# Setup for 10-14 oz



## Idaho fish (Apr 1, 2004)

I need help to find a rod/reel setup to toss 10-14oz (bait included)when fishing for 3 to 9 foot sturgeon on the Snake River in Idaho. They tell me I need to cast 75 +yards with 40lb line and usually 10oz into the fast water. I have a new Okuma Celilo 11' rated 4-16oz and on order a Okuma Solaris 12' 4-8oz (probally a little light). I have never tried to cast that far without a spinning reel. Will my penn 500 or 330 cast that far? or do I need to look for new reel and or rod? I am 4 hours from the river so there is limited information about gear and gear selection. Won't braded line cut the (non Fuji) guides on the Celilo? The site is great and makes me want to move back to the coast.


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## Idaho fish (Apr 1, 2004)

*setup for 10-14 oz*

I need 300 yds min and gear cost is a concern for only 2-3 weekends a year.


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## longcaster (Oct 3, 2000)

*Official Welcome*

Hi "Idaho fish",

At this time I would like to "Officially Welcome" you to the "Distance Casting" forum.


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## Connman (Apr 14, 2001)

The 500 wil do it but you need to control the spool well . Hawaiians cast 10oz + for Ulua and seem to like the penn 555 and Newells for the lighter line 40lb classes . I would think you would want a low gear ratio for fighting these big fish .


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## Wtrdog (Jun 18, 2003)

Braided line will cut the guides on the Celilo. SurfMan has one, and cut the tip out with Power Pro, (won't cut guides my a$$) nice rod rated to 16 but the tip seems soft. He's thrown 8 just to try it and it worked but the tip seems soft for 10-14. I'd try it out before you go. otherwise I have a Ocean Master 6-12, and it seems a lot stiffer over all than the Celilo.


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## Bonito6t9 (Dec 2, 2003)

*Stump Heaver*

I think i have just what you wanted..i have a 9ft custom made heaver for fighting large gamefish(sharks, black drum,etc.).. You can get these rods made i just dont really know who to ask... but i cast 14oz.w/bait no problem and i know for a fact that it would take down a big sturgeon... the reel of choice on this rod would be the abu ambassador BG10000... "perfection" is the word im looking for...i have 30lb test on it right now and i cast 125yrds on a good throw 100-115average... couldnt ask for a better big game setup....tightlines



Fred


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## Bonito6t9 (Dec 2, 2003)

*CORRECTION!!*

I didnt read about how much you were going to use it per season... just get a Daiwa Beef Stik and an Abu BG 9000... slow gear ratio and the rods only 20$$ but i no someone who has had one for a while and it still is in great shape...


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## SurfMan (Jun 4, 2003)

*Celilo Junk*

I have the 11' Celilo. it is not a bad rod for the $50.00 it costs, but the guides are Crap. As WtrDog stated, braided line will cut right through them. They could have at least used Fuji guides!

Also, it may say that it is rated for 4-16 oz but in fact it is not! The most I have casted was 8oz, and it feels as though it is going to SNAP! I have a 12 ft OM rated 3-6 and it is much stiffer and stronger than the Celilo. I can cast it much better and farther.

For a reel, I have to say that I am on the Abu Garcia 7000 Big Game. Over 300+ yards of 17lb test, and cast very nice.

Good luck, and don't forget to post some sturgeon pictures!
- Surfman


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## SurfMan (Jun 4, 2003)

*Rod Choice....*

Sorry for the double post...
You can't go wrong with the OM 6-12 either... Wtrdog has it and the Abu 7000 BG and casts easily to 100 Yards. That is going to be one hell of a shock leader for 10-12 OZ weight.

Standard Rule..
10 Lb mono per each 1 Oz of weight 

3 Oz = 30 Lb Test
5 Oz = 50 Lb Test
10 OZ = 100 Lb Test
14 OZ = 140 LB Test

That is going to make for a very large knot at the shock leader (recomended albright not), may hit some levelwinds.... just something to keep in mind while reel shopping!
- Surfman


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## Connman (Apr 14, 2001)

This was a topic on another board , the 10lb per oz rule for shock leaders was devised for British power casting with 5 and 6 oz . You don't normally general the same speed with the heavier leads so 50-80lb shock is more than enough for any type of casting regardless of the weight IMHO.


