# Sick Fish



## fishleader (Mar 29, 2005)

Yeah we see some rockfish that look bad but only a few. Where do they get this dumb stuff?
If you were to check out these news reporters I bet they don't even fish. This is a big problem with the media they write about things they never experience.
I hear all people have cancer cells that are not activated so does that make us sick?
Those who say 75% of the rockfish are sick okay if this is true how did they come up with that percenage?
Notice they don't talk about any of the Rockfish being sick on the east coast only in the Chesapeake bay. We all know Rockfish migrate up and down the east coast as well to enter the Chesapeake Bay to spawn. Have you noticed on TV they only show one person with a bad looking hand and did you see where the infection is? Yeah on the top of his hand.
This state has to prove more to convince me the Rockfish are in that much trouble as they say.
I say bull - - - - Im going fishing.


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## Orest (Jul 28, 2003)

*It seems to every year*

around this time there is a report saying the Rockfish are sick; and your right which one the resident ones or the one returning to spawn?


The fish maybe sick, it's the dam Bay that is sick.


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## MANDINGO (Apr 4, 2004)

*How Do They Get 75%*

No Way. Lemme Put It This Way. If I Get 100 Of You Fisherman In One Place I Bet We Would Be Hardpressed To Find Everyone 100% Healthy. So Do We Think Fish Are Different.not Even. Yes Some Are Sick But Not That Many. Those Numbers Just Dont Look Right. Question Arent Some Of Those Lesions Actually Sea Lice On Those Fish Coming From The Atlantic To The Bay ?


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## NONESUCH (Apr 28, 2005)

*Sick fish*

I am very concern about the the most recent report about the sick stripers in the bay, i have not heard of other areas having this experience therefore it seems whatever is happening to these fish is really in the bay 
For the time been i will not eat any striper from the bay or super market wild or farm raised something is not right 
The problem you can't tell the condition of the fish in the early stage of the decease and that is a risk we should not take ,the last report i saw they asked not even to touch these sick fish to avoid contamination


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## Dae (Jun 25, 2002)

The outward appearance of a Mad Fish (This is my term for fish infected with Myco, similiar to what they call cows with Bovine Spongiform) may look healthy so don't think that a fish without lesions is not infected.

Unless you have a way to test for bacteria, the only sure sign of Mad Fish is by looking at the spleen or liver. Some infected fish do have lesions but lesions are usually caused by another disease.

Mycobacteriosis is a real and terrible infection that can harm humans. If you read the postings on Tidal Fish, you can read 1st hand accounts of people that have been infected and the problems it caused. People have died from this infection so be very careful.

Based on what's happened since the Post article, I feel that the State of MD has been trying to keep this problem hush hush because of the economic impact this can have and is putting the states economy above the health of it's residents.

Believe me, if there was no possible economic impact, I doubt Gov Erlich would be on TV staying he was eating a Rockfish taken from the Bay. 

If you read the Post article, you will see that they did NOT pull the 75% figure from thin air. We may not know how they, the scientists from VIMS and other organizations, came up with the numbers but if you have studied statistics, you will know that the 75% has to be pretty darn close to the actual rate of infection.

I'm not saying to not fish for or not eat Rockfish, but you need to be careful and understand the possible consequences. We know people can die of Myco infections, but I don't know if anyone yet knows what may happen if you eat a well cooked fish with Myco. 

I myself, will still fish for them, but I will now wear gloves when handling them and will NOT eat them. Thank God I don't like eating fish and I'm not any good at catching them.


- Dae


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## shaggy (Jun 18, 2003)

Me, remember the oyster scare back when, and kept on eating and for better or worse, I AIn't dead yet. Hell, now they say you need organic milk, grew up on vitamin D AIn't dead yet (though have switched to 2% and that is as "LOW" as I go). The press seems to put the worst light on a story (one died here there, and yes, although sad, look at the percentages, me figure more people die from peanuts and byproducts). Me, other than the box scores in the paper, put very little creedence into what I read in the rags, or hear on the TV/radio, guess I am skeptical of what is the "Truth".

Me, prefer the stripers out of the ocean, but never hesitated to eat a Bay caught one. Hype, fact or fiction, guess I won't know until I die, and then I won't care.

