# double section leader



## skunk king (Mar 25, 2008)

All this talk of braid leaders has got me a thinking...so look out!


Here's my question, has anyone tested if you get a better cast with braid vs. mono? If there is an improvement in casting distance, there are still reasons to avoid braid, like abrasion and hand cuts. But what if you used two leaders? The first would be braid and it would go from the main line, 3-8 wraps around the reel, and then just to the end of the rod. Then tie another mono leader on the braid to the terminal tackle. That way, just the braid portion of the leader is used on the rod during the cast, giving you the distance gain. And you'll still have 6-8 feet of mono leader on the end to land fish. Sounds crazy eh? I think I'm going to play around with braid leaders this week and see if I can get any more distance out of them vs. mono and try the double leader if their is a difference. 

I'm still too afraid of cutting my thumb off with a braided main line to try that with 8-n-bait.


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## rattler (Jul 3, 2004)

Knots. We all want the smallest/best knot. I don't think adding knots would help.


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## Cdog (Mar 18, 2002)

Braid has no stretch which in theory defeats the purpose of a "shock" leader. Yes you do get more distance with braid but that is with the spool being filled and because of the line diameter. Maybe I am missing something, but I see no way that using a braid "shock" leader could possibly increase your distance. Like I said, maybe I am misreading something...


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## skunk king (Mar 25, 2008)

rattler said:


> Knots. We all want the smallest/best knot. I don't think adding knots would help.


There would still just be one knot going through the guides as the other is on the other side of the tip. The last piece of mono is just on the drop. 



Cdog said:


> Braid has no stretch which in theory defeats the purpose of a "shock" leader. Yes you do get more distance with braid but that is with the spool being filled and because of the line diameter. Maybe I am missing something, but I see no way that using a braid "shock" leader could possibly increase your distance. Like I said, maybe I am misreading something...


Shock leaders are about including a line strong enough to withstand the force of the cast, not adding elasticity. Otherwise we would use 17lb or so line because that is more elastic than heavier shock line material right? 

So why would a braid cast better? By putting a better load on the blank. Elasticity is crucial in blank performance. That action of the rod deforming and snapping back into shape is what gives us distance. So if I use a leader with 0 elasticity, then 100% of the force in my cast is transferred to the blank, further deforming the blank and storing more energy in it to be released at the cast. If I use mono with some elasticity, then some of my energy is wasted in deforming the line which won't improve my distance. 


In summary, 0 elasticity in the line would put more energy into the blank. So that's the theory, time to test it out.


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## rattler (Jul 3, 2004)

Cdog said:


> Braid has no stretch which in theory defeats the purpose of a "shock" leader. Yes you do get more distance with braid but that is with the spool being filled and because of the line diameter. Maybe I am missing something, but I see no way that using a braid "shock" leader could possibly increase your distance. Like I said, maybe I am misreading something...





skunk king said:


> There would still just be one knot going through the guides as the other is on the other side of the tip. The last piece of mono is just on the drop.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


SHOCK LEADER!!! Braid has NO stretch. The "shock on the cast" lets you throw 8&bait( 10-12+) when you have 15-17 or so main line. I hate braid on a heaver or anything other than spot/specks/lure rod. I have seen "fishermen" snap their rod trying to pull up the snag monster because they had #80 Braid.


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## skunk king (Mar 25, 2008)

what do you thick shock means?


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## Bocajettyrat (Dec 8, 2010)

From experience braid will pop if fighting a large fish and it touches anything, like rocks, coral, sand. Stick with mono and keep your knots to a minimum.


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## Cdog (Mar 18, 2002)

skunk king said:


> There would still just be one knot going through the guides as the other is on the other side of the tip. The last piece of mono is just on the drop.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok, not to go into elasticity and all that stuff, the reason braid cast further is it is a smaller diameter line. Again to go back, if I am casting 20# test line but it is 6# diameter of course it is going to go farther because it is smaller line and going to come off the reel quicker. Using a shock leader of braid will not cast further because it has no chance to because it is only the shock.Try it and let us know the results. :fishing:


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## notso (Jul 18, 2005)

skunk king said:


> If I use mono with some elasticity, then some of my energy is wasted in deforming the line which won't improve my distance.


why do you think that the energy imparted into the line is "wasted"? It seems to me that while the biggest contributor to initial velocity to the sinker is the energy loaded to the rod, energy stored in the line is bound to also "unload" and help accelerate the sinker. Think slingshot....

My biggest concern about the dual leader is exposing the braid to mono knot being exposed to the full load of casting. On a normal shock leader, the joining knot doesn't see any load because of the wraps on the spool.


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## skunk king (Mar 25, 2008)

Cdog said:


> Ok, not to go into elasticity and all that stuff, the reason braid cast further is it is a smaller diameter line. Again to go back, if I am casting 20# test line but it is 6# diameter of course it is going to go farther because it is smaller line and going to come off the reel quicker. Using a shock leader of braid will not cast further because it has no chance to because it is only the shock.Try it and let us know the results. :fishing:


I know that. I won't use braid on my main line from fear of sawing off digits in the event of a birds nest  But I'm still thinking there may be gains by using it in a shock leader. In my mind, the real question is how much deformation occurs in the shock leader? How much is mono really stretching during the load? If it's not that much, I won't see much, if any at all, of a difference in the cast. If it's substantial, then I may see a gain. And I may gain some by having a smaller knot since I can use a shock leader close to the diameter of my main line.

I also wonder how elastic mono is vs. fluorocarbon. I can feel a difference between them, but aren't sure how much. Fluoro seems much stiffer and less elastic, thus my current choice for leader material. I'll test this out too while I'm at it. 

I enjoy the back and forth on this stuff. I may get more distance from my cast and will learn something for sure, advancing my knowledge of fishing. No way to lose by trying something new.


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## skunk king (Mar 25, 2008)

notso said:


> why do you think that the energy imparted into the line is "wasted"? It seems to me that while the biggest contributor to initial velocity to the sinker is the energy loaded to the rod, energy stored in the line is bound to also "unload" and help accelerate the sinker. Think slingshot....


Wasted may be the wrong word, but the energy won't be released as fast and controlled as it is from the blank. I also imagine the recoil in the line occurs after/as the lead is progressing to flight, not contributing to casting distance. 



notso said:


> My biggest concern about the dual leader is exposing the braid to mono knot being exposed to the full load of casting. On a normal shock leader, the joining knot doesn't see any load because of the wraps on the spool.


that's a really good point. Something to think about.


