# Before the white man came



## Flyersfan (Dec 5, 2003)

I'm not American Indian, I'm the 3rd generation to be born here and not in Ireland, but when I go out fishing some days with todays latest lures and catch nothing I can only imagine what it must have been like to be here in the say 1600's 
and cast out of of Sandbridge or Lynhaven. I'm sure you wouldn't have spent all day without catching a fish. I really think that comercial fishing has taken too much. How much fish does the market demand. They take and if it's not sold it's cat food, but they take it regardless. It just pisses me off. No sense of respect for nature. I would like to catch fish more often.


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## Cdog (Mar 18, 2002)

*Don't foget us.....*



Flyersfan said:


> I'm not American Indian, I'm the 3rd generation to be born here and not in Ireland, but when I go out fishing some days with todays latest lures and catch nothing I can only imagine what it must have been like to be here in the say 1600's
> and cast out of of Sandbridge or Lynhaven. I'm sure you wouldn't have spent all day without catching a fish. I really think that comercial fishing has taken too much. How much fish does the market demand. They take and if it's not sold it's cat food, but they take it regardless. It just pisses me off. No sense of respect for nature. I would like to catch fish more often.


Everyone is so quick to blame the comms(me included) but don't think we don't make an impact.

Have you ever been told how great the "old days" were? "We used to catch blues and stack em like cordwood." Sad thing is is sometimes that was the truth.

A friend of mine that used to live on Hatt Island told me of a blue blitz he got into one day. A blue on every cast and everyone 10-15#. He got two and put them in the truck and then went and strted gathering the 2-3 pound trout that were beaching themselves to get away from the blues. He watched guys catching blue after blue and toss them on the beach. After all was said and done there was a pile of two to three hundered blues left to rot on the beach. That my friends is a sad story.


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## Wilbur (May 19, 2003)

We used to do a lot of hunting for Indian artifacts up and down Great Neck Rd back in the 70's, between the bridge and Broad Bay a Cheso camp existed for 5,000 years. there are oyster shells there that are over 14" long, my buddy found a fish vertabrate in a fire pit exposed during construction of a house that was all most 2'' in diameter, looks like a striper, saw one from a 40 lber once was about 1'' diam. I read an account written by one of the first explorers of Lynnhaven who said that the entire bottom of the inlet was covered with oysters, and the water was clear enough to see the bottom in 10' of water. The amount of development has caused changes that never can be reversed. I read something on another site once where a biologist in MD. said the only way to save the Bay is to sterilze every person who lives in the watershed and in about 500 years it would return to what it once was. I know that sounds radical but if you think how few Indians there were here then and how minimal their impact was compared to the millions who live here now you got to realize that the Bay will never be anything like it was even 50 or 100years ago.


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## Flyersfan (Dec 5, 2003)

Cdog, what I take I eat, what I don't eat I put back, it's that simple, I don't feed the birds, I know catching fish is fun and I would like to do so in the future. Last week down at Little Island park I caught two nice healthy young stripers about 18 inches each, there was nothing stopping me from throwing them in the cooler and leaving it was at the end of the day, but ya know I know it's not right. I wasn't one of those guys back years ago slaying blues and if I was catchin' em I'd keep only enough to eat. If you take more than you can eat without going bad than maybe you should think about throwing back.


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## Flyersfan (Dec 5, 2003)

My father grew up along the Delaware bay, and he told me when he was a kid back in the 40's you could go out in 10 feet of water and see the fish going after your bait. He said that the oysters were everywhere. Great fishing at anytime of the year. We've killed bays and they won't be coming back anytime soon. He told me that the earth we clean herself, but we might not like or survive the way she does clean. Just a thought.


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## blue bird (Apr 25, 2003)

My father-in-law who got me started in surf fishing won't fish anymore because it's not like the old days. He would get mad at me for throwing back an undersized flounder because when he used to fish the surf there weren't any limits.

The problem with the fishing is more complicated than just the level of harvesting. There are enviromental changes taking place that are effecting the populations also. I live by the Nansemond River which is in poor shape due to the silt from runoff. In the banks of the river you can still see the layers of oyster rock from days gone by that the oysters were thick in there. The Indians used scallop shells for dinner plates.

