# Braid not legal in casting competitions?



## Hanginon (Jan 11, 2008)

"All Sportcast USA rules in effect; monofilament line only with a minimum line diameter of .28mm for the 125gm and .31mm for the 150gm. A monofiliment shockleader of hi-viz .75 mono is also required and will be available."

I have been following (with great interest) the fixed spool vs. rotating spool debates. 

In most sporting endeavors, the rules are usually set to allow fair competition between contestants PLUS to allow the technological "pushing of the envelope". Hopefully, at a later time, this advanced technology "trickles" down to Mr. Joe Average.

The newer spinning reels with shallow, long spools, that are designed for braid, are at a disadvantage with the old paradigms. Why should someone be able to cast farther "fishing" than when they are in "competition"?

A separate casting division for braid?


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## kingfisherman23 (Dec 14, 2003)

I think that, like most sporting organizations, Sportcast is just slower to adjust to changing times.

For instance, the IFGA currently recognizes (with a few exceptions) only post-weighed fish for world record claims, which requires that the fish be killed. There is a proposition in the works to change this to a live-weight measurement, but it is taking a while.

Maybe soon Sportcast will have a separate casting category for braid.

Evan


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## kingfish (Feb 28, 2004)

The variables in tournament casting are many, but everyone uses the same weight and the same diameter line, those are the equalisers. If you were to use .28 braid or .31braid, you would be at a disadvantage to the same diameter mono. If you were to use a mono that equaled the diamater of 10 or 12 pound braid diameter you could outcast the braid.

It's more like golf, it would be easy to make a ball that would fly an additional hundred yards, but it would ruin the game.

As a note about your signature kingfiherman23, have you ever heard the phrase any press is good press. It is foolish to even recognize such an orginazation exists. You are giving them free advertising, I would do away with that nonsense, before some radical billionare idiot found a new cause to back. Of course that is just my opinion.


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## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

I guess the best an most honest answer is that those are the rules. I know that rules can be changed but there has to be a standard diameter to maintain a level playing field..

I've heard of a few exteme events where guys could cast whatever they wanted. Amazingly the distance didn't really go up much.

Tommy


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## Robert Sales (Feb 27, 2008)

*braid*

First of all Hanginon your question is a good one. 
No casting organization that I know of uses braided line.We try to keep Sportcast rules inline with rules used around the world. May sound outdated but it works. 
My concern would be using braid with a conventional reel. Blowups could get very expensive. Casters would not want to cut expensive line off of the spool and we could be waiting a long time for someone to pick out a major blowup. Consider also the fact that you would have a hard time seeing it on the ground. It's difficult enough seeing HI-VIS mono. That could get interesting walking out to our weights. 

I would like to see Mark Edwards or Rod Smith's opinion about this. They could probably make a better comparison since they both cast spinners for fishing and casting. If any Sportcast member want to bring this up we can discuss this during the opening meeting of any tournament.
Bob S


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## outfishin28 (Jul 15, 2005)

They do not allow braid because people like me would be able to catch up with kingfish and Tommy. Kingfish must be greasing some palms somewhere


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## Team Buddhahead (Apr 3, 2007)

Robert Sales said:


> First of all Hanginon your question is a good one.
> No casting organization that I know of uses braided line.We try to keep Sportcast rules inline with rules used around the world. May sound outdated but it works.
> My concern would be using braid with a conventional reel. Blowups could get very expensive. Casters would not want to cut expensive line off of the spool and we could be waiting a long time for someone to pick out a major blowup. Consider also the fact that you would have a hard time seeing it on the ground. It's difficult enough seeing HI-VIS mono. That could get interesting walking out to our weights.
> 
> ...


Bob,
I agree with you on your reasons. Another thing that you need to take into consideration is that if you have both mono and braid on the field, there is a good chance that when your reeling up that you could saw off someone. That could create problems. 
What we may need to do is have two classes for people that want to cast braid . I sure don't want to take my Zziplex on a full pendulum cast and get a blacklash during the cast. Could be very dangerous for the caster(rod breakage).
My .02....
Gary


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## markedwards (Jan 29, 2001)

bob, personally i'b be fine with using braid but there a lot of things you have to consider first safety imagine 10 guys are walking downfield and i come along with my braid and start reeling we all know braid has no stretch so that braid can cut someone like a razor. then there is the small diameter and even if we were to use hi vis its still hard to see and just like mono what happens if or when someone breakes my braid? lets not forget the cost 300yds cost 30 dollars 2 years ago me and the boys were playing aound on the beach and i almost dumped a 300 yd spool casting a 6oz sinker on a pulley rig. then there's the shockleader debate i prefer mono and rod likes braid(and somehow we're still friends...) now which direction do we go with it? breakoffs? don't even get me started you guys have the tournament at i soon to be soccer complex and i used to practice at one and if you think peta is pita wait until you gety a gang of upset soccer moms breathing down your neck! like i said me personlly? i love braid!... for fishing small diameter, lack of stretch, and all the other assets but even then if me and the guy next to me are using braid and we get tangled neither one of us wants to cut there braid so now you have 2 stingy idiots out on the water trying to untangle 60 dollars worth of braid. to me mono still has a place on the field its bad enough we have these uniformed tree huggers crying about us fishing and hurting fish now you want to harm their tofu eating dogs?