Have Jeep will travel


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## Bunkerboy (Jan 14, 2006)

I caught alot of stripers last year at seagull 6 over 30" in one day on a pin rig. 75% sounds about right, as probably half had visable sores. I got one that I dont know how was still alive, you could see through both sides of the fish.Alomst had a 4inch hole clean thruogh it.  Anybody Know why it's pretty much only rockfish getting infected?


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## NTKG (Aug 16, 2003)

theres about 50 different reasons that are theorized. 

none of which are any better than anyone elses... temp, pollutants, food source, bunker, etc... the bay is in crappy shape.... period... 

the scare, over-played like everything else in our made up media. but like dae said, very real none the less. fine line between real and exagerated.

during the spawning times, ALMOST ALL of the fish have sores here upriver because they are in a foot or less of water getting busted around, esp the bottoms, the bottom half of the tail and fins etc. but I can see what they mean for "resident fish" in the bay, i've seen alot of questionable stuff in the water in the bay.

the actual figure, bullchit. there is noway to actually make a percentage figure like that, but not to say they are just high, hell they could be low by 10percent. and again, bad catch and release creates sores too! 

the financial reaction is the only thing that is real, and is the only thing everyone else other than fisherman care about so we'll see what happens. yea we can have vimms and everyone else in the state study it, but i have friends that work and intern at vimms, they aint the brightest of the bunch. lets just say the A students in Bio dont neccessarily thing of Vimms as the best career choice. 

im with you guys, i hope we can do something to help the fishery, me personally i think we've just topped the current carrying cap, and need to cull more, but hey! 

jmho. i hope we can find out whats going on here...


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## NONESUCH (Apr 28, 2005)

*Dae*

You have said it all, stay away from eating and handling stripers 
AS it stands all the experts still without a single clue where this type of disease came from , about 2 yrs ago i caught a 26'' fish all covered with myco bacteria a large head and a skeletal body 
Ladies & gentlemen we have so many fish to choose from whenever we want to eat fish for diner, just be careful


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## catman (May 28, 2001)

As much as I like eating fish I will not eat anymore rock caught in the bay. Last week I cleaned out my freezer and disposed of at least 25 lbs of rock filets. I'm just not going to knowingly put my health or my family's health at risk. Right now I'm pretty much turned off to even fishing for them this coming season.:--|


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## Big Rad (May 19, 2003)

*I'm with Shaggy on this one*

AS the health concious hype hits, the worst case is applied and implied to be the norm. I too have seen the flip-flop on health issues. I'll stick to trusting the God above. If you guys don't wanna fish for em that is fine. I see it as more space on the beach for me. Dang Nick, I would a taken them filets off your hands .

To each his own........If you are afraid of the Rock how do you feel about the hardheads swimming in the same water? I'm telling y'all it is an alien plot. They can't harvest us if we have rockfish in our systems so they have created a scare tactic program


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## fishnrock (Jan 31, 2006)

*I am a captain and a mate on the bay*

I have handled well over 5,000 rockfish without gloves and have eaten them since I can remember. I have had them cut me, scrape me with there mouths and spine me. I am doing fine. Try a little preventive medicine afterwards.

You can say and think what you want. The guy in the article is looking for grant money, enough said. Oh that wasn't in the article, imagine that!Maryland rules have led to some problems. You should be able to keep some smaller fish to even out the population, enough said.

Bottom line - no gloves, eat the fish, if they look sick, let them go. Have fun and fish. www.fishfearus.com


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## Orest (Jul 28, 2003)

> If you read the Post article, you will see that they did NOT pull the 75% figure from thin air. We may not know how they, the scientists from VIMS and other organizations, came up with the numbers *but if you have studied statistics, you will know that the 75% has to be pretty darn close to the actual rate of infection*.


Just stating my own thoughts here and not meant to p&^% anyone off.

"What a load of crap." As Frank would say.

I work for the Bureau of Labor Statistics, which by itself DOES NOT make me an expert as I am a Software Engineer for them, you can make the number say anything you want. We have no idea which fish were included in the sample, which fish were kept out. Did they include all Stripers in their sample, or only legal size Striper, or over fish just over 12". Did they just shock one area that happen to be close to a water treatment plant that dump raw sewage into the Bay. Or did they catch there fish the inner harbor area or the CBBT area?

Anytime someone states a statistical value in their work and you can't ask them about their sampling. I say beware.


