# Bearing question



## Northwoods (Mar 4, 2011)

I am sending an old Abu 7000C in for some work, and the guy wanted to know if I wanted 5 or 7 bearings put in. What is the big difference?


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## Peixaria (Dec 31, 2008)

Think it has to do with the machined tolerances within the case. Get the ABEC 7


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## solid7 (Dec 31, 2010)

It relates to bearing tolerances. In this case, it will deal with the consistency of the balls and races, and subsequently, the amount of clearance between the parts. All things being what they are, this is a "bearing", and the radial play will affect the performance of the bearing. ABEC-7 is the more precision bearing, but not necessarily useful on a fishing reel.

I use ABEC-7 on certain reels, and couldn't care less on others. There is a big price difference on equivalent bearings with different ABEC ratings.


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## Northwoods (Mar 4, 2011)

Thanks for the help.


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## bigjim5589 (Jul 23, 2005)

Northwoods, several years ago, I was upgrading some ABU reels myself & did some research about bearings, then asked questions as you've done. I got a reply from a fellow from England, a tournament caster, ( I looked up his name too at the time, but have since forgotten it.) and he told me unless I planned on casting in tournaments, or did extreme distance casting, the Abec 7 bearings would not be worth the additional cost. That I would not likely see any performance advantage by using the 7 bearings over the Abec 5. He said stick with the Abec 5 bearings for fishing, and so that's what I did. I replaced the factory bearings & stuck with stainless instead of ceramic. He also said ceramic were fine, that they would be a bit noisy, but again not needed, and so far I'm still using the same reels & bearings & no regrets.


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## solid7 (Dec 31, 2010)

Hey, bigjim - you may have spoken to Neil Mackellow. (blackbeard)

I won't say he doesn't know what he's talking about - I just disagree slightly. I'm no tournament caster, but I find ABEC-7 bearings to have a place in non-magged conventional reels. For reels with mags, they can actually be a hindrance, more than help. But for mechanical spool tension, I actually think they serve a purpose. That purpose would be to gain back some small gains from the mechanical inefficiency inherent in the conventional mechanical reel. (magged reels tend to have to be slowed down with fast bearings) Of course, that's just one man's opinion, but I wanted to throw that out there.


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## bigjim5589 (Jul 23, 2005)

solid7, thanks for adding that. Some of the reels I have are MagTrax versions, perhaps that's why he gave me that advise. I really don't recall his name, he replied to a post I made, and frankly, I don't even remember which website I even posted it on.


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## blakdog_tackle (Jan 31, 2010)

It's worth remembering that an ABEC rating is no guarantee of quality .... it doesn't define the quality of the materials used to make the bearing. This counts doubly for ceramic hybrids as the ceramic balls are much more expensive to produce than stainless ones ... therefore a cheap ceramic hybrid will most likely not run anything like as smoothly as a more expensive makes because they are likely to have poorer quality balls in them. 

What you will find with a GOOD QUALITY set of ABEC7 hybrids is that they are much smoother than a lower ABEC of the same quality and, if used with oil, they will last a lot longer than their stainless steel counterparts. When you are buying bearings it generally pays to stick to brands that have a good name for quality, then choose the spec you want from their range. Brands such as Rocket Bearings may seem expensive but they make up for it by lasting a lot longer than other poorer brands .... on the American side of the Atlantic Smooth Drag ABEC5 Ceramic Hybrids are the best I've seen, a little noisier than some bearings but they last well and they are very smooth and free running ... Rocket and Smooth Drag are certainly first choice for my own reels. 

The flip-side of this is a basic chrome steel bearing .... couple of dollars a set and they will take a year of abuse ... when they die, you bin em and buy another cheap set for the next year.


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## solid7 (Dec 31, 2010)

blakdog_tackle said:


> It's worth remembering that an ABEC rating is no guarantee of quality .... it doesn't define the quality of the materials used to make the bearing. This counts doubly for ceramic hybrids as the ceramic balls are much more expensive to produce than stainless ones


That is true. Any good manufacturer will tell you what the material is, and may have several choices available, depending on application, and durability. There isn't a terrible lot of variation between materials, once you know their properties, however.




blakdog_tackle said:


> ... therefore a cheap ceramic hybrid will most likely not run anything like as smoothly as a more expensive makes because they are likely to have poorer quality balls in them.


This is where I disagree, in part, with you.

"Cheap" is a relative term, and also one of economy. The truth is, even within a single bearing manufacturer, costs can vary wildly, depending on how many bearings are produced. Some companies are able to offer better prices on quantity alone. It makes sense then, that the higher quality bearings are more expensive, due to lack of popularity. I would go so far as to postulate that there is no such thing as a "cheap" ceramic hybrid of top quality. However, I can't intelligently make that claim. (and it's a big nerdy discussion as to what that really means, and I'd rather be a fisherman than a nerdy engineering grad today)




blakdog_tackle said:


> What you will find with a GOOD QUALITY set of ABEC7 hybrids is that they are much smoother than a lower ABEC of the same quality and, if used with oil, they will last a lot longer than their stainless steel counterparts.


