# AFAW 13' Surf Testing



## HellRhaY (Jul 6, 2007)

Finally got the time to field test the guide placements on the AFAW 13'. (6 casts were made on each guide placement, then the average was tallied and recorded)
The football field was used as a measurement, anything exceeding 140yards, a tape measure was used. Thanks to Fernando for the tape measure and the watchful & keen eye in observing line slap.

first guide placement using the NGC= New Guide Concept. choker guide @ 77inches from the face of the reel spool, the first guide was way nearer than the fuji recommended distance of 47inches for lowriders. 
average dist= 136yards @ 3ounces

using the fuji guide recommended placement, only the top 4 guides were moved to allow for the curvature of the rod.
average distance= 151yards @ 3 ounces

using my no name guide palcement thru trial and error. first guide was at 51inches, choke guide @ 102 inches.
average distance = 178yards. @ 3ounces


guides were taped, ferrule was reinforced. here's some pics. used a 3M safe-walk instead of x-flock heat shrink or cork tape for the grip.


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## mud (Sep 23, 2007)

Great Job Hellrhay


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## Sandcrab (Mar 20, 2002)

Nice post HR. I'll be doing the same type of guide testing come Feb when my AFAW BB arrives. 

Sandcrab


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## The Crew (Jul 8, 2007)

Real nice report!
What cast were you using?
Do have one question - when you say the first guide was way nearer than recommended - how close was it and is that from the face of the reel spool?


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## Kwesi W. (Apr 14, 2006)

where did u get the 3m tape from?


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## HellRhaY (Jul 6, 2007)

BigEdD said:


> Real nice report!
> What cast were you using?


modified OTG. Half OTG, half Overhead.



BigEdD said:


> Do have one question - when you say the first guide was way nearer than recommended - how close was it and is that from the face of the reel spool?


the fuji recommended guide placement for lowriders is "ALWAYS" 47inches from the reel stem. You can go further than 47 but NEVER nearer. Using the Fuji New Guide Concept, the first guide is at 42inches from the reel stem.

with 51 inches, all the guides are located at the top half of the blank. Other than the distance adavantage it gives, there's also an advantage when it comes to transport because of the guides being on the top half.


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## HellRhaY (Jul 6, 2007)

kmw21230 said:


> where did u get the 3m tape from?


i got it from a custom builder from my area.
the 3M is more durable than cork tape and it also doesn't holds fish oil, it's also lighter. 


SAFETY WALK TREAD TAPE

Gives sure footing in slippery areas
Adhesive backed
Made for steps, entrances, ladders & docks
Easily applied
No nails, screws or separate adhesives
Sticks on wood, metal & smooth concrete

if you had held one of those g.loomis surf rods, it's the same thing.


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## The Crew (Jul 8, 2007)

Ok. Understood. I can see how it would help distance. I would think there would be some power (fighting) compromise. Not having a guide on the bottom half would mean all the pressure is on the top and reel. I think the Saltigas only have 3 guides. But really great report man. That knowledge is gonna help me when I build my first rod. Thanks.


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## HellRhaY (Jul 6, 2007)

the breakaway LDX doesnt have a guide at the bottom as well.


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## fingersandclaws (Oct 17, 2005)

HellRhay, nice post bud. Quick question: in the picture lookin' up at the rod with line goin' thru, looks like the 1st guide is positioned like the rest of the guides. Is this me lookin' at it funny? If so, I thought on the lowriders the 1st guide is supposed to be "backwards"? At least that's the way it is on my Balistic.


