# We are blessed...



## addict (Apr 26, 2003)

In a world where people are dying everyday, 
I remember 9/11 like it was yesterday.

Though my life is less than perfect,
It cannot compare to the lives of those less fortunate.

Marriage problems,
Children problems,
Parents problems,
Job problems,
School problems,
Tide problems,
Moon problems,
Wind problems,

...somehow they all seem a galaxy away when I think about our people dying in foreign lands all over the world. 

I'd like to take this opportunity to thank our armed forces personnel stationed all over the world, protecting our way of life so that we may have the kinds of problems I've listed above. Without you, there is no U.S. of A.

May you finish your tours without harm and happiest of holidays to all of you. 

God speed.

*Happy holidays to the members here at P&S*

*PS: Mr. Bush: Bring our people home and do your job! Do we really need to spend trillions of $$$ catch a few fanatics?*


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## Smoothbore54 (Jun 8, 2003)

*We Are Blessed* 

With a *President* who's integrity and guts have been tested and proven beyond question.

To ALL *Americans* serving their *Country* and to their *Commander and Chief.*

*Keep Up the GOOD WORK*


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## shaggy (Jun 18, 2003)

I am folowing Smoothbore on this on, and politically incorrect or not, OUR President goes to Iraq and shows his support for the troops, and it's a commercial campaign, something to raise his popularity, but hil goes, and whoa, how great that she would take her time to visit and show her (?) support.

You think 9/11 was planned that quick to blame it on President Bush? I doubt it (look at the facts, who we could have gotten while billy and Monica were doing thier thing in the Or oops Oval office), and for better or worse, President Bush hasn't backed down.

War is not a popular thing, especially when it may be one of your family, but at least President George Bush, Commander in Chief was and is willing to show the troops how he feels and supports them (though it doesn't seem certain Americans do, Merry Christmas troops) no matter what slant the press may put on it. For the record, economy is improving, markets at years high, and if you look back into the records, the economy and the markets went south during Monica's boyfriends term. Enough said, I am registered was a registered independent, and vote for who I think is best, and the Big Guy forbid, I'd hate to see where we may be if gore was president. :barf: 

That said, Happy Holidays, from a guy who's grandfather and father served, and who tried but was turned down due to a sticking heart valve.

Yeah, we all got problems, and mine are minor, so let's work together instead of against!

GBAK

Have Jeep will travel.


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## bluerunner (Jun 30, 2003)

since this is turning into a political debate i thought I would put my two cents in. I support the troops, but I do not support the man who sent them there, and i support him even less since one of my friends had his dad killed in afghanistan. The economy is going up, but its a slow process and i hear that a lot of investment companys are fixing to have big layoffs. I am not democrat or republican but I lean more to democratic values, i guess you could call me a moderate with left leanings. I personally did not like bush or gore, I thought gore was fairly intelligent but did not know how to use his intelligence. I think bush is dumber than a box of rocks but he has decent advisors and listens to them, so i'll give him credit for that. I would rather have had bill bradley or john mccain either one as our president than bush or gore. say what you like about clintons values, he gave us a good economy (can you say NYS&E at 11000) and kept us out of wars. Bosnia doesn't count because we were part of a _multinational_ peacekeeping force.


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## Wilber (May 20, 2003)

It is a WAR on terrorist. Take it to them or they will bring it to us. Freedom has a price.

Best of luck to our boys over there and best wishes for some semblance of a Christmas.


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## jay b (Dec 1, 2002)

They say that Fighting for Peace is like Screwing for Virginity, but those are the same people that find a negative spin on anything they see. I think the only reason we are in the middle east now is because "Slick Willie" was too much of PU&&Y to enforce the rules that George senior laid down the first time we kicked their arse. Anyone that doesn't realize that we as the "Policemen of the World" need to keep the terorists in check, no matter what country they hail from, are only fooling themselves. Yes we as a country are truly blessed to have a President that is willing to stand up to the few that would do us harm and make the sometimes unpopular decisions to put our armed forces in harms way. I personally would rather hear about that than the "man" in office boinking his interns. We can leave that to the French! OOOPS, just realized that I've made a non-fishing remark on the board. Oh well sometimes I just can't help myself, God bless our troups and let's all hope they return home safely and at least try to have an enjoyable holidays, no matter where they are!! Who knows maybe "Dubya" will be there to serve them some holiday ham. Can't imagine the Slickster even having the wedding tackle to make the trip!


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## sand flea (Oct 24, 1999)

*Oh man, this is going to get ugly*

Long as we're talking politics  

First off, it's billions that's being spent in Iraq, not trillions. And second, "a few fanatics" (19, fewer than are logged onto this site right now) were ignored a couple of years ago and as I recall that didn't have a very happy ending. We ignore these fruitcakes at our own peril.

I think you can argue about Iraq until the cows come home and there are good arguments to be made by either side, but Afghanistan was pure self defense. That was al Qaida's little nest, and to have ignored them would have been suicide.

As for whether or not all war is stupid and never solves anything, I'd point to the following groups who might disagree with you:
--Americans in the 1770's (war freed this country)
--Blacks in the 1860's (war ended slavery)
--Jews in the 1940's (war stopped their extermination)

And a million other examples from other countries. War is like a gun; it's neither good nor bad. It all depends on its use.

Yeah, this is a non-fishing thread but the can of worms has been opened...let's just make sure it stays civil.


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## addict (Apr 26, 2003)

*lol - it was never intended 2b political*

I guess I should have left out the last part in my original post.

As our fearless leader (sand flea - not the guy in the white house) has said, I hope this stays civil.

Having said that, I hate Bush and his advisors that convinced him go into Iraq. Of course playing monday night quarterback is not fair, but rather than turn this into a heated debate, I'll just state my distaste for what washington did and hope for the best.

