# I guess birds are more important than our children



## cocoflea (Aug 1, 2002)

http://www.charlotte.com/sports/story/670213.html


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## saltandsand (Nov 29, 2007)

Audubon and Friends of Wildlife don't care how many people they piss off. It's never been about anything other than domination of the land.


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## NC-Norm-WB (Jul 25, 2008)

I tend do disagree. It is more to conserve the land so there is space for the animals we enjoy catching, have a place to reproduce so we can catch more. Every fish and bird rely on each other some way in the food chain. With out one, the other will be gone as well.


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## Lightload (Nov 30, 2007)

*Food Chain*



NC-Norm-WB said:


> I tend do disagree. It is more to conserve the land so there is space for the animals we enjoy catching, have a place to reproduce so we can catch more. Every fish and bird rely on each other some way in the food chain. With out one, the other will be gone as well.


What, and you think we have to shut down the beaches so the cycle of life can continue? That's a bit far out! I've got bluebirds 30ft off my back deck presently working on their THIRD clutch of eggs. I've got a Phoebe nesting on the ledge above my front door, I've got Robins in a Cedar tree at one corner of my house and Purple Finches at another corner. 

AND EVERYONE IS GETTING ALONG JUST FINE!

And Oyster Catchers, Black Skimmers, Terns and Piping Plovers need *1.25 MILES!* I don't think so. 

It is very clear to me that Audubon, Defenders of Wildlife and the SELC are very much against human access to the beaches. (Except for their own access, of course!)

No, the cycle of life will get along just fine without the extensive beach closings we've seen this year. The proof of that statement is in the increased production of birds we saw this year with the beaches being closed. Yeah, that's right, what increase? 

ORV's on the beach have very little impact on a beach environment. Do they have an impact.....sure they do! They have about as much impact on the beach as you're having right now sitting in front of your computer. You're taking up space that could be used by flies, ants, spiders, airborne bacteria, etc. You're using up oxygen and expelling carbon dioxide. The home you're sitting in is taking up valuable space that could be used by many different wildlife species for nesting, resting or escape cover. 

Bottom line is that the human species has an impact on the earth. That being said, we also have a responsibility to protect the environment. But never forget that we are part of the system, too. We are a part of the circle of life just like the turtles, the Oyster Catchers and the Robins in my back yard. 

Let's face it, we are here and the human species does have an impact on the earth. But unlike others, I for one refuse to apologize for my existence!


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## huckfinn38 (Jun 13, 2006)

*NC Worm*

Do a little research before you make stupid response. 
A good place to start is here, reddrumtackle.com, and fishmilitia.com.
Get educated before you respond.


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## Hannibal (Aug 10, 2007)

Jebson38 said:


> Do a little research before you make stupid response.
> A good place to start is here, reddrumtackle.com, and fishmilitia.com.
> Get educated before you respond.



Don't be so harsh - he's either a brainwashed Enviro-whacko who believes the DOW/AS's propaganda they feed him or he just isn't up to speed on some of the tactics they've employed. Let's give him the benefit of the doubt and give him the chance to research some information about what REALLY is going on down on the OBX.


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## jay b (Dec 1, 2002)

Start your research with the old testament, man was put on earth to enjoy the fish and birds.................as dinner


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## Fireline20 (Oct 2, 2007)

Ditto to the above,,,and to prove we can co-exist with Oyster Catchers, Sea Turtles, etc and drive ORV on the beach, let em check out Ft Fisher south of Wilmington. 

I was there this past weekend and saw several Oyster Catchers and at least a dozen turtle nests with wire cages around them and no one was bothering them. 

As a matter of fact, I am looking forward to Sept when the Monarch Butterfly migration begins. They always visit Ft Fisher and it is amazing to see these delicate creatures fly in from the ocean make a stop over on their way to S. America.


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## NC-Norm-WB (Jul 25, 2008)

HAHA,
You guys are a riot. I will say up front that I dont know all that is going in in the obx and have been researching. But what I said before, many of the the people trying to preserve some of the land are fisherman as well.I personally know many outdoorsman trying to save land so we can all enjoy the bounty. I know this is a very touchy subject and may be getting no where with some. I was just stating my opinion as well and not trying to start a name-calling war. As far as the comment with the backyard birds, that was just silly. As an avid fisherman you know that certain species of fish need different habitats. Comparing a coastal animal to an inland animal isn't justifiable.
Like I said before, I am not trying to pick fights. Just a different point of view I guess. I'm sure I will hear more.


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## jay b (Dec 1, 2002)

With an opinion like that, posted on a FISHING board, yes you will hear a LOT more, hope you're ready..................opcorn:


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## jay b (Dec 1, 2002)

Ease up there Norm, we 'heard' you the first time.......................


