# Gamefish bill would be economic win for NC



## jeffreyweeks (Feb 5, 2009)

North Carolina can make powerful strides in its fisheries management if a new bill is passed granting much-needed gamefish status to red drum, speckled trout and striped bass. Although these species make up less than 2% of the state’s commercial harvest their value to the recreational fishery, state businesses, and tourism are enormous.

In the last twenty years state after state has protected these particular fish from commercial netting and overharvest. NC, however, has bucked that trend and stood alone while watching our stocks of these vital fish shipped to out of state fish markets, despite their relative unimportance to commercial fishing and their utmost importance to a healthy recreational industry.

*Gamefish bill would be economic win for NC*


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## Drumdum (Jan 6, 2003)

*Not going to happen..*

It's a "pipedream" that I don't agree with anyway... Make sure you read this>>>(JMHO)


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## obxfisherman (Feb 4, 2011)

I hope it fails!


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## Woodduck (Sep 21, 2007)

They'll still be sent out of state. Look at where the fishermen come from to hire an expensive charter boat. I think that people that can't afford to go out on a charter should be able to buy one in a store. Commercial fishermen should have their quota seems like to me. Just don't waste the harvest like they got caught doing this year.


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## twitch (Jan 29, 2008)

Sure you can church it up and disguise it as a supposed economic windfall or what ever serves your anti commercial stance, but when the smoke clears, greed is the motivation. * This is the first time in my life I'm embarrassed by the actions of those who claim to represent the rec. community.*


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## clalmond (Apr 24, 2009)

I'm not sure which is best, but don't like the way these fish are managed now.


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## JAM (Jul 22, 2002)

*If the CCA is Involved I am against it..Even if they were not I'd be against it..*

The more for me less for you mentality... IMHO........The CCA is no better then the Audubon, SELC, DOW... They are out for themselves and no one else... Not gonna happen.. If State DMF's can not do their jobs then they should be disbanded...And People put in charge that can...

JAM


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## Garboman (Jul 22, 2010)

The fellas in the white boots who live on Hatteras would not view this as a positive, since I value their friendship more than the interest groups mentioned I would be most opposed with this wonderful legislation..........not that I have much say in the matter.....


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## Bocefus (Apr 19, 2010)

Several post against this game fish status....I must be missing something. The more info I have and the more info others have the better we can analyze the situation. Jam, I know well and have fished beside at the point for many years as well have talked to when he was at RDT, Drumdum I don't think I have met, but I respect both of your thoughts and input on this issue. Could you please inform myself and others? Thanks in advance.


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## Garboman (Jul 22, 2010)

"I must be missing something"

The part you are missing;

The families that still depend on the NC commercial fishing industry for a livelihood and what remains of that diminshed fishery, in my case the Outer Banks commercial fishing families and their welfare are far more important to me due to the several years I spent fishing on their boats and in my view "Their Island" waters....the rest of us are just Tourists.....


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## Bocefus (Apr 19, 2010)

A agree with that, but from what I have read, the harvest of these fish is only 2% of their total harvest and the bill would compensate for loss of income.


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## Aaron T (May 9, 2000)

My opinion, and you can ban me or cuss me if you want, is that just because someone depends on it doesnt make it right. i am sure there were many families that were hurt by the ban on Asbestos. The fisheries are being depleted, by both over commercial fishing and pollution. Unfortunately this may not be due to the fault of the current commercial fisherman, but the reality is it is still a problem. Its not just a NC problem, it is a worldwide problem. For those who think the current government employees are just not good enough, you have too much faith in your government. It doesnt matter who is working for them at the time, the government is a last resort for people who can not manage themselves. If you are depending on them to straighten this out, we are doomed. When fisherman are caught dumping dead stripers back in the water because they can only keep a few, than you know what the problem is.


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## Mr.P (Sep 1, 2009)

If the bill passes you can still com fish for them, it just has to be hook and line. Striper are the second dumdest fish in the sea. You could get 2-3 tons a day easy with a hook and line.


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## twitch (Jan 29, 2008)

Mr.P said:


> If the bill passes you can still com fish for them, it just has to be hook and line. Striper are the second dumdest fish in the sea. You could get 2-3 tons a day easy with a hook and line.


*Not true*, gamefish status makes it illegal to target these 3 species for commercial purposes in NC. Link to the bill is below.

http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/Sessions/2011/Bills/House/PDF/H353v0.pdf


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## Mr.P (Sep 1, 2009)

I See it. May not be bought, sold, or barterd


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## outerbanker1 (Nov 24, 2003)

i support the bill. telll you what. if you left it up to fishermen, they would catch every fish they could catch. not greed, but hey, look what i did down @ the point. you and i are not satisfied with just catchin one big fish per day, we want a blitz. just like the commerical fisherman, he wants money, the more the better, white man's theory. charter boat captain's are worst than commerical fisherman, they suck up to the public like they are doing the public plenty of good, but they put there two and the mate's two per day in the till, and some days, go out twice. you do that for two months[60x2x2=240]. also they get approx $900 per trip. so you do the math and tell me where i am wrong. by the way, the tackle shop's are getting 3.25 avg per lb for mullet and bunker. not a bad buisness to be in[ anything tied to fishing]


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## Drumdum (Jan 6, 2003)

twitch posted it perfectly in another thread as to what "special interest groups" like cca dow selc can do to fishermen that break apart for their own agendas.. All I can say is go ahead and completly divide coms and recs,not that it ain't to that point now.. Right now getting fishermen together to help causes that affect all of us in the long run is like herding cats.. You don't think this will drive the dagger through the heart of the com,and an insult with the jivetime payment for his loss?? Think again,and look at yourselves in the mirror and tell the truth,you be some greedy sumbeetches.... It will come back to haunt you I promise... AGAIN>>>> JMHO....


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## sunburntspike (Oct 4, 2010)

i don't like it,seems to me that it once again is trying to force a wedge between the recs and comms,i don't mind anyone going out and catching fish LEGALLY for a living.if they succeed at getting gamefish status how far away is "protected" status,and for just 2%??,.something smells fishy and ain't my bait bucket.


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## twitch (Jan 29, 2008)

outerbanker1 said:


> i support the bill. telll you what. if you left it up to fishermen, they would catch every fish they could catch. not greed, but hey, look what i did down @ the point. you and i are not satisfied with just catchin one big fish per day, we want a blitz. just like the commerical fisherman, he wants money, the more the better, white man's theory. charter boat captain's are worst than commerical fisherman, they suck up to the public like they are doing the public plenty of good, but they put there two and the mate's two per day in the till, and some days, go out twice. you do that for two months[60x2x2=240]. also they get approx $900 per trip. so you do the math and tell me where i am wrong. by the way, the tackle shop's are getting 3.25 avg per lb for mullet and bunker. not a bad buisness to be in[ anything tied to fishing]


You do realize that the commercial guys have state wide quotas on drum and rock, and with speckled trout they are limited to 50 lbs as a by catch system. We as recreational fishermen in NC out catch the commercial guys by a large margin on each of the 3 species being discussed. Rock and drum in NC are not being over fished, and no over fishing is occurring. Speckled trout are considered over fished in NC,* however*, it is not due to fishing pressure from either Recs or Comms, it is due to back to back cold stuns over the past two winters.


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## drumchaser (Jan 14, 2003)

Aaron T said:


> My opinion, and you can ban me or cuss me if you want, is that just because someone depends on it doesnt make it right. i am sure there were many families that were hurt by the ban on Asbestos. The fisheries are being depleted, by both over commercial fishing and pollution. Unfortunately this may not be due to the fault of the current commercial fisherman, but the reality is it is still a problem. Its not just a NC problem, it is a worldwide problem. For those who think the current government employees are just not good enough, you have too much faith in your government. It doesnt matter who is working for them at the time, the government is a last resort for people who can not manage themselves. If you are depending on them to straighten this out, we are doomed. When fisherman are caught dumping dead stripers back in the water because they can only keep a few, than you know what the problem is.


You can ban me to, no big loss. Great response Aaron and it's not just because you fish out of a Kayak.

I have in-laws that "made" a living in the tobacco business and that is pretty much all but gone and they managed to make-do however they could. So to use the "heritage" card is also pointless in more ways than one as well. Bring on Gamefish Status, it's the right thing to do future wise!!


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## SurFeesher (May 5, 2010)

I'd just like to see a hook and line reg with a Lb, not # of fish/day limit. I don't want to see the coms hurt and I don't want to see any more special interest groups get their claws into any more fisheries. Heck, the govt just spent three years posing agents as clients on charter boats up at Rudee Inlet to catch charters going out past the 3 mile line to catch stripers, and many a head will roll before it's over I bet. Just my 2 cents worth


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## obxfisherman (Feb 4, 2011)

drumchaser said:


> You can ban me to, no big loss. Great response Aaron and it's not just because you fish out of a Kayak.
> 
> I have in-laws that "made" a living in the tobacco business and that is pretty much all but gone and they managed to make-do however they could. So to use the "heritage" card is also pointless in more ways than one as well. Bring on Gamefish Status, it's the right thing to do future wise!!