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## SALTSHAKER (Dec 5, 2002)

*braid/mono shock*

I think I know where you are coming from. Not being one of the long casters etc, I do not think the distance is impaired with the shock leader, the thing I find for myself, regardless of what line is on the reel, braid or mono, the shock leader, or leader if you prefer being mono allows you to grip the line without the fear of one hell of a nasty cut and ruining an otherwise good time out..... salt


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## rattler (Jul 3, 2004)

notso said:


> why do you think that the energy imparted into the line is "wasted"? It seems to me that while the biggest contributor to initial velocity to the sinker is the energy loaded to the rod, energy stored in the line is bound to also "unload" and help accelerate the sinker. Think slingshot....
> 
> My biggest concern about the dual leader is exposing the braid to mono knot being exposed to the full load of casting. On a normal shock leader, the joining knot doesn't see any load because of the wraps on the spool.


 Thats what I was wondering. Braid to hook, then shock, then main? To many knots and the mono will still take the shock on the cast. I see 0 help in the fight when using braid as it offers no help to the rod and reel. It turns them into a crane lifting a load. I tried it. I like it on liter tackle. jmo


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## ReelinRod (May 29, 2003)

skunk king said:


> Then tie another mono leader on the braid to the terminal tackle. That way, just the braid portion of the leader is used on the rod during the cast, giving you the distance gain. And you'll still have 6-8 feet of mono leader on the end to land fish. Sounds crazy eh?


Nothing new or crazy about it, it is what I have been doing for 17+ years.



Cdog said:


> Braid has no stretch which in theory defeats the purpose of a "shock" leader.


I am of the mind that the term "shock leader" is a misnomer; in a properly executed high energy cast there is no "shock" per-se, the power is [should be] applied a smooth progression.

For distance casting, the requirement of a heavier line is simply to resist the centrifugal force of the sinker; a 5oz weight swinging on a 20+ foot radius at a velocity of 180 mph "weighs" 40 lbs.

My position is that the rod is an incredible absorber of energy and 75% of guys casting a "distance" rod don't even come close to fully loading the rod within the prescribed weight range. 

So, the thought that one must rely on a heavy length of mono to "protect" the rod from the "shock" of the cast seems completely nonsensical to me. I want to deliver the maximum energy to the sinker . . . Introducing another component into the process that _saps energy by *stretching*_ does not compute for me.


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## CJS (Oct 2, 2006)

With all the force generated during the cast with a 13' surf rod, especially newer stiffer models, a little stretch in your shock leader might be a good thing. 

I will gladly sacrifice a few feet of distance if it saves my $300+ rod the next time I catch the water on a back cast or my timing is off.


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## AbuMike (Sep 3, 2007)

So what happens when us less accomplished casters using braid unloads a bad a cast where the power comes in way early or late? I can tell you what......snap, crackle, pop and pow goes your rod.....Stick with the mono you know works.....


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## ReelinRod (May 29, 2003)

I have used braid casting leaders on my distance fishing set-ups for 10's of thousands of casts over the years; it is literally all I use. It is also what the vast majority of the highly experienced and successful anglers I know and fish with use.

I have never had a problem with rod breakage and thousands of those casts have been performed fishing hard out on the bar during tournaments and dipping the payload in the water on the backcast. It is something I actually try to do oftentimes to add preload to the rod. While I don't fish the typical "8-N-Bait" with regularity I do use 200gm (7oz) sputniks and a surf clam or a bunker chunk when fishing for stripers.

Honestly I think the discussion of braid leaders on distance/heaver conventional gear is of little consequence as I see zero benefit to using thin (15lb-40lb) braid as a running line so that one would need to use a casting leader . . . On conventional gear, _if I use braid_, I just use 65lb to 80lb braid without a casting leader and do away with knot, the tuning issues and line embedding that happens with thin lines on non-levelwind reels. 

For spinners it is a different ball game. The use of thin braids on distance engineered spools is where phenomenal distance gains are realized. In addition, the best distance performing spinning rod systems feature small guides like Fuji Lowriders which, for practical fishing purposes, eliminate any use of a heavy mono "shock" leader from consideration. 

Such is the configuration of my distance/heaver tackle for nearly the last decade and if the detrimental outcomes of using braid casting leaders are true, they certainly would have appeared by now.

Are braid casting leaders for everyone? Absolutely not . . . Again, I don't really see any need on conventional tackle; for my gear it is .35mm to .40mm running line no matter what the material. That means either 15lb-17lb mono and a mono leader or a straight shot of braid heavy enough to not need a leader.

On spinning gear it is an option that I believe adds fishability. Even on "typical" spinner gear using thin braid running line and a braid leader can help with spinner "issues." Braid adds distance and getting rid of the heavy mono leader minimizes knot grabs and guide wraps because the thinner running line is no longer getting towed by the heavy mono corkscrewing itself though the guides.



AbuMike said:


> So what happens when us less accomplished casters using braid unloads a bad a cast where the power comes in way early or late? I can tell you what......snap, crackle, pop and pow goes your rod.....Stick with the mono you know works.....


I would doubt that such an unrefined motion could deeply load the rod let alone have enough energy to break it. The rod is an incredible absorber of energy and any sudden imparting of energy without the rod being loaded is just soaked up. That's why a caster with a sloppy cast works so hard for his meager results. All bets are off if the rod is overloaded though, a thrasher and a sharpie can break things when that's going on.


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## rattler (Jul 3, 2004)

Great thread. Everyone I know fishes with confidence in their set up. All of the great casters know how to adapt to conditions. 30% can cast straight 90% of the time. Learn the TOOL. IMHO, using #60-80 braid on a rod rated for #20 mono is asking for trouble. It may not break the first time, but it may when you have that big one. I have seen more rods break due to braid than I ever saw when grafite rods came out. What works for you is not works for me. But we learn and try New Things. Its Fishing.


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## skunk king (Mar 25, 2008)

Finally got out to do some testing. The braid shock leader did give me better distance. About 10+ yards worth. I was expecting more and then noticed my guides were iced up and so not sure how much distance that took off my casts. I'll give it another run tomorrow midday and before the temperature drops back below freezing. Another thing I noticed is the reel seems to be able to run a lot faster. So much I'm going to cut back to one white brake instead of the 2 white I have in it now. I was able to really open up the tensioner without backlashing. Not sure if this is from the extra energy going into the lead or the much smaller knot that isn't knocking on the guides. I didn't add the second leader as this was just to test the casting of the braid. I'll wait till February when the big cats are biting again to test it out. Anyway, I'll definitely be playing around with braid leaders this season.


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## stripperonmypole (Oct 24, 2009)

notso said:


> My biggest concern about the dual leader is exposing the braid to mono knot being exposed to the full load of casting. On a normal shock leader, the joining knot doesn't see any load because of the wraps on the spool.


can't say i have the most experience on the subject, but on my drum rigs i use a cannonball setup where i have 50# shock leader tied to my main line and then a 100# bite leader tied to the shock leader (the bite leader is at an appropriate length so that i just reel the line until the bite-to-shock-leader knot reaches the tip of the pole...that way i don't have two knots flying through the guides on my casts). i have never had problems with the knot breaking from seeing too much load. theoretically, if your knots test around 90% of your line strength, and if your line is 50+ pounds of test (as your shock should be), the load should never generate enough force to break your knot.

but, then again, braid to mono connections are always a bit trickier, regardless of test. 

i like this idea of braid shock leader. hmm....time to see if i can do a bimini with braid. what else am i going to do during these cold, fishless times.


