# Could sturgeon ESA listing end NC inshore trawling and gill nets?



## jeffreyweeks (Feb 5, 2009)

The NC DMF is warning state anglers and commercial fishermen to avoid any interactions with Atlantic sturgeon since the fish will be listed as an endangered species by the federal government beginning on April 6. Since it has been illegal to take sturgeon in NC waters for over two decades many folks might be inclined to roll their eyes at this one, but in actuality it appears the listing could have broad implications for Carolina fishermen.

Sturgeon are a pre-historic species that are very rare in NC. I have fished my whole life here and only caught one. Some anglers and commercial fishermen in areas where they are more plentiful have seen them more regularly, but there has never been a time in anyone’s current lifetime that they were common in Carolina waters.

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Could Atlantic sturgeon ESA listing end NC inshore trawling and gill nets?


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## Cdog (Mar 18, 2002)

You can bet the DOW and SELC will get involved in this, and I don't care how anti commercial you are, if you side with them you need your head examined and a swift kick in the nuts...


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## Garboman (Jul 22, 2010)

From time to time Sturgeon were ensnared in the gill nets that I fished as a young man off the Outer Banks some two decades ago, when wearing white boots and Grundens was a matter of pride on Hatteras...

If the Sturgeon was alive I released it..............if it was dead it went on ice and we ate them along with rest of the unmarketable fish as we were poor fellas scratching out a living off a spit of sand and open water that due to a building moratorium at the time had few other opportunities for making a living to be able to live on the beach. I ate fish every day during season, sometimes not out of preference but that was all there was....of all the sources of employment I have endeavored in my time... I enjoyed fishing professionally the best and while I am in daily contact with prominent men in regards to Commercial Real Finance, the fellas in the Grundens will all ways be "The Finest Kind" and the people for whom I have the greatest respect for on this earth.

As far as some of your anti commercial fishing sentiments you have a right to publish your views, I am sure there are plenty of "Sports" who agree with you.

I would recommend you spend a month or so out in the boats with a wet ass, hauling nets in all weathers with the fishermen wondering if they are going to ship enough out to Fulton to make enough of a check to cover expenses and see the world out of their boat...instead of the "Play Time Fishing" you ascribe to...

Read "Striper" by John Cole perhaps it will enlighten you about fishing for a living instead of just writing about fishing for a living....


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## Drumdum (Jan 6, 2003)

Cdog said:


> You can bet the DOW and SELC will get involved in this, and I don't care how anti commercial you are, if you side with them you need your head examined and a swift kick in the nuts...


 Be carefull what you wish for.... As Dog said,yes it may get what many seem to be looking for,and end to commercial fishing as we know it.. Mark my words on this though: eventually it will come around and bite the avg Joe Blow sportsfisherman in the arse as well.. Once you have illiminated the com,you're next on thier shortlist... That is part of what happened on our beaches,it can happen to the avg sporty as well... Dow and Selc take NO PRISONERS,and have the esa as thier weapon of choice......


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## jeffreyweeks (Feb 5, 2009)

Garboman,

"Striper" is a rare book and I no longer have a copy but I have read it...a very good book too. I don't consider myself "anti-commercial" though that is always in the eye of the beholder. Covering Brunswick County for so many years I have gotten to know several commercial fishermen and I understand the "life" is everything you say it is. In fact I can hardly think of a tougher occupation than commercial fisherman, unless it is soldier. I have a healthy respect for the industry.

Having said that I have followed the commercial fishing "lobby" for many years and I ma not fans of theirs at all. I think they have acted terribly, taking money from comms and fighting inevitable change and saying what their members want to hear all the while knowing what is to come. I mean, I have immediate members of my family that can tell a great tale about tobacco farming and claim a rich history there, but that is all gone with the wind. People dislike change but it will come and sometimes it is for the better. 

The truth is if things in NC had worked out like they have in Texas or Florida the people in commercial fishing in NC would be in far better shape. Instead, a very few have made a lot of money (lobbyists and fish house owners) while the workers and average commercial fishermen have been brought along for the ride and are about to get dumped. Are they angry? Of course I would be too. But that doesn't change the fact that the overlords of commercial fishing in NC have been poor farmers and run the resource into the ground, which history will show you has happened in a lot of other places. 

