# hatteras vandals



## moby dick (Jan 5, 2007)

In the paper today it said that there was some vandalism done and it would cause more closings what happen with that?


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## JeepMike (Feb 4, 2008)

lol man da beaches be gone! It's disgusting... so called "vandals" are neatly placing the boundary sticks in piles and not walking on the nesting areas at all. The horror!!!!!!!!! 

It's the f*$%ing hippies and enviros doing it... I just hope we catch one red handed...


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## sand flea (Oct 24, 1999)

I'm sorry, but this whole "the bird people are doing it!!!" story needs to stop. They've already won. Why would they jeopardize their victory by tearing fences down? Let's use a little common sense in laying blame. It's one or two morons making us all look bad.

I'm throwing down the gauntlet here. How about some locals stepping up and agreeing to work _with_ the park service to watch these closure areas to prove that--as much as we don't like the decision--we're not just a bunch of dumb ******** hellbent on causing trouble?

Or we could just keep complaining on internet boards and signing useless petitions and screaming like a stuck pig while the other side laughs at us as we self-destruct...


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## fish4kings2 (Jan 25, 2007)

*web cast*

if there is anyone of us willing to take matters into our own hands, we need to start a web cast or due a documentry of what the _ell is going on in the OBX!!!! just my 2 cents


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## edgotbait (Sep 29, 2004)

would love to help sandflea but i live in vb what can i do ?
what is needed is to set some infer red game trail traps out and we will have the culprit 
i doubt NPS has such things 
im wiilling to cough up some cash towards this goal

there would be no visible flash and no one would ever know it was there until there pic was on the front page of the paper


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## sudshunter (Jan 20, 2008)

edgotbait said:


> would love to help sandflea but i live in vb what can i do ?
> what is needed is to set some infer red game trail traps out and we will have the culprit
> i doubt NPS has such things
> im wiilling to cough up some cash towards this goal
> ...


I agree with you, I also would donate to the cause ! SOMETHING HAS TO BE DONE NOW!!!


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## Hannibal (Aug 10, 2007)

sand flea said:


> I'm sorry, but this whole "the bird people are doing it!!!" story needs to stop. They've already won. Why would they jeopardize their victory by tearing fences down? Let's use a little common sense in laying blame. It's one or two morons making us all look bad.
> ...



Are you that naive? They haven't won WHAT THEY WANT yet. They WANT total beach closure and the consent decree DIDN'T give them that. It DID give them ability to get full closure though. 

The process is simple, the implemented a process that would extend closures for each occurance of vandalism. Basically, punish the entire class due to one persons actions.

So, for the enviro whackos, this creates the needed loophole to get more beach closed. They simply walk out, knock down a few signs and "mission accomplished." 

Why in the world would "our" guys do it? What motive do the have? Now, what motive does the "other side" have? Come on, use your head. 

The consent decree never would have passed/gone though with massive closures. However, this loophole ultimately gives that. They just need to give the NPS a reason to enforce the rules.

Another point, you mention "Why would they risk their victory?" Do you mean to tell me that if one enviro. whacko gets caught red handed while tearing down a sign, you think NPS will revoke all it's expanded closures? Please. You'd have one guy get punished (if that) while the closures stay up. There is no risk in it for them.

This whole thing was played out out a level above all our pay grades. The general public got bent over while being told to take it.


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## AbuMike (Sep 3, 2007)

...Until the ramps have cables across them they have not won. Giving up is what burns my butt...


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## fish4kings2 (Jan 25, 2007)

has anyone heard of an ORV going 50mph on a beach? i juat read this on the a udubon's web page.here is the link hope it works this is my frist...........http://magazine.audubon.org/features0701/incite.html


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## JeepMike (Feb 4, 2008)

sand flea said:


> I'm sorry, but this whole "the bird people are doing it!!!" story needs to stop. They've already won. Why would they jeopardize their victory by tearing fences down? Let's use a little common sense in laying blame. It's one or two morons making us all look bad.
> 
> I'm throwing down the gauntlet here. How about some locals stepping up and agreeing to work _with_ the park service to watch these closure areas to prove that--as much as we don't like the decision--we're not just a bunch of dumb ******** hellbent on causing trouble?
> 
> Or we could just keep complaining on internet boards and signing useless petitions and screaming like a stuck pig while the other side laughs at us as we self-destruct...



