# Permit vs Pompano



## hugehail

Ive read an article about a guy who caught a 9 lb 10z Pompano south of Melbourne back in 2001 and was convinced it was a world record, only to be shot down.


"Saltwater: A possible world record pompano was caught Tuesday by Jimmy Brechtel of Cocoa. Brechtel's catch, a 9-pound, 1-ounce fish, was caught at Melbourne Shores Beach, the data is being sent in for validation. The current record is 8 pounds, 4 ounces, caught by Barry Huston in Port St. Joe in 1999."

But there's a possibility Brechtel's fish may be a permit.

At that size, it almost takes a marine biologist to tell the difference.

"No one can ID it positively . . . a fish that size is so close to a permit that the only way you can tell is by counting the number of rays on the dorsal fin," said Jack Rinehart at CJ's Reel Repair in Port Canaveral. "But I'm 99.04 percent sure it's a pompano."

Glenda Kelley, the marine biologist at the International Game Fish Association who will have to help certify Brechtel's catch, is not so sure.

After examining a photograph of the fish that had been e-mailed, Kelley had doubts.

"Looks like a permit to me. It has a deeper body and blunter head than the Florida pompano," Kelley wrote in an e-mail.

She won't make a final decision until Kelley examines the actual fish, which Brechtel has preserved in his freezer.

Then one month later:


"NO RECORD FOR BRECHTEL

That 9-pound, 1-ounce fish that Jim Brechtel of Cocoa caught in the surf south of Melbourne Beach, thought to be a world-record pompano, is not. International Game Fish Association biologist Glenda Kelley said the fish definitely is a permit. As such, it's nowhere near a record catch. The current world-record permit, caught by James Sebestyen at Fort Lauderdale in 1997, weighed 56 pounds, 2 ounces."


Other big catches that I found for Pomps were:

March 15, 1984 Flagler Beach, 8 lb 1 oz Chester Dietrick
February 18 or 19, 1989 Daytona Beach Shores 8 lbs 1.5 oz John Lukasiewicz
Late April 2012 Vero Beach 8 lbs 8 oz (not certified) Manuel Briceno


Are permit a warmer water fish so that huge pomps caught in warm water could be confused with Permit? Anyway it sounds like Pompano and Permit are very hard to distinguish, especially the
large ones.


jf


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## Kellercl

hugehail said:


> Ive read an article about a guy who caught a 9 lb 10z Pompano south of Melbourne back in 2001 and was convinced it was a world record, only to be shot down.
> 
> 
> "Saltwater: A possible world record pompano was caught Tuesday by Jimmy Brechtel of Cocoa. Brechtel's catch, a 9-pound, 1-ounce fish, was caught at Melbourne Shores Beach, the data is being sent in for validation. The current record is 8 pounds, 4 ounces, caught by Barry Huston in Port St. Joe in 1999."
> 
> But there's a possibility Brechtel's fish may be a permit.
> 
> At that size, it almost takes a marine biologist to tell the difference.
> 
> "No one can ID it positively . . . a fish that size is so close to a permit that the only way you can tell is by counting the number of rays on the dorsal fin," said Jack Rinehart at CJ's Reel Repair in Port Canaveral. "But I'm 99.04 percent sure it's a pompano."
> 
> Glenda Kelley, the marine biologist at the International Game Fish Association who will have to help certify Brechtel's catch, is not so sure.
> 
> After examining a photograph of the fish that had been e-mailed, Kelley had doubts.
> 
> "Looks like a permit to me. It has a deeper body and blunter head than the Florida pompano," Kelley wrote in an e-mail.
> 
> She won't make a final decision until Kelley examines the actual fish, which Brechtel has preserved in his freezer.
> 
> Then one month later:
> 
> 
> "NO RECORD FOR BRECHTEL
> 
> That 9-pound, 1-ounce fish that Jim Brechtel of Cocoa caught in the surf south of Melbourne Beach, thought to be a world-record pompano, is not. International Game Fish Association biologist Glenda Kelley said the fish definitely is a permit. As such, it's nowhere near a record catch. The current world-record permit, caught by James Sebestyen at Fort Lauderdale in 1997, weighed 56 pounds, 2 ounces."
> 
> 
> Other big catches that I found for Pomps were:
> 
> March 15, 1984 Flagler Beach, 8 lb 1 oz Chester Dietrick
> February 18 or 19, 1989 Daytona Beach Shores 8 lbs 1.5 oz John Lukasiewicz
> Late April 2012 Vero Beach 8 lbs 8 oz (not certified) Manuel Briceno
> 
> 
> Are permit a warmer water fish so that huge pomps caught in warm water could be confused with Permit? Anyway it sounds like Pompano and Permit are very hard to distinguish, especially the
> large ones.
> 
> 
> jf


