# landing a drum?



## ro-h2o (Feb 21, 2005)

I am heading south soon and wanted to know if I caught this fish in the surf, and had this PIC taken would this fish live how I am holding it, if the Drum was still in tha water before the pic was taken and it swam away? Would that holding posture{sp} help the fish or harm the fish? I know that the fish should not come out of the water until we are ready to snap a shot but { I killed this fish and was not concidering letting it go, so if I wanted to let this fish go do you think holding it in the gills will hurt it?}I was a bass fisherman for the better part of my life and they were strong fish. Any way if I catch a mamoth and hold it like this will she live? How do you hold and release big drum? Scott

I apologise the pic is in my photo album and did not show up


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## chris storrs (Aug 25, 2005)

nevetr hold one up by the gills.this can harm them.try to support as much of the body weight as you can and hold him so hes parallel to the ground.


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## Dixie719 (May 12, 2003)

If she is that tired, make sure you get some water running through her gills. I held mine by the tail last night and slowly moved her back and forth. When she starts coming back to and regains some strength, she will let you know and let her go.


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## sand flea (Oct 24, 1999)

When you get one in the surf, it really helps to have someone wade out to grab ahold of it, rather than trying to drag it up the beach.

Once on the beach, be sure to hold the fish horizontal, rather than vertical. Holding it vertically not only flares out its gillplates, it also can tear tissues in the body. They've spent their entire lives in water and aren't used stretched out vertically. I've seen studies done on striped bass that have actually shown that holding them vertically can cause the spine to separate.

Put one arm around the tail and another around the head. It doesn't hurt if your fingers reach a little inside the gill plates. Just don't cram your whole fist up there or grab ahold of the gills. It'd be like someone reaching down your throat and grabbing a fistful of your lung tissue.

Try to get her back in less than a minute. Once in the water, hold her by the tail and move her back and forth in the water. She'll tell you when she's ready to go when she gives a hard kick and struggles away.

All that said, I'm going to go and piss a bunch of people off here. Heaving your fish over the rail of the pier is not a good release technique. They need to go back in the net and be lowered back down to swim away. Ever bellyflopped off a diving board? Hitting water from 20 or so feet up is like hitting concrete and stuns the fish, sometimes killing it. That's why people commit suicide by jumping off bridges; they don't drown, they are smashed when the hit the water.

Don't believe me? A ranger south of the Sandbridge pier told me dead drum have been washing up in the surf.


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## gordy (Aug 20, 2004)

For sure...you must use the net to release a fish from the pier if it is going to have any chance of surviving....throwing over the rail is just idiotic!!!!


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## Big Worm (Mar 29, 2005)

Impact most assuredly kills jumpers, it will kill the fish as well.


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## Cdog (Mar 18, 2002)

Heres th pic Scott wanted posted.


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## Caught Myself (Sep 14, 2004)

sand flea said:


> I'm going to go and piss a bunch of people off here. Heaving your fish over the rail of the pier is not a good release technique. They need to go back in the net and be lowered back down to swim away. Ever bellyflopped off a diving board? Hitting water from 20 or so feet up is like hitting concrete and stuns the fish, sometimes killing it. That's why people commit suicide by jumping off bridges; they don't drown, they are smashed when the hit the water.
> 
> Don't believe me? A ranger south of the Sandbridge pier told me dead drum have been washing up in the surf.


Thank you for posting that, Flea. I asked a guy at LIP about that last year during the run. Why don't you just put 'em back in the same net you landed them in to get them back in the water? "They're tough. It don't hurt 'em." A real expert. That pier's full of experts.


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## jlentz (Sep 11, 2005)

Be sure to have the camera ready before you catch the fish. Decide who will take the pics according to who has a fish on. A good plan will be smooth and quick. As soon as you get your bait in the water or better yet before have the camera and a tapemeasure out and easy to get to and let everyone there to know there locations. I always like to get a photo of the fisherman fighting with a good bend in their rod to show some of the fight. If the fish is in the sand try to rinse or lightly wipe off the sand on the photo side to make it look bright and larger. Ther are other trickd to make the fish look bigger pictured by holding the fish away from thre body.and towards the cameraman and also having the cameraman, put the camera at the level of the fish not at the eye level of th angler. Have a plan before the fish is hooked as there will be much excitement. also have a tapemeasure ready and in you pocket. I also wil take a photo of the fish being measured. If you measure the lenghth and girth you can go online to calculate the weihght just be sure to measurelenghth and girth at widest point and write down or save in cell phone. use these numbers to go to 
http://fishdreams.com/calculator.all_species.html
I just posted a pic of a red drum I caught holding it horizontally this is a good way to hold them. http://pierandsurf.com/photopost/showphoto.php/photo/1687Check other photos in the gallery show others holding them vertically. Please do not hold them vertically, or put hands in the gill, and try not to remove too much of the protective slime. BE PREPARED, WITH CAMERA AND TAPE MEASURE ,WHERE EVERYBODY KNOWS WHERE IT IS . AND A PLAN OF WHOSE JOB IS WHAT DEPENDING ON WHO HOOKS THE FISH. YOU WILL HAVE TO WADE INTO THE WATER TO AT LEAST KNEE DEEP TO REVIVE( HOPEFULLY VERY LITTLe) AND RELEASE. You will truely treasure your pictures.


