# Another wind knot question



## bob8619 (Mar 26, 2013)

I get wind knots when using lightweight lures - 3/8oz and lighter-- which require twitching, such as DOA shrimp and MirrOdine. This is not an issue with over spooling, I close the bail manually, I stop the lure before it hits the water to take up slack. It is simply due to reeling up loose line because when you twitch the rod (away from the lure) and then return the rod to its previous position, there is then slack in the line because all you did pull the lure closer by twitching. Now, at this point, if you twitch again you create more slack, or if instead of twitching you reel, youre just reeling up that slack and now you have loose line on spool which eventually comes off all at once and theres the wind knot.........

How do you prevent this? Surely the people who rave about these lures arent dealing with this same issue because the amount of knots is rediculous. I have a reel which is said to be "prone" to wind knots but I only experience them when I use the aforementioned lures. I have a feeling that ANY reel will do this if it gets enough loose line on it.


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## AbuMike (Sep 3, 2007)

You are getting a tremendous amount of line twist from somewhere. May want to check the way you are spooling the line on. If no twist is present then after fishing for a while check again. Line twist is forming loops when you are in the slack mode of the retreive.


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## bob8619 (Mar 26, 2013)

Sorry, I forgot to mention that its 20# Sufix 832 braid that I am using. I also don't want to hear "switch to mono", I would like to hear from those who may have advice on how to correct this issue, not just switch types. Also, the rod is rated for 1/4oz - 1 oz lures so I'm not throwing too light of a lure either.


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## bob8619 (Mar 26, 2013)

Thanks Mike, These are occurring on cast only. Will that theory apply to casting as well?


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## AbuMike (Sep 3, 2007)

on cast because they are in the spool. Loops are forming and you are winding over them thus they unravil on the cast and cause a windknot. It will get some better once the line gets broken in but will still be present.


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## wdbrand (May 24, 2007)

I twitch 2" to 5" rapalas in freshwater a lot using 6/20 PP. It's the slack created by the method itself. I've never found a practical way to eliminate it, only keep it managable most times. I can eliminate it by putting a clothes pin type rig between the reel and 1st. guide and manually put the line in after each cast before I retrieve each time. More trouble than it's worth but did the job since the tension on the line keeps slack from getting to reel. Otherwise, just live with it. One thing I've found that helps is to twitch without reeling, then drag rod and immediately reel out the slack, then repeat the twitch. However, this breaks the rhythm but I've seen it draw a reaction strike similar to a bait fleeing a fish. The fish will tell you if you can get away with that action instead of a steady twitch and reel. Mike, I've had wind knots with a dozen different reels while twitching but not when crankin. Can't buy reel twisting the line here, simply the method of fishing the lure. All spinning reels do that when twitching a lure.


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## sunburntspike (Oct 4, 2010)

would this action and result happen with a baitcaster?personally i use mono on my trout/inshore rigs so i don't expierence as many windknots or twisting at all,spinning or baitcaster,so just curious if changing gear would be the answer


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## bob8619 (Mar 26, 2013)

Good info wbbrand, thank you! I don't have an experience with those reels sunburnt so I can say but I'm sure someone will chime in on it.


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## JAM (Jul 22, 2002)

20 Pound on a I'm Guessing 2500 series reel is overkill, when you are throwing fractions 1/4 3/8, the 20 Pound Braid IMHO is too thick and stiff to throw that lite of a lure. Also all Braids are not breated equal, I used to get a Butt load of WindKnots with Power Pro when throwing the Lite Stuff even using the 10 pound 2 pound Dia. 

The Berkley guy came in our shop a few years back Round 5 I think could be 6, and gave me a Spool of a "NEW PRODUCT" it was Berkley Crystal Fireline, 10 pound Test 4 pound dia. I have yet to get a Wind Knot with this Product.. But the reason is it is not a braided line, it is Micro Fused Dyneema. Hence No Twist, Hence no more Wind Knots.. 

Some reels just do not like Braided Line, and I would also Check your Roller Bearing.. 

