# Scusa Legal?



## Tacpayne (Dec 20, 2008)

Are the TG's Rocket spools legal in Sportcast tournements? Just curious, thought about trying one, but dont want to waste my time on something that I can throw in a Tournement


----------



## Hudak (Sep 10, 2007)

Tisk Tisk, you have seen in the rules where it has to be a factory spool.

Robert


----------



## Tacpayne (Dec 20, 2008)

thekingfeeder said:


> Tisk Tisk, you have seen in the rules where it has to be a factory spool.
> 
> Robert


I know just making sure is all, gotta cross all my i's and dot my T's you know, oh wait I screwed that up to


----------



## Robert Sales (Feb 27, 2008)

*no*

Right now these spools are not allowed in SCUSA tournaments.
Bob

CONVENTIONAL TACKLE
Rod: There shall be no restriction upon length or on the material used in its construction. 
Reel: Must be able to be used for fishing, but must have a standard factory manufactured spool.


----------



## Kwesi W. (Apr 14, 2006)

Not trying to piss anyone off but......

Where in the rules does it say ABU Garcia factory spool? I believe TG has a factory, and therefore the reel is a factory spool. I understand why the rule is there, but there is a grey area that may need to be addressed. Without the rule what would stop Willie Longcaster from creating a ultra light spool, and casting 900ft.. LOL


----------



## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

kmw21230 said:


> Not trying to piss anyone off but......
> 
> Where in the rules does it say ABU Garcia factory spool? I believe TG has a factory, and therefore the reel is a factory spool. I understand why the rule is there, but there is a grey area that may need to be addressed. Without the rule what would stop Willie Longcaster from creating a ultra light spool, and casting 900ft.. LOL



Obviously we couldn't require an "Abu Garcia" spool-- that would mean we "require the use of an Abu reel" -- we don't, you can use penn, Daiwa or any manufacturer of a reel you choose.

The term standard factory manufactured spool is used to indicate the standard one made by the reel company. Even if you allowed for after market spools, they would have to meet the "standards" of the factory spool-- including weight, materials, size , shape,dimensions, etc.

This issue was already addressed on the SCUSA board-- where it belongs.


----------



## Hudak (Sep 10, 2007)

Sometimes you have to use common sense and ask when in doubt just like Chuck did. I was ribbing him at the same time I sent him a link to where this specific question was addressed already.

If you read all the rules and try to find the grey areas, the rules will look like a contract used to merge with a fortune 500 company. No one wants that. Just read the rules for what they say and don't try to figure out what they don't say.

Robert


----------



## Kwesi W. (Apr 14, 2006)

When in a competition were feet (sometimes inches) make all the different people naturally will look for a way to (legally) get the upper hand. So Im glad the question came up, and as far as Commom Sense being used.... Sometimes common sense is not all that common... LOL Seriously, with advances in reel technology sometimes the (our) rules will have to be amended to refect more current issues.. Having rules that stay fair but progessive is a good thing in my opinion.


----------



## Tacpayne (Dec 20, 2008)

New question, how much can a light spool help? If we can only control so much speed and need mags to control it how much can it help? If the light spool helps start up speed we would still have to set out mags to keep it from blowing up. Maybe we have to set them at 1.5 turns off instead of 1.25? Isnt it really 6 one way and a half dozen another?Not sure I can explain my thoughts clearly, but hopefully someone will chime in that understands what I am saying.


----------



## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

My undestanding of the thought behind the lighter spool is this.

Less mass requires less energy to get the spool up to speed and also creates less of a "flywheel" effect making it easier to control once at speed. 

I have thrown about 1/2 dozen casts with mine and so far no real, measureable increase in distance. I will probably just take it out before my next practice since it is not legal for tournament use.

The rules are the rules.

Tommy


----------



## Tacpayne (Dec 20, 2008)

Tommy said:


> My undestanding of the thought behind the lighter spool is this.
> 
> Less mass requires less energy to get the spool up to speed and also creates less of a "flywheel" effect making it easier to control once at speed.
> 
> ...


