# scientific proof of the strongest shock knot!



## Lip Ripper

well.... as scientific as i could get.
i finally got the time to do the tests and here is how it went. all tests were done with suffix tri-17lb. to 50lb ande shock. i got a scale that is accurate and has a needle that stays at the weight where the line broke, so this should be relatively accurate. i did 3 tests of every knot, and if i had a fluke break or something, i would exclude it from the results. i should also mention that i only tested knots that i am good at tying. and only tested them if they looked perfect. i also left long tag ends, because i just wanted to test the knot.here are the averages.

17lb suffix-tri to ande 50lb

just suffix(no knots)-------------24.33lb

improved allbright(10 wraps)---17.00lb 

spiderhitch to no-name----------21.83lb

overhand to uni------------------11.66lb



interesting thing is how consistent the knots were. in the 3 tests of each knot the biggest variance was only 1.5lbs. the allbright broke dead on 17lb every time.
allbright would break at the knot everytime, spiderhitch to no-name broke about 1/8in above the hitch every time, so in tying the knot you weaken the running line to the point where the knot is stronger, and trust me i spit all over these knots, and was extra careful. the overhand to uni was weird. the overhand(under pressure) would "roll" just a little, and break at the overhand everytime.

also, if there are any knots you would like me to test just let me know. but if you want me to test the bimini twist, tie it yourself and mail it to me. 

--------------------
*Note from sand flea: This is a very long thread. There's some good stuff in here, but Openboat was kind enough to write a summary that pulls everything together at the very end of this thread.*
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## emanuel

Spider hitch to no-name, that's how I tie all my rigs.
Thanks for the info.


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## Newsjeff

Thanks for the info.

Just wondering how many turns you made with the spider. I'm not sure it matters from what you're saying about where the line broke. Just wondering. I use 3 turns on mine with both 17lb and 20lb line.

Can you try a three turn spider to a four turn nail (main line) to a three turn uni with the shock? 

That's the DD way.


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## Lip Ripper

Newsjeff said:


> Thanks for the info.
> 
> Just wondering how many turns you made with the spider. I'm not sure it matters from what you're saying about where the line broke. Just wondering. I use 3 turns on mine with both 17lb and 20lb line.
> 
> Can you try a three turn spider to a four turn nail (main line) to a three turn uni with the shock?
> 
> That's the DD way.


4 turnes on the spiderhitch.


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## AtlantaKing

Nice test. It's good to see someone test knots having tested the breaking strength of the line _first_. I remember a test that Sportfishing or Saltwater Sportsman did where they just tested knots...and ended up with knots that test out _over_ the stated breaking strength of the line. 

I'm curious, how did you test the strength of the line itself? Did you wrap it around something? 

I want you to test the BT, but I don't have any Sufix. How about I send you 20 or 30 yards of the line I normally use (Cabela's Salt Striker) along with 5 BT-No Names with the tag ends left long on both running line and shock leader, and standing end trimmed to 2 yards?


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## Lip Ripper

to test the line i wraped it(no knots) 

ok, im going to go for the bt to noname, wish me luck.


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## Lip Ripper

20 turn bimibi twist to no-name

22.83lbs

it broke just above the twist. once again the knot held, but in synching it down you weaken the line because of friction. i guess the BT just does less damage to the running line than the SH does. 

ps- i put one of the poorly twisted BT in the scale for s*#ts and giggles, and it didnt seem to effect its strength.


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## Shooter

Now the next question is just how much drag pressure does everyones fishing reel have


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## Lip Ripper

well shooter, since i have my scale rigged to the celling i will give it a shot


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## fingersandclaws

Am I interpreting the data correctly in that just the 17 lb. Suffix had the highest breaking strength? 

I am assuming this test is for when you are "fighting" a fish . . . and not for casting b/c I don't think the forces work the same on the same piece of line when you are casting. 

Thanks for doin' the test Mr. Norris.


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## Anthony

I know that most fishing lines that are not IGFA certified break above the rated strength.


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## CrawFish

Shooter said:


> Now the next question is just how much drag pressure does everyones fishing reel have


Well, I tested my abu 6500 with the carbontex washer. I turned the drag star till I couldn't turn anymore w/out breaking something. I could barely pull the line out, and the scale went for a little over 9lbs.


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## Lip Ripper

525mag

with the drag tightened as hard as i could get it, and with a full spool.

pulling slowly------10lbs

fast yank-----------12lbs


penn555

slow pull---------12lbs

fast yank---------15lbs





this goes against what the manufacturer says, but i saw these results with my own eyes.

also after a cast your spool wont be full, so those numbers will go up. lucky for me i have another 525 with about 100yds of line off of it.

penn525(after 100yd cast)

slow pull-------12lbs

fast yank-------14lbs


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## Digger

A reel with 13lbs of drag is a hoss.
You have to factor in the friction from the guides as well.
I stick with the Spider to No-Name.


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## TreednNC

bible worthy


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## Lip Ripper

fingersandclaws said:


> Am I interpreting the data correctly in that just the 17 lb. Suffix had the highest breaking strength?
> 
> I am assuming this test is for when you are "fighting" a fish . . . and not for casting b/c I don't think the forces work the same on the same piece of line when you are casting.
> 
> Thanks for doin' the test Mr. Norris.


your right, i only did the test on sufix-tri to get a number to see how much the knot weakens the line. and during the cast the shock leader should take all the stress.


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## Shooter

So what I am seeing is the best drag only goes to 15 Lbs and the Albright goes to 17 Lbs.

So now I don't feel so bad when that Nuclear sub with teeth spooled my 7500 *with carbonex drag washers tightened all the way down and 4 layers of my thumb till I had to double thumb it and break him off.


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## surfchunker

*drag test*

You wouldn't have access to a Daiwa 30 SHA for a drag test .....


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## surfchunker

*Oh*

Shooter good point on drag and knot strenght


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## Lip Ripper

Shooter said:


> So what I am seeing is the best drag only goes to 15 Lbs and the Albright goes to 17 Lbs.
> 
> So now I don't feel so bad when that Nuclear sub with teeth spooled my 7500 *with carbonex drag washers tightened all the way down and 4 layers of my thumb till I had to double thumb it and break him off.


that is one of the things i was trying to figure out. if your knot and line can out perform your drag, then the weakest link is your rod.
but like Digger said, there are a few more factors to consider, like guides. and i have had cheeper reels where the drag would stick at first. 
i would take the rod and reel out, and tie the line to my truck, but im scared id break my rod.


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## Clyde

check the drag pressure with a bend in the rod, it'll be much higher.


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## Mark G

*interesting data*

how about spider hitch to uni.

Curious to see if it fairs a good bit better than ovehand to uni.


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## lil red jeep

*knot strength*



Lip Ripper said:


> i would take the rod and reel out, and tie the line to my truck, but im scared id break my rod.


Heck, if I was doing this, I'd be scared I break my truck!


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## Ryan Y

*Right on about the bible....*

But let this thread drag on a little for some more good info.

Ward is on his way over right now. We are gonna test some knots and build a nitro......ALL while Drinking......Wish us luck on the building part!


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## Lip Ripper

Firespyder7 said:


> But let this thread drag on a little for some more good info.
> 
> Ward is on his way over right now. We are gonna test some knots and build a nitro......ALL while Drinking......Wish us luck on the building part!


if someone else want to try the knot strength, please do. it would be good to compair the numbers. and see if they show the same results.