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## SurfMan (Jun 4, 2003)

*F=MA*

I would definately agree that with heavier loads, your speed is not as great as with lighter loads. I learned of the rule from Ron Arra, a five time surf casting champion. I have never thrown above 8 Oz so I am not sure, you may be right. 

Although, Physics states that Force is equal to Mass multiplied by Acceleration. There for although you may not through with as much acceleration as a 4 OZ the mass could make up the difference and cause break-offs. After all it is the force of the weight pulling on the line that causes the break-off, not just the weight itself.

Again, have not had to cast that much weight so I really am not sure. But, usually physics does not lie 
- Surfman


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## Connman (Apr 14, 2001)

UH O , we have another engineer in the house . The force is a constant , self balancing equation ,as the weight goes up the acceleration drops . In lay mans terms there is a limit to the force any particular caster can generate , just because you cast a heavier lead doesn't increase that maximum force , if you could then you could cast 12oz as far as a 6oz lead which doesn't happen .


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## Fish Hunter (Jul 31, 2002)

*I wanna see*

Bonita cast 10nbait 125 yds with a 9' rod.


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## Fish Bait (Feb 10, 2003)

I think Surfman is on target (you can’t fool Newton). The force will change in proportion to change in either mass or acceleration.

Connman, you may have a point that there is an upper limit to how much force a given caster can generate.


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## Idaho fish (Apr 1, 2004)

*Thanks for all the info.*

I think I will look in to an OM 6-12 and a 9'-10' Daiwa beefstick for others to use. I'm also looking to upgrade the penn 500 after the trip to a penn 545 or 555 or a newell 332 or 338(275+ yds of 40lb mono). 

1) Is there a place to buy these online ? As far as the shock leaders I agree with all of you to a degree. At some point the heavy weight/mass reduces the acceleration thus reducing the force. A graph of the force would probally look like a bell curve with 6 -8 oz being at the top. Has anyone tried to measure the force with a scale (in line) that records the maximun weight/force? I would think that 80 lb would be enough depending on the type of cast. 2) What casting style should I use for the 10-12oz? (OTG if terrain permits)
3) Is there a video that instructs and demonstrates proper technique for each style of casting? Thanks


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## HuskyMD (May 19, 2000)

the only place you can buy the oceanmaster online is BassPro Shops. thats www.basspro-shops.com I think. 
Are you really gonna use 40 lb test? that'll really cut down your casting distance.


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## HuskyMD (May 19, 2000)

*I'm bored*

so here
http://www.basspro-shops.com/servle...arClassCode=2&hvarSubCode=4&hvarTarget=browse


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## SurfMan (Jun 4, 2003)

*Conmann has a point*

Sorry to throw my engineering crap out on the table like, but thanks for calling me out Connman!  You know we are just dumb fisher folks!!!! (JK)

As terribly geeky as I can be, I decided to set up a spreadsheet with hypotheticals, and there is basically a limit. Although, it is entirely possible for someone like Schwarzenager to snap 80 Lb test shock with a 12 Oz weight! Basically, though it is a bell curve for the force applied to the learder.
- Surfman


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## Idaho fish (Apr 1, 2004)

40 lb seems to be the norm with the couple of people that I have talked with. They have been spooled and broke off once in the last 20 days of fishing. Their reel holds aprox 230 yds.
I also did some calculating and estimated the acceleration at 100 feet per second for 8 oz. The max force occured at a higher weight than I thought it would (about 14 oz and acceleration reduced to 73.5 fps- minus 10% compounding for each ounce above 8). Maximum force was 64.3 lbs.


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## SurfMan (Jun 4, 2003)

*Smart Geeks*

who hide behind the ******* fishing mask... who would have ever thounk it? LOL

Remember, We anna see some pics of you and a might sturgeon... Good luck and tightlines,
- Surfman


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## Dyhard (Oct 24, 2002)

I am impressed not by the splendid math, but by the size of the thumb that it would take to hold back that force!


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## Connman (Apr 14, 2001)

Surfman , eyes an enganeer two , can't ya tel from ma fonetic speelin .
I would love to see the equations youse guys used to calculate the forces involved . Had a friend modify an archery chrongraph to measure the velocity of a 6oz lead on a 600'+ cast and it was under 300ft/sec. If he (Bob) sees this he can provide exact details.