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## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

If braid were allowed it would need to be in a "braid only" or "unlimited" event. Otherwise the braid, if allowed, would need to meet the minimum diameter established by SCUSA rules. 

I can only imagine walking and winding out with a mix of braid and mono. Sometimes i have trouble seeing the high vis mono, I expect the very thin braids would be much worse. Lines could be cut and like Mark said the possiblity is there for a caster to get cut as well.

IMHO, stick with the mono and current line diameter rules.

Tommy


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## eric (Oct 24, 2007)

just cause the spinner cant cast as far as a multi on the field..
dont go whine about it. accept the fact. and move on. jeeez. =T

even IF you can use braids. multis will still cast it further on mono.


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## fish bucket (Dec 5, 2002)

why not try an "unlimited class"?

it sure would settle this dispute.


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## smartie (May 6, 2008)

From a suppliers point of view (line)

It's hard enough now to keep up stocks of all the dia's used in tournaments here in the U.K.

Adding braid would not be a problem per sae but might lead to supply difficulties v.v. anywhere near accurate dia's and the measuring thereof.

The expense to the caster would very soon become an unbearable burden for all but the few with very deep pockets.


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## markedwards (Jan 29, 2001)

ooeric said:


> just cause the spinner cant cast as far as a multi on the field..
> dont go whine about it. accept the fact. and move on. jeeez. =T
> 
> even IF you can use braids. multis will still cast it further on mono.


those sound like fightin words. lets go. i'll take that challenge whats the wager? i choose the conditions.


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## fatsearobin (May 21, 2008)

fish bucket said:


> why not try an "unlimited class"?
> 
> it sure would settle this dispute.


Nothing wrong with adding a little spice to the casting mix. This way it's not just a spinners event, it's an everybody event  and if it doesn't work out,hey it's still our fishing or competing gear, so no biggie .
Hey you know what this means.....another BBQ:beer: ..I mean another wonderful and enjoying competion where we all get to meet up again as casting buddies BBQ 
Don't tell me that you BIG... STRONG.. MULTI HERCULES are afraid of us little, itsy bitsy, spinning guys OOOHH my.. did I just open up a can of WHIP A $ $
Hey remember, Big Danny threw a spinner alot further then ALOT of you guys using multi
HOT DIGGGGGYY OMG!! Did I just throw in that plate of WHIP A $ $ along with the can OOHH I'm just serving a full meal here
Anyway all kidding aside, whats wrong with giving it a try. We are already following all the safety rules and playing it safe with everyone and doing a great job at it I must say. CLAP CLAP CLAP!!! 
Do I dare throw in DESSERT,,,ah what the heck I'm already deep in it so here it goes... Now for you guys that cant see the line,,,,,WELLLL,,,,,I can rent a seeing eye dog for the day LOL!!!! 
When you guys see me, just be gently because I brusie easy


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## mantriumph (Sep 12, 2006)

markedwards said:


> those sound like fightin words. lets go. i'll take that challenge whats the wager? i choose the conditions.


100 to 1 on Mark


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## fish bucket (Dec 5, 2002)

i'll take those odds for $20


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## Al Kai (Jan 8, 2007)

mantriumph said:


> 100 to 1 on Mark


Yep. 758.40 feet with 150 grams on mono. 
Imagine if he threw braid on an overloaded spinner with a strong tail wind.


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## fish bucket (Dec 5, 2002)

"Imagine if he threw braid on an overloaded spinner with a strong tail wind."
might have results like this...........

(rustyhook}
My best cast spinning was during a seminar a few years back with a 30mph tail wind in very dry conditions and laid out a 906' cast. The reel was extremely overloaded and was set up just for the seminar but like I said braid opens up a whole new world.

that should shut up some conventional guys!


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## ReelinRod (May 29, 2003)

Braid is used in Japanese casting tournamnets and I think the only way it could be incorporated here would be in an unlimited class where modified spools, super thin lines, smaller dia. shockers on small weights etc. could be used. If you can swing it -CAST IT! But of course the distances could not be evenly compared to the regular classes . . . 



Al Kai said:


> Yep. 758.40 feet with 150 grams on mono.
> Imagine if he threw braid on an overloaded spinner with a strong tail wind.


Adding the 7% that braid has consistently added to *my* competition mono distance, would put Mark out at 811ft with *FISHING EQUIPMENT.*

Nobody has ever argued that spinners will overtake conventionals on the casting court --- but for _fishing_ . . .


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

My opinion- braid is simply not practical for tournaments on grass. Sure with a very limited number of casters you might get away with it. 

We sometimes have 20 or more casters each round. THat's a lot of line layin on the ground at the end of the round. Line gets blown around by crosswinds during the cast, and there is almost always crossed/tangled lines.