Permit are more silver with slight yellow on their underside. Pompano tend to have much more yellow. But yeah, they are very closely related in structure. I could see easily being confused. Now if I caught what looked like I pompano that was 9+lbs, perhaps I jaded, but I would assume it was a permit and not actually a world record. Just seems like the odds are in favor of the permit direction.


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## ez2cdave

I found a couple of things . . .
*
http://fishbites.com/identifying-permit-vs-pompano/*










From the Fishbites article . . . 


*Can you tell the difference?*

These fast-swimming coastal fishes are a challenge to catch and, as a result, are coveted by

Florida anglers; the pompano has the added enticement of being a popular dinner entree. The two species are remarkably similar in appearance but very different in size as adults—a situation that confuses many anglers who, thinking they have reeled in a world-record-size pompano, are disappointed to learn that they have actually hooked a permit, and a small one at that.

Pompano and permit are members of the jack family, Carangidae, which includes about 140 species worldwide. Jacks are characterized by their silvery, thin bodies and deeply forked tail fins. Many have elongated dorsal fins. Florida relatives of the pompano and permit include palometa, crevalle jack, yellow jack, lookdown, amberjack, and a variety of scads.

Because pompano and permit are very similar in appearance, anglers often confuse them. Adult pompano and permit can be distinguished from each other by their size. Pompano rarely grow larger than seven pounds, whereas permit weighing 40 pounds are common. The body of a juvenile permit is deeper than that of a pompano of similar length; also, the anal fin of the juvenile permit is orange. As permit grow, their body depth decreases in relation to their length, and fin coloration changes from orange to yellow, making them look like huge pompano. The best way to distinguish between these species is to count the dorsal and anal fin rays. Pompano have more.

Florida pompano (Trachinotus carolinus) have a deep, thin, silvery body with a greenish gray back, which slopes gradually to a rounded head with a blunt snout and small mouth. In dark waters, pompano may have a gold tinge on the throat, belly, and fins. Six short spines are located in front of an elongated dorsal fin, which is set low on the fish’s back and is matched by a slightly shorter anal fin underneath. The first few soft rays of these fins are elongated, followed by a narrow band of soft rays that lead to the deeply forked Vshaped tail. The dorsal fin has 22 to 27 soft rays; the anal fin has 20 to 23 rays. The fins of pompano may be yellow. Florida pompano may reach 25 inches and 8 pounds.

The body of the permit (Trachinotus falcatus) is silvery, with a dark or iridescent blue back. In dark waters, orange or even golden tints on larger specimens may be visible around the breast. The dorsal fin of the permit has 17 to 21 rays; the anal fin has 16 to 19 rays.

Many adult permit have a large circular black splotch on their sides, behind the base of the pectoral fin.
Young permit have bright orange pelvic and anal fins, as well as small teeth on the tongue. Permit may grow to 59 inches and 79 pounds.

Both pompano and permit have distinctive plates at the back of the mouth that help them crush the hard-shelled crustaceans and mollusks they eat.

Pompano are coastal fish and are generally found in schools along sandy beaches, around inlets, and in brackish bays and estuaries, where they inhabit oyster bars and seagrass beds. They tolerate a wide range of environmental variables, including cold temperatures, low dissolved-oxygen levels, and low salinities—as long as the changes occur gradually. Although typically a shallow-water species, they have been found in waters up to 130 feet deep.



