# Training for casting!!! What are your thoughts?



## Earl-DC (Jan 19, 2001)

It’s good to see casters discussing some sort of body training and conditioning. In the past this was a well kept secret or so it seemed. 
Here are my thoughts on the subject. 

There is no substitute for *SPEED and POWER.*
*Good technique* will get you up around 725’ – 750’, but you would need to add SPEED and POWER to get up around the 800’ - 850' mark. 

The GOOD news is that; the human body was made to regenerate itself, therefore, *You can get stronger and faster at any age*.
You can start by strengthening *YOUR CORE*, while working on your *balance* and *conditioning*, then add weights to your training routine. A *strong CORE* will provide the base for good form and technique when you start liftng heavy weights.

What are your thoughts on training for casting?


GOD BLESS!! 
Earl-DC


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## Kwesi W. (Apr 14, 2006)

Earl, I would say having a strong core will give you the advantage in most if not all physical activites. I guess my issue would be if you had two men same age same strength what would set them about would be there form.. So you can work on your core, but all of our bodies have limitations, and I'm starting to think if you put the time in becoming more fluid in motion and making every movement as efficient as possible you can truly reep the reward from getting stronger.

Being 5'8 and 220 (stocky build) I think i have enough strength to become a good caster, but the fluidness will get me the big numbers... I HOPE!!!


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## Charkbait (Oct 15, 2007)

There is a big difference between being stocky and being powerful, Tommy is powerful, you can see it in his casting. It is the timing of that power that makes him and many others exceptional casters. Once you become fluid to the point where you can hit the cast with all your power then you start seeing bigger numbers through training at least in my experience.

I don't toss less then 8's ever and most times have 10's-12's or 8 and a mock bait. As I said in the other thread this is where power and form meet.

You need to train total body for casting. The staples will serve you well if you do them with free weights. Squats, Deadlifts, Pullups, Overhead pressing, and bench if you want to look pretty will develop the necessary power you would need. Make no mistake, you only need these 5 because they are some of the hardest movements and create the most stress on the human body. From that stress you recover and gain strength. It is not uncommon for an untrained person to put 100lbs on their squat in the first 6 weeks of training. Imagine what 100lbs of power in your legs could do for your base and your cast. As for the core discussion it is overrated, improving significantly in the above lifts will increas your core strength more then a million situps and twists ever could.

There is a point of diminishing returns. About a year ago I was benching over 400, squatting close to 500 and deadlifting 550 or so. The holy grail for guys my size using no powerlifting equipment like belts and shirts etc is to be in the 400, 500, 600 club and I couldn't quite make it. I'm significantly lower (10% less) in those numbers this year due to some time off but my casting isn't noticeably different.

I think most of you would have an awakening if you spent a day in the gym with some of the top casters. Developing fast twitch muscles will give you explosive power and that's what most of those guys have. It may look controlled and smooth but I bet a electro analysis would paint a differnt pic of what their bodies are doing.

Violence starts in your toes...


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## Tracker16 (Feb 16, 2009)

Charkbait, I think you put way too much importance on your power. If you get a smooth, clean cast you don't need to be a superman. You just need to understand the physics of the cast, perform it cleanly and you will get distance. We are only talking about a few oz of weight here. I do agree a quick twitch at just the right moment will make a big difference but if you need to squat 500lbs to make it happen it's your form that needs improvement


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## Kwesi W. (Apr 14, 2006)

I also agree with Tracker16. I think you can become a good caster with one and not the other, but to become a great caster you need a blend of both.. Tommy is the Man, and I understand why people use him as an example. However there are guys half his size putting up numbers close to his. So it's not all about power, and that's a fact. I remember having a conversion with TF in Berryville last year and asked him about have power vs form. He said the smaller guys have to have better than good form to get the numbers the stronger guys get. My understanding of that was get in where you fit in. I hope we have a DC event this year.. If so I would ask that all come out and watch.. You will see all types (power, and form) and it's actually pretty humbling 
(in a good way).. Foot placement, rotation, timing, push&pull is all a part of form.. I also believe if you practice your form you will build up your core without powerlifting.


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## Kwesi W. (Apr 14, 2006)

I also think a Distance Caster and a Surf Angler are like Apples and Oranges.. In my opinion it's easier to load a rod with 8nbait than a 125g sinker.


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## Tracker16 (Feb 16, 2009)

8 oz and bait is more than twice the weight of 125gr. If you match that to a 12 ft rod and can't make it really zing maybe some good instruction is in order. I hope there is a casting contest around my area soon so I can get some tips on improving my cast as I don't use more than 4 oz on my 10 footer.


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## Charkbait (Oct 15, 2007)

whoa whoa whoa, never said you needed to be a hulk and actually said you don't need to squat 500, at a certain point for casting you'll get nothing out of it.

I'll however say that you would be hard pressed to find anyone who wouldn't benefit from the strength routine above. Not in lieu of casting practice but in addition to.

If you think it doesn't matter its a cop out as well. I'll bet you'd find those slight build folks are actually very powerful.

It's all relative as well, yes you can "built up" your core without powerlifting or training but you'd make much quicker progress and generate more speed and power through training. If you do it casting you'll actually create many compensation issues in your body due the single direction nature of what you are doing.

Agreed on the difference in distance casters and surf heavermen...never caught a fish on grass so don't care much to toss 5oz. Also as you said, easier to load a rod with an 8 but much harder to generate the speed necessary to deliver the increased payload without a sound base and sufficient power.


