# When did Willougby Spit become closed off to the public?



## kaizenakira (Oct 9, 2009)

Just went to willoughby spit planning to fish and there is a no trespassing sign and a no public beach access sign. When did this happen?


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## Advisor (Jan 12, 2003)

What signs are you talking about and where are they located. I ask this because one of the P&S old timers [Rory Goggin.] Has researched this and found that there IS access on the north side of the spit and the sign painted on the HRBT bridge is not a legal sign.


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## kaizenakira (Oct 9, 2009)

Advisor said:


> What signs are you talking about and where are they located. I ask this because one of the P&S old timers [Rory Goggin.] Has researched this and found that there IS access on the north side of the spit and the sign painted on the HRBT bridge is not a legal sign.


Usually I park near the seafood restaurant right off of ocean view and walk up the adjacent road and through a gate to gain access to the beach. This has been legal and accepted for some time now without any problem. But last night when I tried to go through the gate, there was a "posted: no trespassing sign, no public beach access." Does anyone know anything about this?


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## Dr. Bubba (Nov 9, 1999)

the property directly at the end of Chela Avenue is an undeveloped residential property. The property boundary extends to mean low tide. A 10ft city of Norfolk utility easement bisects the property to the mean low tide. Hate to say it, but without permission you are technically trespassing unless your feet are in the water. That being said, I don't believe it is the owners' of the undeveloped property that are posting the signs. It is more likely other residents that live adjacent to the property that are posting signs.


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## kaizenakira (Oct 9, 2009)

Dr. Bubba said:


> the property directly at the end of Chela Avenue is an undeveloped residential property. The property boundary extends to mean low tide. A 10ft city of Norfolk utility easement bisects the property to the mean low tide. Hate to say it, but without permission you are technically trespassing unless your feet are in the water. That being said, I don't believe it is the owners' of the undeveloped property that are posting the signs. It is more likely other residents that live adjacent to the property that are posting signs.


So wait, we've technically been trespassing for years?


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## andrew k (Oct 12, 2007)

*some info for ya....*

heh, your opening a can of worms with this one....i did it a few months ago on another board. got some info from VCAN so ill post it here:

after talking all day with VCAN about this issue, i've learned that this is something they have been fighting for years. below is the lot/zoning map, notice the beach area is not shaded blue like the north beach is, blue means the city considers it OSP (open space preservation). the reason for this, according to VCAN, is that the city states it is private property down to the low water mark. 

*"...The City’s publicly stated position is that it is private property to the mean low water mark.......The City’s position is based off the plot info on record at the City including the fact that the 10’ wide easement at the end of Chela is marked as a utility easement for the City and not a public beach access or public easement."*

Then i got this from VCAN:

I received the OK from VCAN to post the following:

*"That said, there is plenty to discuss here as there is a lot of access history that Doc and I have discussed since being involved in it with VCAN over the last 5+yrs. The how and why the jetty (terminal groin) got built in late `80s etc. Bottom line in our non-profit’s last effort to improve public access at the Spit at a VMRC public hearing on 4/27/10, the City stated that the deeds/survey for the property from the groin to the bridge are private property to the mean low water mark and that the access at the end of Chela is a City utility easement. Hence, our only current legal defense to access that is by ingress from the public beach into the water and then wading in front of the private property as they do not own the water. Technically as soon as you set foot on dry sand your trespassing. The only way that can change is if Norfolk residents (with our non-profit support) request the City (moreover City Council) to recognize this as being a public access location with rationale of historical public use giving rise to prescriptive easement rights and the fact that it adjoins the public beach, fact that their private property has benefitted from public monies (City tax dollars). I doubt this is doable unless there was a large groundswell of support by non-Spit city residents, or if the City were to benefit in some unforeseen way, and/or if key City staff changed their interpretation of the current property designation. Again there’s a lot of history here including a court case in the `80s regarding the private properties located west of the jetty."*


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## andrew k (Oct 12, 2007)

this came about because VMRC was down there chasing us out one evening....


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## RoryGoggin (Jan 6, 2005)

define "MLW"

but other than that, cleaning up the beach BEFORE and AFTER you fish and your behavior while fishing can determine how welcome you are too.


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## striperswiper (Nov 30, 2004)

been fishin there over ten years now and there have always been signs posted. just be respectful and keep it clean the signs are mainly to keep rift raft out not that rift raft listens to them anyway. those people that put the signs up dont mind if fisherman are down there its the people that leave there trash behind that mess it all up for us. iv never been thrown out by any law enforcment and can gaurentee iv spent more time there than anyone.


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## striperswiper (Nov 30, 2004)

aint no feesh in the spit anyway!!!!!!