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## Shooter (Nov 14, 2004)

Cdog said:


> Heres the pic Scott wanted posted.


Great lookn fish but one fugly beast holding it  what yall dont know is that is one big fish cause I know that beast holding it and he aint called TINY *he knows if he hurts me no more sand spikes*


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## NTKG (Aug 16, 2003)

if done properly, a good drop is better than the net.. why, bc a net wipes ALOT of damn slime off the fish. also, fish sit there in that net and try and get out and do a number to themselves. a good drop is like a good dive, whereas a bad net release can have you have to haul the fish back up only to attempt to have to drop him. yes, belly flops screw fish up, but catching them, and taking forever to land them is just as bad. the surf, walk your fish out a ways, dont let him go in the wash, then he's gotta fight the waves, walk him out as far as ya can, then let him go. the best thing to do, HAUL your fish in, its not a cobia or nothin he aint gonna fight like that, haul him in asap, have a camera READY before hand(excellent advice from someone), have a friend land him, measure, pic and back in the water. on the beach, we wont even pull them out of water, just hold them from the tail in the wash and measure that way, lift him for pic then back in the water.

its good to know people care to release these great fish in good shape. awesome question


neil


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## gus (Jan 24, 2002)

um how bout taking the fish from the pier and going to the water with him. sometimes it takes a few minutes to revive them and u cant work water through their gills in the net. ill get as wet as it takes as long as i get to see that fish swim off. u cant take a majestic fish like that and drop it 20 feet into the water and let it float away belly up - sure itll be ok. cmon now use ur heads people. oh and the longer u take to reel it in - the longer itll take to revive, always keep that in mind.


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## sand flea (Oct 24, 1999)

NTKG said:


> if done properly, a good drop is better than the net.. why, bc a net wipes ALOT of damn slime off the fish. also, fish sit there in that net and try and get out and do a number to themselves. a good drop is like a good dive, whereas a bad net release can have you have to haul the fish back up only to attempt to have to drop him. yes, belly flops screw fish up, but catching them, and taking forever to land them is just as bad. the surf, walk your fish out a ways, dont let him go in the wash, then he's gotta fight the waves, walk him out as far as ya can, then let him go. the best thing to do, HAUL your fish in, its not a cobia or nothin he aint gonna fight like that, haul him in asap, have a camera READY before hand(excellent advice from someone), have a friend land him, measure, pic and back in the water. on the beach, we wont even pull them out of water, just hold them from the tail in the wash and measure that way, lift him for pic then back in the water.
> 
> its good to know people care to release these great fish in good shape. awesome question
> 
> ...


Neil,

You're right about the speed of release. The longer they stay out, the lower their chances are of surviving.

If the net is wet, it doesn't remove nearly as much slime. Try taking a belly flop off a pier--it can stun you so bad you won't be able to swim. Water is *800 times denser than air*. And even if they do go in head first, the shearing forces of the water can tear their gills if their mouths are open. As to hauling them back up in the net *again* after they've hit and are stunned, forget it. Any fish that stressed won't make it through the next few hours.

If it were a good release technique, they wouldn't be washing up dead in the refuge, would they?


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## chuck(skidmark) (Jul 11, 2004)

sand flea said:


> All that said, I'm going to go and piss a bunch of people off here. Heaving your fish over the rail of the pier is not a good release technique. They need to go back in the net and be lowered back down to swim away. Ever bellyflopped off a diving board? Hitting water from 20 or so feet up is like hitting concrete and stuns the fish, sometimes killing it. That's why people commit suicide by jumping off bridges; they don't drown, they are smashed when the hit the water.
> 
> Don't believe me? A ranger south of the Sandbridge pier told me dead drum have been washing up in the surf.


SandFlea...A belly flop does hurt, but a good dive is painless.

It all depends on WHO is doing the dropping.
If you don't know how to do it or don't care how you do it, then don't do it.

If you know how to do it properly, there is nothing wrong with it and the fish will take off like a batouttahell.