What I'm trying to say is that the harvest of fish is only one piece of the puzzle in the condition of fishing in the bay. So plant every tree you possibly can, use as little fertilizer on your lawn as you can stand, and help keep the trash cleaned up.


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## Flyersfan (Dec 5, 2003)

I know what you're saying, but most of our manufacturing has gone over seas and now the bays should start to get better at least some of the pollution is gone. I would think that maybe in the future we put our brains to work and come up with ways to feed the crops and ours lawns, provide housing and still keep the bays healthy.


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## Cdog (Mar 18, 2002)

Flyersfan said:


> Cdog, what I take I eat, what I don't eat I put back, it's that simple, I don't feed the birds, I know catching fish is fun and I would like to do so in the future. Last week down at Little Island park I caught two nice healthy young stripers about 18 inches each, there was nothing stopping me from throwing them in the cooler and leaving it was at the end of the day, but ya know I know it's not right. I wasn't one of those guys back years ago slaying blues and if I was catchin' em I'd keep only enough to eat. If you take more than you can eat without going bad than maybe you should think about throwing back.


Flyersfan, sorry! All I was saying is there was serious waste by all parties, comms and recs.


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## Flyersfan (Dec 5, 2003)

Cdog, no need to be sorry! This is a forum and you didn't know if I was one of those guys in the 80's catchin' blues. I unfortunately learned my surf fishin' from my dad, who learned it from his dad, who fished the Delaware bay back in the 30's when you put a piece of squid or clam on and you just waited a little for the striper or door mat to come bitin'. We would fish that way and catch little back in the 80's. Now I've shown my Dad the new lures rods and things of my generation. The lures are much better but there are less fish.


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## Flyersfan (Dec 5, 2003)

Cdog, I think I may have met you last year back at L.I. park in Dec.


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## Cdog (Mar 18, 2002)

Flyersfan said:


> Cdog, I think I may have met you last year back at L.I. park in Dec.


Its possible, me and another guy tossing bait and you were slinging lures?????

If not, may meet ya out there soon. Head to NC alot this time of yr but would love another keeper VA fish.


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## Flyersfan (Dec 5, 2003)

I think you're right, I was throwin' bucktail and you were down at the end with eels. I talked to ya about being there in the winter and how nobody bothers ya,...ya had your truck with the woody panels right?


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## Cdog (Mar 18, 2002)

Flyersfan said:


> I think you're right, I was throwin' bucktail and you were down at the end with eels. I talked to ya about being there in the winter and how nobody bothers ya,...ya had your truck with the woody panels right?


Fraid not, according to the log, I was tossing frozen bunker and had to use 10oz to hold. A guy came up and was tossing a 6oz stingsilver I think,and was using a modified OTG cast.

Don't matter though, still look foward to meeting ya in the future.


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## Flyersfan (Dec 5, 2003)

Musta' been somebody else, any way I'll be down there Sat. with my Striper sense on


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## johnnyleo11 (Dec 17, 2003)

*Flyersfan*

An 18" rock caught out at Little Island Park is not a keeper fish. You're fishing in Virginia Coastal waters. The minimum size is 28". 18" is legit if you are in the Bay.


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## Flyersfan (Dec 5, 2003)

EXACTLY....my point is to do the right thing...not just us but the Comm's


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## jay (Feb 19, 2004)

*Yeah U Dun It It!!!*

Hi guys, some of ya'll know, I'M A 5TH GERENATION COMMERCIAL FISHERMeN AND YOU REALLY NEED TO GET YOUR ____ STRAIGHT!!! YOU DO NOT REALIZE, HOW MANY REGULATIONS WE HAVE. Before you get mad at someone or mad at something, do your research, don't just say it towards all commercial fishermen!!!


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## jay (Feb 19, 2004)

yeah home boy i'm ticked at you , here get your CRAP straight go here http://www.mrc.state.va.us/regindex.htm


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## shaggy (Jun 18, 2003)

Oh damn, get ready for Bob to open mouth and insert at least one foot.

Problems and solutions rest on both commercial fisherman and recreational anglers. So, where to start. 

