# Spool overruns....



## justinfisch01 (Feb 19, 2006)

I was fishing yesterday, I was throwing 6 oz and I noticed that when I would cast my Abu 6501 the spool would start to overrun and the line would start to come off the spool almost birdnesting but by then end of the cast it would correct itself, Is this ok? I know that ever once in a while I am going to pay with a huge blow up. My second question is how do I ocrrect it? I would lov if someone could help me out


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## rattler (Jul 3, 2004)

you can try thicker oil to slow it down or thumb the spool lightly...hope this helps


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## surffshr (Dec 8, 2003)

you are on the ragged edge.
increase mags if you have them.


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## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

Spool speed control is a combination of several things.


Surffshr is on the money, you are on the ragged edge and need to calm the reel down just a bit. This can be accomplished several ways.

1 - More mags if it is a mag control reel.
2 - Thicker oil in the bearings.
3 - Lower line level.
4 - Educated thumbing of the spool.

I would try more mags first (if mag controlled). If not then try a drop of red rocket oil in each bearing. If it is still squirrelly then drop the line level about the thickness of a dime. Try those options one at at time until you get her under control. Use the educated thumb as a last resort if you are going for distance, anytime you touch the spool you really cut the distance in my opinion. 

A properly tuned spool shouldn't need thumbing until splashdown.

Tommy


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## justinfisch01 (Feb 19, 2006)

You might be right, I did have the reel blow up on me and now that I think about it it didn't start doing it until I respooled and I did put a little extrat line on it. I bet that is it!!!! Thanks for the help. It does have a knobby mag on it but it is a single magnet which is almost touching the spool as it is. I"ll try taking a little bit of line off. Thanks again
P.s. what do you meen by "ragged edge"?


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## TUMBLEYAK (Aug 4, 2004)

I have to think they are referring to being on the "ragged edge" as meaning you are about as close to a blow up, without blowing up as you can be. A slight change in technique, stronger head wind etc. and you'll be enjoying a bowl of birdnest soup!!


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## derekxec (Apr 26, 2006)

IMHO if you need mags you need to learn how to cast....you shouldnt need mags just learn how to thumb the spool as needed


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## justinfisch01 (Feb 19, 2006)

There is no way to "thumb" my spool the way it was overrunning, this hasn't happenedtill now, I was just asking what I started doing wrong all the sudden. I kinda took learning how to cast a little to heart, you aren't throwing up to 12 oz plus bait down there in Florida either


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## Black Beard (Jan 25, 2001)

*Thumbing - Why?*

As Tommy has already said, the whole idea of reel tuning is to use oil, line level, centrifugal brakes and/or magnets so the spool does NOT NEED thumbing.

A thumb was all we had to control things back in the dark ages with Squidders, Seaboys and Mitchel's, things have moved on, a well tuned reel will beat a thumb every time. And the scars heal quicker too! BB


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## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

Thumbing the spool absolutely works as a method of spool speed control. Does thumbing the spool make one an accomplished caster?? I guess it depends on the individual. There are a lot of guys out there that shun mag control and other methods of reel tuning. An educated thumb is a learned skill. It works in most circumstances and will prevent backlash.

For me, "learning to cast" a conventional reel started out by thumbing a Penn 545 on a 10' fiberglass drum stick rod. That was one cantankerous beast and it required a lot of thumb education to get it under control. Equipment upgrades over the years and a desire to learn how to obtain more distance led me to reel tuning. All things being equal, (caster skill and equipment) a spool that is balanced with the right combination of mags, oil, line level and end cap tension (non ultracast spool) WILL outcast a fast but thumbed spool. Everytime.

IMHO.

Tommy


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## derekxec (Apr 26, 2006)

justinfisch01 said:


> you aren't throwing up to 12 oz plus bait down there in Florida either


i dont know why people say that...i never throw anything less than 8oz + bait and even with a 12 oz it doesnt hold bottom we still have to let it cruise till it gets hung on a rock

i guess im old fashion but i dont have a problem casting as far as everyone else with a trinidad TN30 that has been greased/oiled one time in 6 years haha....i guess it could also be that im a bigger guy and can power the cast better than most


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## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

Old fashion doesn't mean wrong. If it works for you then that's what counts. 

