# Reverse first guide?



## RWalleySA

I had a sweet rod built for me I was wondering how many of you guys have seen the reverse first guide? I hear it helps for the long casters..


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## sunburntspike

called a "stripper" guide,it does help on the longer rods to kinda feed the line off the reel and allow the shock knot thru


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## skunk king

but how is the reverse position any different from the normal? The guide should still be 90% straight up on the blank. The only benefit I can see is the stripper guide could better absorb the impact of the knot, but I don't have an issue with frames bending and so don't have a need to do this. Any other benefits that I'm missing? I have seen this more with the low riders and maybe they're not as strong?


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## sunburntspike

skunk i'm not totally sold on this configuration,have it on my custom ugly sticks but no other rod,so it may be a benifit or not ,i've truly never noticed


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## surf fisher

I usethis on the lowridders. as they have the long feet and if turned around less likely to get pulled on in the cast.


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## mbg60

If you cast knots, a reversed guide prevents the knot from hanging up in the "V" area where the guide leg meets the guide ring. This applies to the "SVSG" series of guides.


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## RWalleySA

hmm how would it hang up? really big knot?


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## OffshoreManiac1

I do this alot on my short 400-600g jigging rods. Reversing the first guide helps keep the line off you forgrip under heavy loads. When you reverse it your adding a little more height which keeps the line off the rest of the guides and the blank for more power.The extra height also keeps the line from slapping or touching so it flows evenly through the guides. It has a bunch of good reasons, never bad. it also looks bitchin, even more when you acid wrap.


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## Mark G

RWalleySA said:


> I had a sweet rod built for me I was wondering how many of you guys have seen the reverse first guide? I hear it helps for the long casters..



It was sort of the "thing" to do for a few years (reversing the first guide).

I can honestly say I have never seen it done on a tournament caster's rod. I do have one or two fishing rods where the stripper guide is reversed, but the majority of mine do not, and I have yet to notice a difference one way or the other.

The guide style may make a difference, I use standard alconites for the most part (BMNAG or CMNAG). Doesn't seem to matter with those.


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## plotalot

I remember reading somewhere that the only reason to mount the stripper guide backwards was to prevent the line from knotting itself on the guide.


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## Mark G

plotalot said:


> I remember reading somewhere that the only reason to mount the stripper guide backwards was to prevent the line from knotting itself on the guide.


That's the "theory". I think it helps with low rider guides, other than that I doubt it plays a significant role-- I have never-- never hung a knot on conventional gear at the stripper guide,reversed or otherwise.


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## plotalot

Mark G said:


> That's the "theory". I think it helps with low rider guides, other than that I doubt it plays a significant role-- I have never-- never hung a knot on conventional gear at the stripper guide,reversed or otherwise.


I think it is a spinning gear issue, regardless the knot over the guide issue is a phantom issue to me as well. Just like people complaining about a bail closing on a spinning reel and losing an expensive lure. That is a talent I don't have and don't care to learn. If turning around a guide is an answer to a problem then I would work at eliminating that problem rather than just eliminating further damage.


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## Hudak

Mark G said:


> I can honestly say I have never seen it done on a tournament caster's rod.


Take a look at my rod next time. I have it reversed simply for peace of mind. When on the field, you know how the wind will blow the line. I feel more comfortable with the line just touching the ring going through the guide, as opposed to taking a chance of the line getting fouled in the frame as it is trying to come around the guide to go through the ring. Fishing, I personally wouldn't worry with it and spend a little extra time playing with guide layout if it is a concern for any reason. 7.5-8 seconds of time and the line blowing below the blank on occasion coming into the stripper at a weird angle, in the field, concerns me. I would hate for the remote chance of it getting caught up even once, but of course, like I have mentioned, that is just for the field.


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## Hooked Up

hell i was thinkin most all tourney rods was


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## OffshoreManiac1

http://www.tristatefishing.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=229&p=1360#p1360
here is a reverse fuji lowrider. its obvious it sits higher then the rest of the guides. If reversing was just for knots I wouldn't be doing it. It has other purposes like preventing line from burying in the forgrip under heavy loads, It also helps the line flow straight through the remaining guides without touching for a farther, smoother cast. When the line flows smoother it doesn't bury which take more stress off your reel and lets the rod do its job.