Happy Holidays

PS: The blackfish are biting in the deeper wrecks at 17 fathoms.

Legal Post!


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## oldsalt (May 6, 2003)

Wait up Catman I'm Comming with you!


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## DOVERPOWER (Jun 26, 2000)

http://www.takebackthemedia.com/onearmy.html


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## Manayunk Jake (Oct 3, 2001)

Greetings All!

Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one.

The fact remains that Iraq had nothing to do with September 11, has/had no weapons of mass destruction, and was about as big a threat to the U.S.A. as Pokemon.

The fact remains that George W Bush flew to a "combat" zone for a photo op for his 2004 campaign, not to show his support for the troops. He's already shown his support for the troops by trying to cut their hazard pay, by cutting Veteran's benefits, and by sending them in (against world opinion) to fight and die for oil. I won't go into details about the 30,000 plus innocent Iraqis killed so far in the Bush/Rumsfeld/Cheyney menage-a-trois wet dream about controlling Arab oil. Hopefully the World Court will have the balls to recognize and prosecute the trio as war criminals.

The fact remains that George (I can't remember Viet Nam 'cause I was high on dope) Bush had plenty of warning about 911 courtesy of the Iraeli "art students", but chose to allow the attack to facillitate his year old dream of invading Iraq.

The fact remains that Cheyney and Haliburton are the only ones to come out ahead in this whole mess.

The fact remains that the U.S.A. is now the second most feared nation in the world -- Not because of our military power, but because we have become a nation of religious fanatics willing to invade sovereign nations at the whim of Christian extremists.

The fact remains that hundreds of brave Americans have lost their lives, and thousands more wounded, trying to fight a high tech war against guerillas, something the U.S.A. should remember can suck the life out of any occupying force.

My guess is that twenty years from now all the fine "Americans" who love to demonstrate their support for the "selected" president and his Operation Freedom fiasco will be lined belly-up at the bar bragging how they were dead set against the "blood for oil" campaign. Sadam Hussein was created by the United States, and in a mirror image replay of Mary W Shelley's magnificent piece of fiction, may yet destroy his creator.

I have a recurring dream that I am standing between George W Bush and Sadam Hussein. I have a pistol in my hand, with only one bullet. A thunderous voice from above orders me to put the bullet through the brain of the biggest threat to the American way of life....

Dick Cheyney and friends went "hunting" and shot a couple of hundred pheasant.... I really don't think Claymores are sporting! (Hunting posts are legal, too!)


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## Manayunk Jake (Oct 3, 2001)

Greetings DOVERPOWER!

Just clicked on your link. I found it moving to say the least... Nice to see someone else out there can seperate fact from hype! (Please note: I watch the BBC news to get an accurate picture of what is going on in Iraq, the Middle East, and the world.) And George W complains that he's the victim of a "liberal" media! 

Spent three days in Atlantic City NJ. No fishing (I was on union business), but I did keep a watchful eye on the surf. No birds, only a few boats fishing, and no surf fishermen. I do hear they are still killing big stripers on the clam beds and in the rips, but most are beyond the three mile limit. (Hey, its a legitamate fishing report!)


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## bluerunner (Jun 30, 2003)

well said jake, i would have said it but i didn't want my post to be two pages long. dover the last scene in that slideshow holds special recognition for me (see previous post). 

I support our troops, especially bringing them home.


To make it a legal post: wish i could get to the obx and catch some of them stripers!!!!!


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## Smoothbore54 (Jun 8, 2003)

*Now there's an interesting Concept* 

You get an "Accurate Picture" of World Events, from the BBC. 

A "Nationalized" Media Source, from a *Socialist* Country ?


*Guys, this has gotta' Stop !!! 

I'm bitin' My Tongue so hard, It's gonna' need Stiches.*


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## Kajun (Jul 13, 2003)

for all the liberals and democrats screaming.."bring our troops home"...this wont help you win the presidency back...face it....you will not see a democrat in office for another few years....its time to put aside your pacifist and partisan idealogy's and get with the program...and the program is standing behind your president/country and the troops that volunteered to do whatever is necessary to defend our freedom and safety, and thats including the ultimate sacrifice.not one person who joins the military is clueless to the fact that they could lose thier life in combat.95% of military ppl LIVE for the chance to be in a combat situation...so dont feel sorry for them..they are doing what they dreamed about and volunteered for....send them some cookies and a hustler if you really care for them.

as far as iraq...this is something that should have been done in 91'..so dont whine and cry about it ...we are just finishing a job that was started by the 1st bush (who had his hands tied behind his back by the UN )and that slick willy didnt have the bawls to finish.yes baby george is here to kick butt and take names..get used to it ...if you cant...please find someone esle to run against bush instead of howard dean lol...can you say "landslide victory" boys and girls?lol

as far as some of the "facts" stated in this thread...what a crock of conspiracy theorist/liberal BS....do you actually believe all that stuff? lol..if so i have a private 1 acre striper pond loaded with 40"+ers to sell you...oh yea and the menhaden are running in it!(fishing plug)

thank your lucky stars you have a president who is standing up to the people that want to kill you and your family ANYWAY they can and not some pacifist idiot who preaches peace, love and hair grease while your friendly neighborhood terrorist is plotting to blow up your city and everything you hold dear.

to quote Sammy Kershaw..."you can talk about anything..cept politics..religion and herrrrr" lol....happy holidays people, liberals and democrats!.


