# Distance Casting 101



## wolfgang (Nov 7, 2007)

My general question is...how would one who knows absolutely nothing about distance casting get started? (I have more specific questions at the end of this entry)... 

Here's where I'm at. I've been surf fishing for about four years (OBX and SC). Have had some pretty good success catching fish, but would like to take it to the next level. I use standard plain jane gear...spinning reels spooled with mono on 10 foot rods slinging 4 to 6 ozs of lead. My casting technique even with this modest setup leaves a little bit to be desired.

So here goes...any help would be greatly appreciated...

1) Do I have to learn how to cast a conventional reel or will spinners work OK? I'm not looking to win any contests and I'd prefer to keep working with a reel type that I'm accustomed to, but if the conventionals will provide me with some significant advantages...then I might as well learn to use one. 

2) Mono or braid?? Again, I'd rather stick with what I know, but if the braid is better then...

3) What's the best length and action rod to start out with?

4) What's a good rod/reel combo for a first distance caster that won't break the bank? I'd probably be looking to spend a max of $150 (that's total for rod and reel). Is that realistic? Anything decent in that price range? If not, what's the minimum I should expect to spend for a quality first rod/reel setup for distance casting? 

5) What's the best distance casting technique to learn as a starter and how do I learn (watching videos, reading books, etc.). I don't know anyone that can show me...so I'm on my own. Fortunately, I have a huge yard to practice in. 

I know it's a lot of questions, but just want to learn as much as I can. Thanks!


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## barty b (Dec 31, 2004)

You will get MANY different answers and opinions but in a nut shell...

1) Do I have to learn how to cast a conventional reel or will spinners work OK?
Yes,Plenty of guys hit good fishing distances with spinners

2) Mono or braid?? 
I know you are new here but this question starts 10 page wars. Mono on conventionals, Braid on spinners However, From what I have gathered,they will kill you for using braid at 'Da Point"

3) What's the best length and action rod to start out with?
12-13 feet,moderate fast action (see "Heaver")

4) What's a good rod/reel combo for a first distance caster that won't break the bank? 
In your price range,Not much. Now increase that to like $250 and you can get an Ocean Master Cape Point rod and a Daiwa Emblem 5500XA used. Outside of that it gets expensive.

5) What's the best distance casting technique to learn as a starter and how do I learn (watching videos, reading books, etc.). 
The groundcast or OTG,also the "Hatteras" cast,search YouTube.


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## wolfgang (Nov 7, 2007)

Thanks for the info 'barty b'...greatly appreciated. 

What point are you referring to by "Da Point" (Hatteras, Ocracoke, some other)? Who are "they" and why do they seek blood for using braid??


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## RockhopperUK (Jul 13, 2005)

Wolfgang, your questions were well asked and just as well answered....I dont think you could go far wrong with Barts advise.

Bart.....did you ever get my reply to the PM you sent me, becasue I never got one back

Tom.


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## barty b (Dec 31, 2004)

wolfgang said:


> Thanks for the info 'barty b'...greatly appreciated.
> 
> What point are you referring to by "Da Point" (Hatteras, Ocracoke, some other)? Who are "they" and why do they seek blood for using braid??



Hatteras.

Braid is frowned upon here due to a region specific tactic know as a "conga line". Whereas fishermen line up and cast baits out allowing them to drift north or south depending on curent. The fishermen form a "line" kinda like a merry-go-round.You cast out,drift down,reel up, walk back to the beginning and repeat. Braid plays havoc with tangles, that inevitably happen, and cuts mono and guys lose fish and rigs and then want you dead. It's great fun.

Tom, No I didn't,Basically I want some of that cool luggage you got for JR.


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## RockhopperUK (Jul 13, 2005)

Bart, check your MSN.

Sorry for the slight hijacking Worfgang:fishing:

Tom.


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## hookemhigh (Sep 15, 2007)

*Thnaks for the questions and info*

Good questions Wolfgang. I am in the same boat with you. Barty B thanks for all the info. With all you P/S guys out here, I'll be where I want to be in no time!!!


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## bloodworm (Jan 5, 2007)

barty b said:


> You will get MANY different answers and opinions but in a nut shell...
> 
> 
> 2) Mono or braid??
> ...