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## SurfMan (Jun 4, 2003)

I am impressed that you got the weight to go through the Chonograph...... It must be different than mine. With mine the arrow (or bullet) has to pass between two sensors a given distance apart....... And they have those stupid triangular visors!!!!!!!! Granted, mine is a bit older. 

Fo me, going through my Long distance surf casting book, I picked up some hypothetical accerlation values that were stated in the text. Then I , admittianly sloppily, decrease the acceleration a bit. the thing that I realized it that the accelration will decrease more than the weight increases, so the weight does not increase the force as much as I would have inittially thought.

The thing to be careful of with the chronograph is that it is giving you Velocity, therefore mutlplying the velocity by the mass will only gove you Momentum of the cast, not the force. A slightly different way of looking at it I suppose. 

BTW, a 600' cast... I am very envious... can't break the 400' barrier! And I know it striclty technique at this point. Nicely done,

- Surfman


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## Big Lou (Jul 29, 2001)

*weight shock???*

Can't tell you much about force,velocity etc,,, just what I have seen or done.
Seen 50 lb shock pulled apart by a power cast on a 150 gram weight. 
Stiffer rods seem to exert more pressure to caster and weight but not neccessarily more distance.
I did cast 16 oz 464 ft with a 15 ft rod and 80 lb shock. The weight went thru the air like a hand grenade (slow motion)
with a very audible THUMP when it landed. 
So I am with the idea that 80 lb shock is about all a caster will ever need to be safe from breakoffs during a cast.


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## Connman (Apr 14, 2001)

Hi Lou , good input , if you can hit 16oz on a 80lb shocker then anyone can . Tell me it wasn't a pendulum cast .
I have ground cast 12oz about 400' + and test driving a quattra sport last weekend cast 8oz 643' all on 50lb shock leader . I agree with you Lou that the rod can make a huge difference in the stress put on the leader , likewise the casters technique also places different stresses on the leader.


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## mroczka (Apr 23, 2001)

I would just call a few bait shops in the area your going to fish and see what they recommend. I rather support the little guys making a living in a bait shop. Lots of bait shops also have rentals. Its nice to try a rod before you buy one.


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## Jacktrevally (Dec 31, 2003)

*Force?*

Hello guys, if I calculate the force, can I use the formula Force= MV^2/R. Where M is the mass, V is the velocity and the R is the radius. This is the formula for circular motion. If the sinker does move in a circular motion and in the cast goes linear therefore it can be assumed that the cast shoot off tangential to the circular motion it was into.

Another way to view it, is the tip of the rod is the centre of the circle and the tension in the line is centrifugal.


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## Wtrdog (Jun 18, 2003)

man my brain hurts trying to follow all this.  i just know that I need to learn technique to get my casting down. If you think of it like golf the longer rod will produce more speed because of length. But if it's longer it's harder to get the same speed as a shorter rod that you maybe more comfortable with. I cast my 10' and 12' OM's the same right now. All my own casting issues on why distance isn't greater.


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## skunked (Jun 4, 2001)

Just a weird question.. why do you need to cast 10-16 oz?


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## Idaho fish (Apr 1, 2004)

There is alot of current below the dam with the river comming up or down as much a foot in only a couple of minutes. Usually 8-12 oz + an ounce or two of bait. One a rare occasion 20 oz has been used durring heavy spring runnoff.


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## skunked (Jun 4, 2001)

Ahhhh. Have you tried some of the different type sinkers? Frogs toungue or maybe some of the sputnik style? They hold better in current than other styles. Whicj style are you using now?


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## Idaho fish (Apr 1, 2004)

They tell me that the bottom is very rocky and that I can expect to lose a few. Pyramid and tear drop bank sinkers are generally used. Are the spudniik style the ones with the wire kind of like a treble hook? I am willing to try anything but I have not seen them for sale. Never heard of frog tounge ones.


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## bassn (Jun 12, 2003)

Well, if the bottom is rocky and you already know you are going to lose a few, don't go with the sputniks...if you are gonna lose a few, you know you are holding bottom, use a bank or a piramid, just up the weight a little..Aren't you already thinking of throwing 10-14 oz? I think that should do...

todd


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## skunked (Jun 4, 2001)

The sputnicks are the one's with the wires, frog sinkers look kinda like an arrowhead with the eye in the "V".


