# What does it take to cast 400, 500, 600???



## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

Last year on another board I was asked to comment on what it takes to obtain certain distances and what it woukld take to cast across the Cape Cod Canal. Only two guys that i know of have actually done it, Big Dave and Ron Arra. I thought about rewriting it all from memory because it seems to fit with several of the threads here of late. I did a search and found it, here is a copy and paste of that post. I still stand by these opinions because I've lived them all...lol


My thoughts on distance casting.. hmmm. I'll try to keep it short because I can get lost in this topic.. 

These numbers are based on my experience and the use of "heaver" grade fishing gear with a 5-6 oz areodynamic sinker. BTW my backgound is surffishing the beaches of SE NC and the outer banks. 

400' - The average fisherman with decent skill OR a big strong guy that just hits it can reach 400' with practice or a little training. My first true heaver, a conventional reel and an hour in the field with a couple of experienced casters got me to 430'.

500' - Technique comes into play to reach 500'. Brute strength can get you there too but solid technique really helps. I learned the "Hatteras Cast" to make it to 500'. Topped out at 550' with this technique.

600' - I'll include 600' in with fishing gear because it can be done. Tournament grade gear helps. Solid off the ground technique or a fishing pendulum can get you there. I attended a Breakaway seminar (Big Dave was an instructor) in 2001 to learn the pendulum cast before I broke the 600' barrier. I used to hear story's of the casting legends of the OBX casting 8nbait 600'. In reality it was closer to 400, 450 tops.

700 - Now here is a challenge. You must learn and master a powercast technique to hit 700'. Strong off the ground techinque or a solid pendulum cast are the most common. A quality tournament rod (zziplex, century, breakaway) is a must. Highly tuned and balanced converted tournament reels (abu 5500 & 6500 ct's, ultramag 2 & 3) are also needed to hit numbers in excess of 700'. There are a few guys out there with spining reels that hit over 700'..... well one that I know of, Mark Edwards... 

Most guys with decent technique, power and gear can advance steadily into the 600's. After that gains come in small increments compared to the hours of practice required. To consistantly hit numbers in the 700's takes committment and skill. Throw in a patient wife who doesn't mind you spending hours in the field.... .. lol

Now, about the canal. 760' across the ditch would require a very strong top level caster who is "on" that day. Some days you have it, some days it just isn't there. It would also require good conditions - strong tailwind, low barometric pressure and humidity. Even guys like Dave and Ron can't step up on a day with a crosswind or worse yet a headwind an expect to make it across. Just ain't gonna happen. For someone to step up and throw a lure or plug across... well I would have to see it to believe it. A tape or measureing wheel and a field will humble alot of would be 700'casters.

Oh yea, you don't have to be huge to hit these casts. Just stubborn...lol. I'm 5'11"

Tommy


----------



## AL_N_VB (Apr 3, 2002)

great Post Tommy!....puts alot of things we do on the beach or planks in a true casting perspective....


----------



## redhawknc1 (Nov 5, 2006)

Great post!!! I am just starting to train for distance. Right now I'd be happy to hit 300' consistantly and accurately. Just got a new Abu Blue Yonder 6500CT with ABEC 7 bearings, carbontex drag. new custom handle and knobby mag freshly built by Bill Thomas. Just cast it today. It's very nice. Would love to see myself casting better. I obviously need to learn one cast and get very good at it. Which one would you start with first? For now the longest rod I have is a St. Croix 10'6". I am mainly interested in just being a proficient caster when I make it to the surf for fishing. Plus, it's fun to practice. Better here at home than at the surf.:fishing:


----------



## Samurai (Nov 24, 2005)

I agree that a field and a measuring wheel can be very humbling.I can hold my own at my local fishing hole but was humbled the first time I went to the field.Been trying to get some practice in before our season starts in Mar.-Apr. but the fields have been too soggy.


----------



## terpfan (May 30, 2002)

great post. it's more definative coming from one of the top caster in the world.


----------



## 4nbait (Jan 15, 2007)

Tommy,

I am new to distance casting and this forum. I joined because of great info like this...Thanks for the great post! I am just curious about the low and hight reel placement for distance casting. At what level is the limit of the high reel placement and the need/ advantage of low reel position comes into play? I know the vast majority of casters will never have to worry about this ...


----------



## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

4nbait,

There is no standard or limit to switch to low reel position. Blackbeard pioneered low reel casting back in the 80's. Maybe he'll jump in here with more info. It helps to balance a long rod and frees up the right hand for a harder punch. It is also easier to get a good solid grip on the reel when you're pulling with the left vs punching with the right. That being said, there are still successful casters that use the high reel today, so it really is up to the individual. 

I use low position field casting and high position fishing.