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## jobxe327 (Aug 7, 2007)

Sounds like your tryin to reinvent the wheel to Me. And 10,extra yards isn't a lot. Maybe try and watch some of the guys on the banks that always have fish on the sand that's how I learned everthing I know. Idk what is wrong with mono been used a long time as shock. And I can gurantee the legends in my mind I watched and patterned after growing up don't get there extra distance(that is mostly why they catch the # they do) from braid shock they get its from technique and how they cast.


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## Ed K (Mar 1, 2007)

As has been stated on this board and others many times *the purpose of a shock leader is to absorb the shock of the weight being hit in the cast*. Braid has no stretch which will not allow it to absorb the shock all you have is a leader. If you think you need to try to eliminate something to try to transfer more energy into the rod to gain distance you need to look in the obvious place technique. Working on you casting technique will gain you more distance than anything else. If you cannot properly load your rod then you either need to work on technique or find a rod that you can properly load. Another point is just because you "new shock leader" allows you to load the rod better how do you know that you are not loading the blank beyond it's designed limits, becasue it has not broken on a couple of casts? It could being doing damage to the fibers of the material in the blank that will just keep degrading until it breaks. I have seen a lot of people that thought thew were good to great casters and that they were maxxed out until they had someone like Tommy or Ryan White show them how screwed up their technique was and they gained a lot more distance by being able to properly load the rod. As a rod builder I have seen the damage to blanks and guides torn off caused by people (who you know and have fished locally with) when playing around with braid as "shock leaders".


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## stripperonmypole (Oct 24, 2009)

Ed K said:


> As has been stated on this board and others many times *the purpose of a shock leader is to absorb the shock of the weight being hit in the cast*. Braid has no stretch which will not allow it to absorb the shock all you have is a leader. If you think you need to try to eliminate something to try to transfer more energy into the rod to gain distance you need to look in the obvious place technique. Working on you casting technique will gain you more distance than anything else. If you cannot properly load your rod then you either need to work on technique or find a rod that you can properly load. Another point is just because you "new shock leader" allows you to load the rod better how do you know that you are not loading the blank beyond it's designed limits, becasue it has not broken on a couple of casts? It could being doing damage to the fibers of the material in the blank that will just keep degrading until it breaks. I have seen a lot of people that thought thew were good to great casters and that they were maxxed out until they had someone like Tommy or Ryan White show them how screwed up their technique was and they gained a lot more distance by being able to properly load the rod. As a rod builder I have seen the damage to blanks and guides torn off caused by people (who you know and have fished locally with) when playing around with braid as "shock leaders".


i could see how using braid as a shock leader could be damaging to your guides, and that's a definite negative. however, when you say that the purpose of the shock leader is to "absorb the shock of the weight being hit in the cast", isn't the purpose of THAT (absorbing the shock) to keep your 15-17 lb mainline from snapping from the force of the cast? even though braid has no stretch, shouldn't a 70-80 lb test easily "absorb the shock" aka not snap from the force of the cast? and since it doesn't stretch, as the OP has stated, this transfers more energy into your cast. that's the idea, anyway. if your casting is smooth and isn't jerky, such a high-test braid shouldn't pop.


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## Ed K (Mar 1, 2007)

stripperonmypole said:


> i could see how using braid as a shock leader could be damaging to your guides, and that's a definite negative. however, when you say that the purpose of the shock leader is to "absorb the shock of the weight being hit in the cast", isn't the purpose of THAT (absorbing the shock) to keep your 15-17 lb mainline from snapping from the force of the cast? even though braid has no stretch, shouldn't a 70-80 lb test easily "absorb the shock" aka not snap from the force of the cast? and since it doesn't stretch, as the OP has stated, this transfers more energy into your cast. that's the idea, anyway. if your casting is smooth and isn't jerky, such a high-test braid shouldn't pop.


braid is strong as chit on a straight pull but if you put a snap into it it will break, granted if your cast isn't jerky it can withstand casting. The main point of my post was/is work on the technique to properly load your rod in the cast and you don't have to rely on something that is not proven and could be dangerous even deadly to others nearby.


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## skunk king (Mar 25, 2008)

stripperonmypole said:


> however, when you say that the purpose of the shock leader is to "absorb the shock of the weight being hit in the cast", isn't the purpose of THAT (absorbing the shock) to keep your 15-17 lb mainline from snapping from the force of the cast? even though braid has no stretch, shouldn't a 70-80 lb test easily "absorb the shock" aka not snap from the force of the cast? and since it doesn't stretch, as the OP has stated, this transfers more energy into your cast. that's the idea, anyway. if your casting is smooth and isn't jerky, such a high-test braid shouldn't pop.


Yep, shock leaders are their because 17-20 lb main line snaps on the cast with heavier weights. 



Ed K said:


> braid is strong as chit on a straight pull but if you put a snap into it it will break, granted if your cast isn't jerky it can withstand casting. The main point of my post was/is work on the technique to properly load your rod in the cast and you don't have to rely on something that is not proven and could be dangerous even deadly to others nearby.


I don't understand the "not proven" point of view. Nothing new is ever proven, that's why it's tested out, to see how well it works and prove it or ditch it. I'm not relying on a braid leader for distance any more than I'm relying on carbon fiber blanks(instead of using bamboo) to get distance. I use technology to enhance my skills, not as a substitute for them. If I can get another 10+ yards just from using a different leader, then I don't see how that is a bad thing. I agree that you have to work on technique and I do that as well. I also agree that braid can damage a rod as the extra force it transfers to the guides and wraps can rip them off. So I'm also playing around with ways to better secure the guides to prevent breakage, like using a Forhan locking wraps on double foot guides and double wrapping the overwrap. I make my own rods and so aren't concerned with losing a couple guides as I can easily replace them. I don't see the downside to trying something new, especially since there are lots of people that say they've done the same thing or something similar for years and with good results. We'll never learn or progress if we don't try new things.


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## jamesriverrat (Apr 30, 2009)

As has been stated on this board and others many times the purpose of a shock leader is to absorb the shock of the weight being hit in the cast. Braid has no stretch which will not allow it to absorb the shock all you have is a leader. If you think you need to try to eliminate something to try to transfer more energy into the rod to gain distance you need to look in the obvious place technique. Working on you casting technique will gain you more distance than anything else. If you cannot properly load your rod then you either need to work on technique or find a rod that you can properly load. Another point is just because you "new shock leader" allows you to load the rod better how do you know that you are not loading the blank beyond it's designed limits, becasue it has not broken on a couple of casts? It could being doing damage to the fibers of the material in the blank that will just keep degrading until it breaks. I have seen a lot of people that thought thew were good to great casters and that they were maxxed out until they had someone like Tommy or Ryan White show them how screwed up their technique was and they gained a lot more distance by being able to properly load the rod. As a rod builder I have seen the damage to blanks and guides torn off caused by people (who you know and have fished locally with) when playing around with braid as "shock leaders". 




maybe the guides weren't attached to the blank properly?