Watch the guys that know what they are doing....look how they hold the fish as they are leaning over the rail. Watch the little push as the fishes nose is aimed at the water.

As with anything, the only way to truly learn is to observe the best and try to learn from how they do things.


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## striperswiper (Nov 30, 2004)

Drummin' at Rodanthe Pier 10/8/00
Hatteras Island, NC
Angler: Russel Warren
Photos by Tres Irby
©2001 Hatteras Outfitters. All rights reserved. 



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## striperswiper (Nov 30, 2004)

i tried posting some pics off hatteras outfitters on droping a bull off a pier but i'm not sure how to do it if somebody could help

Andrew


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## gordy (Aug 20, 2004)

Thinking that the mortality rate isn't GREATLY increased by droping the fish off the pier is just retarded. Come on use your head...lower it down in the net and let it live to fight another day. If the impact of the drop doesn't kill em then the nose dive into the sand from that hieght sure will.
It isn't that deep....would any of you dive head first off that pier?


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## Lipyourown (May 11, 2005)

Just one thought on holding them vertically, yes the guts can get pushed together and cause stress/internal tears but doesn't it seem logical that it may be ok to hold them vertically with the head up? They rise in that position to nail baitfish on top you know. Tailing them would be worse right? Just curious as to your thoughts.


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

*I don't think*

suspending them by the lip (letting the body hang down) is anything like when their swimming in the water. In the water their body is surrounded on all sides by water normally, creating relatively equal pressure on all sides. Their internals are not used to the effect of gravity when hung vertically in air.


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## Cdog (Mar 18, 2002)

Surf Cat said:


> suspending them by the lip (letting the body hang down) is anything like when their swimming in the water. In the water their body is surrounded on all sides by water normally, creating relatively equal pressure on all sides. Their internals are not used to the effect of gravity when hung vertically in air.


Yep, yhats why weighing big drum with a handscale is not a good idea.IMO.


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

*put another way*

Your neck muscles are use to supporting the weight of your head, but not your body.

It wouldn't be too good if some large cretin clamped his paws around your melon and proceeded to lift you off your feet, if you know what I mean


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## Clyde (Oct 18, 2003)

If the nose dive from the pier is so bad on them, then how come we get so many tag returns from drum that were tagged on the pier and then immediately took the nose dive? 

IMHO, a correctly done nose dive is better than letting them back in the net. When it hits the water and dives, water is rushed through the gills reviving the fish in much the same fashion as you would do one on the beach. If you loser it down in the net, you can't do this, plus the fish might panic and hurt itself on the net ring. 

A good nose dive is a great way to release these fish.


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## chuck(skidmark) (Jul 11, 2004)

Excellent point Clyde. I've heard that the best way to release Alberts is to torpedo them back into the water so they get that rush of water thru the gills. I also have a video of Norman Miller releasing drum by torpedoing them back into the water.

It's very important when releasing fish from a pier this way to try and time the drop when a wave is beneath the fish so the distance to the water is not so great.

Again, It is important to know how to release them the proper way and not just pitch them over the side.


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## rattler (Jul 3, 2004)

how about if the pier put up a slide during drum season...seems like that would work...jat


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## Newsjeff (Jul 22, 2004)

> how about if the pier put up a slide during drum season...seems like that would work...jat


Because people like me would get drunk and go for a ride.


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## in2win (Dec 18, 2003)

*Chuck?Clyde,*



chuck(skidmark) said:


> Excellent point Clyde. I've heard that the best way to release Alberts is to torpedo them back into the water so they get that rush of water thru the gills. I also have a video of Norman Miller releasing drum by torpedoing them back into the water.
> 
> It's very important when releasing fish from a pier this way to try and time the drop when a wave is beneath the fish so the distance to the water is not so great.
> 
> Again, It is important to know how to release them the proper way and not just pitch them over the side.


I'ts really pretty simple to drop a fish right instead of giving it a " Belly Busting High Dive". Just cradle the critter in one arm and hold the tail with the other hand,aim the head and let the tail go last. Really a no brainer. However some of the folks coming out to LIP don't take the time to watch or ask. Most are in desperate need of an apprenticeship with the Drum Jocky association of learning.

CATCHEMUP,

Mike


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## gus (Jan 24, 2002)

CLYDE - so u r telling me u note on each tagged fish how it was realeased (dropped or not) - id have to say very doubtful. or of course u just retain that information - the 5,6, or 7 digit tag number and type of release in the old grey matter - also doubtful. this also begs the question how many are not returned (which is impossible to answer). id have to say thats a pretty flimsy arguement at best. it comes down to basic common sense - which would be better for the fish. a- u drop it 20 feet to the water and maybe it lands face first (did i mention these fish have no eyelids), or b - u take the time and effort to revive them in the surf (oh and u may get a little wet). the answer seems obvious to me.


