# Why Place the Reel on the Butt of the Rod?



## lrs (Mar 6, 2008)

I know almost all, if not all, of the best casters place the reel on the butt of the rod. 
I've done it myself and I can cast that way.
But I have never understood WHY this is preferred.
At a recent tournament, one of the casters, who is a master class caster, told me that placing the reel towards the butt moves the fulcrum point farther back, and you get more power from the rod.
If I had his permission I would state his name.
I watched him closely as he made his casts. During the swing his right arm appeared to be pretty relaxed, and his right hand was almost wide open. He came close to spooling the reel. He had about 10 feet of line left on the reel.
To me it's counterintuitive, I just don't understand this.
The way I see it, I don't see how anything but your right hand could be the fulcrum point. So you get your left hand out in front of you, keep your right arm straight and rigid, and pull back with your left arm and the left side of your body as hard as you can.
It should not matter if you place the reel in a normal fishing position, or toward the back end of the rod.
Paradoxically, I know I'm wrong.
I just don't get it.


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## solid7 (Dec 31, 2010)

It doesn't change the fulcrum. The lead hand is what determines the fulcrum of your casting "swing". Reel position changes the balance, and it puts more weight on *opposite side of the fulcrum* by low seating the reel. There are entire debates to be had about the "advantages" of the reel position. Personally I like the low position. I doubt that most people can argue the merits past that statement. Most of what I hear people say about "balancing" their equipment is just dead wrong, anyway.

Casting is such a dynamic activity. There are different phases and different physics employed during those phases, as during the cast, you are switching between the physical loading of the rod, and the point where the rod starts unloading, and therefore doing the work. (it is not just a lever, more along the lines of a spring) Where the loads are placed, and what effect they have at different stages of casting is not straightforward and intuitive. The rod is NOT a simple machine, and cannot be discussed as such.

So I say it's just preference, and what feels good. It takes a different type of coordination to cast low reel. Some get it, some don't. (some like it, some don't) Probably the guy is just a good caster, period. Where he puts his reel may just be his psychological focus, but I seriously doubt it's a make or break proposition. May a better caster than myself tell me that I'm wrong. I love a good physics discussion.


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## BlaineO (Jan 22, 2001)

Hello,

Reel placement by and large is personal preference, and by using reel clamps instead of a reel seat allows even more variability. In changing the reel position, both the balance and fulcrum can be changed, because we can move both the placement of the upper hand (With or without the reel being in the high position), and where the reel is located for improved balance. In the same manner the position of the non-reel hand can be moved as well. Reel clamps allow us to change both the distance between the hands, and how much of the rod is used in the cast by having more or less of the rod butt below the low hand.

As a side note, according to some friends across the pond, the low reel position was initially started by a gentlemen who had lost his right thumb, and was competitive enough so that others gave it a try. 

My best, and Happy Holidays.

Blaine


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## lrs (Mar 6, 2008)

I think you nailed it when you said dynamic.
In trying to understand how a rod works in a cast, I have sometimes wondered if a rod acts like a trebochet, a catapult, or even a sling (like David -vs- Goliath).
Conclusion:
A rod is unique. Perhaps all 3.
I think studying the physics of casting a rod could keep a team of scientists busy for a long time.


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## Hudak (Sep 10, 2007)

lrs said:


> I think you nailed it when you said dynamic.
> In trying to understand how a rod works in a cast, I have sometimes wondered if a rod acts like a trebochet, a catapult, or even a sling (like David -vs- Goliath).
> Conclusion:
> A rod is unique. Perhaps all 3.
> *I think studying the physics of casting a rod could keep a team of scientists busy for a long time.*


Or idiots in a field chasing a small piece of lead for hours upon hours upon days..... *sigh*  LOL


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## RocknReds (Jun 13, 2010)

Why not get Peter Thain to come back to East Coast to do another two day seminar. He's really sharp on all these type of questions.


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## lrs (Mar 6, 2008)

I wish he would come to Texas.


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## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

It really boils down to what feels right to the caster.

Some very good casters throw high reel. 

For me, once I got past the initial awkward feel of low reel my numbers started to increase. The awkward feel quickly disappeared and what I _felt_ was a better balance and a more comfortable cast, especially on the long (14'+) rods.

One of the biggest advantages to me is a better spool grip. For me, the grip is stronger while pulling to the body with the left vs pushing away from the body with the right. I suffered much less spool slipage after switching to low reel.

Another advantage (for me, your results may vary) is that the right hand is freed up for a stronger punch. When trying to control the reel through the inswing, the outswing and then the final blast of the punch, I lose power (and grip) when the reel is mounted high. I know there are guys who view the right as nothing more than a fulcrum, but for me being able to punch hard without gripping a reel helped boost distance... a lot. 

Try both, give each a fair shot and then make your decision based on what works best for you.