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## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

This a very interesting thread to me. 

Having good power is an advantage in distance casting. The reason Danny Moskops is the best caster on the planet is a combination of strength, freakish speed for a guy his size and most important of all is the dedication to develop a casting style that works for his body type.

I was blessed with natural strength and pretty decent speed. Those attributes allow me to hit the rod pretty hard but I found out early on that without technique refinement I was pretty much stuck as a sub 600’ caster. It took years of technique refinement and work but I clawed my way to the National Title in 04 at the age of 44. A couple of good years followed. 

A funny thing started happening in 07. Slowly my distances started to drop and by midyear I had lost 50’. It was a hard thing to accept but father time was catching up and my natural strength was declining. I made a commitment, started a training program in the fall of 07 and by the spring of 08 my numbers were back, actually breaking the long standing 150 gram record.

It works.

My program??

Core is a must (REAL hard on a fat guy..lol), Chest, back, shouders, triceps and biceps. Some legs but nothing real heavy. I do have a little secret cast specific workout tool that big brother and I developed, which I use at least once a week. 

Absolutely nothing takes the place of technique. The strongest guy in the gym will get out cast by a small guy on the field if the big guy has no technique. I’ve seen small guys, especially in the UK that just crush it. Look up Steve Morris or Andy Green.

My roots are in 8nbait. I’ve always looked at that as an advantage in tournament casting. Do the same principles apply. You bet. A little less rotation and a little shorter (not necessarily stiffer) rod but the same fundamentals apply.

It’s late and I’m rambling a bit here, but this is a very interesting thread.

Tommy


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## Entropy (Mar 9, 2008)

Charkbait said:


> It's all relative as well, yes you can "built up" your core without powerlifting or training but you'd make much quicker progress and generate more speed and power through training. If you do it casting you'll actually create many compensation issues in your body due the single direction nature of what you are doing.


very valid point. this is a purely hypothetical statement, but if you were to focus purely on your core, building core strength through casting alone would reak havok on your body. numerous back and spinal ailments would arise. to get the results one could acheive by a simple 2 day a week workout, you would have to spend ungodly amounts of time casting (dont we all wish we could. ). obviously gym work isnt going to make you cast 900' but (assuming its done correctly) all it can really do is help you maintain/improve.



Tommy said:


> Absolutely nothing takes the place of technique. The strongest guy in the gym will get out cast by a small guy on the field if the big guy has no technique. I’ve seen small guys, especially in the UK that just crush it. Look up Steve Morris or Andy Green.


and this is what it all essentially boils down to.


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## Kwesi W. (Apr 14, 2006)

a buddy of mine was reading the thread and sent me his opinion... Here it goes.. 

Personally i believe the ability to cast long distances may be may be as much about fear and belief rather than physical attributes,

Fear:-

I knew for years what was holding me back, the fear of breaking a $500 rod, the reels have never mattered to me, i can fix them, but the rods are a big blow if they break.

Belief:-

having the confidence to give it all every cast is a big plus, knowing your reel is tuned to your personal taste and that it will not let you down unless you fuck up is a big bonus.



Physical Attributes:-
A rugby coach once said to me "why are you working out in the gym when you cannot pass properly" get the basics right first then try to make yourself bigger and better, unless a weight program is specific in which muscles you are building it can be a disadvantage, watch a body builder carry two heavy bag of shopping and he will look unwieldy and tight in his movement, most cannot get their hands down by their sides because of over developed muscles in the wrong place for the job.

If you want to build yourself up to have a combination of power and speed the two finest things you can do are swim daily and work out on a rowing machine, the swimming gives you the suppleness (its the only thing you can do (apart from when you sneeze) that uses every muscle in your body) needed for the cast and the rowing machine will give you the explosive power, pumping 500 lbs is no good, thats for the guys in contact sports, i've never been tackled or hit while casting yet.


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## LarryB (Apr 29, 2002)

Excellent comments guys and one thing that I would add in favor of good core conditioning is the need for endurance. While being away from casting and any type of work outs I found that I just didn't have the endurance to do very much at all. When I went to the next distance casting tournament I didn't think about the number of times that I would have to walk out carrying my rod to recover the sinker. By the third rotation I was exhausted. You don't have to guess what affect that had on my speed, power and technique the rest of the day. 

I would strongly recommend that anyone planning an activity that requires repetition like distance casting, lure fishing or the likes do themselves a favor and begin to exercise those muscle well in advance of that activity. If not then your best cast had better be your first or second. 

I still maintain a chair in the shad with a good view of the field but hope that I will not need it, so it may be available.

All the best,
LarryB


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## Charkbait (Oct 15, 2007)

you guys act like you can just pick up a weight and get hyooge...it aint like that for most. Body Building references are irrelevant, they are the extreme of the extreme and take total dedication, goobs of drugs in the illustrations above, 7,000-10,000 calories a day and programs that put them in the gym 12-20 hours a week. 

We all know this is unrealistic. An average guy lifting heavy 2 days a week for an hour and a half with a solid program can see great improvement in his distance. This conversation centered around POWER not bulk...big difference. You can have power without bulk to a degree but in most cases power eventually results in some size, but size for an average guy we're talking adding 10lbs of muscle per year which is actually very good. Our bodies want balance and are very reluctant to build uncessary muscle and/or keep it on. It is metabolically expensive to maintain and is the first to go when we are "untrained" you need to give your body a reason to keep it or build it and heavy lifting is the hardest but most efficient way to do that. After the first 2 months you won't build muscle without proper nutrition, your body will refuse to do it...but your will continue to develop power as your nervous system becomes more efficient and accustomed to firing

You may not want bulk but being more powerful is almost never a bad thing. Think Tiger Woods, incredibly powerful but compared to others of similar power he has a slightish build, you can see his muscles because he's lean but that's really the only reason.