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## Tacpayne

OffshoreManiac1 said:


> http://www.tristatefishing.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=229&p=1360#p1360
> here is a reverse fuji lowrider. its obvious it sits higher then the rest of the guides. If reversing was just for knots I wouldn't be doing it. It has other purposes like preventing line from burying in the forgrip under heavy loads, It also helps the line flow straight through the remaining guides without touching for a farther, smoother cast. When the line flows smoother it doesn't bury which take more stress off your reel and lets the rod do its job.


Lowriders are another animal on their own, the first guide on a lowrider system was designed by fuji to be reversed. I dont in any way understand how turning a guide around backwards can make it any taller though. It is the same hight no matter which direction it is in. On a low rider it has a purpose, on all other guides it is strickly for a look.


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## Tacpayne

The more I read the posts in here the more they scare me. IF your guide layout is correct, it will keep the line off your forgrip period. If I have guides on my rod that the line isnt touching I have serious issues no matter which direction they are. What exactly do you mean keeps the line from burying, burying into what exactly, if you say the spool then again I am scared. Last time I checked proper line spooling tension would prevent the line from burying not my guide layout or direction. Now tell me one good reason I should do this again other than it looks bitchin...


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## Tacpayne

skunk king said:


> but how is the reverse position any different from the normal? The guide should still be 90% straight up on the blank. The only benefit I can see is the stripper guide could better absorb the impact of the knot, but I don't have an issue with frames bending and so don't have a need to do this. Any other benefits that I'm missing? I have seen this more with the low riders and maybe they're not as strong?


The reason for this on lowriders is well documented, if you have a piss poor lay out and your line come up past the guide and loops it it will not hang up the sweeping angle of the feet will shed the "wind knot"


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## jasonr

So Im thinking about building a rod herethis summer and would really love to know how putting the guide on backwards makes it taller. Im just not seeing this physically possible OffshoreManiac1.

Eitherway its my understanding that the way the guides are supposed to be set up line shouldnt be touching them in the first place?

Please educate me


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## Ed K

skunk king said:


> The only benefit I can see is the stripper guide could better absorb the impact of the knot, but I don't have an issue with frames bending and so don't have a need to do this.


1. Many of the guides now have a ring lock or cupped frame to hold the insert inplace if you reverse it and have "knot impact" you risk the chance of knocking the ring out. 
2. Knots impacting the guide should have little to no effect, if it does then you have problems elsewhere that should be fixed before than reversing a guide 
3. The guide is going to bend the same regardless of which direction it is positioned if enough force is applied to it.

4. I would love to see the person/cast that can bend the frame of a guide by the knot impact on a cast MUST BE ONE HELL OF A POWER CASTER.

You sir are such a wealth of knowledge I cannot understand why you are not giving a siminar at the ICRBE in a couple of weeks.


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## OffshoreManiac1

Ed K said:


> 1. Many of the guides now have a ring lock or cupped frame to hold the insert inplace if you reverse it and have "knot impact" you risk the chance of knocking the ring out.
> 2. Knots impacting the guide should have little to no effect, if it does then you have problems elsewhere that should be fixed before than reversing a guide
> 3. The guide is going to bend the same regardless of which direction it is positioned if enough force is applied to it.
> 
> 4. I would love to see the person/cast that can bend the frame of a guide by the knot impact on a cast MUST BE ONE HELL OF A POWER CASTER.
> 
> You sir are such a wealth of knowledge I cannot understand why you are not giving a siminar at the ICRBE in a couple of weeks.




I have never had a guide frame bend when reversed, and I have landed 600lb cape cod bluefin with no problem. What im trying to explain here is to complicated to type and must be shown in person.

http://www.tristatefishing.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=229&p=1365#p1365
here is a pic of the striper guide and first. the bottem of the striper flows even with the middle of first. under load the line falls from the top of the stripper guide and runs almost dead center down the rest. It then lies on the striper preventing the line from touch the blank or handle. Oh and fuji lowriders were not manufactured solely to be set in reverse. Also when I talk about the line "burying" I mean the line touching the foregrip under extreme loads. Guys when I talk about extreme loads I'm talking about bending a 500 gram in half on a 300lb tuna. I posted a pic of what line burying in a forgrip looks like with no striper guide. When building a rod with a striper guide, proper placement is key. Don't let this deter you guys this is just my opinion. I have never had a problem with them, if Im going out to jig big fish then i like a rod with a striper guide, it makes me feel more comfortable.