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## AbuMike (Sep 3, 2007)

this comes up every winter and sometimes more than once. you will never convince some that you can't buy, cheat or re-invent distance. only practice will get you what you seek. you can spend countless amounts of time and money trying new hardware and never get more than 30-50' more. learning to use what you have is the key as said many times before.....


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## Ed K (Mar 1, 2007)

jamesriverrat said:


> maybe the guides weren't attached to the blank properly?


They were properly attached to the rod as have been all the guides I have wrapped on rods in the last 20+ years.


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## Ed K (Mar 1, 2007)

skunk king said:


> , like using a Forhan locking wraps on double foot guides and double wrapping the overwrap.


How do you propose to use a Forhan locking wrap on a double foot guide as it is designed for single foot guides, unless you cut your thread and pass it under the guide to lock it in? On a double foot wrap each wrap essentially locks the guide in, it should not be able to slide forward or backward because of the wrap on each foot. On a Forhan wrap the tread is wrapped around the bottom of the frame of the guide 2-3 times and then of 4-5+ wraps of thread past the guide to prevent the guide from being pulled forward and out. Double overwraps would be a good idea but will add weight to the rod.


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## skunk king (Mar 25, 2008)

Ed K said:


> How do you propose to use a Forhan locking wrap on a double foot guide as it is designed for single foot guides, unless you cut your thread and pass it under the guide to lock it in? On a double foot wrap each wrap essentially locks the guide in, it should not be able to slide forward or backward because of the wrap on each foot. On a Forhan wrap the tread is wrapped around the bottom of the frame of the guide 2-3 times and then of 4-5+ wraps of thread past the guide to prevent the guide from being pulled forward and out. Double overwraps would be a good idea but will add weight to the rod.


yep, cutting it and wrapping it under by hand. I would do this so there is 0 chance of movement on the guide. I'm thinking that since the guide feet are so short, the slightest deformation can pull them threw the wrap. A locking thread may keep them snug to the blank at all times, preventing any movement. Another option is wrapping up them a little further than I typically do. Anyway, don't have a concrete solution to this and am still working it out. One thing working against me is I like smaller guides on my rods and may have to start using larger ones to get more metal and strength on the feet.


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## ReelinRod (May 29, 2003)

Ed K said:


> As has been stated on this board and others many times *the purpose of a shock leader is to absorb the shock of the weight being hit in the cast*. Braid has no stretch which will not allow it to absorb the shock


Just because it has been labeled a "shock" leader doesn't mean much. Really I just think that everyone agreed a long time ago that _centrifugal force resistance leader_ just didn't roll off the tongue as easy.

Just where and how does this "shock" manifest itself during a cast?



Ed K said:


> how do you know that you are not loading the blank beyond it's designed limits, becasue it has not broken on a couple of casts?


I built this All Star 1507 back in 2003 with Fuji Lowriders and at that time I had already been using braid casting leaders for nearly 9 years. 










This rod was built specifically for that reel for surf fishing tournaments in New Jersey to put 5-6ozs and a baited hook 500+ft from the beach. It did that and much more for thousands and thousands of casts with 65lb braid leader and 20lb braid running line and is still in service today.

The setup remains one of my furthest casting setups and 700ft OTG with a bare sinker is not exaggerating.



Ed K said:


> As a rod builder I have seen the damage to blanks and guides torn off caused by people (who you know and have fished locally with) when playing around with braid as "shock leaders".


There is no risk of damage on high performance rods engineered for distance that are cast using a refined motion within their weight range.

The only rod I have ever snapped I did with a *mono* shock leader (in a casting tournament). The only rods I have ever ripped guides off were on casts with *mono* shock leaders.


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## ReelinRod (May 29, 2003)

Ed K said:


> you don't have to rely on something that is not proven and could be dangerous even deadly to others nearby.


On distance fishing spinning gear the use of braid casting leaders is proven.

Deadly? In tourneys up here you have 30+ teams of 6 surfcasters in 150ft positions and 80% are using spinners and braid/braid.

On the higher performance rods the guides used today mandate their use.

(although I do use the All Star 1507 with Lowriders above for the 100gm in casting tournaments (25mm running line and 65mm shocker)



AbuMike said:


> you will never convince some that you can't buy, cheat or re-invent distance. only practice will get you what you seek. you can spend countless amounts of time and money trying new hardware and never get more than 30-50' more. learning to use what you have is the key as said many times before.....


And you're someone who just spent $350 for the new 7HT ST?


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## skunk king (Mar 25, 2008)

ReelinRod said:


> I built this All Star 1507 back in 2003 with Fuji Lowriders and at that time I had already been using braid casting leaders for nearly 9 years.
> 
> This rod was built specifically for that reel for surf fishing tournaments in New Jersey to put 5-6ozs and a baited hook 500+ft from the beach. It did that and much more for thousands and thousands of casts with 65lb braid leader and 20lb braid running line and is still in service today.


I think the difference is spinning vs. conventional. When you cast a spinning rod, the force of the load is going down from the guides and into the blank because the rod is upside down when you cast with the blank closet to the ground. So all the load is pushing through the guides and into the blank. The converse is true on a conventional, the guides will bear the load and be pulled away from the blank with the guides closest to the ground. Look at your profile pic for an example of what I'm talking about. So I think there is greater risk of pulling off guides on a conventional vs. spinning. Of course no one casts at 90 degrees and straight back all the time so some force will try to push the guides around the blank on a spinning setup as the rod is off angles, but this force should be inconsequential. 


Glad to see you have such a good history with your setup. As Ed has said, we know of a guy that has ripped off the guides on a conventional with a braid shock leader. He's a great caster and can deeply load the blank. There's some debate as to the cause of the break off and I hope Ed doesn't take the debate as me taking shots at his work. He makes some very nice rods that anyone would be proud to own. As I've said, my thoughts are braid puts extra force on the guides, enough that they should be reinforced beyond what we typically do on 8-n-baits. You can't blame the rod builder for using the rod beyond the range of expected performance.


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## AbuMike (Sep 3, 2007)

ReelinRod said:


> And you're someone who just spent $350 for the new 7HT ST?


And the statement above has what to do with what? Last time I checked the funds for the reels I buy comes out of my pocket.