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## Lip Ripper

Surf Cat said:


> how about spider hitch to uni.
> 
> Curious to see if it fairs a good bit better than ovehand to uni.


4turn SH to 3turn UNI(shock) to 5turn UNI (double line) 

21.5 

breaks the same as all the others with the SH(just at the top of the SH)


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## TreednNC

Would be interesting to know how knot strengths change over extensive periods of time with pressure on them....say the spider to no name with 19lbs on it for 30-45min (weight of some sort in hung from the ceiling) then a slow steady pull until it breaks....some sites say that the spider weakens throughout battle??? hmmm wish i had a scale that stayed at the heaviest weight.....maybe a trip to the store in store for me to get one


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## Lip Ripper

SH to OVERHAND(shock) to 4turn UNI(double line)

14.66

broke at the overhand every time.


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## TreednNC

Lip Ripper said:


> SH to OVERHAND(shock) to 4turn UNI(double line)
> 
> 14.66
> 
> broke at the overhand every time.


lost me there spiderhitch to overhand to double uni? spider hitch for double.....then a uni with the double around the shock, and an over in the shock AROUND the double for a stopper?


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## Lip Ripper

TreednNC said:


> lost me there spiderhitch to overhand to double uni? spider hitch for double.....then a uni with the double around the shock, and an over in the shock AROUND the double for a stopper?


yep, seems like a overhand just murders your line. the only reason it held on longer than the overhand to uni is that it has a double line


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## CrawFish

How about testing the triple surgeon and no-name knot? Triple overhand is the same knot I think. I heard it's also a good knot and right there with the SH.


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## waywack40

How about a Perfection loop knot with the no-name? The perfection loop allows for tying a small loop which would result in the 2 knots being closer to each other along the line.


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## MacPE6

In the August issue of Sport Fishing they did a very similar test. Just finished reading it, things get here kinda late in the big sand box so it was the newest one for me. 

They did mono and braid line strenght, and a couple of different knots. 

Ripper's results are very close to those numbers that were tested on IGFA calibtated line tester.

Intresting that one of the P&S fishers of men & women did a test that Hatteras calibrated with almost the same results as the "Big boys".


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## Mark G

Lip Ripper said:


> 4turn SH to 3turn UNI(shock) to 5turn UNI (double line)
> 
> 21.5
> 
> breaks the same as all the others with the SH(just at the top of the SH)



Thanks for that.

Curious what kind of scale you have that is able to lock in the reading at the breaking point?


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## Al Kai

big red jeep said:


> Heck, if I was doing this, I'd be scared I break my truck!


Yep, me too.


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## AtlantaKing

Hey, LR, we should get together one weekend and test out all sorts of lines and knots. I like how you think 

I'm thinking about a test to figure out just how much pressure an average sized fisherman can put on the business end, through the full bend of a surf rod. I was very suprised myself when I caught my drum last month just how much pressure I can put on 15lb test. :fishing:


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## longcast

Most of us find it hard to hold a 12' rod with over 7lb of drag going off the end. Try it outside.

LR could you try single strand 5 turn Uni (Tri) to a 3 & 4 turn Uni on the Ande?

Next try using your best reel oil instead of spit, just a drop, just to see. Then maybe pulling the knot tight submerged in water & then water with dish soap in it.


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## Shooter

Hey Lip,,, just so I don't forget Thanks for doing this and posting the results, I think it might just open up a lot of eyes as to what really happens.


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## LiteTackleChamp

if you have a chance and some braid here are a few more

uni to uni braid to heavy mono 

yucatan braid to mono

and just a uni to a hook

and improved clinch to hook

do you have one of the drag scales that melton sells seems like i need one


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## Drumdum

Newsjeff said:


> Thanks for the info.
> 
> Just wondering how many turns you made with the spider. I'm not sure it matters from what you're saying about where the line broke. Just wondering. I use 3 turns on mine with both 17lb and 20lb line.
> 
> Can you try a three turn spider to a four turn nail (main line) to a three turn uni with the shock?
> 
> That's the DD way.


 Ya got it bassacwards,Jeff.. Three wrap nail in shock,4 wrap uni in doubled mainline.. 3 wrap spider is the ticket,imo.. Cinches better and more evenly with less wraps..
Due to speed when in a blitz,and simplisity of tieing in the dark a spider-no-name gets the job done nicely.. imho
In braid been using a bimini (cinch to tie in braid) to a no-name.. It IS strong from the testing I have done..
Shooter,if you are comfortable using an albright,by all means use it.. I just feel more comfortable with something I can't break EASILY with my bare hands... But,that's just me..


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## OBXFISHN

CrawFish said:


> How about testing the triple surgeon and no-name knot? Triple overhand is the same knot I think. I heard it's also a good knot and right there with the SH.



I second the request for this test.


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## Lip Ripper

im fishing today, but during the game tomorrow ill be tying all the knots i can. and posting the results.


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## KHKINGS

hope your catching um lip ripper, high surf and grass are creating no fish in southern shores


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## Lip Ripper

its a bow draw weight scale.




Surf Cat said:


> Thanks for that.
> 
> Curious what kind of scale you have that is able to lock in the reading at the breaking point?


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## bjake

Thanks for doing all the testing and posting it here for us.Am thinking about trying braid and need a lot of the info you are posting.
Jake


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## chinookhead

This is very sad since I have switched over to overhand to uni (Neil Mackellow "standard leader Knot") for my surf set-ups since it flies through the guide smoothly. In your overhand to uni knot, did u pull more main line through the overhand knot after tightening the overhand so that none of the main line that the overhand was tightened onto was in the knot? Just wondering since this may account for its extremely low rating.


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## Centralpafish

*Blood knot*

Lip you're providing a great sevice ! Thank you. If you're watching games today (given your location I'm guessing the "Skins") can you give the blood knot a try. I've had luck connecting 17 tri to 40# shock with this knot and was wondering how it compares. Thanks, Philly Jack
BTW-GO BIRDS!


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## Fishman

emanuel said:


> Spider hitch to no-name, that's how I tie all my rigs.
> Thanks for the info.


This is one of my favorate set of knots for most of my set ups.


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## Lip Ripper

*update*

triple overhand -VS- spiderhitch

TO-20.66
SH-21.50

very close.

as for how much pressure can you put on a fish
penn 525 mag on Om 12ft heavy with 17tri and 50lb ande

the most i could comfortably put on it-----9lbs

the max i could possibly put on it-------14lbs

i used the allbright knot just to see, if the knot is stronger than the drag then i would not be able to put enough force on the knot to break it.
well the knot held and at 14lbs the drag began to give some line. it looks like you pick up a couple lbs. of resistance from the guides.

by the way, at 14lbs my arms were shaking like a leaf, and that OM was BENT!!!!! you would never be able to fight a fish like that.

more to come..............


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## TreednNC

draw weight scale...this sounds fun


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## Lip Ripper

perfection loop

21.12

wow! very strong and the smallest knot of the double lines, so far. definitly worth trying out.


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## Lip Ripper

Philly Jack said:


> Lip you're providing a great sevice ! Thank you. If you're watching games today (given your location I'm guessing the "Skins") can you give the blood knot a try. I've had luck connecting 17 tri to 40# shock with this knot and was wondering how it compares. Thanks, Philly Jack
> BTW-GO BIRDS!


blood knot

12.16 lbs (4 wraps to each side) 


keep um coming.

ps- i need to know what lb braid you guys would like me to test?