Y'all are comparing apples to oranges.Unlike asbestos and tobacco,Rockfish don't cause cancer.

This all for me,hell with you attitude is destroying this country.

It's sad.....


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## Captain Awesome (Jul 27, 2010)

Here is what seems odd to me in this. If these fish are only 2% of the commercial harvest, it is my guess (a reasonable one but still a guess) that rec fisherman catch and keep waayyy more of these species. This bill would do nothing to change that, so what true benefit does it provide? As drumdum said this may "completly divide coms and recs", which is not what will help any fisherman in the long run. Seems to me that so basic updates to some of the regulations both comm and rec would help. I might be wrong on this....JMHO.


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## OBXPC (Dec 17, 2009)

As much as i love to catch drum, trout and rock i just cant support this bill. When forming an opinion on issues like this, its important to consider the source. This bill is not being introduced by fisheries experts, scientists or even the average recreational fisherman. It is being introduced by a group of elitist anglers that want to eliminate comms from their favorite fisheries for selfish reasons. There is no data that supports this bill and as others have said comms are only responsible for a fraction of the landings that recs are for these three species. The funny thing about it is that this is the same reason the supporters of this bill give for eliminating commercial access. It really boils down to a matter of personal opinion. Do you think that recs are more entitled to these fish than comms or do you think the user groups should share them? This is also a very political move where CCANC is taking advantage of some poor management by the MFC to push an agenda that was in place long before the recent striped bass and speckled trout controvercy. Success of this bill could also set legal precedent(sp?) that could come back to bite us in the future. Too much bad juju for me. jmo


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## Garboman (Jul 22, 2010)

"You can ban me to, no big loss. 
I have in-laws that "made" a living in the tobacco business and that is pretty much all but gone and they managed to make-do however they could. So to use the "heritage" card is also pointless in more ways than one"


Interesting that two substances that have contributed to the early deaths of millions are now directly comparable to fishing with nets as an " Outmoded Tradition" to be erased by people from (?) representing the interests of (?) and supported by people from (?) who want no interference during their off hours of recreation.

Hows about just banning yourselves from Hatteras and fish somewhere else?


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## SurFeesher (May 5, 2010)

Recs and Comms need to stick together. We're too small a group combined much less separated.


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## drumchaser (Jan 14, 2003)

What negative impact does gamefish status have on the states that have it in place already? Just curious.


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## Drumdum (Jan 6, 2003)

drumchaser said:


> What negative impact does gamefish status have on the states that have it in place already? Just curious.


*Quote from Dean Phillips of Coastal Fisheries Reform Group*




> Is that what you want here? If H918 does not pass or is killed in committee, then you will see who the commercial fisherman’s worst nightmare is, and it isn’t us! Those little old ladies in tennis shoes with their hurt sea turtles and dead harbor seals make me look like a Sunday school boy! Trust me, if we can’t work this out for the common good of all of us, there is a growing storm out there against gill nets, and that is not what we are about. I believe that H918 would resolve most of the user conflict and take the steam away from this other group.



This is the part of his answers to Iren (the reporter interviewing) that really disturbs me... For some reason he thinks that the rec fisherman (myself included) are insulated from this????

I wish that "Twitch" would throw that post up about what it truely means when you consider your type of fishing or hunting to be more ethical,easier on the resource,and more sportsman like than others and want to see them go down in a ball of flames.. The short of what the post says is that in the long run it can come back and bite you in the arse..

From that,can you see why I would have reservations about trashing the com intrest,and how it can eventually relate to us as well???

PS I know this is straying from your question a bit,but really don't want to go there with the nofishzones,restrictions of flats fishing in the Keys and Fla Bay...


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## JAM (Jul 22, 2002)

OBXPC Hit the Nail on the Head so Hard, that nails Head is knocked into next year.. 
Agreed Garboman.
Ashame, all I want to do is fish, never thought anyone would try and take that away from me..
What a Joke, can anyone give me back my 11 years with the Military? 
Becoming ashamed of that too..

Let them EAT CAKE...

JAM


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## twitch (Jan 29, 2008)

Cannibals and Useful Idiots

The following is real, and it’s here now. 

Joe Hunter goes to a cocktail party; nothing fancy, just a holiday gathering in Anytown, USA. A conversation begins with Bob Peta, it goes something like this:

Bob Peta: Say Joe, didn’t you go deer hunting this year?
Joe Hunter: Sure did Bob.
Bob: Man, that’s great, did you get one?
Joe: Yep, I sure did, a nice six pointer.
Bob: Hey, that’s great. Say listen Joe, you’re a true hunter, a “real” hunter are you not?
Joe: I sure am.
Bob: Say, I hear tell of a kind of hunting where people can go kill animals in fenced areas. You’ve never done that, have you?
Joe: No, no I haven’t.
Bob: Well, I wouldn’t call that real hunting, would you Joe?
Joe: Well, that’s not the way I hunt.
Bob: I know Joe, but there are people who hunt in fenced areas. I don’t think that’s really hunting, do you Joe?
Joe: well, uh, I guess not.
Bob: Great. Say, listen Joe, a group of us concerned “real” hunters are trying to get that method of hunting done away with. We feel it is unethical, will you help us?
Joe: Sure, because that is not the way I hunt, and I’m a real hunter.
Bob: Thanks Joe. Here is what we need you to do. As a real hunter the big boys in Congress and the Senate will listen to you. They know that any “real” hunter only hunts the way you do, and that’s the only real hunting there is. What we need you to do is get out there and get petitions signed, people will sign them because you are a real hunter, and they know that only your way of hunting is the “real” way.

So Joe diligently goes after the goal, to ban, and outlaw any kind of hunting that Bob suggest is not real hunting. He gathers up signatures, petitions courts, and makes meetings. He is really cleaning up this unethical way of hunting, he’s got a lot of support. He is gathering “real” hunters from all over, and finally, after much hard work, they get a legal way of hunting banned.

Bob: Joe, you did great and we sure appreciate your hard work, but let me tell you what I heard. There is another type of hunting that we think is not right. Could you help us again?
Joe: Well I guess so Bob. I don’t hunt like that, so it’s not real hunting anyway. How can I help?

It’s the same old story. It’s odd how Bob Peta keeps adding to the list of what “real” hunting is. However, Joe goes at it hard and heavy, and in the end, he helps get that type of hunting banned. Bob and his friends are happy. Joe is a “real” hunter, and these other guy’s aren’t, because the way they hunt is different from Joe, and Joe does not like that way of hunting. So what’s the harm in getting rid of that type of hunting. Joe is a “real” hunter after all, not like those other guys. He even goes to sportsmen’s organizations and recruits from within. It’s easy because they are all “real” hunters too.

Time passes, and more and more legal ways of hunting are banned. Bob and his friends are real happy with Joe, he’s been a real help. So after all the unethical ways of hunting are gone, Bob and his friends decide that it is time to get Joe’s way of hunting banned, the final chapter.

Joe: Bob, hey buddy, this is Joe. I know I helped you get rid of all those other forms of legal hunting, but now there is a move to get rid of the way I hunt.
Bob: Well Joe, I know. My friends and I are spearheading that movement.
Joe: But Bob, I thought you liked the way I hunt, and it was OK for me to do that type of hunting?
Bob: Well Joe, no, any and all types of hunting are bad, the poor defenseless animals never have a chance, and we dislike, actually we hate hunters.
Joe: But I thought the way I hunted was “real” hunting to you?
Bob: Joe, it was all real hunting, but we at PETA and HSUS hate you. Thanks for all your help, we greatly appreciate it.

You see, what Joe became was a “Cannibal”, a “Useful Idiot” to the anti-hunters at HSUS and PETA . They don’t give a rat’s backside how you hunt, what you hunt, or where you hunt, they just want all hunting done away with. The sad thing is that they use hunters against hunters for their causes. If you do not support any and all forms of legal hunting, or voice any decent about the way someone else legally hunts, you my friend are a “Cannibal”, and a very “Useful Idiot” to the enemy. Think twice the next time you mouth off against another hunter’s methods, they could be coming after you next.

Written by: John Wasmuth


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## Drumdum (Jan 6, 2003)

Thanks,this expresses my viewpoint exactly.....


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## OBXPC (Dec 17, 2009)

Another thing that strikes me as interesting is the difference in attitudes and opinions between residents from SENC and NENC. In southern NC, most recs tend to be very intolerant of commercial fishermen. In northern NC most recs are tolerant if not friendly with commercial fishermen. The rec access issues on the OBX seem to have alot to do with it but even before the consent decree most recs and comms got along pretty good on the OBX.



Its my understanding (correct me if i'm wrong) that many of these "reformers" and "conservationists" from SENC actually worked in conjunction with the Audobon society in the turtle law suit to further their agenda against gill netters. The success of that lawsuit has helped set precedent for fisheries to be shut down due to wildlife interaction in NC and recreational fisheries are now in jeapordy. 