I understand big and strong. I was determined a few years ago to prove i could just turn and bash it hard enough to outcast everyone on the beach. It worked great until I decided to try my hand at distance casting. Guys much smaller were kicking my butt on the field using good solid technique (and well tuned reels...lol). It took a while to get through my hard head but I got tired of coming up 200' behind the top casters. 

Everyone can learn and improve if they want. The information on techniques and equipiment is out there for those that want it. And it DOES apply to real fishing situations.

Like I said, thumbing works. There are just proven ways to tune a reel that will give more distance and control.

Tommy


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## Black Beard (Jan 25, 2001)

Oooooooh Tommy, do I sense a little back pedaling there??? 

No need, you were right the first time - LOL - BB

Oh, hope to get over in May.............


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## Black Beard (Jan 25, 2001)

Forgot - Knee surgery in January, so should be okay by May????


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## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

Neil,

Absolutley no back pedaling here. I learned the hard way that big and strong can get you to about 500'. After that you need technique, equipment and fine tuning to move to the next level.

A finely tuned reel is a wonderful thing.... lol

Tommy


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## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

Neil, are you going south (florida), north (jersey) or mid (NC)?? 

I've been working on a technique change (high swing baby... lol) and would really like to spend a day in the field with you.

Kim and I would be glad to host you.

Tommy


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## derekxec (Apr 26, 2006)

i feel ya...i never really looked into distance casting...Tommy i hate you! now im sitting here wondering what im doing right and what im doing wrong haha


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## Black Beard (Jan 25, 2001)

Tommy said:


> Neil, are you going south (florida), north (jersey) or mid (NC)??
> 
> I've been working on a technique change (high swing baby... lol) and would really like to spend a day in the field with you.
> 
> ...


Probably North and middle, have no definite schedule as yet, not making too many plans until after the knee job and see how it progresses.

High swing huh, there seems to be a swing - no pun intended - towards it, have three, scratch that, four big hitters asking me about it it currently???

Thanks for the offer, will keep you posted - Neil


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## Cor (Oct 6, 2006)

Lots of good information here.

I have only become aware of the existence of “mags” in reels the past year or so and have not yet had the opportunity to try them. I once tried the centrifugical brakes on one of my Diawa's and removed them next to the sea as I found it a hindrance.

I regard a bit of line “bunching” as normal when casting but the trick is to control it and not let it develop in to an overrun. 4 or 5 loose coils on the reel seems OK to me, but suspect it is a bigger problem when casting braid. I can cast nearly as well in total darkness as I control my reel mostly by feel and perhaps sound.

QUESTION
Will a very competent caster obtain better distance with mags then without, assuming that all the devices aimed at reducing overruns impact on the reels ability to spin freely?


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## kingfish (Feb 28, 2004)

*my answer*

Probably not. But that very accomplished caster will certainly see the value in the instant adjustability of the the reels tune for prevailing conditions, and with the additional variable may find some distance.


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## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

The basics of all cast control is an attempt to match the rotational speed of the spool with the speed that the sinker/bait or lure is pulling line off of the reel. A spool that is fluffing ever so slightly is actually "feeding" line off the spool and will result in the best distance. A spool too slow will put drag on the line and slow the spool speed too quickly.The problem is keeping this balance. 

On the initial hit the lead accelerates quickly but begins an almost immediate deceleration as soon as the thumb is released. It decelerates up to the appex, then begins the decent back to the water or field. On this decent the lead will accelerate a little as it's heading back to mother earth. The spool on the other hand wants to continue to accelerate as the lead launches skyward then begin a slow deceleration. This accelerate-decelerate- accelerate again nature of the cast makes it difficult to maintain the balance between spool and line.

You need a method of controlling the initial surge. Brake blocks, magnets and oil do a great job here. With the blocks, the harder you hit it the more centrifical force is applied hence more braking. Magnets also work great in this part of the cast. The problem with non adjustable mag reels is that the magnetic field stays in effect throughout the cast and will hurt you on the other end when the lead is accelerating back to earth and less braking is required. Adjustable magnets are better for this reason. Bearing oil is also a great braking tool. Oil will change viscosity during the cast, thicker at the start, then thinning quickly as the spool settles out at speed. This gives dependable and repeatable results BUT you have to keep the reel serviced to maintain the performance. 