Thanks to the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission, and Fish and Wildlife Research Institute for this information.


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## hugehail

Based on that information, this 9 lb rascal caught in Vero Beach by Manuel Briceno in April 2012 is a pompano. Its too bad he didnt get it certified.

http://www.veronews.com/news/vero_beach/spotlight/vero-beach-angler-reels-in-record-pompano/article_76fad1f6-9269-11e1-a586-001a4bcf6878.html

jf


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## Kellercl

hugehail said:


> Based on that information, this 9 lb rascal caught in Vero Beach by Manuel Briceno in April 2012 is a pompano. Its too bad he didnt get it certified.
> 
> http://www.veronews.com/news/vero_beach/spotlight/vero-beach-angler-reels-in-record-pompano/article_76fad1f6-9269-11e1-a586-001a4bcf6878.html
> 
> jf


That clearly is a permit. All silver, not near enough yellow.. Permit have yellow only around their anal fin, pompano have yellow on their entire underside. Not a chance it was a pompano. Below is a pic of a pompano.


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## hugehail

I was going by the fin on the back that looked more like the pomp fin since it wasnt angled toward the back steeply. But maybe the tip off should have been that it was caught in late April. Arent the biggest ones earlier in the season in the Vero area? There probably arent many Permit around in Feb-Mar.


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## pods

Coloration of a huge pomp may be silvery, I have caught even small ones that are more silvery white rather than yellowish but the fin placement tells me that Vero beach fish was a pompano.
I downloaded the pic and turned it sideways (try it). You can clearly see that the dorsal fin starts well ahead of the anal fin.


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## Kellercl

pods said:


> Coloration of a huge pomp may be silvery, I have caught even small ones that are more silvery white rather than yellowish but the fin placement tells me that Vero beach fish was a pompano.
> I downloaded the pic and turned it sideways (try it). You can clearly see that the dorsal fin starts well ahead of the anal fin.


http://ghosthunterfishing.com/permit/permit-fish-image-17_16.html

The dorsal fin starts before the anal fin as well... so that is a 20 lb pompano?


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## ez2cdave

I wonder if any cross-breeding may have occurred with Pompano and Permit ?


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## fishnchevy

Yeah I've seen some big Pampano.
I have been lucky enough to hook into five of these. Permit.
Was able to land three.
One heckuva fight.


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## SloppyTilapia

Just to throw some more confusion into the mix....there is another fish in the same family that is on the smaller side, like a pompano. I think they are called palmetto or palametto (sp?).


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## ez2cdave

SloppyTilapia said:


> Just to throw some more confusion into the mix....there is another fish in the same family that is on the smaller side, like a pompano. I think they are called palmetto or palametto (sp?).



Palometa - Trachinotus goodei


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## BPReeds

Old thread, but its not very hard to tell the difference if you have caught a lot over time....Our Florida pomps are whitish, by the way, with a little yellow....The dorsal fin on the permit sweeps back and is pointy....the anal fin is longer and sweeps back also pointy...I have eaten a few small permit and they are not as good as pomps....The big ones, I release.....


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## hugehail

Here is a video of Manuel Briceno in a commercial for Fish Bites after catching the 9 pd Pompano in April 2012. 

http://fishbites.com/fishbites-blog/


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## ez2cdave




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## Kellercl

So is Permit as good to eat as I've heard? I've never had the privilege. I will say out of the 30+ fish I've eaten, Pompano is my favorite. Followed by Sheepshead and Cobia.


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## BPReeds

In my opinion , no, even the smaller one's not as good as pompano....My favorite would whiting, sheep, then pompano....


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## Kellercl

BPReeds said:


> In my opinion , no, even the smaller one's not as good as pompano....My favorite would whiting, sheep, then pompano....


I've never tried whiting, however I absolutely love Sheep and Pompano. Apparently I need to try whiting. I rarely catch those, but I don't surf fish much either. I tend to hit Mangroves in a boat.


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## SloppyTilapia

If whiting averaged about 3-4 pounds, that would be ideal. There would be no need to fish for anything else


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## Digger54

What is the range of the permit? They come up into the panhandle area?


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