Once again you miss the point....I have NEVER once said I was trying to buy distance. I do however try and buy ease of use. That you can buy within the realm of fishing equipment. I have never been to or have any interest in participating in a field casting tournament. I am a fisherman 100%. I go to the field to try new fishing reels and rods when I get them. I throw fishing set ups....#17-#20 mono a #50 shock leader with 7-8oz lead and a baited FF rig. A lot of fisherman get caught up in this fantasy of the 150yd fishing tackle cast. Now I'm not saying it has never been done. I'm sure it has by a very very few. You may very well get your rig out 500'+ from the beach and 700' with an OTG cast with just lead. 

This started as....gains in distance by using a braid shock leader...then progressed to the stress associated with the use of braided lines on the average rod. If one so chooses to try these things thats cool. Just don't be surprised when your met with hostility when something stupid happens. One thing I can garentee..If fishing from the beach most guys will not grab a braided shock leader and help you land a fish...


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## Jesse Lockowitz (Feb 13, 2006)

AbuMike said:


> And the statement above has what to do with what? Last time I checked the funds for the reels I buy comes out of my pocket.
> 
> Once again you miss the point....I have NEVER once said I was trying to buy distance. I do however try and buy ease of use. That you can buy within the realm of fishing equipment. I have never been to or have any interest in participating in a field casting tournament. I am a fisherman 100%. I go to the field to try new fishing reels and rods when I get them. I throw fishing set ups....#17-#20 mono a #50 shock leader with 7-8oz lead and a baited FF rig. A lot of fisherman get caught up in this fantasy of the 150yd fishing tackle cast. Now I'm not saying it has never been done. I'm sure it has by a very very few. You may very well get your rig out 500'+ from the beach and 700' with an OTG cast with just lead.
> 
> This started as....gains in distance by using a braid shock leader...then progressed to the stress associated with the use of braided lines on the average rod. If one so chooses to try these things thats cool. Just don't be surprised when your met with hostility when something stupid happens. One thing I can garentee..If fishing from the beach most guys will not grab a braided shock leader and help you land a fish...


----------



## AbuMike (Sep 3, 2007)

Jesse Lockowitz said:


>


What????


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## Jesse Lockowitz (Feb 13, 2006)

AbuMike said:


> *Just don't be surprised when your met with hostility when something stupid happens*.


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## AbuMike (Sep 3, 2007)

Jesse Lockowitz said:


>


Got it...................


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## Hooked Up (Feb 6, 2009)

who has that 7ht st for $350.00...........ide like another


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## AbuMike (Sep 3, 2007)

Hooked Up said:


> who has that 7ht st for $350.00...........ide like another


LOL...you caught that also.....


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## stripperonmypole (Oct 24, 2009)

i think it's wrong to accuse people of "trying to buy distance" when this is no different from investing in a rod that will make fishing more enjoyable. in fact, such an accusation on this thread specifically is downright ridiculous. if there's a technique (ie braided leader) that could help someone get more distance, why not use it? if someone were to discover a new knot that gave them 99% knot strength, would you accuse them of "trying to buy line strength"? bottom line is, if it works, it works. for some reason people get all worked up on these forums whenever the word "braid" is mentioned. sure, it can (barely) be more dangerous than mono, but we're talking about hardly 5 yards of it here. it's like everything else in fishing..as long as you're careful no one will get hurt.


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## skunk king (Mar 25, 2008)

stripperonmypole said:


> i think it's wrong to accuse people of "trying to buy distance" when this is no different from investing in a rod that will make fishing more enjoyable. in fact, such an accusation on this thread specifically is downright ridiculous. if there's a technique (ie braided leader) that could help someone get more distance, why not use it? if someone were to discover a new knot that gave them 99% knot strength, would you accuse them of "trying to buy line strength"? bottom line is, if it works, it works. for some reason people get all worked up on these forums whenever the word "braid" is mentioned. sure, it can (barely) be more dangerous than mono, but we're talking about hardly 5 yards of it here. it's like everything else in fishing..as long as you're careful no one will get hurt.


Thanks. I also don't see how improved distance can be a negative. I don't care if I get distance through better technique, better equipment, or waking up and crowing with the rooster each morning. I just care that I've got the best distance that I can get.


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## AbuMike (Sep 3, 2007)

All I'm saying is.....why are you trying to re invent the wheel before you have learned to build the cart..


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## jobxe327 (Aug 7, 2007)

Some people are unteavhable. There is so much knowledge and great technique on here and out were we all fish some folks need to step back and actually look at these methods and quit reinventing things that arnt broke. I mean come on not trying to bash skunk king but every thing I read from you says to Me you have a problem with the rigs and setups most use. It's like you wana say 99%of everyone is rong. And some of these guys are untouchable if I ever become half as good of fisherman ill be happy with myself. It's just like I see the post were you believe that heavers are overkill for drum, how circle hooks set there self with no effort from the angler its just like maybe instead of tryin to reinvent how moat fish and just listinging a little you'll learn more my grandad always said you won't learn nothin if your always jawin. And I'm not caling you out or trying to start a pisin match just sayin tryin new things are great and can work but when in Rome.


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## NTKG (Aug 16, 2003)

skunk king said:


> Finally got out to do some testing. The braid shock leader did give me better distance. About 10+ yards worth. I was expecting more and then noticed my guides were iced up and so not sure how much distance that took off my casts. I'll give it another run tomorrow midday and before the temperature drops back below freezing. Another thing I noticed is the reel seems to be able to run a lot faster. So much I'm going to cut back to one white brake instead of the 2 white I have in it now. I was able to really open up the tensioner without backlashing. Not sure if this is from the extra energy going into the lead or the much smaller knot that isn't knocking on the guides. I didn't add the second leader as this was just to test the casting of the braid. I'll wait till February when the big cats are biting again to test it out. Anyway, I'll definitely be playing around with braid leaders this season.


its cold. guess what the cold does to bearing lube?


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## NTKG (Aug 16, 2003)

jobxe327 said:


> some people are unteavhable. There is so much knowledge and great technique on here and out were we all fish some folks need to step back and actually look at these methods and quit reinventing things that arnt broke. I mean come on not trying to bash skunk king but every thing i read from you says to me you have a problem with the rigs and setups most use. It's like you wana say 99%of everyone is rong. And some of these guys are untouchable if i ever become half as good of fisherman ill be happy with myself. It's just like i see the post were you believe that heavers are overkill for drum, how circle hooks set there self with no effort from the angler its just like maybe instead of tryin to reinvent how moat fish and just listinging a little you'll learn more my grandad always said you won't learn nothin if your always jawin. And i'm not caling you out or trying to start a pisin match just sayin tryin new things are great and can work but when in rome.


+1


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## ReelinRod (May 29, 2003)

AbuMike said:


> Once again you miss the point....I have NEVER once said I was trying to buy distance. I do however try and buy ease of use. That you can buy within the realm of fishing equipment.


I'm calling euphemistic shenanigans.

All the tweaking and tuning and purchasing is done without any expectation of increased distance? 

Ease of use huh? Makes it easier to cast farther? 

I'm not afraid to say that an investment in engineered equipment can add distance. It is kinda goofy to say that it doesn't (especially while making those investments).