I understand the rules and am not questioning them. Im just trying to understand what advantage it would give, other than a mental one. The more I cast the less I believe it has to do with equipment. If I had your casting ability I would probably be splitting hairs over things, but at my level the only thing that really matters is technique, I personally believe. My thought process tells me not matter how much faster it starts or how much lighter it is it still has to be controlled. It will still be controlled with the same measures we use now, so can there really be an advantage to using it?Im really thinking out loud in my new search for distance. I believe when I get over 700' I will be thinking more about these things, but right now I am focused on my casting fundamentals, not my equipment. Dont get me wrong, my equipment is good and will out perform me on every cast.


----------



## danville (Feb 21, 2004)

Let me try to exp.
spool weighing 19gr compared to a spool weighing 12gr.
Is like throwing a slosh 30 to a 6500 rocket
same power,lighter spool faster to turn up,less mag to control. [ More distance ]
heavy spool slow to turn up,more mag to control. [ Less distance ]

willie


----------



## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

Think about it as a transfer of energy. 

You are effectively transfering energy from your body to the rod which is transfering that energy to the shockleader and sinker. All of that energy has to be harnessed by the thumb. When released, the sinker tows (losing energy as the spool comes up to speed) the spool into a fast accelerateration to (some say) 20,000 rpm or more. Once the sinker hits top speed the spool wants to keep accelerating. At this point you are counting on your braking (mags, blocks, oil) to slow the spool to match the speed of line leaving the reel.

A heavier spool will require more energy to get up to speed and more braking to keep it from overspeeding. Both of these energy losses will decrease distance. 

Does this make sense??

or....... what Willie said...lol

Tommy


----------



## Tacpayne (Dec 20, 2008)

Both of these make sense, but for me I really dont think it would matter. Honestly I dont think it would matter for the majority of the casters out there, but that is just my opinion. I dont think that my cast, and distance will be influenced as much as a top level caster, maybe since my form lacks it would make more of a difference. OH my head is starting to hurt, I have to stop this thinking thing that is going on


----------



## danville (Feb 21, 2004)

IF you cast a slosh as far as a 6500 it don't make no dif.
willie


----------



## Hudak (Sep 10, 2007)

I can cast a 6500 as far as I can cast a SLOSH.

Robert


----------



## Hooked Up (Feb 6, 2009)

ive got one or two for a 5500 if u wanna test drive it willie..ill drop in mail


----------



## Led (Feb 1, 2001)

Q - Has anyone weighed the various 65/5500 spools ?

I have a number of various colours (black/red/gold/silver) with various arbour/bearing setups that could give +/- effects to casting.

So are the SCUSA rules specific to each ABU reel and what spool they came with as standard ? (i.e. UltraMagXLII - black spool 4x10x3 18mm arbour)

Just a thought 

What about the classic style 6600W on a Benfield/QTC conversion - that was never a std spool for that reel, only for a 6600 Pro/Black Max.


----------



## bstarling (Apr 24, 2005)

*Standard?*

I suppose the term "standard" is assumed to mean an unmodified spool from the factory responsible for the manufacture of the reel in question. I guess that would let out reworking a factory "standard" spool by drilling or anything else. Am I correct? 

Bill:fishing:


----------



## Hudak (Sep 10, 2007)

I was under the impression that any OEM spool could be used as long as it is from the same company your reel started off life as.

Robert


----------



## BlaineO (Jan 22, 2001)

For the sake of discussion, let's say a 5500 spool full of line and 2' of shock weighs 50 grams.
The lightweight spool weighs 6 grams less, so the weight savings is approximately 12%.

Now you have thinner spool sides, so if you using a mag control, more mag force will have to be used to achieve the same amount of control, not less mag force. The sides are thinner, and the spool will be spinning faster due to the lighter weight having to be overcome at the beginning of the cast. This makes it really easy to over brake the reel with mags and kill the cast early.

Obviously, brake blocks and oil are less affected by the thinner spool sides.