They will last a lot longer, even without oil. In fact, if anything in that bearing wears out, it's going to be the bearing races, not the balls...




blakdog_tackle said:


> The flip-side of this is a basic chrome steel bearing .... couple of dollars a set and they will take a year of abuse ... when they die, you bin em and buy another cheap set for the next year.


But that isn't exactly an upgrade, and nobody who scrutinizes their setup to the point of asking questions about their bearings is going to be satisfied with standard bearings. (you certainly won't find it on the casting field) And who wants to have their cheap bearings die on the beach? I know I'm not game to carrying around a "spare" set of bearings. I'm a minimalist!


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## blakdog_tackle (Jan 31, 2010)

Bearings rarely die so suddenly and critically that they fail to a point of rendering a reel unusable on the beach ... well not unless you get salt in there, throw them in a bag and then only inspect them in six months time when you hit the sand. Anybody that takes care of their gear will know they need replacing long before they become totally unusable.

On the comment "a GOOD QUALITY set of ABEC7 hybrids is that they are much smoother than a lower ABEC of the same quality and, if used with oil, they will last a lot longer than their stainless steel counterparts" ... I don't really see the point of your comment, sorry, you buy ceramic hybrids because if they are properly made, they last longer. I will add that there are plenty of rubbish hybrid bearings available that I doubt would last me 6 months oiled or dry .... I know that because I get the samples sent to me to try out and without exception, they never run as smoothly as say a Boca, Smooth Drag or a Rocket Bearing. I'm told by Mr Rocket Bearings himself (who I assume has a little knowledge on the subject) that its more often than not due to less precision in the manufacture of the balls, obviously to save costs. 

Actually, I'm generally of the opinion that rather than balls or races, the bit that wears out on a lot of cheap bearings is the cage that separates the balls .... that's because in cheapies they are mostly made of poor grade nylon (rather than metal) and once the cage has gone too far, the rest of the bearing is scrap! If you compare prices from the biggest stockists worldwide you will see that prices for the same spec of bearing are relatively even, so if you find supposedly the same spec of bearing at a significantly cheaper price you'd be sensible to be suspicious. Its also an area that is ripe for ripping people off simply because quite often the only way to tell if bearings are what they claim to be is to rip them apart, and most people aren't prepared to do that - I always order a few extra so I can test across a batch to make sure I've got what I've paid for; I can't afford the bad publicity of finding out those hybrids I have been selling turn out to have steel balls in them!

As for not finding chrome steel bearings on a casting field ... I sell god knows how many sets a year to casters both in the UK and abroad (a good few of them very well known) so I can tell you with complete certainty that you are wrong on the subject of chrome steel bearings not showing their face on the tournament field. Actually I'd go further than that, they are the bearing of choice for some (they seem particularly popular with Original 7HT users), very hard wearing and used for so many applications worldwide that they are produced in scary numbers in the sizes we use in reels which is why they are cheap. Actually they are very good bearings if you buy the right ones and accept that they are not built to last for 20 years .... the main reason they seem to attract so much scorn is the low price and that they aren't as salt resistant as Stainless Steel types .... but then you rarely see a casting tournament where a reel comes anywhere near the sea, well not in the UK at least. A good quality chrome steel bearing is still a good quality bearing ... and its only cheap in comparison to a hybrid. You may not see them at the top competitions but these events represent a very small minority of casters that are closely matched, a fussy bunch about all of their kit, bearings included. 

As for upgrading .... well there seems to be something in human nature that defines an upgrade as "more expensive" and that isn't always the case .... paying more money doesn't always get you something that is better ... it just gets you something that costs more. I offered the "flip side" to illustrate that there is more than one approach to owning a reel with a smooth set of bearings in it. Ultimately there seems to be a strange sort of snobbery over bearings for fishing reels .... to me its very simple, decide on the spec you want (or the one that you think suits your needs best) and then buy from a reputable source regardless of whether you choose "cheap" or "expensive" ... that way you can be pretty sure that you are getting exactly what you think you are and that you will get good customer service if you have a problem. Obviously if an individuals viewpoint is that more expensive is better and they only want the best (in their view) then there is only one choice ... the most expensive - Full Ceramics! Now those REALLY DO need slowing down!

On flip side again .. a couple of years back I magged a brand new reel for an Ex England caster .... when I asked him what bearings he wanted his reply was "Just leave the ones it came with in it" so obviously not all casters are fussy about bearings.


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## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

Really good thread.


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## solid7 (Dec 31, 2010)

blakdog_tackle said:


> Bearings rarely die so suddenly and critically that they fail to a point of rendering a reel unusable on the beach ... well not unless you get salt in there, throw them in a bag and then only inspect them in six months time when you hit the sand. Anybody that takes care of their gear will know they need replacing long before they become totally unusable.


Well, that's true... But rarely isn't never. I'd ask you to ask me why I say that, but I guess that it's pretty self-evident... 



blakdog_tackle said:


> I don't really see the point of your comment, sorry, you buy ceramic hybrids because if they are properly made, they last longer.


