# Tip Top



## Hooked Up (Feb 6, 2009)

i understand some people use a size 16 ring for a top.. is there an advantage to this with a tourney rod......or is a smaller one a better choice any thoughts?


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## Hudak (Sep 10, 2007)

I do not know rod building, nor do I care to even speculate as to what differences may be there, all I can say is that it sure is nice to have a tip large enough to pull the clip through the guides and wrap it all on the spool at the end of the day. 

Robert


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## billr87 (Jan 13, 2008)

the tip tops come in many sizes, both the tube and ring. for a tourn. rod a larger ring size is preferred[ my opion] . its as kmw21230 says he likes to bring the clip back. it also gives more space for the knots to go through.


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## billr87 (Jan 13, 2008)

sorry. i meant kingfeeder


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

Hooked Up said:


> i understand some people use a size 16 ring for a top.. is there an advantage to this with a tourney rod......or is a smaller one a better choice any thoughts?


You'll get a few different opinions-- all my tourny rods have size 12 rings, one even has a size 10. The blob knot we use in tournaments really isn't an issue when going thru smaller ring sizes.

The four guides out closest to the tip are size 12 also on my rods. I feel smaller guides are

1.) lighter 

2.) smaller - requiring less thread and epoxy to hold them in place.

Both of these factors make for less weight on the tip-- which helps the rod tip recover faster than if it is weighted down with larger heavier guides and tip tops.

You might be able to get by with one less guide out near the tip with larger guides-- so that would partially offset the weight issue, to a small degree.

As far as being able to reel the safety clip up ? I'm a firm believer in retieing that knot regularly, so I see nothing wrong with cutting it off at the end of each day, or as needed throughout the day.

I can see where size 16 guides can be an asset on a fishing rod, but in my opinion, they are going to hurt the rods performance on the field. Take a close look at most field rods-- the majority will have no larger than size 12 rings at the tip-- I've repaired/built a few rods myself- and although there are certainly going to be a few with bigger guides--- I haven't personally run across one in my shop yet. The Zippies I have ordered from overseas come built with size 12 also, if that means anything.


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## jlentz (Sep 11, 2005)

I agree 100% with Surf Cat. The smaller lighter guide helps with quicker rod recovery. More important in a tournament rod than a fishing rod. I have used rings as small as 10 on surf rods and know of people who will even go as low as a size 8. Like Surf Cat said, you should be retying knots often, at the least before each fishing/casting trip. I think using the larger ring is a lazy way to get out of retying knots and also raises the risk of losing a large fish from old knots. I guess it is a trade off of having a rod that is easier/quicker to fish/cast than having one of maximum performance. If you are pulling your clips through your guides you also risk damaging the rings.

John


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## Hudak (Sep 10, 2007)

jlentz said:


> I think using the larger ring is a lazy way to get out of retying knots and also raises the risk of losing a large fish from old knots. I guess it is a trade off of having a rod that is easier/quicker to fish/cast than having one of maximum performance. If you are pulling your clips through your guides you also risk damaging the rings.
> 
> John


Well, with the SIC guides pulling the clip gently through to help make sure the line doesn't get tangled while loose on the spool is convenient for me. I didn't know that practice was costing me distance on the field. I thought my rod was set up for maximum performance. I should be able to start breaking records if I cut the clip off at the end of the day now? Thanks for setting me straight. Its kind of interesting how people assume convenience at the end of the day automatically suggests neglecting ones equipment during the day. I also spit on my knots right before tightening them down, is that why I need to clean my bearings when they get dirty? Just because a rod tip can have a clip pulled through it doesn't mean it isn't a max performance rod. That comparison is as silly as the spit on the knot cleaning bearings comparison I made.

All joking and sarcasm to the side, I agree generally it isn't good practice as a whole to pull them through, but if you know your equipment and are gentle, there is nothing wrong with it. Making generalized statements about practices or laziness or even performance really isn't fair based on one statement. 

Robert


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## billr87 (Jan 13, 2008)

i believe hooked up was talking about the ring on his tip top not a guide. tip tops do have different size rings.


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

billr87 said:


> i believe hooked up was talking about the ring on his tip top not a guide. tip tops do have different size rings.


That's right- the ring size is determined (measured) the same way for both tops and guides-- if you can't pull a safety clip thru a size 12 top-- you aren't likely to get it thru a size 12 guide either-- but it may depend on the style/type/manufacturer of tip.

I think the standard size clip used by sportcast will squeeze thru a size 12-- but I don't consider it prudent to do this-- for the reasons JLentz mentioned.


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

thekingfeeder said:


> Well, with the SIC guides pulling the clip gently through to help make sure the line doesn't get tangled while loose on the spool is convenient for me. I didn't know that practice was costing me distance on the field. I thought my rod was set up for maximum performance. I should be able to start breaking records if I cut the clip off at the end of the day now? Thanks for setting me straight. Its kind of interesting how people assume convenience at the end of the day automatically suggests neglecting ones equipment during the day. I also spit on my knots right before tightening them down, is that why I need to clean my bearings when they get dirty? Just because a rod tip can have a clip pulled through it doesn't mean it isn't a max performance rod. That comparison is as silly as the spit on the knot cleaning bearings comparison I made.
> 
> All joking and sarcasm to the side, I agree generally it isn't good practice as a whole to pull them through, but if you know your equipment and are gentle, there is nothing wrong with it. Making generalized statements about practices or laziness or even performance really isn't fair based on one statement.
> 
> Robert



Easy there Robert 

I'm retty sure the lazy comments were directed at fishermen--- and I tend to agree they hold true to a large degree. One of the reasons I here for guys wanting size 16 guides is so when the grass is around they can pull the grass on thru the tip and guides and down to the reel to remove it. That just splatters all kinds of **** all over the reel-- at the convienece of the fisherman-- but to the detriment of the equipment. 

