# Why Doesn't This Surprise Me?



## Finaddict4u (Jan 9, 2009)

National Park Service News Release
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: DATE: March 10, 2009
CONTACT: Cyndy Holda, 252-473-2111, ext. 148


NPS WORK CREW INSTALL BEACH ACCESS RAMP COUNTERS

Outer Banks Group Superintendent Mike Murray announced today that National
Park Service (NPS) staff will install new traffic counters on five of the
beach access ramps beginning March 11, 2009. As a result of
recommendations to track ORV usage within Cape Hatteras National Seashore
(Seashore), the new system is designed to record traffic at selected beach
access ramps that are indicative of ORV usage in the surrounding areas and
utilizes methodology based on proven statistical models already in use
throughout the NPS system.

The locations for the newly installed traffic counters are:
Ramp 2 at Coquina Beach
Ramp 34 north of Avon Village
Ramps 43/44 near Cape Hatteras Lighthouse
Ramp 55 at the southern end of Hatteras Village
Ramp 70 near Ocracoke Airstrip

Installation requires partial closure of each ramp for a period of four
hours but access is possible except for Ramp 55. The placement of the
traffic counter at Ramp 55 will require total closure of access or egress
to and from Hatteras Inlet and the Pole Road during that four hour period
of time. If weather conditions permit, Ramp 55 traffic counter
installation is scheduled for Thursday, March 19 from 8:00 a.m. to 12:
noon.

For further information, please call 252-473-2111 ext. 148.

-NPS-


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## pumpkinboy (Jul 18, 2005)

NPS master plan:

Step 1 find out how many people use the beach

Step 2 reduce that number to zero


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## basstardo (Jun 5, 2006)

They've actually had counters up for a while at several of the ramps, but they didn't work worth very well from what I just read on Frank's board. Honestly, these probably would have been beneficial to our side during Reg-Neg.


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## pumpkinboy (Jul 18, 2005)

From what a got outta the Reg Neg notes, permits are coming, it is a done deal. They are getting the numbers now so they know how many permits will be allowed. How much you wanna bet Muarry has alrady been told by DOW, Autoban, and the SELC to makes fewer permits available then number of users?


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## basstardo (Jun 5, 2006)

Unfortunately, you're probably right. Hopefully the permitting process isn't a complete pain in the rear either. The only thing that gives me any hope is that the permit process for the fall season last year was very easy. We can only hope it remains that way.


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## Woodchuck (Jan 5, 2005)

I hate to be the optimist but I also got the impression (from all my reading) that permits are a commin’ to restrict access to a certain number of vehicles. I read somewhere what those pulled out of thin air suggested numbers were I think. Most likely free the first year and should be easy to get by just stopping into the ranger station and filling out a form. I do not see them as just being a downloadable form, no way to control number of users. Free the first year because permits are a hard pill to swallow and they will want to make it as painless as possible so we all learn to accept it… “Well, at least they are not charging us for the permit…” The next year a nominal fee ‘to cover administration costs’ or some other crap excuse like that. Year after that fewer permits and cost increase due to something or other. Fewer permits and greater cost each year due to less beach available due to increased number of enclosures due to increase in ‘observed’ bird activity.. and so on and so forth.

Slowly but surely the dark side creeps along toward their final goal… The Cape Hatteras Private Bird Sanctuary. I’m doing all I can from here to put a STOP to it before it gets any further than what we have lost so far!!!!!


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## croaker (Jun 18, 2004)

*Probably*

will be modeled after the Cape Cod access permit crap.


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## AbuMike (Sep 3, 2007)

Forgive my ignorance....Would permits be such a bad thing. Seems as though it would keep alot of the trash out.


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## savfish (Mar 10, 2005)

Permits = another tax. I grew up on long island, NY and when I left in 96 I had 4 different 4x4 permits and they all cost money. 2 years ago NC put in a saltwater fishing license (tax) and eventually we will have to pay to drive on the nps beaches. Whenever they need to fund additional closures (signs and fence post bangers cost money) and pay for lost lawsuits, our fee will go up. Eventually we will be funding audobon and dow ourselves in the form of a 4x4 permit.