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## Tacpayne

Ok so the line bury you mean is into the grips, This is purely due to a bad guide layout and nothing else. Just incase you didnt know yes the lowriders were intended to be turned backwards, by fuji the company that designed them. They are were also designed to be used on rods over 12' with spinning reels and braided line. IF you rod is under full load and the line is passing through the center of the guide and not touching it, it is a bad guide layout plain and simple.Oh and in your photos, the rod goes from a lowrider to a mn style guide which are not the same height by design, doesnt matter which way the guides are turned they just arent the same height.


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## OffshoreManiac1

thats what im trying to say.... Oh and Ive seen more rods with the lowriders set normal then reversed. this reverse trend just started a few years back on JDM gear. Fuji lowriders were built and designed for overall better casting aerodynamically efficient,concentrated mass lures with braided line and tournament(long cast)spinning reels. They were intended for surf rods, and when it came to using them on short jigging rods they helped with keeping the line off the blank and handle. See were on a whole different page here.. Im talking short stroker jigging rods like 5ft 4inches and under, these rods are not made for casting, NOT one bit.


Fuji lowrider normal

http://www.tristatefishing.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=229&p=1370#p1370


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## skunk king

thanks Ed. I'm teaching a couple classes on rod building basics and English comprehension that I think will be of interest to you. 

Hope to see you there!


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## Ryan Y

*Where's my poking a dead horse stick?*

Ill just throw in my opinion. 
Comparing a jigging rod to a surf casting rod isn't as easy as it seems. These are both two very different subjects with two very distinct purposes.


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## OffshoreManiac1

Ryan Y said:


> Ill just throw in my opinion.
> Comparing a jigging rod to a surf casting rod isn't as easy as it seems. These are both two very different subjects with two very distinct purposes.



thank you for understanding, When these guys were discussing the reverse lowriders I was trying to give my 2 cents how they us jiggers use them.


P.S I had to remove pics from other site, I was in the process of doing something.


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## jlentz

My opinion is that with a reversed guide it is less likely for a knot to get hung up on the single support on the frame rather than the double supports on the frame. The only benefit I could see with setting up the frame the standard way is that the stronger part of the frame would be on the wider taper of the blank. Of course I would not want to revers any guides with Ring Lock type frames. 

With all this discussion/disagreement about why one way is better than the other can anyone tell me why the guides work any better set up the standard way?

John


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## Ryan Y

*Reversing guide.*

Here's my opinion. I used to reverse the guide because of the line between the reel and the first (stripper) guide would fluff out to one side or the other some times. At times, more so with spinning rods, the line would wrap around to the back side of the stripper guide and loop over it, causing a break and or a backlash. The frame being on the back would help the line to "Slip up" and over the the guide without catching.

You can see in my attachment the single foot side of the guide sort of dips back into and under the ring. Line would catch there. So I used to tunr the guide around so the line could slip back up the two frame sides.


I might be an issue too on jigging rods I suppose but I'd have to argue that the jigger is not maintaining the proper line contact with the jig and that the jig is not matched to the right "set-up"; it happens. However I rarely use convenentional reels/rods for jiggin anymore. I like spinning. and that's a whole other setup deal.


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## OffshoreManiac1

Everybody has their own experiances setting guides like this, IMHO I still think its a good idea.


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## Mark G

OffshoreManiac1 said:


> Everybody has their own experiances setting guides like this, IMHO I still think its a good idea.


Let me see if I understand correctly-- I think I got it, just not 100 % sure.

The guide ring doesn't sit smack dab in the middle of the feet -- if guide is in normal (forward facing) position the ring itself is more forward than the midpoint of the feet. By reversing it but keeping the feet in the exact same location you bring the ring closer to the reel, (and the grip). Although it isn't technically any "taller" reversed, by bringing it closer to the reel you create a sharper angle that appears to keep the line off the grip better.