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## curtisb (Jul 21, 2004)

Just want to clarify here, are you asking for fishing distance casting or over grass long casting like in tournaments. If fishing is your only deal, then what Barty B says works perfect. If however you want to get into tournament longcasting, then you will need to look at getting better equipment(which spells more money). A 5500 spinner will work but you might want to look at a better rod for optimum distance on a tourney court(say a AFAW 13' or a Breakaway HDX). These two rods would be the start as far as cost for a tourney rod goes. An all out tourney rod would be a Zziplex or Century(a whole lot more money), there are others but these two are the most popular on tournament courts you will see. There have been some real good numbers put up with spinning gear over the years on the grass(750'+). If this is what you want to do than you will need to learn either the OTG, Pendelum, Xcast or Backcast. You will also need to go to the Sportcast USA web site and read the rules. Then find someone who can coach you in the fundamentals of casting these cast I mentioned. It is usually best to attend a couple of casting tourneys first before you make an investment. they are lots of fun and full of people who love to share there knowledge about the sport. You will also get to see first hand the equipment we use and what kind of numbers we are capable of putting up with this equipment and these powerful cast.

CB


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## wolfgang (Nov 7, 2007)

Thanks for all the feedback guys...keep it coming...

cb - as to your point...I have no interest whatsoever in tournament casting, just want to catch more fish and have more reach when conditions call for distance casting. Thanks for the info!


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## barty b (Dec 31, 2004)

I'm just passing on what I have learned here, Hell, I have never set foot on ANY of the OBX


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## Openboat (Oct 19, 2007)

Sound like you may already know this, but other things to consider are (in this order). 50 lb Shock leader over your choice of line, a good knot for attaching the shock leader to your line, a Breakaway Cannon for holding and then releasing the line on the cast with a spinning rod.
Search the board and you will great advice on all of these.


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## Reelturner (Dec 24, 2003)

*Barty b*



barty b said:


> I'm just passing on what I have learned here, Hell, I have never set foot on ANY of the OBX


your in the ballpark for sure!! Good advice. 

Reelturner


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## curtisb (Jul 21, 2004)

Actually the rule is the weight your going to throw multiplied by 10 equals the shockleader your going to use. 5oz=50lb, 6oz=60lb, exc.

Ok, your not interested in Tournaments. But this is how we learn to throw so far. The practice for the tourneys also helps our fishing distance. 

CB


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

if seeking optimium casting distance with spinners I would difinitely learn to use braid. Braid is what allows spinners to keep up to some degree with conventionals as far as distance casting goes, and I'm sure in the right hands many can cast farther with braid on spinners than they can with conventionals.

You can always keep a spare spool reeled up with mono for visiting "da point". 

As others have suggested it will help your distances if you can up your budget to closer to $250.00, just for starters.

To give you an idea , the serious spinning casters spend a lot more for a premium casting spinner reel than I will for a conventional reel, but with the right spinner and braid, you can cast along way with a decent rod, once you have solid technique. In other words no you don't need to learn conventional, but to get the same distance as a good conventional set up will generally mean more dollars, in terms of a quality casting spinner reel, and the braid to put on it.

OTG- is the cast to learn starting out.


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## Surf Fish (Dec 16, 2005)

curtisb said:


> Actually the rule is the weight your going to throw multiplied by 10 equals the shockleader your going to use. 5oz=50lb, 6oz=60lb, exc.


When using that formula, should one include the weight of the bait ? 

For example, with a 5oz sinker I'm using a 6oz fish head for bait, should I be using 110 lb test shock leader ?


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## barty b (Dec 31, 2004)

Now Jim, You've seen me throw a full pound payload while shark fishin with 80lb shockleader.

Seriously, I think 80 is plenty for any drum fishing applications,but I see your point.


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## curtisb (Jul 21, 2004)

barty b said:


> Now Jim, You've seen me throw a full pound payload while shark fishin with 80lb shockleader.
> 
> Seriously, I think 80 is plenty for any drum fishing applications,but I see your point.


This is also what I use for fishing and tourney casting(80lb).