Good Luck... I would NEVER go back to Mono on my spinners.. 
JAM


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## Drumdum (Jan 6, 2003)

bob8619 said:


> I get wind knots when using lightweight lures - 3/8oz and lighter-- which require twitching, such as DOA shrimp and MirrOdine. This is not an issue with over spooling, I close the bail manually, I stop the lure before it hits the water to take up slack. It is simply due to reeling up loose line because when you twitch the rod (away from the lure) and then return the rod to its previous position, there is then slack in the line because all you did pull the lure closer by twitching. Now, at this point, if you twitch again you create more slack, or if instead of twitching you reel, youre just reeling up that slack and now you have loose line on spool which eventually comes off all at once and theres the wind knot.........
> 
> 
> 
> How do you prevent this? Surely the people who rave about these lures arent dealing with this same issue because the amount of knots is rediculous. I have a reel which is said to be "prone" to wind knots but I only experience them when I use the aforementioned lures. I have a feeling that ANY reel will do this if it gets enough loose line on it.





JAM said:


> 20 Pound on a I'm Guessing 2500 series reel is overkill, when you are throwing fractions 1/4 3/8, the 20 Pound Braid IMHO is too thick and stiff to throw that lite of a lure. Also all Braids are not breated equal, I used to get a Butt load of WindKnots with Power Pro when throwing the Lite Stuff even using the 10 pound 2 pound Dia.
> 
> The Berkley guy came in our shop a few years back Round 5 I think could be 6, and gave me a Spool of a "NEW PRODUCT" it was Berkley Crystal Fireline, 10 pound Test 4 pound dia. I have yet to get a Wind Knot with this Product.. But the reason is it is not a braided line, it is Micro Fused Dyneema. Hence No Twist, Hence no more Wind Knots..
> 
> ...


 Jam,have got the 10,and without a doubt I think it will do well on my jigging and casting ,but have been fishing with 6lb test crystal.. Same spool for 3yrs now.. Have hoisted fish as big as 3-4lb over the rails of piers.. I use it in the mountains when I go there for plugging also. As well as small jigs to one quarter for specks and flounder,from beach and pier.. Have caught a HUGE variety of fish with this line and rig from cobes and kings to alberts as well.. Tater has done the same and he lives on the planks catching bait as well as spainish on gotchas..

Imho to answer your question,pack the line on by hand wrapped with a towel with label side up on the spool ..Do not allow baitshops to put it on,unless you are going to tie the line to a mailbox or some stationary point,then put tension on the line and reel in.. BREAKIN PERIOD WITH FIRELINE OR ANYOTHER BRAID IS CRITICAL! YES,you will get a few windknots at first,especially if spool is overfilled,but you will have 0.000% of a windknot problem after that if you just occasionally look down at your spool to check for loops.


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## long1 (May 1, 2013)

A lot of spinner fisherman don't know how to properly fill a reel (off the end of the spool, in the direction of the reel, not unwinding the spool) there's a lot of video, so I won't go into it. I also "condition" my line. I hook the end to a stump with 3 swivels and walk it out to the end, and reel it in a couple of times with pressure, makes the line limp as Tom Cruises' wrist....I heard his wrist was not very strong
Helps if you have a long field in your backyard


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## Fishman (Apr 23, 2000)

Drumdum said:


> BREAKIN PERIOD WITH FIRELINE OR ANYOTHER BRAID IS CRITICAL! YES,you will get a few windknots at first,especially if spool is overfilled,but you will have 0.000% of a windknot problem after that if you just occasionally look down at your spool to check for loops.



Yes let the bait shop put the line on the spool they can get it on tighter than most of us will. Just don’t let anyone spool on the line I’d let a dependable person do it there.

Drumdum what you say about break in time and amount of line on spool is right on.


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## JAM (Jul 22, 2002)

Drumdum said:


> Imho to answer your question,pack the line on by hand wrapped with a towel with label side up on the spool ..Do not allow baitshops to put it on,unless you are going to tie the line to a mailbox or some stationary point,then put tension on the line and reel in.. BREAKIN PERIOD WITH FIRELINE OR ANYOTHER BRAID IS CRITICAL! YES,you will get a few windknots at first,especially if spool is overfilled,but you will have 0.000% of a windknot problem after that if you just occasionally look down at your spool to check for loops.