It also makes for a temperamental setup that is possible to improve on distance, with precise timing backing off the mags, or to make a beautiful backlash/break off for all to behold. 

In the past I have found it to be quite educational, I managed to reacquaint myself with words sailors would be embarrassed to hear, on multiple occasions. 

Blaine


----------



## Tacpayne (Dec 20, 2008)

Is it just me or is all this stuff confusing? Nah must be jsut me, the rest of you have to know whats going on, especially since no one agrees with each other. I can agree with Robert though, I can cast my 6500 as far as my slosh also


----------



## bstarling (Apr 24, 2005)

Tacpayne said:


> Is it just me or is all this stuff confusing? Nah must be jsut me, the rest of you have to know whats going on, especially since no one agrees with each other. I can agree with Robert though, I can cast my 6500 as far as my slosh also


Naaa! Chuck, I'm somewhat confused as well. I know that ABU has a whiffle spool with a drilled arbor, but the arbor is large diameter and thus wouldn't hold as much line. I was thinking about cross drilling the spindle and possibly end plates of the "standard" spool. I guess that is out or is it? Bearings are an integral component of the spool, but who has factory bearings in their reel? 

Inquiring minds want to know

Bill:fishing:


----------



## billr87 (Jan 13, 2008)

i think this should be dropped and find something else to beat to death.

just my opinion.


----------



## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

billr87 said:


> i think this should be dropped and find something else to beat to death.
> 
> just my opinion.



While I agree-- at some point the issue will have to be addressed-- particularly as it may come into play next year, during the planned international event. Until/unless the rule is modified, we will need to continue to use the standard spools.



> I was thinking about cross drilling the spindle and possibly end plates of the "standard" spool. I guess that is out or is it?


My understanding that this type of modification-- drilling the spool-- is not legal, as is sanding,machinging, or otherwise removing material to change the weight characteristics.


Theoretically, I don't think you would see a huge difference in the heavier weights. The biggest advantage might be in the lighter weights (100 gr) as this sinkers mass ratio (spool weight compared to sinker weight) means the lighter sinker is quickly robbed of a larger proportion of it's intital velocity-- as it will lose more energy in getting the spool up to speed- as compared to a heavier sinker.

For now-- I don't think any of us want to have to show up at tournies and strip our spools down to be weighed and certified as "tourny" legal-- so let's just leave the after market spools off the field for now. 

Nothing wrong with owning and experimenting with them if you choose during your own practice sessions, if you are simply curious-- but you could be tossing away money for a spool that can't be used during tournaments-- so keep that in mind.


----------



## kingfisherman23 (Dec 14, 2003)

Well then along the same lines:

What about the gold whiffle spools found on the blue 5600 and 6600? Are these then legal for tournament use, considering they are stock factory-produced Abu spools?

Evan


----------



## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

kingfisherman23 said:


> Well then along the same lines:
> 
> What about the gold whiffle spools found on the blue 5600 and 6600? Are these then legal for tournament use, considering they are stock factory-produced Abu spools?
> 
> Evan


In my opinion, it sounds like they fit the definition and would be ok, but that is not my call to make.

For any questions pertaining to the rules- I would post such questions on the SCUSA board, or contact Bob directly thru e-mail or a phone call, or bring it up at a tournament.


----------



## Tacpayne (Dec 20, 2008)

I apparently stirred up something here unintentionally. I did not even know that SCUSA had a board until a few days ago. I signed up then and now am able to post on there. I will keep all questions regarding SCUSA rule on that board from now on. One thing I want to point out to some people though, is that there are a lot of people out there like me, New to the sport. We have questions some have been asked over and over again. Some apparently will bring up some type of controversy. But the person posting doesnt know that they hit a nerve or touched on something that pissed someone off previously. IF you guys really want this sport to grow, just dropping something or coming off with attitudes will not let growth take place. This message is not directed torwards anyone in this thread in particular, actually at all. I have been reading everything I can about distance casting the past few weeks and there have been several instances where some old bad feelings were brought out. I dont give two craps what happened to piss someone off a few years ago. It didnt happen to me and I dont care. Sometimes some people need to learn that not everyone has been at this as long as they have.


