# Stupid IS as Stupid DOES or.. Crime and NON-punishment at Chain Bridge (Potomac)



## DauntlessRV (Aug 15, 2012)

Howdy. So went back to my favorite crime scene - Chain Bridge, DC. This time on the VA side of the Bridge. The nicest and cutest couple, out on a fishing date are fishing very close to the Bridge, underneath. Such a wholesome looking couple, he from Oregon, She from San Antonio, Texas (as I later found out). I fished the River about 50 yards away, downstream. I noticed they were pulling in lots and lots of big fish, or should I say my own girlfriend noticed as I was too busy fishing to look over there very much. After a few hours, as it was getting dark, I asked them what they were fishing with? He said, "Shad". And he further said he was leaving soon and did I want some of their bait. I said, "Sure, Ok." And I walked over to their spot.

The nice Caucasoid lad from Oregon then proceeds to throw a cast net into the Potomac and pulls it out with 3-4 shad, each around 12" long or so, and dumps them on the ground. He tells me how to cut them up, puts them in a plastic bag and hands the bag to me. He tells me he caught a 35 lb catfish with shad like these.

I am horrified! What kind of an idiot would catch shad with a net (all against the rules) and cut them up to catch big catfish? How stupid is that? Near his fishing site, are all kinds of dismembered shad, heads, tail pieces, etc. I go back downriver to my spot with the bag of 3-4 shad in hand and dump the shad into a little puddle in the rocks right near the waters edge. I wash off all the sand from them being dumped on the ground and then I let them go one by one into the River. They seem to have enough life left to swim on in and be off.

I can't get over the stupidity of this - did this young man from Oregon, who came to DC for some job or another, not have enough sense to use... a chicken liver wrapped in pantyhouse? Or anything else but to catch shad in a cast net to cut up and catch catfish? There were also some of our immigrant friends down there with cast nets. But at least they were discrete; when they saw me close by, and my girlfriend taking photos, they went off somewhere else and cast their nets discretely. 

So that is today's report on stupid IS as stupid DOES.. OR..... Crime and non-punishment on the Potomac!


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## MisterBrown (May 22, 2012)

Did you educate the DC "newbie"? Pull him aside, sit him on your lap and gently educate him that shad are a no-no and let him know gently he made an oopsie?

And next time, for goodness sake, take the discarded shad pieces, stitch them up, call 911 and pray they come back to life...Otherwise you aren't doing your part!


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## mepps3 (May 18, 2007)

WHat kind of shad? It is perfectly legal to cast net for gizzard shad and baitfish like that. Gizzard shad is an excellent catfish bait. It is illegal to keep Hickory shad, though. I kinda doubt the hikcory shad are still around in cast-nettable numbers, though, especially after the floods. They go back to the ocean in the summer.


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## DauntlessRV (Aug 15, 2012)

About 12 inches long and very silver colored. American Shad and Hickory Shad are prohibited to take. You think these were Gizzard?


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## markedwards (Jan 29, 2001)

I think they were gizzard shad too. They get up to 16 inches and it's common practice in the Midwest to net shad and use them as for catfish.


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## Garboman (Jul 22, 2010)

mepps3 said:


> WHat kind of shad? It is perfectly legal to cast net for gizzard shad and baitfish like that. Gizzard shad is an excellent catfish bait. It is illegal to keep Hickory shad, though. I kinda doubt the hikcory shad are still around in cast-nettable numbers, though, especially after the floods. They go back to the ocean in the summer.


Chain Bridge is in DC

DC does not allow Cast Nets in their section of the Potomac

All Kinds of folks cast net between Fletchers and Chain Bridge, what they have in common is that they are breaking the law no matter what ends up in their net


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## mungk (Jul 11, 2013)

video made by a friend of a friend. Good for identifying shad. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfZfYvrfvLg


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## DauntlessRV (Aug 15, 2012)

They look good for eating to me (the shad in question)... why would you catch a bunch of 12 inch fish and cut em up to lure an ugly son of a bitch blue catfish that you are going to throw back anyway? You can put chicken livers wrapped in a pair of month old panties and catch catfish in the Potomac all night. Why kill a mess of shad? 




markedwards said:


> I think they were gizzard shad too. They get up to 16 inches and it's common practice in the Midwest to net shad and use them as for catfish.


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## DauntlessRV (Aug 15, 2012)

Thanks for your observation. So if it is flat out illegal, what gives? And the reason I pointed out the ethnicity of the beautiful young couple was to fairly point out that apparently it is not just non-English speaking immigrants for elsewhere who don't respect the rules.