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## Clyde (Oct 18, 2003)

The anglers that I'm talking about landing and tagging the drum from the OBX piers give them the ole' nose dive. They have had numerous tag returns over the years. Just stating the facts, but you've already got your mind made up so I shouldn't even be wasting my time.


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## sand flea (Oct 24, 1999)

Those old timers used to stack bluefish up on the beach like cordwood, so I don't know that we should necessarily be following their example.

Look, I'm not trying to start a fight here. But I've seen too many of these fish float away on their side afterwards and I've seen too many wash up on the beach. How many of you who fish the piers have seen fish float away on their sides?

We all want these fish to live to fight another day, right? There are no PETA idiots on here, so it makes sense to figure out to how keep them alive after we're done with them.

Every year we have debates about releasing stripers up here in Maryland during the spring spawn. So I decided to settle the debate by writing a fisheries biologist. This year I did the same by asking a VMRC fisheries biologist. Here's the response I received on the issue:

_I believe it would be similar to a human diver. If hit right (i.e.
head first) it would propel into the water column without much shock,
unless the water is shallow enough to make hard contact with the bottom.
If fact, a head first, coupled with a shove release, is often a
recommended style from boatside, as it aids a fish to start swimming and
forces water (and oxygen) through its gills. Back to our human diver,
if landed on the side, it can be painful, and from a pier,
damaging. I believe the same would be true for a fish. Lowering a
fish back into the water, using the net it was hauled up in, would
eliminate the potential "re-entry" shock. But, another factor to
consider with a net released fish, how much longer is the fish out of
water? With one net on the pier and several fish waiting to be landed,
keeping the fish an extra 5 minutes out of water may be more damaging
(plus it is flopping with its full weight on the pier, possibly damaging
internal organs and certainly losing its exterior, protective slime). 
Ideal situation, fish comes to the top of the pier in the net, is
unhooked, and the net is dropped right back down (i.e. fish never hits
the pier). This will rarely happen because even though the angler knows
the fish is to be released, the fish will be dumped on the pier,
admired, and maybe a snapshot will be taken._

And as to Clyde's question about returns on tagged fish that were dropped--you only got returned tags on fish that survived. I'm not saying it kills them all. But getting a few tags back is like saying that car crashes are a good idea because most people inevitably survive.

I'm not trying to discourage people from arguing against me. By all means, tell me I'm full of crap. But this has been bothering me for a long time. I've seen too many dead fish and it's really starting to bug me. A good release is fine, but there are too many bad ones. Why don't we try and get them all back safely, instead of slopping over the side and yelling, "Oops! My bad!" when they smack sideways?


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## NTKG (Aug 16, 2003)

sand flea said:


> . Why don't we try and get them all back safely, instead of slopping over the side and yelling, "Oops! My bad!" when they smack sideways?



flea

i dont think anyone intentionally tries to kill a drumfish. all im sayin, is that i've seen alot of fish sit in a net and try and swim down, and basically, they wont get out of the damn net, you can drop some slack, but the fish will just swim down with it. the slime factor, wet or not, nets remove ALOT of slime, and that is the big factor in survival. even when people take pics, the fish flops along the pier and gets rid of slime, then a guy with a hoodie holds a fish against his chest, even more slime. or how about on the beach when i watch guys with fish with sand all over them, i mean thats all removing slime too you know? i mean sure guys will mess up throwin a fish back, is a net a better option, i dont really know so i cant say. but i'd rather do a drop or even a net than walk a fish all the way down a pier and release him in the surf, i think that time and air on his slime would be more detrimental. like i said, this thread started as an excellent question, this is not one of those posts we all have fun arguing over, lets keep that one in mind, we all love us some drumfish and lets take care to be as quick to release as possible.


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## sand flea (Oct 24, 1999)

You're dead on about the difficulty of releasing a fish from a net. Their natural tendency is to swim down, so if you just put the net in the water, they will never get out.

Put it near the surface, then drop it straight down 5 or 6 feet. Give several feet of line out and they will swim away immediately. If the fish is still inside, drop the net to the bottom. Give this technique a shot next time you're on a pier. Works every time and doesn't stun them by throwing them off.

I've just seen too many fish die and float away by being heaved off. Let's try something else.


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## in2win (Dec 18, 2003)

*One was caught the other day on LIP*



Clyde said:


> The anglers that I'm talking about landing and tagging the drum from the OBX piers give them the ole' nose dive. They have had numerous tag returns over the years. Just stating the facts, but you've already got your mind made up so I shouldn't even be wasting my time.


that was taged by Capt. Pat on Avon Pier 10/23/03 @ 46" ... It's safe to say that it was a droped fish.

