# Learning



## Lipyourown (May 11, 2005)

When will someone admit they need to hammer it?


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## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

Just smashing the he!! out of it will get you decent distance, especially if you are a big strong guy.

BUT.... 

When you combine good solid technique AND the ability to JFHI (just freakin hit it) then the lead really flies. 

A violent hit is a beautiful thing...lol

Tommy


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## Black Beard (Jan 25, 2001)

Only use as much power as you can control.

More power than you can control reduces distance - BB


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## big brother (May 15, 2002)

throw it with evil intent; always
charlie


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

*this question*

has a bit of correlation to hitting a big drive in golf.

Question, Is it better to 

A. Learn to swing smoothly and gradually build in more power

B. Learn to swing as fast as you can- then try to bring it under control

At least some swing coaches opt for answer B. The reason is they feel it is easier to teach someone to swing with full power early on, then get them to back down to where it is just under control.

They feel that if you teach someone to swing under control first and foremost- it is more difficult to get them swinging at full speed later on. That is to say they get comfortable in their safe zone and stepping up the power later on becomes more difficult.

For fishing I use a very safe swing, in fact for distance casting I also tend to stay in my safe zone (for fear of blowing up I guess) I do know I don't care how smooth you swing, if you don't add some major juice into the punch/pull (hit) -well smoothness alone looks pretty- but just doesn't make the lead fly- or so I'm finding out.

I took the A. approach to my golf game

I am taking more of the B approach in casting for distance.

Only time will tell.


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

*clarification*

I took the B approach in golf ( tons of lost golf balls LOL) 

I am trying the A approach in casting

Just the opposite of what I said in first post.


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## longcast (Jan 9, 2005)

If you don't know where your cast will go, why cast at all? Or is it, fling the #ell out of it, and blame others for being under you. Learning control along with power will leave you in good graces with your fellow fishers. How many times have we seen somebody putting rod breaking power into a cast that goes almost parallel with the surf going over top of at least 20 others?


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## Thumb-Burner (Dec 3, 2002)

*some of the best advice i ever got..*

was to practice by putting a target at 150 yards.. cast at the target.. then move it 10 yards and so on..


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

Accuracy is just as important as distance, no doubt in both fishing and (to a smaller extent) tournament casting. Anything in bounds in tournys counts- out of bounds- doesn't count

Nonetheless- this is the distance casting forum- not the accuracy casting forum- just to be a wise butt  

Just a reminder the original poster asked a question about hammering it- which is obviously more crucial to getting distance than being accurate.


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## longcast (Jan 9, 2005)

Hammering it, is aiming with yer eyes closed.

If the "hammer" is to get to a spot way out there, off to one side or the other is useless. Putting your @ss behind a poorly aimed cast is worthless.


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

longcast said:


> Hammering it, is aiming with yer eyes closed.
> 
> If the "hammer" is to get to a spot way out there, off to one side or the other is useless. Putting your @ss behind a poorly aimed cast is worthless.


I don't think it was the intent to suggest that aim goes out the window with hammering it. Will agree reckless abandon is sure to cause some wayward casts. 
Same goes for a soft lob- direction may be great-but distance will suffer.

Let's just say if distance is the goal- using as much _controllable_ force as possible should be the desired goal


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## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

To say you can't "hammer" a cast with accuracy is not exactly correct. With proper technique, and by adding the "hammer" (I like to call it violence...lol) at _the right time_ then you can indeed hit it with evil intent AND maintain accuracy. Like BB said though, you have to be under control, but you can indeed hit it hard.

Proper technique is the key.

One of the scariest things is to be on the beach to the right of a raw rookie that is intent on slammimg a cast.

Run and duck...

Tommy


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

*Just to be clear*

I'm not suggesting a newby walk out on the point in the middle of 100 others during a blitz and "hammer" it.

Distance, like accuracy takes practice and is best practiced away from crowds.

After all in order to learn how to control the "hammered" hit- one must practice it.


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## Surf Fish (Dec 16, 2005)

Bad analogy on the golf swing, Surf Cat. A good golfer never swings at full power. Next time you see Ernie at the club, ask him about that...

When I decided to try and learn how to cast "correctly", by far the hardest thing to do was to convince myself to slow down; it's hard to erase the brain cells that have been trained over the years to think that hard and fast equals far.


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## HuskyMD (May 19, 2000)

doesn't it depend on the casting technique or method? Right now I just lob the cast and cast dead straight ahead. I can try to put some arse into it and will still cast straight ahead. If I switch the the classic off the ground cast, I still cast straight. BUT putting arse the off the ground will end up off to the side somewhere.

So I assume every time you try a new cast (pendulum, etc) you have to learn to cast it straight with good form before you really hammer it.


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

HuskyMD said:


> doesn't it depend on the casting technique or method? Right now I just lob the cast and cast dead straight ahead. I can try to put some arse into it and will still cast straight ahead. If I switch the the classic off the ground cast, I still cast straight. BUT putting arse the off the ground will end up off to the side somewhere.
> 
> So I assume every time you try a new cast (pendulum, etc) you have to learn to cast it straight with good form before you really hammer it.