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## bigjim5589 (Jul 23, 2005)

Dauntkless your point is valid about the ethnicity & the law. However, breaking the law is still a crime. I didn't know that cast nets are illegal in DC, but I don't fish there. Those that do certainly should be aware of the laws.

If using cast nets was not illegal, I agree that taking Gizzard shad for catfish bait is not an issue, same as any other bait. No different than dunking nightcrawlers IMO. Some folks simply like catching catfish. A guy I worked with many years ago caught Gizzard Shad with a cast net in the Baltimore area. He gave some of them to me once & they stunk so bad there's was no way I was going to try & eat them. I've since read that they have a nasty scent to them. I've eaten both Hickories & White shad, but don't think I would want to eat the Gizzard Shad. They're better for bait IMO!


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## bluefish1928 (Jun 9, 2007)

I don't see the point of your argument about stupidity.... What he is doing is "typical" in most other places. 
Yes, they were either ignorant of the laws/ refuse to follow.

If I could use a cast net and use shad or herring for bait, I would. Growing up in SC, I have multiple cast nets and I am used to catching my own bait. I really doubt they were either species because they are probably done spawning and spawning shad wouldn't be that small. Gizzard shad is usually great bait.


I read the rules and abide by them eventhough I think this area has some of the dumbest regulations. How you catch your fish should not matter as long as you are not killing for fun and following size/number limits. I have a DC license, despite knowing that the chances of being checked out there is very slim. I do not keep a cast net around.

I fish Fletchers from the rowboats and usually use menhaden and fresh cut catfish. By the way, cut catfish works wonders.... 40 incher from this past Saturday- one of 2 of that size.











I would have stopped by and inform them that what they were doing is illegal.


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## markedwards (Jan 29, 2001)

DauntlessRV said:


> They look good for eating to me (the shad in question)... why would you catch a bunch of 12 inch fish and cut em up to lure an ugly son of a bitch blue catfish that you are going to throw back anyway? You can put chicken livers wrapped in a pair of month old panties and catch catfish in the Potomac all night. Why kill a mess of shad?


I'm guessing you don't chase catfish. Once they get over 5lbs they don't go for junk like chicken livers they become apex predators that things like shad, perch, crabs, and even birds. And as far as throwing them back , stripers and large mouth are catch and release also and lots of striper fishermen get surprised by catfish hitting their livelined baits, so much for the notion they are just bottom feeders.


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## Sandcrab (Mar 20, 2002)

DauntlessRV said:


> ..did this young man from Oregon, who came to DC for some job or another, not have enough sense to use... a chicken liver wrapped in pantyhouse?


Go with what you know! This technique is very close to the way people in Oregon drift salmon egg sacks (roe in netting) for steelhead. 

Sandcrab


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## MSC (May 8, 2010)

Nice report.


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## MSC (May 8, 2010)

DauntlessRV said:


> Howdy. So went back to my favorite crime scene - Chain Bridge, DC. This time on the VA side of the Bridge.


Sorry but you are talking about Virginia waters. DC rules do not apply.


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## Garboman (Jul 22, 2010)

MSC said:


> Sorry but you are talking about Virginia waters. DC rules do not apply.


DC controls the water on the Potomac in the Chain Bridge area up to Little Falls


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## snapperfc (Nov 22, 2013)

Garboman is correct I was stopped by a VA dnr guy on the Virginia side at chain bridge. He asked for my license, so I showed him my VA license. Then he asked for my DC license and told me I needed that too but he didn't care, just warned that if DC people check I may get a ticket.


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## bigjim5589 (Jul 23, 2005)

This is interesting! I was reading the VA fishing regs & apparently cast nets are legal for taking baitfish in VA freshwater. So, this couple was on VA land, fishing in DC waters & using a cast net that is legal in VA, but not in DC. I could see how there could be some confusion given these two are from other states.


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## Garboman (Jul 22, 2010)

bigjim5589 said:


> This is interesting! I was reading the VA fishing regs & apparently cast nets are legal for taking baitfish in VA freshwater. So, this couple was on VA land, fishing in DC waters & using a cast net that is legal in VA, but not in DC. I could see how there could be some confusion given these two are from other states.


It is my understanding that the Chain Bridge Gorge on the Virginia side belongs to the US Government and is Federal Land and this is why the District of Columbia has jurisdiction on the Virginia side of the Potomac, likely originated after the Civil War as an additional means of retribution towards Virginia for going with the Confederacy, old wounds never heal...