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## NC-Norm-WB (Jul 25, 2008)

jay b said:


> With an opinion like that, posted on a FISHING board, yes you will hear a LOT more, hope you're ready..................opcorn:




How much was the popcorn? I think around here I may need two!!! And maybe a couple of........:beer:


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## oldschool (Apr 8, 2008)

*Hey Norm*

I see you're a newbie here, welcome to the board. 

The popcorn is free, ya gotta' bring your own beer though. 

Got a question for ya, if all DOW and Audubon want is to protect the birds, why won't they work with us? Why do they have to tell lies and depict us as a bunch of crazy ******** driving BigFoot through the dunes while swilling whiskey and trying to decide if we should run over a bird nest of those cute little tourist children down by the water? Do some research and get back to us when ya got the answer. 

We'll still be here opcorn: and :beer:.


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## sudshunter (Jan 20, 2008)

welcome aboard. I have to agree with the majority here, need to look at all the facts before forming an opinion. I for one believe that the beaches should be left as GOD intended them we have coexisted with the birds,turtles,ect... for hundreds of years why should they change it now!!!!


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## PEEWEE (Jan 6, 2008)

sudshunter said:


> welcome aboard. I have to agree with the majority here, need to look at all the facts before forming an opinion. I for one believe that the beaches should be left as GOD intended them we have coexisted with the birds,turtles,ect... for hundreds of years why should they change it now!!!!


Well said.. There are just some people who like to start B.S. and just need to be ignored..And Nc-norm-wb there is no need to get everyone heated over such a sore subject with your double posting negativity.. Maybe this is not the board for you.. Just my 2centz..


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## sand flea (Oct 24, 1999)

Welcome aboard, NC-Norm-WB. You have to understand that tempers run a little high around this issue.

Believe it or not, we're not a bunch of bird-stomping dimwits. Some of us, myself included, think that endangered or threatened species have a right to use the beaches for nesting as they have for thousands of years. But I _also_ believe that can be achieved with smart management strategies that don't ban humans from using the same territory.

On many beaches, fishermen are actually treated as partners by wildlife agencies. They keep an eye out for flipper tracks and immediately report turtle nests to the authorities for safe relocation. What the DNR gets back is an army of people looking out for endangered species, which get every opportunity to go on to replenish their kind. Ditto for the birds. I've dealt with sensible, limited closures up in my neck of the woods for years.

But the situation as it exists now has gone too far, and it's caused both sides to radicalize. I'm afraid that there's no nuance left in this debate. You're either a bunny-hugging ecoterrorist or a dimwitted hillbilly who thinks we should pave the planet.

If you try to take a middle road that preserves access and animals, both sides hate you.


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## Fireline20 (Oct 2, 2007)

sand flea said:


> Welcome aboard, NC-Norm-WB. You have to understand that tempers run a little high around this issue.
> 
> Believe it or not, we're not a bunch of bird-stomping dimwits. Some of us, myself included, think that endangered or threatened species have a right to use the beaches for nesting as they have for thousands of years. But I _also_ believe that can be achieved with smart management strategies that don't ban humans from using the same territory.
> 
> ...


My point exactly when I talk about Ft Fisher. It is a well managed and well conceived plan that everyone abides by.

No night fishing during the spring and summer. 

We pay a $40 yearly fee to drive on the beach.

There are Oyster Catchers and turtles. It is patrolled by both the NC State Park Ranges as well as the NC Marine Rangers.

It can work but it takes both sides to work together.


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## Lightload (Nov 30, 2007)

NC-Norm-WB said:


> HAHA,
> . As far as the comment with the backyard birds, that was just silly. As an avid fisherman you know that certain species of fish need different habitats. Comparing a coastal animal to an inland animal isn't justifiable.
> .



You think birds in my back yard are silly? I think not! What is silly is a 1,000 meter, (that's right, three zeros), radius buffer around shorebirds! That's RADIUS my friend! Do the math and that comes out to just over a mile and a quarter for a bird. Now THAT'S silly!


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## sand flea (Oct 24, 1999)

Fireline20, I like most of that plan except for the blanket ban on night fishing, which I assume is in place for the turtles.

There's a way to manage a beach without tossing everybody off of it. Keep everyone driving high on the beach (away from where the loggerheads come in) and keep a 5 or 10 MPH speed limit after dark during the SHORT turtle nesting season (June/July) and both humans and turtles are fine. Lots of places do it successfully.


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## sand flea (Oct 24, 1999)

Lightload said:


> You think birds in my back yard are silly? I think not! What is silly is a 1,000 meter, (that's right, three zeros), radius buffer around shorebirds! That's RADIUS my friend! Do the math and that comes out to just over a mile and a quarter for a bird. Now THAT'S silly!


So I started doing some googling on scientific studies of the habits of plovers after they hatch. Turns out they wander like crazy. Damn. They *do* need a lot of habitat.