Tommy


----------



## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

redhawknc1 said:


> Great post!!! I am just starting to train for distance. Right now I'd be happy to hit 300' consistantly and accurately. Just got a new Abu Blue Yonder 6500CT with ABEC 7 bearings, carbontex drag. new custom handle and knobby mag freshly built by Bill Thomas. Just cast it today. It's very nice. Would love to see myself casting better. I obviously need to learn one cast and get very good at it. Which one would you start with first? For now the longest rod I have is a St. Croix 10'6". I am mainly interested in just being a proficient caster when I make it to the surf for fishing. Plus, it's fun to practice. Better here at home than at the surf.:fishing:



Good stuff by Tommy there.

redhawk, what is your St.Croix rated for? It would be considered short by most when talking distance casting. You will get more distance out of a 12' rod. Tournament rods will generally be in the 13 to 14' range. I will let Tommy clarify but as he stated general fishing gear (12' heaver) will get some to reach 500 to maybe 600'. TO go much beyond that does require better technique as wll as better equipment.

IMO- the fundamental power cast to work on for beginners is the OTG. Once the OTG is mastered advanced casting (various pendulum styles) can be used to obtain more distance.


----------



## redhawknc1 (Nov 5, 2006)

Surf Cat, it is rated 10-25lb line, 2-6oz, 10'6" Med. Hvy power. Gotta 525Mag on it now. Suffix Seige 14lb. I'm not aiming for tournament casting, just to be able to cast my best when fishing from the surf. Just want to be as good as the equipment allows. And the same with all my surf rigs. I'm a reel ho so I have quite a selection of reels that are capable, just haven't really bought a heaver yet. Trying through this board to figure out what I need there. Reading and learning. Going to the International Custom Rod Building Exposition next week, so I'll see a lot there. Living so far inshore, I don't get to see a huge selection of rods.
As far as the cast, really want to be as good as I can be with a good fishing cast. OTG for this?
Thanks to everyone for all the good posts on the forum. Getting me through the winter!


----------



## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

redhawknc1 said:


> Surf Cat, it is rated 10-25lb line, 2-6oz, 10'6" Med. Hvy power. Gotta 525Mag on it now. Suffix Seige 14lb. I'm not aiming for tournament casting, just to be able to cast my best when fishing from the surf. Just want to be as good as the equipment allows. And the same with all my surf rigs. I'm a reel ho so I have quite a selection of reels that are capable, just haven't really bought a heaver yet. Trying through this board to figure out what I need there. Reading and learning. Going to the International Custom Rod Building Exposition next week, so I'll see a lot there. Living so far inshore, I don't get to see a huge selection of rods.
> As far as the cast, really want to be as good as I can be with a good fishing cast. OTG for this?
> Thanks to everyone for all the good posts on the forum. Getting me through the winter!


That rod sounds like a good plug or metal rod. You can ceratinly learn to cast with it, but it will be like a different world when going to a 12' rod.

I use the OTG for fishing 95 % of the time. For safety it is not the best cast when crowded conditions prevail. The unitech or hatteras cast are safer when the beach is crowded. I would still concentrate on learning the OTG. It will get you big distance when you need it and helps you master all the fundamentals of good casting.


----------



## Vernad Ogonowicz (Sep 18, 2003)

Tommy is going to do some semiars this year. They would be a good place to improve your game.


----------



## seajay (Dec 18, 2005)

Thanks Tommy, From what I read in post here is that alot of Fisherman are trying to reach that 6 to 700' cast.and trying to build the perfect Fishing reel and Rod combo to accomplish these distance.As you stated there are alot of varibles to apply Distance casting to fishing casting. As we all know the fish can be from 10 yards to well over 100 yards from the beach. As with Distance casting and Fishing casting one main ingrediant is accuracy. Maybe we should have a Fishing Distance Casting thread?


----------



## sandcruiser (Jan 15, 2007)

*Do yourself a favor...take a lesson*

Okay, so I felt I could cast with the best of em. But the field and the ocean are 2 different places. Depth perception, true yardage is an unknown. Nobody has a range finder good enough to shoot your drop zone that quick. Ocean numbers are at best trumped up chest beating numbers. The ocean has always made me feel good about my casting. The field jack slapped me without warning and sent me home like a spanked pup. You put a wheel or lazer range finder on it and see what I mean.

I swallowed a lot of personal pride and decided to take a lesson from Tommy Farmer just a couple of weekends ago and let's just say, the man is the real deal and knows what he's talking about. He's a casting machine using a ton of technique and a bunch of coiled up power from God knows where. I've never seen nobody on the Point throw that far period, end of story. The line just keeps singing out while he adjusts and tinkers. There's more than several seconds while the weight is sailin.

I wanted to explore more distance just in case. In just a couple of hours with Tommy, he made me a much better caster and the results are coming with each practice session. I get more practice time cause I'm not blowing up as much. I'm also more accurate. Before I was all over the place hundreds of feet off line. All this is gonna come in handy this Spring and Fall. 

I've hit 400'-449' pretty regularly lately and I thought that was just about all I could expect.
Tommy had me throwing over 500' in no time and I left after hitting a new personal best 520'! I watched, listened, and tried to absorb it all. It's a lot for the body and mind to take in a couple of hours but it has helped me immeasurably.