I can put more heat on it with the shop Line winder at the shop then tieing to mailbox technique.. Key is to pack it tight.. And I pack em tight.. Can get 315 yard of 17 on my 525's.. 300 yrds of Crystal 10 on my 2500 Fuego.. 

JAM


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## bob8619 (Mar 26, 2013)

I cant break my braid in because I get so many wind knots that I cut it off and any break in that was done is now in the trash can.


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## wdbrand (May 24, 2007)

Bob, a lot of good advise has been given. You say you can't break the line due to wind knots. Fill the spool with new line[your choice] and don't use that reel to twitch with til it is broke in. If the problem still exists, I would look to the reel as the culprit, as long as the line was put on right in the first place. I never twitch with anything but a light action/fast tip 5-1/2' lightning rod and when I respool, I go back to twitching immediately. Very few problems if you follow the recs of other posters. Now I don't have a 0.000% on wind knots, but I'll live with what few I do get. Also, my ultra lite reel only holds 90 yards of 6/20 PP, and I usually only put 50 yards of new on at a time so it don't bankrupt me. This is river fishin so the knot ain't hurtin me. Bigger reels get a full load of new when it's time. Jerk jiggin can play hell with wind knots same as twitchin a rapala or wacky rig due to the slack. Kenny probably does more jerkin on the tube than most, so ask him what his experience has been..


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## Drumdum (Jan 6, 2003)

Fishman said:


> Yes let the bait shop put the line on the spool they can get it on tighter than most of us will. Just don’t let anyone spool on the line I’d let a dependable person do it there.
> 
> Drumdum what you say about break in time and amount of line on spool is right on.





JAM said:


> I can put more heat on it with the shop Line winder at the shop then tieing to mailbox technique.. Key is to pack it tight.. And I pack em tight.. Can get 315 yard of 17 on my 525's.. 300 yrds of Crystal 10 on my 2500 Fuego..
> 
> JAM


 To BOTH of you... I have been spooling spinning reels by myself in this manner with fireline since it hit the market.. Only twice have I allowed a reputable tackleshop to do it,both times with TONS of windknots... I do not think MAX pressure to put the line on the spool is required. If you do that then what you cast out is so much looser than what is under it,imho,that can cause a problem with windknots as well.. Back to what I said,having spooled it for however long the product has been on the market(15 or more years),and with the tips of manually closing bail,not overfilling,and making sure there are no loops in the line,as well as a good breakin,have made my own solution to the windknot problem.. BUT,that is just me and it works,therefore I suggested it.. The guy with the original post can go to a tackle shop and get it done there,I just know it works for me...


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## wdbrand (May 24, 2007)

Kenny, I've always spooled by hand and don't have anymore problems than I would at a shop. Besides there ain't many shops on the river bank when I need to respool sometimes.


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## Drumdum (Jan 6, 2003)

wdbrand said:


> Kenny, I've always spooled by hand and don't have anymore problems than I would at a shop. Besides there ain't many shops on the river bank when I need to respool sometimes.


 Aside from that it works,just buy a bulk spool,put it on properly yourself,and spend less bucks..


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## Juan_EZ (Apr 10, 2006)

not sure if this was mentioned yet... but snap swivels at the end of your line to connect your lure can help reduce the amount of line twist... also check the roller bearing on your spinning reel to ensure that it is spinning freely. lastly, wind knots/ line twist are just inhearant problems with spinning reels every now and then you may have to take to cast a sinker to remove any fluff or excess line twist from the spool.


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## bob8619 (Mar 26, 2013)

Tried all of the above, wind knots every couple minutes.... I have lost all interest in fishing.


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## AbuMike (Sep 3, 2007)

would really help if you can snap a couple pics of the spool. one before the cast and one after.


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## bob8619 (Mar 26, 2013)

I would but I can explain it, there is massive amounts of loose line laying on the spool after I retrieve my cast. Obviously holding the line while I reel in solves this but I never see anyone else have to do this so I'd rather learn how others do it but I'm starting to believe the stupid reel is to blame. Or rod, who knows. All fine and dandy until its time to throw a light lure that you retrieve with a twitch. I know this isnt the normal wind knot that is bound to happen from time to time, if this was the norm, I guarantee braid would be discontinued. I guess some reels just do a better job at preventing loose line from coming off in clumps!