Yep any time you try something new you need to work at it. Few things come natural to most of us


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

Surf Fish said:


> Bad analogy on the golf swing, Surf Cat. A good golfer never swings at full power. Next time you see Ernie at the club, ask him about that...
> 
> When I decided to try and learn how to cast "correctly", by far the hardest thing to do was to convince myself to slow down; it's hard to erase the brain cells that have been trained over the years to think that hard and fast equals far.


Its a perfect analogy. He who swings out of control with a golf club rarely finds the fairway (lack of control)

He who tries to put too much arse into a cast without first developing technique will also find his casts going off target. ( lack of control)

Regardless of the sport power without technique gets you no where.

And technique without developing power will always leave you shy of your true potential.

THe ultimate goal is to have as much power as you can control available to you- you might not always need it- but it's good to have some extra in the bag when you do.

Same analogy for a pitcher- One who can throw 125 mph fast ball is no good if he can't keep it in the strike zone- neither is one who can only throw 80 mph but puts it down the middle of the plate- hitters will be knocking his pitches out of the park.


Speed, power, and accuracy(technique) = ultimate distance whether hitting a golf ball or casting a rod.

Remove any one of the three ingredients and you cannot reach your full potential.

When I fish in a crowd I will always forego a little distance over accuracy, wide open space and I'll be a little more willing to put some extra horsepower behind the cast. ( If I need it)


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## cygnus-x1 (Oct 12, 2005)

Surf Cat said:


> Its a perfect analogy. He who swings out of control with a golf club rarely finds the fairway (lack of control)
> 
> He who tries to put too much arse into a cast without first developing technique will also find his casts going off target. ( lack of control)
> 
> ...


Well said !! Cheers :beer:


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

OK I'll give you this much, distance casting has more simlarities to long drive contests than to the complete game of golf.

In both cases the winner is typically (not always)
the big guy with plenty of POWER and CONTROL.


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## barty b (Dec 31, 2004)

This has been what is holding my distances back when it comes to tourny casting. I learned to cast OTG first. Accuracy came easy once the timing was programmed...This changes with different rods and weights. Next came the various pendulums..With these I wanted to get my technique right before I worked on gaining distance. The first time I ever tried a pendulum was with a borrowed set up at a tourny in Fl. I made the swinging motion a couple of times and then tried to smash the hell out of it...BIG mistake. WAAAY right..reel blew up and the lead hit the ground about 200' away (low flying crack off bullet).

These days I am confident on accuracy but still mistime a LOT when I really add the violence. So finding that fine balance IS THE KEY..So , Yes,I hold back a little on raw power at first,but as I progress through the practice session I will add more each time. Distance casting is a scientific sport..Raw power is just a factor in the overall equation.


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## Black Beard (Jan 25, 2001)

Black Beard said:


> Only use as much power as you can control.
> 
> More power than you can control reduces distance - BB


Sound familiar!


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

> More power than you can control reduces distance - BB


Wouldn't it be more correct to say more power than you can control reduces accuracy? 

I know some of my better casts have SEEMED effortless- but that's power properly applied.

The only time I see power cutting down distance is if your line driving the weight into the ground directly in front of you.

I guess my point is still this, without power your distance WILL definitely suffer- with excessive power distance MAY suffer.


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## jcreamer (Mar 6, 2001)

All this advise is great. From what I have seen a lot of beginners ( I am still learning also) come fishing with the idea that they have to throw as hard and as far as the more experienced people. When they cannot they really push themselves and end up hurting themselves or someone. Year before last I was one and tryed pushing a heavy 13 foot Diawa eliminator from Walmart. I damaged my rotator cup because I was doing everything wrong. 
This year I have better equipment and hopefully more patience.


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## terpfan (May 30, 2002)

before i learned the brighton cast, i used my version of hatteras cast. the distance was pretty good with the hatteras cast, but after the fishing trip, my shoulders were sore. however with my brighton cast, i can cast all day and won't feel sore afterward.


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## Lip Ripper (Dec 8, 2003)

Surf Cat said:


> Wouldn't it be more correct to say more power than you can control reduces accuracy?
> 
> I know some of my better casts have SEEMED effortless- but that's power properly applied.
> 
> ...


well, lets go back to the golf thing. if you hit the ball as hard as you can but miss the sweet spot on the club, ill beat you every time with a good form easy swing that finds the sweet spot.

i think casting is the same you have to find the sweet spot. thats going to be about 90% of the game. jmho


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## spiderhitch (Nov 9, 2005)

*hammering it*

i found with my style of casting when i want to deliver a far cast,i simply smash the hell out of it
with violent intent,i mean violent intent..with proper
technique and control....


mike


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## rndhededflip (Apr 19, 2006)

i move when that guy up there casts... its scary!!!


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

Lip Ripper said:


> well, lets go back to the golf thing. if you hit the ball as hard as you can but miss the sweet spot on the club, ill beat you every time with a good form easy swing that finds the sweet spot.
> 
> i think casting is the same you have to find the sweet spot. thats going to be about 90% of the game. jmho


I have never been to fond of the word "hard" in terms of describing the quality of a swing. As long as I generate maximum clubhead speed while making solid contact I will achieve maximum distance.