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## Smoothbore54 (Jun 8, 2003)

*AMEN Brother, AMEN !!!!*


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## Thrifty Angler (May 5, 2002)

As a country...the US has been thrown so many curve balls under the current leadership til it's ridiculous. With the ealier focus (distraction) on (due to) the war........not much focus was put on the people as a whole as I can remember. Too much "leadership" attention was focused on finishing the job his father couldn't. (Sending a boy to do a man's job? The jury is still out on that one.) Then there entered the ball right outta left field. Things happened and decisions were made on the "homefront" so fast til no one knew what had hit em til it was too late. Come to think of it.......the people as a whole are always to late. Just never enough time given it seems for all to express that opinions where political decisions are concerned. Coincidence? 
A leadership that's definitely *not* for the people ( all groups of the US population that is) but by the people (politicians who are capable of sucking a gallon of "anything" up their snouts). 
Drunken politics?.........Always the same ole dance with these political partners. Two steps forward for their party...........yet 3 steps back for the people who don't dance to their tune. Leaving the unfortunate always "one step" behind.

And for goodness sake........"Where in the world is the vice pres? Hasn't he gotten the word yet that it's now safe to come out of his bunker? Oh well.......hope he's in good spirits. Maybe I should have said, "into good spirits." Probably is if he's held up in a wine cellar somewhere keeping his snout well tuned. Who nose! He'll come up for air soon I'm sure. Don't need a crystal ball for that prediction. Campaigning time is right around the corner. Rallying around "his party's troops" is a must do. Miss that and I'm sure they'll do what they do best with those who no longer conform. Surely he won't risk "banishment". And besides all, where else can one make a few personal appearances, yet collect a wad to boot? 

Kind of similar to the circus in that it comes to town only once in a while, yet the "elephants" are always billed as the main attraction. But you know what they say about that.....they're always trying to please their trainers because they know life is kinder if they go along with the program. One step out of line and they soon feel the wrath of the master's whip. Damn I love being a Democrat. My ancestors would be turning in their graves if I were not.

Don't attend the circus anymore. Why? Aside from the above reason..........after a few times I soon realized the overated participants were not worth their billing. I liked the side shows a lot better. The occassional donkey riding thru always seemed to get everyone's attention. Not as a distraction, but more as a change of pace. The little guy always left an impression. Going to the circus was getting to be like buying a lottery ticket. Taking a chance in hopes that "that one" turns out to have different results. Would love to be there to see one of those elephants crack under pressure. Don't want to be within slinging distance when the (she + it) starts flying though. Simplier to make a batch of popcorn, turn on the news, and let the show begin.

*Prayers always to the troops so honorably serving "our" country. Prayers for continuing strength to their family and friends as well. Prayers for a quick end to the troop's presence in all the Middle East.*


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## Ruedy (Oct 10, 2000)

Yeah, we are all blessed!

We are blessed in that in our past we have had leaders like Gee Dubya who have the guts to stand on their convictions and act with their personal sense of God and morality.......Otherwise, we wouldn't be sitting around on our butts, nice and comfy in our cozy houses talking like this on the internet.


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## JimiDaBeachBumm (Dec 7, 2003)

*No Fish Caught Today. Counting Blessings Instead!*

 *Christmas Greetings to Y'all!* 

As I read the opening of this thread, I, too, counted my blessings. My father, a career Marine, survived two combat tours in Korea and one in Viet Nam. I managed to get through the Viet Nam era relatively intact, minor disability, honorable discharge, draft status 4A. My sons, thankfully, did not have to serve. We will all be together for a hopefully joyful holiday while our military brothers are in a far away land performing their duties as assigned. May God bless them and keep them safe from harm. They are not involved in a needless task, IMHO. What they are doing is very necessary to the safety and security of our nation, regardless of what the folks in the press would have you think. I make this statement with conviction because in my heart I believe that it is true. By taking the fight to the enemy, we have kept him from doing his dirty deeds here on our turf.

Predictions: History will show...

That Bin Laden and Hussein as well as other terrorist factions were working in unison to promote terrorist acts here on mainland USA.

That President Bush leading America into all-out war on Hussein was as necessary as the war on Bin Laden to stifle or squash the organized efforts of terrorist cells planning additional terrorist acts in our country (freezing their stateside assets was an outstanding move). 

That Hussein's WMD did indeed exist and were dismantled, hidden and/or shipped to sympathetic terrorist nations such as Syria (we may never find them or we may find only traces of them). 

That despite the tragedy of American lives lost in this unpopular war, the American citizenry on the whole understood our need to be in the Middle East and supported our Commander in Chief as proven by his overwhelming reelection to a second term.

I say, "Bully for you, Mr. President."

 *JimiDaBeachBumm* 
(An Independent who votes the man, not the party.)
"Life's a beach!"


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## bluerunner (Jun 30, 2003)

Vote General Wesley Clark in '04!!!


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## DOVERPOWER (Jun 26, 2000)

I had gotten into heat for my comments about the war on another board.
So I will not post any of my opinions
That is why I posted the above link.
But I will post a qoute from the last Democratic debate from Ambassedeur Moseley Braun (And no Im not a big fan of hers but I liked the quote)

MOSELEY BRAUN: Thank you very much. 

You know, I'm reminded -- to break the tension a little bit, I'm reminded of an argument my parents had when I was a little girl. The toilet broke, and there was water spewing out. And my mother sent my father off to the hardware store, and he came back with a brand-new lawn mower. 

(LAUGHTER) 

MOSELEY BRAUN: That is the relationship of the fight against terrorism and what has taken us into Iraq.


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## sharkbite (Jun 8, 2001)

I'm neither a Democrat or Republican, and I do support our troops fighting for ? however I do not support President Bush and I think those that do and think he is going to win the next election are going to get a big suprise. As far as the war in Iraq, the reason we're there is still a blur to me. Some say it's because of Bin Laden and Hussein working together, others say it was because of WMD however I have not seen proof of anything. I do know they have NOT found any WMD's as of yet. Yeah, they COULD have been shipped to another country ect. but there is no proof of that either. So I guess the government can change their stories as many times as they wish untill they find one that fits and they can back up? Those that say well there's justifiable cause for our men and women to be over there because Hussein is a threat to our country, show me proof, Tell me exactly why our men and women are dieing overseas when they should be at home with their families. Tell me why we are spending billions of tax dollars on building a new Iraq and there's still starving children wandering the streets here in the US. 