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## wolfgang (Nov 7, 2007)

Just curious...assuming everything else is equal (same rod, reel, man, technique, conditions, etc.) with the ONLY difference being braid vs. mono...on average, how much more distance can one get with the braid vs. mono on a spinning reel?


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## vbflyfisher (May 2, 2005)

50lb shock for drumming is the standard. thats really all you need for toughness and strength. with 80lb your shock knot would be HUGE, unless you got that expensive suffix leader mat. only available in the uk. it has a diameter of 50lb mono, and breaking strength of 80lb mono. its expensive stuff.


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

wolfgang said:


> Just curious...assuming everything else is equal (same rod, reel, man, technique, conditions, etc.) with the ONLY difference being braid vs. mono...on average, how much more distance can one get with the braid vs. mono on a spinning reel?


Too many variables to give you a specific distance. Besides I have never set out to measure the actual difference, no two casts are equal, etc, etc. 

Consider this, 30lb mono would be tough to get any distance out of. 30lb braid is the equivalent of 8-10 lb mono in diameter. So as your cast length increases the reel spool isn't emptying nearly as fast as with that thick mono. You no longer have a big spool lip to clear towards the end of the cast. Take into consideration the limpness of braid and you haave another advantage over mono.

All I can say is if you have never used braid try some. You will definitely notice an increase in distance, provided you avoid the dreaded wind knots. :--|


:fishing:


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## curtisb (Jul 21, 2004)

vbflyfisher said:


> 50lb shock for drumming is the standard. thats really all you need for toughness and strength. with 80lb your shock knot would be HUGE, unless you got that expensive suffix leader mat. only available in the uk. it has a diameter of 50lb mono, and breaking strength of 80lb mono. its expensive stuff.


Since I also tourney cast, this is what I use. I just buy enough to use for both. Great stuff, 80lb with .75mm diameter. I also have to get my tourney main line from the UK so i just order it all from Veals online. It really isn't that bad when you compare to what some people pay who are using braid line.

CB


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## barty b (Dec 31, 2004)

vbflyfisher said:


> with 80lb your shock knot would be HUGE, unless you got that expensive suffix leader mat. only available in the uk. it has a diameter of 50lb mono, and breaking strength of 80lb mono. its expensive stuff.


Tell ya what, That stuff is worth every penny...Sakuma "rig body"..The 80 is like 50 and the 50 is like 30. Takes an albright VERY well. Not really THAT expensive, I think i paid somthing like 40 bucks shipped from the UK for 2 100M spools of 80 and 2 100M spools of 50. 10$ for a 100M spool aint bad.


I would guess about a 25-30% increase in distance,givin the same variables,with braid over mono.


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## Fireline20 (Oct 2, 2007)

wolfgang said:


> 2) Mono or braid?? Again, I'd rather stick with what I know, but if the braid is better then...
> 
> 4) What's a good rod/reel combo for a first distance caster that won't break the bank? I'd probably be looking to spend a max of $150 (that's total for rod and reel). Is that realistic? Anything decent in that price range? If not, what's the minimum I should expect to spend for a quality first rod/reel setup for distance casting?



Late answers on this but I will weigh in on questions 2 and 4.

As to mono or braid, take the middle road and go with Berkley Fireline in the 20-30 lb range. Has all the distance casting advantages and lack of memory of braid with the durability and abrasion resistance of mono.

As to good surf combo for under $150 go with the Daiwa Emcast Plus 5000 or 5500 ($70) and put that on a Daiwa Eliminator 11ft 2pc Graphite for $49. Put 100-150 yards of Ande 50 lb as a backer and filll the rest of the spool up with Fireline 20 lb Crystal about $30.

Voila;

You have a great Surf combo for $150


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## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

wolfgang said:


> My general question is...how would one who knows absolutely nothing about distance casting get started? (I have more specific questions at the end of this entry)...
> 
> Here's where I'm at. I've been surf fishing for about four years (OBX and SC). Have had some pretty good success catching fish, but would like to take it to the next level. I use standard plain jane gear...spinning reels spooled with mono on 10 foot rods slinging 4 to 6 ozs of lead. My casting technique even with this modest setup leaves a little bit to be desired.
> 
> ...


wolfgang,

You've gotten some great advice here. It os perfectly fine to use spinning gear and these guys have pointed you in the right direction.