----------



## Orest (Jul 28, 2003)

*Is polishing the spool*

shaft legal?


----------



## chris storrs (Aug 25, 2005)

dont believe there are any restrictions on the shaft, atleast hope not...

5500 wiffle spool wouldnt hold enough line to be of any worh..anly bout 150 yds of 10 if i remember right...used to spool mine with 10 lb mono throwin to spanish with a stingsilver on a 8' rod

never seen a 6xxx wiffle spool..but might be worth a shot with .28


----------



## Tacpayne (Dec 20, 2008)

chris storrs said:


> dont believe there are any restrictions on the shaft, atleast hope not...
> 
> 5500 wiffle spool wouldnt hold enough line to be of any worh..anly bout 150 yds of 10 if i remember right...used to spool mine with 10 lb mono throwin to spanish with a stingsilver on a 8' rod
> 
> never seen a 6xxx wiffle spool..but might be worth a shot with .28


It'll hold enough line for Evan LOL


----------



## kingfisherman23 (Dec 14, 2003)

Tacpayne said:


> It'll hold enough line for Evan LOL




Not for long, buddy. You just keep workin in the field. I'm back on track now and ready to rock.

Evan


----------



## Big Dave (Jan 22, 2001)

Not really trying to stir the pot, but I agree with Led's comments. 

Lets see
un-restricted rod, rod length, rod type, material used, guides, tips. 
lots not forget that some benefit from custom only rods not necessarily available to every person. 

Reels 
Wow were to begin

frame replacements, custom side plates 
mix and match custom parts to create reels like a 5500CTC3 
Custom commercially available conversions, bayonets, etc

bearings from stock to over the top full ceramic 

A QTC frame with a benfield bayonet, total ceramics, a custom QTC shaft with a 6600W spool is only a reel that can be made from custom parts. Not much factory about that one. But I can see where the spool keeps it everything on a level playing field. 

I dont think for a minute that everyone involved in SC does not understand and embrace the spirit of the rule. But I have to admit its my opinion that it gets lost when I sit back and look at the types of reels used to compete today. Far cry from 20 years ago with a missing level wind, no brake blocks and STP on the shaft. or just a reworked ultra mag with all the stock parts still used except the levelwind. if someone were to manufacture a spool that was good to go right out of the tube I think it would be good for the sport IMHO

Cheers All 
Great thread
Big Dave


----------



## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

Big Dave-- most excellent post-- I agree 100 %. 

As long as we are talking commercially available spools, I don't see that as breaking the "intent" of the rule. It will need to be discussed further.


Let's face it-- the most souped up reel in the world isn't going to help without putting in the time and dedication needed to improve casting technique-- period...


----------



## Kwesi W. (Apr 14, 2006)

Mark G said:


> Big Dave-- most excellent post-- I agree 100 %.
> 
> As long as we are talking commercially available spools, I don't see that as breaking the "intent" of the rule. It will need to be discussed further.
> 
> ...


----------



## Kwesi W. (Apr 14, 2006)

I can't speak for everyone but for me 50% of the joy in casting is being able to build a reel, and have it perform (well) at a tournament. I understand why the rule was created, but with the internet and other resources we are playing on a more level field than ever before. You have a Man like Big Danny that has said he builds his own part for his reel, so why not us. I'm not a machinist by trade but I would like to be able to tinker around in my basement trying to get an edge.

Some of us say you can't buy distance.. Maybe not, but maybe we can build it! LOL


----------



## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

I think the point Big Dave was making is valid-- with all the other upgrades available for reels, people are already spending some hefty dollars on reel upgrade equipment.



The problem with allowing people to machine their own parts, versus purchasing commercially available units-- is obvious -- it boils down to one of access. If I have a brother or friend who "happens" to be a machinist for Boeing, NASA, etc, then I may have access to some ultra sophisticated equipment that others don't have.

