# Rest easy--they don't feel a thing



## sand flea (Oct 24, 1999)

For those of you who may have some lingering guilt about hurting fish, you can stop worrying.

P.S.: PETA, you can put that in your pipe and smoke it.


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## DavB (Apr 15, 2000)

Oh boy, forum fight!

I'm gonna disagree.  

Sorry, no hundred million dollars to spend on a study, but here is how I feel on the subject.

They gotta feel something and it must be unpleasant. 

Lets look at smaller fish. Why do they try to "fin" you? It is an defensive instinct learned over millions of years being swallowed.

It has to at least irritate the predator fish or it wouldn't work. Another reason why the predators generally swallow head first, eh?

Why do fish so often spit out the hook? Even when live bait is used? I could understand spitting out fake stuff like spoons and plastics.

Along the same lines, why does the bait fish struggle even more when you put the hook in it? I usually mouth hook them.

I will say fish must have tough mouths and a hook into them there would be a lot less pain that what we would feel with our pampered mouths.

Now the gloves are off, do your worst!

(OK, I'm really a PETA plant. You are all evil people!!!)

Do tomatos feel pain when you eat their children and wombs?...


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## Jighead (Dec 1, 2002)

I would say they have the sence of feel...but I don't know about pain. When they're imature they're pretty easy to catch...could they be learning from this experience?(biting into something with a hard object in it and getting ripped out of the water)

Fighting hard when hooked could just be instinct. Ever had someone sneak up behind you and grap you...my first reaction is to pull away fast...fish might just be doing the same.

Just my .02 cents and would not be the first time I was wrong.


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## poleant (Sep 26, 2002)

I agree with jighead it just seems to be a reaction to unnatural situation.Go to the store or mall and grab somebody you don't know,don't hurt them but I bet they will jump and maybe run.he!he!


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## Jimmy (Sep 23, 2002)

I agree also- the article said that fish do have the escape instinct- they know when something is trying to eat them(or when a foreign object is in their mouth) and they react accordingly to escape. But that is different from actually feeling the pain, and the article compared it to being numbed up for an operation, when you can see and know what's going on but not actually feel it.


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## HuskyMD (May 19, 2000)

Crap, so all those bullheads I smashed into rocks until they went splat as a kid was for not? They couldn't even feel pain?

Ah shucks.


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## DavB (Apr 15, 2000)

Hey Huskey, remember falling dreams, when you felt like you fell forever and woke up with a start in your own bed?

Thats kinda what you did for your bullheads.


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## sand flea (Oct 24, 1999)

What I got from this study (and several others) is that fish, since they have nerves, do indeed feel pain. But they process it so differently from us that it's not really what we consider pain, which is bound up with our memory and our capacity to experience fear both abstractly and concretely.

That's why I liked the metaphor they used about being under anasthesia: our nerves continue to transmit pain during surgery and our body responds to it the same way as if we were awake. But we don't really "feel" it the same way as if we were conscious.

PETA is guilty of the sin of (caution: big word) anthropomorphizing other animals, which is to say they project human characteristics onto non-humans. That's not to say I'm for animal cruelty or anything of the sort--I just thought the article was interesting and might spur some discussion while we wait for spring to come again.


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## DavB (Apr 15, 2000)

Anthromo-whatever...

Man, I'd love to lay that one down on a Scrabble game.


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## emanuel (Apr 2, 2002)

I always try to be as humane as possible with all fish I catch or use for bait. I do have my tree-hugging tendencies but that's not going to keep me from fishing. What I really hate to see is when people scale and clean their fish while it is still alive.


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## poleant (Sep 26, 2002)

Well not to get off the fish subject but I have a Big Rottweiller and the vet told me that these dogs can break bones and not really show signs off pain.It just goes to show ,we as humans,and peta can't just say what we believe is true without conducting some sort research which they (peta) don't do enouph of in my oppinion.But then again I would argue with them about anything.


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## Jighead (Dec 1, 2002)

Glad I didn't have ANTHROPOMORPHIZING on a spelling test in grade school...would have gone from my elbow to my wrist!!


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## fishnkid (Sep 30, 2001)

hey sand flea i read about that in sws. My opinion is the obviously feel a hook going through there mouth but cant feel pain. There natraul reaction is RUN or in there case swim because they have to have some knowledge of what happens when they get hooked.


P.S. I have been waiting for a peta member to come up to me and tell me fishing is bad so i can give them my opinion on there group. And its not a good one.


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## jay b (Dec 1, 2002)

Fish/Pain who cares??!!It's biblical, they were put on earth for the benefit of man, besides we're bigger and higher up the food chain. Fall overboard near a feeding shark and see if it worries about your pain!! Cleaning live fish, what's better freezing them to death first?? As far as PETA is concerned, I think it would be much crueler to make us eat tofu for the rest of our lives!! And yes I was dumb enough to try it once, not only does it look bad but, well you get the point. Not perfect, just my $0.02.