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## croaker (Jun 18, 2004)

*Go to the NPS website*

and look up the 'oversand' regulations,limits, requirements, etc. for Cape Cod. I guess I need to understand the term "trash". I agree there are some idiots on the beach, but the majority of resource users are not idiots. There are families that have respectfully used the beach for decades. These are the people that would be most hurt by stuff like this. Fisherman like us would probably just shrug and keep on going. Permits are more than taxes. Permits are limits to access.


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## JeepMike (Feb 4, 2008)

I hope you guys realize that most of these inferences about permits being required, etc. are all just speculation. Could it be that they would like to know how many people are actually using the beach? How many people these closures are truly affecting? I don't see why the park service gathering data is automatically a bad thing?


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## Lightload (Nov 30, 2007)

Problem is, they are counting AFTER the consent decree is in place which will result in a much lower number of users. They should have done the count BEFORE the Consent Decree to get an actual number along with a good idea of what the economic impact of the closures would be to local businesses.

Don't know what counts are going to do at this point.


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## JeepMike (Feb 4, 2008)

Lightload said:


> Problem is, they are counting AFTER the consent decree is in place which will result in a much lower number of users. They should have done the count BEFORE the Consent Decree to get an actual number along with a good idea of what the economic impact of the closures would be to local businesses.
> 
> Don't know what counts are going to do at this point.


I have yet to see a "problem" with installing counters. I'm sure you are well aware that the consent decree expires in 2011, when NPS will be ready to install an ORV plan. They could very well be getting their ducks in a row, counting cars for the 09/10 season so they can actually create a feasible ORV plan that works for all of us in 2011 onward. The consent decree came into existance rapidly last spring, so if NPS installed counters then, what cars were they going to count? 

I can't understand why everyone feels the need to criticize/badger everything the NPS does. The praise for the NPS is few and far between on this site. Without the NPS, this place would look like VA Beach. 

Maybe instead of constantly assuming the worst about the NPS, you could give them the benefit of a doubt, and realize that maybe they are actually going to try and fix this situation. As far as the impact of local businesses, the economy in general is going to hurt us far more than the beach closures...


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## fishingeek (Aug 30, 2004)

JeepMike said:


> I have yet to see a "problem" with installing counters. I'm sure you are well aware that the consent decree expires in 2011, when NPS will be ready to install an ORV plan. They could very well be getting their ducks in a row, counting cars for the 09/10 season so they can actually create a feasible ORV plan that works for all of us in 2011 onward. The consent decree came into existance rapidly last spring, so if NPS installed counters then, what cars were they going to count?
> 
> I can't understand why everyone feels the need to criticize/badger everything the NPS does. The praise for the NPS is few and far between on this site. Without the NPS, this place would look like VA Beach.
> 
> Maybe instead of constantly assuming the worst about the NPS, you could give them the benefit of a doubt, and realize that maybe they are actually going to try and fix this situation. As far as the impact of local businesses, the economy in general is going to hurt us far more than the beach closures...


HA! Thats funny... I really hope I'm wrong, but I no faith whatsoever that the NPS going to fix this situation. They are going to reuse the Consent Decree as the final plan, so they can "fix" the litigation problem and make the enviro's happy.


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## JeepMike (Feb 4, 2008)

fishingeek said:


> HA! Thats funny... I really hope I'm wrong, but I no faith whatsoever that the NPS going to fix this situation. They are going to reuse the Consent Decree as the final plan, so they can "fix" the litigation problem and make the enviro's happy.


I'm glad you find it amusing Fishingeek. Do tell me how you know exactly what the NPS is going to do? Did Murray say "We are going to reuse the Consent Decree as the final plan to make the enviro's happy" to you on your last vacation here? 

It's the same ole story; people complain about how awful they think the NPS is, and always think the worst when they are up to something. I happen to like the NPS most of the time. Without the NPS, millions of Americans would not have access to some of the most geographically rich locations in America, but I guess thats not good enough, lets hate on them for installing counters!!! The negativity flowing on P&S is starting to make me sick.


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## huckfinn38 (Jun 13, 2006)

Mike,
The NPS failed to complete/implement/finalize the ORV management plan back in the 70's which led to the law suits that put us under the consent degree. Surely you can see why there is a lack of trust with the NPS. Of all of the REG NEG meetings, how many of these did it seem like the NPS was there to protect access?