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## Kwesi W. (Apr 14, 2006)

LarryB it's good to hear from you. You are an example of a blend of both form and power. You told me to work on making everything second nature, and worry about the power later.. I've been working on that, and now I need to introduce the Animal to the cast.. LOL


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## Entropy (Mar 9, 2008)

kmw21230 said:


> If you want to build yourself up to have a combination of power and speed the two finest things you can do are swim daily and work out on a rowing machine, the swimming gives you the suppleness (its the only thing you can do (apart from when you sneeze) that uses every muscle in your body) needed for the cast and the rowing machine will give you the explosive power, pumping 500 lbs is no good, thats for the guys in contact sports, i've never been tackled or hit while casting yet.


i have to... ehhh... not disagree but... maybe discredit some of this statement?

swimming is undoubtedly a full body workout (no contest there), but its not the only way to get one. name me any muscle on the body associated with movement (not involuntary bodily function) and i can tell ya how to work it at LEAST as a synergist. it boils down to WHAT your training for and that will determine how you train. 

bleh... this is kind of a pissing contest though. there is no standard of excellence when it comes to the sport of distance casting as far as physical attributes go compared to other profesional athletes. but that might be what makes it so fun ya know? a burly 6'2" 250lber can potentially be out cast by a scrawny 5'6" guy whos 150lbs when wet. everyones body is different... and its just impossible to say until you step on the feild.

a bit random:
- seizures engage every muscle in your body to the highest extent, even more than sneezing. but i dont wish that upon anyone obviously.
- youve never played tackle casting? your missing out... 



> We all know this is unrealistic. An average guy lifting heavy 2 days a week for an hour and a half with a solid program can see great improvement in his distance. This conversation centered around POWER not bulk...big difference. You can have power without bulk to a degree but in most cases power eventually results in some size, but size for an average guy we're talking adding 10lbs of muscle per year which is actually very good. Our bodies want balance and are very reluctant to build uncessary muscle and/or keep it on. It is metabolically expensive to maintain and is the first to go when we are "untrained" you need to give your body a reason to keep it or build it and heavy lifting is the hardest but most efficient way to do that. After the first 2 months you won't build muscle without proper nutrition, your body will refuse to do it...but your will continue to develop power as your nervous system becomes more efficient and accustomed to firing


QFT

power, doesnt mean bulk. (for example; micheal phelps)
bulk doesnt mean restricted movement. (example; mark messier)


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

interesting thread.

Good points made by all. It used to be thought that being "muscle bound" would hamper flexibility and hurt individuals in certain sports, like basketball or golf, and many coaches discouraged heavy weight lifting.


One can not work without the other, any thought that you can be your best and achieve personal best distances while concentrating solely on power or solely on technique isn't going to get you the results in the shortest time frame possible.

More golf injuries occur, simply because players hate the gym routine- and think they can "Play" their way into shape. Hitting thousand of golf balls--- or toossing cast after cast- will simply stress the body thru over utilization of certain muscles and movements-- getting in shape is the name of the game.

Likewise being super strong will do you no good without technique-- you can indeed become "muscle bound". Stretching for flexibility is as important as strength training- be it golf, casting, what have you.

Stretch after strength training to avoid tight muscles and to maintain flexibility.

So time is limited and you onlty have an hour to dedicate to training (what to do?) cast or work out ? Both !! Super long casting sessions are no good-- you lose focus and concentration and soon find yourself just going thru the motions-- NOT GOOD !!

Get your exercise where you can- take the stairs- not the elevator- to build leg muscles, -- park a little farther away when shopping, etc. You can incorporate simple routines into your daily habits that will have you "excersing" without even thinking about it, it isn't entirely necessary to spend time at the gym every day, but if you can make it 2-3 days a week, you'll find out just how much easier it is to load that rod up - don't neglect casting sessions- a little extra power combined with good technique will have you casting further, while actually expending less energy in the process.

Now excuse me while I step out for a cig and a beer 


Last thought- as Larry pointed out-- cardio is important for endurance- maybe not that important on the first or second cast of the day- but whether fishng tournament or casting tournament- lack of endurance causes your ability to focus to go down rapidly- you not only start to get fatigued-- mentally and physically your timing and speed go out the window pretty quickly when you tire easily.


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## Kwesi W. (Apr 14, 2006)

You're entitled to your opinion my friend.. It's wasn't my statement it was a friends comments.. Either way it's cool


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## Charkbait (Oct 15, 2007)

kmw21230 said:


> If you want to build yourself up to have a combination of power and speed the two finest things you can do are swim daily and work out on a rowing machine, the swimming gives you the suppleness (its the only thing you can do (apart from when you sneeze) that uses every muscle in your body) needed for the cast and the rowing machine will give you the explosive power, pumping 500 lbs is no good, thats for the guys in contact sports, i've never been tackled or hit while casting yet.


Read up a bit on how your central nervous system (CNS) fires during explosive activities. Rowing will condition those muscles but not make them more powerful in explosive activities of which a distance cast falls into.