When the group goes out to reel up the lines, lines get stepped on and tangled around feet and ankles. If the field isn't exceptionally clean mown, weeds and stalks from the field contribute to line tangles. With braid this would be an absolute night mare. The last thing I want to do is untangle 3 or 4 crossed lines of braid, mono is a big enough pain. 

The only practical solution might be to have a limted number of rounds dedicated for braid tossers, with a limited number of casters per round. Braid casters would have to have their own line restrictions-- and would only be competing against other braid tossers. This unfortunately decreases the number of casters per round and decreases the total number of casts allowed per tourny for each caster.

IF you haven't participated in a crowded tournament- then it might be hard to visualize the nightmare braid would bring to a tourny- I don't have to "try" it to envision the problems that would be encountered.


My .02


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## 9 rock (Nov 30, 2008)

fish bucket said:


> "Imagine if he threw braid on an overloaded spinner with a strong tail wind."
> might have results like this...........
> 
> (rustyhook}
> ...


Top honours when to Mr Danny Moeskops from Belgium with a historical cast of a truly massive 285 meters setting a new world record for the 150g lead and this was 1 of 3 consecutive casts over the magical 300yard mark, congratulations Danny it was a privilege for us to witness this monumental achievement

imagine a 30mph behind him


9rock


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## fish bucket (Dec 5, 2002)

a lot of records are set with the aid of a strong tailwind.

considering the fact that braid spinning is relatively new,give it a few years and see what happens.


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## ReelinRod (May 29, 2003)

9 rock said:


> imagine a 30mph behind him


Don't need to imagine, At their casting venues it is pretty much assured.

On the big UK casting site there is a blown up discussion about the wind and whether some "records" should have an asterisk next to them if not thrown out because of the wind the UK (and Aussie) casters compete in . . .

Edited to add . . . video of Danny's 150 cast. Shall we say a bit breezy?


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## 9 rock (Nov 30, 2008)

Sgt_Slough said:


> Don't need to imagine, At their casting venues it is pretty much assured.
> 
> On the big UK casting site there is a blown up discussion about the wind and whether some "records" should have an asterisk next to them if not thrown out because of the wind the UK (and Aussie) casters compete in . . .


wind yes but 30mph dont think that was the case in this cast that I have seen yes there was wind .30mph I dont think so .. at the end of the day it is all going to come down to power and gravity yes of course braid is going to make a spinner compeat at the top level its like throwing air. 


9rock


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## Led (Feb 1, 2001)

I hate casting in winds that are over 10mph 
Why - It makes setting up your cast a complete nightmare 

Braid / mono - cost is a big factor, at todays event in Dorchester I got through about 1500m of line (£10/$17) how much would that be in Braid (£100/$170) 

FS v M - My Pb using using a FS is 242.93m (265-2-3 or 797'3") and on the M is 245.97m (269-0-00 or 807'0") in the rigth hands there is little between them.

I would strongly suggest that if Braid was used that everyone in that round used it for safety reasons. 
Try it and please post your findings.


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## Robert Sales (Feb 27, 2008)

*906 ft.*

I would like to see anyone that can cast 900 ft with a spinner and their choice of braid or any other line. Please except my invitation to come to any one of our tournaments and show us how it is done. I will pay for your room and your food for the entire weekend. I am not saying you can't do it I am saying I'll pay to see it. Matter of fact same offer for 800 ft. Not an argument just an invitation.

Bob Sales
President SCUSA


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## Robert Sales (Feb 27, 2008)

*braid*

My above offer does not mean you will be allowed to use braid in the tournament.Braid is not legal line for any SCUSA tournament. Anyone wanting to try for the 900ft with a spinner will be allowed to do so at designated times during the weekend. Practice day is Friday and would be the best time. Please don't come out casting 500 - 600 ft and say the wind is wrong and we all know someone will! 
Mark Edwards is the best caster I've seen with a spinner. I hope you can make it Mark. Perhaps you could cast with mono and braid for a comparison. If not the SE then maybe the NE in NJ.Personally I am a conventional caster but I would like to see someone do it.but!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Rules .75mm shock leader braided line and spinning reel
Casters name and distances wiil be posted here on P&S.
Bob S


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## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

Well there you go.


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## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

Guys,

There is no magic rod or reel that is going to make someone a world class caster. If an individual were to cast a spinner loaded with micro-thin braid in excess of 900 or even 800’ what would it prove?? IMHO the only thing it would prove is that thin lightweight line provides less resistance than the thicker mono. Allowing the thinner line would really be unfair to the guys that have worked hard to gain the distance through technique and practice. I guess it is natural to look for a shortcut but the fact is that it CAN BE DONE with a spinner and mono. Just look at Mark, he has competed at the highest level in the USA and did it with a fishing setup and mono. 

On a given day it comes down to caster vs caster in whatever conditions the day brings, working within the rules.

Rusty Hook (Gary Born) is a very accomplished tournament caster who still competes at a high level. I believe that he did cast the braid 900’ in a 30 mph tailwind (I’d love to see it) but you really have to look at numbers posted at a tournament to get a real comparison with other casters.