This is merely an observation on my part and i dont want to divide recreational fishermen any further than they already are but i'm curius about what everyone thinks about separation between rec fishermen in SENC/NENC and why values/opinions tend to be so different. 

(PS if my quote from another board is out of bounds i will delete it or respect the will of the moderator if he edits this post)


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## drumchaser (Jan 14, 2003)

That would be me obxpc. I dont have the right to edit the post but i do have the right to ask you to private message me if you have any questions as to where i stand on the gamefish issue. I've quoted subjects from another site before on here and was asked not to, so I don't. Maybe you'll get away with it though since your new.. Welcome to the site. (also I welcome you to bring up your gamefish issues on that site as well,maybe you'll get some better reponses)


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## drumchaser (Jan 14, 2003)

Garboman said:


> "You can ban me to, no big loss.
> I have in-laws that "made" a living in the tobacco business and that is pretty much all but gone and they managed to make-do however they could. So to use the "heritage" card is also pointless in more ways than one"
> 
> 
> ...


Location Jersey? Really Garbo?


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## OBXPC (Dec 17, 2009)

Sorry Drumchaser, i did'nt realize that was frowned upon on this site. Unfortunately the edit feature is no longer available so i cant edit it out so i'll leave that up to the moderator. Thanx for the welcome but as you can see on my post i've been registered on here since 2009. I dont post much but i think this issue is very important so i felt it was nessesary.

It seems clear that you support the gamefish bill so i dont see the need to pm you. Like i said on my earlier post i think this issue boils down to personal opinion and i respect yours and everyone elses. My intent was to find out why the opinions from north to south vary so much and i would like to hear your opinion on that.


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## twitch (Jan 29, 2008)

drumchaser said:


> That would be me obxpc. I dont have the right to edit the post but i do have the right to ask you to private message me if you have any questions as to where i stand on the gamefish issue. I've quoted subjects from another site before on here and was asked not to, so I don't. Maybe you'll get away with it though since your new.. Welcome to the site. (also I welcome you to bring up your gamefish issues on that site as well,maybe you'll get some better reponses)


Why the PM request? We all know where each poster stands on the gamefish issue, as our posts are preserved for posterity on the web. Your apathetic posts are just as welcome on P&S as they are on NCW, so let er rip.


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## drumchaser (Jan 14, 2003)

Ive fished hatteras for the past 30 yrs. Sorry im not aware of the north/south issue. I didnt realize supporting gamefish status would eliminate recs fishing on the point. Now that im educated on that i feel better. Thanks for clearing things up.


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## Drumdum (Jan 6, 2003)

OBXPC said:


> Sorry Drumchaser, i did'nt realize that was frowned upon on this site. Unfortunately the edit feature is no longer available so i cant edit it out so i'll leave that up to the moderator. Thanx for the welcome but as you can see on my post i've been registered on here since 2009. I dont post much but i think this issue is very important so i felt it was nessesary.
> 
> It seems clear that you support the gamefish bill so i dont see the need to pm you. Like i said on my earlier post i think this issue boils down to personal opinion and i respect yours and everyone elses. My intent was to find out why the opinions from north to south vary so much and i would like to hear your opinion on that.


 I see no problem with what you have posted,drumchaser may,if so he can pm me and if you two want to get rid of it I will do so...



drumchaser said:


> Ive fished hatteras for the past 30 yrs. Sorry im not aware of the north/south issue. I didnt realize supporting gamefish status would eliminate recs fishing on the point. Now that im educated on that i feel better. Thanks for clearing things up.


 Garbo lived in Rodanthe for many years back in the 80's and 90's.. He comes across as kinda gruff,but really just a pussycat..  Don't know Twitch,but seems ok.. 

As far as the point,anyone that can take a 30min walk with gear on their back is welcome to do so,for or against.. You are welcome to your opinion as am I,both together might buy a ball of bubblegum out of a candy machine.. As far as having any impact on one another's opinion or changing what is happening with our beaches or fisheries,an opinion is just that an opinion nothing more.....


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## drumchaser (Jan 14, 2003)

Thats the way I look at it. I have fished the hatteras area for the past 30 yrs (sometimes twice a year) and dont plan to quit anytime soon. Congrats on another fine catch by your son DD.


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## OBXPC (Dec 17, 2009)

"Sorry im not aware of the north/south issue"

Alot of people arent aware of it, thats why i brought it up. During the last gamefish bill attempt, CCA and CFRG recieved virtually no support from the OBX anglers club, Dare county residents and business owners. They were very vocal and critical of us on thier blog and showed alot of resentment. I personally requested the support of CFRG for beach access and my attempts were ignored for nearly a year until they finally released a statement supporting beach access but did nothing to try to help the fight. When the turtle law suit got going and it became clear that Audobon was helping fund the suit, many of us were appalled that they would "sleep with the enemy" to get what they wanted. Not only were comms and recs being divided but the rec community was as well. Most of CFRG and the anti comm crowd are from SENC and Raleigh. 

The main thing i am curious about is gear conflict. Its not bad around here in Dare county but i dont know much about SENC and how much negative interaction there is between recs and comms down there. I've heard some people say its really bad down there but some that say netting doesent affect their fishing much at all. Every now and then I'll see a gill net in an area i like to fish but its rare. The way some talk it sounds like a turf war down there.

We have had a problem with gear conflict in the ocean striped bass fishery primarily with the trawlers hauling through fleets of recs and some days where gill nets restrict the ability to fish certain areas. With the limited days netting is allowed, it has not been that bad. The trawl boat waste issue has been huge but i believe we can fix that with proper regulation and punishing the gill netters is pointless.

Is gear conflict in SENC a big problem or is the difference in attitudes because we have felt what its like to have our rights taken away?


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## Garboman (Jul 22, 2010)

Location Jersey? Really Garbo? 


I lived in Rodanthe for seven years, I lived in Nags Head for two years, I have been fishing the OBX for four decades, I only fish for Drum now.

Some years back I spent four years in a commercial boat out of Rodanthe and while I have some compassion for the pursuit of recreational fishing, I respect the Island and its natives more.........more than you will ever know.....


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## snaggled (Mar 20, 2011)

Game fish is about highest and best use, and optimum yeild. It has no biological arguments in my opinion, but it has tremendous biological long term benefits, in my opinion. According to the NCDMF's latest socio-economic studies for the FMP's on the three fish, the trip expenditures alone produce over $137 Million in positive economic impacts to the NC economy. And that does not even include durable goods such as fishing line, fishing reels, fishing rods, lures, hooks, weights, tackle boxes, waders, boats, trailers, trailer parts, etc, etc. If you added that stuff, you are easliy approaching $300 Million bonus bucks to our economy from the recreational pursuit of these fish. 

Speckled Trout only equal .4% of the annual commercial harvest values, Red Drum only .2%, and Stripers about 1%. Any way you slice it, these fish are "fringe" fisheries for commercial fishermen, yet they represent the lion's share of the recreational efforts. Managing them for recreational use only makes perfect sense, and since "game fish" belong to all NC citizens, and are available to all, the argument that they are taken away from anyone is not factual.


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## twitch (Jan 29, 2008)

snaggled said:


> Game fish is about highest and best use, and optimum yeild. It has no biological arguments in my opinion, but it has tremendous biological long term benefits, in my opinion. According to the NCDMF's latest socio-economic studies for the FMP's on the three fish, the trip expenditures alone produce over $137 Million in positive economic impacts to the NC economy. And that does not even include durable goods such as fishing line, fishing reels, fishing rods, lures, hooks, weights, tackle boxes, waders, boats, trailers, trailer parts, etc, etc. If you added that stuff, you are easliy approaching $300 Million bonus bucks to our economy from the recreational pursuit of these fish.
> 
> Speckled Trout only equal .4% of the annual commercial harvest values, Red Drum only .2%, and Stripers about 1%. Any way you slice it, these fish are "fringe" fisheries for commercial fishermen, yet they represent the lion's share of the recreational efforts. Managing them for recreational use only makes perfect sense, and since "game fish" belong to all NC citizens, and are available to all, the argument that they are taken away from anyone is not factual.


Dean Phillips, is there no science behind the push for gamefish status? 
Are any of the state fisheries scientists or researchers pushing for gamefish status? If not, why not?
Are there any stock projections that show gamefish status will do anything for the resource other than eliminating the meager < 1% commercial harvest?

With you being the spokesperson/co founder of the CFRG, why haven't the residents of NE NC had any support from CFRG over the beach access issues? 
OH, thats right....you all were working *with* Audubon and some of the environmental lawyers that formerly worked for SELC on stopping commercial fishing in NC.

Oh yea, welcome to the forum.