I'll take a shot at questions 4 & 5. 

4 - You will be hard pressed to find a rod and reel combination that will really perform casting 4-6 oz of lead for 150.00. The AFAW 6nbait 11,12 or 13' will give you very good performance but the rod alone will run more than 150.00. If at all possible, save your money and buy the best quality that you can afford. It will save you money in the long run, you will not need to upgrade as quick.

5 - Learn the ground cast. It is the fundamental cast. Get it down pat and the others (Beach cast, Brighton cast, Pendulum cast) will come much easier. You can practice proper technique without the added complication of a swinging lead.

Hope this helps,

Tommy


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## curtisb (Jul 21, 2004)

Ok on number 5. you can either buy a video like Nick Meyer has at Breakaway and Ron Arra has a video out that's good or you can get on YouTube and watch Nick or Tommy's videos. Just search for casting.

CB


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## redneckranger (Jan 19, 2006)

bloodworm said:


> barty b said:
> 
> 
> > You will get MANY different answers and opinions but in a nut shell...
> ...


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## barty b (Dec 31, 2004)

Who said anything about a pier?


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## Surf Fish (Dec 16, 2005)

redneckranger said:


> Really why is that i have used braid of off piers with great results


I give up. Why?


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## HellRhaY (Jul 6, 2007)

Surf Cat said:


> if seeking optimium casting distance with spinners I would difinitely learn to use braid. Braid is what allows spinners to keep up to some degree with conventionals as far as distance casting goes, and I'm sure in the right hands many can cast farther with braid on spinners than they can with conventionals.
> 
> You can always keep a spare spool reeled up with mono for visiting "da point".
> 
> ...





Surf Cat said:


> Too many variables to give you a specific distance. Besides I have never set out to measure the actual difference, no two casts are equal, etc, etc.
> 
> Consider this, 30lb mono would be tough to get any distance out of. 30lb braid is the equivalent of 8-10 lb mono in diameter. So as your cast length increases the reel spool isn't emptying nearly as fast as with that thick mono. You no longer have a big spool lip to clear towards the end of the cast. Take into consideration the limpness of braid and you haave another advantage over mono.
> 
> ...





Tommy said:


> wolfgang,
> 
> You've gotten some great advice here. It os perfectly fine to use spinning gear and these guys have pointed you in the right direction.
> 
> ...


 i agree with both of these guys.
here's my 2 cents.

I am a 99% spinner guy, being 1% conventional on boats. In my case, i didn't try to learn conventional because i have a dumb thumb. But I will tell you this, with the right equipment you'll get an extremely good distance with a spinner with the right gear.

For a spinner looking for max distance, braid is a necessity, breakaway cannon is a necessity, long shallow spool reel is a necessity. these things are necessary to match distance with conventionals.

i am not a tournament distance caster, hell, if i join a competition i bet my dad would not accept me as his son. but i will tell you this, i can get decent distance with my spinning gears that i dont need to learn conventionals.


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## eric (Oct 24, 2007)

IMO for myself.
throwing light weight stuff > i use spinner with 30lb braid or fireline

throwing heavy > my trusty slx or gwz winch.



i can stand the abuse on my index finger throw 1-3oz no problem. cause i use a cannon. HAHHA
but when launching 6oz on a spinner... i really dont like the feel of line coming off the cannon.
it sounds like what you hear, when you shock knot snags the stripper and snaps.

with heavy payloads,, a winch with athletic tape on thumb, your good to go.
you seamlessly load the rod, and shouldnt hear that dreaded pop sound.


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## wolfgang (Nov 7, 2007)

To all:

Many thanks for all of the great feedback.

This may be a dumb question, but...does using braid eliminate the need for a shock leader?

From what I've gathered so far, it sounds like braid is the great equalizer. In other words, a spinner with braid can acheive about what a conventional with mono can.

So...that being said (and assuming for the moment that it's an accurate statement)...if I can eliminate the distance advantage of a conventional over a spinner simply by spooling the spinner with braid...what other advantages are there to learning to use the conventional? What else do I gain by making the switch from spinners?