CATCHEMUP,

Mike


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## Freddrum (May 19, 2000)

*Hmmmmm*

I'm surprised Kenny hasn't posted on this topic


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## flathead (Dec 18, 2003)

Well,I'll jump on in with a question concerning possible injury by holding one vertically.Just out of curiosity,I went to the HO website and scanned the photos of the pics of the Red Day at the Point.There are no less than 43 pics of anglers holding the drum vertically by the gill plates,some obviously dragging them across the sand,probably to be photographed and/or measured.And some of those anglers are well known and pretty darn good too.So,were those 43 or so drum hurt or killed ? And,if holding one vertically is injurious to the fish and if knowledgeable anglers know this,why were 43 +/- held this way instead of being cradled and carried to the sand ?

Bellyflopping seems to be common sense.Seems the rest of it is nit picking and hair splitting,especially if the fish is returned safely and properly to the water in a minute or two,tops.


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## gus (Jan 24, 2002)

hurt maybe, killed - who knows. the most likely answer answer id have to say would be ignorance of the fact that this may hurt the fish. hopefully the fish made out ok. this is a good thread. even if we all dont agree on the release techniques, i think it is safe to say some people may learn something here. i think we can all agree it is best to have everything ready for access - wet towel, tape measure, camera, tags, etc. this minimizes the time the fish is out of the water and gives it the best opportunity to swim away to see another day.


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## Drumdum (Jan 6, 2003)

> CLYDE - so u r telling me u note on each tagged fish how it was realeased (dropped or not) - id have to say very doubtful. or of course u just retain that information - the 5,6, or 7 digit tag number and type of release in the old grey matter - also doubtful. this also begs the question how many are not returned (which is impossible to answer). id have to say thats a pretty flimsy arguement at best.


 I'll put it like this.. Write Carol Ethridge from NCDMF.. I think she will inform you that,other than Norman Miller who fishes a boat and bails bigguns  ,plankers give more tagging data than any other source of drum anglers on big drum.. As far as know which ones are dropped,well most of the anglers that tag fish on the planks drop them.. Take note: One example of a tagged fish would be to have tagged the fish,dropped the fish,and the *same fish* is caught and redropped *30min later!!* Yes,I'd say that kinda reenforces Clyde's statement.. 
If that isn't enough,I'll throw in another example.. Avon Pier was condemed back in 1979 due to the shape she was in due to damage done from storms.. One angler,Larry Hack got in touch with NCDMF and the tagging program in which he was involved.. He got them to allow several plankers to fish and allow Jeff Ross to inject tetrocyclin (probably misspelled like all that I write   )into the fish to determine ages for research.. They tagged and released numbers of fish. *They were ALL DROPPED!!* Hmmm,Jeff Ross is one of the formost authoritys on the growth and for that mater the species of red drum period.. That would be *strange but true* if he didn't think it was in the best intrest of the fish.. 

As far as handling a fish,these are some pics from the planks and the way they are handled there..





































These are all anglers that have my respect,and I've fished many yrs with all of them. All of us respect the red drum and it's survival.. Many of us are in the tagging program here in NC,and fight for the release and *survival of the species..* All of us handle and release these fish with much care,to say we don't is just not knowing the facts,IMHO.. 
This is what I have seen and witnessed in 30yr of plankin:
I've only had one fish that I really had a problem getting to revive and not float belly up. *Guess how I released her??* Yeap,you got it,*in a net!!* I'm not implying that a net doesn't work for the releasing of a drum,just stating a fact.. Flea,I have released many drum in the net,and have tried the tactics you suggested,such as lowing to the bottom. Everytime I have tried it the fish becomes intangled in the net and then him and the net are on the bottom together.. I have had some success with lowering in the net,but the proceedure puts more stress on the fish,than if it were dropped properly,IMHO..

Another example would be the fact that I have only seen two fish in 30yr of planking that actually washed up on the beach,at least in NC  .. They happened during the last big blitz on Kitty Hawk when there were more than 80fish caught that day.. 

Actually I have seen more fish floating from the point after a blitz than from anywhere else.. 

The only way that I can think of to make a safer release would be to educate these folks on how to drop a fish properly,or to get a sliding board for the rascals as was suggested earlier..


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## sand flea (Oct 24, 1999)

I've chucked drum and big stripers over the side myself for years, and I don't doubt that most of them live. But last year, for instance, probably one-third of the black drum I saw tossed off the Seagull Pier floated away on their sides (admittedly much higher off the water than other piers, so the drop stunned them a lot worse).