Anyway I notice this statement on this thread, 



> Yeah, we all got problems, and mine are minor, so let's work together instead of against!


Only when everyone can work together both Democrat and Republican side by side, setting apart their differances in views and finding that happy middle ground instead of bashing the others ideas will this country be great once more. Of course you ask a Republican and he'll tell you everything is great and wonderfull and the president is doing a great job, and it would be the other way around if a Democrat was in office (Democrats would think everythings great ect) The government is no longer "For the people by the people" it's for SOME people by whichever political partie is in office. 

I lost a brother and two cousines in this war so it's a very touchy subject with me, so i'm going to leave it at that before I get myself in trouble. 


Hope you all have a merry christmas and the new year brings lots of joy and big fish  

Tight Lines


Tim


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## addict (Apr 26, 2003)

I'm not for justice or equity, I'm after revenge. 
I'm neither republican nor democrat.

What burns me is this:

Why the f*** didn't we on 9/12/03 put a bullet in Bin Laden's head? You mean to tell me that CNN or BBC has better intelligence than the number one country in the world? Nobody would have said a damn thing to us when we had the world's sentiment on our side. We should have used that to our advantage. 

Why didn't we bomb the sh*t out of that wedding in Afghanistan where many top terrorists were present? Especially Bin Ladden. In case anyone missed it, Bin Ladden's son or daughter married the daughter or son of his right hand man during the Afghan campaign. Everyone on that list was a terrorist VIP. Once again if it was on the news, how could we have not known about it?

Instead, our leader and his advisors decided on our current course of action. A *major * land campaign on a foreign land rather than a surgical strike into the hearts of the most important terrorists.


Resources invested,
Results attained,
Public opinion - domestic and int'l

I just think our tax dollars (ONLY billions) could be used much more effectively to get the job done. Like a long range sharpshooter with a single round ($5?). Crosshairs on a few select targets.

Bin Ladden and his crew took out thousands of our people, isn't it time we stop fu**ing around and get this guy and his crew? WITHOUT spending billions and sending our people overseas again? 

dammit - haven't we learned anytihng from 'Nam, Korea, or our own Revolutionary war? You can't fight guerillas with tanks or bombs...you'd think we learned something by now.


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## addict (Apr 26, 2003)

Tim,

My deepest condolences for your losses and I am sorry if this thread re-opened old wounds.

I cannot express the gratitude I have for the service personnel who sacrifice their lives so that we may live our lives the only way we know............. free.

Thank you


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## sharkbite (Jun 8, 2001)

No need to be sorry. I'm not mad or upset that it happend, I'm pissed because it didn't have to happen. As you've said, they could have sent snipers in and killed the bastards and it would be done and over with, no billions to spend rebuilding the countries, very few civilian casualties if any at all. They could have setup a new government and be done with it. but IMHO with Iraq, GWB has a different agenda than what he's leading everyone to believe. How much money does he stand to gain from the oil fields in Iraq? You Republicans can chime in any time and bash my theory all you want but untill there's proof of what exactly we're doing there and his story dosen't change every week, that's what i'm sticking with. 

Tight Lines


Tim


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## Manayunk Jake (Oct 3, 2001)

Greetings All!

Plenty of good healthy debate flying back and forth here, with everyone remaining civil on a subject that obviously brings out deep emotions.

Let me pose this question: If bin Laden is Saudi Arabian, and seven out of nine confirmed 9-11 terrorists were Saudi Arabian, then why didn't we invade Saudi Arabia?

Just another quickie: Does anybody have a picture of bin Laden and Hussein shaking hands? (Please don't send copies of the Rumsfeld picture with Hussein's head pasted onto it!!)

Yo Kajun! You state that George H.W.'s hands were tied by the UN. It was the Saudis that said no to pursuing the Iraqi forces straight to Baghdad. George H W Bush could have gone it alone, but he KNEW (read his memoirs) that the invasion and occupation of Iraq without multilateral backing would be catastrophic for the United States. Ever wonder why father and son are rarely seen together?

Oh, to answer your question Thrifty Angler ("Where in the world is the vice pres? Hasn't he gotten the word yet that it's now safe to come out of his bunker?") Sorry Thrifty, he's counting those Haliburton bucks, and may not be seen for quite some time!

Harry S Truman (anyone have an argument with him?) made war profiteering a crime. Let's hope G.W. keeps those cowboy boots of his extra clean... He doesn't look like he'd last long doing time! 

Yo Smoothbore54, stop biting that tounge and set it free!

And for god's sake, will the paranoid republicans stop trying to make this a democratic and/or election issue! A lot of democrats on the hill had to vote yes for G.W. to get the go ahead to start this fiasco, and to keep funding it... Don't confuse the issue with politics. And please don't intertwine speaking out against the president with "unamerican activity." J. Edgar Hoover is dead, and even the staunchest republican will tell you McCarthyism wasn't the answer to America's problems in the 1950's!

All I want for Christmas is peace on Earth, and two weeks in the sun on a shark infested beach!

Happy Holidays to all members of the Pierandsurf Family!!