Reels that are "on the edge" will often fluff in midflight after the initial surge is over. This can usually be controlled by slightly lowering the line level. The reduction in effective spool diameter as the line peels off acts as a natural brake. The lower the level the more natural braking occurs. Sometimes removing just 10-20 yards of line can calm down an unruley reel that fluffs mid flight. 

Sorry for the loooong post. What I'm trying to say is that spool speed control can be accomplished several different ways. The important thing is to find what works best for you and use it. Don't be afraid to play around with different combinations.

And when all else fails.....

Use the educated thumb!!!!

Tommy


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## Shooter (Nov 14, 2004)

Lord knows I ain't no pro nor a rocket launcher but if you can toss either an Avet or ProGear without mags then you either have no finger prints left on your thumb or * I will leave that response for later*

But I did wittness a guy throwing a 525 with the mags set on Zero and no blowing up and in his own words he was a rookie,, so anything is possible I guess.


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## Digger (Jan 4, 2000)

Tommy said:


> Sorry for the loooong post. What I'm trying to say is that spool speed control can be accomplished several different ways. The important thing is to find what works best for you and use it. Don't be afraid to play around with different combinations.
> 
> And when all else fails.....
> 
> ...



The long post is what most poeple need to hear. You were teaching about the effects on the reel from casting in a very true and honest sense. I will say this if after looking into these points of the cast. You are still blowing up then look at your form. Yes the thumb is the orgininal brake and many of us can throw strange stuff using the thumb as the brake, but all thumbers use the form of the cast to reduce the amount of thumb used in the cast for the best distance. The body needs to learn as well. By the way I learned on a Custom built by Carl Overman and a Jigmaster 500L. What a Drum setup in its day.


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## Otter (Jun 18, 2004)

*heck of a coincidence*

I actually came here today to start a post on why-t-f I keep fluffing up and birdnesting my first 525. When I first purchased it I had BPS put some 17lb line on and I didnt birdnest once for weeks. I was really putting some arse into it and pushing the brakes down to 2-3 w/ little or no problems.

Since then I've been blowing up right at the apex of the cast ALOT. Let me know if any of these reasons sound right:


I've since put on 14lb line
I'm not respooling on retrieve evenly
does the right side spool tension knob need to be adjusted for different weight (it's impossible to turn w/ out a wrench) 
My technique hasn't changed since when I started

Lately I have to keep the mags up much higher than I would like just to keep it from happening. I've looked at all the advice above (very helpful) but if anything jumps out at you guys lemme know. Thanks.

Nick


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## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

Otter said:


> I actually came here today to start a post on why-t-f I keep fluffing up and birdnesting my first 525. When I first purchased it I had BPS put some 17lb line on and I didnt birdnest once for weeks. I was really putting some arse into it and pushing the brakes down to 2-3 w/ little or no problems.
> 
> Since then I've been blowing up right at the apex of the cast ALOT. Let me know if any of these reasons sound right:
> 
> ...


The 14 lb test is probably your biggest problem if you're blowing up mid cast. Especially if you have the spool filled to the same level as you did with the 17 lb. With the smaller diameter of the new line, the natural braking effect caused by the spool diameter decreasing is much less. You will need more mags or thicker oil to control the reel with the lighter line. 

Practice the line lay until it is second nature. A nice level lay is important. Something that will cause "mystery surging" is laying the line down erratically across the spool. You should use approx the same number of handle rotations to get across the spool each time going left and right. If you vary greatly the amount of line that is laid down from one "layer" to the next it will cause the reel to surge because it is feeding more or less line out per revolution. 

Another tip to avoid a blowup during a minor fluff - 

When winding in and you notice a valley or dip in the line level, don't fill in by going back and forth across the low spot with short quick back and forth movement. THIS WILL CAUSE A BLOWUP if the reel fluffs at that point in the cast. Make wide sweeps from the point of the dip all the way back to the side, all the way back across then back to the dip. 

Adjust the right side knob to give just a hint of lateral movement or "knock". Tightening down on the knob can damage the bearings on a 525 due to the bearings being located in the spool, not in the endplates. You are actually putting pressure on the inner race.