Last week at Sandbridge I saw two reds float past, and a ranger told me there was a third washed up a mile or so down the beach. Of course another problem at Sandbridge may be how shallow that water is at low tide. Don't know if it's shifted, but I jumped feet-first off of it a couple of times as a kid and actually hit the bottom at low tide. The water was only about 7 feet deep on top of the bar, so if that's still the case some of these things could be dinging the bottom.

Most of these fished chucked off do live. I'm not disputing that. But if a fisheries biologist saying, "_Back to our human diver, if landed on the side, it can be painful, and from a pier, damaging. I believe the same would be true for a fish. _" doesn't give some pause, then I don't know what to say.

Most of the die-hard plankers like Kenny are better fishermen than I'll ever be, but I know what I've seen and figure there has got to be a better way.


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## gus (Jan 24, 2002)

drumdum u may have some actual data. clydes arguement was nothing but heresay. i dont support arguements from heresay. i also dont support dropping fish 20 feet from a bridge. dropping them from a boat is totally different.


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## JAM (Jul 22, 2002)

Its strange they are hardy fish can't speak any knowledege bout dem planks but in the past 3 years I have only seen 2 wash up dead @ the Point. Its mainly the picture takers most of the guys get em back fast to catch the next one.. Been known to do quick releases in knee/waist deep water boom boom done, I do use the lipper on them and grab them under the gills too, but when ya got rod/reel in one hand that gives ya one hand to deal with the fish.. One of the ones that washed up was around 52 and I called NCDMF to get a special permit to remove the carcus from the beach. Contacted the Drum Biologist in Manteo to come and retrieve the dead fish for research and or museum piece. Gave me a number and all the go aheads to do it but I still felt strange doing it. Brought her up to the shop and put her in the freezer guy from Manteo came and got her that afternoon so @ least some good came from the bad.. As many that are caught most are released to be caught again another day other wise the beach's here would be covered with them in the fall and spring just get bring them in fast and get them back fast take a mental picture. Remember some of these fish are 40 + years old and it ain't their first Rodeo....Their very strong fish... JMHO IMHO, and all other dis-claimers apply... JAM


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## Drumdum (Jan 6, 2003)

> Most of the die-hard plankers like Kenny are better fishermen than I'll ever be, but I know what I've seen and figure there has got to be a better way.


 If you saw fish landing on their sides,then the folks that dropped the fish had no clue,and should have asked someone out there for help.. I know of at least 3 anglers (two are in photos above) that have been out there regular in this run of fish, that would have gladly helped and DO HAVE A CLUE..

As far as being better fishermen,that's not true,we may have thirty yrs in the water,but that doesn't make us better,just older..   





> in the past 3 years I have only seen 2 wash up dead @ the Point.


 Jam,this was at least 5yr ago.. I was sightcasting and saw 3 floaters on n side in the ocean coming from the beach.. And yes there are many more caught off the point in a day than off the planks.. Also the "photo opps" go overboard,as you said,and that could have been the problem..


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## in2win (Dec 18, 2003)

*Clydes data*



gus said:


> drumdum u may have some actual data. clydes arguement was nothing but heresay. i dont support arguements from heresay. i also dont support dropping fish 20 feet from a bridge. dropping them from a boat is totally different.


Comes from the likes of:
NCDMF
Capt. PAt Bracher
Capt. Kenny (DD) Wilson
Capt. Norman Miller

A wee bit better than mere hearsay.

Clyde I agree, these guys don't have a clue,don't want to learn and we are wasteing our time..

CATCHEMUP,

Mike


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## sand flea (Oct 24, 1999)

Now hang on just a minute. Dismissing the issue as rambling from people who "don't have a clue" is a load of crap.

You've listed some good folks above who have good points that are much more than hearsay. Clyde, Jam, and Drumdum all know their stuff. But the e-mail I posted on the first page saying that drops can injure the fish was none other than Lewis Gillingham of the VMRC. And today I received the following from a fisheries biologist with Maryland's DNR:

_I think there is a good chance that the long drop down to the water will injure or kill the fish. I suggest that if the fisherman has a drop net, he or she should use it to lower the fish back to the water._ 

The mortality of these fish is worth talking about. Sharp people with good evidence for their case can make arguments on both sides. I thought it was worth discussing and that's why I brought it up.

But back to ro-h2o's original question (before I derailed the whole dang thread  ). * If there's one thing that impacts fish mortality on release, it's time out of the water.* Forget all this arguing and stick to one fact: no matter what release method you choose, that fish needs to be unhooked, photographed, and back in the water as quickly as possible, preferably under 60 seconds.