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## Shooter

It's a given there are tons of great knots out there and yes a proven fact some are stronger than others and for most that don't know DrumDum can snap lines and knots with his bare hands like they were sewing thread,, Seen him do it a many of time.

Yes folks I do use the Albright knot :redface: but last night when I tied up with a very heavy toothy critter on the Fusion and the Abu7500 *with Carbonex drag washers* and 20# line the fight was on. Drag was tightened way down and thumb was added and for about 20 min.s the fight was still going, but he gave before I did and had him all the way to the beach untill someone just had to be across my line and thought they had something till they broke me off. 

Moral of the story is I tie the Albright very well and very quickly even in the dark and after fighting ol Mr Toothy till my arms were burning I don't feel to under-gunned anymore. So use the best knot you know how to tie and don't go shark hunting with a Zebco33 and 8# test.


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## Newsjeff

Drumdum said:


> Ya got it bassacwards,Jeff.. Three wrap nail in shock,4 wrap uni in doubled mainline.. 3 wrap spider is the ticket,imo....


Damn, Kenny. Here I've been tyin' a four-turn nail with the doubled main line and a three-turn uni with the shock.

I've had the number of wraps right. But the knots mixed up.

Knot much of a diffrence in the two.

I've put some serious heat on that knot setup since I began usin' it two - maybe three - years ago. It's held up very, very well fer me.

So, Lip Ripper, can you tie two spider hitches. Finish one with a four-turn double main nail to a three turn uni with the shock. 

On the other, tie a four-turn uni in the main and a three wrap nail in the shock. 

Just wonderin' if there is a diffrence.


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## Lip Ripper

Newsjeff said:


> Damn, Kenny. Here I've been tyin' a four-turn nail with the doubled main line and a three-turn uni with the shock.
> 
> I've had the number of wraps right. But the knots mixed up.
> 
> Knot much of a diffrence in the two.
> 
> I've put some serious heat on that knot setup since I began usin' it two - maybe three - years ago. It's held up very, very well fer me.
> 
> So, Lip Ripper, can you tie two spider hitches. Finish one with a four-turn double main nail to a three turn uni with the shock.
> 
> On the other, tie a four-turn uni in the main and a three wrap nail in the shock.
> 
> Just wonderin' if there is a diffrence.


just from what i have seen the last few days, the spider is going to be where it breaks. but ill give it a shot to make sure.


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## waywack40

For me with braid:
20lb main 50 lb shock.


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## Newsjeff

Lip Ripper said:


> just from what i have seen the last few days, the spider is going to be where it breaks. but ill give it a shot to make sure.


It's interesting that your spiders are breaking above the knot. 

Almost every time that setup has failed for me, I've reeled in an intact spider with a break in the double line and no shock.

Hmm. 

I wonder if this has something to do with a three turn spider and a four turn that yer usin'?

By the way, that perfection loop looks nice ... and easy to tie.


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## Cdog

Lip Ripper said:


> just from what i have seen the last few days, the spider is going to be where it breaks. but ill give it a shot to make sure.


OK stupid question, are any of these failing in the knot? I thought I read earlier that the spider was failing in the running line before the knot. Am I wrong?


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## Cdog

Newsjeff said:


> It's interesting that your spiders are breaking above the knot.
> 
> Almost every time that setup has failed for me, I've reeled in an intact spider with a break in the double line and no shock.
> 
> Hmm.
> 
> I wonder if this has something to do with a three turn spider and a four turn that yer usin'?
> 
> By the way, that perfection loop looks nice ... and easy to tie.


Jeff I have never had the spider fail in the double line except when i was coming back through the double line instaed of through the shock, but even then the double would still be there but no shock. And I use a 3 turn spider.


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## gone_fishing

I've had the best luck with a triple surgeon...I can tie it well and it tested the highest for me. I am using a Cabelas scale rated to 50#. It stays at the highest weight. Used 20# Ande to 60# Big Game. Got the Triple Surgeon to 17#. Still new at knots.


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## TreednNC

gone fishing....its great that youre testing your knots, but you want it to break atleast at your main line breaking strength, preferably higher since most modern day mono breaks at higher than what it's rated....try some of the combinations given in this thread.....i went to get a draw weight scale tonight, but gander mountain was closed as was the local shops....i need one anyway for my bow


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## Lip Ripper

Newsjeff said:


> It's interesting that your spiders are breaking above the knot.
> 
> Almost every time that setup has failed for me, I've reeled in an intact spider with a break in the double line and no shock.
> 
> Hmm.
> 
> I wonder if this has something to do with a three turn spider and a four turn that yer usin'?
> 
> By the way, that perfection loop looks nice ... and easy to tie.


NJ, i took the SH out of the equation, i just doubled the 17 and wrapped both ends(of the 17) around the scale and pulled the shock.

4turn nail(main line) to 3 turn uni (shock)----25lb broke where you described

4turn uni(main line) to 3 turn nail(shock)------40lb!!! broke on the nail!!!

problem is, with the SH these knots never become an issue(in my tests).


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## Newsjeff

Lip Ripper said:


> NJ, i took the SH out of the equation, i just doubled the 17 and wrapped both ends(of the 17) around the scale and pulled the shock.
> 
> 4turn nail(main line) to 3 turn uni (shock)----25lb broke where you described
> 
> 4turn uni(main line) to 3 turn nail(shock)------40lb!!! broke on the nail!!!
> 
> problem is, with the SH these knots never become an issue(in my tests).


LR, I want to thank you very much for your help.

I like to copy DD.

When I copy him correctly it's even better. 

Thanks again.


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## Newsjeff

LR, how about a double nail?

Four turns on the Sufix and three on the shock. 

I'm gonna owe ya a beer or two.


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## Lip Ripper

Newsjeff said:


> LR, how about a double nail?
> 
> Four turns on the Sufix and three on the shock.
> 
> I'm gonna owe ya a beer or two.


just nail to nail, no SH-----------29.5lb

DD's knot is damn strong, and i really like the perfection loop so far.


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## TreednNC

Lip Ripper said:


> just nail to nail, no SH-----------29.5lb
> 
> DD's knot is damn strong, and i really like the perfection loop so far.


I'm a believer in what DD says too.....got any 14lb fireline and 20lb mono layin around? If you do, how bout a double uni 5 in fire line 3 in mono, uni to nail in however many wraps you see fit, and a slim beauty that finishes with a uni instead of a clinch....if not, thats fine, youve got me wantin to go find a draw weight scale no anyway.


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## trowpa

Ok - maybe its too similar to the overhand/uni test you arlready did, but I'd like to see Neils "Standard Leader knot" tested: http://neilmackellow.sea-angler.org/knot5.html


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## gone_fishing

With the spider hitch/slim beauty knot how long should the loop be? Any chance that the loop catches a guide on the cast or retrieve?


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## LiteTackleChamp

how about 20lb pp to 30 lb fluro?

this might be the never ending thread


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## TreednNC

gone_fishing said:


> With the spider hitch/slim beauty knot how long should the loop be? Any chance that the loop catches a guide on the cast or retrieve?



Two different knots....loop length as long as you desire. A great piece of advice from the great knot master Drumdum: Tie your spider hitch with a no name, just not so long that they pass each other on the spool of the reel, when the shock gets frapped, snip the no name, and tie a uni uni or uni name in the remaining double. 

Theyre small knots. I personally have never had an issue with them slapping or catching guides.

The slim beauty doesnt require a loop.