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## wolfgang (Nov 7, 2007)

_As to mono or braid, take the middle road and go with Berkley Fireline in the 20-30 lb range. Has all the distance casting advantages and lack of memory of braid with the durability and abrasion resistance of mono._

What exactly do you mean that Fireline is "middle of the road"?? Is it not a true braid?


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## eric (Oct 24, 2007)

fireline is gelspun line.
you need to google for a definition.

FL harder then braid. meaning,, the feel
not spongy, has some memory, but quickly straightens and loses it.
has a mean break strength of 50~lb.
30lb FL, is like 15lb mono size.
abrasion is pretty good on FL, ive used it till the main line near clip, unwound itself into 3-4 strands,
yet it still holds up for that trip.


braid has no memory, can be spongy. not good, cause it can dig in itself when spongy.
and cause all headaches. 

both lines are ~ the same in features. 
comes down to preference. i like FL myself.


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## HellRhaY (Jul 6, 2007)

most of the time braid will eliminate the need for shock leaders. take for example the 20# fireline, it has been tested by IGFA standard to break at 54#. that eliminates the use of a 50# shock leader.

fireline is inbetween mono and braid.
fireline is made of dyneema while braid is made of spectra fibers.


_"From what I've gathered so far, it sounds like braid is the great equalizer. In other words, a spinner with braid can acheive about what a conventional with mono can."_

you can ONLY achieve what a conventional can do if you have the right gears. Having braid alone doesnt guarantee and will ALWAYS NEVER guarantee that you'll get the same distance as a conventional. you must have the right rod and the right reel to give a conventional a run for its money. 

in other words, you must have the RIGHT equipments. with a $150 budget it would really be stretching it.


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## eric (Oct 24, 2007)

not to mention the bawls.. to power cast that thin a line with a cannon. lol


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

wolfgang said:


> To all:
> 
> Many thanks for all of the great feedback.
> 
> ...



Conventionals ahh, no greater joy than making an extreme cast, hearing the whirr of the bearings wind up to 20,000 + rpm, get the lead out and flying and have the bait touch down safely at the end of the cast. I have no doubt that for some the simple challenge of the conventional is what brings them to it. Traditionally drag systems on conventionals have had the advantage, tho the higher priced spinners have vastly improved drag sytems.

Cost advantage- generally still goes to the conventional. A good Daiwa or Penn 525 conventional can be had for $150.00 or less, the true quality distance spinners Hellrhay is speaking of go for much, much more than that.

I have some very tricked out modified conventional tournament reels that have less than $500.00 invested in them. Check out some of the top of the line spinners made by Daiwa or Shimano- retail price out of the box can be over $700.00, that's to get a reel that's trying to compete with an out of the box $150.00 conventional.


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## TreednNC (Jul 1, 2005)

EDIT:see next post


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## TreednNC (Jul 1, 2005)

barty b said:


> Now Jim, You've seen me throw a full pound payload while shark fishin with 80lb shockleader.
> 
> Seriously, I think 80 is plenty for any drum fishing applications,but I see your point.


Have 'thrown' a pound of lead and a big bunker head before on 50lb with no problem. I think your tip speed is so reduced at that time that 50lb will handle fine.


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## curtisb (Jul 21, 2004)

TreednNC said:


> Have 'thrown' a pound of lead and a big bunker head before on 50lb with no problem. I think your tip speed is so reduced at that time that 50lb will handle fine.


Probably so, but for safety reason it is always better to go a little heavy. I have snapped off my 80lb shocker before(and yes it broke the shock leader not the main line) with a tourney rod and only a 150gram sinker with a hard hit tourney cast(and yes I check my line quite often even on a tourney rod). I didn't make the rule it has been around alot longer than my 46 years I have been here. The new 60lb lines are good, but the new 80lb lines like made in the UK are even better.

CB


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## TreednNC (Jul 1, 2005)

curtisb said:


> Probably so, but for safety reason it is always better to go a little heavy. I have snapped off my 80lb shocker before(and yes it broke the shock leader not the main line) with a tourney rod and only a 150gram sinker with a hard hit tourney cast(and yes I check my line quite often even on a tourney rod). I didn't make the rule it has been around alot longer than my 46 years I have been here. The new 60lb lines are good, but the new 80lb lines like made in the UK are even better.
> 
> CB


True. You guys are the experts. Better safe than sorry they say. But it was like you said, hard hit tourny cast. Even if it was only 150grams.