Perhaps they will not be so confused when a US Park Police Officer gives them a ticket at Chain Bridge for illegal use of a cast net and confiscates their net, if Chain Bridge was located at Cape Point in Buxton the rules certainly would be enforced

I used to fish for Stripers every spring in the 1970's -1980's on the Potomac in the Fletcher's area, pretty much gave it up when they outlawed snagging herring for bait, my Striper fishing buddy was good friends with the Fletcher Family so we were able to keep a Fletcher boat on the water after dark, long after the rest of the folks at Fletcher's had gone home.

In April or May of the year If the tide was dropping and it was dusk or full dark and you were just off the Virginia side of the Potomac soaking fresh cut herring in six-seven feet of water, you were guaranteed to get bit....

It was something to hear 3-4 Abu 6500 clickers go off at one time, with a buck 7-8 pound Striper on every line trying their best to pull the popping rods over the gunnels of a Fletcher Boat

I never used Gizzard Shad, for bait they sure are the slimy stinky ugly duckling of the family, in the Potomac they are heavy and round bodied and not easily confused with their slender, elongate cousins the Hickory, White Shad or herring


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## DauntlessRV (Aug 15, 2012)

So in big tidal rivers like stretches of the James, Rappahannock, York, etc. cast nets are not permitted in VA waters? Also, if you drop a cast net and bring it back with a 20 inch Striper in it, is that a keeper? Is it impossible to get a big fish within a cast net? Only small bait fish will get trapped? Thanks.




bigjim5589 said:


> This is interesting! I was reading the VA fishing regs & apparently cast nets are legal for taking baitfish in VA freshwater. So, this couple was on VA land, fishing in DC waters & using a cast net that is legal in VA, but not in DC. I could see how there could be some confusion given these two are from other states.


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## MSC (May 8, 2010)

Virginia regs for the Potomac not only allow cast nets for shad... you can also use dip nets and gill nets to catch shad


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## bigjim5589 (Jul 23, 2005)

> It is my understanding that the Chain Bridge Gorge on the Virginia side belongs to the US Government and is Federal Land and this is why the District of Columbia has jurisdiction on the Virginia side of the Potomac.


Wasn't aware of that either. However, from what snapperfc has said, VA DNR also patrols there. 



> Perhaps they will not be so confused when a US Park Police Officer gives them a ticket for illegal use of a cast net and confiscates their net


Perhaps! Ignorance of the laws & in this case, jurisdiction, is still no excuse for breaking the laws, but I could still see how this could be confusing to folks from other states. 

I've never fished that area from shore, and it's been a long time since I have. We launched on the MD side further down river around Ft Washington I think it was. Probably also back in the mid 70's but not sure about the time frame. I was still in high school, so early 70's! Most of the fishing I ever did on the Potomac was above Harper's Ferry. I never tried using gizzard shad either. The big cats were not around back then that I recall, or at least in any numbers & live herring seemed to be a far better bait for Stripers in the spring.


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## bigjim5589 (Jul 23, 2005)

> I was reading the VA fishing regs & apparently* cast nets are legal for taking baitfish *in VA freshwater.


Dauntless, I think you misread what I posted. I would guess that taking Stripers in a cast net would not be legal, as they're certainly not baitfish & are regulated. It's not legal in MD I know. 

MSC, I read that too about the use of gill nets, but that only applies to tidal waters. The area in question is considered freshwater, as the tide line on the Potomac is the RT US 301 bridge. Plus it only applies to Gizzard shad.


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## DauntlessRV (Aug 15, 2012)

*Tide line on the Potomac.*

Hi. Sorry... but is that the Tide line on the Potomac for regulatory purposes? The Route 301 Bridge? The Potomac is tidal all the way up to Chain Bridge and a bit beyond. Thank you. Dauntless.




bigjim5589 said:


> Dauntless, I think you misread what I posted. I would guess that taking Stripers in a cast net would not be legal, as they're certainly not baitfish & are regulated. It's not legal in MD I know.
> 
> MSC, I read that too about the use of gill nets, but that only applies to tidal waters. The area in question is considered freshwater, as the tide line on the Potomac is the RT US 301 bridge. Plus it only applies to Gizzard shad.


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## bigjim5589 (Jul 23, 2005)

Yes, in the reg book it states that the tide line is the 301 bridge, and that is for reg purposes. Generally speaking, all such specified places as tide lines are for reg compliance & enforcement. Doesn't mean the the tide won't influence further up a river. It's for separation of FW & SW or tidalwater regs depending on how it's defined. The regs consider that above the 301 bridge the water is freshwater, even though in may also be tidal. 