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## shaggy (Jun 18, 2003)

Don't know, but one can get numbers to "work" anyway they want. Me, the past few years though can say from personal catches, 3 out of every 4 stripers I have caught were NOT sick, but that is just my sampling, and can only remember throwing one fish back because of leasions in the last 4 years. Now let me see, figure an average of 30 bay stripers a year (many undersized), from Kent Island, to Sandy Point to the Narrows as well as other undisclosed locations on the Bay. 30 times 4 is 120. One throw back out of 120, well my research therefore shows a 0.83% of the stripers sick.

Guess that may be why I am not dead yet, mostly get lucky and catch healthy fish, and lots of shorts.

Have Jeep will travel


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## Orest (Jul 28, 2003)

*Hey Bob now for me to believe*

your statistics I will need to know the location of the following areas.


> as well as other undisclosed locations on the Bay.


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## shaggy (Jun 18, 2003)

Orest, if I told ya, well as they say, then I would have to kill ya  , but suffice it to say, most, not all, are located within twenty minutes of my house and on the east side of the bridge, but a few western shore spots as well. 

With that said, you live to enjoy another day. Besides, my numbers work for me  

Have Jeep will travel


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## Lipyourown (May 11, 2005)

75% seems high to me. Not sure if it is unreliable science or media hype. I don't care which. What I am glad about is it be front page news on a national paper. More people will take notice and hopefully that propels politicians to do real work on the bay's health: like the spotted owl issue out west. I feel the economic impact will hurt the commercial fishery much, much more than the bait shops, marina's etc. becuase I feel most people who sportfish the bay are gonna fish it til they die no matter what.


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## fishleader (Mar 29, 2005)

*Sick Fish-huh-- if you say so*

Believe what you want about the Rockfish but like I said I'm going fishing and what will be will be. 
I can say this I will handle a rockfish over a chicken any day. We have more serious problems like the incoming bird flu that we should be more worried about.


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## Dae (Jun 25, 2002)

fishleader said:


> Believe what you want about the Rockfish but like I said I'm going fishing and what will be will be.
> I can say this I will handle a rockfish over a chicken any day. We have more serious problems like the incoming bird flu that we should be more worried about.



Fishleader,

Your post has me a little scared, so I hope you're just a rec anger and not a charter captain that takes others out fishing.

The reason your posts are scaring me is because I've noticed you've started the same exact thread on other forums and are just cutting and pasting the same info. And the impression I get is that you don't care about this issue and are trying to get others to just ignore the problem.

The only reason I can see someone posting the same thing over and over again, on differnent forums, trying to give people the impression that the problem should be ignored because it's not really a problem is if there is some type of impact to them.

Based on that, I think you're in the industry and you are worried about a possible economic impact it may have on you. And what would really scares me is if you're a charter captain taking others out for rockfishing and throwing caution to the wind; you might be putting others in danger. 

If you are just a rec angler, what you choose to do won't have any impact on others since it's just you going after Rockfish. So I apologize to you if I was out of line thinking you would gain by telling folks this isn't a problem. Now if you are in the seafood industry, especially a Charter Captain, shame on you for throwing caution to the wind.

BTW, today, I read a article about how the wholesale cost of rockfish dropped from $2.60 to $1.50 a pound within 2 weeks of the Post article and how this can have a hugh economic impact on those in the industy. In addition to that article, I read another article how some resturantes are now spending 3 times what they normally spend on Rockfish to get it form outside the Chesapeake Bay. It seems there already been an economic impact.

- Dae


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## fyremanjef (Feb 17, 2005)

*Reporting Healthy & Sick Fish*

Does anyone report the catches of sick or even healthy fish? Does the DNR have a line for such report? I know there is a sick fish line (for fish kills, etc) but I caught 2 rock today that were free of sores. 

I am thinking because they DNR has a flounder reporting system. you are supposed to report trips flounder fishing and either good or bad so they can regulate and monitor the catches or lack there of.

If such a large # of rock are reported to be ill, but all the shore fishermen and boaters can not produce any unhealthy fish, shouldnt this be documented somewhere? 

Anyone have any ideas?

jeff


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## Dae (Jun 25, 2002)

fyremanjef said:


> Does anyone report the catches of sick or even healthy fish? Does the DNR have a line for such report? I know there is a sick fish line (for fish kills, etc) but I caught 2 rock today that were free of sores.