Hope this helps.


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## CrawFish

Another one you can test is making the loop on the mainline with a 3 turn nail knot then no-name to your shock leader.

Thanks for testing all these knots.


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## TreednNC

CrawFish said:


> Another one you can test is making the loop on the mainline with a 3 turn nail knot then no-name to your shock leader.
> 
> Thanks for testing all these knots.



3 turn nail in the main, no name around the shocker with the nail snugged down against it?


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## Mark G

Lip Ripper, your going to be one knot tying specialist when this is done.

I think it's great to compare knots, but think folks should also be aware (most of you are, I'm sure) but it's worth mentioning for others.

A freshly tied knot in fresh mono will NOT retain it's breaking strength for long- as an example I can make maybe half a dozen HARD casts with a rig before retying or risk knot failure. Playing a fish and retrieving your line across sand will also cause wear and tear- even if you can't feel or see signs of wear, it pays to retie several times a day while fishing.


I've seen several instances where people have lost fish because they got to the spot and tossed out a rig that had been tied up on a previous outing, and the shock leader (and knot) had been stored on the reel since "whenever" the last trip may have been.

Not preaching, just a little food for thought.

:fishing:


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## CrawFish

Using the knot tying tool to make a loop via nail knot. Then use the loop to tie the no-name for shockleader.


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## Drumdum

CrawFish said:


> Using the knot tying tool to make a loop via nail knot. Then use the loop to tie the no-name for shockleader.


 Teo,imho,that nail is going to slide,just like a "hangman's noose".. Then one side of the double is going to be shorter than the other,and you will have failure at the shockknot itself..

Did a thing on knots and rigs at Randy's Baitshack.. About 20 folks there,and was a great time talking and meeting new folks.. Tried to explain to all there that there is no REAL CUREALL KNOT that can be used.. I'm real stupid about knots,and thier strength,so sometimes go a bit overboard,but want to see folks using the strongest connection they can tie quick and easy and are comfortable with.. Shooter is a fan of the albright,as are many. He's comfortable with that knot and it works. 
Not trying to change folk's minds,just wanting folks to know which is stronger. If I find something new that fits that bill,I try it.. Had been using the connection Jeff spoke of for over 30yrs,and changed.. WHY?? Well me ole eyes have a problem these days with tieing a bimini in the dark.. The uni to nail can be tied in the dark,but the no-name is much faster. Have even shortened it to three turns and it works like a charm with a three wrap spider.. Haven't seen much if any compromise in strength.. This is what I use,but as has been said use what you can tie fast,have confidence in and works.. The confidence factor is one of the most important parts of fishing and catching fish,imo.. 

Treed,as far as the spider weakening with time.. Caught seven bigguns on the same three wrap spider in the same day,all over 43" one 48, a few weeks back.. Spider held throughout...


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## Puppy Mullet

Am I the last sole on the beach using Big Game 20lb. solar running line with BG shocker? 

Test that and see what ya get!

When it comes to getting 5 extra yards versus bringing the heat I give them the heat.

spider/noname


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## OBXFISHN

Lip Ripper said:


> just nail to nail, no SH-----------29.5lb


Is this with the suffix doubled? (Must be because its stronger than the suffix alone.) 


> 17lb suffix-tri to ande 50lb
> 
> just suffix(no knots)-------------24.33lb


Please try nail to nail without doubling the suffix.


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## TreednNC

Drumdum said:


> Treed,as far as the spider weakening with time.. Caught seven bigguns on the same three wrap spider in the same day,all over 43" one 48, a few weeks back.. Spider held throughout...


You know DD, Im sure the websites were talking about those long battles with 1200lb tiger sharks and 2000lb great white and the occasional grander blue marlin that run spots up on the beach


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## CrawFish

Drumdum said:


> Teo,imho,that nail is going to slide,just like a "hangman's noose".. Then one side of the double is going to be shorter than the other,and you will have failure at the shockknot itself..


You're saying the nail knot is going to slide? Are you talking abou tying it with a single line? I was talking about tying it like the spider hitch, only different is when you bring the loop back thru all of the wraps (3), not like the spider when you only bring it thru one time. This nail knot loop alot better than the spider. IMOP

btw.. you can just wrap around just the finger like you would when you nail snell the hook.


----------



## OBXFISHN

CrawFish said:


> You're saying the nail knot is going to slide? Are you talking abou tying it with a single line? I was talking about tying it like the spider hitch, only different is when you bring the loop back thru all of the wraps (3), not like the spider when you only bring it thru one time. This nail knot loop alot better than the spider. IMOP
> 
> btw.. you can just wrap around just the finger like you would when you nail snell the hook.



That's interesting. So the normal 'tag' end would be your loop? opcorn:


----------



## Lip Ripper

yes thats doubled 17 tri.



OBXFISHN said:


> Is this with the suffix doubled? (Must be because its stronger than the suffix alone.)
> 
> 
> Please try nail to nail without doubling the suffix.


----------



## Lip Ripper

neils standard leader knot, is the one that was breaking at 11.66lb


----------



## gone_fishing

Ok, I got sick of my knots breaking at 5-12# so I put my shiny new Avet Sx on my shiny new Quantum Blue Runner Gold rated 20-40# at 7'. I tied the running line (Ande 15#) to a snap swivel using a uni. I hooked that to my Cabelas scale and put a bucket of paint on the end. At full strike and pulling as hard as I can without breaking the rod I got 5# of pressure. 

So am I correct to say: 

1) My knots were better than I thought...just testing using 1' of line.
2) 5# of pressure sounds weaker than it really is.

Thoughts?


----------



## trowpa

Lip Ripper said:


> neils standard leader knot, is the one that was breaking at 11.66lb


UGH!!! and I love that knot...one of the few I can tie reliably lol...


----------



## gone_fishing

Just went outside to test my improved albright knot..jerked and pulled...then I put the line and rod straight and pulled like I had a snag. Popped at the knot with 10# of pressure.


----------



## Lip Ripper

gone_fishing said:


> Ok, I got sick of my knots breaking at 5-12# so I put my shiny new Avet Sx on my shiny new Quantum Blue Runner Gold rated 20-40# at 7'. I tied the running line (Ande 15#) to a snap swivel using a uni. I hooked that to my Cabelas scale and put a bucket of paint on the end. At full strike and pulling as hard as I can without breaking the rod I got 5# of pressure.
> 
> So am I correct to say:
> 
> 1) My knots were better than I thought...just testing using 1' of line.
> 2) 5# of pressure sounds weaker than it really is.
> 
> Thoughts?


at 5# would the drag slip? or did you stop?


----------



## Lip Ripper

gone_fishing said:


> Just went outside to test my improved albright knot..jerked and pulled...then I put the line and rod straight and pulled like I had a snag. Popped at the knot with 10# of pressure.


what line/leader?

it will be nice to have some # to compare


----------



## Sea Level

LR, could you test a 6 turn uni to uni between 17# sufix Tri and 65# Power Pro -- thanks.


----------



## gone_fishing

LR...I thumbed the spool to keep from slipping. The knot was a improved albright...my numbers are not reliable as I cannot tie knots well...yet. 

I just loaded up my blue yonder and Avet with the shock leader using the improved albright...will test in NJ tomorrow night. 

15# Ande/50# Ande


----------



## CrawFish

I thought the original thread was testing knots, not testing line. So to keep it true to the test, line must remain the same and only request of different knots to test.