Think of it this way:

You may only need to generate enough power to move a loaded rod (say 50lbs) to cast. However the more power you generate the faster you'll be able to move that load when the timing is correct. To the extent you can move a higher load during that motion your CNS will become more efficient at firing and therefore be able to generate more power and speed when you move down to that 50# load.

We should stop confusing training for bulk and training for power. Most big fat powerlifters these days train for speed as well, say a day of benching or lifting 200# as FAST and explosive as you can. This will develop power via speed and CNS efficiency.

When you train for power you are really conditioning your central nervous system to operate at a higher level bigger muscles are sometimes a result of that training if the conditions warrant themselves. Your body has a reserve of strength that many will never tap into unless trained up over time or in a life threatening situation. Mothers lifting cars to save kids etc. It happens every year. Your CNS is smart in that it will not put you into danger unecessarily. The average man has enough power to break his own bones through contration of his muscles, however your brain and CNS would never let that happen, it is training your CNS that allows you to tap into that reserve.

One more interesting tidbit on how the CNS drives everything. For years and years no one could break the 800# (not sure but this feels right)mark in the bench press, I'm talking guys stacked around 790-799 but no one could do it. Finally someone cracked 800, in the next year 15 guys had done it. It was an invisible wall their mind couldnt' get past but once they saw it done it was smoked. That had nothing to do with casting, just an example of how conditioning your CNS drives ability.


Bruce Lee comes to mind...


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## Charkbait (Oct 15, 2007)

surf cat makes a good point as well, when i'm short on gym time I'll jog to my sinkers and back.

sorry to pile on kmw, didn't realize someone was popping off while I was writing that. We both stated the same, albeit in differnet ways.


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## Kwesi W. (Apr 14, 2006)

No problem! LOL Like I said before i was just positng a friends comments.. At the end of the day most of us probably dont have advanced degrees in kinesiology, and only know what works for us. So I say do what works for you , and share your experiences. That we we can filter the advice you get and only keep what works for you.. Another gem (advice) i got from LarryB.. 




Charkbait said:


> surf cat makes a good point as well, when i'm short on gym time I'll jog to my sinkers and back.
> 
> sorry to pile on kmw, didn't realize someone was popping off while I was writing that. We both stated the same, albeit in differnet ways.


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## Charkbait (Oct 15, 2007)

just like a car, power without control is useless...control without power is boring.


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

Charkbait said:


> just like a car, power without control is useless...control without power is boring.


excellent analogy !!


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## Charkbait (Oct 15, 2007)

Also true that to the extent we can increase control (form) we can increase power applied.

It is true for me that when I'm at my best I can hit the rod with everything I've got, if I were to head out today after a couple months off I'd be working on form all day and barely hitting the rod. If I didn't I'd be picking out mono all day...over time in the spring the violence applied increases but in my case power should never be the limiting factor it would be control.


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## jammu922 (Jan 28, 2009)

just want to say hello and thanks for the great info on the site took a lesson with Ryan at hattaras about a month ago been getting a good hour in every day very addicting Iam also computer illiterate i'll figure how to start new post. but while im here 1/2 hour a day in gym lower body one day upper next 4 days week really keeps ya in overall good shape also allows for a beer or two without getting the pregnant pencil look


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## LarryB (Apr 29, 2002)

Earl,

Thanks for kicking off this discussion. Great topic and exchanges.

LarryB


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## basstardo (Jun 5, 2006)

Charkbait said:


> Bruce Lee comes to mind...


He ain't got nothing on this guy...










I think you're analogy is dead on. Just being able to muscle a rod doesn't mean you're going to cast farther. You have to be able to control it and use proper technique.


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## Earl-DC (Jan 19, 2001)

*Do it All*

My advice: try not to make the same mistake I made. 

For 6 long years I concentrated sole on *Form and technique*, hours and hours of casting, watching videos, reading material, studying rods and their effect on different casting styles, you name it I did it, been there done that, my belief was that good form and technique alone will get me BIG distances (800+) *I was wrong*.

*Results*: good form and technique with limited upper body strength (Nice cast, but lacking real power). My biggest regret is that *I ignored strength training, and conditioning (cardio)*.

Two months ago I embarked on a strength training and cardio program, with amazing results, almost scary, its working; I should have done this 6 years ago, but *its never too late to try* (for the older casters).

*My point is*; if your goal is to be a top caster (800+), *START NOW* and *do it all*. Work on your Form, technique, speed, balance, conditioning (cardio), and *strength*.

*THERE IS NO SUBTITUTE FOR SPEED AND POWER*. 

Charkbait: 
Right on! You posted great advice and information on strength training (power not bulk). 

GOD BLESS!
Earl-dc aka Trini-Cast


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## Entropy (Mar 9, 2008)

kmw21230 said:


> You're entitled to your opinion my friend.. It's wasn't my statement it was a friends comments.. Either way it's cool


oh dont get me wrong, no ill intent meant at all bro (to either of you). thats what the forums are for, discussion. 