Without making it rocket science, sliding the normal facing guide feet back an inch or so, or whatever is necessary, creates essentially the exact same angle as "reversing" the guide does it not ?

Not trying to create an argument, want to be sure I understand your reasoning.


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## skunk king

Mark G said:


> Let me see if I understand correctly-- I think I got it, just not 100 % sure.
> 
> The guide ring doesn't sit smack dab in the middle of the feet -- if guide is in normal (forward facing) position the ring itself is more forward than the midpoint of the feet. By reversing it but keeping the feet in the exact same location you bring the ring closer to the reel, (and the grip). Although it isn't technically any "taller" reversed, by bringing it closer to the reel you create a sharper angle that appears to keep the line off the grip better.
> 
> 
> Without making it rocket science, sliding the normal facing guide feet back an inch or so, or whatever is necessary, creates essentially the exact same angle as "reversing" the guide does it not ?
> 
> Not trying to create an argument, want to be sure I understand your reasoning.


I think it depends on the guide. The surfriders and other guides don't seem to be 90 degrees straight up, they have a slight bend to them. So you're changing that orientation of the guide, not just the distance to the reel seat.


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## Tacpayne

I measure from the ring to ring, any other way makes zero sense at all. There are to many guide types to do this, There are places where a reversed guide may be benificial,i.e jigging rods. But that is not in any way helpful to the OP, in his case it makes no difference


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## skunk king

Tacpayne said:


> I measure from the ring to ring, any other way makes zero sense at all. There are to many guide types to do this, There are places where a reversed guide may be benificial,i.e jigging rods. But that is not in any way helpful to the OP, in his case it makes no difference


I think he's talking about the pitch angle, not the distance of the feet.


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## OffshoreManiac1

Mark G said:


> Let me see if I understand correctly-- I think I got it, just not 100 % sure.
> 
> The guide ring doesn't sit smack dab in the middle of the feet -- if guide is in normal (forward facing) position the ring itself is more forward than the midpoint of the feet. By reversing it but keeping the feet in the exact same location you bring the ring closer to the reel, (and the grip). Although it isn't technically any "taller" reversed, by bringing it closer to the reel you create a sharper angle that appears to keep the line off the grip better.
> 
> 
> Without making it rocket science, sliding the normal facing guide feet back an inch or so, or whatever is necessary, creates essentially the exact same angle as "reversing" the guide does it not ?
> 
> Not trying to create an argument, want to be sure I understand your reasoning.





Im going to have to pull out some jigging rods and bend a few to show you. Im not sure if you offshore jig and know how True jigging rods work. most jigging reels are tall and narrow so if you have a tall reel like a torsa you have a high slope line angle. If you set the lowrider normal and butt the guide against the grip you have more of an angle and the line is farther from the reel itself. If you reverse the lowrider then butt it against the handle the ring is closer to the grip. This creates a sharper angle with more height and less distance between the reel and ring. A true jigging rod should bend almost in half under load and the line between the reel and stripper will drop and the added height should keep the line from touch the grip and your hand. A good example of this is the trevala. if you look at the trevala's foregrip shimano shaved down the end closest to the blank. they did this because under heavy load the line would dig into the grip. I don't think you know that using striper guides on jigging rods and using them on surf rods are two different ball parks like ive been saying this whole time. Im going to pull some jig rods out late tonight or tomorrow and snap some pics of reversed and standard lowriders on same blanks under load. Im going to dead lift 40-50lbs so you can see.


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## skunk king

OffshoreManiac1 said:


> Im going to have to pull out some jigging rods and bend a few to show you. Im not sure if you offshore jig and know how True jigging rods work. most jigging reels are tall and narrow so if you have a tall reel like a torsa you have a high slope line angle. If you set the lowrider normal and butt the guide against the grip you have more of an angle and the line is farther from the reel itself. If you reverse the lowrider then butt it against the handle the ring is closer to the grip. This creates a sharper angle with more height and less distance between the reel and ring. A true jigging rod should bend almost in half under load and the line between the reel and stripper will drop and the added height should keep the line from touch the grip and your hand. A good example of this is the trevala. if you look at the trevala's foregrip shimano shaved down the end closest to the blank. they did this because under heavy load the line would dig into the grip. I don't think you know that using striper guides on jigging rods and using them on surf rods are two different ball parks like ive been saying this whole time. Im going to pull some jig rods out late tonight or tomorrow and snap some pics of reversed and standard lowriders on same blanks under load. Im going to dead lift 40-50lbs so you can see.