Danny M is hands down the best in the world. I’ve competed against him twice and he is a level above anyone else on the court. Yea he’s thrown in high winds, but regardless of the wind he’s usually about 10 meters (30+ feet) ahead of the nearest competitor.

Should we have a special “unlimited” casting event?? It would be fun but at the end of the day the numbers would not mean a thing except for bragging rights.

IMHO,

Tommy


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## eric (Oct 24, 2007)

OH Snap >=O ... the fearless leader himself just set the foot down...
and challenged the entire internet... OH boy, this is gonna be fun. 

gotta love side bets.. i love side bets.


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## fish bucket (Dec 5, 2002)

Should we have a special “unlimited” casting event?? It would be fun but at the end of the day the numbers "would not mean a thing except for bragging rights."

"bragging rights"!!

when you get right down to it,isn't all competition basically for bragging rights?


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## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

fish bucket said:


> Should we have a special “unlimited” casting event?? It would be fun but at the end of the day the numbers "would not mean a thing except for bragging rights."
> 
> "bragging rights"!!
> 
> when you get right down to it,isn't all competition basically for bragging rights?



Yep,

When the competetion is conducted within the rules..


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## eric (Oct 24, 2007)

so. i can use .75 attach to 1# mono? kekeke =X


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## Dig-on-me (Nov 23, 2007)

Everything has it's place within this world. The rules set by Sportcast USA and SFCCI are there for a reason. Many of you guys have valid points on this discussion and thank you very much for your opinions on this matter. Many guys have put in alot of hard work with mono. Distance is definitely not achieved overnight or with a majic rod and reel much less braid! Just my opinion but allowing braid in a tourney whether it be in a whole separate category or not, then I want to know when I can load a 375 CFM air compressor with one helluva potato gun and bring it to a tournament!!!

I have gone through alot of mono on the practice field and will continue to do so, I hate to think how much money I would have gone through if it was braid.

Bob, that is one helluva of an offer to anyone and I commend you on it! Tommy is one helluva guy, and I thank you for your comments on this!

Carlos


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## Hanginon (Jan 11, 2008)

Wow, this has all been very interesting.

I knew that "break offs" were (quite logically) not counted as a legitimate cast. What I didn't realize was that "birdsnests" or "blowups" so severe that the line had to be physically cut off the reel (because it couldn't be undone, or to save time on the field) were also counted as a legitimate cast?


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

Hanginon said:


> Wow, this has all been very interesting.
> 
> I knew that "break offs" were (quite logically) not counted as a legitimate cast. What I didn't realize was that "birdsnests" or "blowups" so severe that the line had to be physically cut off the reel (because it couldn't be undone, or to save time on the field) were also counted as a legitimate cast?


IF you blow up the reel- it usually also results in a crack off--- if it doesn't, and the line stays attached to the sinker- it probably didn't go very far at all, so "counting" it as a cast doesn't really mean anything.

This is not the same as a slight overrun at the end of the cast- where the sinker touches down prior to the reel being stopped by the caster. THis happens quite often, and a few coils of line need to be picked out- this can usually be done in a matter of seconds--- most of the time.


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## Hanginon (Jan 11, 2008)

Understand. Thank you.


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## Big Dave (Jan 22, 2001)

People actually believe that .011 (40lb) braid will outcast .011 (10lb) mono 
Interesting!!?? 

I believe that 40 lb braid will outcast 40lb mono. 
But equal line diameters Im not convinced. I will take others at there word, I'm just not going to spend anytime trying to prove it to myself. 

Mr Sales If you need any donations to the challenge give me a ring 

Big Dave


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## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

Big Dave said:


> People actually believe that .011 (40lb) braid will outcast .011 (10lb) mono
> Interesting!!??
> 
> I believe that 40 lb braid will outcast 40lb mono.
> ...



Dave,

The way I understand this whole thread is that some want to be able to cast the thin braid against the legal (.28-.31) mono in competetion. 

I don't believe braid would offer ANY distance advantage if it has to meet the same min. line diameter as mono.

Tommy


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## Hanginon (Jan 11, 2008)

Yes. I started this thread with the assumption the braid and mono would be approximately equal in breaking strength, not diameter. Sorry for not being clearer.


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

Super thin braid (which is not hi-viz) would be very, very tough to see laying in the grass, and tangles would require a magnifying glass ( at least for my old eyes) to be able to manage the tangles that _*WILL*_ occur.


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## Kwesi W. (Apr 14, 2006)

I've never met Mark Edwards but from what I've heard and read he's a man that should be respected in the Distance Casting World... There are alot of new comers putting up GREAT NUMBERS but we all must remember the OG"s (Pioneers) and show them the proper resspect.. If you don't know what Mark Edwards has done with a spinner you better do your research.. My money's on Mark.. LOL


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## markedwards (Jan 29, 2001)

*never heard of him*

lol thanks for the kind words.