Jeff,

Sore free does NOT exclude the Rock from having Myco. So unless you gutted the fish to look at the Spleen and Liver, or took a blood sample, you can't tell. 

It's like a person with HIV. You can have the disease but until it gets really bad, there's not outward signs.

- Dae


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## catman (May 28, 2001)

Dae said:


> Jeff,
> 
> Sore free does NOT exclude the Rock from having Myco. So unless you gutted the fish to look at the Spleen and Liver, or took a blood sample, you can't tell.
> 
> ...


Dae you beat me to it. We really don't know from our own experiences how many of these fish are infected unless we gut the fish and look at the liver. Most of us just filet the fish without knowing what going on inside. Like it said earlier I'm not eating any more rock for the bay but for those that do it may be a good idea to inside of each fish you keep for consumption.

As for posts like that of Fishleader.....well it's pretty obvious what the intention is there.


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## Fish Bait (Feb 10, 2003)

Dae and Catman, 
You guys are on the right track. The problem is that people hear infection and think sick fish or fish with skin lesions. It's comparing apples and oranges - the fish can be infected but not sick.

To say that 75% of the stripers are infected means: Mycobacterium marinum can be detected in 75% of the fish in random sample. It doesn't say any thing about the health or appearance of the fish and that includes the spleen and liver.

Years ago i worked in a TB laboratory (the bug that causes TB in humans is a relative of the one that we are talking about in fish) and you can find many people who test positive for TB and have never been sick. There are lots of examples of infection in the absence of sickness.


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## Orest (Jul 28, 2003)

*So what are we looking for*

If we gut the fish and look at the liver?


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## SeaSalt (Apr 29, 2002)

MD DNR has a nice information about stripers with mycobacteriosis. Mycobacteriosis sometimes cannot be detected from the outside. Here's a healthy fish(A) and fish with mycobacteriosis (B).


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## catman (May 28, 2001)

Thanks Sea Salt for the pics. That's the kind of info we need to get some heads out of the sand. I suspect that a lot more guys will be gutting their fish now. Hope everybody save those photos.


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## Fish Bait (Feb 10, 2003)

Remember, the fish can be infected even if the liver and spleen look normal. I think it is safe to assume that most of the fish that you take from the bay will be infected.


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## catman (May 28, 2001)




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## SeaSalt (Apr 29, 2002)

FishBait, does that mean, we shouldn't eat rockfish from the bay?


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## fishnrock (Jan 31, 2006)

*How in the heck...*



Fish Bait said:


> Remember, the fish can be infected even if the liver and spleen look normal. I think it is safe to assume that most of the fish that you take from the bay will be infected.


can you make a statement like that? You should be a reporter!

and this from DNR - duh -
FISH PREPARATION AND CONSUMPTION

Can I get mycobacteria from eating a “tainted” rockfish?
A recent check of the published medical studies on this kind of infection in human beings shows that eating properly prepared and cooked rockfish has not been associated with human mycobacterial illness. DHMH recommends that people not consume any raw rockfish or any fish that appears diseased.

Should I be concerned about preparing rockfish? 
No. Use common sense when preparing your fish fillet. Fish with open, reddened lesions on the body or with signs of hemorrhage or darkened patches in the fillets should be discarded. Fish that appear to be healthy and are properly cooked are safe to eat. DHMH recommends that people not consume any raw rockfish or any fish that appears diseased.

go figure - eat it - if it looks bad - don't eat it - is there any common sense anymore?

No one has ever had a bad piece of meat? good grief!


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## Fish Bait (Feb 10, 2003)

John, From what i understand you can eat the fish so long as you cook them properly.


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## Fish Bait (Feb 10, 2003)

Fishnrock, Which part of what i said do you take issue with?


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## fishnrock (Jan 31, 2006)

Fish Bait said:


> I think it is safe to assume that most of the fish that you take from the bay will be infected.


This part -


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## Fish Bait (Feb 10, 2003)

Fishnrock,
We're back to that 75% figure! By most i mean more than half so if anything close to 75% are infected that would be most. So unless that 75% estimate is wildly off the mark, odds are that most of the stripers in the bay are infected.