AbuMike said:


> I have never been to or have any interest in participating in a field casting tournament. I am a fisherman 100%.


Ummmmmm Okayyyy . . . 



AbuMike said:


> This started as....gains in distance by using a braid shock leader...


That was half of it. The thread title and what I initially replied to was about a length of mono leader for a bite/chafe/grab leader and how I have been doing that for 17 years. The "casts farther" thing is a given; no stretch gives you a more deeply loaded rod. Uhhhhh, Isn't that why the rods break????



AbuMike said:


> If one so chooses to try these things thats cool. Just don't be surprised when your met with hostility when something stupid happens.


I "tried" braid casting leaders 17 years ago and have been using them ever since. If my _stupid hasn't happened in 17 years_ experience is met with hostility then I think that the hostility is more a product of what you don't know than what I do know. 

Hand-wringing speculation about severed fingers and snapped rods make great wintertime reading but it is no substitute for actually using braid casting leaders for a long time without any of your predicted trauma or drama.



AbuMike said:


> One thing I can garentee..If fishing from the beach most guys will not grab a braided shock leader and help you land a fish...


Neither will I . . . I grab a nice thick 5ft length of 80lb mono; which is the topic of the thread.



AbuMike said:


> Hooked Up said:
> 
> 
> > who has that 7ht st for $350.00...........ide like another
> ...


Plus $16 shipping . . .


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## AbuMike (Sep 3, 2007)

ok.................


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## fish bucket (Dec 5, 2002)

i,for one, would be ecstatic if i gained 10yds just by changing my leader!
10 yds is huge when inches count.


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## skunk king (Mar 25, 2008)

AbuMike said:


> All I'm saying is.....why are you trying to re invent the wheel before you have learned to build the cart..


You don't know me Mike any more than I know you. So I'm not sure where you are coming from with this. 



jobxe327 said:


> Some people are unteavhable. There is so much knowledge and great technique on here and out were we all fish some folks need to step back and actually look at these methods and quit reinventing things that arnt broke. I mean come on not trying to bash skunk king but every thing I read from you says to Me you have a problem with the rigs and setups most use. It's like you wana say 99%of everyone is rong. And some of these guys are untouchable if I ever become half as good of fisherman ill be happy with myself. It's just like I see the post were you believe that heavers are overkill for drum, how circle hooks set there self with no effort from the angler its just like maybe instead of tryin to reinvent how moat fish and just listinging a little you'll learn more my grandad always said you won't learn nothin if your always jawin. And I'm not caling you out or trying to start a pisin match just sayin tryin new things are great and can work but when in Rome.


Not sure where you're coming from with this one. I ask questions, you seem to take that as an attack. It's not, I want to know why some do the things they do. One of my professors had a great story about this. His wife cooked the best Christmas hams who learned how to cook them from her Mom who learned to cook them from her Mom. The wife was teaching her daughter to cook hams and the first thing they did was cut off the ends of the ham. The daughter asked why? The mom said she didn't know why, but that's what her Mom did and they turned out great so that's what she did. So they asked the Grandmother why she cut off the ends of the ham and she said she didn't know, that's what her Mom always did. So they asked the Great Grandmother why she cut of the ends of the ham and she said because her pan was too small to hold a ham and so she cut the ends off. So cutting the ends off had absolutely nothing to do why the hams turned out so great. See where I'm going? If you just learn what is done and ignore the why, then you're unable to adapt your knowledge to the current situation, like the Mom and Grandmother having a pan large enough to hold a full ham and so cut off the ends for no good reason. 

I'm also not sure how getting better distance, casting the exact same way on the exact same pole with the exact same reel, with a small deviation in leader setup is tantamount to reinventing the wheel or claiming 99% of everything else is wrong. My question was evolutionary, not revolutionary. 




NTKG said:


> its cold. guess what the cold does to bearing lube?


Right Neil, I know you know everything and so also know that I casted with the mono and braid leaders at the same time, switching them out between casts. So the cold wouldn't have been a differentiating factor. But if knew how I did my test casts, you wouldn't have made a snarky comment. So maybe you don't know everything after all? perplexing. 




ReelinRod said:


> I'm calling euphemistic shenanigans.
> 
> All the tweaking and tuning and purchasing is done without any expectation of increased distance?
> 
> ...


Ditto



ReelinRod said:


> That was half of it. The thread title and what I initially replied to was about a length of mono leader for a bite/chafe/grab leader and how I have been doing that for 17 years. The "casts farther" thing is a given; no stretch gives you a more deeply loaded rod. Uhhhhh, Isn't that why the rods break????
> 
> I "tried" braid casting leaders 17 years ago and have been using them ever since. If my _stupid hasn't happened in 17 years_ experience is met with hostility then I think that the hostility is more a product of what you don't know than what I do know.
> 
> Hand-wringing speculation about severed fingers and snapped rods make great wintertime reading but it is no substitute for actually using braid casting leaders for a long time without any of your predicted trauma or drama.


Well said. 

But I do have fears of braid as the mainline on a conventional reel. Have you had a loop get caught on a digit while casting your spinning outfit? Did it do any damage? I think this kind of thing would be rare on a spinning rod and it's happened to me a couple times on a conventional. With 8-n-bait and mono line, it took a chunk of flesh with it. My fear is braid would be worse. Is that fear unfounded? 

What kind of knot do you use to connect the 80lb mono to your braid shock leader?


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## Hanginon (Jan 11, 2008)

It is shocking to me (pun intended) how polarising the braid/mono debate always becomes. Back in 2009, I started a thread here questioning why braid wasn't allowed in distance casting competitions - it also quickly turned into a fire storm. It is little wonder the high end spinning reels optimised for braid are not available here (USA) through the normal distribution channels.

For what it is worth, I also cast (spinning) with a 65# braid "load leader" that is tied to a 100# stainless steel swivel (with a uni knot). Everything from that point on (to the casting weight) is 50# mono or fluorocarbon. Works great.


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## AbuMike (Sep 3, 2007)

I wish more of you had been at the little seminar a few years back at Randys place when Kenny was busting everyones shock leader to main connections. Eyes were opened wide that day I tell ya.


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## NTKG (Aug 16, 2003)

SKUNKY, so your scientific testing.... Was it as scientific as when you said this on Rob's Board? Or is it more like when your STURGEON fishing?

"I just recently changed how I setup my reel which changed the way I cast which allowed me to get into the 200 yard cast range."


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## Hooked Up (Feb 6, 2009)

wow slingin bait 600 feet..................thats two legends in one year


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## chuck(skidmark) (Jul 11, 2004)

Jesse Lockowitz said:


> this thread made me *POOP MYSELF*


You shouldn't say that Jesse....that's where nicknames come from.


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## CrawFish (Sep 23, 2003)

Tacpayne said:


> Maybe Poopawitz...


Nice! where's the "Like" button?


