Jul 22, 2002)

Hardly Blind Support... Blind Support of Conservation Groups is a more dangerous thing. There still are Schools of menhaden Miles wide. There has been very few times that I can not get "Bunker" in the past 13 years, and I am not buying it from Omega, I am buying it from a Little 18-24 foot Boat with a net and No Planes. The attached link I have provided will show you that since 1955 in figure 4 of the Table, Atlantic Menhaden Fishing has been Cut from over 700 metric Tons to a little over 100 metric Tons. What would you like them to stop fishing all together? The Ocean is a very Big Place and just cause you do not see them does not mean they are not there. What do Red Drum Eat? What Do King Mackerel Eat? Best years on Both of those Fish I have ever witnessed. Here are the facts from NOAA which I do not agree with but it will work for this discussion. Your argument just does not stack up to the facts and the records...Since 1955... 
https://www.st.nmfs.noaa.gov/Assets/commercial/market-news/Forecast2014_Final.pdf

PS if the Menhaden population is depleting then something else is causing that, for example, Run Off from over development along the Chesapeake Bay and Other Places. That is why I will not Blame a Fellow Fisherman for something that the Rich Conservation Groups are causing... 

JAM


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## Drumdum (Jan 6, 2003)

I'm with you on the "rich conservation groups" allying with cca.. BUT I WAS THERE and saw schools of fatback that were ACRES in size!! And watched as pogey boats destroyed them... 

Another thing,I have also witnessed days of fish in BIG numbers,pogey boats come and the fish mysteriously disappear...?? 

You just said it what do red drum,stripers,and king mackerel eat?? Well in 40yrs of fishing here only saw the striper 8 or so years back and kings go back even further.. So,other than red drum I do not get your point....???? The numbers just don't substantiate that... jmho...


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## JAM (Jul 22, 2002)

Well DD look at the Numbers in the report, Bunker fishing has been cut 7 fold since 1955, they used to be allowed over 700 thousand metric tons, if they are not Fishing for them and only allowed 130 thousand metric tons today where are all the Bunker????? Each adult can have 320,000 eggs...

JMHO as well but the numbers do not lie..And NOAA has put the screws to them..


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## Elgreco (Aug 12, 2014)

I wonder what the survival rate is for the eggs, and then the hatchlings. I would guess, extremely small. That be why they lay so many.


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## BaitWaster (Jan 8, 2004)

On further review, looks like the edumocated are more in agreement with JAM  : 
http://www.sefsc.noaa.gov/sedar/download/S40_AtlMenhadenSAR_CombinedFINAL_1.15.2015.pdf?id=DOCUMENT&utm_source=2014+Atlantic+Menhaden+Stock+Assessment+MFC+release+FINAL&utm_campaign=Gulf+menhaden+not+overfished&utm_medium=email

_Based on the current adopted benchmarks,* the Atlantic menhaden stock status is not overfished and overfishing is not occurring*. (Their bold not mine). In addition, the stock is currently below the current fishing mortality target and above the current FEC target. The fishing mortality rate is currently at F65%,which is the lowest F in the time series. _

_The largest values of population fecundity were present in 2012 and 2013, which were the last two years of the model, but were similar in magnitude to historical values of population fecundity. Throughout the time series, age-2 and age-3 fish have produced most of the total estimated number of eggs spawned annually; however, in more recent years, ages-4+ have contributed more significantly to the overall number of eggs. _


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## Drumdum (Jan 6, 2003)

Bernie and Jam,hope that study is correct,because you sure can't prove it by what has been seen here on n beaches of Hatteras...


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## kurazy kracka (Oct 14, 2008)

I've read reports from agencies that say the same thing about the striped bass stock.