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## HuskyMD (May 19, 2000)

I have been labeled a greenie and even a treehugger in the past. I am nowhere near the level of the idiots in PETA and other orgs. 
I would never do the bullhead on the rocks bit nowadays. However, Emanual--I wonder about your comment. See, I take live spot and filet them for use as cut bait all the time. 
It was hard to do the first couple of times, but with the possibility of larger fish, I lose the inhibitions!
But, luckily, I've discovered livelining--so all I have to do is hook the spot by the dorsal fin and let the larger fish do the rest.
However, how is a bluefish chomping a spot any different than my cutting it up for bait?


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## emanuel (Apr 2, 2002)

I usually quickly sever the spinal cord on a fish, and remove the head whenever I clean one. I know that they don't get it that good when a shark or a blue eats them, but I hate to make anything suffer needlessly. I think of it this way, why make something suffer when you don't have to let it be that way?


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## Porter (Jan 20, 2003)

I would surmise that given the extreme conditions under which most fish live they must either have a limited sense of pain or an extremely high threshold.

Do fish feel pain? Human brain compared to a trout brain. http://www.vet.ed.ac.uk/animalwelfare/Fish%20pain/Pain.htm 


Simply Put:
"Pain is transmitted by specific neural pathways and receptors for pain may be activated by mechanical, thermal, or chemical stimuli. Fish possess these types of receptors in their skin. In humans, pain is sent to higher brain centers (prefrontal cortex) where it is perceived and the perception is associated with a powerful emotional experience. Fish, however, do not possess these well developed higher brain centers and thus they probably perceive a painful stimulus and react to it almost as a reflex. After the initial perception, they would not be bothered by the stimulus, similar to what occurs in humans who have had surgery to central brain regions to treat chronic pain." http://aquanic.org/publicat/state/il-in/faq/pain.htm 

""We've tagged and released 1,100 tailor for a research programme on the Swan River...we keep getting tagged fish back, so either they're pretty dumb, or they just don't remember the pain like we do." http://www.finefishing.com/1freshfish/humor%20and%20nostalgia/fishpain.htm 


So I guess it's similar to when the doctor taps your knee to test reflexes. 

The bottom line (no pun intended) is that nothing that lives free wants its freedom taken away. Fight or flight, nothing gives up freedom willingly.

My .02


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## jcreamer (Mar 6, 2001)

I have never really thought about the fish feeling any pain. I have always treated them as easily as I thought I could. Even when I used to hunt I waited for the cleanest shot. I guess it boils down to respect for the species right. May not sound right but I just woke up.


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## BigJeff823 (Oct 14, 2002)

I think every type of animal feels pain,but what do you call a Mountain Lion trying to kill a defensless Deer(cruelty).Do they ever think people have to kill things to survive like other animals.I mean the Mountain Lion needed to kill the Deer and eat them to survive.I like to eat fish as well as catching them,but I realese alot too.I can't help but feel bad when I think its ok to release a deep hooked fish and it dies when I see it in the water.


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## oceanviewace (Mar 11, 2000)

PETA's as well as many others including cat and dog lovers do tend to assign human attributes and characteristices to animals (and fish). It's kind of a lazy man's way of trying to understand the universe. 
I'm not going to stop fishing whether or not fish feel pain. But I do try to show respect for the fish I seek.
What disturbs me more than Peta people is when I see a total lack of respect for animals and fish, and hear this justified and (I believe misrepresented) by biblical catch phrases. 
Keeping undersize fish, or more fish than one will ever eat, Killing less desirable species like skates or worse defiguring and crippling them and then releasing them to their deaths is a cruelty to us all. 

When I'm with my grandsons on the beach or pier and witness people cutting up fish only to throw them back dead, just because it wasn't the species they targeted, I tell my grandsons it's just ignorance and anger, but I'm can't help thinking to myself it's because they're unmitigated a**h***s.


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## rhino7628 (Sep 3, 2002)

"When I'm with my grandsons on the beach or pier and witness people cutting up fish only to throw them back dead, just because it wasn't the species they targeted, I tell my grandsons it's just ignorance and anger, but I'm can't help thinking to myself it's because they're unmitigated a**h***s." 

Actually, VMRC (Virginia Marine Resources Commission) recommends throwing back dead cut-up fish so that they could be used as food in the ecosystem. Just read the 2001 Virginia Salt Water Fishing Guide to see what I mean.


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## jay b (Dec 1, 2002)

Only one biblical reference made on this thread and it was not misrepresented, man was put on earth as the supreme being and all the lesser animals for his benifit. That doesn't mean you're automatically allowed to abuse anything (there are numerous biblical references about that one also); catch what you can, keep what you can eat, and return the rest to fight another day, do it all within the given regulations, but to he!! with those tree-hunching cry-babbies--I eat meat!!