Dude it doesn't matter whose vandalizing the signs, they need to stop. Most people don't even know about the beach closures. Sure, _we _all do, because we fish and live and breath by these closures. We booked more advanced reservations yesterday for next year in my company than we ever have any year previous; our numbers are going UP. In the fall our numbers will hurt, because fisherman will not be coming down. When NC realizes their cash cow county (Dare) is not producing, then it will wake up. A bunch of pissed off fisherman does not move the wheels of the government as effectively as we all want it to. It takes time and effort constantly applied to get this enacted. I doubt the beach will remain closed forever. The minute these closures start affecting the general tourist population, we will see some change. The minute a plover is spotted in front of a few billion dollars worth of real estate, you guys better believe some major players will get involved. I'm convinced this is how the world works. As much as it sucks, atleast we don't live in a 3rd world country.


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## eric (Oct 24, 2007)

sand flea said:


> I'm sorry, but this whole "the bird people are doing it!!!" story needs to stop. They've already won. Why would they jeopardize their victory by tearing fences down? Let's use a little common sense in laying blame. It's one or two morons making us all look bad.
> 
> I'm throwing down the gauntlet here. How about some locals stepping up and agreeing to work _with_ the park service to watch these closure areas to prove that--as much as we don't like the decision--we're not just a bunch of dumb ******** hellbent on causing trouble?
> 
> Or we could just keep complaining on internet boards and signing useless petitions and screaming like a stuck pig while the other side laughs at us as we self-destruct...


why would you tear down fences?
easy , cause we already lost. it wont matter if they enlarge the area, since its already closed _anyways_

I for one, wont be coming down this year. AND it WAS gonna be my first time down at Hatteras
since im not native to the area, i really dont know WHERE i can fish, ya know?
and im one of the type of tourists which many shops and inns would depend on me for their income.


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## Richmond Medic (May 28, 2002)

man.... by reading that article posted here i dont know how i can live with myself anymore. i didnt know by being a responsibe orv operator comming down two times a year, driving responsibly, and picking up ALL my trash, i was to blame for the decline of turtles and birds on the obx. how can we all do this?.... WTF ever. as far as seeing the fellow fisherman just leaving sharks and skates on the beach "because we dont like them" i have NEVER seen that. if i ever did i would say something to the person or throw it back myself. thats one of those things that MAY have happened once and will be used against us. the same as the "50 mph" speeder. all these things added together paint us as just a bunch of dumbass ******** that dont care about anything. all we want to do is drink beer and tear [email protected]#t up!!!! its sad that the actions of a selfsish ignorant few will ruin it for the rest of us....


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## AbuMike (Sep 3, 2007)

ooeric said:


> why would you tear down fences?
> easy , cause we already lost. it wont matter if they enlarge the area, since its already closed _anyways_
> 
> I for one, wont be coming down this year. AND it WAS gonna be my first time down at Hatteras
> ...


...Statement like this really flames my a$$. We have not lost until there's 0 access. It's thinking like your that is making it harder to live with and win the battle. If you think there's nowhere to fish just stay up North and that will leave me with more places. Most people don't have a real clue about whats going on. Only what they read and don't understand. Why don't ya'll come down and talk and see for yourself... Sorry but it really burns me up because next is going to be AI and then the Striper beaches up North. Don't roll over and die. Stand up and fight because your house is next.

You know, you could come on down and walk to The Point and talk to to some great folks and maybe learn a thing or 2.


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## JeepMike (Feb 4, 2008)

Amen Brotha!!!!! *amennnn!!!!!!*


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## moby dick (Jan 5, 2007)

I am 43yr. started going to obx and hatteras with my grandfather 36yr. ago.We got on the beach at sandbridge drove all the down fish all the way.He and Russell or Russell open the fishing hole in Avon every weekend was ride the beach and fish we all looked out for one another and the beach,we all cared.We lost sandbridge we didn't stand together let's not make the same mistake, we can stay together like this and talking back and forth then it was alot of phone calls and talk on weekends.Its up to us I for one would like to take my grandkids to fish obx so hell help the kids.


