# Casting vs Spinning - Heavy



## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

Casting vs. Spinning – Heavy

I did some more testing this afternoon, this time with 8oz and a Hatteras style cast.

Rod - 13’ AFAW Beach

Reels – Shimano Power Aero Spinning reel.

Abu 6500 blue yonder 
Abu 6500 mag elite

Started off with the spinner, throwing two Hatteras casts with 8oz and one groundcast with a 150 gram tourney sinker. 

I threw the Blue Yonder for one Hatteras cast and then switched to the Mag Elite for one Hatteras and one groundcast.

Results,

Spinner 
Cast #1, 8 oz hatteras style – 471’
Cast #2 – 8 oz hatteras style - 482’
Cast #3 150 gram, groundcast – 556’ 

Casting 
Cast #1, 8 oz hatteras style – 497’
Cast #2 – 8 oz hatteras style -508’’
Cast #3 150 gram, groundcast – 585’

I lost a bit of skin on the last cast when I went OTG and didn’t bother to put on a thumby… ouch…lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOJpW9vusik&feature=channel_page

It’s been fun putting these rods and reels through the paces over the past couple of days. My impressions are pretty much what I thought going in. I like the light weight and balance that the casting reel provides and I just LOVE the way it feels but those are personal preferences. I have to say that the casting performance of the spinner did surprise me. It was closer to the casting reel(s) than I expected it to be.

Bottom line, use what you like and are comfortable with. Just don’t sell yourself short by not keeping an open mind. You may find you like it on the other side. 

Hope you guys enjoyed this.

Tommy


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## jlentz (Sep 11, 2005)

Thats awesome Tommy, thanks for taking the time and posting the results.
I am kind of surprised at the distance you got on the spinner, very close to the conventional, which I believe you are more used to throwing. Do you think it puts to rest the question of which throws further? probably not for some people. I think the results show that a modern spinner set up with braid for fishing can throw pretty competitively with a conventional. I would agree with you on the comfort and control of a conventional. Very interesting indeed.

John


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## surfchunker (Apr 10, 2006)

*Thanks Tommy*

so guess it boils down to ... throw what feels good to you ....


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## eric (Oct 24, 2007)

dont forget.. the price differences..


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## 9 rock (Nov 30, 2008)

Its a little closer than I thought with a stock reel . sure would like to see the hod rod come out of the garage for a few burn outs. 

after reading sgt comments on the other test post this was with 30lb braid I am shure a few feet could also be pick up on the spinner also with 20 lb checks and balances

I do agree with tommy on the balance and the feel of the convetional . I started off a spinner guy and switched to coventionals about 20 years ago. but then the choice of spinners was not as good as today and braid was just starting to become popular . I may have never switched if I had the equiptment and line they have today .I wont be switching back but I may sneek on into the rod holder at night 

9rock


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## Danman (Dec 13, 2007)

Thanks Tommy....It seems there shouldn't be much of a casting distance for an average surf caster....I would like to try the conventional this year due the lightness of the reel... 

It is so confusing reading about the brakes, bearings etc on the casting reel though....oh yes then the free spool, low profile,etc 

Thanks again..:fishing:


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## sprtsracer (Apr 27, 2005)

OK...practically speaking...FOR FISHING!

Which is easier to use? For instance, I personally think it's easier to use a spinner for FISHING with less chance of a "foul up". If you are fishing, you can toss it with no "birds nests" worries. For the sheer "fun factor", I have fun with the conventionals because it's more fun to "toy" with them, tune them, customize them, mag them, etc. Something you can't do with the spinners. I don't cast competively, so spinners are more practical for fishing...but conventionals are more fun to play with. They are more of a challenge, and therefore, you have more satisfaction when you "master" them and are successful with them. I hope that makes sense.


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## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

sprtsracer said:


> OK...practically speaking...FOR FISHING!
> 
> Which is easier to use? For instance, I personally think it's easier to use a spinner for FISHING with less chance of a "foul up". If you are fishing, you can toss it with no "birds nests" worries. For the sheer "fun factor", I have fun with the conventionals because it's more fun to "toy" with them, tune them, customize them, mag them, etc. Something you can't do with the spinners. I don't cast competively, so spinners are more practical for fishing...but conventionals are more fun to play with. They are more of a challenge, and therefore, you have more satisfaction when you "master" them and are successful with them. I hope that makes sense.