I hope this stuff makes sense...  

Tommy


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## Otter (Jun 18, 2004)

Tommy said:


> I hope this stuff makes sense...
> 
> Tommy


Very much yes. Now all I need is some tips for quickly cutting out very very deep backlashes. 

Thanks Tommy. Happy holidays.


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## justinfisch01 (Feb 19, 2006)

Yeah I could use tips on that to, and maybe some tips on respooling a little faster...


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## Digger (Jan 4, 2000)

Otter said:


> Very much yes. Now all I need is some tips for quickly cutting out very very deep backlashes.


Two words "crochet hook". the small one.

If you want an easy test, spool up the reel with 20 lb and try to hit it hard. Heavier line does wonders.


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## DickDog (Jul 19, 2006)

I fish abu consistently. Overrun is caused by the spool spinning faster than the rate at which line is coming off. There are three reasons i can think of which would cause this. 

1. The brakes are not tightened down enough...see below.

2. You are thumbing the spool during flight. Only do this upon "landing".

3. Your line is catching on something. ie. your thumb, guides, or the line itself.

Remedy: Make sure your Knots etc. are streamlined. Don't touch the line while in flight.
Every now now and again upon retrieve move line from one side of spool to other in a crisscross pattern to avoid line digging into itself.
tighten brakes as follows:
In free spool set brake so weight and bait is allowed to drop slowly towards the ground. If it falls to ground quickly then brake is too loose and you will blowup. If it doesnt drop at all then brake is too tight and you'll look like an amateur when it throws 5 yards. Not sure which is worse. If you have a centrifugal brake adjustment (like on the BY) as well adjust accordingly with 0 being tightest. These two systems work together to prevent backlash. Abus are precision instruments which must be fine tuned. They are not toys Atlanta King Once you master the Abu you will find out why they are so popular.....then you can teach me how to use it.


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

DickDog said:


> I fish abu consistently. Overrun is caused by the spool spinning faster than the rate at which line is coming off. There are three reasons i can think of which would cause this.
> 
> 1. The brakes are not tightened down enough...see below.
> 
> ...


Disagree here- that old method of drop testing is good for bass equipment and light lures- no way is it a valid test for heaving heavy weights- some abu reels are NOT designed to crank down on the spool tension as a means of adjusting spool speed- you need to add more brake blocks or heavier oil- not squeeze the crap outta the spool- if it is going to fast.


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

DickDog said:


> I fish abu consistently. Overrun is caused by the spool spinning faster than the rate at which line is coming off. There are three reasons i can think of which would cause this.
> 
> 1. The brakes are not tightened down enough...see below.
> 
> ...


Not picking on ya dog but IMO the number one reason beginners backlash (assuming a properly set up reel) is poor casting technique- developing a smooth cast is paramount to avoiding problems in the first place- but yes some overruns will oocur due to large knots, premature thumbing of the reel (technique again), etc. If the overrun occurs at the end of the cast- it is likely a timing issue, thumbing the reel too late- if it occurs early in the cast, either the reel is not set up properly(as you mentioned) or technique is questionable

I know it took me a while to get over the "snap" cast I had developed with spinning equipment when I first started casting conventionals.


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## njreloader (Jul 21, 2005)

This is a great thread. Just full of great info. Keep it coming I'm learning alot of things that I should be doing and haven't because I didn't know any better. Started using a Penn 525 Mag this year and have had only a couple minor blowups, but I've had the mags up pretty high.
Now I know some things that I can try and maybe be able to back off the mags somewhat.
Thanks


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

Digger said:


> Two words "crochet hook". the small one.
> 
> If you want an easy test, spool up the reel with 20 lb and try to hit it hard. Heavier line does wonders.


A small dental pic can be handy to, but if it's that deep



> Now all I need is some tips for quickly cutting out very very deep backlashes


you might as well get the small scissors out and start cutting away

It takes a lot of time and patience to get out a really nasty birdsnest and sometimes I don't bother because the line gets so kinked up I don't trust it after wards.