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## bob8619 (Mar 26, 2013)

To repack the line by the cast and reel in fast mothod, I would literally have to do that after every normal cast, thats how bad it is


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## AbuMike (Sep 3, 2007)

You really need to repack the whole spool now. I know it sounds like a chore but it needs to be done.


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## bob8619 (Mar 26, 2013)

I have done that though. I tied it to my mailbox and walked it out a couple times now. It all happens after using twitch baits. Which I understand leads to reeling up slack, which leads to knots/tangles whatever you want to call them. My only gripe is how does anybody EVER use these types of lures and not go crazy? I know for a fact people have much better results than this. And they do it without having to hold the braid in their fingers while reeling their cast in.


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## bob8619 (Mar 26, 2013)

I'm at a crossroads, do I try a different braid and risk that it still happens or buy a new combo that people have success with just to find out it was my braid.... Fishing isnt supposed to be this complicated.


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## wdbrand (May 24, 2007)

You might have stated this and I failed to see it, but is this on a particular reel or all your spinning reels. What you have described jest ain't normal. Change reels, use the same size and type line and the same style of fishing. If it happens with different reels, then it's simply user error.


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## bob8619 (Mar 26, 2013)

Hi, its on the Battle 4000 combo. I have an old cheap reel that I will put this braid on and try.


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## bob8619 (Mar 26, 2013)

Not exactly a fair test yet but I put it on my old reel, cast out back and purposely reeled in a lot of slack (a lot more than I would get in the water) I cast what I feel was more than I normally can with the Battle reel without getting a knot, eventually I got a knot but as I said, that was with excessive loose line. I am going to run out to test in the water now.


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## wdbrand (May 24, 2007)

Good deal. That is the only way you'll solve your problem Duplicate the exact same conditions that have caused the problem before with a different reel. Do let the board know.


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## bob8619 (Mar 26, 2013)

Ok I went out and first I cast my 1/4oz doa shrimp over 40 times and the MirrOdine over 20 times. All being retrieved how I would normally retrieve them except a handful of them I actually tried to add EXTRA slack. So over 60 casts, some with the wind, some against the wind, some across the wind. Every way I could imagine, some finesse, some hard as heck, and NOT A SINGLE knot whatsoever. I even caught my first speckled sea trout in the process... 

Same rod, same braid. Only difference besides reel was I tied the braid to the mono on the old reel so that it would have some backing. I doubt having backing changes anything. Therefore, its the reel.... Relieved but bummed all at once!


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## Drumdum (Jan 6, 2003)

Bob, bought a 5000 battle about a month ago.. Used it a couple of times and noticed the thing was spooling bottom heavy.. Looked into it,and it has a spacer that comes with reel in package and has instructions on how to stop it from being bottom or top heavy by adding or subtracting spacers... Don't know if that is the problem with your battle,but glad to see WD helped ya come up with something,hate to see someone quit feesh'n cause of a feesh'n reel....


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## bob8619 (Mar 26, 2013)

The 4000's are the troublesome ones from what I gather. I've spent enough time and money on this stupid reel so I'm not trying anymore. I will keep it on the shelve and if I ever go do any live bait fishing I will spool it with some mono.


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## wdbrand (May 24, 2007)

Glad you got it figgered out.


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## bob8619 (Mar 26, 2013)

Me too! I guess I will go with a Shimano Stradic now. Those seem to be good


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## AbuMike (Sep 3, 2007)

bob8619 said:


> Me too! I guess I will go with a Shimano Stradic now. Those seem to be good


Glad you got it worked out. If you go that way they also have spooling shims. They sometimes have a tendency to spool top or bottom heavy.


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## bob8619 (Mar 26, 2013)

The stradics do?


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## plotalot (Apr 27, 2009)

Many spinning reels have the potential to spool top or bottom heavy. The good ones that do, come with shims and directions to alleviate or at least minimize the problem.