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## NTKG (Aug 16, 2003)

Jebson38 said:


> Mike,
> The NPS failed to complete/implement/finalize the ORV management plan back in the 70's which led to the law suits that put us under the consent degree. Surely you can see why there is a lack of trust with the NPS. Of all of the REG NEG meetings, how many of these did it seem like the NPS was there to protect access?


yeahp


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## fishingeek (Aug 30, 2004)

JeepMike said:


> I'm glad you find it amusing Fishingeek. Do tell me how you know exactly what the NPS is going to do? Did Murray say "We are going to reuse the Consent Decree as the final plan to make the enviro's happy" to you on your last vacation here?
> 
> It's the same ole story; people complain about how awful they think the NPS is, and always think the worst when they are up to something. I happen to like the NPS most of the time. Without the NPS, millions of Americans would not have access to some of the most geographically rich locations in America, but I guess thats not good enough, lets hate on them for installing counters!!! The negativity flowing on P&S is starting to make me sick.











From 2005, pre Consent Decree, the NPS have no problem putting up these crazy closures, this one closed the entire point. They didn't bother trying to provide access either, but made sure they had weapons at the ready.

The negativity stems from the reality that we're stuck with the CD until 2011??? And DOW/Audubon will certainly sue if the NPS plan doesn't reflect whats in the CD. Why would they accept anything less? They have the money to do it...


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## Cutbait Bob (Mar 24, 2004)

The NPS... AND MIKE MURRAY will not be happy until access for ORV fisherman is reduced to "a postage stamp".


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## JeepMike (Feb 4, 2008)

I must respectfully disagree with you folks. Sure the NPS did not have an ORV plan from the 70's. Yes this dampens their credibility, but I still have faith. Cutbait Bob, why do you make such incindiary statements? Seems like the glass has been half empty here on PnS lately, I like to view it as half full! Atleast we still HAVE SOME access!


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## Woodchuck (Jan 5, 2005)

And from what I have read and seen from the reg neg meetings the dark side would like us to thank them for allowing us to have “some access”. It has always been give a little, come on now work with us, compromise, just give us Pea Island look at all you have left!… As we loose little by little of our beach access. So yes, be thankful that they are allowing us to have some access… for now... cause they will be back for more.


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## Woodchuck (Jan 5, 2005)

Didn’t mean to sound like I’m putting your thoughts down Mike. Just that this is how it has been and I have no reason to think it will change anytime soon with the current situation. That doesn’t mean I have given up!!!!! I am a realist and look at things they way they are and look for ways I can change them.

I’m still writing snail mail letters and emails.


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## pumpkinboy (Jul 18, 2005)

Fishingeek is right on the money. by 2011, there will be premits and very restricted beach use, just like Cape Cod.

It's over.


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## NTKG (Aug 16, 2003)

JeepMike said:


> I must respectfully disagree with you folks. Sure the NPS did not have an ORV plan from the 70's. Yes this dampens their credibility, but I still have faith. Cutbait Bob, why do you make such incindiary statements? Seems like the glass has been half empty here on PnS lately, I like to view it as half full! Atleast we still HAVE SOME access!


its like a woman. maybe this will help relate it for you. dont ever give an inch you aren't willing to give forever


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## Shooter (Nov 14, 2004)

Jeepmike, now before we all go off half cocked and blaming P&S for hate-mongering and saying we are just visitors there remember some of us have been going to Hatteras for 20, 30 and some more years. Trust me I know more than enough folks that live on the island and they are steaming at the vents over all of this (with just cause) we have seen for years the lack of trust NPS has given us so ALL of us has just cause to not trust NPS.

My dear ol dad once told me "Hope for the best but prepare for the worst and seldom will you be disapointed". We have seen what the birdy huggers can do in court and the federal goverment just stand there and take an arse whuppen and not fight back. So what little hope we did have has seen it's better days.

You are correct, hopeing for the best is what we should be doing but in our hearts we are preparing for the worst. (sad to say)

PS: There are some folks that don't live on the island that has spent time and money helping to fight this battle so it's not just a visitor thing.