I just stated that they last longer period. No oil is required in ceramic hybrids for a fishing application for them to do so. That's all...



blakdog_tackle said:


> I'm told by Mr Rocket Bearings himself (who I assume has a little knowledge on the subject) that its more often than not due to less precision in the manufacture of the balls, obviously to save costs.


Which would call into question whether or not that bearing is actually worthy of its ABEC rating, wouldn't you say?



blakdog_tackle said:


> Actually, I'm generally of the opinion that rather than balls or races, the bit that wears out on a lot of cheap bearings is the cage that separates the balls .... that's because in cheapies they are mostly made of poor grade nylon (rather than metal) and once the cage has gone too far, the rest of the bearing is scrap!


I would agree!




blakdog_tackle said:


> If you compare prices from the biggest stockists worldwide you will see that prices for the same spec of bearing are relatively even, so if you find supposedly the same spec of bearing at a significantly cheaper price you'd be sensible to be suspicious.


Sometimes they source components from the same places. I can't tell you which companies share sources, but I do work with bearings for a living in a mechanical engineering field. I deal with seemingly unexplainable differences in price on a regular basis. For popular sizes, yes, there is usually similar pricing. Add one variable to the mix, however - and you have a different ball game. 

For example - what is your ABEC 7 or hybrid bearing made of?

The bearing and race - may be one of the following:

52100 Chrome Steel
316 Stainless Steel
420C Stainless Steel
440C Stainless Steel
SV30 Stainless Steel

The balls may be:

SI3N4 Ceramic
ZrO2 Ceramic

52100 Chrome Steel
316 Stainless Steel
420C Stainless Steel
440C Stainless Steel
SV30 Stainless Steel

Half 440C/Half SI3N4 (mixed hybrid)

Then you get into serviceable/non-serviceable bearings. In that category, you have snap ring enclosure, or not. Then, you get into one seal/two seal, one shield/two shield, one seal/one shield, or open bearings. Inside of that question, one must ask if you have contact/non-contact seals, and whether they are fixed or removable. Obviously, that raises the spectre of what material the seals and shields are made from. Is it:

Chrome Steel
Green Seal
Plastic Shield
Red Teflon Seal
Rubber Seal
Stainless Steel 
Teflon Seal 
(I'm sure there are others)

I'm not even going to get into listing the retainer material, radial play ratings, and lube options. You get the picture. The point was that many factors affect a bearing purchase, and unless you have all of them, you can't always make a good cost/value analysis. Some manufacturers don't bother to list every specification. (not really a great strategy to cater to an unsuspecting public, even if you make the best stuff in the world)

Some manufacturers actually will also actually tell you what their production volume is for a specific bearing. This also provides insight into pricing and cost.



blakdog_tackle said:


> Its also an area that is ripe for ripping people off simply because quite often the only way to tell if bearings are what they claim to be is to rip them apart, and most people aren't prepared to do that - I always order a few extra so I can test across a batch to make sure I've got what I've paid for; I can't afford the bad publicity of finding out those hybrids I have been selling turn out to have steel balls in them!


Good on you! You are right, and I would rather deal with an individual who had the ethic, pride, and ownership to do just that.



blakdog_tackle said:


> As for not finding chrome steel bearings on a casting field


Actually, the main point I was trying to convey, is that you don't find the "el cheapo" (build quality, not price) in the hands of people who pay enough attention to tweak bearings. Yes, I understand that there is that contingent who will use the OEM equipment. I was referring to the curious and adventurous ones, for whom such a thing will never do...




blakdog_tackle said:


> You may not see them at the top competitions but these events represent a very small minority of casters that are closely matched, a fussy bunch about all of their kit, bearings included.


And those are the ones to whom I was referring, anyway...



blakdog_tackle said:


> As for upgrading .... well there seems to be something in human nature that defines an upgrade as "more expensive" and that isn't always the case .... paying more money doesn't always get you something that is better ... it just gets you something that costs more. I offered the "flip side" to illustrate that there is more than one approach to owning a reel with a smooth set of bearings in it. Ultimately there seems to be a strange sort of snobbery over bearings for fishing reels .... to me its very simple, decide on the spec you want (or the one that you think suits your needs best) and then buy from a reputable source regardless of whether you choose "cheap" or "expensive" ... that way you can be pretty sure that you are getting exactly what you think you are and that you will get good customer service if you have a problem. Obviously if an individuals viewpoint is that more expensive is better and they only want the best (in their view) then there is only one choice ... the most expensive - Full Ceramics! Now those REALLY DO need slowing down!


No disagreement, there. Full circle we come, and we arrive at the same page.

I have always liked to tinker, and I have bought all manner of bearings for my reels. At the end of the day, I don't measure the worth of a bearing by its pricetag, but by how well it performs in a particular application. One size never fits all, and that's as true for bearings as it is for shoes, and everything in-between. For me, I have enjoyed the education received - sometimes through failure - and the satisfaction of knowing that while I possess many sets of ceramic hybrid bearings, I know when and where to use them. For what it's worth, 80% of my reels still use Chrome Steel bearings.


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