Commercial guys (which include the floating processing ships, with the search aircraft and high tech crap) have a technological advantage. Planes find the fish, ships get them. Now, around these necks, a commercial fisherman (my term of preference is "watermen") is more the one guy, with a couple of mates, heading out in search of menhaden (and yes, I have seen undersized stripers in flats of bunker, but not many), some even have two or three seasons. Got the netters, then crabbing season, and finally oyster season. Had problems up this way with stripers, oysters and declining crab catches, but the stripers returned, and crabs this year weren't bad. All signs of the bay's improving health.

For a clean bay, we need limits on menhaden catches, and farm and residential and black top run off, both directly into the bay, and indirectly into the bay's feeder streams and rivers. Unfortunately, all of the states involved in the bays health, cannot, or more likely won't get on the same page in restoring this massive resource we have in our back yard.

Get to the recreational guys next post.


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## shaggy (Jun 18, 2003)

Now to the recreational guys, like myself. I know many who follow the laws, and even play safe and add an inch or two or do that and measure straight fork length, even when not needed for certain species, to be safe, but there is that group of rec fishermen, who have no laws, many who don't even worry about a license, and just keep everything they catch (and this should also include rec crabbers who keep those 4" - 4 1/2" crabs).

Me, and I AIn't no saint, believe me, generally (and since my wife and daughters don't eat fish, unless it's out of a can), will keep three maybe four stripers each season, which is enough for me to enjoy until the next season. Pretty much the first fish of each species caught on the surf, regardless of size, was released, from a 22" red drum, 28" blue fish, 29" striper and a small 20" black drum, just because the memory was enough, and to make an attempt to appease the fishing gods.

Now, not getting into the who is blame crap again, enforcement is hard, because even when someone is caught and a citation issued, they have no permanent address, and thus never pay or show up anyhow. So what is the answer, keep a fish under regulations, make is a criminal offense, arrest and detain until such time bail is posted? 

I don't have answers, but all one can ask is that both commercial fishermen, who depend on the bay's health to make a living, and the recreational guy who is more for the fun, play by the rules, adapt to a changing environment, and follow your conscious. After all, there may come a time when the commercial guys will have no viable catch, and thus end up making less than the cost of the catch, and the rec guys will have another, or other moratoriums placed on thier favorite species.

Anyhow, excuse me I think, though maybe said little of sense, have said enough.

Have Jeep will travel


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## Flyersfan (Dec 5, 2003)

Well what made me think this and I don't know how accurate the info is, but I found a slide show on this site and I know it's old...over 30 years now but if it's true and it just might be it's pretty F____IN' DISTURBING.
DRAW YOUR OWN OPINIONS.
oh and yeah don't call me HOMEBOY  
http://www.noreast.com/homepage/index.cfm
slide show in right bottom corner.


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## Digger (Jan 4, 2000)

Jay I feel your pain. the Rec vs Comm thing is amazing many Rec's just don't have a clue as to what the Commercial people go through, with the regulations, they just about tell you when to wipe. They are long and drawn out and many make no sence at first (once you understand the reason's most begin to). 
By the way I break comm's in to general groups. The Watermen and the big bank backed business's. the later being the pruse seining operations (menhaden) and fleets like in the perfect storm. Watermen tend to be individual doing what they love and trying to make a living.

Now Flyersfan the pic's of the haul seining occured back when anybody could sell fish no license was required. So anybody could sell fish. Things have changed alot.

My main agenda is put limits on the Menhaden fishiery with in the Chesapeake Bay and close along the coast. I believe that the other fish will recover nicely.


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## Flyersfan (Dec 5, 2003)

I know there is alot I don't know about the industry. I'm not for bashing a guy trying to make a living in the water he has a right to do so.
I'm just saying we all have to take what will be used on our table and in the market...it's not a bottomless pit.


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## Fishman (Apr 23, 2000)

Without the commercial guys I have no job. Im a seafood wholesaler. With out fish in the bay or ocean I have no fun.