The OTG cast has allowed me to hit another personal best since I took the lesson from Tommy. With my 525mag and a new 13' HDX from Tommy I hit 569'. I had 14# suffix tied into some existing 17# at the base of the spool. Tommy trained me not to thumb the spool, but I anticipated the landing too soon and probably short circuited a much nicer distance by thumbing the knot! I was warned about this sport....it is highly addictive. You want to add footage the minute you leave a good casting session. First all I wanted was 500 now I want 600.

A personal plug: You bet! It was my dime.

Tommy, my personal thanks to you for an excellent foundation you poured into my mind that day. Your patience, teaching skills, and talent will help a lot more fisherman and long distance guys I'm sure. Check him out guys! He can put you on some bigger numbers in a short stretch of time!


----------



## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

Greg,

Thanks for the kind words. I'm not sure who was more excited when we shot that 520' with the lazer, you or me...lol

It's easy to teach someone that has a genuine interest and desire to learn. We did cover a lot in the lesson, but you seemed to soak it up like a sponge.

Keep up the practice and 600 will fall quickly. Just don't get discouraged when you hit a wall. It happens to everyone that casts.

You can be as good as you want to be. 

Tommy


----------



## booboo (Jan 2, 2007)

*Sandcuiser*

Way to go on the long slingin'. I'm just gonna tie my junk on to yours and let you grip it and rip it!
The few casts I made in the field were eye opening on both the technique and the distance that we were throwing. I'm probably going to have to 'ho up and get me a rig like yours before the fall any way! Sounds like you're gonna be ready for some action in brunswick County in April ! Later...


----------



## sand.trout (Oct 31, 2006)

WOW! one of the best threads I've read on here.
Can we put this in the bible fourm?


----------



## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

OK with me... 

Tommy


----------



## demonfish (Mar 31, 2002)

ok tommy, we know you are a casting god but lets no rewrite the bible, lol


----------



## Kwesi W. (Apr 14, 2006)

This post is still very educational.. So I'm bring it back to life... LOL


----------



## Hooked Up (Feb 6, 2009)

*redhawk*

you should come cast with us.......lotta beginners and a few oldtimers..........we are even planning some for fun tournaments in the near future......iwe will be casting in the hickory area june 20th 1 pm you can reach me at 704 682 9703 ..jeff.......shade is available lol...hell we had one guy hit 360 with brand new equipment.......ide like to see it grow in this area...beautiful private field


----------



## Hooked Up (Feb 6, 2009)

*old threads*

yet another old thread to bite me


----------



## Peixaria (Dec 31, 2008)

Tommy, In the initial description of what it takes to reach the various distances, can you specify what is a fishing pendulum or variations in the 600 ft. category. Do you have a Youtube that shows this, or these casts? Thanx


----------



## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

Hooked Up said:


> yet another old thread to bite me


Blame KMW --



A good thread --- worth a closer look.



> 1.)You must learn and master a powercast technique to hit 700'.
> 
> 2. )A quality tournament rod (zziplex, century, breakaway) is a *must*.
> 
> 3.)Highly tuned and balanced converted tournament reels (abu 5500 & 6500 ct's, ultramag 2 & 3) are also needed to hit numbers in excess of 700'


It's been brought up by some that an out of the box abu, is good for 700+.

I say horse hockey to that. 

An experienced field caster that *already * hits 700 might be able to make a stock reel perform well enough to break 700', but the ordinary person trying to *get to* 700' is severely handicapping themselves to try such an endeavor.

Just my twist on an old story that keeps floating around...


----------



## curtisb (Jul 21, 2004)

Amen Tommy, everything you said is dead on, especially the part about 700' plus casts. It is a very lucky person to go out his first tourney and throw that kinda of distance without as I like to say paying his dues on the field.


----------



## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

Wow, this is a blast from the past thread...lol

600' is a big casting goal for a lot of guys. I know it was for me a few years ago. 

A fishing pendulum is a cast similar to a tournament pendulum but with a shorter drop and less body rotation. The Hatteras cast can get you there but you are really at the extreme end of it's range. In heaver testing over the past couple of years I've hit in the 620's with the Hatteras cast and a 6500 with 15 lb test. 

The groundcast is your best ticket to 600+. 

In the two years since this thread was started i have gained a LOT more respect for the groundcast and what it can do. IMHO the groundcast is the fundamental cast and anyone that is seriously interested in distance should spend the time to learn it. It is time well invested. 

A well executed groundcast will outperform a poor or even a good pendulum cast. 

Tommy


----------



## Kwesi W. (Apr 14, 2006)

Tommy, In my limited experiences it seems like some times people move to a pendulum too fast. What im saying is they jump to swinging the lead before they master the ground cast. I see guys go back to the OTG cast to perfect their pendulum cast.. I think the OTG cast is underated, and can do as well as the Pendulum style cast. I have been told you have to be big and strong to get good distance with the ground cast.... I guess we will see....