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## skunk king (Mar 25, 2008)

I caught more than 1 fish too hater


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## Ed K (Mar 1, 2007)

Sounds like we need a castamuck!!!!!!!


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## NTKG (Aug 16, 2003)

skunk king said:


> Funny thing is we've already seen mighty mouth go down this road, only to finish last, barely getting half way over the river. Some people just never learn.


well your right... No matter what kind of shockleader I use, or space age lube... I can't get the 200 yards like you can.... 

Please tell us all how its done....


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## CrawFish (Sep 23, 2003)

Hmmmm!


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## AbuMike (Sep 3, 2007)

Ed K said:


> Sounds like we need a castamuck!!!!!!!


I've said this a number of times. I know I'm not a 150yd 8nbait caster so won't hurt my feelings.....


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## NTKG (Aug 16, 2003)

skunk king said:


> First step is growing another 4 feet to reach average height. And then practice instead of spending your time pretending you know a thing about me and what I do.


is that with or without a braid shockleader? 

Hows about this. Since I can't cast and talk sh*t and you can cast and don't heres this.


I will meet you at a location of your choice. Bring whatever heaver combo you would like. We will have a few people to judge/measure. We both get 5 casts with 8oz and a simulated bait. Winner of distance gets two things:

1. The other persons heaver combo
2. The loser stops posting on Pier and Surf.


My mightymouth has spoken. In public where everyone else can see it. Put up or shut up


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## Ed K (Mar 1, 2007)

AbuMike said:


> I've said this a number of times. I know I'm not a 150yd 8nbait caster so won't hurt my feelings.....


I know how far I can cast ......far enough to catch more paper fish than he has dreamed about


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## AbuMike (Sep 3, 2007)

Ed K said:


> I know how far I can cast ......far enough to catch more paper fish than he has dreamed about


thats the key ed. getting it far enough. hell i fished a good looking spot last year that was only 50yds or so out....


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## chris storrs (Aug 25, 2005)

dear god, im short and fat...wheres that leave me?
glad i aint start this thread

if reelin rod uses braid "shock" leaders and it works for him, and the west coast roosterfish pluggers, among others, theres somethin to it...ive seen him cast many times, and further than id think anyone else whos posted thus far(to my knowlege), ill take his word it works, dont mean i gotta try it..he likes it, other like it...his 1507 which by our standards as drum fishermen is a "light" heaver can put a bait 500 feet with 200 grams (which some of you may not believe, but those who dont aint seen his throw a spinner either) isnt broken....and hes a big boy with plenty power

that said, ill continue using mono...

far as half way across the river?????, ive seen NTKG cast fished with him god knows how many times,and hes right there with the best of them(i fish with them too), but is fun too piss off so i know where your comin from skunk king


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## AL_N_VB (Apr 3, 2002)

Lets all hope this is just the cabin fever talkin'. I will move this thread to the lounge if the constant bashing and name calling continues. If a square pegs somehow fits in a round hole.. then let it be. 

If the braid shock leaders works for you then that's your opinion. Its just a consensus and a staple at most of the Beaches and Piers to the South, that mono is used as a shock leader. There has been a many big fish landed and lost on mono leaders. Respect others and they will respect you. 

I on the other hand do tie my leaders the conventional way = both on my speed jigging and beach fishing tackle


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## chris storrs (Aug 25, 2005)

ill be a jugde at said competition, and will also be accepting bets...$50 on NTKG to start things off....


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## Jesse Lockowitz (Feb 13, 2006)

chris storrs said:


> ill be a jugde at said competition, and will also be accepting bets...$50 on NTKG to start things off....


u cant judge, you gotta know how to read a tape measurer(or atleast know numbers for a range finder)


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## AbuMike (Sep 3, 2007)

AL_N_VB said:


> Lets all hope this is just the cabin fever talkin'. I will move this thread to the lounge if the constant bashing and name calling continues. If a square pegs somehow fits in a round hole.. then let it be.
> 
> If the braid shock leaders works for you then that's your opinion. Its just a consensus and a staple at most of the Beaches and Piers to the South, that mono is used as a shock leader. There has been a many big fish landed and lost on mono leaders. Respect others and they will respect you.
> 
> I on the other hand do tie my leaders the conventional way = both on my speed jigging and beach fishing tackle



The voice of reason. maybe we will move this to the other place....


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## Jesse Lockowitz (Feb 13, 2006)

chris storrs said:


> ive seen NTKG cast fished with him,but is fun too piss off so i know where your comin from skunk king


ill put a +1 next to that statement


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## skunk king (Mar 25, 2008)

yeah, let's just move it. Lord knows that trying something other than what the local loonies use is enough to start a pissing match.


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## skunk king (Mar 25, 2008)

NTKG said:


> is that with or without a braid shockleader?
> 
> Hows about this. Since I can't cast and talk sh*t and you can cast and don't heres this.
> 
> ...


I don't want to take your rod. And I really don't care to see you again.


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## jobxe327 (Aug 7, 2007)

He don't want your rod as he stated it is way to much rod to drum fish with.


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## chuck(skidmark) (Jul 11, 2004)

chris storrs said:


> ill be a jugde at said competition, and will also be accepting bets...$50 on NTKG to start things off....



If you take bribes I'm in too.


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## NTKG (Aug 16, 2003)

CrawFish said:


> "Like"
> 
> Where's that dang "Like" button? Ug!












we talkin bout the elusive BL-Monster?


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## chris storrs (Aug 25, 2005)

icehouse? really

and i dont needa tape measure...whichever bait ends up closer to mine(the furthest of the 3) wins


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## chuck(skidmark) (Jul 11, 2004)

This is the funniest crap that I've read in years!


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## HighCap56 (Oct 21, 2003)

I'm loving this thread and getting my popcorn. opcorn:

NTKG is going to have a nice new combo.

Growing 4 more feet is probably out of the question for any of the A/C.

If Beer made you grow then Al should be 10ft tall...

Had to come out of retirement in CA just to tag into this big challenge.

Will there be video of the crying too?


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## Ed K (Mar 1, 2007)

Well I guess he isn't up to the challenge too bad would have been fun to watch and listen. Chuck maybe you could get Joe to judge it if it happens.


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## CrawFish (Sep 23, 2003)

Everyone's toes go stepped on today.. and no boby's feeling got hurt.. and clean draws. Success!


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## chuck(skidmark) (Jul 11, 2004)

Ed K said:


> Well I guess he isn't up to the challenge too bad would have been fun to watch and listen. Chuck maybe you could get Joe to judge it if it happens.



Judge? Hell he could out throw either of them!


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## Jesse Lockowitz (Feb 13, 2006)

NTKG said:


> we talkin bout the elusive BL-Monster?


NO, we talkin bout the elusive lap monster...












use the power of the wok neil. you can probably outcast him. and chris, stand up when ur talking to me. haha


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## Ed K (Mar 1, 2007)

chuck(skidmark) said:


> Judge? Hell he could out throw either of them!