Edit: My bad, my resolution was funny, I see that it is "backwards" and on there correctly


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## Sandcrab (Mar 20, 2002)

HellRhaY said:


> i got it from a custom builder from my area.
> the 3M is more durable than cork tape and it also doesn't holds fish oil, it's also lighter.
> 
> 
> ...


http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawebserver?66666UuZjcFSLXTtl8&y4x&tEV76EbHSHVs6EVs6E666666--

Is this it - 4" wide?

sandcrab


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## HellRhaY (Jul 6, 2007)

Sandcrab said:


> http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawebserver?66666UuZjcFSLXTtl8&y4x&tEV76EbHSHVs6EVs6E666666--
> 
> Is this it - 4" wide?
> 
> sandcrab


1'' inch wide. hold one and compare it to cork tape or shrink wrap. you'll know what i mean.


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## matt c (Dec 1, 2007)

*afaw*

What reel did you use?
Matt


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## basstardo (Jun 5, 2006)

That 3M stuff is nice. I'm very partial to the shrink wrap, but that's my second favorite. 

Can't wait to see these rods when you finish them.:beer:


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## HellRhaY (Jul 6, 2007)

matt c said:


> What reel did you use?
> Matt


Shimano SpinPower Power Aero


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## junkmansj (Jul 23, 2005)

You can ease the roughness by using a warm / hot iron. I would experiment on Scrap to get the Temp and Timing right


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## toejam (Jan 28, 2005)

Sandcrab said:


> http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawebserver?66666UuZjcFSLXTtl8&y4x&tEV76EbHSHVs6EVs6E666666--
> 
> Is this it - 4" wide?
> 
> sandcrab



Product Name: Safety Walk Step & Ladder Tread Tape, 1"x180", Black 
Manufacturer Name: 3M 
Product ID: MMM7634NA 
Equivalents: MMM 7634NA, 7634NA, 70096, 302 
Manufacturer Part Number: 7634NA 
UPC: 051131594364 
Product Notes: Safety Walk Step & Ladder Tread Tape, 1"x180", Black 
Dimension (L x W x H): 6.75 x 4.5 x 1 
Shipping Weight: 0.25 lbs. 
Product Weight: 0.25 lbs. 
Product Cube: 0.02


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## eric (Oct 24, 2007)

and i just order a 12' saltiga here. lol


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## barty b (Dec 31, 2004)

I never understood that whole "backwards" stripper guide theory...Why would they say to put the guide on "backwards"? IF it makes a difference,which it doesn't why wouldn't fuji just design the guide differently. I've been told it makes a difference but nobody can say for sure as to why. Putting the guide on backwards doesn't change the size of the ring,it renders the arms which guide/choke the line down smoothly,completely useless. It doesn't change the height of the guide. So why do it? To me it seems like a waste,plus it just looks retarded. I had my AFAW built with the same guides and I put my stripper guide on the same as the other guides.

Anybody care to give an opinion as to WHY that guide should be backwards opcorn:


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## HellRhaY (Jul 6, 2007)

the guides are backwards because there are two legs on the front. those two legs have two v shaped corners coming. those v corners can trap/snag a shock leader knot or sometimes the running line would wrap around it. i have a magazine by fuji {in japanese which my bro translated} with pictures.

i'll try to take pic of the drawing.


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## HellRhaY (Jul 6, 2007)

hope this helps.


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## eric (Oct 24, 2007)

it makes sense when its backwards. like the pic shows.


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## jlentz (Sep 11, 2005)

That 3M tape is great. I have been using it on all my surf rods for a while. I have not had any trouble at all. Looks better after use than X shrink wrap.

John


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## barty b (Dec 31, 2004)

ooeric said:


> it makes sense when its backwards. like the pic shows.


Not really...The physics of it would lend to the theory that the larger loops coming off a spinning reel would tend to do just the opposite of what the photo is showing when the guide is backwards. *AS the larger loops would tend to get thrown around the guide. This being due to the fact that those legs actually act as pre guides to the ring,choking the line down as it goes through the ring.

How is it, that as they show,the loop coming from the tip section of the rod when the line is on the way OUT?? I can see that loop forming on the REEL side of the guide and getting wrapped as it shows,hence putting the guide on "backwards" would make no sense.