BTW-- using sic guides with standard steel frames-- they are heavier than alconite guide with steel frames-- on the only field rod that I have installed sic guides on I made sure to use titanium frames to offset the heavier weight of the sic ring-- too expensive really-- but I managed to get the set for free-- I wouldn't shell out $200+ just for guides otherwise.


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## Hudak (Sep 10, 2007)

Surf Cat said:


> Easy there Robert


I would hope people realize that first paragraph is so obscenely obscure that no one would take it serious. 

Robert


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## SteveZ (Nov 30, 2006)

Surf Cat said:


> That just splatters all kinds of **** all over the reel--


No, it certainly does not! Most of us are smart enuff to clean it off BEFORE it gets on the reel . Actually with a 16 most of the glop hangs up on the tip and you can shake it off. But with a smaller tip you can't get the shock knot through so ya end up with a gob of snot jammed up on the end of a 13' stick and here ya are with 2' arms. Bigger tip works way better for fishin' imo.


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

SteveZ said:


> No, it certainly does not! Most of us are smart enuff to clean it off BEFORE it gets on the reel . Actually with a 16 most of the glop hangs up on the tip and you can shake it off. But with a smaller tip you can't get the shock knot through so ya end up with a gob of snot jammed up on the end of a 13' stick and here ya are with 2' arms. Bigger tip works way better for fishin' imo.


I sometimes think it's funny watching the amount of energy that goes into "shaking" the grass off-- often to no avail-- they wind up having to reach up anyway, and mostly just tired themselves out in the process.


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## jlentz (Sep 11, 2005)

thekingfeeder said:


> Making generalized statements about practices or laziness or even performance really isn't fair based on one statement.
> 
> Robert


Robert,
I do build rods and would like to let you know that most rods will perform better when they are built using the lightest components as possible. This is especially true when it comes to rod recovery which can affect casting distance and accuracy very much. Any rod I build for a customer or myself is maximized for performance by using this theory along with others. This is especially true with rods having a lighter more flexible tip. Of course it is only true to a certain point as the guide must be large enough for the knots to flow through smoothly, so there is a trade off. A size 16 tip as mentioned in the original post, is in my opinion, not the best for casting distance. I can see some advantages in a fishing set up while retrieving line and removing weeds as mentioned in SteveZ's post, but the original post had to do with a tourney rod where the large ring would hinder performance. Also about pulling the clip through the guides as a convenience, it will cause no problems if you are careful and I will do it sometimes when I am in a hurry. I will let you know that I get a fair amount of rod repairs for tips that are damaged because of this practice from people who think they are careful.

John


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## Hudak (Sep 10, 2007)

I agree with John and Mark concerning the physics behind their statements 100%. I never questioned their logic or thought process. I just made an innocent comment from personal experience that seemed to have drifted into something else. My comment was based on my rod that was already built that happened to have a tip large enough to facilitate the passing of a clip. Sorry for the confusion guys, next time I will try to be more specific when I make passing comments so there is no confusion. 

Robert


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## SteveZ (Nov 30, 2006)

Surf Cat said:


> I sometimes think it's funny watching the amount of energy that goes into "shaking" the grass off-- often to no avail-- they wind up having to reach up anyway, and mostly just tired themselves out in the process.


Not my experience at all. When it is grassy any rod with a tip smaller than 16 stays in the truck.

Do ya wanna go fishin'??? Truck is packed & I'm about to head out & won't be back for 3-4 weeks. Unless, of course, the grass shakin' wears me out...


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

SteveZ said:


> Not my experience at all. When it is grassy any rod with a tip smaller than 16 stays in the truck.
> 
> Do ya wanna go fishin'??? Truck is packed & I'm about to head out & won't be back for 3-4 weeks. Unless, of course, the grass shakin' wears me out...


Admittedly-- I do keep a rod around with a size 16 tip-- for those special occasions.


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

thekingfeeder said:


> I agree with John and Mark concerning the physics behind their statements 100%. I never questioned their logic or thought process. I just made an innocent comment from personal experience that seemed to have drifted into something else. My comment was based on my rod that was already built that happened to have a tip large enough to facilitate the passing of a clip. Sorry for the confusion guys, next time I will try to be more specific when I make passing comments so there is no confusion.
> 
> Robert




No confusion Robert, I'm just killing time on a slow Friday, if ya know what I mean.


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## jlentz (Sep 11, 2005)

thekingfeeder said:


> I agree with John and Mark concerning the physics behind their statements 100%. I never questioned their logic or thought process. I just made an innocent comment from personal experience that seemed to have drifted into something else. My comment was based on my rod that was already built that happened to have a tip large enough to facilitate the passing of a clip. Sorry for the confusion guys, next time I will try to be more specific when I make passing comments so there is no confusion.
> 
> Robert


Robert,

Sorry if my comment offended you as that was not my intent and you are correct, my post did seem to generalize about being lazy when not wanting to re-tie knots. I only meant to push the point that it never hurts to retie knots often. I only wanted to give my experiences and reasoning behind the way I do the things I do. I have older rods that have larger tips and I do not see the need to change them right away. When I have to replace them I may go to smaller rings as that is what I prefer now. And by the way, the your sarcasm is appreciated, it keeps things interesting. 

John


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