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## rattler (Jul 3, 2004)

i think enforcement of existing laws is a real problem...i know a guy that was cast netting at croatan last fall and said he kept 25 stripers in 2 days...i've called the fish cops 6 times this year and never had anyone show up...i didn't call for one undersized fish...i'm talking a bushel of undersized/spawning crabs, 10+ undersized flounder...i aproached all of these people(except the ones that obvesily new they were in the wrong and looked like new they were in the wrong)...more fish cops=more fines...pays for itself...JMO


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## Dyhard (Oct 24, 2002)

It seems that we have two different groups that are interested in an abundance of sea food. Let's not be like a bar I went to. If things get boring everyone would choose up sides and start fighting. The health of the bay is the real issue! The hole food chain! There used to be big shrimp in my area, no more. Probably the use of 'Weed and Feed' on lawns. They sell this stuff everywhere. Please 'P & Moan' about the things that help everyone.
Personaly, if you want the Menhaden fleet to disappear, I think that some sort of 'buy out agreement' could work. Big money? Solves a big problem.


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## Custer (Jun 14, 2001)

*Time to get deep.*

Take and apple, toss it on the ground...watch the critturs, ants, flys, bacteria etc..eat it up...

Now imagine that apple as the earth...we are the ants, flys, bacteria etc...

WE (mankind) are eating the earth up in daily bites.

So, based on that line of reasoning, the fault for the decline of any resource is....well....us.

For example, take the logging industry. (remember computers were supposed to make a paperless world...yeh. right.) They are exempt from EVERY erosion and sediment enforcement arm. They have convinced (read bought) the politicos into believing that they can self-enforce the industry. Yeh right. Most of the non-point source pollution into the bay is caused by 2 things, development, agriculture (which includes logging). Why does this happen ? Quite simply, they own more politicians than we do.

Same argument for Omega etc...they own more of the legislature than the sierra club. Those two groups are at the total opposite ends of the equation, yet most of us won't support the groups like sierra, because their radical elements (PETA etal) are against our pursuits...

most days, I am just glad that I can see through the smog, can wade through the trash to catch what is left, and aint too afraid to breathe.

Folks, we can spend hours talking, but this is alot like what James said in tha good book:


Faith without works is dead.....as well, as action speaks louder than words...

If we have any hope of seeing things like they can be, we must take action, like OPBA etc did in Hatteras.

I have seen in the 70's the fleet wipe out the croaker and spot fishery in the Rappahannock in one morning, everyone bitched, but no one reminded the politicos that they work for us too.

We can type and talk until we are blue, until us FHB's and recreational fisherman get on the politicos ass, we do not stand a chance.

This is my final soapbox fer '04...

Ya'll have a Happy Holidays...


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## Flyersfan (Dec 5, 2003)

Custer, you're right ! I may have came on a little half-cocked the other day. I agree, Is the EPA looking at what lawn chems are doing to the bay?
We really need to have a voice and instead of meeting for a clean-up maybe we could meet in numbers with a more political overtone for the health of the bay and coast for everyone.


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## GoneFish'n (Dec 5, 2003)

*Posting of the Species and Size Limits*

Maybe what might help is to clearly post the species and size limits, etc., near the access areas where people commonly fish.

I am originally from Minnesota, and at almost every public water access and common shore fishing areas, a large sign has been placed there by the Department of Natural Resources. The sign clearly displays a picture of the major game fish in the minimal legal length, and there is a measuring grid on the bottom of the sign where people can hold their fish to see if it is legal or not. Other regulations are posted on some signs, as well as potential legal consequences if regulations are violated. Also included is the 1-800 hotline to the fishing police.

Maybe doing this here would eliminate the idiots who simply claim ignorance to the regulations.

I think these signs need to be placed at Lynnhaven Inlet, right at the boat ramp and at the end of the parking lot next to the inlet (both shores). Also, signs should clearly be placed at Rudy Inlet, at the Wall under N. Great Neck., and at many of the other common fishing areas. Large billboard sized signs could even be place high up on the bridge pilings in areas clearly visible by the fisherman.

My guess is that people here would simply destroy or deface the signs.

Any thoughts.


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## Flyersfan (Dec 5, 2003)

Gone, I think that's an excellent idea. If they had a hot-line and if we'll saw a violation taken place just pick up your cell or go to the nearest payphone and give them a car tag or something. 
Ya hate to be a rat but it's really the only way to protect our sport. Besides if you're a hunter and you get caught poaching it's game over...it's
pretty strict...I know in alot of states they take your guns, maybe they could take the rod and tackle...I know I wouldn't like to give up my lures and a Penn 6500 OR 5500


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## NTKG (Aug 16, 2003)

custer your a good man buddy

neil


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## rattler (Jul 3, 2004)

flyersfan...theoritaclly they can take your fishing stuff and the vehicale you road in...michigan sure will in a heart beat...