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## Drumdum (Jan 6, 2003)

snaggled said:


> Game fish is about highest and best use, and optimum yeild. It has no biological arguments in my opinion, but it has tremendous biological long term benefits, in my opinion. According to the NCDMF's latest socio-economic studies for the FMP's on the three fish, the trip expenditures alone produce over $137 Million in positive economic impacts to the NC economy. And that does not even include durable goods such as fishing line, fishing reels, fishing rods, lures, hooks, weights, tackle boxes, waders, boats, trailers, trailer parts, etc, etc. If you added that stuff, you are easliy approaching $300 Million bonus bucks to our economy from the recreational pursuit of these fish.
> 
> Speckled Trout only equal .4% of the annual commercial harvest values, Red Drum only .2%, and Stripers about 1%. Any way you slice it, these fish are "fringe" fisheries for commercial fishermen, yet they represent the lion's share of the recreational efforts. Managing them for recreational use only makes perfect sense, and since "game fish" belong to all NC citizens, and are available to all, the argument that they are taken away from anyone is not factual.



*Interesting post...*Look closly at the quote below.. Do you not recreationally fish? Do you not see a direct correlation in the quote below that may eventually come back to haunt you in future years?? If not then you can't be helped...




Drumdum said:


> *Quote from Dean Phillips of Coastal Fisheries Reform Group*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## snaggled (Mar 20, 2011)

I always enjoy conversations much better when we are on a first name basis. 

You want science? Since when did science have any influence whatsoever on our fisheries management decisions here in NC? So you are saying that you would be happy to let science rule the day in our fisheries here in NC, and take all the fish house owners off the Marine Fisheries Commission (the quazi-governmental group that makes our fisheries rules) and replace them with professional, science based, fisheries managers? I'm all for that too!

But i suspect that your commercial gill netting buddies wouldn't be so supportive of that idea, do you? See, that is when good ole science is asked to leave the building. Science has nothing to do with extending flounder seasons when the flounder are depleted and overfished. Science would be a wonderful thing to see here in NC, but it is trumped everytime by the need to make a truck payment off of a natural resource!

And yes, we did come out against the beach closure at Cape Hatteras, and sent emails, did interviews, talked with politicians, and we still feel that way. 

But Drumdum, if you want to have a debate, then here I am, and we can cover it all, point by point, but it's your show, and that's up to you.....


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## Ryan Y (Dec 1, 2005)

*Ill agree somewhat.*



OBXPC said:


> Another thing that strikes me as interesting is the difference in attitudes and opinions between residents from SENC and NENC. In southern NC, most recs tend to be very intolerant of commercial fishermen. In northern NC most recs are tolerant if not friendly with commercial fishermen.


Ill agree with that. I live down here and I see that everyday I fish. Commercial fishing as a way of life down here is not as significant. It has also never been a livelyhood for a community like it is on the outer banks. Another thing you dont see a lot of is the commercial fisherman who puts down his nets today to go and fish, recreationally. However, when there is a negatice impact that has occured, it's usally publicised quickly.

I was just telling someone the other night while standing in the sand in Ocracoke that it is amazing to me that issues dealing with the outer banks are never mentioned and often are never heard of in SENC. Closings and other issues dealing with the outerbanks usually dont even get a mention in the media.


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## JAM (Jul 22, 2002)

Ryan Y said:


> Ill agree with that. I live down here and I see that everyday I fish. Commercial fishing as a way of life down here is not as significant. It has also never been a livelyhood for a community like it is on the outer banks. Another thing you dont see a lot of is the commercial fisherman who puts down his nets today to go and fish, recreationally. However, when there is a negatice impact that has occured, it's usally publicised quickly.
> 
> I was just telling someone the other night while standing in the sand in Ocracoke that it is amazing to me that issues dealing with the outer banks are never mentioned and often are never heard of in SENC. Closings and other issues dealing with the outerbanks usually dont even get a mention in the media.


Because its part of a "BIGGER PLAN" all of these issues have the same players from Bridge to Beach to Comm Issues... In the end.. we will all be throughly SCREWED.. until then I gonna have fun reguardless... I have adapted..It don't even hurt when then put it in now.... 

To Dean who ever, I would like Science Baseed Fisheries done by people who can catch fish.. Not Federal and State Boats with too small of net for horse power of boat, who are out-fished by a commercial boat 55 to one right next to them in a fog bank, in the NE...You know the video by the Rhoade Island Watermen...

JAM


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## Drumdum (Jan 6, 2003)

*Mr Dean Phillips I presume???*



snaggled said:


> I always enjoy conversations much better when we are on a first name basis.
> 
> You want science? Since when did science have any influence whatsoever on our fisheries management decisions here in NC? So you are saying that you would be happy to let science rule the day in our fisheries here in NC, and take all the fish house owners off the Marine Fisheries Commission (the quazi-governmental group that makes our fisheries rules) and replace them with professional, science based, fisheries managers? I'm all for that too!
> 
> ...


 Debate?? I read your quotes to Iren,with opinions like that there is no "debate" in the issue,just spin... My name is Ken Wilson,many on here know me personally and wouldn't mind meeting you on a beach or pier as well.. As far as our veiwpoints,debate and banterring on this forum will do us no good our beliefs are like a magnetic being put together n to n or s to s we are going to repell each others veiws.. After reading the way you think in the statement you made and I quoted from Iren's post,there is no way our veiws could be debated on this or anyother forum,because it would all be conjecture and opinion..

In my opinion the statement you made in that quote will come back and bite all of us in the future,and I stand by that as much as you stand by what you said.. You see,I'm not looking at the present in rec fishing and com fishing,but the future..Equating what you said and what I've seen come down here as far as access and regs brought down by special interest groups on us and other fishermen that enjoy and many make a living from our beach.. You may think "apples and oranges",imho it will eventually wind up with the same result.. 

As you see,I am not basing my opinion on a failed management of the fisheries,it needs to be changed.. I think we both agree on that point.. Coms and recs need to be reigned in.. The difference would probably be in the fact that in my veiw both of them,not the elimination of one to benefit the other.. If the com has to hook and line to prevent overfishing,waste,and distruction of the resource so be it.. If the rec has to be limited on how many fish he can catch and release,or keep so be it.. But let the managment make that determination,not the special interest groups that have done it on our beaches through the esa.. If you allow this to happen(and I see an open door here)and *assume* that special interest is going to stay the h*ll out of the issue when one of the user groups is down... Well,you have heard the old addage about the word *assume?* Making an ass out of u and me???

This is where I am coming from,it is jmho based on past events and no one elses,that is why there is no debate with numbers or how they can be spun or disproven..


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## twitch (Jan 29, 2008)

Dean, I've always thought science should be the deciding factor in any decision concerning fisheries management. The friends I have that commercial fish share a similar, if not the same point of view. If it was up to me, all the science cards would be put on the table and the fisheries( recreational and commercial) would structured around hard data.

As for CFRG being pro access here in Eastern NC, that remains to be seen.

IIRC, CFRG didn't publicly say squat about beach access here in NE NC until I stared questioning the link between Carolina Outdoor Journal and Audubon's Walker Golder in a thread on NCW. That thread snowballed and some were wanting to boycott COJ over fishing shows Joe Alba(another CFRG founder) was doing with Golder. I guess the truth is, it is hard to bite the hand that feeds you.


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## snaggled (Mar 20, 2011)

Drumdum said:


> Debate?? I read your quotes to Iren,with opinions like that there is no "debate" in the issue,just spin... My name is Ken Wilson,many on here know me personally and wouldn't mind meeting you on a beach or pier as well.. As far as our veiwpoints,debate and banterring on this forum will do us no good our beliefs are like a magnetic being put together n to n or s to s we are going to repell each others veiws.. After reading the way you think in the statement you made and I quoted from Iren's post,there is no way our veiws could be debated on this or anyother forum,because it would all be conjecture and opinion..
> 
> In my opinion the statement you made in that quote will come back and bite all of us in the future,and I stand by that as much as you stand by what you said.. You see,I'm not looking at the present in rec fishing and com fishing,but the future..Equating what you said and what I've seen come down here as far as access and regs brought down by special interest groups on us and other fishermen that enjoy and many make a living from our beach.. You may think "apples and oranges",imho it will eventually wind up with the same result..
> 
> ...


Ken, agree with you on management making the decisions, that is until the management team in place proves to be nothing more than a "special interest group" themselves. That is what we have with the current MFC, and that is why we got involved. How can you engage the "system" with like minded folks and not be branded "special interest"? Are the commercial fishermen that are engaging the federal issues over the grouper/snapper restrictions a "special interest" group? (and they are engaging the system rightfully so with good cause in my opinion)

So if my opinion that Red Drum and Speckled Trout should be managed as recreational fish only makes me a "special interest" group, then I guess I am one, and always will be.


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## snaggled (Mar 20, 2011)

twitch said:


> Dean, I've always thought science should be the deciding factor in any decision concerning fisheries management. The friends I have that commercial fish share a similar, if not the same point of view. If it was up to me, all the science cards would be put on the table and the fisheries( recreational and commercial) would structured around hard data.
> 
> As for CFRG being pro access here in Eastern NC, that remains to be seen.
> 
> ...