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## bob8619 (Mar 26, 2013)

Gotcha. Surely it'll be better than my wind knot machine


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## AbuMike (Sep 3, 2007)

bob8619 said:


> The stradics do?


Yep many do. My $300 Fuego's even have them.


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## Drumdum (Jan 6, 2003)

AbuMike said:


> Glad you got it worked out. If you go that way they also have spooling shims. They sometimes have a tendency to spool top or bottom heavy.


 Mike in my post I may have gotten the battle mixed with the new spinfisher v I just bought.. Haven't really looked in the box to see if they came with instructions or even had the extra shims..?? Sorry... :redface:


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## wdbrand (May 24, 2007)

I've got 5 Pinnacles from ultra lite to striper size and I've never had that problem with them loading uneven. As far as I'm concerned, a reel that comes with shims to balance the loading, is a poor assed designed reel. A 300 buck reel shouldn't do that.


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## plotalot (Apr 27, 2009)

wd, the reason why reels come with shims is not to overcome a poor ass design. They provide shims, so the user of the reel can fine tune the line lay for varying line diameters. Your Pinnacles have a static roller to spool height relationship that is preset to a happy medium. As long as you are using a line close enough to the size it is designed for, everything is fine.


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## AbuMike (Sep 3, 2007)

wdbrand said:


> I've got 5 Pinnacles from ultra lite to striper size and I've never had that problem with them loading uneven. As far as I'm concerned, a reel that comes with shims to balance the loading, is a poor assed designed reel. A 300 buck reel shouldn't do that.


I agree but I think it's an inherent problem with braid. Maybe because of the slickness or stiffness, I don't know. I do know once the Crystal I use gets broke in I have ZERO problems. Tried all the braids except the newer mixed stuff and Fireline Crystal is the best so far.............I have looked many times at the Pinnacals, you say no trouble mechanically with them?


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## AbuMike (Sep 3, 2007)

plotalot said:


> wd, the reason why reels come with shims is not to overcome a poor ass design. They provide shims, so the user of the reel can fine tune the line lay for varying line diameters. Your Pinnacles have a static roller to spool height relationship that is preset to a happy medium. As long as you are using a line close enough to the size it is designed for, everything is fine.


Sounds logical to me but like I said I'm no expert on spinning reels..


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## jmadre (Jan 3, 2008)

plotalot said:


> Many spinning reels have the potential to spool top or bottom heavy. The good ones that do, come with shims and directions to alleviate or at least minimize the problem.


I had to shim my wife's Stradic 4000 for that reason. I think I used a piece from some packaging from the shim.


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## wdbrand (May 24, 2007)

Biggest problem I' ve had with Pinnacles was taking the bail off to lube and clean and a spring flying somewhere, never to be found. Had to order one and haven't put it in yet. Good drag, instant anti-reverse, smooth to reel. An they don't break the bank.


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## bob8619 (Mar 26, 2013)

Just another update for anyone interested. Took my new reel out tonight and no knots. What a pleasure it is to not have to deal with that nonsense


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## finfish (Jun 1, 2005)

Glad I'm not the only one that has had issues with a Battle 4000. Have tried mono and braid on it and both get wind knots regularly. The braid seems to get less. Lighter lures also result in more wind knots.


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## bob8619 (Mar 26, 2013)

Even with mono? I never tried mono with it but with braid I was losing my mind. Most of my lures are light weight so if I could get 5 casts before a knot I was lucky.


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## finfish (Jun 1, 2005)

Even with mono I get wind knots. Have the reel on a 8' bonefish rod that can cast a light lure pretty well. It seems the line comes off the reel faster than the lure goes out. Which would make you think too much line on the reel or line is just loose. So I removed some line, which helped, but still get wind knot on regular basis. Think I will try the reel on a light surf set up next weekend and see how it works. I think the heavier weights will help.


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## bob8619 (Mar 26, 2013)

Yeah heavier helped in my experience with it. But heavier isnt always possible.