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## AbuMike (Sep 3, 2007)

JeepMike, this is why I don't say much about this topic. Sometimes your not allowed to have your own opinion. I do not live down there but I have been fishing down south for a long time and love it as much as anyone else. I have been involved from the start. I was there when all this really came to a head and saw the stupidity for myself.

Simply because some people choose to ask a question or just make a statement without jumping up and down or threatining to cross into closures they are considered unknowing or "don't give a damners. Just because one does not say much in public doesn't mean we don't care or fight in our own way.

Now with that said...There are other places to fish, you just need to find them.


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## JeepMike (Feb 4, 2008)

Shooter said:


> Jeepmike, now before we all go off half cocked and blaming P&S for hate-mongering and saying we are just visitors there remember some of us have been going to Hatteras for 20, 30 and some more years. Trust me I know more than enough folks that live on the island and they are steaming at the vents over all of this (with just cause) we have seen for years the lack of trust NPS has given us so ALL of us has just cause to not trust NPS.
> 
> My dear ol dad once told me "Hope for the best but prepare for the worst and seldom will you be disapointed". We have seen what the birdy huggers can do in court and the federal goverment just stand there and take an arse whuppen and not fight back. So what little hope we did have has seen it's better days.
> 
> ...


I hope I didn't come across as not showing appreciation to visitors of the island. I am certainly a visitor too, just now a permanent one since I moved here. I hope that I never come across as some disgruntled local thats points a finger at people that visit this island because I am nothing more than a visitor that just won't leave . Besides, I believe we are all just visitors on this Earth. However, from my day to day dealings with the park service, I do know that there have been counters on some of the ramps for years, and now they are just being upgraded. In fact, if you dig deep enough, you will discover FEMA is part way responsible for getting this ball rolling and it has more to do with flooding and the surrounding statistics than it does with plovers. (As I have been told). I do know alot of the guys here on the ground level (rangers, maintenance, guys, etc.. I work with them, I volunteer with them, etc..) and they are NOT happy about the beach closures and are working hard to do everything they can to keep our beaches open as much as possible.

Remarks like PumpkinBoys just get old to me after awhile... Don't talk about it, be about it.


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## JeepMike (Feb 4, 2008)

P.S. Shoot your right on the mark with the "Hope for the best but prepare for the worst"!


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## pumpkinboy (Jul 18, 2005)

JeepMike said:


> Remarks like PumpkinBoys just get old to me after awhile... Don't talk about it, be about it.


Golly Mike, sorry to bring you down, man.

I've been a vistor to the outer Banks for over 35 years, seen access lost and never returned.

I was treated very rudely by the heavily armed federal occupational force when Belli closed the point a few years ago.

I attended every NPS planning meeting held in Raleigh, and also got to know some of the NPS folks involved.

What put me over the edge was watching the anti's at the reg neg meeting. They will not budge, and the NPS will not fight them. One thing everyone seemed to agree on was permits. Ever been to assateugue and seen the permit system there? They only let like 100 ORVs on the beach. If you are # 101, you sit on the ramp and wait for some one to leave. Cape Cod is only open a few days in the summer, yet you still need to shell out hundreds of dollars for a permit. Who ran Cape Cod when these policies were put in place? Mike Murray.

As for "being about it", I have written letters, called congresmen, filled out workbooks, signed petions, involved friends and family, donated time and money to the OBPA, NCBBA, and CHAC. Worked beach sweeps, spread the word about whats going on to Newspapers and TV stations in Raleigh.

I'm all for a positive attitude, but the relality of it is that the lifestyle we are used to is going away. The freedom the drew me to live in NC just to be closer to the beach is coming to an end. Yes, I'm pissed about it. I'm more pissed at the general apathy of the public about it. 50-75 people showed up for the last Reg Neg meeting. Should have been hunderds. I'm so upset at people mouthing off on the internet about how mad they are and then they never actually doing anything.

I'm burned out from the fight and frustrated.

Sorry for the rant, they won't let me drink at work.


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## Shooter (Nov 14, 2004)

Mike, I am sure 99% os the park service personal are great folks and hate whats going on as much as we do and I am also sure that all the rules and mandates come down from the top. I have spoken to a lot of the rangers and they seem to be on our side but all we see is "The Park Service" has closed this and closed that and when we see "Park Service" personal they get the brunt of the anger at what should be directed at the top- aka- the ones who makes the rules.