The CFRG has no membership, and no money. We don't even have a checking account. We don't pay for a website, we just use a free blogsite. We do have opinions on certain issues, and evidently, a few folks out there agree with us on them. We initially got together to try to stop the strike netting of Speckled Trout back in our creeks down here during the winter time. We quickly saw that we were getting nowhere with the MFC on that issue, so our goals were shaped into pursuing game fish for SST and Red Drum, and we believe in it whether it comes to pass or not. 

As far as the beach closures go, we were totally behind the curve on that because what little energy we had mustered, was pretty much spent on the gamefish deal in 2009. We are staunchly in the corner of recreational fishing, and obviously the CHNS was purchased for recreation, and that means surf fishing by recreational fishermen. Closing it was egregious in my opinion. As far as Joe Albea goes, let me give you some background there. Joe and I played little league baseball together in Greenville, and started hunting and fishing together early on. We have been lifetime friends. Joe got involved in fighting the OLF in Washington County, and battled that for 7 years. Audubon got involved in that battle because of the waterfowl issue with the jets. Trying to tie Joe to Audubon, and what happend on the CHNS is a stretch. Does Joe know Walker? Sure he does. Does Joe support the closure of the beaches, the answer is no. 

I don't think the CFRG has as much influence on issues as some folks might think. We are just involved with the issues we are passionate about, and Red Drum and Speckled Trout are at the top of that list.


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## Drumdum (Jan 6, 2003)

snaggled said:


> Ken, agree with you on management making the decisions, that is until the management team in place proves to be nothing more than a "special interest group" themselves. That is what we have with the current MFC, and that is why we got involved. How can you engage the "system" with like minded folks and not be branded "special interest"? Are the commercial fishermen that are engaging the federal issues over the grouper/snapper restrictions a "special interest" group? (and they are engaging the system rightfully so with good cause in my opinion)
> 
> So if my opinion that Red Drum and Speckled Trout should be managed as recreational fish only makes me a "special interest" group, then I guess I am one, and always will be.


 Don't think you quite understand where I am going with this,Dean.... I'm not so much pointing at you as special interest,which you are,but pointing at dow selc and others that you and your group *undoubtably will open the door for in the future..* I have watched how these groups preform when taking possession of our beaches here on Hatteras Island... Divide and conquer,and it most definatly worked.. You see,I have a 13yr old that LOVES recreational fishing and want to see him have access to all the fishing possibilities that can be had.. If you and your group indeed open that door and allow those groups into the fray,without a doubt our future as rec fishermen will be in jepardy... If you really want to do some good,work with the coms and the management together,don't look to shut them down as these sly foxes would love for you to let them into the henhouse... I will write and call congressmen to beg that this proposal will not be set into law.. Thanks for your opinion,now maybe you understand mine,again thankyou.. Ken


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## Bullred (Mar 13, 2010)

I support gamefish status for reds, specs, and rocks. If it were left up to the commies they would catch every single one of them. It's all about the mighty dollar. This ain't got jack _hit to do with the point. Ole Basnight has left the hen house. Who goes into a restaurant and orders red drum? Nobody. 90 % of reds get shipped out of state. 95% of stripers get shipped out of state. These 3 gamefish make up less than 2 % of the total take of a commercial fisherman's intake. Red drum is a supposedly "bycatch" fishery. Yea right. 4 to 7 to 10. More if they could get it. Less than 2% of the total take. The commies won't miss these 3. Vote yes to house bil 353.


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## twitch (Jan 29, 2008)

snaggled said:


> The CFRG has no membership, and no money. We don't even have a checking account. We don't pay for a website, we just use a free blogsite. We do have opinions on certain issues, and evidently, a few folks out there agree with us on them. We initially got together to try to stop the strike netting of Speckled Trout back in our creeks down here during the winter time. We quickly saw that we were getting nowhere with the MFC on that issue, so our goals were shaped into pursuing game fish for SST and Red Drum, and we believe in it whether it comes to pass or not.
> 
> As far as the beach closures go, we were totally behind the curve on that because what little energy we had mustered, was pretty much spent on the gamefish deal in 2009. We are staunchly in the corner of recreational fishing, and obviously the CHNS was purchased for recreation, and that means surf fishing by recreational fishermen. Closing it was egregious in my opinion. As far as Joe Albea goes, let me give you some background there. Joe and I played little league baseball together in Greenville, and started hunting and fishing together early on. We have been lifetime friends. Joe got involved in fighting the OLF in Washington County, and battled that for 7 years. Audubon got involved in that battle because of the waterfowl issue with the jets. Trying to tie Joe to Audubon, and what happend on the CHNS is a stretch. Does Joe know Walker? Sure he does. Does Joe support the closure of the beaches, the answer is no.
> 
> I don't think the CFRG has as much influence on issues as some folks might think. We are just involved with the issues we are passionate about, and Red Drum and Speckled Trout are at the top of that list.


I can respect your stance on the gamefish issue, I don't agree with it, but I respect it.
With Joe having a platform that reaches thousands and thousands of people weekly, I find it ironic that COJ didn't even try to get the word out that SELC/Audubon were closing the NE NC beaches. His audience is/was the people most impacted by these closures. The fact that you all were working with Walker and SELC at that time, makes it hard to believe COJ and CFRG were in the dark over our problems here in Dare and Hyde counties. I'm not saying CFRG/COJ were willing participants in the lawsuit, but through inaction, did the fishing public a great disservice. Last time I looked, apathy wasn't a one way street........


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## sand flea (Oct 24, 1999)

I don't think it's just an NC split. The Outer Banks seems to be one of the few places where recreationals speak out on behalf of commercials. Almost everywhere else there's no love lost between the two. I think it's because the Banks is a place where the line between the two is a lot blurrier. Lots of guys down there gillnet part of the year, do charters during part of the year, and get out to enjoy the water on their own when they can. Almost everywhere else, you're either recreational or commercial. On the OBX the line isn't always so clear, so people down there don't see themselves as just being on one side or the other.

That said, I don't buy the whole bit about how closing a commercial net fishery will magically strip recreational rights. Gamefish status has existed for decades, and there isn't a single case where a gamefish designation led to recreationals losing their rights. From the redfish and speckled trout situation in the Gulf Coast to the federal designation of red drum as gamefish by George Bush in 2007, recreationals have *never* lost the right to pursue those fish as a result.

But on the other hand, we ought to think twice about demonizing commercial fisherman. The fact is we recreationals collectively take a lot more of most species of fish than the commercials do. We have to be careful about pointing the finger at them as we wipe a species out with overfishing. You may only take a fish or two, but put a fleet of hundreds of boats out pounding a species every day and we can do some real damage.


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## Bullred (Mar 13, 2010)

Say what sand flea? You're not making any sense here dude.


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## snaggled (Mar 20, 2011)

twitch said:


> I can respect your stance on the gamefish issue, I don't agree with it, but I respect it.
> With Joe having a platform that reaches thousands and thousands of people weekly, I find it ironic that COJ didn't even try to get the word out that SELC/Audubon were closing the NE NC beaches. His audience is/was the people most impacted by these closures. The fact that you all were working with Walker and SELC at that time, makes it hard to believe COJ and CFRG were in the dark over our problems here in Dare and Hyde counties. I'm not saying CFRG/COJ were willing participants in the lawsuit, but through inaction, did the fishing public a great disservice. Last time I looked, apathy wasn't a one way street........


I will have to let this be my last answer for on Joe's behalf. He doesn't post on these boards, and I always think it's a little unfair to challenge a person knowing full well they aren't around to respond. So, Joe's phone # is in the phone book, and i am sure he would be willing to have a rational discussion with you on these issues. But this I can say, Joe has NEVER used COJ as a platform for any issue, not even during the OLF fight. You have to give him credit, that there has never, ever been the hint of a cause in any of his shows. His goal has always been to produce a great outdoors show, and in the last 10 years or so, they have all been fishing shows. So to answer your question, if they were going to build a hog farm in his back yard, you would never hear about it in any shape or form on COJ. And that has been his position, and I think it has been a good one. 

That doesn't mean he can't be involved in issues that he feels strongly about outside of the realm of COJ.

Please email me any concrete ways that you feel we could be more active in the CHNS arena. Like I said, we have no money, but we are passionate about the rights of recreational fishermen. The email address is [email protected]


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## OBXPC (Dec 17, 2009)

Dean,
How about something on the CFRG blog about how the point was closed earlier than ever before due to 1 bird. The area closed has never produced a fledgling and the closure came before recs had a chance to catch the first drum. Something making it clear that closed areas are for all human presence would be good too. Many people dont realize its not just an ORV issue.