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## kaizenakira (Oct 9, 2009)

On a similar note, if Willoughby spit is technically illegal and TCC is now closed off, what surf fishing spots are there close to Norfolk now?


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## Smittroc (May 1, 2009)

behind the zoo


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## kaizenakira (Oct 9, 2009)

Smittroc said:


> behind the zoo


Yeah I've been back there before. Are you allowed to fish there at night? And more importantly, how safe is it there at night?


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## kaizenakira (Oct 9, 2009)

Smittroc said:


> behind the zoo


And you mean like at the end of Valette ave right?


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## Smittroc (May 1, 2009)

from which ever way you are coming from, the turn is by the 7-11 on Granby next to the zoo. Basically you will be following the contour of the zoo property until you see the water. I don't know if you can fish there at night but I do believe there is a sign there that says closed at sunset. Not 100% sure tho. Usually the insects will help you decide on when it's time for you to go. I usually go early mornings whenever I do go. I haven't been back there in a while. I have not seen any moster fish get pulled out but I've heard the stories. Typical croaker, spot and sometimes Juvy drum and striper are to be had. It's not the greatest place to fish but options are running low for shore fishing. Oh, it has a small ramp there too. The small pier that was there is torn to shreds so I don't know if the yakers can launch there or not but it's worth a looksy. Let us know how yall do back there..


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## LKSalty (Jun 19, 2007)

*Public beach fishing access in va*

Complaining about the lack of acccess to surf fishing beaches in VA is like P..ing in the Wind. 

Where there is beach access there is no parking allowed and where there is parking ( paid parking ) close to a beach there is no fishing allowed because of bathers or surfers for a good part of the year.

How about opening up the miles of fine beaches from Sandbridge down to the NC border by building dune cuts to the beach and packing spots for 20-30 cars every half mile or so. They even closed Fort Story access in the past year or two unless you were active military.


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## dropinbrix (Jul 10, 2011)

LKSalty said:


> Complaining about the lack of acccess to surf fishing beaches in VA is like P..ing in the Wind.
> 
> Where there is beach access there is no parking allowed and where there is parking ( paid parking ) close to a beach there is no fishing allowed because of bathers or surfers for a good part of the year.
> 
> How about opening up the miles of fine beaches from Sandbridge down to the NC border by building dune cuts to the beach and packing spots for 20-30 cars every half mile or so. They even closed Fort Story access in the past year or two unless you were active military.


Its a wildlife refuge /state park, thats not going to happen.


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## wskitchen (Jun 23, 2011)

We live in a police nation and state. Virginia is far better about this kind of thing than many other states are though. I can understand military bases closing their gates to fishermen but not some other places. This thread reminds me of a few weeks ago when the chief life guard at LIP decided that she didn't like fishermen anymore and made up her own law that fishing was no longer allowed on the surf in that park. Alot of folks raised a fuss and the police got involved. Turns out she couldn't do that so we were saved another blow there. I just hate how there are so many miles of beach and so much of it is basically closed off. I go fishing really early in the morning now and travel light. Since no one is on the beach I usually don't have to deal with tourists so I can go anywhere on the Sandbridge stretch as long as I can walk. When it gets to the point that the only place you can fish from in this area is from the pier, I leave Virginia Beach for good.


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## Smittroc (May 1, 2009)

..and any spot that looks good, just about ANYWHERE in the 7 cities is usually marked no fishing. All this water we have and nowhere to fish. Crazy.


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## Cdog (Mar 18, 2002)

there is a reason that kayak fishing has become so popular.


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## LKSalty (Jun 19, 2007)

TO DROPINBRIX

The NATURE CONSERVANCY purchased the property now called Back Bay Refuge. The plan for the refuge could at least have provided year round public access to the beach besides the one spot by the visitor center. Instead they locked the public out from access to the beach all the way to FALSE CAPE STATE PARK WHICH IS THE ONLY SEA SHORE STATE PARK IN within a 100 miles of Virginia Beach.

Have you ever tried to visit False Cape State Park with a family and have a day on the beach? They do open the park up for WILD PIG HUNTS in the fall !!!!










There are plenty of state parks that have fishing and parking. We have FALSE CAP STATE PARK but you need to hike or bike with all your gear.

I would love to hear more about your views on PUBLIC ACCESS to PUBLIC LAND and WATER.


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## JAM (Jul 22, 2002)

Gee is Public Access becoming a Problem???? 

JAM


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## dropinbrix (Jul 10, 2011)

I didnt write the rules I was stating that they arent going to open up a wildlife refuge for people to park and fish.


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## JAM (Jul 22, 2002)

*You are 100 percent correct, but they will Close A National Seashore Recreation Area*



dropinbrix said:


> I didnt write the rules I was stating that they arent going to open up a wildlife refuge for people to park and fish.



and turn it into a Refuge... Warned all you all years ago about the loss of access, now its happening in your back yard, and it will only get worse.. Enjoy the ride as it will be a painful one...