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## sharkbite (Jun 8, 2001)

> the American citizenry on the whole understood our need to be in the Middle East and supported our Commander


Sure we all understood the need to be in the "Middle East". We all understood the attack on Afghanistan and backed the President nearly 100%. We're all still here waiting for the answer as to why we went into Iraq, and not just an answer thrown out there that sounds good like the WMD theory or any of the many other theories that have been used to justify this war which they have no proof of. The American people deserve to know what their husbands, wives, mothers, daughters, sons, and brothers are dieing for. 

now JimiDaBeachBumm the statement of yours quoted above, was that to say the American public understood why we invaded Iraq? If you have the answer i'm sure everyone would like to know why.

Tight Lines


Tim


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## Delboy (Dec 7, 2003)

As a Brit who's been in the states 19 years i can say from feedback from relatives back home that the media is biased against it and most people in the UK actually support the war.
However the sell we got about WMD is bogus. 
Of course it's about power, oil and the rise of radical fundemental muslims and stopping them in that order.
The regime in Saudi Arabia is about to go down the toilet and the radicals are poised to take cover. If they do, guess what ? our oil supply and prosperity and our way of wife will taken a serious hit. 
Can we afford to let that happen ? Even the most ardent anti war person would be raising hell if they had to pay $10 a gallon.
So how do we get a PERMANENT presence in the middle east and protect our oil supply, we wack someone we already have a beef with, IRAQ !
From there we are close to the real enemy , the radical mus being funded covertly by the saudi's. 
Do you want your daughter to have to walk down the street with a bag over her head , never be able to go school and to be sold like a peice of property ?
As father of two daughters i don't. 
Of course the French, Germans and Russians are against it ,they are our rivals who would like nothing better than to see the Anglo Americans fall flat on there face, so they can step in.
Bush had to do it , We tried pacifing and doing nothing and we got 911. 
To quote a recent british talk show if you had to go into a bar fight would you want an American at your side or a cheese eating frenchman ?


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## Thrifty Angler (May 5, 2002)

Sounds to me like Jr was trying to score points with Senior. The "no one threatens my dad and gets away with it" theory. 

Seems Sr's focus was definitely not on the state of the US economy. Ignoring the economy and general well being of this country seems to be a trait that's passed from one generation to the next. That lack of focus, or should I say "ignoring of the facts" is what could cost him a second term. Will history repeat itself in the upcoming election? Time will tell.

That open wallet that keeps being extended is like the gift that keeps on giving. Cause that sure as heck is what's happening now and will continue to for quite some time. Will we be paid back for the monetary expenditure for the war with profits from Iraq oil? Sure hope so. Until then, seems the investing will continue for a while longer yet. 

As stated earlier.......the "found" money that has been spent on this war to date could have gone a long way in assisting the people right here at home. Investing in children's education, a better quality of life for our senior citizens, as well as some type of "accessible to all" health care program............are just a few areas that need immediate attention. For investing in these......many Americans would indeed be thankful.

BTW: Have we been thanked yet for invading Iraq? If so, by who?


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## Kajun (Jul 13, 2003)

"Yo Kajun! You state that George H.W.'s hands were tied by the UN. It was the Saudis that said no to pursuing the Iraqi forces straight to Baghdad. George H W Bush could have gone it alone, but he KNEW (read his memoirs) that the invasion and occupation of Iraq without multilateral backing would be catastrophic for the United States. Ever wonder why father and son are rarely seen together?"



George Sr. had his hands tied behind his back by the UN resolution that stated we only expel the iraqi forces from kuwait...it did not say to go to baghdad and take out saddam...it was a clear cut resolution to free kuwait and thats it...the mission that we set out to do was accomplished. however if we would have given the UN the finger like we just did  and took care of saddam the first time we wouldnt be having to sweep up now. i'm glad we are finally doing what the USA wants to do instead of listening to world opinion, atleast we now know who our friends really are.


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## oldsalt (May 6, 2003)

Lets face it war is good for the economy, puts a lot of people to work. Look at the market! Just takes away from our GIVE AWAY progrems. Oh Well!! :jawdrop:


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## Manayunk Jake (Oct 3, 2001)

Greetings oldsalt!

That use to be the rule when the United States was heavily into manufacturing. Most of those jobs have been shipped overseas. Again, the facts show that more Americans are out of work right now then any other time in American history than the Great Depression. If you add up all the jobs lost during presidential administrations from FDR through "Bubba" Clinton, you still come out short of the jobs lost during George W.'s three years at the helm. The only people making money off of this war are the same fat cats in the upper five percent that got the big tax breaks (and promptly kicked half of THAT money back to George W's 2004 war chest.


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## Kajun (Jul 13, 2003)

lol wow..jake where do you get these "facts"?


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## Manayunk Jake (Oct 3, 2001)

Greetings Delboy!

A voice of reason from across the pond! I agree with you 100 per cent about the House of Faud. Its a little known (or more likely ignored) fact that Hussein attacked Saudi Arabia before pouncing on little Kuwait. Saudi Arabia was able to repel the attack. And yes, Saudi Arabia will most likely go fundamentalist when the royal family loses power, much the same way that the United States swings back and forth between liberal and conservative idealogies.

I'll take your word that the war is more popular in Great Britain than depicted (although the massive demonstrations in the U.K. during George W.'s recent visit indicates that the popularity is not universal.) Whether the fundamentalists would play havoc with oil prices is debatable -- even the most archaic of governments needs revenue, and pricing oneself out of the market isn't feasible to any radical (think back to the early days of Iran under the Ayatollah Khomeni.)

But I'd be willing to bet a day at England's best carp syndicate waters that sixty percent of Brits are NOT convinced that the coalition is chasing terrorists and searching for WMDs. And you can thank the "biased" U.K. news for that!

I find it amazing that the same drunken yahoos that proudly wore tee shirts proclaiming "Nuke Them All -- Take The Oil" twenty years ago now have some strange need for a "higher moral calling" to slaughter women and children to save the wells.


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## Manayunk Jake (Oct 3, 2001)

Greetings kajun!