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## Drumdum (Jan 6, 2003)

sand flea said:


> I don't think it's just an NC split. The Outer Banks seems to be one of the few places where recreationals speak out on behalf of commercials. Almost everywhere else there's no love lost between the two. I think it's because the Banks is a place where the line between the two is a lot blurrier. Lots of guys down there gillnet part of the year, do charters during part of the year, and get out to enjoy the water on their own when they can. Almost everywhere else, you're either recreational or commercial. On the OBX the line isn't always so clear, so people down there don't see themselves as just being on one side or the other.
> 
> That said, I don't buy the whole bit about how closing a commercial net fishery will magically strip recreational rights. Gamefish status has existed for decades, and there isn't a single case where a gamefish designation led to recreationals losing their rights. From the redfish and speckled trout situation in the Gulf Coast to the federal designation of red drum as gamefish by George Bush in 2007, recreationals have *never* lost the right to pursue those fish as a result.
> 
> But on the other hand, we ought to think twice about demonizing commercial fisherman. The fact is we recreationals collectively take a lot more of most species of fish than the commercials do. We have to be careful about pointing the finger at them as we wipe a species out with overfishing. You may only take a fish or two, but put a fleet of hundreds of boats out pounding a species every day and we can do some real damage.





Bullred said:


> Say what sand flea? You're not making any sense here dude.


 He makes plenty of sense to me,you stand against coms,because they are coms and are greedy in the sense that you want your right as a rec and to h*ll with theirs.. When you are taking more of the total catch..For instance striper: Don't believe it,go to OI one Jan when boats are lined up from the ramp to Bodie Island lighthouse.. They all limit out that day with an avg of 3 or 4 on each boat,2 fish to a person,and they all keep what their limits are,generally without exception (you do the math).. I have no anoimosity toward those recs,it is their right to keep their catch.. Although some of those same fishermen look at coms as the total culprit killing all "their" fish... 

As far as someone going into Basnights restaurant and buying redfish,did it not long ago,good eatting too.. Have eaten specks,drum,and stripers at many restaurants here on OBX.. They serve a special every thursday at Beach Grill,Hatteras style drum. Yes,most of the time catch my own,but when I'm too old and can't, would like to know that one could still be able to order some up..



> I don't buy the whole bit about how closing a commercial net fishery will magically strip recreational rights. Gamefish status has existed for decades, and there isn't a single case where a gamefish designation led to recreationals losing their rights. From the redfish and speckled trout situation in the Gulf Coast to the federal designation of red drum as gamefish by George Bush in 2007, recreationals have *never* lost the right to pursue those fish as a result.


 Comes in "baby steps",Flea.. First they ask for a closure for their birds back in the late sixties,then in 78 ask to keep Pea Island as a national wildlife refuge.. Now look,the whole park is a refuge.. Stop netting in Fla.. Slowly special interest has moved in to close parts of Fla bay to any and all watercraft with motors,locking out all Fla flats guides.. New no fish zones are slowly being put into place.. Trust me,when it's all said and done it may take years,but seperating the rec and com as groups and getting us at one another's throat is an excellent first step in achieving their goal...

Sorry,just don't trust them,because they have too much power,they are very smart,they know how to work the system (lawsuites),and they will stick to an agenda like a turtle biting down on your finger.. That is just the way I feel about them.. It may take 10 or 15yrs,but there is no doubt in my mind you will feel the same.. jmho....


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## twitch (Jan 29, 2008)

Dean, the real fight over Hatteras is gonna start when we are no longer under the Consent Decree. We *will* end up in Federal court again, as the plaintiffs, and with Joe's experience (OLF) you all would be a huge asset. If you all are serious about joining the fight, and this isn't just window dressing, contact the OBPA or any of the other* pro access *organizations and get involved. I'm sure if the two of you brought as much to the table in the fight for Hatteras as you have in the fight for gamefish status or OLF they would welcome you with open arms. 

I realize Joe isn't here to offer a rebuttal and I do respect his dedication and years of hard work toward worthy causes in Eastern NC.


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## snaggled (Mar 20, 2011)

Twitch, send me an email to get a line of communication going. The access issue to this recreation area is a big deal for all fishermen. We can disagree on game fish and still work on this.


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## twitch (Jan 29, 2008)

snaggled said:


> Twitch, send me an email to get a line of communication going. The access issue to this recreation area is a big deal for all fishermen. We can disagree on game fish and still work on this.


Will do.


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## JAM (Jul 22, 2002)

Twitch 

Back when the COJ and Walker Golder issue came out I spent 2 hours on the phone with Joe Alba.. He considers Walker a friend and he stook up for him the whole time I was on the phone with him..He is a fence sitter.. Plain and simple.. His TV show is on UNC, where the same Bios' and Lawyers are.. He said to me and I quote " When and if they ever close the Point I'll be there" That was over a year ago, still not one word from him.. He is not and will not help... Talk about biting the hand that feeds ya, Fishing show that won't even support fishermen.. Last time I watched that show was his Audubon episode... 

Don't hold your breath... He talks a good game and knows lots of the players.. But he is controled by the DarkSide...

JAM


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## snaggled (Mar 20, 2011)

Ken, I think it may be a bit of a stretch to connect "game fish" with the enviro wacko movement. Consider this. The closure at CHNS happened in the absence of game fish. The bottom closures for snapper/grouper happened in the absence of game fish, and we are already dealing with MPA's here, all in the absence of game fish. I don't personally know every individual who supports game fish, but the ones I know are just hard working, outdoor loving, family people who see the importance of these fish as recreational only fish.

Think about this. Texas was the first state to make Red Drum and Speckled Trout game fish 30 years ago! (1981) I would dare wager that their battle with the enviros is no more intense than ours is right now. SC made them game fish in 1986. 

I agree that these battles over access and the rights to fish are on the horizon, and that we all need to be cognizant of their agenda, but I can't see game fish status being any sort of tool to advance their craziness. Of the 8 southern coastal states that have Red Drum and Speckled Trout fisheries, 5 of them have been managing with game fish for long time now.


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## Drumdum (Jan 6, 2003)

snaggled said:


> Ken, I think it may be a bit of a stretch to connect "game fish" with the enviro wacko movement. Consider this. The closure at CHNS happened in the absence of game fish. The bottom closures for snapper/grouper happened in the absence of game fish, and we are already dealing with MPA's here, all in the absence of game fish. I don't personally know every individual who supports game fish, but the ones I know are just hard working, outdoor loving, family people who see the importance of these fish as recreational only fish.
> 
> Think about this. Texas was the first state to make Red Drum and Speckled Trout game fish 30 years ago! (1981) I would dare wager that their battle with the enviros is no more intense than ours is right now. SC made them game fish in 1986.
> 
> I agree that these battles over access and the rights to fish are on the horizon, and that we all need to be cognizant of their agenda, but I can't see game fish status being any sort of tool to advance their craziness. Of the 8 southern coastal states that have Red Drum and Speckled Trout fisheries, 5 of them have been managing with game fish for long time now.


 Movements going on down in the Fla Keys,movements that stop bottomfishing and redsnapper harvest,all but stop harvest of seabass,other movements to make Fla gulf into another refuge that would cut off fishing access to keys guides,no fish zones cropping up everywhere.. We won't even mention what is going on with Cal. and other states out west...All the ones you mentioned are on their radar,these folks want in,and they already have shown what can be done to cut off access just in this area alone.. Just read an article about their wanting to wade into the striper harvesting issue.. 

The gamefish issue will just leave a small crack with which they can enter.. jmo

You see we could argue till we are blue in the face over this one.. You could consider me as paranoid,and a loon for even thinking such a thing or a "conspiracy theorist".. Don't really care what anyone thinks,writing is on the wall,and this new movement to attain gamefish status that will help to divide and conquer the two user groups is just holding the pencil.. Texas and the others you mentioned have stayed insulated so far,except for the snapper and grouper issue.. An issue with science over 10yr old they are basing it on.. That is a "temporary success" story.. They are already on the radar with audubon to close access to beaches on the gulf coast,but that will be in their future.. We have people in public office in usfwl,nooa,doi that have in my view a conflict of interest,former members of special interest that have attained positions in the gov that don't really have the interest of rec or com,more the interest of the agenda they had when in these groups.. That could be considered as opinion,or conjecture.but many have formerly been attached to the very groups that could care less if you,me or anyone else have access to their favorite fishing holes..

This is jmho,if you and these many numbers of "hard working,outdoor loving,family people that see the importance of these fish as recreational only fish" could focus your attention to access issues,and ways to harvest fish without murdering the population,without wiping out the coms,I'd be in lockstep with you... We as fishermen,both com and rec need to unite,not against each other,but against overharvest by both groups that threaten the resource.. You and your groups should be focusing in on a hook n line option for coms,with a reasonable quota for all of these species,castnetting some species instead of some of the other practices they use,this may ellimenate some of the bicatch issue that everyone (including me) is against.. Don't really think taking a user group totally off the water is the answer. The coms should be backed up a bit with some of their methods,some of which destroy the resource,but splitting rec and com isn't the answer,at least for me..

Like was said earlier,we will never agree on this..If you at least understand and see why I have these "looney notions" of a conspiracy theory looming in my child's future and many other children out there that enjoy rec fishing or maybe want to get a captian's license someday,then we can agree to disagree..