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## in2win (Dec 18, 2003)

*Sandflea*



sand flea said:


> Now hang on just a minute. Dismissing the issue as rambling from people who "don't have a clue" is a load of crap.
> 
> You've listed some good folks above who have good points that are much more than hearsay. Clyde, Jam, and Drumdum all know their stuff. But the e-mail I posted on the first page saying that drops can injure the fish was none other than Lewis Gillingham of the VMRC. And today I received the following from a fisheries biologist with Maryland's DNR:
> 
> ...


My comment was based on Clyde’s data being referred to as hearsay.

I agree that time out of the water/hands in the gills are about the worst things going and a belly flop can't be a good thing. If a fish is dropped as I instructed there is no reason for that to happen.

CATCHEMUP,

Mike


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## Drumdum (Jan 6, 2003)

*Flea..*

This is hearsay on what I have witnessed.. I have seen fish hit the planks,get stuck with a tag and back in the water in less than 60sec,and swim off like a bolt of lightning,when dropped properly.. I have also caught fish on the beach and had a tough time reviveing by just moving them back and forth. In recent yrs I have craddled the fish,after catching him on the beach,wading him out to deeper water and "launching" him forward,this seems to work better,at least for me.. Kind of tough with rod under the arm,and better done if you can hand rod off. For some reason,a fish brought up in the net seems less stressed than one on the beach? Don't make sense,but it is true,IMO.. I don't tag as many on the beach for that very reason.. I know of a few taggers that will tell you the same.. 

I'm not dismissing the issue as "folks that have no clue",although,that is the main reason you are getting floaters,IMHO. 

Not familiar with Lewis Gillingham,but I am with Jeff Ross,and I'm sure you have read his work. He is also a highly regaurded marine biologist,and would not condone the "haphazard release" of a drum,while doing research and tagging on them,IMHO..

Flea,I have heard of a plan that may suit all.. They make canvass tubes used for dumping construction waste. Attach one to the pier railing,away from the wind,dump 5 gal bucket of water down to help prevent slime removal,slide fish into the chute,this would at least insure a head first release on the drop.. Sounds like a crazy idea,but it could work and make all concerned fishermen happy,just a thought??

Kind of hard to make an argument here,as most folks already have their mindset..


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## Digger (Jan 4, 2000)

I like the chute Idea. I wonder what the cost is? If it is affordable I may buy one for SB next season.


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## Tuck (Oct 29, 2003)

How about the idea of a breakaway bottom on the net? Could be held tight when haulin' in the fish, via a draw cord, then when being released, with net just above the water, give slack on the draw cord and pull net up. Seems that the weight of the fish will cause the bottom to open. Fish is left in the water and net is brought back to the planks.


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## gordy (Aug 20, 2004)

*new release techniques*

Now we've got some good ideas guys, keep em commin. This thread has suddenly taken a turn for the better when I was just about ready to give up on it.


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## Fishing_Feud (Nov 16, 2004)

*Bbq*

Those pics look like thay would make some dam good BBQ


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## Shooter (Nov 14, 2004)

Yes I know this is a meaningfull topic but just sitting here got me thinking and had to snicker. First it's a slip and slide for the fish and next it's a trap door basket  if we really work on this and make it fun for the fish they would gladly be caught just to get released  Waitten for someone to come up with the idea of a kiddie pool for the puppy drum  
Now back to maken sure the Red ones get put back in good shape if someone could get thier hands on some long hard plastic it could be made into a slip-n-slide thus as Kenny as others have said making sure they go head first quickly seems to be the best method of bring them back around the quickly.


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## gus (Jan 24, 2002)

in2win - if u read his original post and i quote

"If the nose dive from the pier is so bad on them, then how come we get so many tag returns from drum that were tagged on the pier and then immediately took the nose dive? "

theres no names there and no explanation, no data, just heresay. i tag for va and on the tagging sheet theres a little column called comments - this is the only place u would see anything like dropped 20 feet off a pier and a good nosedive or bellyflopped and floated. whether or not this actually gets transferred to the state data sheets i do not know. the likelyhood that this phenomena has been studied i would say would be slim. at any rate the data would be hard to prove reliable given all the other factors and return rates. saying that so and so said this or saw this doesnt hold anything in my book. fighting and landing a fish from a pier takes substantially more time than from a boat. this is the main reason i dont support just dropping a fish overboard - i think that a revival by holding the fish is the best option, but thats just me. and as far as black drum go, u can almost guarantee that it will die using the drop method. those fish dont have nearly the stamina reds do.