----------



## RW_20 (Oct 16, 2007)

*Tommy ?*

Tommy, At the tourney in Charlotte I used the ground cast both days I was there except for the last two cast in which I thew the pendulum and was able to increase my distance and PB by 70'. I realize that the advice from all you there made a huge difference, but what do you feel I need to focus on to obtain the same distance form my ground cast. I guess what I am asking here is how do you obtain the same amount of loading with the ground cast as with your pendulum.
On another note, how far are you from Ocean Isle and will you be free for a little private casting lesson the week of Aug 15-22, we will be down for vacation that week.


----------



## curtisb (Jul 21, 2004)

I like the OTG and the tournament Pendulum but a cast you don't here many people talk about and my favorite cast for tourneys is the X-Cast. The X-Cast was the cast that got me over 700' and has been the cast I have achieved my longest cast with both in tournaments and on the practice field with. This is also the cast Big Danny uses.


----------



## Kwesi W. (Apr 14, 2006)

The xcast is a pretty thing when done correctly... in my opinion Earl Blake does the best xcast I've seen...


----------



## ReelinRod (May 29, 2003)

I've been able to cast 600 for many, many years with my fishing equipment and when I started tournament casting with mono and borrowed rods the shorter numbers were disheartening.

My own equipment brought me back up and more than anything else, shedding the crappy fishing form has stretched the distances out to numbers only dreamed about even 5 years ago. 

Right now my goal is 700ft with either the 175gm or 125gm off the ground with a spinner.


----------



## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

kmw21230 said:


> Tommy, In my limited experiences it seems like some times people move to a pendulum too fast. What im saying is they jump to swinging the lead before they master the ground cast. I see guys go back to the OTG cast to perfect their pendulum cast.. I think the OTG cast is underated, and can do as well as the Pendulum style cast. I have been told you have to be big and strong to get good distance with the ground cast.... I guess we will see....


I not only moved too fast I skipped the groundcast completely during my early casting years. Straight from a hatteras cast to the pendulum. I figured the groundcast was just a waste of time...

Boy was I wrong.

In 06 I really started to practice the GC in preperation for the Primo. It served me and in the past two years I have found it to be on par with a really good pendulum. The best thing though is the improvement you WILL see in the pendulum after a while throwing the groundcast correctly.


Tommy


----------



## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

racewire20 said:


> Tommy, At the tourney in Charlotte I used the ground cast both days I was there except for the last two cast in which I thew the pendulum and was able to increase my distance and PB by 70'. I realize that the advice from all you there made a huge difference, but what do you feel I need to focus on to obtain the same distance form my ground cast. I guess what I am asking here is how do you obtain the same amount of loading with the ground cast as with your pendulum.
> On another note, how far are you from Ocean Isle and will you be free for a little private casting lesson the week of Aug 15-22, we will be down for vacation that week.



The great thing about groundcasting is that it lets you focus on learning to *HIT* the rod without the added distraction of a swinging sinker. You can concentrate on the fundamentals and learn to cast a loooong way. 

You can then apply those "*HIT*" fundamentals to the pendulum if you want. You may find that you enjoy groundcasting so much that you don't swing the sinker again...lol

I'll be in Europe from Aug 4-17 if all goes well. Maybe we can hook up later.

Tommy


----------



## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

Sgt_Slough said:


> I've been able to cast 600 for many, many years with my fishing equipment and when I started tournament casting with mono and borrowed rods the shorter numbers were disheartening.
> 
> My own equipment brought me back up and more than anything else, shedding the crappy fishing form has stretched the distances out to numbers only dreamed about even 5 years ago.
> 
> Right now my goal is 700ft with either the 175gm or 125gm off the ground with a spinner.


You can do it Rod. Mark's record is in danger...

Tommy


----------



## ReelinRod (May 29, 2003)

Tommy said:


> You can do it Rod. Mark's record is in danger...
> 
> Tommy


It was looking good but the march onward and upward is on hold for now, I snapped the Blackbird in Delaware . . .


----------



## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

kmw21230 said:


> Tommy, In my limited experiences it seems like some times people move to a pendulum too fast. What im saying is they jump to swinging the lead before they master the ground cast. I see guys go back to the OTG cast to perfect their pendulum cast.. I think the OTG cast is underated, and can do as well as the Pendulum style cast. I have been told you have to be big and strong to get good distance with the ground cast.... I guess we will see....


I think if you want to improve your ground cast-- you should also swing the lead some. I'm not saying abandon the ground cast-- but swinging the lead allows you to get a much better feel for loading the rod, and can help if your trying to isolate certain aspects of the hit. At least for me -- swinging the lead has improved my groundcast also. Swinging the lead allows the cast to develop as you come into the hit-- it almost seems like it happens in slow motion-- compared to the sudden violence of the ground cast

I was getting no where by just repeatedly hammering a ground cast-- it happens so fast and so quick-- so if you find yourself in a rut-- shake things up with a swing of the lead.


----------



## Hudak (Sep 10, 2007)

Tommy said:


> You may find that you enjoy groundcasting so much that you don't swing the sinker again...lol


I keep telling myself once I hit X number of feet, I will start swinging the lead. Once I hit my goal, I end up setting another goal. Eventually I will start to swing the lead I am sure, until then, I am happy not having to worry about timing. I believe I have fallen into that group that just enjoys groundcasting too much or maybe I am just more lazy than I thought. 