I'd love it if the sea would overflow with fish and NC's great commercial fishing heritage could live on unchanged forever, but that is not realistic. 

Are recreational anglers then to blame for that? I can hardly believe that, since as a rec advocate I have been shouting about these issues for a very long time and seen NC regulators and the comm fishery opt for the short term gain over the long term health of the industry time and time again.

I don't hate or even dislike commercial fishermen, quite the opposite. But I also don't need to be preached to about the facts of the matter. I know them quite well. I really do wish different choices had been made along the way, but then they were not my choices.

But as for your passion for commercial fishing I understand it totally, the good times and the bad, and I DO think those folks are the "Finest Kind." I really do.


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## jeffreyweeks (Feb 5, 2009)

Drumdum said:


> Be carefull what you wish for.... As Dog said,yes it may get what many seem to be looking for,and end to commercial fishing as we know it.. Mark my words on this though: eventually it will come around and bite the avg Joe Blow sportsfisherman in the arse as well.. Once you have illiminated the com,you're next on thier shortlist... That is part of what happened on our beaches,it can happen to the avg sporty as well... Dow and Selc take NO PRISONERS,and have the esa as thier weapon of choice......


Of course I know this...that's why I mentioned the "double-edged sword" in my article. I also know it really is a sad state of affairs when recs have to find their solace behind such "victories." 

But where was all foresight all those many years that comms were shutting recs out of the fisheries game and depleting the resource as they saw fit, and crowing about it? I warned and I warned and I warned. But I (and many others) weren't listened to. 

Where is this rationale now, when gill nets STILL choke off the nursery creeks of southeastern NC and inshore trawlers still rake the waterways in a way that no other state in its right mind would allow?

So...yes eventually it has come to this. I don't like it. But I am hardly going to try and hide the reasons why or put a smile on and pretend I don't remember it was the philosophy of greed and waste and petty political corruption that got us here and you CAN'T blame that on the environmentalists. We have met the enemy and it is us.


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## Dr. Bubba (Nov 9, 1999)

"Signed into law in 1973, the goal of the Endangered Species Act (ESA) was to preserve, protect and recover key domestic species. However, today the law is failing to achieve its primary purpose of species recovery and instead has become a tool for litigation that drains resources away from real recovery efforts and blocks job-creating economic activities.

It has been 23 years since Congress has reauthorized or made any significant, responsible improvements to the Endangered Species Act to ensure that it works for both species and people. After more than two decades, the ESA should be modernized and updated to once again focus the law on true species recovery.

Get the Facts:

In the United States, 1,383 species are listed under the ESA: 5828 animals and 795 plants.
Of the domestic species protected by the ESA, the Fish and Wildlife Service has declared only 20 species recovered. This represents a 1 percent recovery rate.

According to the Government Accountability Office (GAO), the average cost for the recovery of an endangered species is $15.9 million. The average cost of a complete listing decision is $85,000.

The U. S. Fish and Wildlife Service has designated 97.8 million acres and 40,000 miles of coastal rivers and streams as “critical habitat” for 603 listed species. The cost of a single designation of critical habitat is $515,000.

In the past ten years, Congress has appropriated $1.4 billion to the U. S. Fish and Wildlife Service to conduct ESA activities including listing, consultation and recovery efforts and $174.3 million to the National Marine Fisheries Service to undertake ESA related activities.

In July 2011 the Interior Department agreed to a settlement that covered 779 species in 85 lawsuits and legal actions. Information obtained from agencies indicates that they have a combined total of over 180 pending ESA-related lawsuits.

According to the Washington Post, “In fiscal 2010, the Fish and Wildlife Service spent so much of its $21 million listing budget on litigation and responding to petitions that it had almost no money to devote to placing new species under federal protection, according to agency officials.”

naturalresources.house.gov


That all being said, and aside from sturgeon and their presence in nets. 

Mr. Weeks, you are carrying an old torch that pits rec interests vs. com interests. I'm also afraid you cling to the thought that the recreational impact to certain fisheries can never match that of the waterman. 

Litigants of the ESA want to keep us divided. Get rid of one first, then get rid of the other one next.


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## NC-Norm-WB (Jul 25, 2008)

Well said Weeks.