Charkbait said:


> You may only need to generate enough power to move a loaded rod (say 50lbs) to cast. However the more power you generate the faster you'll be able to move that load when the timing is correct. To the extent you can move a higher load during that motion your CNS will become more efficient at firing and therefore be able to generate more power and speed when you move down to that 50# load.
> 
> We should stop confusing training for bulk and training for power. Most big fat powerlifters these days train for speed as well, say a day of benching or lifting 200# as FAST and explosive as you can. This will develop power via speed and CNS efficiency.


right on, what your describing is essentially an anaerobic excersize versus an aerobic one. casting deffinantly falls into the anaerobic category. this is where i beleive strength training would offer more for casting than toning assuming you would want to go that far to improve your cast. cardio will help for sure (it cant hurt), but consider really hitting a rod "maxing out". its a quick burst that the body requires very little oxygen to exicute. but its really a bit overkill (unless your trying to beat tommy. lol) and not a necesity at all if you keep yourself realatively fit. surf cat broke it down real good, you dont have to be a gym rat. you dont need to be jacked to chuck 125g or 8nbait.

(but it makes ya look good on the beach for the ladies. )


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## Tracker16 (Feb 16, 2009)

Hey Earl this turned out to be a pretty good (and informative) thread. I guess maybe I will have to do a _little_ exercise after all as it seems to be the general consensus that fitness is key. Dang it I was just getting into a really comfortable routine of ploppin on the sofa and drinking a beer while watching fishing shows on tv : ) Hope to see you out there this spring


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## Entropy (Mar 9, 2008)

consider those beers your 12oz curls... haha


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## Led (Feb 1, 2001)

Speed & Power will have little to no effect if your technique is wrong/poor.

Perfect your technique then slowly add the power, if your technique is wrong then adding speed will not help one bit. :redface:

I would suggest that you find a sound technique, understand how (& why) a cast works before adding too much power or rushing a cast. 

Personally, I have seen far too many casters who over power a cast or rush in at the wrong time and pick up their sinker at the 175yd line only to see the little guy with sound technique walk up to the 230yd line to collect theirs. 

Another good tip - don't over rod yourself, find a rod that you can use comfortably, go too stiff and your distances will go backwards. 

Have fun


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## Kwesi W. (Apr 14, 2006)

I was starting to think I was alone on this one.... lol



Led said:


> Speed & Power will have little to no effect if your technique is wrong/poor.
> 
> Perfect your technique then slowly add the power, if your technique is wrong then adding speed will not help one bit. :redface:
> 
> ...


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## Charkbait (Oct 15, 2007)

it's not an either or proposition guys...do both...it works.

another point being that you may only need to exert "x" power to achieve a long cast. to the extent that you increase your ability to exert power you'll require less effort to exert "x" power and therefore smooth yourself out and possibly increasing your cast.

Don't have to be hulk to understand that one.


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## 9 rock (Nov 30, 2008)

I dont think we will see big danny running to the gym any time soon



9rock


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## Tracker16 (Feb 16, 2009)

Entropy said:


> consider those beers your 12oz curls... haha


You better believe it :beer:


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## Earl-DC (Jan 19, 2001)

*There is no subsitute for Speed and Power*

I, at no time in any of my post mentioned the size of the caster, simply because *speed and power comes in all sizes, shape and ages*. 

I have also seen strong guys with poor technique out cast guys with much better technique but no power to finish out the cast. As the saying goes *(Junk-in junk-out), (power-in power-out).* 

Name one little guy in the UK with sound technique that can outcast *Danny*. 
Name one little guy in the US with sound technique that can outcast *Tommy*. 
They are at the top of the game because they both have it all *technique, speed and power. * 

As I stated: *there is no substitute for speed an power*, sacrificing speed and power sole for technique is a *big mistake*, there is no reason why you can’t learn technique and form, strengthen your body, and increase your speed at the same time. 

GOD BLESS!
Earl-DC aka Trini-Cast


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## billr87 (Jan 13, 2008)

larry. as you said,you got exhausted after three casts.it used to be, that we only got off about 5-6 casts a day. now, everyone seems to think they need 8-10-12-or more a day. after a cast or two, take a breather. if it's hot, and humid, i go, cast, then pass, cast,pass.but i'm a little different from you younger guys. i'm happy seeing everyone and casting. i don't worry about wind,a lot of it , or lack of it. everyone casts under the same conditions. one of the best for well over 20 years told me, that he always seemed to get his best cast on the 3rd-or 4th cast. hell, at my age, i'm just happy to be casting. i'll continue until i can't, and then go gracefully.


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## skunk king (Mar 25, 2008)

I could squat over 500 pounds when I was 16 so where is my distance! 

lots of great comments about conditioning. I would like to add that in addition to core strength exercises, casters should also focus on rotary muscle strength. These are the muscles that control your shoulder, keep it in the socket, etc. They're small and easily fatigued with 10 pounds of weight. In fact, it's best to work them with lower weights because higher weights will bring the larger muscles into play, diminishing the isolation. Strengthening these aren't as sexy as bench pressing 400 pounds, but they will help you gain better control of your new found strength. It'll also reduce the risk of injury while casting and weight training. 

I'm not nearly the caster most on here are, but I do know a thing or two about weight training. Hitting the smaller muscles for an activity with lots of shoulder rotation could save some of you guys a lot of pain and down time. I tore my shoulder playing football and then again weight training back in the day and it's given me fits ever since. Rotary exercises made a tremendous improvement in the condition as well as helped in overall strength since these smaller muscles help in balancing weight, slight shoulder movements, etc. I imagine training them will help casters by having more control over the rod just before bringing the violence.


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## Led (Feb 1, 2001)

Earl,

Steve Morris, maybe half the size of Danny and probably 5/8's of Tommy - take the sinker down to 100g's and then watch. 

Now if Steve was 25% bigger then ....

Technique* IS* everything, both Tommy & Danny have technique and know when to apply power.