Try: 

http://www.aflcio.org/yourjobeconomy/jobs/

Let me know if you need sources for anything else I've posted, whether under this topic or any other.


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## DOVERPOWER (Jun 26, 2000)

Here is some more Democratic Propaganda


http://www.buzzflash.com/areyoubetteroff/

By the way I need that oil I drive a Ford Expedition!!

http://www.theonion.com/3948/news1.html

Above is a link about the poor
*adult languge content*


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## Kajun (Jul 13, 2003)

AFL-CIO... a union propaganda site...that is not what i would ever base my facts from or any other democratic propaganda sites.....but i guess if you believe these sites i can see where you are getting your info from...

i'm not disputing the fact that unemployment has been bad..that is a fact...but to say that bush is the cause is not...bush came into office in 2001... a few months later 9-11... that is what caused our economy to crash like it did and its taken this long to finally get it kick started again... the economy will fluctuate from time to time that is fact also...its going to happen no matter who is in office...its the luck of the draw.. but the things that are going on in the world these days are much more important than unemployment rates ....i'd much rather have a strong president who will take no crap off of anyone and do whatever is necessary to protect our country than one that is a weak and lets terrorist and other countries dictate our future and security.

as far as the rest of your "facts"....if they are from sources like what you just provided...i'll pass...i guess i need to realize that when a democrat or liberal is searching for and believing any speculations,conspiracys or propaganda "facts" that they cant be made to see clearly or the truth....and i'm sure you can say that about republicans also.....with that said i guess we can just agree to disagree...see ya at the polls


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## sharkbite (Jun 8, 2001)

Kajun: Then i guess you would base your facts on republican propaganda sites  


Here are the FACTS like 'em or not. 

Civilian Labor Force Level January 2001- 143797K

Employment Level January 2001- 137846K

Unemployment Level January 2001- 5951K

Unemployment Rate January 2001- 4.1%


Civilian Labor Force Level November 2003- 147277k

Employment Level November 2003- 138603k

Unemployment Level November 2003- 8674K

Unemployment Rate November 2003- 5.9%

So in the past almost three years, there was a gain of 3480K jobs and 757K more Employed. However, there was a gain of 2723K in Unemployment which raised the rate 1.8%. 

Which indeed shows that more americans are out of work. 

Lets face it, the good jobs are going overseas, and the jobs that have been created and low paying or lower then what the unemployed people were making before hand so they are having to take up multiple jobs (which would be the increase in the employment level yet also allow an increase in unemployment).

http://www.techsunite.org/news/techind/031126_att.cfm

Now those are the FACTS, from the Department of Labor http://www.bls.gov/data/ need anymore "FACTS"?

One thing I forgot to address:



> but the things that are going on in the world these days are much more important than unemployment rates ....i'd much rather have a strong president who will take no crap off of anyone and do whatever is necessary to protect our country than one that is a weak and lets terrorist and other countries dictate our future and security.


So what you're saying is you wouldn't care if you didn't have or couldn't find a job because they were all going overseas, or the only job you could find was a low paying and you had to work two jobs in order to just barely get by? As long as we're safe from other countries, in our homes that you wouldn't be able to afford and there's a possablity of food and power, heat, water to take a shower. Or are you saying you just really don't care about the unemployed people, you don't have to deal with 'em, let them deal with their own problems. They can't get a job, big deal, as long as I have money screw the rest of 'em right? 

Tight Lines


Tim


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## Kajun (Jul 13, 2003)

Kajun said:


> *i'm not disputing the fact that unemployment has been bad..*



but the dow just hit 10,000 ..the economy is on the upswing and unemployment will soon be on the downswing..things take time to adjust....i know that is terrible news to democrats on election year lol ..but that is what is happening right now....you cant use ...." it's the economy stupid" anymore...find something new and original.


"So what you're saying is you wouldn't care if you didn't have or couldn't find a job because they were all going overseas, or the only job you could find was a low paying and you had to work two jobs in order to just barely get by? As long as we're safe from other countries"

yes..that is exactly what i'm saying....when your dead from a terrorist blowing you and your family up or having a nuke bomb detonated close by and your kids are suffering from severe radiation poisoning...i dont think you will be caring about if you have enough money to pay your power bill.

i've been poor all my life so you cant tell me about living without...i've also been around the world twice and seen places that would make you want to kiss the ground you walk on here in the USA and thank your creator for allowing you to be born in this land...most americans dont realize just how good you have it here and the little things that we complain about are really meaningless...especailly jobs. there are plenty of jobs out there if you are unemployed...first you have to ask yourself..did i prepare myself for this?..did i get enough education or training, or was i too lazy? did i save money? is my pride too important that i wont take a lower paying job to support myself during a slump? am i just a lazy p.o.s. who wants to collect a check and cry "woe is me"?am i too good to get my hands dirty to feed my family?

in these times the correct saying is "it's NOT the economy stupid"


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## Kajun (Jul 13, 2003)

Kajun said:


> *
> as far as iraq...this is something that should have been done in 91'..so dont whine and cry about it ...we are just finishing a job that was started by the 1st bush *



bush #2 has just finished it...saddam has been captured!


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## can't fish today (Oct 8, 2003)

Interesting reading. I guess as adults we have little chance of changing or even influencing eatch other's opinions. 

I'm a life long registered democrat. And I think what we're really still talking about is hanging chads. I find that most modern political conversations are rooted there Perhaps if the chads were hanging the other way, Gore could have created more wonderful things like this internet stuff.