Keep in mind-- the rule was written before the advent of the now commercially available after market units-- so they weren't considered as part of the equation.


----------



## Hudak (Sep 10, 2007)

Mark G said:


> If I have a brother or friend who "happens" to be a machinist for Boeing, NASA, etc, then I may have access to some ultra sophisticated equipment that others don't have.


Do ya, Do ya, well do ya? PM, I don't want others to know. I have a levelwind that needs to be milled.

Robert


----------



## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

thekingfeeder said:


> Do ya, Do ya, well do ya? PM, I don't want others to know. I have a levelwind that needs to be milled.
> 
> Robert


That's funny now  

THe answer is no.. I do however own a lathe ( 2 for that matter-- unfortunately they are for wood turning-- anyone interested in a one of a kind wooden spool ??? .. LOL), far from "sophisticated" tho. ,with my lame skills I'd be moving backwards, in terms of technology.

--- for those interested they should take a look at the new thread post on the SCUSA board-- distance casting forum entitled "reel rule"

That should put everyone at ease on the subject.


----------



## Tacpayne (Dec 20, 2008)

Mark G said:


> --- for those interested they should take a look at the new thread post on the SCUSA board-- distance casting forum entitled "reel rule"
> 
> That should put everyone at ease on the subject.


That was quick, and the way it should be handled Good job Bob, let the members decide, still wont help my distance any though


----------



## Led (Feb 1, 2001)

Lets face it without some control we could end up seeing more of these on the field 









Blue & Green one


----------



## Hudak (Sep 10, 2007)

Led said:


> Blue & Green one


Ya, I believe those stuck out pretty good. Although, curiosity is peaked about them....

Robert


----------



## Don B (Jul 28, 2001)

Hawaiian style tournament casting reel (80# class)










With standard graphite spool​


----------



## Tacpayne (Dec 20, 2008)

Now thats waht Im talking about Don, talk about leveling teh playing field. I would love to see you do your power cast of a reel that size in Shallotte that I have heard about.


----------



## Mater Man (May 10, 2009)

Mark G said:


> While I agree-- at some point the issue will have to be addressed-- particularly as it may come into play next year, during the planned international event. Until/unless the rule is modified, we will need to continue to use the standard spools.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry to beat a dead horse, But does this mean you could not remove ANY material from a standard stock spool while trying to balance it. (And Yes I do some what understand the harmonics thingie with the line stack/wrap) But that's not what I'm after right now.


----------



## bstarling (Apr 24, 2005)

Don B said:


> Hawaiian style tournament casting reel (80# class)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Don, What sort of distances do you get with those. I have thrown a 113 HLW for shark and get fair distances. On the field I've gotten maybe 400 feet on a lucky day with 8 oz, but that is all this old man has to give it. 

Bill:fishing:


----------



## Don B (Jul 28, 2001)

Hi Bill,

"but that is all this old man has to give it. "

Well, this old man is on Medicare!

I've never tried casting a 646 for distance. I have done some demonstration pendulum casting with a Penn 114HLW, 80# line & 10 ounce sinker. The typical cast was slightly better than 105 yards. I was using a Cono-flex Makoi Extreme. At 14' 4", the rod was a little long to effectively cast this size equipment. Although the rod was certainly powerful enough, my body doesn't have the strength. 

For demonstration casting, I have used a water bottle filled with foam and tipped with a 10 ounce sinker. It provides a nice visual effect.

My best cast with 40# mono and a 7 ounce sinker was 170 yards. That's not far by Hawaii standards. I can't remember if it was with a Daiwa or Newell reel.

This brings us back to the core of this thread. When tournaments were held in Hawaii, it was based around the fishing equipment in use. This was 40, 60 & 80# mono line. The reels were JigMaster, 4/0 & 6/0 reels. The line had to meet minimum specifications. Since sinkers varied according to fishing conditions, there were no specified sinkers required. Use what you needed to achieve maximum distance for the line you were using. When you registered for a tournament, you were required to list the reel(s) manufacturer and model. A board would determine if the reels were suitable. Later, the requirement was dropped to use specified reels. The categories became line size only. Tournaments ended in Hawaii some time ago. This was primarily due to the lack of competition. It was mentioned that the same people won all the tournaments. Let's hope the spirit of competition and camaraderie remains alive and well on the mainland.