In the words of Colin Chapman (Lotus Cars) - Power is nothing without control


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## Charkbait (Oct 15, 2007)

baby steps skunk...just trying to get them to pickup a weight...preventive maintenance comes later.


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## Earl-DC (Jan 19, 2001)

Led:

You cannot apply what you don’t have! 

Danny and Tommy *have POWER to apply*.

My point stall is: if you don’t have the power needed for the BIG HIT then go to the GYM and get it. 

(Junk-in junk-out) (Power-in power-out) 

Technique without power is just a *NICE LOOKING CAST*, I know, been there, told that! 

GOD BLESS!!
Earl-DC aka Trini-Cast.


Ps: Stay tuned for my next post: it gets even more exciting.


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

1. *Take a balanced approach*.

It should not be an either/ or proposition. 

2. *Know your weaknesses.*
If your fairly young and strong, but new to casting, you will certainly do better to focus more on technique than strength training.

If your a little older and have been at the game awhile ( already have some technique), then it pays to add a training regimen. This is especially important if your say, past 40, where the body starts to naturally decline. They say you have to increase your work out routine (flexibility and strength) by 5 % for each year over 40, just to maintain where you were last year. -- *THat's to maintain*- if you want to improve - you'll need to up the ante a bit. 

I'm not suggesting that those under 40 don't need to consider pysical conditioning- I'm just stressing that it becomes critical as you age.


Yes it's tough to dedicate time to both technique and physical fitness-- but ignoring either one will leave you short of your true potential.

At the end of the day--- it boils down to one question-- *How bad do you want it ?*


3. *Know your goals*.

For some of us it's just a hobby, fun and relaxing, and making too big a deal out of it may take all the fun out of it. If it becomes a drudgery, how long are you going to continue ? 

For me personally, I'm not sure I have the time, inclination, or dedication it requires to get to the top level. If however you really want to push yourself to find out if you have what it takes, then you will need to dedicate the time it takes to find out just how good you can be.

To quote Tommy (again ) -- *How bad do you want it ?*


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## TreednNC (Jul 1, 2005)

What if I use braid on my 525 knobby conversion custom mag? Will that substitute for speed and power?


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## Charkbait (Oct 15, 2007)

yes treed, because braid has more power


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

Everthing is relative-- what you do for a living- the amount of exercise you get at work- will determine how much effort you will need to put into fitness outside of work.

For years I was employed at power plants- a very physically demanding job, and I had to climb numerous sets of stairs and ladders every shift- after a couple of years I had decent leg muscles from all that climbing, and got a decent upper body work out from opening large chain operated valves, etc.

Then I got promoted up the chain, and eventually spent most of the shift sitting at the controls desk of the plant. My physical work out went to almost nil.

I now spend my entire day behind a computer screen ( as a lot of us do) so it becomes all the more necessary to get exercise outside of work.

My point ? Well I'm not particularly interested in slinging sledge hammers and climbing around on steel structures any more, so if I want to stay fit, I'm forced to do it on my own time.

It's easier to go home and be a couch potato than hit the gym, and that's fine if that's what you want to do-- but it's a bit interesting to hear how many folks want to add another hundred feet to their cast-- but really aren't interested in the effort that it takes to get that extra hundred feet.

True, if you have no technique that first 100 feet can be gained thru simple technique improvement- the next 100 feet with more refined technique-- at some point, if you neglect the fact that it is a physical sport- requiring speed, strength, and fitness, you will top out on technique and find the only way to add more distance is thru increased physical exertion-- which if you don't work out-- you won't have to give.


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## TreednNC (Jul 1, 2005)

Wouldnt you like to see somebody like Magnus Samuelsson (bro in law is a strong man competitor, only reason i know who he is) have the technique Tommy or Danny have?


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## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

Surf Cat said:


> Everthing is relative-- what you do for a living- the amount of exercise you get at work- will determine how much effort you will need to put into fitness outside of work.
> 
> For years I was employed at power plants- a very physically demanding job, and I had to climb numerous sets of stairs and ladders every shift- after a couple of years I had decent leg muscles from all that climbing, and got a decent upper body work out from opening large chain operated valves, etc.
> 
> ...



Mark,

That's kind of scary....

At 19 started my career as a powerplant Auxiliary Operator (actually a helper..lol). Spent the next 5 years climbing ladders, stairs and turning big valves.

At 24 moved into the control room and spent 15 years running the plant. Started with antiquated pneumatic controls and transitioned to DCS.

At 39 became a shift supervisor that spends a lot of time behind a computer.

Kind of a mirror image.. 

Tommy


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## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

TreednNC said:


> Wouldnt you like to see somebody like Magnus Samuelsson (bro in law is a strong man competitor, only reason i know who he is) have the technique Tommy or Danny have?


Treed,

I've often wondered what a true world class freakish athlete like Julius Peppers could do with a zipplex and a little technique....

Tommy


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

Tommy said:


> Mark,
> 
> That's kind of scary....
> 
> ...



Yep, I knew you climbed the same ropes, er, ladders , that I did.

THe only work out I get at work anymore is when a V.P. or C.E.O. asks me to go along on a golf outing,, not that I'm complaining mind you.


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

Tommy said:


> Treed,
> 
> I've often wondered what a true world class freakish athlete like Julius Peppers could do with a zipplex and a little technique....
> 
> Tommy


Unfortunatley, (as you well know), the monetary rewards for winning casting events arent likely to intice such individuals into the sport , but yeah, I have wondered the same thing.