Robert


----------



## Kwesi W. (Apr 14, 2006)

The pendulum is for people who want to look cute.. The ground cast is for the guys that drool, and have more animal in them then human.. !!!! I'll stick to the OTG cast until I break 700ft..  

BTW.. I think at my size I can do well with the ground cast... I'm not tall by no means but 215lbs on a 5'8 frame makes be look more like a Tree Stump.. LOL




Surf Cat said:


> I think if you want to improve your ground cast-- you should also swing the lead some. I'm not saying abandon the ground cast-- but swinging the lead allows you to get a much better feel for loading the rod, and can help if your trying to isolate certain aspects of the hit. At least for me -- swinging the lead has improved my groundcast also. Swinging the lead allows the cast to develop as you come into the hit-- it almost seems like it happens in slow motion-- compared to the sudden violence of the ground cast
> 
> I was getting no where by just repeatedly hammering a ground cast-- it happens so fast and so quick-- so if you find yourself in a rut-- shake things up with a swing of the lead.


----------



## Hudak (Sep 10, 2007)

kmw21230 said:


> The ground cast is for the guys that drool, and have more animal in them then human.. !!!!


If you have ever HEARD Tommy hit a pendulum with violence, he must be one of those manimal hybrids. LOL


----------



## Hudak (Sep 10, 2007)

kmw21230 said:


> The pendulum is for people who want to look cute....I'll stick to the OTG cast until I break 700ft..


When you break 700' and start swinging the lead, don't expect any of us to tell you that you look cute!!!!!!!


----------



## Kwesi W. (Apr 14, 2006)

LOL... I'm sure you won't especially as you watch me walk past you... 




thekingfeeder said:


> When you break 700' and start swinging the lead, don't expect any of us to tell you that you look cute!!!!!!!


----------



## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

kmw21230 said:


> The pendulum is for people who want to look cute..



Uhh, yeah right... 

The pendulum is for people that have the fundamentals down and want to achieve their absolute best distances. A few may shun the groundcast because it's boring --- most realize a basic fact-- it's easier to accelerate a moving lead than a stationary one-- most people will ultimately achieve their best distances swinging the lead-- you don't see any of the absolute best guys (exception of Tommy) groundcasting on a regular basis-- for good reason.


----------



## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

kmw21230 said:


> LOL... I'm sure you won't especially as you watch me walk past you...


You'll have to do a lot better than 700' to be walking past Robert-- check the records.


----------



## Kwesi W. (Apr 14, 2006)

I believe THE BEST said if the condidtions in the UK were suitable he would ground cast.. That speak volumes when it's coming from the champ... In my opinion the OTG cast is capable of the same numbers..


----------



## Kwesi W. (Apr 14, 2006)

I know what robert numbers are.. You just focus on getting past your wall.. Don't forget you called me out in DE..!!! That took some Ballz and I repect that 100%... 

btw.. 610ft isn't going to beat me in October.. LOL




Surf Cat said:


> You'll have to do a lot better than 700' to be walking past Robert-- check the records.


----------



## Hudak (Sep 10, 2007)

kmw21230 said:


> LOL... I'm sure you won't especially as you watch me walk past you...


Crack-offs don't count. (I couldn't resist)

Robert


----------



## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

thekingfeeder said:


> Crack-offs don't count. (I couldn't resist)
> 
> Robert


Don't worry even his crackoffs don't go that far... 

I think the Nationals are going to be a blast....  

Let the smack talk begin..


----------



## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

kmw21230 said:


> I believe THE BEST said if the condidtions in the UK were suitable he would ground cast.. That speak volumes when it's coming from the champ... In my opinion the OTG cast is capable of the same numbers..



I think most can get close to 95% of their best distance with the groundcast-- most want that extra 5 %..


----------



## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

Surf Cat said:


> Uhh, yeah right...
> 
> The pendulum is for people that have the fundamentals down and want to achieve their absolute best distances. A few may shun the groundcast because it's boring --- most realize a basic fact-- it's easier to accelerate a moving lead than a stationary one-- most people will ultimately achieve their best distances swinging the lead-- you don't see any of the absolute best guys (exception of Tommy) groundcasting on a regular basis-- for good reason.


I have to disagree on this one Mark...  I think most shun the groundcast because they look around and everyone else is pendulum casting. Early on I never really gave the groundcast a second thought. I just _assumed_ the pendulum was the way to go, it had to be, everybody was doing it....

Is it easier to accelerate a moving sinker??? In a perfect world with a perfectly timed swing you may be able to achieve a higher terminal speed swinging the sinker. The sinker can get *very heavy* on a full power pendulum, especially if you do not have the patience to wait for proper sinker position. When this happens, the arms tend to collapse and any gain that you've achieved by accelerating a moving sinker just went up in smoke through loss of technique. 