In golf the power has to be transferred in the form of club head speed. And yes you have to square the club up properly and make good contact to keep the drives in play. That being said which would you rather have in to the green a wedge or a 5 iron?

I had a boss who became convinced the easier he swung the farther the ball would go. He found out how incorrect this philosophy was when he had to carry a water hazard. Just dropping the club on the back of the ball may allow you to make better contact- but it takes club head speed to get the ball going. 

I understand- trying to kill the ball doesn't usually get the best results- all I'm saying is it takes _controlled_ power to get the ball to fly. Remember we are talking about how to achieve distance here- sure you can make up for lack of distance in golf with a good short game- that's beside the point of achieving distance- which is what I am talking about. Go to a long drive contest, or a casting tourny for that matter- and you'll see just how much power these guys use. No one is "laying back" when trying to achieve distance- 

The same thing for casting. It's a simple fact of physics. The faster a sinker is traveling as it starts on its journey, the farther it will go (Other things being equal- trajectory, spool control, etc.)

It should be obvious to anyone that it takes more energy (power) to move an 8oz sinker than a 3 oz sinker. Likewise it takes more energy (power) to get a sinker traveling at an initial velocity of 200mph than it does to get it going 100mph.

None of this is to suggest that using more energy than is necessary to achieve the desired speed is not wasted energy, it is.


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

jcreamer said:


> All this advise is great. From what I have seen a lot of beginners ( I am still learning also) come fishing with the idea that they have to throw as hard and as far as the more experienced people. When they cannot they really push themselves and end up hurting themselves or someone. Year before last I was one and tryed pushing a heavy 13 foot Diawa eliminator from Walmart. I damaged my rotator cup because I was doing everything wrong.
> This year I have better equipment and hopefully more patience.



I agree with what you are saying- Learning how to apply power takes a LOT of practice. I am in no way advocating that power can make up for a lack of technique- raw power will only get you so far.


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## rattler (Jul 3, 2004)

i'm sorry...if it dosn't go where you want, don't cast...i may be crazy, but get a fly rod and a a target...when you can put it there every time, you got it...fly rod will teach you timming and control...good teacher...control will beat a$$ every time...


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

rattler said:


> i'm sorry...if it dosn't go where you want, don't cast...i may be crazy, but get a fly rod and a a target...when you can put it there every time, you got it...fly rod will teach you timming and control...good teacher...control will beat a$$ every time...


sorry rattler have to disagree - you can practice with a fly rod till you can drop a fly in a jar at 20yds- it may help with tehnique but not the muscle development needed to heft 8 & bait out to the breakers.

Everyone seems to forget the original question.



> When will someone admit they need to hammer it?


It seems the best answer for some is they won't admit it takes power until after they have gone as far as they can with technique and still aren't getting the *distance* they want. The question pertains to maximizing distance- not accuracy.


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

*To set the record straight*

This thread did not start out as a distance vs. accuracy debate. Tho it seems a few are intent into hijacking it into that purpose.

I am not saying tehnique and accuracy aren't important. But sonner or later people have to realize than in distance casting, if two people have fairly equal talent in technique the stronger guy will _usually _come out on top.

Look at the top casters in the distance game.

Danny Mosekops is huge 6'6" and I believe I read close to if not over 400lbs. To the best of my knowledge he is also very serious about working on his technique. I believe Danny holds most of the current records in distance casting - but don't quote me on that.

Tommy Farmer is not the size of Danny but stills has a very powerful build. He also works very hard on tehchnique. 

I am not saying there is no hope for the little guy. I am only saying one has to be both concerned about developing *power* and *technique* to achieve the best results that *THEY* can achieve.


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## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

It comes down to three things really.

1 - technique
2 - power
3 - speed

Technique is the most important of the three in my opinion. A big strong guy that just knocks the crap out the rod can compensate for lack of technique and hit long casts. BUT, if that same big strong guy takes the time to hone his skill the distance will improve dramatically. 

Power does, in most cases come along with the big guy but not always. I've watched some small guys (Tony Jones and Andy Green come to mind) that are very strong and can really hit the rod hard.

Speed - Speed is something that comes naturally to some. For those that follow boxing, a fighter either has fast hands or he doesn't. You can train your fast twitch muscle fibers to increase explosive speed, but those that have it naturally are at an advantage in this sport and many others.

Now when you combine all three factors and mold it into a big, naturally powerful man that was blessed with amazing quickness you come up with Danny Moeskops. He has it all, and it will take a special caster to knock him off the top.

BTW, Danny is about 6'3" and goes about 350lbs. I've got a pic of Danny, Neil M, and myself standing beside each other. I'm 5'11" and Danny is 3-4" taller and significantly bigger in size.

Not 6'6' but a big guy.

Tommy


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

Tommy said:


> It comes down to three things really.
> 
> 1 - technique
> 2 - power
> ...


Tommy,
Thanks for the clarification on Danny's size- and for confirming what I said earlier-



> Speed, power, and accuracy(technique) = ultimate distance


Mark- 

OK i've beat this one to death- Next question?


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