But on Audubon's own site, there's a solution that could work for everyone: _In a fenced-in colony, the young will wander about, but are restricted to the colony until they are able to fly over the fence. Low, fine meshed “chick fencing” keeps the chicks and pre-fledglings from wandering out where they could easily be stepped on or predated. These fences provide some protection from terrestrial predators and humans, but not from avian predators._

Just like with the turtles, there's a way to make this work for the animals and the people. But check out the guidelines the FWS has to deal with.


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## oldschool (Apr 8, 2008)

sand flea said:


> So I started doing some googling on scientific studies of the habits of plovers after they hatch. Turns out they wander like crazy. Damn. They *do* need a lot of habitat.
> 
> But on Audubon's own site, there's a solution that could work for everyone: _In a fenced-in colony, the young will wander about, but are restricted to the colony until they are able to fly over the fence. Low, fine meshed “chick fencing” keeps the chicks and pre-fledglings from wandering out where they could easily be stepped on or predated. These fences provide some protection from terrestrial predators and humans, but not from avian predators._
> 
> Just like with the turtles, there's a way to make this work for the animals and the people. But check out the guidelines the FWS has to deal with.


Great post SandFlea, those FWS guidelines sound like what the Park Service is going to need to put in place in order to get this mess back under control. They'll need manpower to manage that kind of monitoring and I think we will be seeing access fees to help cover the costs. 

Paying to fish is better than not fishing, I guess.


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## NC-Norm-WB (Jul 25, 2008)

Geez,
No need to get the feathers all ruffled over the the double post, it was an accident.
What a way to introduce myself!:--|
I also think their is a way to co-exist as some had said so everyone wins. My original post was more aimed at people not caring and I see that there are open minds and some not so open.........:redface:

Look, I came to this site with good intentions seeing that there is a bunch of fishing knowledge with good questions and answers. This is the reason I am here. I am here to be civil and not to pick fights with people I don't even know.
Sand flea,
Thanks for the welcome. You seem well informed.
Btw, I landed six blues this evening. Good times.


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## RuddeDogg (Mar 20, 2004)

Hey Norm, welcome to the family.


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## Capt Kurt (Jan 5, 2008)

You're either a bunny-hugging ecoterrorist or a dimwitted hillbilly who thinks we should pave the planet.
QUOTE said:


> It *would* be a lot easier to ride my ORV if the beach were paved....i mean even just a couple of miles would help....


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## Fireline20 (Oct 2, 2007)

NC-Norm-WB said:


> Geez,
> No need to get the feathers all ruffled over the the double post, it was an accident.
> What a way to introduce myself!:--|
> I also think their is a way to co-exist as some had said so everyone wins. My original post was more aimed at people not caring and I see that there are open minds and some not so open.........:redface:
> ...


Welcome and tight lines.:fishing:

PSsst (Sand Flea is the owner of Pier and Surf)


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## for access (Jul 18, 2005)

*Welcome Norm*

You have to understand, this is a touchy subject. All businesses are feeling the squeese, especially those located near the inlets and the point. Probably the hardest hit are Buxton businesses which have no ocean access other than the point and have been limited to 1/2 mile of beach access. Ocracoke is probably close behind with no access past ramp 72. And as I type the next round is starting. Stated more specifically, just as some areas are opening up other areas are being closed. See the maps on the beach access page www.capehatterasanglersclub.org.

So what have we got for our sacrafice as of July 16?

attempted nests/hatched nests/fledged(fledge rate)​Plover	last year 6 pair 11/6/4(.67)
Plover this year 11 pair 13/8/7(.64)

amoy	last year 39/15/5 
amoy this year 32/15/8

Note that increases in the number of pairs must by definition be the result of past management practices. Note also that this year's weather has been exceptionally calm as is evidenced by the fact that 5 nests were lost due to storms last spring and only 2 nests were lost due to storms this spring.

Clearly, we did not get anything for our sacrafice of revenue and use of the beaches.

The other rub in your post was



> Every fish and bird rely on each other some way in the food chain. With out one, the other will be gone as well.


This may have been unintentional so I will update you. The DOW and Audubon have sanctioned mass predator removal programs including killing of Red Fox which is endangered in other areas, Osprey, and a mass gassing of Geese that USFWS said were eating food reserved for other migratory birds. Meanwhile we have a newly listed species the Buxton Mouse and no efforts are made to preserve their habitat by dealing with the persistent flooding in the Cape Point area. Does the above seem consistent with the view that all critters are important? I think not. Does the above make it seem like the real goal of DOW and Audubon is to minimize human presence on the island? Yes, especially when you consider their support for critical habitat (DOW sued to get it), Center for Diversity's continued litigation regarding exemptions to critical habitat and their campaign to eliminate ORV use in all critical habitat areas, and lets not forget the opposition to replacing our bridge.

So if you are surprised at the response you got, well try to understand the threats we residents and visitors are facing despite the fact that we contribute less than 1% to the plove population and the fact that dredge spoil islands have proven an excellent addition to the beach habitat that was already protected prior to this year. There are alternatives but DOW and Audubon don't want to hear them.


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