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## JAM (Jul 22, 2002)

They could very well be way offshore, along with the Stripers, beyond that magical 3 mile line. I know for a Fact the Stripers have been there, because folks used to go play catch and release with them. (against the law now by the way) Blues have not come to the beach either. If they are not coming close to the beach we must start looking at other reasons, Pollution Run off for one. Too many Golf Courses and too many Mansions just out and out too much development. Look at Va Beach and the Chesapeake Bay, imagine what they are pumping into the Ocean and imagine what the run off does with all the Chemicals used up there for a million different reasons. All I know for a FACT is Divide and Conquer and the folks causing most of the run off pointing fingers away from them and dividing and conquering the fishermen so they can make even more money with Catch Shares which is Corporate Fishing, you all Got a Hard-on For Omega, wait till Wal-Mart Owns all the Catch Shares for all the fisheries courtesy of the PEW Foundation. Either Fishermen Stick Together, or we will all be Shut out of Everything. Remember this THERE ARE NO RULES FOR CATCH AND RELEASE... And who Supports CnR the Most?????? The CCA and the Rich that do it just for Sport... 
JAM


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## Loner (Sep 9, 2009)

JAM said:


> They could very well be way offshore, along with the Stripers, beyond that magical 3 mile line. I know for a Fact the Stripers have been there, because folks used to go play catch and release with them. (against the law now by the way) Blues have not come to the beach either. If they are not coming close to the beach we must start looking at other reasons, Pollution Run off for one. Too many Golf Courses and too many Mansions just out and out too much development. Look at Va Beach and the Chesapeake Bay, imagine what they are pumping into the Ocean and imagine what the run off does with all the Chemicals used up there for a million different reasons. All I know for a FACT is Divide and Conquer and the folks causing most of the run off pointing fingers away from them and dividing and conquering the fishermen so they can make even more money with Catch Shares which is Corporate Fishing, you all Got a Hard-on For Omega, wait till Wal-Mart Owns all the Catch Shares for all the fisheries courtesy of the PEW Foundation. Either Fishermen Stick Together, or we will all be Shut out of Everything. Remember this THERE ARE NO RULES FOR CATCH AND RELEASE... And who Supports CnR the Most?????? The CCA and the Rich that do it just for Sport...
> JAM


...down here in Wilmington there ARE still a few tree's left in folks yard.....the bull-dozer has EATEN ALL THE REST!!!!
Anyone want to start a p!$$ing match????.....just try and tell a NEW TO THE AREA that THEY ARE THE REASON WE DON'T HAVE ANY FISH TO CATCH.....until we do something about all the FOREIGNERS(NY, NJ. PENN) MOVING IN we are FIGHTING A FIRE WITH HIGH OCTANE GASOLINE.......


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## sand flea (Oct 24, 1999)

If you use the results of this new survey to support your side, then you have to accept the scientific validity of similar surveys. I don't believe that the menhaden fishery is healthy but I won't outright reject this survey just because it doesn't line up with my existing beliefs. But I do have misgivings about the logic it relies on. Because the baseline is being set so low they can declare the fishery as "recovered" or "stable." It's kind of like going from making 50k a year to making 15k but telling yourself things are looking up because you just got a $.50/hr raise. You're still broke. You're just a little less broke than you were before. Here's the long-term historical reality of the menhaden fishery 









This survey could potentially lead to a grab by lots of other Atlantic states to bump up their menhaden take, potentially decreasing what Virginia gets--currently 85% of the entire Atlantic haul. Spreading out the regions from which bunker are taken, even are current levels, might not be a bad thing because it would spread out the pressure on more than just the Chesapeake Bay basin.

Either way you can already hear them gunning their engines in Reedville. Their stock has shot up 7% so far today, putting their total value close to a quarter-billion dollars.


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## Drumdum (Jan 6, 2003)

Matt,that graph goes along with what I was saying in my post.. Acres of them in 70's and 80's.. It isn't that way anymore... 

Jam,they could be past that 3mi line..Although if it is runoff and pollution causing it,how can you explain the abundance of red drum inside the 3mi line in the past 3-5yrs?? Just don't understand why a fatback would change it's habits and a big drum would not?


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## Drumdum (Jan 6, 2003)

ALL THAT BEING SAID Jam,KNOW that I'm with you on cca allying with enviros.. (have been preaching fishermen to unite,both com and rec for many years on these boards but have given up because it seems to have fallen on deaf ears,glad to see you saying the same) It WILL come back and bite us ALL in the arse!!!