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## Drumdum (Jan 6, 2003)

jeffreyweeks said:


> Of course I know this...that's why I mentioned the "double-edged sword" in my article. I also know it really is a sad state of affairs when recs have to find their solace behind such "victories."
> 
> But where was all foresight all those many years that comms were shutting recs out of the fisheries game and depleting the resource as they saw fit, and crowing about it? I warned and I warned and I warned. But I (and many others) weren't listened to.
> 
> ...


 Can't blame enviros,with all the lawsuits they have cropped on not only the gov (nps,usfwl,ncdot) and whomever else they think they can sponge money off of?? They have been made powerful with the esa,and use it well with thier lobbiest,thier big contributors (that don't really realize what they are supporting because of the popaganda used),and the fact they can be paid and make money for a suite if they win.... 

One of their best strategies is to pit one against the other,it works and will continue to work as long as the bait is taken.. Cca and other groups will take this (sturgeon is endangered bait) and run with it.. After they have had thier way with the com,then enviros WILL set the hook... Mark my words..

Many of the comments you made about the com industry are true,and it needs to be controled,and our x senator (we won't go there)...  All that being said,control is not HAULTING com fishing,just so one selfish user group benefits... I am not pro-com,I have seen king mackeral numbers drop to nothing,big grey trout get desimated for pennies on the lb.. But to say recs have no resposibilty for the downfall of some species is kinda silly when I have witnessed coolers full to the top of 10" pups transported from a pier like spot,not just one time MANY TIMES when they had no regs on the size or numbers.. There are many other species the recs had a hand in as well,so they aren't the ones with the halo either...

I don't know what the answer is,and it seems ncdmf and noaa don't either,but pitting one user group against the other using the power of enviro groups most definatly is not the answer!! jmho


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## redhorse9902 (Jan 5, 2008)

just remember, If you put the commercial fisherman out of buisness , where's your bait gonna come from, the bait fairy??


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## Byron/pa (Mar 14, 2007)

> We have met the enemy and it is us.


 ...................Nooooooooooooooooooo, really? Ya think so?

A very good read.



> just remember, If you put the commercial fisherman out of buisness , where's your bait gonna come from, the bait fairy??


....................Uh, maybe there'd be some around to catch.

And we do have to stand united. But as a 99% catch and release angler, I can say there is a huge difference between what a REC and a COM harvests. Yes, there are many more RECS, and I just ran out of time.......................


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## Cdog (Mar 18, 2002)

Byron/pa said:


> ...................Nooooooooooooooooooo, really? Ya think so?
> 
> A very good read.
> 
> ...


Interesting you brought that up, was reading on another site that on avg Comms harvest 7 million pounds a year of striper, recs harvest between 20-30 million pounds..... Oooops gotta run...


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## DERFM (Jun 19, 2004)

> Oooops gotta run...


chicken chit lol


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## Cdog (Mar 18, 2002)

DERFM said:


> chicken chit lol


LOL, guess I need to work on my sarcasm...


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## LaidbackVA (May 17, 2007)

Commericals may only harvest 7 million pounds of stripers a year but how many do they kill getting that 7 million pounds. Look back to last year at the pictures of the stripers they killed so they could keep the big ones.


ron


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## Cdog (Mar 18, 2002)

LaidbackVA said:


> Commericals may only harvest 7 million pounds of stripers a year but how many do they kill getting that 7 million pounds. Look back to last year at the pictures of the stripers they killed so they could keep the big ones.
> 
> 
> ron


And how many recs take "one or two" more than they should....

Or take a look at how many rec boats were out on the ocean front this year with 4-6 guys keeping each limit legally...


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## Ryan Y (Dec 1, 2005)

I' ll have to look for the report for NC. However the striper issue is one that needs some explanation. The report only documents "sold" fish. Fish kills in NC got media attention last year due to kills near the coast and those are unreported in terms of harvest. Unfortunatly thats been going on for years. Recreationally, harvest estimates are unreliable at best. 
The SENC has a longer history of rejecting comercial fisheries as that lifestye for most down this way as most that did it have moved on. I understand the passion and livelyhood. Unfortunately (media has played a big role too) netters were documented many times with undersized and dead fish. I got to say too as ive seen it that i cant disagree. I think there can be some compomise though that wil be good for both sides.