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## Brooksobx (Feb 10, 2008)

I've been out of town and just catching up on the news. Sand Flea, you are soo off base it's unbelievable. I really hope you read Hannibal's follow-up and wake up and smell the roses. There's more that one way to skin a cat and until every inch our beaches are closed to ORV's, Audubon and DOW will keep on skinnin'. For some strange reason you think these organizations are honorable and trustworthy people who would never stoop to such levels of behavior. WAKE UP MAN!!!


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## hopkins11 (May 9, 2008)

Outsider looking in here - Although SandFlea may be off base in his assumptions, he does have a point that we should pony up and monitor these areas to catch the vandals. Its the only way to stop the expansion and settle the argument above.

We're all angry about what's happened but we should try to control those aspects that we can. If the park service can't catch 'em, then we should at least try...


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## saltandsand (Nov 29, 2007)

fish4kings2 said:


> has anyone heard of an ORV going 50mph on a beach? i juat read this on the a udubon's web page.here is the link hope it works this is my frist...........http://magazine.audubon.org/features0701/incite.html


That article makes clear that they are watching the fishing websites. Notice the reports in the article about stuff said on the fishing sites. Remember, everything on the board is public access.

Can someone even drive 50 m.p.h. on the beach and not risk wiping out? Let them speak, their baseless facts will speak for themselves.


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## saltandsand (Nov 29, 2007)

Who cares whether Flea's assumption about who is doing what is true or not? Like I've said and he is also saying, the locals need to get involved and start monitoring. Without the monitoring the anglers loose in many ways....do we need to review these many ways?


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## sudshunter (Jan 20, 2008)

CAMERAS!!! they need to set up cameras in area! I also agree the locals need to set up some kind of monitoring system to catch these vandals,we'll know who they are then and. hell the tourist could watch out also. I hate to say it but it just might be uninformed fisherman,surfers,ect... coming down on vacation not knowing about the closures and getting P.O. and screwing up everything for everybody!!!!


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

Brooksobx said:


> I've been out of town and just catching up on the news. Sand Flea, you are soo off base it's unbelievable. I really hope you read Hannibal's follow-up and wake up and smell the roses. There's more that one way to skin a cat and until every inch our beaches are closed to ORV's, Audubon and DOW will keep on skinnin'. For some strange reason you think these organizations are honorable and trustworthy people who would never stoop to such levels of behavior. WAKE UP MAN!!!


Wrong !!!

What's off base here is anyone jumping to conclusions- and SandFlea isn't saying it wasn't them- he's saying WE should not be saying it WAS them- and I agree.

Just for argument's sake- I can allow for the fact it may be *plausible* that someone from the "other" camp did the damage, but I have to admit the *probability* in all likelihood is a shortsighted individual(s) that is ticked off about losing access and responding in an inappropriate manner. 

As suggested I'm sure some folks are showing up without a clue about the closings and they are not happy about it. 

If we are going to speculate- then face the facts- it is* much, much *more likely the damage was done by a p'oed fisherman.

Some fishermen are class acts, *some aren't*- *fact.*


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## saltandsand (Nov 29, 2007)

Surf Cat said:


> Wrong !!!
> 
> What's off base here is anyone jumping to conclusions- and SandFlea isn't saying it wasn't them- he's saying WE should not be saying it WAS them- and I agree.
> 
> ...


Speculate all you'd like but saying what your saying should be thought through carefully before you say it. Geee whiz.


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

saltandsand said:


> Speculate all you'd like but saying what your saying should be thought through carefully before you say it. Geee whiz.



Which is exactly the point I'm trying to make. 

Catch the culprits- and if it is one of them- they should be dealt with much more harshly for their devious behavior- but making public announcements pointing fingers based on mere speculation is poor form. It only serves to create a mob mentality.

Anyone that is thinking that it is more likely a devious plot than a wayward individual is in need of a reality check. Shoot we could all be wrong- it might be some youngin interested neither in birds or fishing, simply poe'd cause he couldn't take his Daddy's Hummer out on the beach- but why speculate at all ? It serves no purpose.