I've thrown them both a lot. Probably too much to be considered sane...lol
I believe that a perfectly timed pendulum cast hit with the same intensity and without loss of form that you can apply to a groundcast will travel farther. I also know that it is very hard to get it right. The groundcast allows you to work on proper arm position, arm extension, acceleration and finally just smacking the snot out of the sinker at the end.

In practice and in tournaments I have hit comparable numbers with both. 

IMHO,

Tommy


----------



## Kwesi W. (Apr 14, 2006)

Mark, sometime I think you're too smart for your own good...  Stick to the OTG cast and worry about looking sexy later... BTW if you want that new SS to get a REAL workout let me hold on to it for two weeks... lol


----------



## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

Tommy said:


> I have to disagree on this one Mark...  I think most shun the groundcast because they look around and everyone else is pendulum casting. Early on I never really gave the groundcast a second thought. I just _assumed_ the pendulum was the way to go, it had to be, everybody was doing it....
> 
> Is it easier to accelerate a moving sinker??? In a perfect world with a perfectly timed swing you may be able to achieve a higher terminal speed swinging the sinker. The sinker can get *very heavy* on a full power pendulum, especially if you do not have the patience to wait for proper sinker position. When this happens, the arms tend to collapse and any gain that you've achieved by accelerating a moving sinker just went up in smoke through loss of technique.
> 
> ...


I'm not disagreeing with anything said here. Obviously it is easier to be more consistent with the groundcast. But on those ocassions when the timing comes together, I think the pendulum will outperform.



> I believe that a perfectly timed pendulum cast hit with the same intensity and without loss of form that you can apply to a groundcast will travel farther.


Bingo--- 

It may be harder to achieve the consistency when swinging the lead-- but no one said it was easy.... 

I think it would be impossible to make a black and white statement that one method is superior to the other-- for everyone. 



> I believe THE BEST said if the condidtions in the UK were suitable he would ground cast.. That speak volumes when it's coming from the champ... In my opinion the OTG cast is capable of the same numbers..


I can only assume by "conditions" he's talking about nicely mown grass. 

I tend to agree with Earl's statements about the groundcast-- it performs nicely when you can drag the sinker on sand to load the rod up a tad. I find it rather unnerving when the sinker grabs - then jumps, thru tufts of grass.


----------



## bdriversteve (Apr 28, 2008)

*Yes sir*

I basically agree with all that was said but ultimately I feel that whatever style you get your best distance with and you feel comfortable with go with it. I have been casting 9 months or so, basically I feel that I'm in transition with my style , yeah I got over 700 in my second tourny with the otg but I think that if I switch to a airealized cast with a ton more of practice I can go with the best of em...P.S. the nationals are going to be fun with all this trash talkin..LOL


----------



## danville (Feb 21, 2004)

If crap could cast, you would cast over 900'
after it's said and done,there is more said then done. 
lots of practice. when you are tired, and can not cast no more, you are just half way
through your practice, so work harder,cast longer, thats how you get 700'

The nationals are going to tell the tell.


----------



## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

danville said:


> If crap could cast, you would cast over 900'
> after it's said and done,there is more said then done.
> lots of practice. when you are tired, and can not cast no more, you are just half way
> through your practice, so work harder,cast longer, thats how you get 700'
> ...


Nice to see you on board Willie,


And well said, well said indeed.

BTW- do you pendulum cast to look cute ?  If so, it ain't working !


----------



## Torpedo (Oct 2, 2007)

What took me over 600'?

Lets see, after casting for 7 years starting jut over 500' and being in the 590's for 3 years with well tuned reels, offset mag using a Breakaway 2pc/1pc then a Breakaway AAA I wasn't getting anywhere. The San Antonio crew started practicing and video taping. I went to a couple of practices and got some excellent instruction from Dalyn Vick. Results were very good. I reviewed the videos and noted three things. First many of the guys were using center mag reels. Second, many of them were using OTG. Finally, the longer casters were using low reel position. I, like many never did OTG. I went to OTG for a couple of training sessions. I forced myself to low reel which I had been struggling with for years but was determined to get it done this time and I did. Then, I ordered some center mags, installed them and used them. By the time I was done I was hitting near 640 in practice and got some goood casts in on a tournament consistently over 600' other increases came with fine tuning the reel, oil and a little fine tuning on the magnets. All these came into play adding a few feet here and a few feet there. However, the best improvement came with the instruction from Dalyn and going back to basics with the OTG.


----------



## kingfisherman23 (Dec 14, 2003)

OK, time to throw another opinion into the fray 

I also think that your longest-throwing cast depends on the rod you're throwing. I've only just started into this world but I've talked with many big hitters and it seems to me that there are two rod actions out there. You have a stiffer-tipped rod that bends into a true parabolic action (a C-bend if you will) and then a softer-tipped rod that trasitions into more of a J-bend. Some rods more suited to groundcasting based on the static start and progressive load on a stiff tip, while other rods will perform better using a dynamic-loading pendulum.

Evan


----------



## Kwesi W. (Apr 14, 2006)

That's all very true, but I still think a 700ft caster is a 700ft caster.... Wind or no wind.. Zziplexx or Century... Sometimes I think when you talk about distance we talk about our best cast instead of our average.. Basically if your average is 700ft then you can cas that with a C-bend or J bend..