Tommy


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## Steve C. Sink (Nov 28, 2012)

*Reel close to butt*

*Mr. Irs you ask a very good question*, and some fine comments in the posts have been made by fishermen that have put much thought into this situation. A friend of mine suggested that I add my two cents to this discussion, so for what it’s worth from an old Drum fisherman who still uses phone poles and big reels, here goes. The dynamics of a rod which is an accumulation of an unknown number of invisible vectors, is very complex, and, I doubt that anyone knows more than a few of them, or even needs to know. 
The main thing is to figure out what works best for you in your fishing.
Casting competitions and actual fishing situations are very different, and it is in the competitions that you see the reel mounted several inches above the butt of the rod.
This is done for several reasons. One reason is that in a full blown pendulum cast, where the casting weight is swinging through an arc of 270 to 360+ degrees, it is almost impossible to keep the spool from prematurely slipping with the thumb of your right hand (if you are a right handed caster), due to the tremendous load on the rod. This is a reason that the reel is lowered to such a position that the spool can be held with your left thumb.
Another reason is that, following the initial cast, the caster can get to quicker, and more easily control the anti-backlash knob that usually is found on the tournament reels.
I believe that a third reason would be that gripping just the rod with your right hand certainly gives a better sense of feel and control.
But I would like to re-emphasize that we are talking about tournament casting.
Pendulum casting, while actually fishing, probably adds nothing to your distance if you are using a heavy pay-load of sinker, hook, bait, and a rig that is whipping back and forth in the cast, and, most importantly, the pendulum is an extremely dangerous cast with other fishermen around you, and most will let you know that very quickly.
Now throwing a light-weight plug of some description, would probably cast farther and not be of so much concern----safety wise.
My son ADRIAN just entered a CSCA tournament in Shallotte, N. C. in OCT., using his stock fishing equipment, and I have included the you tube URL that you might enjoy watching. Sometimes the sound gets a bit ahead of the action. Peter Thain and Tommy Farmer were also in the competition using their tournament gear. You may have to copy and paste the below URL to the top of your computer, if just clicking on it doesn't work.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beKrFIaiAjM

MULE.


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## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

Steve,

It was great meeting your son Adrian at the casting tournament.

I've been around the casting game for a long time now (14+ years) and I've heard a lot of guys make bold statements about casting their fishing gear for big distance. To be honest, most either never show up or when they do show up the measured distance is embarassingly short of the claims made. 

Adrian called me a month or so before the CSCA tournament on Oct. We chatted quite a bit and he told me about the distances he was getting on his fishing gear. The 600' that he was claiming to hit using fishing gear was no small feat and to be honest I was skeptical. As he described the gear I thought _maybe_ but only if he was man enough to load the rod he described and had the technique to make it happen. 

Fast forward to the tournament. Adrian was there, equipment ready. Over the course of the two day event he proved that he was the reel deal. He threw multiple casts over 600' finishing with a best cast in the 630's if memory serves me. With some technique tweaks and practice Adrian could be a serious force in future USA casting events.

Again Steve, it was great to meet your son... 

Tommy


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## Steve C. Sink (Nov 28, 2012)

Tommy said:


> Steve,
> 
> It was great meeting your son Adrian at the casting tournament.
> 
> ...


*MR. FARMER-----Thank you for your kind remarks. *Adrian is looking forward to March. Barring any major obstacle, I plan to be there myself. Would have loved to have been there in October, but had a Hatteras Drum trip planned. Good fishin' to you.

MULE.


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## rocketman (Jun 6, 2008)

lrs said:


> I know almost all, if not all, of the best casters place the reel on the butt of the rod.
> I've done it myself and I can cast that way.
> But I have never understood WHY this is preferred.
> At a recent tournament, one of the casters, who is a master class caster, told me that placing the reel towards the butt moves the fulcrum point farther back, and you get more power from the rod.
> ...



The reason for casting with the reel at the bottom of the butt or even on the reducer is to soften the rod to make it flex more and so have the ability to cast further, most modern tournament or heavy duty heavers cannot be bent to the full potential with the reel up, switch the reel down and the rod is suddenly a lot softer and manageable


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## markedwards (Jan 29, 2001)

I knew a guy who hit 600+ using his fishing gear. I hear he's still around


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## Orest (Jul 28, 2003)

markedwards said:


> I knew a guy who hit 600+ using his fishing gear. I hear he's still around


I got a 6-pack of beer..... you still taking bets?


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## solid7 (Dec 31, 2010)

markedwards said:


> I knew a guy who hit 600+ using his fishing gear. I hear he's still around


I hope he's still around... He's a great conversationalist. (and so very modest)


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## lrs (Mar 6, 2008)

I'm gonna laugh my como se llama off, when some one drives up in a 1973 station wagon, gets out a Shakespeare surf rod, with a penn 209, with a level wind, and hurls an 8 oz sinker 220 yards.
That ain't gonna happen here, but I have witnessed similar occurrences in other areas. One in particular stands out and the man was driving a 1973 ford station wagon.


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## Led (Feb 1, 2001)

Who is to say that having the reel 27-30" up from the bottom was correct in the first place ?


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## solid7 (Dec 31, 2010)

Led said:


> Who is to say that having the reel 27-30" up from the bottom was correct in the first place ?


I agree. That's too short. 31.5" is absolutely just right for a long armed knuckle dragger like me.