If we would have fought together we could have done something to stop it, but that was years ago... I promise to put as much effort into your fight as you all did with ours..
Granted some of you fought the good fight, but most sat idle...For those that helped I appericiate ya, for those that didn't, you are now reaping what you sowed..


JAM


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## Dr. Bubba (Nov 9, 1999)

JAM, access has been a problem here for a long while. But it's a different monster here. There are actually numerous access locations throughout Virginia Beach and Norfolk. The problem is the "access to the access" (i.e. parking). Those that live adjacent to access locations either develop creative landscaping techniques to reduce parking or get parking restriction and no parking signs on the streets near access locations. In effect, reducing the access to those that live there or nearby within walking distance. Kind of like some places in the villages on Hatteras. VCAN has been doing something about this for the last 5 years. And a recent pay-off of their efforts was the City of VB creating 170 parking spaces on side roads in Sandbridge by simply painting parking Tees on the pavement. VCAN will likely use this example to get Norfolk to start doing better with parking at its beach access locations. 

VCAN and its individual members have also been doing what it can with CHNSRA too, at least as serious as they'll take us and anyone else.


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## sand flea (Oct 24, 1999)

LKSalty said:


> TO DROPINBRIX
> 
> The NATURE CONSERVANCY purchased the property now called Back Bay Refuge. The plan for the refuge could at least have provided year round public access to the beach besides the one spot by the visitor center. Instead they locked the public out from access to the beach all the way to FALSE CAPE STATE PARK WHICH IS THE ONLY SEA SHORE STATE PARK IN within a 100 miles of Virginia Beach.


Private institutions can't purchase public land. BBNWR is owned by the Federal park system. The only beach the Nature Conservancy owns in Virginia are some of the Eastern Shore barrier islands--which they deliberately left open to fishing and recreation, though you need a boat to get there.

There is year-round public access at Back Bay. Hundreds of reports have been filed on here from the beach south of the parking lot. You can either walk the gravel road or cross over to the beach and walk down.


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## Dr. Bubba (Nov 9, 1999)

sand flea said:


> Private institutions can't purchase public land. BBNWR is owned by the Federal park system. The only beach the Nature Conservancy owns in Virginia are some of the Eastern Shore barrier islands--which they deliberately left open to fishing and recreation, though you need a boat to get there.
> 
> There is year-round public access at Back Bay. Hundreds of reports have been filed on here from the beach south of the parking lot. You can either walk the gravel road or cross over to the beach and walk down.


One minor correction...BBNWR is owned by the Fish and Wildlife Service (USFWS-Dept. of Interior)


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## wannabeangler (Feb 7, 2009)

They closed it because to many in-breds that go out there to fish left the beach looking like crap! If someone came in your backyard and left it looking like crap....you'd stop them from coming too! Disrespect the place you fish and somebody will take that away from you. Go out there and treat the place like it was your Momma's place and clean up after yourself....well.....then maybe....just maybe....they'll let you fish there again! I don't blame the owners one bit to blocking it from the surf fishermen/women. Maybe next time you go somewhere, you'll be more considerate to the area and treat it with respect! HAhahahahahahahahaha!!!!!


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## JAM (Jul 22, 2002)

*You won't be laughing when there is NO PLACE*

for the public to go and Fish....I ain't got no dog in the Hunt, I will never have to worry bout that as long as I work at a Marina.. Little by little, piece by piece, and then there was none left, I can hear the Crying Now... 

I folks got involved, stoped infighting comm vs rec, we would have a chance, but alas we are too STUPID..

JAM


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## Dr. Bubba (Nov 9, 1999)

I hope some of you think long and hard about the weight of JAM's comment above.

If you don't get involved in maintaining and enhancing shoreline water access, you will see it slowly slip away. This goes for beach goers and kayakers.

Small comms are being forced out. Personally, I think folks would rather eat a fresh local crab or specked trout than some fish all the way from Chile. There has always been a rift between comms and recs. There needs to be some common ground or it's divide and conquer some more.

Next, when you'll be required to have a boat/platform/kayak in order to fish at all, there will be only certain places you'll be allowed to go. 

GET INVOLVED!

So back on topic, yeah, the end of Chela Ave is in fact private. Some folks have tacit approval to access the beach there-good for them. But there's a lot more places that are public but they lack parking and have other "restrictions" overlayed. If we could add an average of 5-10 park spaces for every shoreline access point in Hampton Roads, there would be room for everyone.

Ask you local officials what they think of that? Sometimes it pays off to GET INVOLVED!


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