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## Homer (Feb 11, 2006)

MOst of the reasons given here against braid, in my opinion, just don't jive: economics, can't see it, you could get cut. I mean, if the contest is who can cast furthest, then it's just that simple.

Even Tommy Farmer, who I don't know but have great respect for--i've watched many of his videos over and over-- claims that the thinner line would give an unfair advantage to those that havent' practiced and worked on technique as hard as the mono casters. Imagine all that practice and technique using braid! That tells me that braid will cast further, and isn't that what the tournaments are about?? I mean, you all use the latest technologies in rods and reels, why not line??


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## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

Homer said:


> MOst of the reasons given here against braid, in my opinion, just don't jive: economics, can't see it, you could get cut. I mean, if the contest is who can cast furthest, then it's just that simple.
> 
> Even Tommy Farmer, who I don't know but have great respect for--i've watched many of his videos over and over-- claims that the thinner line would give an unfair advantage to those that havent' practiced and worked on technique as hard as the mono casters. Imagine all that practice and technique using braid! That tells me that braid will cast further, and isn't that what the tournaments are about?? I mean, you all use the latest technologies in rods and reels, why not line??


Homer,

It really isn't just that simple.

If you follow that (thinner the better) logic then why not take it to the next level and just wrap an untethered shockleader 8-10 wraps around the spool and let her rip?? I've had breakoffs measured at almost 1400'. Should they count??

You have to have rules. Minimum line diameter is just one of many that are there to ensure a fair game and to ensure the safety of the participants. We also need to keep in line with the rest of the world if the USA wants to be taken seriously. If a US caster were to beat Danny M's record, but did it using ultrathin line would it really have any meaning at all?? Not to me and not in the eyes of the international casting community.

I REALLY wish that all the guys that are interested enough to argue the merits of braid in competetion would come out and join us at the tournaments. You would see what goes on and be part of something that truely is fun. As a member you would also have a vote in the way future club business (rules changes) is carried out. 

Tommy


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## Torpedo (Oct 2, 2007)

Just FYI...according to my line calculator an Abu 6500 will hold 1500yds of 10 lb test Spectra!


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

Homer said:


> MOst of the reasons given here against braid, in my opinion, just don't jive: economics, can't see it, you could get cut. I mean, if the contest is who can cast furthest, then it's just that simple.
> 
> Even Tommy Farmer, who I don't know but have great respect for--i've watched many of his videos over and over-- claims that the thinner line would give an unfair advantage to those that havent' practiced and worked on technique as hard as the mono casters. Imagine all that practice and technique using braid! That tells me that braid will cast further, and isn't that what the tournaments are about?? I mean, you all use the latest technologies in rods and reels, why not line??


How many tournaments have you participated in ? I think quite a few folks envision a single guy out there throwing a weight- and that is usually all that is seen on the videos during tournaments. Maybe we need to post what it looks like when 20 + casters have finished a round, and go out to reel up their lines (all at the same tiome). THere is this huge spider web of lines - crisscrossing and laying on top of each other. Nobody casts perfectly straight and crossed lines are the norm. Mono isn't terribly bad, as crossed lines slide against each other without much issue. Still tangles happen and thin line is tough to see.

Braid would be a nightmare.

Tommy makes the best argument, it isn't about the longest cast possible-- it's about the longest cast possible within a set of guidelines that everyone follows. 

So if the change is made to braid and it proves to increase everyone's distance, everyone is going to use it. So everyone's distance increases proportional to whatever increase can be credited to braid versus mono. Big deal- I may gain a couple of yards- so will everyone else.

If all we wanted was longer distances- we could allow thinner mono-- but we don't- mostly to follow the rest of the international casting community, so that a record in one country is recognized as being roughly equivalent to one from somewhere else. That is the only way to size up what a cast really means.


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

Homer said:


> MOst of the reasons given here against braid, in my opinion, just don't jive: economics, can't see it, you could get cut. I mean, if the contest is who can cast furthest, then it's just that simple.


You can't see the economics ? 

Most of us go through several thousand yds of line per casting season. Running a conventional reel on the edge of blow up to maximise distance ensures regular blowups at every tournament. ( and a few during many practice sessions to boot.)


Everyone switch to spinners to avoid blow ups ? 

Ask the true distance guys what they spend on a high tech spinning reel for maximising distance with braid. They run several times the price of a standard conventional.
On top of that we'd have to buy rods set up for spinning or pay to convert current rods over to spinning models. $$$$$$$$


For me part of the fun is fine tuning a conventional reel and dealing with the challenge of keeping it together for an on the edge of blow up cast. Throwing spinning gear just isn't the same.


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## Homer (Feb 11, 2006)

Hey, I'm not knockin' what you guys do, I'm only saying the arguments don't make sense to me. I've been to a couple of "fisherman's" casting events in Marlton, just to see what I could do with my fishing equipment. The reason I went was because braid was allowed; you could see how your fishing equipment worked- isn't fishing how it all started?? There were a lot of inexperienced distance casters there (using braid), but no nightmares! I was very disappointed when it was discontinued. 