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## gman1253 (Nov 9, 2008)

Here you go - all about wind knots...

http://www.stripersonline.com/t/518285/all-about-wind-knots

http://www.stripersonline.com/t/671111/curing-wind-knot-problems-an-illustrative-story

http://www.stripersonline.com/t/497073/some-hints-for-making-your-spinning-reel-braid-friendly

http://www.stripersonline.com/t/360187/picture-of-a-wind-knot

Just keep in mind that the author is targeting roosterfish & thus has tension on his retrieve as he's reeling in as fast as he can.

I would only add is to get in the habit of looking down at your reel prior to very cast to make sure the line is not looped over the front of the spool & to try to keep tension on the line as your reel.

Depending on your reel Fireline may help.


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## Fishman (Apr 23, 2000)

finfish said:


> Even with mono I get wind knots. Have the reel on a 8' bonefish rod that can cast a light lure pretty well. It seems the line comes off the reel faster than the lure goes out. Which would make you think too much line on the reel or line is just loose. So I removed some line, which helped, but still get wind knot on regular basis. Think I will try the reel on a light surf set up next weekend and see how it works. I think the heavier weights will help.



I believe your problem may be more line twist than a wind knot. Take a look at how your lure is flying out towards the water and see if is helicoptering (spinning in the air). If it is your line is twisting and causing it to bunch up and coming off your spool funky. If this is happening you may need to change your casting style.


I have been a Daiwa fan for quite a few years now. Here is somthing you might want to look at.

http://www.daiwa.com/reel/pop_abs.aspx

Here is one of the reels I am currently using in the 2500 series.

http://www.daiwa.com/reel/detail.aspx?id=560


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## bob8619 (Mar 26, 2013)

Been there, done that. Trust me its not user error. Bad line laying on the penn battle.


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## Drumdum (Jan 6, 2003)

gman1253 said:


> I would only add is to get in the habit of looking down at your reel prior to very cast to make sure the line is not looped over the front of the spool & to try to keep tension on the line as your reel.
> 
> Depending on your reel Fireline may help.


 I agree,and fireline original or crystal will help...



bob8619 said:


> Been there, done that. Trust me its not user error. Bad line laying on the penn battle.


 I own a 2000 battle with crystal fireline,throw gotchas,stingsilvers and other spoons,bass lures,jigs of all kinds,and baitfish with the same rod.. No windknot problems except when line was new,which was 3yrs ago... My son has the 6000,same there.. Unless I have some problems with the brand new 3000's I bought that are packed with 10lb fireline,I would say you have a lemon....


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## bob8619 (Mar 26, 2013)

Me and many others. I have A 4000 and its the 4000 which seems to have the most problems. I have spent over a month trying different things and suggestions and they all failed. If anyone ever gets down here to swfl you are welcome to try it. You will be disappointed .


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## plotalot (Apr 27, 2009)

bob8619 said:


> Me and many others. I have A 4000 and its the 4000 which seems to have the most problems. I have spent over a month trying different things and suggestions and they all failed. If anyone ever gets down here to swfl you are welcome to try it. You will be disappointed .


Want to sell or trade it?


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## bob8619 (Mar 26, 2013)

Seriously?


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## plotalot (Apr 27, 2009)

I wouldn't have asked if I wasn't serious.


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## plotalot (Apr 27, 2009)

PM me a phone number and a good time to call. We'll see if we can come to terms that we both can live with.


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## bob8619 (Mar 26, 2013)

Just make an offer because I wasnt planning on selling it. Was gonna spool it with mono and let guests use it. But for the right price/trade everything is for sale


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## plotalot (Apr 27, 2009)

How about 2 Shimano Sedona 4000 reels straight up trade for your 4000 Battle?


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## bob8619 (Mar 26, 2013)

That might work. I'll get back to you once I have thought it thru


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## bob8619 (Mar 26, 2013)

How old are they and what shape are they in? Which edition are they?


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## plotalot (Apr 27, 2009)

Both of them are FD's and are in good working condition with a only minor scuffing. As far as the age of them IDK, one was given to me by a guy who tried to use it but is a dedicated baitcaster. The other reel I bought from a local young pier rat that needed some cash and I thought that having a second one might not be a bad idea. The only reason I am considering getting rid of them is that my personal preference is for Penn over Shimano. In other words, IMO 1 Penn is > or = to 2 Shimanos.


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