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## Connman (Apr 14, 2001)

Have you considered using anchored leads like the breakaway or gemini, they hold better than heavy leads, are easier to cast 

http://breakaway-tackle.co.uk/softy.jpg


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## Bonito6t9 (Dec 2, 2003)

*I agree w/ Bassn*

WHY go out and spend the money on anchor sinkers and exspensive duckbill sinkers (aka frog tounges).... go for the pyramids or something around the house... when fishing for rocks around the rocks if we r using herring or any type of cut bait we use big spark plugs as weights... this may sound a little odd but if you tie the knot around the arm which enables the "gap" on the spark plug u can get your rig back but without loosing the 1.49 weight... I know the rigs for these sturgeon are probably exspensive b/c it looks to me these creatures aren't nothing more then freshwater nerf sharks... being a shark fisherman i prefer shark but if i were to go freshwater, sturgeon it would be... tightlines



Fred


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## Connman (Apr 14, 2001)

Anchored spudnik sinkers will snag less then other sinkers , they don't roll around and fall into crevices or get wedged between rocks as much as others because of the wire .


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## dave jolly (Apr 22, 2004)

a couple of points, 
1, you will never break a shock leader of 80lb, no matter what lead weight you use, or casting style, you cannot generate enough tip speed, or force.
the higher the weight, the slower the cast = less force acting on the leader, also the smoothness of the cast has a lot to do with it, John Holden and others can cast over 200 yds with 5oz and no leader!! (15/17lb) in level line events, the rest of us mere mortals must use the 10lb rule, but 80 is all you will need, if its good enough for Danny moeskops its good enough for us.

2, why cast 10/14oz ? a breakaway uptide extra lead (7oz) usually works over here in 80' of water and 4 knots tide to anchor a bait to the bottom, it has to be more sporting than letting the fish swim around with 14oz hanging off his jaw!

3, to all the guys who did the maths, you made my head hurt!!,


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## Bonito6t9 (Dec 2, 2003)

*Dave Jolly*

10 to 12 oz of weight is nothing in a 9 ft. long sturgeons mouth...tightlines...


Fred


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## fishin fool2 (Dec 8, 2003)

*good point Connman*

I hear what you are saying. I was thinking the same thing before I read your reply. I use them at Lynhaven ( lots of snags) they dont hang as much. By the way thank you for your advice on eye placement for the Primo Synchro as well as the endorsement for the blank. It is SWEET!! Lou Renya A.K.A. Heaver  built is like you suggested.


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## Idaho fish (Apr 1, 2004)

Fished the last two days with out any luck for the sturgeon. In the morning there was a lot of water being released and 10 + bait was not quite enough. A couple of hours later and 20" less water being released 8 and bait was enough. I did see a 7 footer jump and about a 5' one come to the surface. I did see one hooked and lost and was told that one spooled a guy (300yds 40#)after I left. I lost only one setup but you have to retie the weight every 3rd cast due to the rocks. I would like to use spudniks because it was hard to load the rod when casting around trees and the steep bank in a few spots. Can spudniks be made? Where can I order them-no one around here has them. Thanks, Kent

ps, I did catch my first smallmouth bass and 9 more to 1 1/2 lbs 
and 2 carp 13 and 15 lbs on my 6lb line trout setup.


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## longcaster (Oct 3, 2000)

Hi "Idaho fish",

I will check on sputnik type sinkers. When I get some answers I will get back to you.


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## big brother (May 15, 2002)

try here
http://www.breakawayusa.com/pages/cart-1.htm
charlie


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## longcaster (Oct 3, 2000)

I already checked and they were out of the 6 ounce and 7 ounce grip leads.


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## da yooper (Jul 30, 2001)

*Dont use 12oz wt!!*

Can I get a word in edgewize...
I have only been surf fishing on Chesapeake
Bay and VA Beach for 2yrs now; and I have
noticed noones mentioned "Spider sinkers"

SO is it to snaggy there for spiders?
I know that spiders would work great at some
spots on the Great Lakes -- but move over
10 mi and you are on a rocky reef...

But they will hold hold bottom with LESS LEAD


da yooper


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