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## waywack40 (Oct 7, 2007)

Possible starting point for gear.
Spinning outfit.

12" Tica Rod UEHA836502S $102.00
Tica Reel TICA Scepter GX Series Gx5000 $62.00

Use 20 lb braid line; 50lb shock leader. 

This reel will hold 340 yds 20lb braid. If more capacity needed use 6000, 8000, 10000 models.


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## barty b (Dec 31, 2004)

TreednNC said:


> Have 'thrown' a pound of lead and a big bunker head before on 50lb with no problem. I think your tip speed is so reduced at that time that 50lb will handle fine.


I agree, It is NOT a "power cast" by ANY means...More of a "power lob"


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## HellRhaY (Jul 6, 2007)

waywack40 said:


> Possible starting point for gear.
> Spinning outfit.
> 
> 12" Tica Rod UEHA836502S $102.00
> ...


you dont need the 50# shock leader, 20# fireline breaks at 54#.
i have no hands on experience on the set-up you mentioned so i can't comment on that.


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## TreednNC (Jul 1, 2005)

HellRhaY said:


> you dont need the 50# shock leader, 20# fireline breaks at 54#.
> i have no hands on experience on the set-up you mentioned so i can't comment on that.



Yeah but the thin diameter will slice right through your fingers when trying to put a fish on the beach


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## HellRhaY (Jul 6, 2007)

TreednNC said:


> Yeah but the thin diameter will slice right through your fingers when trying to put a fish on the beach


use a leader 12-24inches, but not a shock leader that runs from your reel upto the tip of your rod then back to your spool and wrap 5x.


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## eric (Oct 24, 2007)

use OM cps spinning lite 3-6
damn rod is strong enough to lift fish...


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## wolfgang (Nov 7, 2007)

HellRhaY said:


> you can ONLY achieve what a conventional can do if you have the right gears.



Can you explain this...I don't understand what the gears on a spinner have to do with the cast?


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## HellRhaY (Jul 6, 2007)

placement and size of the guides
braid is a necessity
long, huge, tapered spools









when using braid, the placement and the size of the stripper guide is a huge factor in attaining max distance.
braid is a necessity, with braid no large spools would come off the reel because braid has no memory unlike mono.
long, tapered spools would almost eliminate the friction of hitting the spool lip compared to ordianry spools.

new technology have been developed on the spinner side for max distance.


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## wolfgang (Nov 7, 2007)

Sorry HellRhay...I think I must have misunderstood your initial comments. I thought you were referring to the actual _*GEARS*_ in the reel (which made no sense to me). But apparently you just meant gear in general. I understand all the stuff about longer, tapered spools, etc. 

But can't all that be had a fairly reasonable price, such as a Diawa Emcast?


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## HellRhaY (Jul 6, 2007)

wolfgang said:


> But can't all that be had a fairly reasonable price, such as a Diawa Emcast?


yes, the daiwa emcast is a very good reel for the price (although i don't have one) the emcast has a 35mm spool the same as the 2 spools on the right.
i've read some comments from people who owns them that they are really good reels.


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## wolfgang (Nov 7, 2007)

Bass Pro Shops has a combo deal that features their 12' heavy Ocean Master rod (rated for 6-12 oz lure) teamed with a Diawa Emcast Plus. The combo retails for $160(which is $40 less than if the rod and reel are purchased separately). Do you think this would be an adequate entry level "heaver"? (BTW, its just the regular Ocean Master, not the Cape Point version).


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## curtisb (Jul 21, 2004)

HellRhaY said:


> placement and size of the guides
> braid is a necessity
> long, huge, tapered spools
> 
> ...


HellRhay, what reel does the big spool on the left fit.


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## HellRhaY (Jul 6, 2007)

curtisb said:


> HellRhay, what reel does the big spool on the left fit.


from left to right"

daiwa basia, shimano spin power, daiwa powersurf


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