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## drumchaser (Jan 14, 2003)

The nets will eventually be hung in the barns sooner than later. Hell, who would have thought ten years ago that a damn bird would shut Hatteras down. I always figured it would be a hurricane or some other natural disaster.


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## DERFM (Jun 19, 2004)

Cdog said:


> LOL, guess I need to work on my sarcasm...


naw , i know what ya meant .....opcorn:


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## JAM (Jul 22, 2002)

Byron/pa said:


> ...................Nooooooooooooooooooo, really? Ya think so?
> 
> A very good read.
> 
> ...


C&R has Mortality, one out of 3 Die after you release them in certain species. ALL Fishermen Need to get together to fight, I would not side with the SELC or DOW, no matter what the issue is. Instead of FISHERMEN Pointing Fingers at each other (exactly what they want) Point the fingers where they belong, TOTAL MIS_MANAMEMENT of Resource.. Did you know the decline is catchable fish (so they say) coinsides with the Mandate Change with NOAA and the DMF's.. Mandate used to be INCREASE THE POPULATIONS OF FISH FOR FOOD. Now its Conserve so OTHERS can see them... Total BS...

JAM


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## Garboman (Jul 22, 2010)

My closest Commercial Fishing Friend who was part of a Hatteras family that has lived in Rodanthe for 350 years, who was also my former Captain lost his life going out into the Pamlico to his nets during a March blow just to get a couple of Totes of Fatback for the Island tackle shops that sell to the Tourist Fishermen. He drowned just trying to fill an order from a Tackle shop owner wanting to keep the Tourists in Drum bait.

Next time you open a cooler looking for fresh bait outside of Franks or Dillon's or the Red Drum .............keep that in mind when you rant about Comms raping the resource...and just how and by whom that Fatback or Jumping Mullet ended up on ice....


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## dena (Jun 20, 2010)

I am generally no fan of the comms that pillage the giant schools of Bunker using planes as spotters. The little guy that follows the rules, trying to feed his family with the sweat of his brow. and skill aren't the problem when it comes to the overfishing of the stocks.
But in this instance, all of us fishermen have to stand as one. This ESA is the hammer that will be used to bang down all of us nails that stick up. If they can get the comms to toe the line, us 'good' citizens will present few problems for the authorities to get straight. After all, sturgeon can be caught by hook and line too. Dragging a multi-treble hooked lure, or a hook with bait might be the second easiest way to catch these giant fish. If they can shut the comms down us sporties are next.


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## Drumdum (Jan 6, 2003)

dena said:


> I am generally no fan of the comms that pillage the giant schools of Bunker using planes as spotters. The little guy that follows the rules, trying to feed his family with the sweat of his brow. and skill aren't the problem when it comes to the overfishing of the stocks.
> But in this instance, all of us fishermen have to stand as one. This ESA is the hammer that will be used to bang down all of us nails that stick up. If they can get the comms to toe the line, us 'good' citizens will present few problems for the authorities to get straight. After all, sturgeon can be caught by hook and line too. Dragging a multi-treble hooked lure, or a hook with bait might be the second easiest way to catch these giant fish. If they can shut the comms down us sporties are next.


 Exactly what I've been trying to say,but cca and others will continue on the path of teaming up with the same monsters (very smart and slick monsters at that) that want ALL fisherman GONE,and that ain't just coms trust me on that.......


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## dena (Jun 20, 2010)

Drumdum said:


> Exactly what I've been trying to say,but cca and others will continue on the path of teaming up with the same monsters (very smart and slick monsters at that) that want ALL fisherman GONE,and that ain't just coms trust me on that.......


Not to make this too political, but this is why elections are important.
Everybody from the Judge, to the head of the EPA are politically associated. The people we elect are responsible for the appointees that run these Federal agencys. If we elect folks that value the life of a bird over the needs of the general public, then we get what we voted for. Sometimes, before we pull the lever, even for a local councilman, or State Rep, we need to educate ourselves on how these folks think about other issues that really matter in our day to day lives.


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## Drumdum (Jan 6, 2003)

dena said:


> Not to make this too political, but this is why elections are important.
> Everybody from the Judge, to the head of the EPA are politically associated. The people we elect are responsible for the appointees that run these Federal agencys. If we elect folks that value the life of a bird over the needs of the general public, then we get what we voted for. Sometimes, before we pull the lever, even for a local councilman, or State Rep, we need to educate ourselves on how these folks think about other issues that really matter in our day to day lives.