----------



## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

kingfisherman23 said:


> OK, time to throw another opinion into the fray
> 
> I also think that your longest-throwing cast depends on the rod you're throwing. I've only just started into this world but I've talked with many big hitters and it seems to me that there are two rod actions out there. You have a stiffer-tipped rod that bends into a true parabolic action (a C-bend if you will) and then a softer-tipped rod that trasitions into more of a J-bend. Some rods more suited to groundcasting based on the static start and progressive load on a stiff tip, while other rods will perform better using a dynamic-loading pendulum.
> 
> Evan


That's pretty much true-- if you are going to groundcast, you might as well find a rod that is known to be a good rod for that style. Some rods can certainly do double duty-- but are generally better for one style or the other.

It pays to know what style you want to work on-- then get the best rod for that style-- that also suits your abilities.


----------



## Tacpayne (Dec 20, 2008)

Surf Cat said:


> It pays to know what style you want to work on-- then get the best rod for that style-- that also suits your abilities.


I think another thing is being able to cast with people that can give your GOOD advise. I can tell you that in the tourney I cast in, the help that I recieved was worth ten times the fee I paid to cast. I think this may be why so many people are able to hit the bigger #'s now, excellent advise from great caster.


----------



## reelbiglou (Mar 3, 2008)

*cast*

I believe Danny holds both OTG (845ft) and Pendelum (930ft plus) world records. That should speak volumns.
Near 100ft difference. form same man. Which do you think is the ultimate??


----------



## kingfisherman23 (Dec 14, 2003)

Danny has also stated that you cannot achieve maximum performance from a moving lead.

You get max distance throwing what you know. I cannot throw a pendulum nearly as far as I can an OTG. But I don't know how to throw a pendulum. I'd like to see Troy or Earl throw a groundcast and see how the distance measured up to their usual numbers. I threw with Tommy in Linden, and his best pendulum outthrew his best OTG. But his record was from a groundcast.

JMHO

Evan


----------



## curtisb (Jul 21, 2004)

kingfisherman23 said:


> OK, time to throw another opinion into the fray
> 
> I also think that your longest-throwing cast depends on the rod you're throwing. I've only just started into this world but I've talked with many big hitters and it seems to me that there are two rod actions out there. You have a stiffer-tipped rod that bends into a true parabolic action (a C-bend if you will) and then a softer-tipped rod that trasitions into more of a J-bend. Some rods more suited to groundcasting based on the static start and progressive load on a stiff tip, while other rods will perform better using a dynamic-loading pendulum.
> 
> Evan


Well your close. The C bend rods bend more into the butt than a J bend rod, plus a J bend is actually stiffer from about two feet down to the end of the rod than a C bend. Now the newer C bends do have faster tips then the older rods that used this same action.


----------



## curtisb (Jul 21, 2004)

kmw21230 said:


> That's all very true, but I still think a 700ft caster is a 700ft caster.... Wind or no wind.. Zziplexx or Century... Sometimes I think when you talk about distance we talk about our best cast instead of our average.. Basically if your average is 700ft then you can cas that with a C-bend or J bend..


Kinda true KM, Carlos(Dig on Me) hit alot of his big numbers using a Breakaway HDX/TB(he now has a Century WR300). Also the right rod to some people can make a big difference in those extra few feet. When I first started casting, I used a Breakaway 2pc/1pc with the standard fishing butt. I finally went over 600' when I got my Zziplex Dymic HST. I got a Century WR300, but at first could'nt throw over 600' with it. After working with it, it is now my main rod and the rod I have hit my biggest numbers with.


----------



## ironman (Aug 4, 2008)

curtisb said:


> Kinda true KM, Carlos(Dig on Me) hit alot of his big numbers using a Breakaway HDX/TB(he now has a Century WR300). ....


Actually, Carlos is casting with a TTR...He loaded it pretty good on Saturday. Had he not cracked off on his last cast, he may have posted his first *>800 *foot cast!!!


----------



## curtisb (Jul 21, 2004)

ironman said:


> Actually, Carlos is casting with a TTR...He loaded it pretty good on Saturday. Had he not cracked off on his last cast, he may have posted his first *>800 *foot cast!!!


Ok, I thought he got the WR300.


----------



## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

kingfisherman23 said:


> Danny has also stated that you cannot achieve maximum performance from a moving lead.
> 
> You get max distance throwing what you know. I cannot throw a pendulum nearly as far as I can an OTG. But I don't know how to throw a pendulum. I'd like to see Troy or Earl throw a groundcast and see how the distance measured up to their usual numbers. I threw with Tommy in Linden, and his best pendulum outthrew his best OTG. But his record was from a groundcast.
> 
> ...


If I'm not mistaken, that record of Tommy's was a record for a groundcast--not for a pendulum-- might need clarification from Tommy. 




> I believe Danny holds both OTG (845ft) and Pendelum (930ft plus) world records. That should speak volumns.