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## Drumdum (Jan 6, 2003)

gus said:


> in2win - if u read his original post and i quote
> 
> "If the nose dive from the pier is so bad on them, then how come we get so many tag returns from drum that were tagged on the pier and then immediately took the nose dive? "
> 
> theres no names there and no explanation, no data, just heresay. i tag for va and on the tagging sheet theres a little column called comments - this is the only place u would see anything like dropped 20 feet off a pier and a good nosedive or bellyflopped and floated. whether or not this actually gets transferred to the state data sheets i do not know. the likelyhood that this phenomena has been studied i would say would be slim. at any rate the data would be hard to prove reliable given all the other factors and return rates. saying that so and so said this or saw this doesnt hold anything in my book. fighting and landing a fish from a pier takes substantially more time than from a boat. this is the main reason i dont support just dropping a fish overboard - i think that a revival by holding the fish is the best option, but thats just me. and as far as black drum go, u can almost guarantee that it will die using the drop method. those fish dont have nearly the stamina reds do.


 Well,this I do know.. Pat Bracher is the most meticulous data person I know.. I CAN gaurantee all the # and facts are straight in his book. He has been tagging since the 70's and still has the info. He can tell you the name of the person and the date he tagged it,whether it was dropped or not and time of recovery,probably the tide and exact time as well.. I don't have his log book with me or I'd post some of his returns. If you don't believe that plankers do most of the tagging,exception of boats,call NCDMF.. His tags bare out much of what we are saying,but as was said before,your mind is made up..  As far as pier vs boat,it depends. I've caught fish in the sound that were by far harder to get to swim off than fish I have caught off the pier. In general,I would agree that fish caught from a boat has the best chance of survival..


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## gus (Jan 24, 2002)

dd what u r saying may by all means be true, however my original post was in reply to a statement that simply said "then how come we get so many tag returns from drum that were tagged on the pier and then immediately took the nose dive? "
theres zero data in that statement, its just a statement with no factual basis to back it. a statement with no factual basis to back it holds no sand in my book, and id imagine itd be the same with u. 
in2win - we do have a clue, and if anyone here is being narrowminded id say it would have to be yourself. theres no reason to make personal attacks.


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## in2win (Dec 18, 2003)

*Gus,*



gus said:


> dd what u r saying may by all means be true, however my original post was in reply to a statement that simply said "then how come we get so many tag returns from drum that were tagged on the pier and then immediately took the nose dive? "
> theres zero data in that statement, its just a statement with no factual basis to back it. a statement with no factual basis to back it holds no sand in my book, and id imagine itd be the same with u.
> in2win - we do have a clue, and if anyone here is being narrowminded id say it would have to be yourself. theres no reason to make personal attacks.


It apears to me that you slamed Clyde pretty hard because you don't know the man and didn't have a clue that he knows what he is talking about. 

I have to tell you that old time OBX Plankers are a tight knit group, a number of us have fished togather since the "60s and 70"s. We all catch our fish and have no reason to B.S. anyone. 

I will continue to direct folks to drop fish per my posted instructions until a better way comes along.

Now I have to admit you got me on one thing... I don't have a clue about Black Drum  

CATCHEMUP,

Mike


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## sand flea (Oct 24, 1999)

I have a perfect solution to get them back.  

<img src="http://www.pierandsurf.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=432">

Kidding aside, I think I may use a simple sling constructed out of a tarp and a couple of dowels next time I'm planking it and there's a good run of bigger fish (I'm still tossing the little stuff). They should have no problem swimming out of it and it'll stop them from possibly being stunned or injured on the drop.

But if you are dropping, I really like the idea of the tube mounted on the pier. It'd guarantee a straight release every time, even by the newbies.


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## Advisor (Jan 12, 2003)

FLEA!!!!  

You dared to castigate me for asking about "Flying Cobia". [yes even old cops know some englshih ...  ] Now you show a wonderful pic of a flying ... what is it!! I'll bet they could catch a flying cobia!!  Whad'dya think?


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## gus (Jan 24, 2002)

i slammed him because i dont know him - good arguement.


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## fishloser (Jul 18, 2002)

dayum, I thought I wanted to catch a drum, after reading all this I think I may stick to King and cobia fishing. If I do hang a drum think I'll just cut the line when I get it to pier, hook will rust out quickly in the salt.


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## hsstie (Sep 8, 2005)

sand flea said:


> But if you are dropping, I really like the idea of the tube mounted on the pier. It'd guarantee a straight release every time, even by the newbies.


I saw one of these construction tubes on the new monster condo they were building right near the sandbridge pier when we were there the other day, it was for debris to be thrown in from the upper floors and it went down to a rolloff container. Had sections for the downfall so it could be adjusted according to height. I would assume somone in the construction / carpentry area might be able to find one for the pier secondhand.


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## sand flea (Oct 24, 1999)

Since everyone has pretty much had their say, I think it's time for this thread to go to bed.

Good thoughts all around--let's get those fish back alive.


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