Forgot to mention, the Newell 454 & 546 reels are equivalent in size to the Penn 113HLW.

Don


----------



## Don B (Jul 28, 2001)

Tacpayne said:


> Now thats waht Im talking about Don, talk about leveling teh playing field. I would love to see you do your power cast of a reel that size in Shallotte that I have heard about.


Sorry to say, it will be a while before being able to cast larger size fishing equipment. I suffered a herniated disc in my neck a couple of years ago and the recovery is slow. 

Casting larger equipment isn't much different than smaller equipment. It just takes a little longer to come around with the cast. Of course, stopping a large spool that is being drawn by a big sinker can burn a lot of flesh.

Don


----------



## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

MaterMAn said:


> Sorry to beat a dead horse, But does this mean you could not remove ANY material from a standard stock spool while trying to balance it. (And Yes I do some what understand the harmonics thingie with the line stack/wrap) But that's not what I'm after right now.


That is how it has been explained to me-- You are not suppose to sand down a high spot, or remove any material-- but you can *add* weight, bits of tape or other material to other wise try to balance it.


----------



## bstarling (Apr 24, 2005)

*Don, I can feel your pain...........*

From one old guy to another I can feel your pain when you said "I suffered a herniated disc in my neck a couple of years ago and the recovery is slow. " Mine is cervical stenosis and worn out disc. It doesn't help casting one little bit, but doesn't keep me from trying, most of the time. If I had a better retirement check coming in I'd like to get over your way and catch an Ulua. I would guess they are like Amberjack on steroids!

Take care, 

Bill:fishing:


----------



## Orest (Jul 28, 2003)

*I think it all boils down to*

this. 

The day I win a casting tourney. I rather walk away knowing my skills won the tourney and not my bank roll.


----------



## Kwesi W. (Apr 14, 2006)

Orest are you thinking about taking up distance casting? If so you can meet with us every weekend..


----------



## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

Orest said:


> this.
> 
> The day I win a casting tourney. I rather walk away knowing my skills won the tourney and not my bank roll.


After laying down money for a Zziplex or Century rod and a nice tournament reel it would be hard for a TG's spool to be considered a bankroll...lol

Technique, power and timing are what win the tournaments. Those things come from practice, practice, practice.

Tommy


----------



## Orest (Jul 28, 2003)

*I did it once*



kmw21230 said:


> Orest are you thinking about taking up distance casting? If so you can meet with us every weekend..


at the 2004 National in Crisfield, MD. 

430 feet with my Tica spinning rod and an Okuma CD90 spinning reel.

With the OTG cast I learned from Neil and James, one Saturday in Delaware at the rifle range complex.

Was only getting about 375 with my Okuma Solaris rod. 

Would like to try it again if I ever get out from under this extra house I been paying for the last few years. Most of my free time is spent getting it ready to sell.

Now that I have a Penn 525 mag. I need to get a little better rod for casting.
I have a couple of BPS OM heavy and lite; the OM lite cast pretty nice.


----------



## curtisb (Jul 21, 2004)

I will agree with Tommy that it takes alot of practice but with out good tournament equipment you are only getting part of the equation. The better you get you should get better equipment. Just look at some of us and we are constantly trying new rods and reels.


----------



## gilly21 (Feb 15, 2006)

thekingfeeder said:


> I was ribbing him at the same time I sent him a link to where this specific question was addressed already.
> 
> 
> Robert


No one should ever pass on the oppertunity to do some ribbing on Chuck. Good job!


----------



## Tacpayne (Dec 20, 2008)

gilly21 said:


> No one should ever pass on the oppertunity to do some ribbing on Chuck. Good job!


With friends like these LOL


----------



## Hudak (Sep 10, 2007)

Robert


----------