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## sand flea (Oct 24, 1999)

addict said:


> *Why the f*** didn't we on 9/12/03 put a bullet in Bin Laden's head? You mean to tell me that CNN or BBC has better intelligence than the number one country in the world? Nobody would have said a damn thing to us when we had the world's sentiment on our side. We should have used that to our advantage. *


Do you really think it's that simple? Send in a sniper and be done with it? Look at all the people on this country's most wanted lists that are _in this country_. How much harder do you think it is to find someone in a place like Afghanistan? (Then again, I think OBL is dead and has been since Dec. of 2001, but that's another thread).

In the end, the real impact of this war in Iraq may be more about showing that Afghanistan wasn't a fluke and that we're done putting up with the insanity and violence that come out of the Middle East. I blame presidents all the way back to Reagan for not standing up to these people and making them think they can strike us and get away with it. Remember Beirut in '82 when all those Marines were killed? What did Reagan do? Cut and run. And after '91 when we had Saddam on the run? Cut and run. And on Clinton's watch after the Cole bombing, Mogadishu and the first WTC bombings? Cut and run.

No wonder these people thought they could smack us around.

I heard a Syrian journalist on the radio this morning. He told the interviewer that the predominant feeling across the Arab world now is, "The U.S. isn't kidding anymore." If for no other reason than these groups might think twice about trying to slaughter us, I think we did the right thing.

And remember, there's an election coming up shortly. Pulling that lever means more than all these online arguments combined. If you think Dean would make a better president, then cast that vote.


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## Manayunk Jake (Oct 3, 2001)

Greetings kajun!

So much ammunition, where do I begin?

The AFL-CIO did not pull those figures out of thin air. If you had read past the header on the site you would have seen that these are the same figures used to help determine the gross national product, the cost-of-living index, and a variety of other indicators of the health of the economy.

The Dow broke 1000? The stock market has been the least relevant economic indicator in the last three decades. The stock market is driven on speculation, not fact.

Anyway, as you pointed out, the boogie man has been captured. Its OK though, because there will be another boogie man tomorrow. (And don't forget, we still haven't caught bin Laden, the reigning king of the boogie men!) Now everyone can leave Iraq to Haliburton, and the troops will be home by Christmas!

Terrorists worldwide will lay down their arms, because their "leader" has been captured! Leader of what? He was a third rate dictator created by the United States... Even the military admits that Hussein had little to do with insurgent activities in Iraq. The Iraqis are a culture ten times older than the U.S.A. Lets all pray that the commander-in-chief remembers to secure his supply lines before rushing headlong into Syria.

Finally, please drop the "I grew up poor" battlecry. I grew up in a three room half-house with five other family members (six when my grandmother had trouble making ends meet.) Ever eaten oatmeal for dinner? Ever have to replace the cardboard in your shoes because the holes in the soles let the rain in again? It would be great if these anecdotes were simply that: memories that left us thanking our good fortune. But too many Americans are facing poverty day in an day out in the 21st century, and the number is growing. And categorizing the poor as lazy, uneducated, pieces of shit is another indicator -- an indicator of where your mindset is.

Please have a happy holiday season, and thank whatever god created you that you are you. The world would certainly be a lesser place without you! May the new year bring you more and bigger fish.

Health, wealth, and happiness to all!


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## Manayunk Jake (Oct 3, 2001)

> I'm a life long registered democrat. And I think what we're really still talking about is hanging chads.





> And remember, there's an election coming up shortly. Pulling that lever means more than all these online arguments combined. If you think Dean would make a better president, then cast that vote.


The war in Iraq had nothing to do with political aspirations. The only thing the U.S.A. has proven to terrorists is that we will grab any convenient target when we're frustrated by the real culprits. 



> In the end, the real impact of this war in Iraq may be more about showing that Afghanistan wasn't a fluke and that we're done putting up with the insanity and violence that come out of the Middle East.


I think the Romans said the same thing about Jesus Christ...

Is insanity and violence confined to the Middle East? Coca Cola has a bottling plant in Columbia. The last eight union presidents were abducted and killed. Try being a Buhdist in Communist China, or demanding clean drinking water in eastern Africa. Terrorism has been around for a long time. When you have nothing else, it is the only way to advance your cause. The U.S.A. was blessed not by virtue of our military might, but because struggling people could look to us for hope, if not outright help. We were a moral nation, we wore the white hat. America has left the world down, and many groups will wage war on the conglomerate tyrant. Its a matter of economics, not politics. America is the master of economic imperialism, and that makes all Americans, whether abroad or at home, potential targets.

Give me a fish and I eat for a day; Teach me to fish and I eat for a lifetime.


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## addict (Apr 26, 2003)

sand flea,



> Do you really think it's that simple? Send in a sniper and be done with it?


HELL YES!

I just shake my head when I see our elected officials take a course of action which has been historically proven to be fruitless. To launch a major land campaign against guerilla/terrorist forces on foreign soil......when was the last time that scenario worked out for any nation?

I just think that based on history, we must have a logical approach to handling this problem. Sending in massive #s of our troops into foreign lands is NOT the way to solve this problem.

I am not saying that I am Mr. Know-it-all by any means. I certainly do not have all the answers. I am simply making a point about our current plan in place. I'm a firm believer in learning from our mistakes (and other nations) in history.

It seems we are still playing the game with rules based on conventional human morality. The terrorists are playing under their own rules. I say it's time we play the game with those rules as well. They took down the WTC and hit the Pentagon (THE FRIGGIN' PENTAGON!) why aren't we just surgically hitting everything that smells terrorist?

As I said earlier, I just think that we needed to act much faster while we had the world's sentiment on our side. I'd go as far as saying that even some of the countries known to help terrorists (Syria, Leb, Iran etc) would have had a difficlut time protecting anyone during that time.


well...at least we got Saddam


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## Manayunk Jake (Oct 3, 2001)

Greetings addict!

Cheer up -- The U.S. is sending teams to Israel to learn modern anti-terrorist tactics! Of course, last I heard Israel is building some kind of big wall along the western bank...