Not that I ever birdsnest mind you


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## DickDog (Jul 19, 2006)

Surf Cat said:


> Disagree here- that old method of drop testing is good for bass equipment and light lures- no way is it a valid test for heaving heavy weights- some abu reels are NOT designed to crank down on the spool tension as a means of adjusting spool speed- you need to add more brake blocks or heavier oil- not squeeze the crap outta the spool- if it is going to fast.


Disagree and Pick on me all you want but this is straight from ABU...i didnt make this crap up.
Specifically for the 6500 series reels.
I do agree with your statements about casting ability. If properly tuned the Abu's should be thrown with a smooth flowing motion. No need to put your ass into it. Also you may thumb the line as if you were a manual mag system but this should be left for experienced abu users and only after evrything else is tuned to perfection and as a last resort to avoid a blowup if your tuning wasnt so hot. Other than that me and ABU stick by what we said.


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

DickDog said:


> Disagree and Pick on me all you want but this is straight from ABU...i didnt make this crap up.
> Specifically for the 6500 series reels.
> I do agree with your statements about casting ability. If properly tuned the Abu's should be thrown with a smooth flowing motion. No need to put your ass into it. Also you may thumb the line as if you were a manual mag system but this should be left for experienced abu users and only after evrything else is tuned to perfection and as a last resort to avoid a blowup if your tuning wasnt so hot. Other than that me and ABU stick by what we said.


I'm only trying to point out that the tension knob is only for fine tuning when throwing light weights- which is what ABU assumes in their instructions. My point is that you cannot crank down on the tension knob enough to perform the drop test with, say a 4 oz sinker. It's fine for up to 1 oz or so, but beyond that you are cranking down too hard on the reel spool. 

And I'll stand by what I said, SOME abus were not designed to have the tension knob do anymore than center the spool- cranking down on them via the drop test has the potential to ruin bearings- I know because I learned the hard way on this issue.


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## DickDog (Jul 19, 2006)

Surf Cat said:


> I'm only trying to point out that the tension knob is only for fine tuning when throwing light weights- which is what ABU assumes in their instructions. My point is that you cannot crank down on the tension knob enough to perform the drop test with, say a 4 oz sinker. It's fine for up to 1 oz or so, but beyond that you are cranking down too hard on the reel spool.


Disagree. I do it with 8 and it works for me.
Good info here...Using the pointers here should take care of the overruns. Good Luck.


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

DickDog said:


> Disagree. I do it with 8 and it works for me.
> Good info here...Using the pointers here should take care of the overruns. Good Luck.



8?- maybe on a 7000 series or bigger reel. Small abus are used to throw 150 gram tournament sinkers all the time. But no one I know attempts to crush the spool as a means of speed control.Well you know what I mean- besides a tight spool isn't going to win any distance casting contest.

OH well- hopefully made my point. Off my soap box for now


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## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

Modern abu 5500-6500's with the ultracast spool design should NOT be controlled by cranking down on the end caps. This applies pressure to the inner bearing race (not the spindle end like the older 6000's and modern 7000 series) and will cause premature bearing failure, especially if the reels are being cast hard. 

Set for a centered spool with a slight amount of lateral play and then control the spooll speed with the other methods described in this thread.

The abu instruction manual is generic for all baitcasting reels and is outdated. Dog is right that it describes reel setup and tune this way but it does not apply to ultracast reels and really should be updated. 

Tommy


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## davewolfs (Dec 27, 2006)

I am using a SpeedMaster IV. Does it even have mags  I only have a side control knob and that is it.


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## barty b (Dec 31, 2004)

Justin, Listen to what Tommy and Black Beard are saying. They KNOW what they are talking about.

Davewolf. LOOSE THE SPEEDMASTER No it doesnt have mags. Pick up an Abu Mag Elite or a Penn 525 Mag, You will not regret it.


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## Digger (Jan 4, 2000)

davewolfs said:


> I am using a SpeedMaster IV. Does it even have mags  I only have a side control knob and that is it.


That reel is a boat reel made for trolling or drop fishing.


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## davewolfs (Dec 27, 2006)

Digger said:


> That reel is a boat reel made for trolling or drop fishing.


Considering that my fiance bought this as a gift and specifically told the shop that I would be using this at the beach, it upsets me that they would have given her something for the completely wrong purposes.


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