----------



## Lip Ripper

CrawFish said:


> I thought the original thread was testing knots, not testing line. So to keep it true to the test, line must remain the same and only request of different knots to test.


your right, if someone wants to try braid/mono, that would be awsome!
but if i start trying braid, it throws everything off. and this thread would go in for 20 pages. not to mention my fingers would fall off.


----------



## chinookhead

trowpa said:


> Ok - maybe its too similar to the overhand/uni test you arlready did, but I'd like to see Neils "Standard Leader knot" tested: http://neilmackellow.sea-angler.org/knot5.html


A 2nd request to try this knot "Standard Leader Knot"...this is the knot that I use almost exclusively now since it always slides through the guides smoothly unlike my albrights which sometimes stick....I may have to go back to albrights.
Thanks Lip Ripper for all the info!!


----------



## Digger

Lip Ripper Thank you for your work. It has been a very long time since I played with a scale to find breaking strengths but never did I have one that I could trust. The electronic fish scale just did not hold up, in those days. Or did I do with so many options. Good Work!


----------



## Cdog

chinookhead said:


> A 2nd request to try this knot "Standard Leader Knot"...this is the knot that I use almost exclusively now since it always slides through the guides smoothly unlike my albrights which sometimes stick....I may have to go back to albrights.
> Thanks Lip Ripper for all the info!!


I think this answers your question.



Lip Ripper said:


> neils standard leader knot, is the one that was breaking at 11.66lb


----------



## rsieminski

How about a double surgeon to slim beauty, with the running line going through the DS twice like this:

http://www.midcurrent.com/articles/knots/slim_beauty.aspx


Someone on Capt Mels site posted this:
"
The Slim Beauty Knot
From Ken Owen

Hello again Mel, 

I've been fiddling with the Slim Beauty as a substitute for the Bimini Twist on my tarpon leaders. I have stress tested over 30 leaders of about 10ft in length. Consisting of 6ft of 60lb stren mono leader, 3ft of 20lb stren mono tippet and 12 inches of 80lb mono shock leader. The Slim Beauty has been testing out at up to 29lbs. Over a 100% knot strength for up to 5 minutes. The trick is to tie the knot with doubled over 20lb test with 10 loops. Then test leader for 18lbs of stress for 3 minutes to tighten up the knots. Then remove the pressure and take the leader to your work bench to trim the tag ends. Then test again up to 20lbs of stress and no more for 3 minutes. I found that if I do this the leader will ultimately withstand at least 29lbs of stress until it breaks. You've got to try this set up. 

Take care and tight lines, 

Ken

"


----------



## Lip Ripper

rsieminski said:


> How about a double surgeon to slim beauty, with the running line going through the DS twice like this:
> 
> http://www.midcurrent.com/articles/knots/slim_beauty.aspx
> 
> 
> Someone on Capt Mels site posted this:
> "
> The Slim Beauty Knot
> From Ken Owen
> 
> Hello again Mel,
> 
> I've been fiddling with the Slim Beauty as a substitute for the Bimini Twist on my tarpon leaders. I have stress tested over 30 leaders of about 10ft in length. Consisting of 6ft of 60lb stren mono leader, 3ft of 20lb stren mono tippet and 12 inches of 80lb mono shock leader. The Slim Beauty has been testing out at up to 29lbs. Over a 100% knot strength for up to 5 minutes. The trick is to tie the knot with doubled over 20lb test with 10 loops. Then test leader for 18lbs of stress for 3 minutes to tighten up the knots. Then remove the pressure and take the leader to your work bench to trim the tag ends. Then test again up to 20lbs of stress and no more for 3 minutes. I found that if I do this the leader will ultimately withstand at least 29lbs of stress until it breaks. You've got to try this set up.
> 
> Take care and tight lines,
> 
> Ken
> 
> "


ok, i tied this knot just like the link says, and it came out great, easy to tie, low profile, and looks damn good. but to keep everything fair it just didnt test as well as some of the others. i didnt hang weights from it like the article says because i had to keep everything the same, also i wouldnt have the time to do that in a fishing situation.

double surgen(shock) to slim beauty

19.66

broke where the single line passes throught the double surgen.

ken, thanks, i think that will be a usefull knot to know. everyone should learn this one.


----------



## CrawFish

LR, did you have a chance to test the knot I requested yet? The one using the nail knot to make the loop, but only to use the double line. The tag end is the resulfting loop. It's like tying the SH, only thing is you don't have to make a loop before you do the wraps. You can just wrap the double line around your finger (3 wraps), then pass the double line (loop) thru the 3 wraps. This knot comes out nicer than the SH. 

Thanks for all the testing. Next time I see you, I'll show you the BT. And you all you have to use is your hands.


----------



## rsieminski

WOW! That was quick! I'm pleasantly surprised it's so strong. I use that one for every shock leader. It slides through the guides without a problem, because of it's low profile. If the diameters are way diferent, I double the thinner line up (15-20# braid to 50-60# ande).


----------



## Lip Ripper

CrawFish said:


> LR, did you have a chance to test the knot I requested yet? The one using the nail knot to make the loop, but only to use the double line. The tag end is the resulfting loop. It's like tying the SH, only thing is you don't have to make a loop before you do the wraps. You can just wrap the double line around your finger (3 wraps), then pass the double line (loop) thru the 3 wraps. This knot comes out nicer than the SH.
> 
> Thanks for all the testing. Next time I see you, I'll show you the BT. And you all you have to use is your hands.


if im tying it right, it beats the SH!! and it comes out neater that the SH.

doubled main line nail knot to noname

22.00lb

broke at the nail.


----------



## WALT D.

I'd be interested to see how a spider hitch - doulble uni tested. I've been trying the spider no name but I've had it come apart on me a couple times (I'm sure it's because I didn't get the leader tag at 90 degrees when I drew it up) But no trouble with the double uni even when I tie it in a rush. I just don't like having 2 tag ends.

If I ever get around to it I'll put the scale to it myself.

Walt


----------



## chinookhead

Cdog said:


> I think this answers your question.


oh, thanks Cdog.....I guess that means that I'll have to wean myself off that knot and start practicing another knot...I think I'll go back to the albright...too many snags in many of my fishing areas to us very time consuming knots.


Trowpa I feel your pain brother!!!


----------



## Lip Ripper

chinookhead said:


> oh, thanks Cdog.....I guess that means that I'll have to wean myself off that knot and start practicing another knot...I think I'll go back to the albright...too many snags in many of my fishing areas to us very time consuming knots.
> 
> 
> Trowpa I feel your pain brother!!!


check out the double overhand to slim beauty.
awsome knot. and super small.


----------



## eric

i use slim beauty with double mainline. very strong knot.
i find i like it better then bb/nn or sh/nn as it casts alot better.

i can power all i want into a cast and it doesnt clip.


----------



## Drumdum

CrawFish said:


> You're saying the nail knot is going to slide? Are you talking abou tying it with a single line? I was talking about tying it like the spider hitch, only different is when you bring the loop back thru all of the wraps (3), not like the spider when you only bring it thru one time. This nail knot loop alot better than the spider. IMOP
> 
> btw.. you can just wrap around just the finger like you would when you nail snell the hook.


 Have never tried it as a spider,only as a "loop knot" when sightcasting... It would slide down to the bucktail and chaff the leader.. I now use a trilene knot for that.. It gives the loop without sliding down to the bucktail when fighting a fish.. 
Since LR tested it as a spider,looks as though it would work fine,maybe because the doubled end is held from sliding by the shock knot itself??.. The way I'm tieing a spider now though,the spider is about twice as quick.. Someday I'm gonna have to make pics of this new way of tieing it..