As far as eating the fish i think i will do much the same as i do chicken or pork. I don't eat under cooked pork or chicken and i don't let the cooked meat come in contact with utensil that were used for the raw meat etc.

I'm not a reporter I'm a retired microbiologist.


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## Dae (Jun 25, 2002)

Fish Bait said:


> Fishnrock,
> I'm not a reporter I'm a retired microbiologist.


Fishrock,

I was told that they are now finding some pathogens are surviving cooking and pasteurization.

Can you tell me how true that statement maybe and at what the minimum temp might be required to kill Myco? 

I'm just wondering how well cooked it needs to be to be sure you've killed the bacteria being that all I hear from the State and DNR is that you need to make sure it's well cooked as the guideline.

Thanks,

- Dae


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## fishnrock (Jan 31, 2006)

*Facts and a brief message ......*

In the United States, most human infections due to this bacteria had been associated with exposures to fish tanks. 

Human infections by M. marinum are rare. However, people who have breaks in the skin such as cuts and scrapes may be at risk 

(AP) Officials at four state agencies insist rockfish caught in the Chesapeake Bay are safe to eat, despite a published report about a bacterial infection that's harming the fish.

The state's natural resources, environment, agriculture and health departments all say the fish pose no significant health threats to humans and are safe to eat when thoroughly cooked. At what degree I have no idea, just cook it until it flakes.

Currently, DNR surveys indicate that as many as 60 percent of striped bass in the Chesapeake Bay have this disease.

Not 75% and I would like to see the study that says 60%.

"Fish that appear to be healthy and are properly prepared and cooked are safe to eat," said DHMH Secretary S. Anthony McCann. "You should discard any fish with open, reddened lesions on the body or those with signs of hemorrhage or darkened patches in the fillets."

Health officials also verified that people who have contact with striped bass through fishing, transportation or preparation of food dishes should not be overly concerned with mycobacteriosis infections if they follow basic hygiene precautions, including hand-washing.

Historically, mycobacteriosis has not significantly impacted the level of striped bass populations in the Chesapeake Bay and has not presented a public health concern. Yet, scientists remain concerned for the potential long-term impacts to the species. In May, the USGS National Fish Health Research Laboratory and NOAA’s Cooperative Oxford Laboratory are convening a workshop of scientists and managers engaged in the issue to discuss the current status of mycobacteriosis and prioritize and coordinate future research efforts.

Final thought - and my first posts states this. I have handled well over 5,000 rockfish a season(and that is propably a small number). I have seen the lesions, we throw those fish back, it amazes me they even want to eat. I saw more three years ago then last year. Last year we had maybe 6-12 bad looking fish. That is out of over 5,000 fish at least. We usually catch anywhere from a skunk (which I do not like to over 100 fish per trip when chumming. We had a two week period during the summer last year where we caught all fish trolling and none were in bad shape. Good five to 20 pound fish in the upper bay, everyday for about two weeks. 

I know for a fact one of the people clamming to have this disease is lookng for grant money, well he found it, I'm sure.

Good Luck Fishing to all this season. Captain Marc Van Pelt


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## shaggy (Jun 18, 2003)

SeaSalt, me figure males and females are inherently different, some reason my wife's boobs are different than mine, and so are other "outward" parts, and not any anatomy expert, but figure you cut us both open and we different in there too  , so would give more weight to a comparing a healthy male against an "infected" male, or a healthy female versus an "infected" female. Still reminds me of that oyster thing from years back, me kept eatin them because I love them, and the best part is, I only love them raw, not fried, not in soups, not rockafellered, raw, on the half, horseradish and lemon!

I AIn't dead yet.

Have Jeep will travel


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## Fish Bait (Feb 10, 2003)

Dae,
The minimum temperature to kill bacteria in food is 160F and that applies to fish, chicken, or pork. If you use a meat thermometer, stick the probe in the thickest part of the meat. There is a bug called campylobacter that requires 180F but i don't think we need to worry about that (yet?).

I plan to catch and eat - i'm just going to be more careful.


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## MANDINGO (Apr 4, 2004)

*Go Figure*

BEEF= MAD CAOW DISEASE
CHICKEN= ASIAN BIRD FLU
ROCKFISH=BACTERIA INFECTION
NEXT THE VEGGIES ARE GONNA HAVE TOO MUCH GOODNESS IN THEM AND BE GOOD FOR YOU


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## Smoothbore54 (Jun 8, 2003)

*NEWS FLASH*

*Sh*t runs down hill.*

Here's a little research project that might help you focus on the problem.