Why not use an acid wrap? Seems like that would solve the the problem and allow you to use fewer guides.


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## OffshoreManiac1

I do acid wrap and still use a lowrider striper guide. Alot of us dedicated big game jiggers do this, Im def. not the first nor the last. For all you surf guys, heres a popping rod for tuna, this rod is able to handle 14 ounce lures. its 7ft 6 inches long and strictely for topwater. The first guide is reversed and the lowriders were used to cast heavy leader like 120-200lbs. 

http://www.tristatefishing.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=353&p=1388#p1388


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## skunk king

OffshoreManiac1 said:


> I do acid wrap and still use a lowrider striper guide. Alot of us dedicated big game jiggers do this, Im def. not the first nor the last. For all you surf guys, heres a popping rod for tuna, this rod is able to handle 14 ounce lures. its 7ft 6 inches long and strictely for topwater. The first guide is reversed and the lowriders were used to cast heavy leader like 120-200lbs.
> 
> http://www.tristatefishing.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=353&p=1388#p1388


very nice! What blank is that?


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## Tacpayne

There are several guys here who do offshore jigging. I personally have built several jigging rods, but dont do this type of fishing due to bad shoulders. Most of the rod builders here know what they are talking about and build a very nice rod.You keep stressing how you are talking about jigging rods yet the OP didnt ask for opinions on a jigging rod. I understand that you like to jig and show pics of your jigging rods, but they have no bearing on teh original question. Most of the information you posted was either incredibly misunderstood or just plain wrong.


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## jlentz

Offshore maniac Congrats on the 600 lb bluefin on a jigging rod, very impressive. Did you get into the hot poppr bite this last fall? I heard the action was awesome. Thanks for your opinions in this thread, I find them very relavent especially since the original post inquired about casting distance which does come into play in an offshore popping/jigging rod. You are spot on about the design of the handle on the Shimano trevala rods. The disagreements in this thread are due to the fact that it is a pier and surf fishing site and most arguements are coming from the idea of using longer rods and concerning casting distance. Offshore popping/jigging rods are a whole different thing.

In my earlier post I asked what the benefit was of putting the guides on the standard way over reversing them but have not received an answer from anyone here. Maybe I will reverse all the guides on my next rod just for the hell of it.

John


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## skunk king

jlentz said:


> In my earlier post I asked what the benefit was of putting the guides on the standard way over reversing them but have not received an answer from anyone here. Maybe I will reverse all the guides on my next rod just for the hell of it.
> John


I think no answer is the answer....ie, there isn't a good reason to do it if you're not using lowriders. It's not something a lot of people do.


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## Tacpayne

jlentz said:


> Offshore maniac Congrats on the 600 lb bluefin on a jigging rod, very impressive. Did you get into the hot poppr bite this last fall? I heard the action was awesome. Thanks for your opinions in this thread, I find them very relavent especially since the original post inquired about casting distance which does come into play in an offshore popping/jigging rod. You are spot on about the design of the handle on the Shimano trevala rods. The disagreements in this thread are due to the fact that it is a pier and surf fishing site and most arguements are coming from the idea of using longer rods and concerning casting distance. Offshore popping/jigging rods are a whole different thing.
> 
> In my earlier post I asked what the benefit was of putting the guides on the standard way over reversing them but have not received an answer from anyone here. Maybe I will reverse all the guides on my next rod just for the hell of it.
> 
> John


John, my disagreements do not come from him mentioning hte jigging rods it comes from incorrect information. How does turning a guide around make it taller? Dont you think that a correct guide layout with the correct guides is the way to keep line from digging into the foregrip? If you have a rod under load and the line passes through the center of the guide without touching isnt it in the wrong spot? There are to many things that was said that were incorrect, a new builder will read those and think they are correct, then start repeating false information. You can turn all your guides backwards if you want, it wont make any difference at all. That is exactly what everyone is trying to say except Offshore Maniac. The only guide on the market I wouldnt reverse is the fuji "K" frames though they angle of the ring would prevent me from trying it with those. You know as well as I do that the direction of the guide feet will have no bearing on the other guides as long as the placement is correct.