If it is as they say then why not put ALL the guides on backwards? I mean if it's nessecary for one why not the others,OR like I said,Why not design the stripper guides differently.

* I have done experimants with Lowrider guides regarding this and the results showed that it is almost physically impossible to get a loop of line to catch on one. So again I ask...WHY BACKWARDS??


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## RuddeDogg (Mar 20, 2004)

*Geat report*

My printer here at work is just printing away. Thanks Ray.


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

barty b said:


> Not really...The physics of it would lend to the theory that the larger loops coming off a spinning reel would tend to do just the opposite of what the photo is showing when the guide is backwards. *AS the larger loops would tend to get thrown around the guide. This being due to the fact that those legs actually act as pre guides to the ring,choking the line down as it goes through the ring.
> 
> How is it, that as they show,the loop coming from the tip section of the rod when the line is on the way OUT?? I can see that loop forming on the REEL side of the guide and getting wrapped as it shows,hence putting the guide on "backwards" would make no sense.
> 
> ...



Barty, I had a couple of conventionals built where the builders did the same thing, reversed the first guide, was told it was for the same reason. Asked around and was informed it was more fad and fiction, than anything else. I personally have plenty of standard built rods- and have never hung up on a guide.

A lot of builders are doing it, so to each his own.


Basstardo and company- do you get your 3m tape from a builder supply shop- or order it directly? THe stuff I have seen at Home Depot is 2" wide and looks and feels like sandpaper with a tape backing. Just wondering where to get it from.

HellRhay- on your concept guide placement are you using the math formula to determine the intersect guide placement, or sight of line ?

Nice post, BTW

:fishing:


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## barty b (Dec 31, 2004)

Surf Cat said:


> A lot of builders are doing it, so to each his own.


I guess that's what it boils down to


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## HellRhaY (Jul 6, 2007)

Surf Cat said:


> HellRhay- on your concept guide placement are you using the math formula to determine the intersect guide placement, or sight of line ?
> 
> Nice post, BTW
> 
> :fishing:


No concept guide formula or sight of line.
if i use diamter of spool lip multiplied by 27, the first guide would be way nearer than the fuji recommended of 47inches. when i use line of sight, there's no intersect. the Shimano Spinpower doesn't have an agreesive angle of the spool shaft. 

So i went with the fuji magazine guide palcement and move some a few and did a test cast on all guide configuration.


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## basstardo (Jun 5, 2006)

Surf Cat said:


> Basstardo and company- do you get your 3m tape from a builder supply shop- or order it directly? THe stuff I have seen at Home Depot is 2" wide and looks and feels like sandpaper with a tape backing. Just wondering where to get it from.


I just googled it and ordered it from a place I saw on there. It wasn't real expensive. It does feel a bit like sandpaper and is pretty rough on your hands after a while, but someone was telling me you could actually take an iron on a low setting and smooth the bumps down a bit. Haven't tried it myself, but I would imagine it would work.


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## toejam (Jan 28, 2005)

Surf Cat said:


> Barty, I had a couple of conventionals built where the builders did the same thing, reversed the first guide, was told it was for the same reason. Asked around and was informed it was more fad and fiction, than anything else. I personally have plenty of standard built rods- and have never hung up on a guide.
> 
> A lot of builders are doing it, so to each his own.
> 
> ...


I find it hard to believe that a company like Fuji would recommend that the lowryder striper guide be place backward to create a fad. I don't think it would make any different on a conventional setup but a fixed spool (especially the forward tapered spools) for which the lowryders are designed, has the line leaving off the spool in multipal loops which can tie a knot around the striper guide. I know this as a fact for it has happened to me on a standard placed guide, not a pretty site. But probablity more important is the lost is the performance due to the near misses of having the line wrapping the guide. I would bet the farm, Fuji as high speed images that would back up their placement schema...... 

Nice job Hellrhay,,,,


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## barty b (Dec 31, 2004)

Thats what I'm sayin TJ...Would it not make sense to you that the legs on the stripper guide would choke down the loops in the line BEFORE it goes into the ring?? WHY would you want to render that useless..