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## surfchunker (Apr 10, 2006)

*I for one*

am coming down for my regular 2 one week vacations ... that was a great read about the AS .... they sure can spin a tell .... they forget to mention that it was the park service that run over that poor little chicky ... and yes they do monitor the boards ....... and a mob mentalility is not going to help ..... sad part is even if we catch them more beach still gets closed down ... doesn't matter which side if any they are on ...


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## AbuMike (Sep 3, 2007)

Offbase or not WE HAVE NOT LOST YET. I will continue to go down, I will continue to see some good people and friends, I will continue to eat Apple Uglies and I will continue to Support Free and Open Beaches....Like I said "it ain't over till all the ramps have cables across them"


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## JAM (Jul 22, 2002)

*You all still don't get it..*

Its not just closed to ORV's its closed to HUMANS.. Can't walk, can't crawl, No recreation.. Period...We ain't done fighting.. When you stay home, the other side smiles.. For all you are hurting is fellow fisher people, and friends of such.. Do what ya want.. I will NEVER STOP FIGHTING for whats MINE....Part of the reason we are at where we are is APATHY .... Can't tell ya how many times over the last 7 years that I have heard "they will never close the POINT" Well folks they have.. and not only that they have closed 80 % of the Park to recreation.. HUM Parks Recreation what the hell was I thinkin... JAM


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## sudshunter (Jan 20, 2008)

AirDown said:


> Offbase or not WE HAVE NOT LOST YET. I will continue to go down, I will continue to see some good people and friends, I will continue to eat Apple Uglies and I will continue to Support Free and Open Beaches....Like I said "it ain't over till all the ramps have cables across them"


AMEN!!!!


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## saltandsand (Nov 29, 2007)

Surf Cat said:


> Which is exactly the point I'm trying to make.
> 
> Catch the culprits- and if it is one of them- they should be dealt with much more harshly for their devious behavior- but making public announcements pointing fingers based on mere speculation is poor form. It only serves to create a mob mentality.
> 
> Anyone that is thinking that it is more likely a devious plot than a wayward individual is in need of a reality check. Shoot we could all be wrong- it might be some youngin interested neither in birds or fishing, simply poe'd cause he couldn't take his Daddy's Hummer out on the beach- but why speculate at all ? It serves no purpose.


But you speculated when you said it's much much more likely... (and the rest was so upsetting that I can't even repeat it)...


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

I also qualified my remarks as speculation and statistical probabilities- on the other hand we have people making posts like this-





> So the eco-terrorists have been damaging the stuff on purpose so the closure area is increased. Its all part of their master plan to shut it ALL down.


That my friend amounts to libel - tho no one was named specifically it is stating something as fact with out any supporting evidence. It is nothing more than a poor attempt at mis-direction and will be seen for what it is. As long as such statements are made we appear to be childishly lashing out over the closures. When "they" (they meaning the public at large and more importantly the powers that be) read such statements it gets back to other folks and reported as- 

"Those folks over on P&S are making unsubstantiated statements of fact concerning XYZ"

It makes us all look bad- and if it goes to far- carries the potential for lawsuits.


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## saltandsand (Nov 29, 2007)

Except where specifically enlarged by state law, group libel is restricted to the unprotected category of "hate speech." Enlargement of the category must be narrow in order to be held as Constitutional. 

The example in this case has absolutely ZERO chance of being actionable as group libel as it is not based on speech against a recognized group with standing (e.g., race, gender, sexual orientation, etc.) Any action would be dismissed as being without basis. 

When it comes to speech I agree that such statements do not enhance the image of the speaker and may be inferred to represent the group with whom the speaker is identified. But no lawsuits are possible here. Even if a lawsuit were brought, besides being dismissed for the reason stated above, there'd be less than zero chance of proving the required elements to prevail at a civil suit.

Maybe we all ought to limit speech to the things we know about and stop fanning the flames.


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

I'm not going to engage in a senseless debate over whether the particular instance quoted is actionable or not-

my last words were - *if it goes to far*-

it carries the *potential* for a lawsuit.


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## sand flea (Oct 24, 1999)

Let me restate: we look like freaking buffoons pissing and moaning on the internet about who tore the fences down and signing useless petitions.

My original point is that anyone who lives near these closure areas should volunteer to monitor them and stop anyone who is breaking the law, period.