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## JAM (Jul 22, 2002)

No Sir flea I am not using data from someone called Conservation Law Foundation won't even consider it. No way No How, been down that road before and not gonna get on that one again...They have about run New England out of the Fishing Business http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_Law_Foundation And sound an awful lot like the Southern Environmental Law Center. The Data that I supplied is from NOAA, who I do not trust either, but I was making a Point. http://www.talkingfish.org/opinion/with-menhaden-making-a-comeback-managers-are-at-a-crossroads Looks just like the CCA to me and their Legal arm is the CLF. 

DD just don't know but with the Drum thing I believe Over Conservation has caused what we are seeing now. But, where are they Now, where are all the Fish that were being caught last winter? How Come the BlueFins seemed to have gone around us again? Saw one cut open that was FULL of Bunker, they are getting allot of them down in MoreHead City. Past Several Years Hurricanes could have dumped allot of Bad things in our area. Just do not know, but I would rather not Blame it on a Brother Fisherman. I now this I will not TRUST the Data Provided by SandFlea, I drilled down into it very briefly and they are Just Like the SELC... 

JAM


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## sand flea (Oct 24, 1999)

JAM said:


> No Sir flea I am not using data from someone called Conservation Law Foundation won't even consider it. No way No How, been down that road before and not gonna get on that one again...They have about run New England out of the Fishing Business http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_Law_Foundation And sound an awful lot like the Southern Environmental Law Center. The Data that I supplied is from NOAA, who I do not trust either, but I was making a Point. http://www.talkingfish.org/opinion/with-menhaden-making-a-comeback-managers-are-at-a-crossroads Looks just like the CCA to me and their Legal arm is the CLF.


Jam, the study I was referencing was the ASMFC study this entire thread is about. That link was just a short write-up on it. The point was no matter how you feel about the menhaden population, you have to listen to what the fisheries scientists have to say. It's particularly important to listen to the science when the bunker industry is seeding the internet with a gajillion phony "save the menhaden" twitter accounts or websites that are just fronts for their multimillion dollar lobbying efforts.


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## RocknReds (Jun 13, 2010)

Fact: I was fishing about a mile off the beach of the beach in front of Myrtle Island (Eastern Shore Barrier Island) catching grey trout every cast and releasing them. They were legal good size fish. Along came the bunker boat and put net all the way around me telling me to get the **** out of their way. They scooped up the whole school of trout and put them on board and left into the bay. I called the authorities, but no action. If they're this casual about trout, bunker don't stand a chance. If Omega wants to hire foreign workers in stead of locals, how good can they be?


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## Drumdum (Jan 6, 2003)

JAM said:


> No Sir flea I am not using data from someone called Conservation Law Foundation won't even consider it. No way No How, been down that road before and not gonna get on that one again...They have about run New England out of the Fishing Business http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_Law_Foundation And sound an awful lot like the Southern Environmental Law Center. The Data that I supplied is from NOAA, who I do not trust either, but I was making a Point. http://www.talkingfish.org/opinion/with-menhaden-making-a-comeback-managers-are-at-a-crossroads Looks just like the CCA to me and their Legal arm is the CLF.
> 
> DD just don't know but with the Drum thing I believe Over Conservation has caused what we are seeing now. But, where are they Now, where are all the Fish that were being caught last winter? How Come the BlueFins seemed to have gone around us again? Saw one cut open that was FULL of Bunker, they are getting allot of them down in MoreHead City. Past Several Years Hurricanes could have dumped allot of Bad things in our area. Just do not know, but I would rather not Blame it on a Brother Fisherman. I now this I will not TRUST the Data Provided by SandFlea, I drilled down into it very briefly and they are Just Like the SELC...
> 
> JAM


 Jam,yrlings have ALWAYS been a puzzle to me,and many of my friends that track drum as well.. Last years fish was from a dynamite hatch from a little more than two years ago,they were there the year before as rats... I wouldn't blame my fellow fisherman for not seeing keeping sized pups this year,Imho it's mother nature and the hatch.. As far as where all those yrlings went that were pups last year,as I said,it is still a puzzle?? Although,the bigguns are not a puzzle,at least not like the yrlings,and they have been out in full force for quite a few years now...


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## BaitWaster (Jan 8, 2004)

Sandflea. The last two years apparently have been much better. And they/ASMFC recalculated the models based on some peer review and have concluded that they have been underestimated the population for a number of years. Can't find a graph, however. Not where we were decades ago but better than where we were a decade ago. 