Rhay, The build looks good so far bro, I'm not trying to criticize you or your work


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## toejam (Jan 28, 2005)

barty b said:


> Thats what I'm sayin TJ...Would it not make sense to you that the legs on the stripper guide would choke down the loops in the line BEFORE it goes into the ring?? WHY would you want to render that useless..
> 
> Rhay, The build looks good so far bro, I'm not trying to criticize you or your work


Hey Barty , i see want you are saying and if the line was traveling thru the guides at the same speed that it was leaving the spool i would agree with you that the legs would help funnel it down thru the guide.. but when you have more line leaving the fixed spool than is being pulled thru the guides, no amount of funneling will help. especially if the line is the form of these big loops that can wrap around the guide. After the line passes thru the striper guide these big loops are more or less smoothed out and the danger of wraping a guide is much less. Let me hit the ole MM couple more times and it will be perfectly clear! hehehe


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## barty b (Dec 31, 2004)

MM Huh? What Have you stepped up in the world? :beer:

Oh well, I guess if it works for ya,put it backwards, If ya think it looks retarded,put it forwards..To each his own. I guess it doesn't make a difference, The ring size/height stays the same either way.


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## Hudak (Sep 10, 2007)

jlentz said:


> That 3M tape is great. I have been using it on all my surf rods for a while. I have not had any trouble at all. Looks better after use than X shrink wrap.
> 
> John


I have to agree, I have been using a Key Largo for a couple of years that came with the tape like that on it. It doesn't get gunk buildup on it, and whether your hands are dry or wet, you have excellent grip. Thanks for posting the name. I was wondering where I could get it for all my other rods.


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## HellRhaY (Jul 6, 2007)

finally fished one today. Januray 1, 2008.
2 Jacks (palm size), 1 sakte (28inches from wing to wing) and 2 keeper pompano's.

The rod cast real well. Fights the fish well also, especially the skate. At least i was able to try it on a hard pulling fish on its first day out.


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## eric (Oct 24, 2007)

so whens mine coming in the mail.. HHAHAHHA


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## Charlie2 (May 2, 2007)

*Guide Placement*

First, some history:

Daiwa and Shimano built their reels with a 4 degree upsweep to make the intersect point at the first and only guide on their Innerline rods,

Fuji, seeing that the Inerline rods were beating the conventionally guided rods in distance casting, developed the Lowrider System.

The intersect point, using the 120mm(47.2 inch), the 27 X spool diameter, the cotangent of 4 degrees multiplied by the reel spool spindle height, or the tabletop method for a 4 degree upswept reel are all about the same. This intersect point is the location of the butt guide for the Lowrider System and the third guide for the New Guide System.

Both systems funnel the line down to running guides to the tip. 

You have to realize that the Lowrider System was designed for distance casting using a fixed spool reel and braid line.

Braid line works well if allowed to go unimpeded out through the guide. If impeded by any means, it will cause problems.

A means was required to subdue the thrashings of braid line as it came off the reel and the backwards placed butt guide does this. It emulates the guide on the Innerline rod.

Fuji experienced cases of braid line wrapping back from the front side of the butt guide and reversed it.

I know that you can get by with Lowriders with the butt guide in the 'normal' position, but sooner or later, it's going to bite you and it's scissor time.

I have done extensive testing with the aFAW rod and Lowriders just before I came down here on holiday and I wrapped it conventionally, with conventionaal guides, with braid, with the Lowrider butt guide reversed without any real problems. Braid line is like a snake. It lies around acting normally then will jump up and produce a 'professional overrun', backlash, sluff and other terms not suitable for public consumption.

My recommendations are: Use braid with Lowriders the way it was intended, With a fixed spool reel, with the butt guide reversed.

It may be possible that the butt guide is 'normal' and the rest of the guides reversed? Think about it.