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## markedwards (Jan 29, 2001)

Orest said:


> I got a 6-pack of beer..... you still taking bets?


yeah what's the bet? my 8ft vs your surf rod? how ya been?


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## markedwards (Jan 29, 2001)

solid7 said:


> I hope he's still around... He's a great conversationalist. (and so very modest)


thanks for the kind words. I'm pretty sure he's around here somewhere


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## Orest (Jul 28, 2003)

markedwards said:


> yeah what's the bet? my 8ft vs your surf rod? how ya been?


On your knees- too.

How are your boys?


Been busy at work and at home. Moved further west from SPSP and now I have to maintain 3 acres of grass now.

Didn't get to the ocean this fall. Wife and I went on a few 3 - 4 day long sightseeing trips to the mountains in Virginia and southern Virginia.


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## markedwards (Jan 29, 2001)

Orest said:


> On your knees- too.
> 
> How are your boys?
> 
> ...


sounds fair lets do it.

the boys are fine
and now you're even farhter away 
the mountains aren't the same as the beach.


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## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

Leslie,

Back to the original topic...

Here is the best explanation I've seen/heard by a guy I respect as one of the best teachers/casters in the world, Peter Thain.

Link to his blog - 
http://www.peterthain.co.uk/2012/12/high-and-low-reel-how-it-all-works/

Quote from Peter's blog;

"High and Low Reel, How it All Works

I get regular emails, and private messages, with all sorts of questions in them. One of the subjects that crops up quite frequently, is about how a rod feels and performs with the reel set in the high and low positions. The question usually takes one of two formats, so I thought I’d answer them both during this post.

The first question usually goes something like this. ‘Why does a rod feel softer, and easier to cast, with the reel low as opposed to high?’

The answer is quite simple. It’s to do with the position of anchor points on the rod, and how short the distance is between them. These anchor points are the guides and reel. The guide position affects the stiffness of the rod, and how easily you can access the power in the section of blank below it. The reel position, and its placement relative to the first guide, controls how stiff the butt feels.

See this post about positioning the butt guide for an illustration of how ring position changes rod stiffness.

When you place the guides on a blank, the distance between them affects how soft or stiff the rod feels. The further apart they are, the softer the rod becomes. Hence the often huge difference between fixed spool and multiplier distances on the same blank.

To demonstrate this for yourselves pick up a ruler, wooden or plastic, it makes no difference. Now hold the ruler at each end and try bending it. It’s quite easy to bend with your hands so far apart, but what happens if you move your hands toward the centre and try to bend it? Even though it is exactly the same ruler, it now becomes more difficult to bend.

You get the same result with guide placement on a rod. The closer together they are, the less rod there is between them to bend, and so the stiffer the rod becomes.

If we go back to the original question about why a rod feels softer with the reel set low, and apply the same logic, the answer starts to become clearer. 

The section of butt above the reel, and the distance between reel and first guide, is much shorter on a high reel rod. Therefore it’s stiffer, and more difficult to bend. Move the reel down low, and even if you add another guide on the butt of the rod, the distance is usually at least five feet between the reel and guide. That’s something you would struggle to achieve with any high reel set up, except for maybe a fixed spool outfit. So now you have the equivalent of placing your hands further apart on the ruler again. The butt is much easier to bend, and the rod feels much softer.

Now we come to the next question, ‘Why does the same rod cast further low reel?’

I just described how the butt of the rod is easier to bend with the reel set low, and of course accessing the power in the butt means bigger distances. But, there is also another extra bonus to having the reel set low, it allows you to place a guide lower down the blank on the actual butt itself. This guide creates another anchor point, and means you can access the power in the butt of the rod much more easily. Remember, each guide on the rod controls your access to the section of rod below it. If you tried this with a high reel setting, it would choke the line coming off the reel to such an extent you would probably get an overrun almost every cast. Plus, it would make the butt feel ridiculously stiff.

When low reel became popular again in the 1980′s, it wasn’t unheard of for casters to gain an extra 15-20 yards within a couple of weeks of shifting reel position. This was in some part due to the longer 12’6″-13’6″rods necessary to get the best from a low reel setting, and for many, the greater distance was directly attributed to the extra length. What wasn’t really understood at the time, is that it also enabled these casters to gain access to the power in the butt section far more easily than with the high reel 11’6″-11’8″ short rods.

So there you have it, and I hope it clears up what seems to be a puzzle to many casters and fishermen."

Unquote

Tommy


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## roostertail (Jul 7, 2012)

I know very little about this topic but if you watch the vid at the bottom of this http://www.century.gb.com/info.php?Doc=videos the guy talks about the difference between the hi and low position a bit. Kind of interesting if you can understand him.


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## lrs (Mar 6, 2008)

Thanks Tommy, I had no idea a rod behaved in this manner. Makes perfect sense though.


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## castingsfun (May 28, 2010)

On low mount you have the knobby next to your hands. It saves you A second of adjusting to highmount
and herky jerky movement of the rod. That's what I'm seeing. Otherwise it's A preference thing. :beer:


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