Just like you guys are hooked on mono, I'm hooked on braid (i'm sure many others are, too). Perhaps including braid somehow would make the events more attractive to newbies.


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

Homer said:


> Hey, I'm not knockin' what you guys do, I'm only saying the arguments don't make sense to me. I've been to a couple of "fisherman's" casting events in Marlton, just to see what I could do with my fishing equipment. The reason I went was because braid was allowed; you could see how your fishing equipment worked- isn't fishing how it all started?? There were a lot of inexperienced distance casters there (using braid), but no nightmares! I was very disappointed when it was discontinued.
> 
> Just like you guys are hooked on mono, I'm hooked on braid (i'm sure many others are, too). Perhaps including braid somehow would make the events more attractive to newbies.


It's certainly an intersting topic, and I'm sure at some point it may become part of tournaments.

There is no argument that braid doesn't offer some great advantages when it comes to long distance fishing.


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## Homer (Feb 11, 2006)

Surf Cat said:


> You can't see the economics ?
> 
> Ask the true distance guys what they spend on a high tech spinning reel for maximising distance with braid. They run several times the price of a standard conventional.
> On top of that we'd have to buy rods set up for spinning or pay to convert current rods over to spinning models. $$$$$$$$


I know the rods, reels, and costs. Nobody has to switch over; to attract more people to the sport, why not include it somehow, that's all I'm saying.


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

Homer said:


> I know the rods, reels, and costs. Nobody has to switch over; to attract more people to the sport, why not include it somehow, that's all I'm saying.


We held off for a little while on adopting a lighter line class when we allowed the 100gram weight class to be thrown at tournaments. Since everyone wants to be competitive, and enjoy whatever advantages are offered to everyone else, it only makes since that there would be some costs involved any time there is a rule change.

Dropping from a minimum line size of .28 to .25 (mono) for the 100gram put sportcast in line with international rules. But it meant buying an additional line size, (no biggee), and setting up a dedicated reel to toss that particular line.

It also meant (for me anyway) finding another rod that would be better at tossing the lighter weight. It's tough to get a stiff rod to bend if enough weight isn't being thrown. It's rare to see a rod that will throw the 175 gram weight (over 6 oz) just as well as it will 100 gram (about 3 1/2 oz).

So that one event (adding 100 gram division) meant for me a new rod, new line, and dedicated reel. I'm still working on a reel for that division- the weight is so light it just won't carry well when towing line- but that's another issue 

My point is- almost any rule change is going to involve some expense for those that want to participate competitively.
Sure if I am just "curious" to see how braid would perform, I could take a spinning reel and stick it on one of my OM spinning rods. Then the questioon becomes can a fishing rod perform on the same level as a tournament rod ? What if I had used a better high tech spinning reel, and bought a tournament spinning rod to match ? It's not just simply a matter of buying a spool of braid, that's only a small part of the equation.

:fishing:


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## kingfish (Feb 28, 2004)

Homer said:


> I know the rods, reels, and costs. Nobody has to switch over; to attract more people to the sport, why not include it somehow, that's all I'm saying.



The time constraint would make it difficult to incorporate braid into the tournament weekend. It is difficult for eveyone to get 6 to 8 casts in each, each day, as it is. The second and final day is usually cut short because many casters have travel times of 4 to 10 hours. Just to many variables to overcome.

The fishing casting events are fun in their own right, but you will probably have to convert to mono if you want to cast with the best casters under tournament conditions.


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## Hanginon (Jan 11, 2008)

If you'll read my original post at the beginning of this thread, I never declared war on mono, but instead implied a separate division for braid.

The current rules provide for virtually no restrictions on the poles (carbon content, guide material, length, etc.) and the only restriction on the reel is it must have the manufacturer's spool (which has allowed for ceramic bearings, specialized spool rotation control systems, etc.). This is good - you guys are pushing the limits of technology.

So why not allow for a fishing line that is probably more like what is being used to fish with in the real world (by most fisherman using newer spinning gear)?

I fish the east coast of Florida and switched to 20# or 30# braid for the increased sensitivity and bite detection it gives when I've got 375 plus feet of line out. The increased distance was simply a pleasant side benefit.

As Spock would say, "it's not logical".


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## smartie (May 6, 2008)

You speak of logical reason:

Perhaps this would seem logical:
In tournaments it is at present custom and practice to measure the diameter of the lines to ensure no one is trying to circumvent the rules.
It is virtually impossible to fairly measure braid diameter with the equipment employed at tournaments presently. The vast majority of braid line compresses far to easily for std. equipment to be used. This would inevitably lead to ill feeling amongst those finding themselves disqualified and those having to make the decision to so do.