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## TreednNC (Jul 1, 2005)

Tommy, you do share a lot of the same physical characteristics of some of those guys. Big broad chest. Same with Big Danny from what Ive seen on videos


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

It's such a simple matter of physics, that I can't believe it is even debatable.

To get an object to fight gravity and travel a specific distance requires a specific amount of power (energy). To get it to travel further requires an increase in power(energy) (so as to increase it's initial velocity).

Being that we are humans, "technique" is nothing more than a translation of applying the power needed, in the proper sequence, with proper timing.

Yeah, I'm well aware, not as simple as it sounds. But you simply can't defy (or deny) physics.

If the power isn't there to be harnessed, all the "technique" in the world isn't going to achieve distance.


period--- end of story- 

Admittedly there is the rare individual that may not appear strong in stature or appearance, and seems to have a natural ability to harness whatever "power" they posess to a greater extent than others of the same size-- this is an exception to the rule-- which is why individuals of a naturally stronger build-- will always dominate contests of strength (power, energy, etc.)

Not to discourage the smaller competitors, but if you think you can rely solely on technique to overcome "brawn", this isn't a case of David versus Goliath.

It's purely a matter of physics.


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## 9 rock (Nov 30, 2008)

this guy is posted on the other thread as being the clubs first 300 yd caster
much smaller than big danny and tommy looks to be in good shape though


9rock


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## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

9 rock said:


> this guy is posted on the other thread as being the clubs first 300 yd caster
> much smaller than big danny and tommy looks to be in good shape though
> 
> 
> 9rock


That's Steve Morris. Not a big guy but excellent technique and really quick.

Tommy


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## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

What does it take to cast big distance?? Is it training?? Is it technique?? 

When I started down the distance casting road 10 years ago lifting weights never crossed my mind. Still in my 30’s and fairly strong I just never thought about it. I hooked up with several guys that were better casters and started learning. Thinking I had some skill, I showed up at my first tournament in the spring of ’99 and took a butt whippin…lol. I was casting 480’ while guys like Mike Langston, Bill Kennedy and others were well into the 700’s. 

At first I was convinced the only thing that stood between those guys and me was the gear. If only I had one of those really cool Zzipplex rods and a reel with one of those fancy knob thingy’s on the side then surely 700’ would be easy….. 

Boy was I wrong. 

Got the rod (not a zippy but a Greys P300TZ) and a reel complete with the knobby thing but was stuck at the 550’ wall. The gear did not do it. No matter how hard I tried to hit it or how fast I tuned the reel (now THATwas a disaster) I just could not break through. 

In 2000 I went to a Breakaway seminar. Roger Mortimer took an interest and worked with me on technique. I guess he saw something because he told me then that I’d be the US Champion one day….  I became obsessed with learning how to cast. The information that is so readily available on the internet today just did not exist then. I pestered guys like Bill Kennedy, Jerry Valentine and Dave Thomashey for help and they all were more than willing to give it. Slowly over the next couple of years it came together. In 2002 I jumped from a mid 500’ caster to hitting 744’ at the SCUSA Worlds. In 03 I was lucky enough to attend a seminar by Peter Thain. In one day he got through my (hard) head and I began to understand the physics of casting. Things continued to improve and a couple of real good years followed.

Through all of this, I never picked up a weight.

In the past couple of years the weight training has helped. Like I said in an earlier post, my distance really dropped in 07 and came back strong in 08 after hitting the gym. I studied plyometrics and added what I thought would apply to the workouts. The running and especially the jumping just didn’t work for my overweight 47 yr old body but applying the weight training principles seemed to really help. I’m still hitting the gym, and hope there is still room for improvement in technique.

I think one thing that has to be mentioned is natural talent. Some people just have a natural ability for throwing sports. Just because a guy is a world class powerlifter doesn’t mean he will excel in throwing the javelin.


It is a combination of speed, strength and the dedication to learn the proper technique.

Is it training?? Is it technique??

Yes. 

IMHO this is one of the best threads lately in the distance forum. 

Tommy


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## BlaineO (Jan 22, 2001)

Hello,

For the record, Plyometrics has been dropped as a training technique for a number of years, many world class athletes careers have been shortened or even ended because of the stress fractures, joint tissue damage, and generally over stress of the body caused by plyometrics, especially those involved in throwing sports that are over 30.

Good thread, and IMHO it really is about using what you have to the best of your ability, not a certain body type or training regimen.

Obviously being in resonable shape helps, all other things being equal, the longest in bounds cast wins.........

Blaine


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## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

Hello Blaine, good to see you posting. Hope you and your family are well.

Actually plyometrics is still being used by trainers. One of the guys that I work with is married to a Physical Therapist/Sports trainer and they use the techniques to train for specific sports. That is where I first heard about it. From what I've learned most of it is not for older guys. Especially the jumping.... 

I am NOT advocating or suggesting that anyone use plyometrics for casting. Just stating what I've done to help with explosive strength. 

Are you coming back to the field??

Tommy


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## BlaineO (Jan 22, 2001)

Tommy,

The US olympic committee dropped approval of plyometrics in the late nineties (I think the time is right) because of injuries from plyometric training.

With a trainer it might be OK, I would not like for someone to find 12 year old material touting plyometrics as being the greatest thing since sliced bread, only to injure themselves.

I blew a knee out in the eighties with a trainer (Physical theraphy), doing plyometrics, so I have kind of kept up with it. I was doing rehab coming off of knee surgery, and blew the "good" one, again.