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## CJS

jlentz said:


> In my earlier post I asked what the benefit was of putting the guides on the standard way over reversing them but have not received an answer from anyone here. Maybe I will reverse all the guides on my next rod just for the hell of it.
> 
> John


I have two rods (1509s) built with the same layout, same conv. reels on each rod. One with the stripper guide reversed, one without. I heard that reversing the guide may help prevent the shock knot from catching, so I tried it. 

In two years, I have noticed no real difference between the two rods as far as knots gettting caught or performance. Just my experience. 

Good Luck
CJ


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## Mark G

> If you set the lowrider normal and butt the guide against the grip you have more of an angle and the line is farther from the reel itself. If you reverse the lowrider then butt it against the handle the ring is closer to the grip.


This makes things clear-- if the guide is already butted up aginst the grip the only (easy) way to get the ring closer is to turn it around-- Gotcha...




> I have two rods (1509s) built with the same layout, same conv. reels on each rod. One with the stripper guide reversed, one without. I heard that reversing the guide may help prevent the shock knot from catching, so I tried it.
> 
> In two years, I have noticed no real difference between the two rods as far as knots gettting caught or performance. Just my experience.
> 
> Good Luck
> CJ


Ditto-- this has been my experience also.



> In my earlier post I asked what the benefit was of putting the guides on the standard way over reversing them but have not received an answer from anyone here. Maybe I will reverse all the guides on my next rod just for the hell of it.


I'm sure most do it because that is the conventional way to do it-- and the way the guide was *designed* to be used-- the middle guide foot gives the most direct underneath support to the ring -- which encounters direct forward and downward pressure on a conventional rod set up when fighting a fish.


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## mbg60

Ed K said:


> 1. Many of the guides now have a ring lock or cupped frame to hold the insert inplace if you reverse it and have "knot impact" you risk the chance of knocking the ring out.
> 2. Knots impacting the guide should have little to no effect, if it does then you have problems elsewhere that should be fixed before than reversing a guide
> 3. The guide is going to bend the same regardless of which direction it is positioned if enough force is applied to it.
> 
> 4. I would love to see the person/cast that can bend the frame of a guide by the knot impact on a cast MUST BE ONE HELL OF A POWER CASTER.
> 
> You sir are such a wealth of knowledge I cannot understand why you are not giving a siminar at the ICRBE in a couple of weeks.


I am a thin, middle aged guy. Not a powercaster by any means. I have had a BSVLG 40 frame bent after hanging up a uni to uni knot on several casts. The ring finally popped out after the 3rd or 4th time the knot hit the "V" of the frame. This is the only instance it has occurred with any of my rods. Since replacing the guide with a reversed SVSG 40 I haven't encountered this problem again. The reel I use is a Daiwa Millionmax SS9000 with 65lb powerpro and 80lb powerpro shock leader with 6-8oz leads. All of the other rods I have built with guides faced in the standard fashion haven't had this problem.

This problem of the knot hanging up in the "V" of the guide was in direct correlation to fishing during extra windy periods. It could be very likely due to the stripper being set-up too close to the reel, but the rod wasn't originally laid out with the Millionmax reel. This may be an extraordinary case....but...it CAN happen. And, reversing the stripper SOLVED the issue of the knot hanging up.


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## Ryan Y

Thats why I don't use lowriders on conventional rods for offshore. The amount of guides that are needed to properly lay out the rod are, in my opinion, unwarranted.

I like to use the taller narrower reels when using conentionals to bottom fish. So If I build the rod, the first guide will be taller as well to match the reel. Ditto when using a spinning reel. I like the taller HVSG guides for the stripper guide to match the distance the reel is off of the rod.


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