OBTW it took audubon,bluewater,selc,dow about 40yrs now to get to the point where they are now with our beaches here on Hatteras Island.. no it is not an overnight deal,but they are and will be persistent in attaining their agenda,trust me it's in our future if we do not unite and quit the infighting.....


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## twitch (Jan 29, 2008)

I was thinking early this AM about what would possibly want to make CRFG want to extend a helping hand over Hatteras...4 years after the fact. The gamefish push probably will not be passed this go round, so what other motivation would they have for needing PR boost..?? Then it dawned on me, the upcoming Sturgeon/ESA deal that you all have cooking that is gonna put a whole bunch of commercial guys *out of business in NE NC*. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but offering to help with Hatteras access issues looks good in the eyes of the public....almost good enough to counter the negative PR that CFRG is gonna face over using the ESA to put the remaining commercial net fishermen in E NC out of business. Dean, I'm gonna have to decline on having any personal involvement with CFRG, but thanks for the selfless gesture. If CFRG wants to help Hatteras and its residents/visitors, contact one of the pro access orgs and lay the cards on the table.


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## snaggled (Mar 20, 2011)

Twitch, do you really think everyone always has a hidden agenda? I was just responding to your critisism of our lack of involvement on the access issue. I came on here to talk about game fish, and ya'll wanted to talk about CHNS, so that is where it went. And, if you think we have any impact on the ESA status of Atlantic Sturgeon, then you are really over-estimating our influence! Most folks in the fisheries game know that the ruling on that will likely have some impacts, but to say we are cooking something up on that is a stretch. But now that you bring it up, gill nets are controversial, and if Sturgeon get listed as "endangered" then it will have an impact on gill nets to some degree here in NC. I do think there is certainly a greater tolerance of gill nets out there on the Outer Banks because your waters are more vast and spread out. More elbow room. In the central and southern coasts, we deal with miles of gill nets strung up and down the rivers and creeks, and there is a lot of user conflict. One of the reasons maybe that the idea of game fish is more popular here than out there. 

No problem on the CFRG deal, I understand completely. I wasn't asking you to join!


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## Drumdum (Jan 6, 2003)

twitch said:


> I was thinking early this AM about what would possibly want to make CRFG want to extend a helping hand over Hatteras...4 years after the fact. The gamefish push probably will not be passed this go round, so what other motivation would they have for needing PR boost..?? Then it dawned on me, the upcoming Sturgeon/ESA deal that you all have cooking that is gonna put a whole bunch of commercial guys *out of business in NE NC*. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but offering to help with Hatteras access issues looks good in the eyes of the public....almost good enough to counter the negative PR that CFRG is gonna face over using the ESA to put the remaining commercial net fishermen in E NC out of business. Dean, I'm gonna have to decline on having any personal involvement with CFRG, but thanks for the selfless gesture. If CFRG wants to help Hatteras and its residents/visitors, contact one of the pro access orgs and lay the cards on the table.


 Interesting post Twitch,with a "conspiracy theory approach"... 



snaggled said:


> Twitch, do you really think everyone always has a hidden agenda? I was just responding to your critisism of our lack of involvement on the access issue. I came on here to talk about game fish, and ya'll wanted to talk about CHNS, so that is where it went. And, if you think we have any impact on the ESA status of Atlantic Sturgeon, then you are really over-estimating our influence! Most folks in the fisheries game know that the ruling on that will likely have some impacts, but to say we are cooking something up on that is a stretch. But now that you bring it up, gill nets are controversial, and if Sturgeon get listed as "endangered" then it will have an impact on gill nets to some degree here in NC. I do think there is certainly a greater tolerance of gill nets out there on the Outer Banks because your waters are more vast and spread out. More elbow room. In the central and southern coasts, we deal with miles of gill nets strung up and down the rivers and creeks, and there is a lot of user conflict. One of the reasons maybe that the idea of game fish is more popular here than out there.
> 
> No problem on the CFRG deal, I understand completely. I wasn't asking you to join!


 You keep saying "THAT IS A STRETCH",a *stretch* when it comes to my statements about dividing user groups and allowing special interest to eventually achieve their agenda,and also a *stretch* with Twitch's post as well...

I hope you are correct on both counts,because if your group gets into bed with dow selc and other special interest involved,they WILL be coming for our fishing rods.. If Twitch's post were correct it would not just give them a crack to crawl through,but an open door... Don't believe they would be gunning for just the normal fisherman that goes out and gets his limit but the c&r guy also... With all due respect,I hope I'm wrong and Twitch is likewise...


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## drumchaser (Jan 14, 2003)

snaggled said:


> Twitch, do you really think everyone always has a hidden agenda? I was just responding to your critisism of our lack of involvement on the access issue. I came on here to talk about game fish, and ya'll wanted to talk about CHNS, so that is where it went. And, if you think we have any impact on the ESA status of Atlantic Sturgeon, then you are really over-estimating our influence! Most folks in the fisheries game know that the ruling on that will likely have some impacts, but to say we are cooking something up on that is a stretch. But now that you bring it up, gill nets are controversial, and if Sturgeon get listed as "endangered" then it will have an impact on gill nets to some degree here in NC. I do think there is certainly a greater tolerance of gill nets out there on the Outer Banks because your waters are more vast and spread out. More elbow room. In the central and southern coasts, we deal with miles of gill nets strung up and down the rivers and creeks, and there is a lot of user conflict. One of the reasons maybe that the idea of game fish is more popular here than out there.
> 
> No problem on the CFRG deal, I understand completely. I wasn't asking you to join!


I would say that answers the north/south debate.


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## jamesvafisher (Jul 4, 2010)

to bad namecallings not allowed.....


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## BaitWaster (Jan 8, 2004)

Hey, Kenny. Having fun with the gamefish thingie? 

Interesting to see how different boards view this issue. Playing around on another board where I'm the contrarian in my opposition to this bill. 

Keep trying to explain on the other board how I didn't like my ox being gored by misinformation that soon became accepted as fact on the beach chit and now seeing the same thing in the selling of gamefish. 

2% of all seafood sales but can make up 15-25% to a couple of hundred folks. Folks and families that can ill afford the hit. 

Drum and stripers have been managed back to restored even with a modest, controlled, limited commercial harvest. 

We didn't even know there was a problem with specks until they crunched the data. Think they ought to be managed like red drum, with predominate rec use not exclusive use. 

Will be down in Frisco mid May for a week. Will stop by and catch up with you, Tater & Jody. Prolly have the whole beach shut down so I'll have some time on my hands when not boat feeshin'.


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## Frightnight (Dec 15, 2010)

Aaron, nice post,, MrP also,,,,, I agree,,, because it's their livelihood, the rest suffer? Well should have thought about that when you were raping the sea. I agree, let the comm guys fish, but rod& reel. work for it. 2% of fish? They were taking thousands. As far as charters,, does not come close to what the trawlers are doing. I was there this past january when all theat mess went on, I did book a charter, and me and my friend had a great time, and caught many fish,,, and, released every single one. Did not keep even one fish. I can do my part, why cant they?


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## Drumdum (Jan 6, 2003)

BaitWaster said:


> Hey, Kenny. Having fun with the gamefish thingie?
> 
> Interesting to see how different boards view this issue. Playing around on another board where I'm the contrarian in my opposition to this bill.
> 
> ...


 I'm sure it's more "down the middle" on this board anyway...

Hard freezes did the speck no favor... Folks just can't seem to tie in the paralels between this and the beaches,kinda glad someone at least understands my posts.. 

Been a while would be nice to seeya,ya ain't gonna recognize da Bug... 

PS Might take Twitch's post about special interest over there,be interesting to watch their take on that...


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## core sounder too (Mar 22, 2011)

Seems that snaggled and the CFRG have lots of hugger friends. from the NC Saltwater Sportman Magazine. Apparently this group gave the turle people 5 thousand dollars to their endeavor. Now they are not really all that concerned about turtles as much as ridding NC of nets. Just the same they are quick to jump into bed with huggers if they think it good for their agenda., 


The Coastal Fisheries Reform Group of North Carolina, a frequent critic of MFC/DMF policies, supported the Beasley Center’s action to halt the killing and injuring of sea turtles by gill nets.

“The Karen Beasley Sea Turtle Rescue and Rehabilitation Center of Topsail Beach has given the National Marine Fisheries Service notice that it will pursue legal remedies in federal court against the N.C. Division of Marine Fisheries and the N.C. Marine Fisheries Commission,” said Dean Phillips, CFRG's director. “The notice is a prerequisite to any formal legal proceedings based upon the Endangered Species Act and pertains to the unlawful take of endangered and threatened sea turtles along the entire N.C. coast.


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## twitch (Jan 29, 2008)

Drumdum said:


> Interesting post Twitch,with a "conspiracy theory approach"...
> 
> Glad I could provide some comic relief  It must be something they put in the water in Dare county....