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## Robert Sales (Feb 27, 2008)

I will try to answer a few question with the folliowng post. First of all let me say again that the suggestion of using braided line was done so by someone that thought it might be a good idea and I personally think him for his thoughts.
Everyone member of SCUSA know and respects the fact that our rules are consistant with rules used by such clubs as the UKSF, Wales casting Fed. and many other clubs around the world. The members of SCUSA make changes to keep this idea up to date. Unless the members of SCUSA decide otherwise we will continue to do so. We are not required to but everyone seems to like the idea of keeping our rules on an international level.
Adding a new weight or line does not mean you have to cast either. Our rules are that a caster can cast any weight at anytime during a tournament. A few casters try to cast every weight and thats fine but by no means required.
To change rules because someone that has never cast in one of our tournaments doesn't like them makes little sense to me. Come out and give it a try. What line you are using won't cross your mind. It seem to me that a few and I mean a few are saying change the rule or I refuse to play. Thats a pretty bad approach to start with.
The thought that braided line may increase distance means nothing. What if we allowed Tommy Farmer, Rolland or Big Lou to use .75mm shock leader and say 2 or 4 lbs test mono line. I think you might see a few records created. Neither have ever ask to do so. Why? Because the rules say otherwise and they respect that fact. 

The fishing tournament held in Marlton two years ago was well done. Bill H. Frank and Sgt Slough created special rules for this event and put a lot of time in planning it. It was done to allow fishermen to compete with fellow fishermen and to see how far they were actually casting. There were prizes and different rods and reels to try out. Everyone had a great time but it was something done as a one time thing and not something done regularly by SCUSA. I have not been aproached by anyone requesting we do this again so how much interest is there in such events? Many many people said they were comming to this tournament. Truth is few showed up.
Someone else said "isn't fishing what it's all about". The fact is we do one at a time. Combine the two and you will be picking knots out of your line for most of the day and if someone standing next to me decides to pendulum cast I think I might decide leave. SCUSA was created for distance casting on grass and has little to do with catching fish. Sure it increases your casting distance but a few lessons from Tommy or Ryan White will do the same and be a lot less expensive in the long run.
Right now our rules say mono line only. I believe braided line would definately cause problems at our tournaments. For now braided line will not be allowed in any SCUSA distance casting tournament.
Bob


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## Homer (Feb 11, 2006)

Well, if you guys are happy w/ how things are going, and like the turnouts, then I guess there's no reason for any change on your part. As for me, what is my interest? There are alot of spinners w/ braid out there!

Salud!:beer:


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## Robert Sales (Feb 27, 2008)

Homer
There is always room for change. Braided line just isn't one of them right now.
Bob


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## chilehead2 (Jun 20, 2006)

*No braid?*

The mono only is more than likely due to Stren haveing been the sponcer of the early rebirth of tourny casting in the states. That's the time that thr flouresent gold stren was introduced and at the time, the regs were 12# stren flour main line with 50#gs as shock ldr. This is the time when Ron Ara was the leading man. Both stren and fenwick were the sponcers. any one remember the fenw. Big Surf stick?


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## billr87 (Jan 13, 2008)

chilehead2 said:


> The mono only is more than likely due to Stren haveing been the sponcer of the early rebirth of tourny casting in the states. That's the time that thr flouresent gold stren was introduced and at the time, the regs were 12# stren flour main line with 50#gs as shock ldr. This is the time when Ron Ara was the leading man. Both stren and fenwick were the sponcers. any one remember the fenw. Big Surf stick?


yes, i remember them and still have one. until he had bypass surgery, jimmy volk used one in tournaments. they are not strangers.


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## Vladimir_Kazan (Feb 20, 2009)

Hi dear Sirs, glad to see you again! 

As someone I too think the keyword here The Safety. Next keyword, directly connected to it, is the strength. The restrictions means the demand of some level of safety, it means some level of strength. And to control it, strength, the real/easy way is to control the thickness of line. Because for monos there is a wellknown quite stable dependence between the strength and dia. 
Well, let's try to "insert" a braids in this logic. 
By dias? - it's impossible. Braids at all aren't a "solid" bodies, so they haven't not only just dias, but even thickness it's hard to determine for them. 
Maybe by strength directly? - it's too not so easy task, as is imagined at first look. 
There is a static strength and dynamic strength... Longshorted, if the mono and braid have the same static strength it's at all not means their equal dynamic strength: usually the dynamic strength of mono would be in some times more (difference at all not in some percentage, just in some times). 
So, we need to control just a dynamic strength. I.e., we must shoot an examples with initial speed about 100m/s. Examples here means a (2-3)x(casting weight) connected to tested line of (for example) 5 meters lenght, and with rigidly fixed end of line. 
And I think the equal in sense of the equal level of safety at tournament casting braided line would be not thinner (thicker!) than mono. And at all no advantages in this case. 
PS. Shock leader only helps to provide a needed level of safety, on, let's say, most critical first meters. 5 meters? But the load on 6th+ meter of flight too aren't small, and the main line must have enough dynamic strength. 
PS2. IMHO.


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## Al Kai (Jan 8, 2007)

Welcome to P&S Vladimir.


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## fish bucket (Dec 5, 2002)

it looks like braid is not going to be allowed in "official" competition for the foreseeable future.
braid user will just have to get over it.
i'll just set up my own field and practice with braid till things change.