I don't know about picking up competitive casting again, my time is pretty limited. 

You are doing a great job as an ambassador for the sport, BTW.

I hope you and yours are doing well, and you are enjoying the new place.

Later,

Blaine


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## rojaway (Jan 24, 2001)

Hi guys
I just registered and read this thread with interest, a couple of things i noteced were-
'In 2000 I went to a Breakaway seminar. Roger Mortimer took an interest and worked with me on technique. I guess he saw something because he told me then that I’d be the US Champion one day…. '
Cant remember what it was exactly, but i could see there was raw talent there. 
One thing i've learned from sports is that i respond to to encouragement I guess most of us do too!, 
The other comment was-
'I think one thing that has to be mentioned is natural talent'
That is spot on too, obviously something i was blessed with, inherited from my mother who was a sports champion way back in 1939! god bless her. 
Both my brother and I were British taekwondo champions in our early 20's, by early 30's i discovered the bruises hurt more and lasted longer so i turned to casting, (having fished since i was 6)
The understanding of training , fitness, suppleness and strength i gained from many years of martial arts certainly helped, now i'm not the biggest guy out there, 6ft tall and 200#, but i watched and learned.
Steve Morris, the guy pictured earlier on the thread is a very good friend, he's about 5-10 and 180#, anyone remember Andy Green? 5-9 and about 160-170# soaking wet, Andy hit over 900ft with 125 and 150 but only 894 with 175, he's a little guy but fit, supple and strong.
The one thing that got me, Steve, Andy, Paul Kerry, Neil Mackellow, Tommy and many othersto the top was a very strong desire to succeed and a hell of a lot of practice to perfect the technique and timing neccessary to get there.
As Tommy said, Just because a guy is a world class powerlifter doesn’t mean he will excel in throwing the javelin.
I've suffered back trouble since i was 18, when it's ok i can do anything, when it's gone i can barely walk, but something my osteopath told me many years ago stuck in my head - a stretched muscle is a strong muscle because it works over a wider range, that's worth bearing in mind!
I think that's about enough from me now, except, I aim to be back in Texas next year, Yeeehaaa!


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## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

Roger,

Welcome, it is GREAT to see you here on Pier and Surf... 

For those that don't know, roj is Roger Mortimer, one of the all time casting greats. His help and words of encouragement meant a lot to me back in 2000. 

Thanks Roger.

Roger and I cast as team-mates in 06 at the Primo Event. What a weekend it was.

Look forward to seeing you in Texas. Will you be attending the Terry Carrol event this summer??

Tommy


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## rojaway (Jan 24, 2001)

Tommy said "Will you be attending the Terry Carrol event this summer??"
You bet i will, a couple of days back i received a brand new Bullet from Terry, made on the original mandrel but with new materials and new technology.
It's several ounces lighter than my old ones but still incredibly powerful, how does he do it?
I'll be having my first few chucks with it this weekend as the UKSF will be giving casting demonstrations and tuition at the UK's biggest angling show called 'The Big One'
But Tommy, i'm desk bound now and nowhere near as fit and strong as i used to be so don't expect any record casts from me, the style is still as smooth, they just don't go as far, the main problem now is that the lead lands too close to where i'm standing!
Hi to Blaine, Charlie, Earl and all my other buddies over there!
Roj


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## BlaineO (Jan 22, 2001)

Hi roj,

Good to see you posting, and Hi back to you.

I do have one question for you, though.

Is this bullet.....................silver......

Blaine


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## kingfish (Feb 28, 2004)

hey roj,

Wayne hill here. I really enjoyed casting with you in florida a few years back, and the day of fishing at Varn park. That invitation to visit me still stands. You will like Myrtle Becah, and just as Tommy, I was stuck around 625 but added a hundred feet to my casting, much I attribute to your insrtuction and candor the day we fished. I'm sure a sip of the crown can still be had to ease those tired old bones of yours. Good luck


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## Sea Level (Nov 20, 2005)

Hey roj, Jeff Rafter here. Like Wayne, I enjoyed casting with you here in St. Augustine that March day in 2005. I also enjoyed the Pompano fishing with you and Neil the day before down near Ponce Inlet. I never took up competitive distance casting, but the lessons I got from you have served me well fishing the surf. Anytime your travels bring you back to Florida, we'd love to have the only champion of the "Florida Surf Casters Open" ( Roger Mortimer @ 744 feet 3/20/05) return for a visit.


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## rojaway (Jan 24, 2001)

Well, i got back last night after a hectic weekend casting and coaching, very tired!
Just checked the forum and you're all here, Blaine, Wayne Jeff, good to see you're all ok and that i was able to help you. Wayne i still remember your offer, and the day we fished together. When i get my finances sorted 'I'll be back' two things i love most are travelling and fishing, going over there i get to do both! cool eh!
I've got some great memories and photo's of my trips to the US, made some great friends too and as i mentioned before, i get as much pleasure from helping others as i do from doing it myself.
I still have an e-mail i received from John Pearce, a little guy who was at the Florida tourney, he was struggling to hit good numbers but remembered the tips i gave him, he was hitting around the low 5's, then he stopped to think, then went out and hit a 555, then 594 then a 621 and finished with a 625. I could feel his excitment and delight in the way he wrote, it made me feel very good too, and almost had tears in my eyes. For me that's what it's all about, our brotherhood, we learn and then pass it on to others and share their enjoyment.
Long may it continue!
Roj


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