Jam don't be too hard on the fish managers. Pretty frinking hard to count stuff you can't see or count very well. BUT, my BS meter get pegged when Pew get involved and plays the chicken little card. 

Went out over Christmas on a north wind looking for pups and drum in the surf on the ocean side of Shackleford Banks. Swells was too much to get close so went out to Dead Tree Hole to see if I could jig some gray trout. Nada but kept running over 'lumps'. Dropped a jig down and peanut bunker. From 25ft to 60ft. Every couple of hundred yard and small group of gannetts working over a 4-5 mile area. Never seen this before in the past 6 years. Definitely encouraging from this small sample size. 

But no one more menhaden for the Omega reduction fleet. If ASMFC decides to give the commercial side some more fish, give it to the folks catching bunker for crab/lobster bait. I do think there can be local depletion and they need to keep Omega from sucking small areas dry.


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## RocknReds (Jun 13, 2010)

JAM: You're correct about CCA - they've turned into another environmental radical group. Please don't confuse Omega with the average commercial fisherman. Omegas goals, practices and political effects are much different.


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## Loner (Sep 9, 2009)

RocknReds said:


> JAM: You're correct about CCA - they've turned into another environmental radical group. Please don't confuse Omega with the average commercial fisherman. Omegas goals, practices and political effects are much different.


.....U have to be a FOOL to send CCA one dollar....they will use it against you!!!!..


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## JAM (Jul 22, 2002)

RocknReds I know all about OMEGA and the Hardon everyone has for them in the Chesapeake Bay region, as I lived up there in Va Beach for 11 years before moving to Hatteras. They have been cut back 7 Fold at this point down to a little over 127,000 metric tons in the Atlantic, that is Down from over 700,000 metric Tons in 1955. so they have been about regulated out of Business. 

I prefer Blaming other things as opposed to Other Fishermen, like Cycles, RunOff, Over development, Weather Patterns, Mis Management of our resource, Hurricanes and the such. As opposed to Blaming other Fishermen. The Stripers online Board is Full of Know it Alls that honestly, Know nothing. If they can't handle a discussion, related to Commercial Fishermen, they Block your account. I was on that Board giving the Same Statistics that I am giving here and they Blocked me. They are a Catch and release type of Group with the Majority of them on the CCA Tip. 

They would be Good To have on the recreational anglers side but the Commercial Recreational relationship has been destroyed purposely by the Fisheries Management folks, in order to get less resistance to Catch Shares which is part of the Pew Foundations master Plan for the Future of Fisheries.. You should know this Tactic Very well from your Past Job, and it is working like a Champ Divide and Conquer is a Great Tactic to get what you want in the End. Notice all the restrictions on the Rec Angler as of Late? Now that they have Comms about a Wrap they are now after us . Most of the Big Fish Houses and Fish Business's are for Sale , not talking about the Little Guys talking about the Big Shots, they are getting out of the Business While the Getting is Still Good, including the Majority Owners of where I work. Once they have consolidated the Major Owners, Catch Shares are a Go... http://www.undercurrentnews.com/2014/12/31/wancheses-daniels-family-in-agreement-on-sale-to-cooke/ 

Funny thing is everyone has a Hardon for Omega, but the entire Atlantic and Gulf under Catch Shares will make Omega Look A Knight In Shining Armor. Cause it will be Welcome to Wal-Mart Fishing. BTW Wal-Mart will be one of the Biggest Players in Catch Shares. thanks to the Pew Foundation.. Watch and See it Unravel, remember around 14 years ago I told ya they would close the Point, you guys looked at me like I was Crazy, Well it happened and so will this. 

JAM 

JAM


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## phillyguy (Aug 9, 2010)

http://www.fredericksburg.com/news/...cle_dfb1a676-1d52-5751-a0ff-e7fa924b2c62.html

Looks like the bunker quotas are going nowhere but up. Omega's scientists claim that the bunker populations have been under-counted.


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## JAM (Jul 22, 2002)

phillyguy said:


> http://www.fredericksburg.com/news/...cle_dfb1a676-1d52-5751-a0ff-e7fa924b2c62.html
> 
> Looks like the bunker quotas are going nowhere but up. Omega's scientists claim that the bunker populations have been under-counted.