I have to give Israel their due. They've survived in an extremely hostile environment since day 1, albeit with lots of U.S. assistance. Their "eye-for-an-eye" policy has served them well until most recently. Again, in a war of attrition, nobody wins in the end.


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## Kajun (Jul 13, 2003)

i've said my opinions.. there is no debating with someone that is so far to the left that he's almost a canadian


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## sand flea (Oct 24, 1999)

Ouch!

At least you didn't say French! (kidding guys, kidding) All in good fun.


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## Cdog (Mar 18, 2002)

*LOL*

Its not even Jan. yet.


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## shaggy (Jun 18, 2003)

Okay, manufacturing jobs as Jack Welch (GE) stated were leaving the US in the early to mid nineties, and I won't say who was president then. Welch realized that due to the labor costs of manufacturing, to be competitive and more profitable, GE would have to become more service oriented. UNions have always, and probably always will be pro democratic, such is life, but unions are also responsible for the non-competitve nature in the manufacturing sector, thus jobs lost to overseas labor. Health care costs rise (many times, more than companies rasied costs to union labor), but there does come a time when each person must penny up his share, and if that means "more" cost out of your check, so be it. The Union hardline, and lack of fairness with costs, leave companies no choice but to go overseas for their manufactuing needs.

Look at the consequences of not bending, lost jobs.

AS for the Iraqi think all about oil, I doubt it. How bout the mass graves found that were the result of the torture and execution of the Iraqi people thanks to sodamn insane?

For better or worse, and probably much to the dismay of many a democrat, and many a union member, sodamn has been captured, and would pretty much seal a Bush re-election (which was probably going to happen anyhow, or hilary would have run for the job, and slick willie could have become the nation's first, first man), and a pop in tomorrows markets.

I like how when GW went to Iraq, photo op, but hitlary does the same and the press thinks it is fantastic.

I'm for right to work, fair pay and the Preident, Commander in Chief and our TROOPS.

Sorry, I'm done.

God bless America.

Have Jeep will travel.


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## shaggy (Jun 18, 2003)

> We were a moral nation, we wore the white hat.


Yes, and apparently Kennedy and clinton were two of our most "moral" of people, Get real, it starts at the top, and wether you like it or not, GW has more morals than John and Bill combined. That said, you should be glad.

Yeah, I know about his past, and his daughters, but why didn't you cast your stones whe clinton and gores past were there with the ability to cast?

What party had the biggest role in making it illegal and a crime to spank their children? Who was top dog when we had to take "One nation under God" out of the (Pledge of Allegience), school prayer. Yopu are right, at one time we did have morals and principles, but the government of the past has taken quite a few away.

God bless and keep.

Have Jeep will travel.


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## DOVERPOWER (Jun 26, 2000)

We are blessed
http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/fiore/2003/04/398_01.swf


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## Smoothbore54 (Jun 8, 2003)

Manayunk Jake said:


> *Greetings kajun!
> 
> Try:
> 
> ...


*First it was the BBC and NOW an AFL - CIO website* 

Have You got any more of those *Accurate and Unbiased* sources ????

*Just keep talkin' Jake, You're making My points better than I can.*


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## Manayunk Jake (Oct 3, 2001)

Greetings All!



> i've said my opinions.. there is no debating with someone that is so far to the left that he's almost a canadian





> What party had the biggest role in making it illegal and a crime to spank their children? Who was top dog when we had to take "One nation under God" out of the (Pledge of Allegience), school prayer. Yopu are right, at one time we did have morals and principles, but the government of the past has taken quite a few away.


Greeting All!

You need facts to win a debate. When you present your opinions as facts, you are preaching, not debating. And when you label someone without ever having met them, you are stereotyping.

I 've read and reread my posts, and I can't find a single reference blaming the republican party for Iraq or any other issue I raised. I do find it interesting that those without facts have taken it upon themselves to repeatedly turn this into a political forum.

I am aware of no law that prohibits a parent from spanking his child. True, you can't horsewhip them, lock them in sheds for days, weeks, or months without food and water, or knock their teeth out with a brick. If this takes all the fun out of parenting for you, then perhaps parenting is not your strong suit.

As for "One nation under God", this was never part of the original Pledge of Allegience (those damn facts again!) And prayer has no place in public schools (seperation of church and state -- thank those leftist radical founding fathers!) Many schools allow for a moment of silence. But when the school (under state supervision) dictates which god(s) you can pray to -- that's when problems arise.

Unions brought about the downfall of American manufacturing? During the 1980s every major union made concessions (givebacks) to corporate America in order to help weather hard times. Union organizers fought and died for such radical ideas as the forty hour workweek, the eight hour workday, the minimum wage, paid vacations and holidays, and equity in the workplace. American manufacturing doomed itself when the captains of industry abandoned craftsmanship for the creation of wealth. It must be hard for a corporate executive making millions of dollars a year to decide to ship jobs overseas to countries where children earn 18 cents/hour. The cost of labor is not always measured in dollars. Makes you wonder how union shops manage to stay in business?

I am truly amazed at the evolutionary path of this thread (please, no creationist rebuttals) This is my final post -- I'll sit back and bite my tounge as I'm sure many others are doing, and have done from the beginning. Hopefully we can all get back to the business of catching fish. Anyone else who feels the need to change my beliefs, call me unamerican, or just cuss me out, can email me at [email protected]

Hopefully we'll be able to channel some of this pent-up energy into pursuing causes under the Fishing Issues forum....


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## sand flea (Oct 24, 1999)

I'm not trying to be overbearing here, but I think this thread needs to go to bed. I have a feeling this is going to get nastier.

Let's take these conversations over to e-mail and PMs.

Back to the fishing!


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