Treed,ain't fought a big blueone or tuna from the beach.. Would need some waterskis fer one a dem..


----------



## Ryan Y

*Amen Brotha!*



Shooter said:


> It's a given there are tons of great knots out there and yes a proven fact some are stronger than others and for most that don't know DrumDum can snap lines and knots with his bare hands like they were sewing thread,, Seen him do it a many of time.
> 
> Yes folks I do use the Albright knot :redface: but last night when I tied up with a very heavy toothy critter on the Fusion and the Abu7500 *with Carbonex drag washers* and 20# line the fight was on. Drag was tightened way down and thumb was added and for about 20 min.s the fight was still going, but he gave before I did and had him all the way to the beach untill someone just had to be across my line and thought they had something till they broke me off.
> 
> Moral of the story is I tie the Albright very well and very quickly even in the dark and after fighting ol Mr Toothy till my arms were burning I don't feel to under-gunned anymore. So use the best knot you know how to tie and don't go shark hunting with a Zebco33 and 8# test.


----------



## trowpa

Lip Ripper said:


> check out the double overhand to slim beauty.
> awsome knot. and super small.



LIP - you have a good link to instructions /photos on this knot? I'd like to learn it.


----------



## rsieminski

http://www.midcurrent.com/articles/knots/slim_beauty.aspx

Been using this one for a while now. It sails through the guides, and Lip Ripper tested it out on the previous page to 19.66#.



Maybe Lip Ripper can edit the 1st post to list all the knots, with their tested strengths. Thanks Lip Ripper, this could be a sticky.


----------



## trowpa

Thanks rsieminski - great directions!


----------



## dandrew

Thanks Lip Ripper for all of your work on this, and thanks to everyone else for their contributions. I've used Neil's knot for the past couple of years with no problems, but last night tied up some Double Overhand to Slim Beauty knots. Like Neil's knot it's very easy to tie and I'll try it out this weekend.


----------



## trowpa

dandrew said:


> Thanks Lip Ripper for all of your work on this, and thanks to everyone else for their contributions. I've used Neil's knot for the past couple of years with no problems, but last night tied up some Double Overhand to Slim Beauty knots. Like Neil's knot it's very easy to tie and I'll try it out this weekend.


dandrew - in the same boat - report back your results and I'll do the same. Thanks


----------



## gone_fishing

Well my improved albright worked just fine last night and today. Didn't catch any big fish but hauled in a few skates and plenty of bait checks.


----------



## TreednNC

You know kenny...I didnt drive through the ATM and break those rods that way....was actually a blue marlin blitz down at the inlet on finger mullet heads....whata ya do with a 1000lber hits a spiked rod and decides to go back to the gulf stream?  I'z jus tryin to keep it a secret at the time  jk jk jk for those w/o a sense of humor.....


Back to the knots.....should make an Excel chart with double line connections on the Y axis, connection knots and variations of raps on the X and then fill in the average breaking strength after three properly tied knots like youre doing now.....and keep it at say 17tri to 50 ande or whatever you use....just compile some data.................might be as useless as a boar hog with t!ts but atleast if somebody asks which knot is best, we could defer them the chart.......the could look to see which knots they can tie and then check the strength. Really wouldnt take that long if the control was the line and the scale, and the variable the knots. Probably could make a pretty good chart as is with the data on this thread, just need to compile it. Id just about be willing to make one........hmmmm....imagine a chart with some basic connections to just compare by............no you dont realistically need a chart, and it would take some curve off for knot newbies, but it would be an interesting reference sheet for p!ssing matches


----------



## eric

gone_fishing said:


> Well my improved albright worked just fine last night and today. Didn't catch any big fish but hauled in a few skates and plenty of bait checks.


the problem with albrights and albertos is that.

alot of times the leaders tag sticks out the knot. i know we all wanna cut it flush. 
due to science and slippage. we cant. 

alot of times when i power cast an albertorights, itll hit the first guide and snap the mainline. 

use the slim beauty knot .. it just effortlessly zips by guides.

the cinch.neil.nail knot acts like a ramp that enlarges to the shock side. goes out easy.

i have yet to break my leader with a slim on cast.


----------



## gone_fishing

Ok, I will practice the slim beauty again. How big should the spider loop be? Mine seems too big.


----------



## Lip Ripper

gone_fishing said:


> Ok, I will practice the slim beauty again. How big should the spider loop be? Mine seems too big.


you can make it any size you want, you will just clip more off the tag end.


----------



## Lip Ripper

TreednNC said:


> You know kenny...I didnt drive through the ATM and break those rods that way....was actually a blue marlin blitz down at the inlet on finger mullet heads....whata ya do with a 1000lber hits a spiked rod and decides to go back to the gulf stream?  I'z jus tryin to keep it a secret at the time  jk jk jk for those w/o a sense of humor.....
> 
> 
> Back to the knots.....should make an Excel chart with double line connections on the Y axis, connection knots and variations of raps on the X and then fill in the average breaking strength after three properly tied knots like youre doing now.....and keep it at say 17tri to 50 ande or whatever you use....just compile some data.................might be as useless as a boar hog with t!ts but atleast if somebody asks which knot is best, we could defer them the chart.......the could look to see which knots they can tie and then check the strength. Really wouldnt take that long if the control was the line and the scale, and the variable the knots. Probably could make a pretty good chart as is with the data on this thread, just need to compile it. Id just about be willing to make one........hmmmm....imagine a chart with some basic connections to just compare by............no you dont realistically need a chart, and it would take some curve off for knot newbies, but it would be an interesting reference sheet for p!ssing matches


you should get that draw weight scale, and do some tests, i learned alot, plus i can tie some putrrrty knots now, even the BT!!! main thing i learned is how important it is to tie them correct, and you can put more heat to a fish than you think.


----------



## rsieminski

From all this data, did you find out what loop knot was the strongest? Like I'd use loop to lure.


----------



## TreednNC

Lip Ripper....taught myself a 'new way' to tie the Bimini tonight. I knew the Atlanta King way....found a faster way....just not so sure its as strong...will conduct further testing and report back


----------



## Lip Ripper

rsieminski said:


> From all this data, did you find out what loop knot was the strongest? Like I'd use loop to lure.


i havent even gotten to them yet


----------



## eric

you really dont need to SH>beauty.

you can just fold the line in two and tie it like that.

or just use single line, i havent noticed a difference yet. lip ripper care to experiment on that?? slim with single or double line.


----------



## gone_fishing

I think this needs to go to the Bible at the bottom at the forums.


----------



## BubbaBlue

What a great thread. Bible bound fer sure. Thanks for doing this Lip Ripper. 

I would also like to add a test request to the pot when you get the chance.

Different flavors of dropper loops in mono and how the loop affects main line strength. I'm less concerned about the loop strength. 


Last year about this time I started using a new loop called a bloodnight knot for teasers and have had good luck with it. 










It needs spit lube to lay down properly.

Please test main line strength with the above knot against standard surgeon's and dropper loops.


Surgeon's loop.











Dropper loop.












I know that the standard dropper is stronger than the other two, but would like to know by how much.

Thanks...
.