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## oceanviewace (Mar 11, 2000)

Hey rhino, I know where you coming from. I was not talking about what we use for cut bait, but folks that catch fish only to cut them up and throw them back in the water because they think they look nasty like blowfish or dogfish etc. I did read the 2001 Virginia Salt Water Fishing Guide and didn't see the passage you were referring to. what page?

jay b 
"they were put on earth for the benefit of man, besides we're bigger and higher up the food chain." is not quite the way the bible
refers to us. 
Genesis 1.26-28 .."and let them have 
dominion over the fish of the sea"..., 
The New Testament 1 Peter 4: 7-11, Luke 12:42-46 speaks more to stewartship.
But my Church is of the blue sky. 
Which holds sacred the waters I fish, the forests I hunt and the air I breathe, and if I'm lucky, the sturgeon I hope to catch this weekend.


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## emanuel (Apr 2, 2002)

I keep only what I can use, sometimes I share with those whose luck isn't as good. I try to be as careful as I can with every big fish I release so that it can go spawn many more like itself. I am humane as possible with the fish I do keep. It is all about respect for nature and all creatures of the sea. We may have dominion over the fishes of the sea, but that isn't a free license to abuse that power. My 2 cents.


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## da yooper (Jul 30, 2001)

Man is the only being dumb enough to slit his
own throat. (The animals would gladly rip it
out for you).

God created man the supreme being on the earth.
Man can either deal with is or [try to] refuse
it.


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## HuskyMD (May 19, 2000)

That's not what they are teaching in our schools. Where are you guys getting these ideas about God and Man?
Your children are being taught the earth was created by the big bang and man came from monkees, etc.
Also, the courts are getting rid of "under God" from the Pledge.


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## da yooper (Jul 30, 2001)

My parents made sure we went to church every
Sunday; and yes I was taught about the Big Bang
in Public School. I have just thrown that theory
out on a real simple Principle: THEY FAIL TO 
STATE THEIR PRIORS!

1) If in the beginning, something went 
BANG!
then what was it!? Where did it come 
from?

2) If you read the account in Genesis 
CAREFULLY, it mentions, the stars being
fixed in placed.

I know it sounds stupid, but the second 
statememt has all sorts of ramifications:
If there were a "Big Bang", this would imply
that the stars would be in constant motion.
Could we count on them as navigational aids?

Also, if you look closely at the account in
Gensis there is a metaphysical/spiritual 
sequence:

1) Create the heavens an the earth. You get
a lot of rock and gas -- nothing is 
alive.
2) Create plant-life: It grows; if you cut
it off, it withers and dies, and if you 
leave it long enough, it creates seeds 
and therefore offspring, ergo it fits
the biological definition of a life-form
But it has no intelligence, no will, no
fear or feeling etc.
3) "Let the seas teem with living creatures,
an let birds fly above the earth..."
4) "Let the land produce living creatures
according to their own kinds..."

Notice the attributes of animal: Limited
emotions (your dog knows when you are 
scolding it...) some animals feel pain,
some don't all higher vertebrates have
some form of will, all higher vertebrates
have some form of sight and hearing
(plants dont see/hear)

5) The God said, "Lets us make Man in our
own image, on our likeness, and let them
rule over the fish, ... the birds, ...
and the livestock..."

I short God created Man to be a mirror
image of himself. Man ceased to be so,
when man sinned (by eating of the fruit
of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and
Evil), and to make matter worse man,
referred to as Adam lied about it!

As judgement for this, God demoted
the whole human race from "almost a God"
to "almost an animal". We became like 
the rest of the creations.

I put this together by reading the works
of CS Lewis, and William Law


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## HuskyMD (May 19, 2000)

So then is or was God a human with a tangible body?
To put it into perspective for this board--was god a fisherman? We know some of the apostles were from the account in the bible.


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## emanuel (Apr 2, 2002)

So now we're debating metaphysics and spirituality? So much for the stereotype of fishermen being drunken slobs.  Wow, spring better get here FAST!


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## Ruedy (Oct 10, 2000)

One of Jesus' favorite foods is fish.

If there ain't no fishin in heaven, I think I'll just stay here.


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## chest2head&glassy (Jul 2, 2002)

Amen Yooper. Nice research. Can I borrow some of that incase I do a lesson for Bible study.
I can't find a reference where Jesus is directly catching fish but he was sure one heck of a guide.

John 21:6 He said, "Throw your net on the right side of the boat and you will find some." When they did, they were unable to haul the net in because of the large number of fish.


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## Ruedy (Oct 10, 2000)

I suppose if PETA reads this string they'll be protesting in front of our churches on Sunday mornings about God's inhumanity to the fishes.....MAN! We ALL gotta wet a line!


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## emanuel (Apr 2, 2002)

Come down to Georgia. I've caught more stingrays in the past couple days than I have in my entire life.  Only a slight exaggeration.


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## Ruedy (Oct 10, 2000)

Sounds good to me, Emmanuel. I found the sting ray recipes on the South Carolina board. I'll eat anything once........Well.....almost anything.


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## jay b (Dec 1, 2002)

Poor-mans scallops; it's still got to be better than that tofu stuff, but there should be a punishment for being vegetarian (IMHO).


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