Trace the sewer from *your house,* and see where it goes.

Now, recycling is a fine thing, but once it's been flushed the first time, I don't want it to reappear on my dinner table.

Deal with it.


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## fishleader (Mar 29, 2005)

*yep they are sick stay home*

There is no change in sick fish from last year or the year before only difference is the media is writing what thay believe. I suggest you go to the DNR home page and read what thay have to say and do as they say. 
I work as a mate on a charter boat and if any one should worry it's me. When I see a bad looking fish I use a glove as a matter of fact I use a glove on all the fish just so I don't get cut up. If you let the media scare you by what they are writing then you have a big problem.
I suggest if you are worried about sick fish you are not going to enjoy yourself when you go fishing so why not take up golf or something else.


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## Dae (Jun 25, 2002)

fishleader said:


> There is no change in sick fish from last year or the year before only difference is the media is writing what thay believe. I suggest you go to the DNR home page and read what thay have to say and do as they say.
> I work as a mate on a charter boat and if any one should worry it's me. When I see a bad looking fish I use a glove as a matter of fact I use a glove on all the fish just so I don't get cut up. If you let the media scare you by what they are writing then you have a big problem.
> I suggest if you are worried about sick fish you are not going to enjoy yourself when you go fishing so why not take up golf or something else.



You don't have to give up fishing, You just have to give up fishing for Rockfish, especailly in the Chesapeake.

Do you remember what happened with HIV? People and the Gov't didn't want to admit this disease could kill people because little to nothing was known and some folks said it was a gay disease. Don't repeat the same mistake. 

I'm not saying not to fish or eat Rockfish, I'm saying one needs to be very cautious, especially someone like you. It seems no one is sure what's causing the Myco problem or how dangerous it might be to a person if infected. The only things I know for sure about it is that it's in the Tuberculosis family and it has infected and kill some folks.

Maybe Myco no worse the a bee sting (I'm talking about how a sting effects differect people differently) but without knowing for sure, just be really careful.

- Dae


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## fishnrock (Jan 31, 2006)

*it is statements like this that drive me crazy!*

You just have to give up fishing for Rockfish, especailly in the Chesapeake. From Dae.

If you really feel this way, just give up fishing and go golfing, watch out for fertilizer

I talked to a commercial waterman yesterday, who has fished his whole life on the bay, probably caught more rockfish then we will all ever see. He says the media is crazy! I Agree! Do you believe everything you read from the Washington Post? Have you checked her facts?

He said this winter they caught more HEALTHY rockfish, then you could ever fathom. Some days a 1,000 lbs. and more!

You just don't get it, so please quit fishing!


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## FunnyFishMan (Nov 19, 2004)

You know if 75% of the rockfish are infected, most likely the infection started years ago? I would think that would be the case. So let me ask you this...if that is the case then most of us have eaten and handled rocks in that time.

I'm not sick...and the fish was gooooood eaten. I think this is some type of hype that the media is feeding into the population for what reason??? Who knows, maybe to stop the fishin of rock for a while. Maybe some lonely, goofy mad scientist needs some funding money. Maybe it is true, but I think the truth sometimes get exagerated a bit...no need to tell a fisherman that!!!!

This is my personal take on the matter, I do respect all of the views and opinions of my fellow fisherman.

If I see a sick lookin fish, I'm not going to eat it...if I see some bad meat when I open it up, I will unfortunately throw it out...nothing is perfect in this world...so be it...keep the lines tight my friends!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

FFM


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## fishnrock (Jan 31, 2006)

*Ffm*

well stated! enough said on this subject - look outside - GO FISH!


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## Tinybaum (Mar 8, 2004)

I am with Shaggy on this one. . ..

Rock season they start this talk every year. . .

Deer season you start hearing about cronic waste. . . out of 9 deer we had check this past season zero came back positive...

It is media hype, and to a certain degree the anti fisherman, and tree huggers.

Do I believe some fish are sick? I sure do, I won't eat anything that looks sick, or doesn't look right when I cut it. . .but just like the artical said, prepare your fish right and cook it. . .

Big Rad. . .I am with you and the more beach free to fish on

Tiny


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