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## saltandsand (Nov 29, 2007)

Surf Cat said:


> I'm not going to engage in a senseless debate over whether the particular instance quoted is actionable or not-
> 
> my last words were - *if it goes to far*-
> 
> it carries the *potential* for a lawsuit.



Okay. Goes without saying that you can sue anyone for anything so, sure, there's potential, but remember frivilous suits can lead to adverse judgments against the initial petitioner. Okay?


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## Drumdum (Jan 6, 2003)

sand flea said:


> Let me restate: we look like freaking buffoons pissing and moaning on the internet about who tore the fences down and signing useless petitions.
> 
> My original point is that anyone who lives near these closure areas should volunteer to monitor them and stop anyone who is breaking the law, period.


 Flea,anyone near these closures that gives a chit about access,does just that..... Although,if someone has already broken the law,they make the closures bigger.. The decree makes turning someone in a "loose loose",IF they have already done the deed..  Seems to be no real answer,and yes many volunteer that are out there,but you can't watch it all..
There are going to be folks that are ignorant of these closures,what to and what not to do,there are flyers being handed out in tackle shops.. 
You can't hand flyers out at ramps without a permit. Even with a permit,you cannot stop a vehicle to hand it out,they MUST STOP voluntarly.. 
These flyers,info from the radio and fellow fishermen can cure ignorance...


*No one can cure stupid..*

PS I agree pissing and moaning on the internet about closures is usless and fruitless,and much is just venting frustration,which should be vented elsewhere.. All that said,letters to gov reps ect,letting them know what the fishermen and hunter feel are not useless,this needs to be done.. If no one cries out to the government and lets them know this decree is unfair then we loose all,not just CHNSS,imho....


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## DrumintheSuds (Nov 19, 2007)

Couple of points:

First I agree with JAM. If you love Hatteras and don't go because of this mess don't piss and moan when it is gone pure and simple. Every time a business closes the value of Hatteras as a recreational destination goes down and there is less bargaining power to fight the "liberal money".

Secondly this is nothing more than the results of a political based environmental socialist movement in this country. If you feel like fighting you had better start fighting this machine just as hard. The prices on gas that it takes to drive to and on that beach are a DIRECT result of stupid people voting socialist liberals into every branch of government. Do what you can to stop it because the "republic" you live in is slowly becoming a democracy before your very eyes...


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

saltandsand said:


> Okay. Goes without saying that you can sue anyone for anything so, sure, there's potential, but remember frivilous suits can lead to adverse judgments against the initial petitioner. Okay?



I think it really just boils down to a question of ethics. Ethics can sometimes be a fine line to walk, but in this case it's very clear to me. I saw nothing wrong with making a point that a certain group may have the motive for taking an action.

On the other hand saying "they did it" based only upon that suspicion (motive) is highly unethical. 

Of course some will want to justify this by saying who cares, look how their behaving, We're just fighting fire with fire,etc.

Two wrongs don't make a right.
Using the argument that your just stooping to the oppositions level by lowering your own standards? 

Earlier I made a comment about some having class and some don't. In my way of thinking a person acts ethical because it's the right thing to do,_ not_ because he's concerned about lawsuits. 

This one's been beat to death, Kenny is right we need to get back to focusing on what is important, I just implore everyone to go about that business with a little class and dignity. 

:fishing:


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## totallybeachin (May 31, 2008)

*It Ain't Over*

Look guys, I know it sucks for you. 
Mostly a lose/lose situation for you/us. Some stupid kid knocks down a sign you lose beach, some eco-nut knocks down a sign, you lose beach. If it's one of our own doing it, it's plain shameful.:--|
I for one(five of us) will be spending much of my summer in OBX. I live in Rocky Mount, just 3 hours from most of you. I have worked on getting my 3 kids into fishing and camping. Now that they are willing and ready, we will be there. Whatever beaches have open access, we will go to. If I can drive on and camp on the beach I would love it, if I can't then I won't. If I have to stay in a campground and walk to the beach then I will. 
I am a reasonable and resposible person and I'm trying to raise my kids in the same fashion. I look forward to seeing many of you at the beach this summer:fishing:


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