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## Kwesi W. (Apr 14, 2006)

I dont agree with your reasoning.. When your part of a distance event you choose which weight(s) you want to throw.. I know guys who just throw 125g, and others who throw all of them. So if you have a rod that is best as 150-175g then you have the choice to only throw those weights... So that's not valid..

Also I would'nt compare the cost of the reels either.. Some of you guys are paying 400-600 USD for a tricked out field reel. A BASIS and a Tricket out abu are probably the same price.. So that's another thing that's not valid.. 

I'm not into braid line either, but those reason aren't ones that hold any weight..



Surf Cat said:


> We held off for a little while on adopting a lighter line class when we allowed the 100gram weight class to be thrown at tournaments. Since everyone wants to be competitive, and enjoy whatever advantages are offered to everyone else, it only makes since that there would be some costs involved any time there is a rule change.
> 
> Dropping from a minimum line size of .28 to .25 (mono) for the 100gram put sportcast in line with international rules. But it meant buying an additional line size, (no biggee), and setting up a dedicated reel to toss that particular line.
> 
> ...


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

kmw21230 said:


> I dont agree with your reasoning.. When your part of a distance event you choose which weight(s) you want to throw.. I know guys who just throw 125g, and others who throw all of them. So if you have a rod that is best as 150-175g then you have the choice to only throw those weights... So that's not valid..
> 
> Also I would'nt compare the cost of the reels either.. Some of you guys are paying 400-600 USD for a tricked out field reel. A BASIS and a Tricket out abu are probably the same price.. So that's another thing that's not valid..
> 
> I'm not into braid line either, but those reason aren't ones that hold any weight..


I probably didn't expound upon my logic properly.

No, you are not "required" to throw all of the weights. If, however you are interested in the nuances of making the lighter weight fly, It requires specialized equipment that is more suitable to that particular weight. I didn't mean that I was "forced" to participate in the 100 gram class, but adding the class, just like adding braid, would require equipment suitable to the task.

To say that we should be "forced" to allow whatever category a hand full might want, is not logical. By that I mean it's all fine and good to say " you don't need to participate in that round" but your taking me off the field for that time. Since mixing braid and mono won't fly, mono casters would have to sit out the round. To put it another way, I'm not being forced to throw braid-- but I am being forced off the field-- and I don't come to watch.

It's like saying let's have a couple of rounds dedicated to just throwing the 100 gram weight-- if you don't throw it you have to "sit out" the round. This would be somewhat like Texas- where they dedicate one day to the 125 gram weight and one day to the 150 gram weight. You don't "have to" throw a weight on the designated day--but then your not participating that entire day.

By allowing casters to choose the weight they throw-- during any round- everyone is entitled to participate --every round.

Like wise-- I wouldn't think braid users would be happy sitting out most of the rounds, just to get a couple of casts in for the day.


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

*just to clarify*

I don't mean to come off as some anti-braid type. 

Your more than welcome to fish right next to me with braid all you want.

Rules are rules, and for someone to want to use braid in casting tournaments is no different than if I suggested using thinner mono than is currently allowed.

It kind of boils down to the same thinking behind why certain golf equipment isn't " legal" for tournament play.

It doesn't matter "what " the rules are, so much as that everyone adheres to them. Usng a smaller golf ball, larger than allowed driver etc., is no different than suggesting We should use braid or thinner mono to get more distance.

Braid as a distance "helper" is interesting, but it defeats the purpose (to some extent) of what casting tournaments are about. (why not use thinner mono?)

It might be possible to suggest an "all braid" type of tournament, just to see the results, but here again, any results would be seen as "interesting but unofficial" in the rest of the worlds eyes.

I think the biggest problem would be the number of casters that would show up to an all braid event. Casting events aren't money makers, and if there are not enough participants, it would be cost prohibitive to hold a tournament for half a dozen or so folks. It's one thing to show up and kill an hour or two for a tournament in your neghborhood, most of the time tournaments involve considerable personal expense in terms of time, travel, hotel expense, etc., for many of us.


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## Kwesi W. (Apr 14, 2006)

I dont understand that all the drama is about.. IF you have a spinner and want to throw in a event put mono on your spool. There are guys (in the US) that have records in distance throwing mono.. So why fight the rules, just accept them and get great numbers with your spinning reels..


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

kmw21230 said:


> I dont understand that all the drama is about.. IF you have a spinner and want to throw in a event put mono on your spool. There are guys (in the US) that have records in distance throwing mono.. So why fight the rules, just accept them and get great numbers with your spinning reels..


I understand the reason for the question, if technology offers an advantage, why not utilize it ? I understand why the question is asked, it's natural to seek what ever advantage is out there, whether it's braid or some new space age tehcnical break thru in rod building/performance, that allows a caster to get better distance----- without an increase in effort on the caster's part.


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## Kwesi W. (Apr 14, 2006)

I might be able to understand it from a man like Sarge that competes in the events already. I just do understand why people who have never been a part of an event would have an issue.


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