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## Cdog (Mar 18, 2002)

There already is a "Hotline" # 800-541-4646. Call it anytime to report poachers.


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## Digger (Jan 4, 2000)

And the hot line is on the back of the licenses issued by the state, I don't know about the on line licenses.


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## Tom Powers (Aug 2, 2001)

There is a hotline for saltwater violations.

1-800-541-4646

It gets you to the VMRC Marine Police.

Tom


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## jay (Feb 19, 2004)

*hey allright, let me put you in my shoes....*

O.K. home boy, look i'm only 17 yrs. old and i'm very well educated in this subject. firstly let me put you in my shoes.... I first started when I was 8 yrs. old culling crabs and driving the boat, up untill I was 11 I helped my dad every spring and summer. Crabbing was great! Those were some of the most profitable years in a long time. We were raking in the money,.... at the end of that summer someone sabotaged our boat, When we started up that moring we noticed a bit of a knocking form the engine... well when I fianlly left the mouth of the creek BAM!!! A fire started and we put it out quick, then anthor COMMERCAIL fishermen came and towed us in. We found out that some one put a hand full of bolts in the intake of our motor. then we were finished for that year. the next year my dad had a tripple-way-by pass and then a heart attack, and had heart sugury. ever since I was 12 we've been not excatly rich....(you know what I mean, poor...). I've had to make money any way I can, as of right know I work 2 jobs, and go to school. ya know, I know that this is life but life is hard enoughf, with out the help of someelse trying to stop you..... 

So my question to you HOMEBOY, is do you have some one trying to stop you from support your family, trying to make you loose your job and kill your whole lively hood( by the way don't say "yes, the government"), and making it so that if you work on the water you have work two jobs just to make a profit and support your family??????


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## Flyersfan (Dec 5, 2003)

Everybody's got a hard life story...I grew up eating Ronnie's cheese, if you don't know what that is get someone older to explain it to you. I wouldn't dare sabotage someone's work even though that's been done to me. You try being a Yankee in the capital of the ole' south. I've had my share of knives in my back buddy boy. Maybe you should hire Mexicans and give them a row boat, I bet ya they'd be happy work the bay!
HOMESLICE


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## FL FISHERMAN (Sep 30, 2002)

jay said:


> O.K. home boy, look i'm only 17 yrs. old and i'm very well educated in this subject. firstly let me put you in my shoes.... I first started when I was 8 yrs. old culling crabs and driving the boat, up untill I was 11 I helped my dad every spring and summer. Crabbing was great! Those were some of the most profitable years in a long time. We were raking in the money,.... at the end of that summer someone sabotaged our boat, When we started up that moring we noticed a bit of a knocking form the engine... well when I fianlly left the mouth of the creek BAM!!! A fire started and we put it out quick, then anthor COMMERCAIL fishermen came and towed us in. We found out that some one put a hand full of bolts in the intake of our motor. then we were finished for that year. the next year my dad had a tripple-way-by pass and then a heart attack, and had heart sugury. ever since I was 12 we've been not excatly rich....(you know what I mean, poor...). I've had to make money any way I can, as of right know I work 2 jobs, and go to school. ya know, I know that this is life but life is hard enoughf, with out the help of someelse trying to stop you.....
> 
> So my question to you HOMEBOY, is do you have some one trying to stop you from support your family, trying to make you loose your job and kill your whole lively hood( by the way don't say "yes, the government"), and making it so that if you work on the water you have work two jobs just to make a profit and support your family??????


I think not one of us on here want to see the modern man taken away from his living. As said in earlier posts. So the derogatory comments can take a seat. The problem is the bigger commercial investments. I bet if you break the rules you get hammered. Wanna bet when the bigger chains break the rules they get a slap on the wrist? Or money swept under the rug? What is a few thousand dollar fine to a billion dollar industry? That kind of fine will put the working man like yourself Jay on the street. Don't worry I believe your point has been taken.


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