Here in MD the Susquehanna used to have a point at the mouth of Deer Creek, with a line drawn across river to another point near Port Deposit as the tide line. Now the regs say it's the Conowingo Dam. The DNR changed it for Striped Bass regs primarily since the regs for Stripers is different in tidalwater than they are in freshwater. The tide still affects the same water, that didn't change.


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## MSC (May 8, 2010)

If you look at the Virginia regs, It is OK to use dipnets, cast nets, and even gill nets for gizzard shad. And this is the inland fisheries rules, which include the Potomac, even in freshwater all the way to the DC line. Once you get above the DC line you might need a PRFC permit to cover all the bases. Even above the DC line like at chain bridge, on the VA side you are still in Virginia, right?


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## Garboman (Jul 22, 2010)

MSC said:


> If you look at the Virginia regs, It is OK to use dipnets, cast nets, and even gill nets for gizzard shad. And this is the inland fisheries rules, which include the Potomac, even in freshwater all the way to the DC line. Once you get above the DC line you might need a PRFC permit to cover all the bases. Even above the DC line like at chain bridge, on the VA side you are still in Virginia, right?


You are in Virginia but once again DC controls the waters of the Potomac in the Chain Bridge area up to Little Falls and DC laws apply


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## bigjim5589 (Jul 23, 2005)

This is what I read in the freshwater regs pertaining to gill nets. However, it does say "fall line" not tidal line. But, it states "tidal rivers of the Chesapeake". This is only for recreational fishing too & taking of Non-game species, of which Gizzard Shad are considered. As Garboman has indicated, this would not apply to the DC jurisdiction of the Potomac. 



> Methods to Capture or Take
> General Methods:
> Except as provided for under "Other Methods" and except in any waters where the use of nets is prohibited, the species listed in the previous section (Native and Naturalized Species� Possession Limits) may only be taken by hand, hook and line, with a seine not exceeding 4 feet in depth by 10 feet in length, an umbrella-type net not exceeding 5 by 5 feet square, small minnow traps with throat openings no larger than 1 inch in diameter, cast nets, and handheld bow nets with diameter not to exceed 20 inches and handle length not to exceed 8 feet.
> 
> Gizzard shad and white perch may also be taken from below the fall line in all tidal rivers of the Chesapeake Bay using a gill net in accordance with Virginia Marine Resources Commission recreational fishing regulations.


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## slogg (Aug 7, 2010)

bigjim5589 said:


> This is what I read in the freshwater regs pertaining to gill nets. However, it does say "fall line" not tidal line. But, it states "tidal rivers of the Chesapeake". This is only for recreational fishing too & taking of Non-game species, of which Gizzard Shad are considered. As Garboman has indicated, this would not apply to the DC jurisdiction of the Potomac.



Brown = gizzard shad
Silver = american, hickory, or even blueback herring ALL OF WHICH ARE ILLEGAL (any tributary, river, or mainstem portion of the bay, in the MD/DC/VA region)

Just did a research paper on this, and submitted it to my employers, the US Fish and Wildlife Service (which partially funds all the States' DNR's). 

If it's silver and 13"+, throw it back..


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## Garboman (Jul 22, 2010)

slogg9 said:


> Brown = gizzard shad
> Silver = american, hickory, or even blueback herring ALL OF WHICH ARE ILLEGAL (any tributary, river, or mainstem portion of the bay, in the MD/DC/VA region)
> 
> Just did a research paper on this, and submitted it to my employers, the US Fish and Wildlife Service (which partially funds all the States' DNR's).
> ...


The Gizzard Shad in the Potomac are silver in color they get up to about perhaps 13"-14" and they smell funny with copious amounts of slime

They have dark backs which may be where your brown color is originating from, but their sides and belly region are silver or whitish is color

I did not do any research paper on them but I have seen and handled them a fair amount


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## Gnatman (Sep 15, 2005)

DauntlessRV said:


> They look good for eating to me (the shad in question)... why would you catch a bunch of 12 inch fish and cut em up to lure an ugly son of a bitch blue catfish that you are going to throw back anyway? You can put chicken livers wrapped in a pair of month old panties and catch catfish in the Potomac all night. Why kill a mess of shad?


Do you think your technique works so well because your "month-old" panty [hose], are "pre-scented"?


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## DauntlessRV (Aug 15, 2012)

*Chicken Livers wrapped in panties - nirvana for catfish!*



Gnatman said:


> Do you think your technique works so well because your "month-old" panty [hose], are "pre-scented"?


That was a little bomb I threw in 10-15 comments back. I can neither confirm nor deny my thinking on that subject. I am already surprised I haven't been thrown off Pier and Surf for the initial comment. I just know it is some GREAT bait!


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