Very true and he would talk about it to them either lol. How is he haven't talked to him for a long time.


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## Jesse Lockowitz (Feb 13, 2006)

ok , so i know its early in the year, but.......i am gonna nominate this thread for the best of the year..


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## CrawFish (Sep 23, 2003)

Got my vote! Along with my FB post.


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## Drumdum (Jan 6, 2003)

> Skunk King-I don't want to take your rod. And I really don't care to see you again.








CrawFish said:


> Yeah dude, don't crap yourself over that. NTKG is not a very likeable person.


 To me,that's funny chit right there...opcorn::beer:


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## AbuMike (Sep 3, 2007)

heck with casting....i'm hangin with the beer guy....El Nino is that you???? you finished cuttin my grass??????


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## AL_N_VB (Apr 3, 2002)

dont-cha love January? I can't wait for Febuary...

Everyone should take up jigging for tuna, HO'in on boats, tieing rigs, cleaning out there tackle ,train for a marathon, in the off season, . It'll lighten ya up and keep your mind at ease.

BTW... that sure is a purdy fridge.


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## WV Cobbmullet (Dec 2, 2008)

Man this thread beats the hell out of reruns on TV, break out theopcorn:


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## AbuMike (Sep 3, 2007)

yeah we must be gettin mellow. a thread like this with 115 replies and it ain't locked down yet......


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## Fish Hunter (Jul 31, 2002)

This has been the best 15 min of my day. And just when I thought my honorary membership was in danger, because nothing had been heard from the A/C since AL got neutered. :--|


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## AL_N_VB (Apr 3, 2002)

Don.. life happens. We are all still alive and kicking..but gettin wives, having kids and going back to college threw a wrench in our expeditions. We plan to be friends for a while.


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## CrawFish (Sep 23, 2003)

Drumdum said:


> To me,that's funny chit right there...opcorn::beer:


Glad you enjoy that...how's the family, hope to see you this year.


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## citation (Dec 8, 2010)

I saw some pics of the red and black diawa, what is the name of this reel and where can you buy them?


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## skunk king (Mar 25, 2008)

chris storrs said:


> if niels an a$$hole i need to find more friends like him, because hes one of 3 or 4 people to ever take me fishing...
> 
> fishing classes aint a bad idea, only person i know to backlash a spinning reel on a 50 class cobe..
> opcorn:
> ...


That's great. It really is and that's one good thing I hear about him. But doing good deeds doesn't give one a license to be a Prima dona and poo-poo on everyone else, especially the Wal-mart rod type fishermen. And that's the side of him I've seen on the river and I was appalled. 

And I'm still not sure how a shock leader question ended up in this state. Somehow or another, a question (IE asking advice and by default admitting I didn't know how it would work) turned into accusations that I want to reinvent the wheel, am talking crap about how everyone else fishes, questioning other's build quality when I said the opposite, instantly turned into a die-hard braid user, claiming I'm the best fisherman on the planet, disparaging other people's ability to fish, and being told that more or less since some guy uses only a mono leader, that's all that will work. It's koo-koo land. Some people here are just crazy! One of my favorites was claims of buying high end distance gear just for the heck of it. 

I'm an inquisitive person and ask questions. Somehow or another this is interpreted as talking chit. Well no, it's just asking a question. And I wouldn't engage in questions if I thought those I asked were inferior or worthless. Of course NTK has to jump in an take a couple shots at me, but that's his shtick from what I hear and the way it's been here. 

Anyway, some people just seem stuck on what they do being the only way to do things and see everything else as a threat somehow or another. And in my experience, people with that attitude generally aren't all that great at what they do because they have shut off their brains and aren't learning anymore. Even Jesse James still reads on how to weld and make bikes, perpetually honing his craft. That's what the best do, not lash out in fear at questions and experiments. Even if the experiment fails, you're generally better off as you learn why it failed. Specifically to this topic a very experienced angler and caster said he's done the same thing for 17 years with great results. Seems the law of "dis is d way it's done" would kick in and listen to what Rod had to say. But no, the "not invented here" law kicked in and poop was the byproduct.


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## rattler (Jul 3, 2004)

NTKG said:


> what happens when the kids who try and fit square pegs into round holes grow up.....





skunk king said:


> That's great. It really is and that's one good thing I hear about him. But doing good deeds doesn't give one a license to be a Prima dona and poo-poo on everyone else, especially the Wal-mart rod type fishermen. And that's the side of him I've seen on the river and I was appalled.
> 
> And I'm still not sure how a shock leader question ended up in this state. Somehow or another, a question (IE asking advice and by default admitting I didn't know how it would work) turned into accusations that I want to reinvent the wheel, am talking crap about how everyone else fishes, questioning other's build quality when I said the opposite, instantly turned into a die-hard braid user, claiming I'm the best fisherman on the planet, disparaging other people's ability to fish, and being told that more or less since some guy uses only a mono leader, that's all that will work. It's koo-koo land. Some people here are just crazy! One of my favorites was claims of buying high end distance gear just for the heck of it.
> 
> ...


SO. From post 56-126 there was a "Chat" that was not on the question. New stuff has ALWAYS been about trying NEW THINGS. Or OLD THINGS!!! Or Different THINGS. Fishing is LIFE. Always LEARNING. Don't be a lemming.


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## AbuMike (Sep 3, 2007)

citation said:


> I saw some pics of the red and black diawa, what is the name of this reel and where can you buy them?


you talking bout this one.....Saltist LD20 Hyper Speed


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## citation (Dec 8, 2010)

Not a saltist though those look good, this is called like a 7ht or something, i have never seen them before, do they have another name?


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## AbuMike (Sep 3, 2007)

citation said:


> Not a saltist though those look good, this is called like a 7ht or something, i have never seen them before, do they have another name?


this one....7HT Mag ST...


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## citation (Dec 8, 2010)

Thats the one, but are they mainley used for tournament casting or do they have a good enough drag to use for cobia fishing?


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## AbuMike (Sep 3, 2007)

Fine for Drum I would not use it for Cobia. They are not built for that. I assume you are looking to sight cast? If so a top line spinner would be my choice.


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## citation (Dec 8, 2010)

Ohhhh, then a saltist is what i want. I would have used the 7ht mag for baitfishing.


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## Ed K (Mar 1, 2007)

Mike looks like you need to stop being a tackle ho King has spoken.


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## AL_N_VB (Apr 3, 2002)

Yall take some Robotussin to cure yall's cabin fever. This thread is done. If the name calling and bashing continues, thats a week in the hole for both of you.


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## AbuMike (Sep 3, 2007)

Ed K said:


> Mike looks like you need to stop being a tackle ho King has spoken.


But, but, but....I'm gonna fill it with braid and cast off all 330m and catch 1 #50 Striped Bass with mullet I get from Niel's better half....


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