Lately the board has become political,although with the things that have been dumped on our table here in Hatty,and the same things WILL BE dumped south of us at Cape Lookout,checking out our elected officials for how they sit on these issues before we pull the lever is important stuff,in my view... Problem with any politition rep or dem, is they smile from both sides,and manytimes will side with the flavor of the day... Weeding those out will be difficult...


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## Alexy (Nov 1, 2010)

I say let the comms fish. hook and line like everyone else. When they hit the 480480 lbs shut it down.


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## JAM (Jul 22, 2002)

Just shut down the Dredge in Hatteras cause a Sturgeon was seen in the area, again public safety is taking a back seat to lawyers out for cash... The ESA and ENVIRO-MENTAL Lawyers are bags of ****... It needs repealed, and they need BEAT TOO DEATH with a Blunt Object...

JAM..


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## sand flea (Oct 24, 1999)

There are two types of Comms: the little guy setting nets (or up North, doing hook-and-line fishing) and the massive corporate operations with spotter planes paying their staff minimum wage and pillaging the ocean. The first group are our friends. They stock our tackle shops with bait and keep an old tradition alive without doing a ton of damage. But the massive commercial operations...they're doing nothing but strip-mining the ocean.

Clay has a good point about what the Recs do, though. We take a lot of fish out of that ocean. Is it really necessary to drag all those fish back to the dock just for a picture? There's a lot more pride in sharing a picture of a fish swimming away than a pile of filets in a cooler.


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## KB Spot Chaser (Nov 19, 2009)

sand flea said:


> There are two types of Comms: the little guy setting nets (or up North, doing hook-and-line fishing) and the massive corporate operations with spotter planes paying their staff minimum wage and pillaging the ocean. The first group are our friends. They stock our tackle shops with bait and keep an old tradition alive without doing a ton of damage. But the massive commercial operations...they're doing nothing but strip-mining the ocean.
> 
> Clay has a good point about what the Recs do, though. We take a lot of fish out of that ocean. Is it really necessary to drag all those fish back to the dock just for a picture? There's a lot more pride in sharing a picture of a fish swimming away than a pile of filets in a cooler.


 I like your thinking, keep up the good job.


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## CJS (Oct 2, 2006)

sand flea said:


> There are two types of Comms: the little guy setting nets (or up North, doing hook-and-line fishing) and the massive corporate operations with spotter planes paying their staff minimum wage and pillaging the ocean. The first group are our friends. They stock our tackle shops with bait and keep an old tradition alive without doing a ton of damage. But the massive commercial operations...they're doing nothing but strip-mining the ocean.
> 
> Clay has a good point about what the Recs do, though. We take a lot of fish out of that ocean. Is it really necessary to drag all those fish back to the dock just for a picture? There's a lot more pride in sharing a picture of a fish swimming away than a pile of filets in a cooler.


Unfortunately the environmental groups will target the little guys and their methods first. They make the easier target. 

Costs too much money to fight a big outfit that is lining the pockets of politicians. Easy to wipe out the little guy and claim victory for the cause on your website even if the victory is ecologically insignificant and destroys someone's livelihood.


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## JAM (Jul 22, 2002)

*BRAVO Well Said Flea standing and clapping... someone gets it...*



sand flea said:


> There are two types of Comms: the little guy setting nets (or up North, doing hook-and-line fishing) and the massive corporate operations with spotter planes paying their staff minimum wage and pillaging the ocean. The first group are our friends. They stock our tackle shops with bait and keep an old tradition alive without doing a ton of damage. But the massive commercial operations...they're doing nothing but strip-mining the ocean.
> 
> Clay has a good point about what the Recs do, though. We take a lot of fish out of that ocean. Is it really necessary to drag all those fish back to the dock just for a picture? There's a lot more pride in sharing a picture of a fish swimming away than a pile of filets in a cooler.


With that said and I whole heartedly agree, now we need to mend the fences, between rec and the ma and pa comm operations, join together and fight for what is ours. The whole plan is to pick the cherry off then force everyone out of business, then WELCOME Catch Shares... Where you will have the Coperatization Of Fishing, more Spotter Planes, Bigger Boats, and Dumber Captains... We can fix this thing but the CCA ain't the way.... Common Sense is.. 