----------



## Lip Ripper

BubbaBlue said:


> What a great thread. Bible bound fer sure. Thanks for doing this Lip Ripper.
> 
> I would also like to add a test request to the pot when you get the chance.
> 
> Different flavors of dropper loops in mono and how the loop affects main line strength. I'm less concerned about the loop strength.
> 
> 
> Last year about this time I started using a new loop called a bloodnight knot for teasers and have had good luck with it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It needs spit lube to lay down properly.
> 
> Please test main line strength with the above knot against standard surgeon's and dropper loops.
> 
> 
> Surgeon's loop.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dropper loop.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know that the standard dropper is stronger than the other two, but would like to know by how much.
> 
> Thanks...
> .


blood night knot---------11.50

triple surgeon------------10.66

dropper loop--------------12.66

this is pulling on the single lines.


----------



## Drumdum

*OK unorthadox testing...*

Tied a slim beauty with clinch as shown in diagrams,tied a slim beauty with uni.. The uni was stronger in my testing.. Then tied the slim beauty to 17 with 50 shocker at one end,then tied the same 17 with a spider to a no-name into the 50 shocker at the other end.. I pulled the two against each other it was no contest,spider no-name broke the slim beauty.. This is kind of unfair imo,because the slim beauty was tied as a single line connection.. 
Have some time on my hands since it has blown like crazy for the past couple of days,so may do some more testing as well.. I'm pulling them against each other instead of using scales..

Next might try slim beauty against albright...


----------



## BubbaBlue

Lip Ripper said:


> blood night knot---------11.50
> 
> triple surgeon------------10.66
> 
> dropper loop--------------12.66
> 
> this is pulling on the single lines.


Cool.
That tracks with my "fish on" tests, but I'm surprised the surgeon is as strong as it is. 

With the dropper being 12.66, I would have put money on the surgeon running around 8 to 9. 

Learn something new every day.

thanks...
.


----------



## CrawFish

did you ever have a chance to test the bimini to no-name test? 

Oh.. I found a new way, well to me anyway, to tie the SH. Using the double line and make a little loop, hook that loop on the reel handle, then bring the other loop and wrap around 3 times like you would with when you tie a clinch knot and use that same loop to go back throw the loop that you make with the double line. When tying this way, the SH loop comes out shorter and easier to use with a no-name.


----------



## dandrew

trowpa said:


> dandrew - in the same boat - report back your results and I'll do the same. Thanks


Tried out the DO to Slim Beauty this weekend. Cast great and had no problems. It's a keeper!


----------



## Lip Ripper

CrawFish said:


> did you ever have a chance to test the bimini to no-name test?
> 
> Oh.. I found a new way, well to me anyway, to tie the SH. Using the double line and make a little loop, hook that loop on the reel handle, then bring the other loop and wrap around 3 times like you would with when you tie a clinch knot and use that same loop to go back throw the loop that you make with the double line. When tying this way, the SH loop comes out shorter and easier to use with a no-name.


BT to NON
22.83lb


----------



## Drumdum

CrawFish said:


> did you ever have a chance to test the bimini to no-name test?
> 
> Oh.. I found a new way, well to me anyway, to tie the SH. Using the double line and make a little loop, hook that loop on the reel handle, then bring the other loop and wrap around 3 times like you would with when you tie a clinch knot and use that same loop to go back throw the loop that you make with the double line. When tying this way, the SH loop comes out shorter and easier to use with a no-name.


 That is the "new way" I've been tieing it Teo... Works fast and loop can be made much smaller for the no-name..


----------



## Drumdum

Lip Ripper said:


> BT to NON
> 22.83lb


 Exactly one lb of difference between bimini and spider hitch.. There is quite a bit of difference in the speed of tieing the two,wid ole eyes. So,spider fer me..


----------



## Cdog

Drumdum said:


> That is the "new way" I've been tieing it Teo... Works fast and loop can be made much smaller for the no-name..


One of yall will have to show that to me in person. I can't figure it out from th description.

Never mind, after re reading a couple of times and trying it I got it. Was able to shorten my spider in half. Thanks Teo.


----------



## chinookhead

just for comparison, u may as well try the "perfection loop".....supposedly it's suppose to be one of the strongest loop knots and "supposedly" tests at 90%.....but who knows? 
http://www.animatedknots.com/perfec...ge=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com


----------



## Lip Ripper

chinookhead said:


> just for comparison, u may as well try the "perfection loop".....supposedly it's suppose to be one of the strongest loop knots and "supposedly" tests at 90%.....but who knows?
> http://www.animatedknots.com/perfec...ge=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com


already tested that one and i like it alot.

21.12


----------



## chinookhead

Wow...that perfection loop is for "real"....it's very easy to tie and sticks out straight and has not broken once on me yet which now makes me happy since it's become my go-to dropper loop.


----------



## eric

dandrew said:


> Tried out the DO to Slim Beauty this weekend. Cast great and had no problems. It's a keeper!


its not DO to slim. the name of knot is just slimbeauty.. but it casts great doesnt it? just goes right thru guides even with power.


----------



## AtlantaKing

ooeric said:


> its not DO to slim. the name of knot is just slimbeauty.. but it casts great doesnt it? just goes right thru guides even with power.


Heh, yeah, and slips after a couple of hours in the water. The trouble with the SB is that the tag ends have to be cut short since they stick out perpendicular. Because the running line is typically small diameter, smooth and slick, it'll slip out and the knot will come undone. I've lost a couple of decent fish because of it which is why I went back to the back to back nail or the no-name.


----------



## eric

dont use a cinch, you can use a nail or hangman knot on the line instead. and itll hold.


----------



## AtlantaKing

Well, then, it becomes a back to back nail knot instead of the slim beauty


----------



## chinookhead

AtlantaKing said:


> Heh, yeah, and slips after a couple of hours in the water. The trouble with the SB is that the tag ends have to be cut short since they stick out perpendicular. Because the running line is typically small diameter, smooth and slick, it'll slip out and the knot will come undone. I've lost a couple of decent fish because of it which is why I went back to the back to back nail or the no-name.


I had the same exact experience with the slim beauty, one randomly slipped while reeling it in and the other slipped when I pulled weeds off it (at least I didn't lose the rig)....it went through the guides just fine, but teh slippage makes it a no go for me....I then used the improved albright which goes through the ballistic 35-405 with no slapping, but slaps with my 10 foot lami surf king....which I will tolerate when compared to the low breaking strength of the "standard leader knot" that I've been using.


----------



## Drumdum

AtlantaKing said:


> Heh, yeah, and slips after a couple of hours in the water. The trouble with the SB is that the tag ends have to be cut short since they stick out perpendicular. Because the running line is typically small diameter, smooth and slick, it'll slip out and the knot will come undone. I've lost a couple of decent fish because of it which is why I went back to the back to back nail or the no-name.


 I tied with the tri plus in testing it against the no-name spider.. I could make it slip EVERYTIME with the normal clinch.. Put a uni in it and it held,but still broke when tied against a spider no-name.. This new tri plus is much slicker,in the chartruese color,it will slip with a clinch knot,promise.. Matter of fact it has slipped when splicing it to itself, to put new line on with a four wrap uni...


----------



## rsieminski

Has anyone tested this phenomenon with the SB? 

I really had faith in that one....SH!T. What's a good replacement for a shock leader connection that'll sail through the eyes? SH to No-name but...The no-name knot looks like that 90deg tag might slip also?? 

And the no-name with the 50# shock looks like I'll be ripping eyes off or loosing tackle.

What to do?