As they should if the Fish Managers were lying.. Imagine that not doing proper Counts and using defective Models. Notice how they call them ENVIRONMENTALISTS, Keep putting your faith in them and you will be keeping Nothing. In NC were are at 1 Slot Pup 1 Grey Trout (Weakfish) 4 Specks (Spotted Sea Trout) Because they say there are n't many of them. I can bring you to Certain Spots on Certain Days and we can catch hundreds of Greys... If they are lying about one species of Fish, guess what they are lying about them all. Same with offshore Species... Triggers all day long, Groupers Plenty of them.... 

Gonna Sound like a Broken record but, the more people they discourage from Fishing the easier it is to Force Catch Shares on everyone... Watch... In a Few Years I will get to say I Told You So Again.... 
JAM


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## dirtyhandslopez (Nov 17, 2006)

Don't know if anyone noticed in the eyes in the sky thread, that fishing boat watching operation was set up by Pew...


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## boomer (Jul 1, 2009)

I think JAM is right, the best way to "protect" the fish is to discourage fishing and by reducing the bag limit to 1 or 2 fish reduces the number of people who fish. If groupers are off limits until after June, how many bottom trips are you going to take before June if you like to catch grouper? Not many. As fisherman we need to look at the overall picture, several issues got us in the position we are in and blaming it on one group will not fix it.


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## Big Rad (May 19, 2003)

<~~~~tosses hat in the ring

What is Omega catching bunker for anyhow? There are other sources to provide the essential "oil". It was mentioned that there are those who rely on bunker for bait. Those are the folks we should be concerned with. Omega doesn't need to fish anymore. Just like we don't need to burn coal anymore. This can't see the forest for the trees is what is going to destroy this planet. The questions should be; Why do we support practices which are of the least benefit to the environment as a whole? Is the good of the few worth more than the future of the many?


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## JAM (Jul 22, 2002)

Big Rad said:


> <~~~~tosses hat in the ring
> 
> What is Omega catching bunker for anyhow? There are other sources to provide the essential "oil". It was mentioned that there are those who rely on bunker for bait. Those are the folks we should be concerned with. Omega doesn't need to fish anymore. Just like we don't need to burn coal anymore. This can't see the forest for the trees is what is going to destroy this planet. The questions should be; Why do we support practices which are of the least benefit to the environment as a whole? Is the good of the few worth more than the future of the many?


Its their Business and the Provide Fish Oil and Feed. Why would Omega not need to fish any more? Should they just go out of Business, they have been in Business for well over 100 years... Burning Coal provides most of the Country with electric, I guess we should stop using electric, OK YOU FIRST. Whats gonna destroy this planet is ENVIRONMENTALISM and the Cost of Doing Business because of the One Eyed Tit Mouse Beetle and TERRORISM because people have lost their Ballz.. Guess where Oil and Coal come from, the same place Lead does, the Ground they are "Natural Resources" I have answered your questions and I have one for you.... How much is your CCA Membership a year??? 

JAM


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## Big Rad (May 19, 2003)

JAM said:


> Its their Business and the Provide Fish Oil and Feed. Why would Omega not need to fish any more? Should they just go out of Business, they have been in Business for well over 100 years... Burning Coal provides most of the Country with electric, I guess we should stop using electric, OK YOU FIRST. Whats gonna destroy this planet is ENVIRONMENTALISM and the Cost of Doing Business because of the One Eyed Tit Mouse Beetle and TERRORISM because people have lost their Ballz.. Guess where Oil and Coal come from, the same place Lead does, the Ground they are "Natural Resources" I have answered your questions and I have one for you.... How much is your CCA Membership a year???
> 
> JAM


I understand your passion for this. I'll answer your question first. I honestly don't know what CCA is.

As to my point of things being outdated. In the 70s I worked for a printing company as a pressman. I could set type before a lino-type machine replaced that skill/job. I was a proficient letterpress man until the offset printing press put me out of business. I'm just saying that there a "better" sources for the supplement. The 100 year stuff is just bs anyway you cut it. Hell we used to fight wars with swords............


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