JAM


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## JAM (Jul 22, 2002)

Sure the ESA can list it as endangered but that would only shut fed waters outside of 3 miles... NC ain't givin up its nets...And we net close to the beach so we would be in state waters... Carolina as a State will not stand for that.. Look at the Fed Shark Plan to see what I am talking about, NC don't follow that at all and have had their own plan in place since way back writen by a friend of mines DAD... Out before the fed plan.. The States do have rights, they just don't have balls, I guess we will see how big NC balls are soon..

JAM


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## CarvedTones (Mar 6, 2012)

sand flea said:


> Clay has a good point about what the Recs do, though. We take a lot of fish out of that ocean. Is it really necessary to drag all those fish back to the dock just for a picture? There's a lot more pride in sharing a picture of a fish swimming away than a pile of filets in a cooler.


Two entirely different things. I agree that dragging fish back to the dock just for a picture is bad. But filets in a cooler? If it's a fish in good supply and they will get eaten, I have absolutely no problem with that. I eat a lot of seafood and I have pride in harvesting my own sometimes. Also, depending on methods used and species' hardiness, the mortality rate of released fish can be quite high. If you intend to release all the fish you catch, you probably should not use bait.


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## sand flea (Oct 24, 1999)

Definitely not against keeping fish. I do it all the time. I'm just saying that the whack-em-and-stack-em mentality a lot of guys have isn't good for the fishery. When everyone limits out on every single trip just for the photo, well, that's how we recreationals collectively end up decimating a fishery. Go stand at the docks in Va. Beach or Oregon Inlet some winter day as the fleet comes back in--it's doing a lot of damage to the fish preparing to come up the Chesapeake for the spawn. I'd like nothing more than to see commercial culling banned, but we're part of the problem too. Both sides need to be mindful of what we're doing. Keep a few, let a few go.


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## narfpoit (Jun 16, 2004)

If keeping a limit of fish is bad for the fishery then its the limit that is the problem not the fishermen catching them. I will keep every limit I am allowed not just for some picture but because I love to eat them and cook them for my friends and family. But also will never keep an illegal fish be it length or limit. I have released more stripers this winter for being 1/2 short than you can imagine and my friends all think I am crazy but that is how I roll. If you don't like the rules or limits try and change them if you see some one violating the rules report them cause they are stealing from you. And I am all for being able to by fresh fish at the store, my brother manages a fish market, but throwing back dead fish to go catch bigger fish should get your licensed revoked permanently.


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## dena (Jun 20, 2010)

Instead allowing ourselves to be painted as anti-environment because we want to use the natural resources.
We should be pro-recreation, or pro-something else someone more creative can come up with. Kind of like the pro-life, and pro-choice are both pro something, but on opposite sides of the fence ideologically.
We get painted as anti-environment because we don't think what a bird, fish or bug might do should have much of an effect on a persons daily activities.
Perception wins the day, even when the facts are on your side, you can still be painted as a bad guy if you allow it.
It is tough for a politician to get behind a group of people if they are painted as anti-anything, especially a reactive word like environment. Folks immediately visualize smoke stacks and dirty water. 
Ultimately it will come down to a popularity contest. If we can make the average Joe in Iowa realize that he isn't able to use the same places the same way because of some bird might drop an egg in some sand dune, he might get riled up about an closure in his neck of the woods. Enough Joes, and we might have something. Without the right message we lose before we start.


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## JAM (Jul 22, 2002)

How about Pro-Freedom, Pro Constitution, Pro-Our Civil Rights. Pro-Sick-of-Getting-F'd-by the Gov.

I am Reading Green Gone Wild By M. David Stirling, 75 pages into it and Hatteras Island is not this enviro-MENTALS first rodeo....Thye have won everywhere they have taken over. In the end, it will become physical, you watch... 

A little word to the wise for thise with Permits, take a little 3 inch piece of aluminum foil and tape it with clear tape directly behind the BAR Code on the inside of your windshield behind the Permit... Just so it covers the whole bar code from behind. That will throw their bar code scanners that have been installed at every ramp... Cheers...

JAM


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