----------



## TreednNC

rsieminski said:


> Has anyone tested this phenomenon with the SB?
> 
> I really had faith in that one....SH!T. What's a good replacement for a shock leader connection that'll sail through the eyes? SH to No-name but...The no-name knot looks like that 90deg tag might slip also??
> 
> And the no-name with the 50# shock looks like I'll be ripping eyes off or loosing tackle.
> 
> What to do?


SH to No name is small enough to go through guides on a rod big enough to need that kinda connection. No name wont slip....if Drumdum says itll work, itll work. You can bet your last chance rod n reel on that


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## Digger

I used the noname on Fly rods and spinners for 'poons in FL. The Combination works just fine for surf rods.


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## Lip Ripper

i just tied a bunch (slim beauty) and when i clip the tag ends short, some of them did slip. but then i doubled the line(17lb) and that took care of the problem. i do like the knot, but the sh-nn is still better.


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## sand flea

This has become one of the best threads ever posted on P&S. It's Bible-bound, even if it's long as hell.


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## AtlantaKing

Before it gets closed, can someone summarize all of the findings?


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## Lip Ripper

AtlantaKing said:


> Before it gets closed, can someone summarize all of the findings?


im trying to think of the best way to do it. have any ideas?


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## Cdog

AtlantaKing said:


> Before it gets closed, can someone summarize all of the findings?


Spider hitch to no name rules and Shooters albright sucks...LOL


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## TreednNC

Lip Ripper said:


> im trying to think of the best way to do it. have any ideas?



PDF of an Excel file lol 

Connection Knots
L
o
o
p


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## trowpa

Lip Ripper said:


> im trying to think of the best way to do it. have any ideas?


chart? spreadsheet?


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## AtlantaKing

Well, if it can wait until tomorrow, I'll summarize it all up and post it. Treed, as much fun as a PDF of an .xls would be, I think it would be extraneous. I think a simple list would suffice as we're not extrapolating any results, merely listing them. 

Hey, Sand Flea, after it gets put into the bible, can it be reopened to insert, say, pics of all the knots? That way, when a newbie's looking at all of the fancy connections, he/she can figure out what it looks like instead of seeing a bunch of acronyms.


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## Lip Ripper

AtlantaKing said:


> Well, if it can wait until tomorrow, I'll summarize it all up and post it. Treed, as much fun as a PDF of an .xls would be, I think it would be extraneous. I think a simple list would suffice as we're not extrapolating any results, merely listing them.
> 
> Hey, Sand Flea, after it gets put into the bible, can it be reopened to insert, say, pics of all the knots? That way, when a newbie's looking at all of the fancy connections, he/she can figure out what it looks like instead of seeing a bunch of acronyms.


i was thinking along the same lines. like a list of knots, breaking point, and next to each knot a link showing how to tie them. unfortunatly, i am lacking the computer skills to do all of that.


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## AtlantaKing

I can do it, but it'll take me a while...:redface: That's a lot of knots to tie!


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## Lip Ripper

AtlantaKing said:


> I can do it, but it'll take me a while...:redface: That's a lot of knots to tie!


your tellin me! i have about 50yds of a 400yd spool left

one thing to consider is all the knots that use a doubled main line, and use the same knot to double it, will break at the same point. because in most cases that is the weak point.


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## CrawFish

No Name Knot.

Just trim the tag at and angle so it would go to the guides much easier and you don't have to worry about it slip. Just trim it close to the knot on the top and angle out on the bottom.


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## sand flea

AtlantaKing said:


> Well, if it can wait until tomorrow, I'll summarize it all up and post it. Treed, as much fun as a PDF of an .xls would be, I think it would be extraneous. I think a simple list would suffice as we're not extrapolating any results, merely listing them.
> 
> Hey, Sand Flea, after it gets put into the bible, can it be reopened to insert, say, pics of all the knots? That way, when a newbie's looking at all of the fancy connections, he/she can figure out what it looks like instead of seeing a bunch of acronyms.


Once a thread is in the Bible, it's locked. But I can go back and manually insert images if necessary.

Can somebody sum this sucker up? It's huge.


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## rsieminski

I don't know if you're still testing, but...I don't think "The Leader Knot" was tested:
http://neilmackellow.sea-angler.org/knot5.html
this is off a pro distance caters site. He's a former World Champ.


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## CrawFish

rsieminski said:


> I don't know if you're still testing, but...I don't think "The Leader Knot" was tested:
> http://neilmackellow.sea-angler.org/knot5.html
> this is off a pro distance caters site. He's a former World Champ.


You might want to read the first couple of pages of this thread. If my memory is correct, the knot break at around 11lbs. Test lines were 17 Sufix Tri Plus and 50shockleader.


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## Lip Ripper

yea, the knot in the 17 wasnt really a factor, because it would always break at the overhand.


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## CrawFish

I remember reading about that. You can improve that knot by doing the double overhand and make it a slim beauty. Isn't that how you tie that knot?


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## Openboat

*Thanks again Lip Ripper!*

tests done using a bow draw weight scale.

17lb suffix-tri to Ande 50lb

just suffix(no knots)-------------24.33lb

improved Albright(10 wraps)---17.00lb 

spider hitch to no-name----------21.83lb

overhand to uni------------------11.66lb

BT to NON------------------------22.83lb


double surgen (shock) to slim beauty----19.66

doubled main line nail knot to noname ---22.00lb

blood knot-(4 wraps to each side)--------12.16 lbs 

4turn SH to 3turn UNI(shock) to 5turn UNI (double line)--- 21.5

SH to OVERHAND(shock) to 4turn UNI(double line)---14.66

20 turn bimini twist to no-name----22.83lbs


The next three knots are using doubled main line with no knot in them(just wrapped both ends of the 17 around the scale and pulled the shock), only reason i did this was to test the stronger knots. to double the main line(in a fishing situation) there has to be a knot in it and the line would break at that knot
1) 4turn nail(doubled main line) to 3 turn uni (shock)----25lb 

2) 4turn uni(doubled main line) to 3 turn nail(shock)------40lb!!! broke on the nail!!!

3) nail(shock) to nail(doubled main line)-----------29.5lb




Loops
TO-20.66
PL-21.12
SH-21.50
BT-22.83

Droppers
blood night knot---------11.50
triple surgeon------------10.66
dropper loop--------------12.66

As for how much pressure can you put on a fish

penn 525 mag on Om 12ft heavy with 17tri and 50lb Ande

the most I could comfortably put on it-----9lbs

the max I could possibly put on it-------14lbs

I used the Albright knot just to see, if the knot is stronger than the drag then I would not be able to put enough force on the knot to break it.
well the knot held and at 14lbs the drag began to give some line. it looks like you pick up a couple lbs. of resistance from the guides.

by the way, at 14lbs my arms were shaking like a leaf, and that OM was BENT!!!!! you would never be able to fight a fish like that.


525mag

with the drag tightened as hard as I could get it, and with a full spool.

pulling slowly------10lbs

fast yank-----------12lbs


penn555

slow pull---------12lbs

fast yank---------15lbs


this goes against what the manufacturer says, but I saw these results with my own eyes.

Also after a cast your spool won’t be full, so those numbers will go up. lucky for me I have another 525 with about 100yds of line off of it.

penn525(after 100yd cast)
slow pull-------12lbs
fast yank-------14lbs

abbreviations

SH=spider hitch
BT=bimini twist
OH=overhand knot
TO=triple overhand
PL=perfection loop
NON=no name knot


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