It does indeed.


----------



## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

From the sportcast website-- keep in mind this data hasn't been updated in awhile.




> Distance Records and Achievements
> Records
> Mens
> Conventional
> ...


Sometimes a new record gets announced, it might be a new record for an OTG, but not necessarily a new (all cast types) record. I believe Robert currently holds the new OTG record for the 125, but that does not exceed Tommy's pendulum record with the 125 from 2005.


----------



## curtisb (Jul 21, 2004)

Yeah, they are very slow on the record board. They still list my 703.1' from years ago which I past several times in the last two years. They still haven't listed my 738.8' from two years ago and I have submitted it with proof twice.


----------



## Hudak (Sep 10, 2007)

Surf Cat said:


> I believe Robert currently holds the new OTG record for the 125, but that does not exceed Tommy's pendulum record with the 125 from 2005.


Ya, I do have the 125gr OTG record, and sadly no it doesn't surpass the overall 125gr cast.  Only 87.25' plus 1" to go!! (according to that info)

After the DE tourney, many many casters have told me they are after it. I used to carry that record in my back pocket, I might have to leave it at the house, too many people are telling me they want to take it from me. I don't feel safe walking up and down the court any more! 

Robert


----------



## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

Ok,

I looked back through the SCUSA archives. These are the current *overall* U.S. records per weight class. For now I hold them.

100 gram - 781.0' OTG April 2008 Marlton NJ
125 gram - 839.25 Flat Arc Pendulum April 2005 Burgaw NC
150 gram - 831.0' OTG April 09 Marlton NJ
175 gram 0 797.0 High Swing Pendulum April 2007 Shallotte NC

Looking for a common theme I'd say it is April...lol

Tommy


----------



## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

Tommy said:


> Ok,
> 
> I looked back through the SCUSA archives. These are the current *overall* U.S. records per weight class. For now I hold them.
> 
> ...


That's a nice mix between OTG and pendulum casts. I think the one that surpises me the most would be the 100 gr with an OTG cast. Then again maybe not-- that's pretty impressive on the 175 with the high swing pendulum-- which I know you played around with some, but not to the degree of the other casts.

April-- yep, early Spring conditions- usually lots of wind and low temps/humidity. The wind helps the lead and the low temps/humidity helps (perhaps a little with air time) but perhaps more importantly-- doesn't wear near as much on the body as casting in high temps/humidity.

Gotta hand it them boys from Texas-- out casting in 100+ degrees this past weekend-- not sure I could of survived that.


----------



## curtisb (Jul 21, 2004)

I wasn't casting with them in Kingsville, but I was out on the field at home practicing in the same heat. You throw a few cast then go inside cool off then go back out and throw a few more and so on. Not that lucky at the tourney thou(unless you jump in your truck and fire up the a/c for a few minutes).


----------



## curtisb (Jul 21, 2004)

Nice, it is suppose to be 103 degrees here Thursday on my day off(guess I wont be practicing that day). I think I will stay in the a/c and build that blank I got from Surf.


----------



## Dig-on-me (Nov 23, 2007)

ironman said:


> Actually, Carlos is casting with a TTR...He loaded it pretty good on Saturday. Had he not cracked off on his last cast, he may have posted his first *>800 *foot cast!!!





curtisb said:


> Ok, I thought he got the WR300.


When I first started casting or practicing for my first tourney it was January 2008. I was using an HDX T/B rod 14' and was able to hit 755.9 feet by the second tournament in June 2008. I originally placed an order for a Century WR300 but eventually changed it to the Century TTR rod but did not receive it in time for the last tourney in September 2008. Furthest cast with the HDX T/B was 765.1 feet. I started practicing with the TTR and it pushed me WAY back, I was only able to hit around 650 feet with in practice. It took me almost a solid 3 months of practicing with this rod to get back where I was with the HDX rod. Even went back to OTG to get the basics back down again and was able to hit around 700 foot with it. Lots of practice and I think I am finally learning the rod. 

Jack you are right, that last cast was going to be one helluva cast. Everyone was telling me after I cast "Man, I have never seen you load that rod that way!" The reel spun so fast that it fluffed pretty quick then towed off and then fluffed again with a final "kapow" and break off. I never even got to touch the mags at all! 

Carlos


----------



## ironman (Aug 4, 2008)

Dig...I can still see that loaded up TTR and 'the hit' in my mind's eye. It was the most powerful cast I ever saw from you! Had you tightened the mags down just a wee bit, your head would be 100X larger today...we'd have you get you a bucket for a hat!
Great casting, my friend.


----------



## curtisb (Jul 21, 2004)

Carlos, the TT-R set you back because the difference in action types. The HDX/TB is a moderate action like all Nick's rods and the tip you were using was a fishing style tip(easy to bend). The TT-R is a full tournament rod and a J-bend fast action. It took you a little bit to get use to it but now it is working good for you. You should see better distance with that TT-R the more you use it. The HDX/GT I got from Nick has a stiffer faster tip than the original HDX tip has and should be right on the money compared to my WR300.


----------