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## Drumdum (Jan 6, 2003)

twitch said:


> I was thinking early this AM about what would possibly want to make CRFG want to extend a helping hand over Hatteras...4 years after the fact. The gamefish push probably will not be passed this go round, so what other motivation would they have for needing PR boost..?? Then it dawned on me, the upcoming Sturgeon/ESA deal that you all have cooking that is gonna put a whole bunch of commercial guys *out of business in NE NC*. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but offering to help with Hatteras access issues looks good in the eyes of the public....almost good enough to counter the negative PR that CFRG is gonna face over using the ESA to put the remaining commercial net fishermen in E NC out of business. Dean, I'm gonna have to decline on having any personal involvement with CFRG, but thanks for the selfless gesture. If CFRG wants to help Hatteras and its residents/visitors, contact one of the pro access orgs and lay the cards on the table.





core sounder too said:


> Seems that snaggled and the CFRG have lots of hugger friends. from the NC Saltwater Sportman Magazine. Apparently this group gave the turle people 5 thousand dollars to their endeavor. Now they are not really all that concerned about turtles as much as ridding NC of nets. Just the same they are quick to jump into bed with huggers if they think it good for their agenda.,
> 
> 
> The Coastal Fisheries Reform Group of North Carolina, a frequent critic of MFC/DMF policies, supported the Beasley Center’s action to halt the killing and injuring of sea turtles by gill nets.
> ...


 Combine these two post,and this coupled with these other two actions will give dow,selc,and all the rest of the bird and turtle lovers all the amo they could want,ya reckon??? 

Twitch,it was not comic relief.. Felt as though laughing would be better than crying if they really do go to bed with dow and others to get their agenda passed..


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## Garboman (Jul 22, 2010)

Pamlico off the OBX 1991

Back in the day, I caught and released many large Sea Turtles, predominately you would catch them in the Flounder nets, although large Loggerheads would swim abreast of a gill net and snack on the ensnared fish, rendering them unfit for sale. A large Sea turtle could destroy several hundred dollars worth of Spanish in one sitting, swimming along the net...biting on fish and then moving on to the next. 


At that time NC Fisheries was looking into Turtle Impact by the commercial fishing industry on the OBX in the Pamlico Gill/Pound/Long Net and the Ocean Drop net fishery The Turtle research lady went out several times with us in the early 1990's, at the time it was for research, the threat of lawsuits such as the Beasley Center came decades later. We took great pains to release the majority of the turtles alive if possible.......I only remember actually killing two...both Loggerheads, I saw more than a few Green Turtles......The Green Turtles are my favorite....

Specs made up 95% of the catch in the late fall and winter months and was the "Money" fish commanding upwards of $1.00 per pound live weight. So much for only 2% of the total catch in OBX waters. You fished for Trout come December and Trout only....

We caught very few puppy Drum as Puppy Drum were inside of the reef and we mostly set outside of the reef in deeper water. The same length restrictions for Puppy Drum slot limits are in place for Commercial fisherman at this time.

Large Drum had been off limits since the 1980's and no Comm fishes for them, you would need a 8-10 inch marsh net, same as one uses for large Stripers. Stripers at that time rarely came south of Corolla, we got into them a few times but it was rare....very few taken by rod and reel off the beach in the 1990's.

It would seem from these posts that SE Recs have an intense dislike of Comms
they sit a moment if they come up during Drum season and appreciate how that bait cooler at the Tackle Store on Hatteras got filled with fresh Drum bait, hard Fatback and firm Jumpin Mullet and just whom got there.

My Commercial Captain who taught me to fish with nets, My Dear Friend from the old days lost his life in 1998 in the Pamlico off of Rodanthe, went out alone in an April Blow, setting a couple hundred yards for Fatback for the Rec Trade.....I would not do my memory of his life a dishonor for any present day actions that stood in the way of his Family's Tradition, a Family that has been on Hatteras since the late 1700's.....the Island is covered in their graves..........I view it as "Their Island" and all ways will.....

My feeling for my time in boats was that it was a "paid" holiday and I derived the same satisfaction from it as I do catching on rod and reel. It was a day spent fishing, fishing was the end for me, it had nothing to do with the money....I just fished every day.....

The OBX is an Island apart from the mainland, even Nags Head is cut off due to the fence at the Virginia line. and OBX Comms and OBX Recs associate with each other on a daily basis, the area may seem vast, but the towns are quite small especially in the off season. It is a very small town come February...

I can see the lawsuits for a net ban coming if Game fish status for Specs, Drum and Stripers is achieved, same as that innocent Turtle lady who would show up at the dock at Rodanthe twenty years ago and politely ask to join us the next morning when we pulled the nets.....it was only for research purposes.....just to find more about the Turtles......

No conspiracy here just a statement of fact


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## twitch (Jan 29, 2008)

Great post Garboman, I think you are spot on about the next step if the gamefish bill passes. The regulatory discards created by the GF bill would start a self perpetuating cycle of public outcry and more regulation....

I guess we are gonna have to buy some pastel fishing shirts and a fly rod if we want to be under the radar of those who push this agenda.


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## Garboman (Jul 22, 2010)

"I guess we are gonna have to buy some pastel fishing shirts and a fly rod if we want to be under the radar"

I have currently have a 6 weight Loomis and a 9 weight St. Croix and in the process of building a 10 weight, I started fishing Fly Rods at age 10, it had some semblance of an elitist sport at that time, but I started a Herters Fly Rod, not an Orvis .......................

I will admit that my current fishing attire would raise suspicion and will place an order for Tommy Bahama's as soon as funds are available............that and my current Office tan and I am totally environmental......I have no doubt I can get that fly out there and on target with the best of the Recs......


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## twitch (Jan 29, 2008)

Foot, meet mouth  Some of the guys in SE NC that got the gamefish ball rolling are avid flyfishers and my post was a jab in their direction...


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## Bullred (Mar 13, 2010)

twitch said:


> Foot, meet mouth  Some of the guys in SE NC that got the gamefish ball rolling are avid flyfishers and my post was a jab in their direction...


Word on the house floor is that we got enough votes to get this bill passed!. Your boy Marc has left the house.


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## BaitWaster (Jan 8, 2004)

Curious as to why it wasn't simultaneously submitted in the Senate as are a lot of bills that have wide spread support?


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## twitch (Jan 29, 2008)

Bullred said:


> Word on the house floor is that we got enough votes to get this bill passed!. Your boy Marc has left the house.


I think that is great that there is a possibility that we will no longer see the waste from trawlers participating in the striper fishery. However, the gamefish bill with its "all for me, none for you" mentality is something I could live without.... A simple hook and line commercial striper fishery would have done the same in regards to eliminating waste. 

You all think everyone is either in Marks pocket or against all things commercial, but the reality is most people are in the center on these issues. 
That painting with a wide brush technique that is so popular in SE NC among the ardent recs, is alive and well I see.


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## Drumdum (Jan 6, 2003)

Bullred said:


> Word on the house floor is that we got enough votes to get this bill passed!. Your boy Marc has left the house.





BaitWaster said:


> Curious as to why it wasn't simultaneously submitted in the Senate as are a lot of bills that have wide spread support?


 Because it's gonna get "cockblocked" in the senate... Bill won't make it this time.. As has been said,many are in the "center" here,not with one side or the other,and certianly not for shutting out one side totally....


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## snaggled (Mar 20, 2011)

You very well could be right about that! The senate only has 50 people, so those there who oppose this bill only have to find a few allies to help them stop it there. It will be interesting to see how it plays out. Who knows, it might not even make it out of the House. But you are probably right, if it does make it to the senate, it will get "cockblocked" just like you say it will.


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## Bullred (Mar 13, 2010)

Drumdum said:


> Because it's gonna get "cockblocked" in the senate... Bill won't make it this time.. As has been said,many are in the "center" here,not with one side or the other,and certianly not for shutting out one side totally....


If at first you don't succeed, try, try again.


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## twitch (Jan 29, 2008)

Dean, why not put that energy into change that more of the masses are willing to support? 

Like a commercial hook and line season for striper's. I know that doesn't quite meet the 'needs' or intent of CFRG, but at least it wouldn't die on the vine like the other 3 attempted gamefish tries. 

It would seem to me that if CFRG were really all about the resource, the necessary changes to protect the resource would come first and foremost and any animosity toward the commercial sector would be seated at the back of the bus instead of riding shotgun on the trip to Raleigh. 

Yea, you can argue that the GF bill is all about the resource, but if it were, the tactics would be different. It seems that lofty aspirations with a limited chance of success isn't a key ingredient in resource protection pie. The all or nothing tactic seems like it belongs in Vegas and not so much in a plan that's all about protecting the resource.


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## pier_man0909 (Feb 28, 2006)

twitch said:


> Dean, why not put that energy into change that more of the masses are willing to support?
> 
> Like a commercial hook and line season for striper's. I know that doesn't quite meet the 'needs' or intent of CFRG, but at least it wouldn't die on the vine like the other 3 attempted gamefish tries.
> 
> ...


thank you. your dead on


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