Ya want to talk about anger  A few years back I wish I had recorded the phone call I had with the head of the park service in Washington DC when I learned of The Point and The Hook area had been shut down due to 2 birds. I told them I was going to hand my young daughter the phone so they could explain to her (while she was crying loud enough in the background to be heard) why she could not go swiming in the calmer waters inside the hook area while we were on the only family vacation we were able to take that year. 

True, sometimes the loudest voice is a whisper but sometimes ya have to yell to get someone to hear ya.

I am not for breaking the law but our forefathers didn't win any wars by not being a bit mad about something.


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## fishingeek (Aug 30, 2004)

JeepMike said:


> I must respectfully disagree with you folks. Sure the NPS did not have an ORV plan from the 70's. Yes this dampens their credibility, but I still have faith. Cutbait Bob, why do you make such incindiary statements? Seems like the glass has been half empty here on PnS lately, I like to view it as half full! Atleast we still HAVE SOME access!


Okay Mikey, after the recent events, Ocracoke South Point increased closure to the pond incident at Oregon Inlet. Do you feel the same way about the NPS? These NPS guys knew the results of their actions and had to take it all the way. Couldn't just tap four signs back in the sand and be done with it... Couldn't just warn the kids about the closure... NPS is not on our side whatsoever, they are biggest part of the problem... I willing to bet the NPS knocked the signs down themselves... :--|


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## for access (Jul 18, 2005)

*Here is a point of clarification*

This all came out of reg. neg. as part of the economic impact. To see the foolishness of this consider the following:

The only counts we have prior to the consent decree are Vogelsong's. The peer review states that this study cannot be used to measure economic impacts of added restrictions on ORV use.

The one this that was clear was that, at least, 50% of users are ORV users and that the vast majority of in season users frequent the spits, the point, and south beach.

As a result of the consent decree, inlet access at Oregon Inlet and Ocracoke south have been shut down. Access at Hatteras Inlet and Ocracoke north is severly limited and will likely follow. A good chunk of south beach has been shut down and the point will likely follow shortly. 

So now tell me, how can 50% of visitors access the most popular areas within the seashore. And if they can't, what can the counts possibly tell us? Only that no one goes to the point, the inlets, or south beach thus an ORV plan which closes these areas to ORVs will have NOOOOOOO economic impact.

Sorry, glass is not half full, just recognizing the limits of this approach. Do I have a better plan? NO, SO LONG AS THE CONSENT DECREE IS IN FORCE THERE IS NO WAY TO MEASURE THE TYPICAL USE PATTERNS AT THIS PARK BECAUSE THEY HAVE BEEN CHANGED.


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## JeepMike (Feb 4, 2008)

fishingeek said:


> Okay Mikey, after the recent events, Ocracoke South Point increased closure to the pond incident at Oregon Inlet. Do you feel the same way about the NPS? These NPS guys knew the results of their actions and had to take it all the way. Couldn't just tap four signs back in the sand and be done with it... Couldn't just warn the kids about the closure... NPS is not on our side whatsoever, they are biggest part of the problem... I willing to bet the NPS knocked the signs down themselves... :--|


I still feel that the guys we see on the beaches day in/day out are just doing their job. I'm not sure why you think people need even MORE warning to stay out of the closures. I guess signs every 12 feet that are written in english (and even have pictures for those who cannot read) displaying that people, ORV's, and animals are not allowed in the closure are not enough of a warning for the kids. 

I can see why many would scapegoat the NPS as being the biggest part of the problem, but without the park service the point would not even exist as we know it... There would be all kinds of crap out there...

Yes the consent decree sucks, and I hate every bit of it... BUT it will expire in 2011, and instead of sitting around moping about how much it sucks we can't get to the point this year, why don't we focus all of our efforts into making sure this thing goes away and we have unrestricted access from 2011 onward. I do not agree with this notion of just trying to slap a bandaid on this wound, we need long term solutions, and the counters (in my opinion) will help get statistics (however flawed they may be, we still need numbers).


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