Fuji developed a new guide, positioned it at the intersect point, turned it around and the rest is history.

BTW, Fuji makes both the LC and LD Lowrider guides.

The LC is the doublefooted and the LD is the single footed guide. What they did to make theLD was to bend the guide forward about 45 degrees and elongate the eye. You can make your own LDs with a pair of needle nosed pliers.

I do like to discuss tackle and would appreciate emails at me at [email protected]

Sorry about the length of the post but this is a subject that can't be simply explained. Thanks for listening. C2

I will be going home tomorrow(I promise) What's auto theft?


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## HellRhaY (Jul 6, 2007)

C2,
the Shimano SpinPower Power Aero doesn't intersect with the rod. The spool shaft isn't angled enough to have an intersect point.

i have field tested different guide placement with regards to my reel and the lowrider, and the best guide palcement based on my field test was first guide at 51inches.


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

toejam said:


> I find it hard to believe that a company like Fuji would recommend that the lowryder striper guide be place backward to create a fad. I don't think it would make any different on a conventional setup but a fixed spool (especially the forward tapered spools) for which the lowryders are designed, has the line leaving off the spool in multipal loops which can tie a knot around the striper guide. I know this as a fact for it has happened to me on a standard placed guide, not a pretty site. But probablity more important is the lost is the performance due to the near misses of having the line wrapping the guide. I would bet the farm, Fuji as high speed images that would back up their placement schema......
> 
> Nice job Hellrhay,,,,


TJ, I didn't mean that Fuji was "trying" to create a fad, they may be justified in doing that with lowriders- but when conventional mono rods were started to be built by others, they thought it would be a good idea to "copy" the lowrider orientation for the first guide- well a fad was inadvertently created.

Hope that clarifies.

:fishing:
SC


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## Charlie2 (May 2, 2007)

*Intersect Point*

Hellrhay

The 122mm(47.2 inches) is for a 4 degree upsweep reel. 

I was explaining the story behind the Lowrider System which was based on a 4 degree upsweep angle. There are many spinning reels that are horizontal and won't intersect at that point.

In that case, just use a intersect of about 120mm and eyeball it to see what kind of angle you have. This distance can and will vary based on the brand of reel.

If your reel comes out to be 51 inches, that's close enough and you should have many happy hours of fishing. C2


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## HellRhaY (Jul 6, 2007)

thanks charlie.

by any chance are you the same c2 that's a friend of steve austin?


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## Kwesi W. (Apr 14, 2006)

what's the total weight of the rod?


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## HellRhaY (Jul 6, 2007)

total weight:
21.6 ounces

i didn't know it is this light until you ask for its weight. the blank alone weights 16ounces.


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## HellRhaY (Jul 6, 2007)

basstardo said:


> I just googled it and ordered it from a place I saw on there. It wasn't real expensive. It does feel a bit like sandpaper and is pretty rough on your hands after a while, but someone was telling me you could actually take an iron on a low setting and smooth the bumps down a bit. Haven't tried it myself, but I would imagine it would work.


 if you are going to get an iron, the 3m tape will change color, and only the bump that you ironed out would change color. so it will look spotty.

i know it because at the end of my foregrip before i wrap it, i smooth it by tapering it and using heat- melting it rather than using razor to taper it.


the best solution is to........................................................MAN UP and stop having your hands manicured!!!!


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## Kwesi W. (Apr 14, 2006)

so with your reel your looking at 40oz? That's awesome..



HellRhaY said:


> total weight:
> 21.6 ounces
> 
> i didn't know it is this light until you ask for its weight. the blank alone weights 16ounces.


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## Tmg (Mar 17, 2006)

*3M tape*

Boaters World stocks it


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## saltandsand (Nov 29, 2007)

Kudos to Ray. Lemme study it some more.


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## NJHeaver (Aug 13, 2006)

Hellrhay

What size guides did you use ? 

Great post by the way !!!!!!


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