That is a hard one to answer. For me the shear difference in size and weight make the casting a more balanced setup. There is a steeper learning curve on the casting, but once you've got it then it's really not an issue.

It really boils down to what you like and dislike. What is practical for one may not be practical for another.

Tommy


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## jimmy z (Nov 5, 2006)

I enjoyed it. Thank you, my friend.


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## Danman (Dec 13, 2007)

As always....good advice from the pro's and novice..


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## ReelinRod (May 29, 2003)

As far as the topic of this and the other "test" threads go . . . 

I am still mentally processing these distances and to be honest, asking myself some questions and rethinking some of my positions.

Too many things are flying through my head and right now I'm asking if I haven't been making a mistake thinking that *my* performance with these reels can be used as any sort of benchmark or baseline for what "designed for distance fishing" spinning equipment is generally capable of.

To give some background, an earlier tackle test by Tommy helped me solidify my belief that "designed for distance fishing" spinning equipment is capable of performance *exceeding* that of fishing appropriate conventional tackle. Back in April of 2006 Tommy tested the HDX against a lami 1502 and a Zippy Straight8, the results are *posted on the Breakaway board* (I thought they were posted here but I couldn't find the thread). 

Soooo, reading those numbers and knowing what distances *I throw* I drew some conclusions and so began my arguments about the different performance of the tackle types (but not till now mentioning what I used for my basic "data").

Tommy's results with the HDX using a 6500 mag elite mounted high reel back in '06 fall pretty much right in line with the numbers with the Beach in this thread now. 

Now seeing these -high reel - 15lb test - conventional on a +/-13ft fishing rod- distances being thrown by Tommy _remain so constant_ with the test before across a few different rods, gives one a high degree of confidence that *those* ranges represent benchmarks of conventional fishing tackle's capabilities (450 - 510 8oz Hatteras / 550 - 600 150/6oz OTG).

Now I must process Tommy's spinner numbers, which I must admit my surprise that they are not *much* longer. 

Those numbers lead my mind to challenges of my premises that I'd rather not entertain right now (but I will throw out there for honesty's sake and for feedback):

*(1)* Much of my argument's support (in my mind) has been my belief that *I* am *not*_ that_ remarkable a caster. Among the guys I fish with nearly every week there are dozens that can throw spinning tackle as far if not further than me. I never considered myself a big hitter, just a "_smash the snot out of it_" guy.

*(2)*Since I always considered myself a "_smash the snot out of it_" guy I never paid attention to whether there was a specific spinner casting technique that, just like conventional reels takes some practice (perhaps years?) to achieve the bigger numbers. Can that be a possibility? I only ask because of my shock at what Tommy, a caster of unequaled skill and power threw with the spinner; I really, really expected his spinner numbers to be biggger. 

To put it in plain, unfiltered words, In my mind it is inexplicable that I should be able to equal or better Tommy's spinner casts. His power and highly refined technique should win out no matter what. I'm just saying this to be completely upfront about where I'm at with the results and to further the discussion; it certainly is not intended to "cast" aspersions on Tommy and the tests he did. 

Call me obstinate, difficult or whatever you like; as it stands now, *for me,* I think this test exposes more variables than it solidifies.  opcorn:.

Thanks again Tommy for doing these tests














and putting yourself in a position of scrutiny. You are a true Champion and I hope you don't take my defense of my premises personally.


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## Cdog (Mar 18, 2002)

Sgt_Slough said:


> As far as the topic of this and the other "test" threads go . . .
> 
> I am still mentally processing these distances and to be honest, asking myself some questions and rethinking some of my positions.
> 
> ...


Sarge, if you go back to the original "heated" thread where I posted my numbers I also stated I was just a fisherman not a distance caster.

What I said there, I think you are starting to realize.

Not just anyone can grab a spinner and put up numbers like you do and hence the debunking of spinners cast as far as conv for the avg person.(Once you get over the learning curve of casting conv of coarse.)

BTW, after re-reading this I hope it comes out as it was meant, a compliment to your casting abilities.


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## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

Sarge,

No offence at all taken.

I chose the Hatteras cast for one reason. It is the cast that I use 75% of the time to fish with. The cast has limitations, for me on an average day with a "heaver" and 8oz that limit is around 500-550'. My all time PB with a heaver and 8oz is just over 600 measured. I was on form and had a tailwind....  . Yesterday the wind was quartering from behind, almost cross at around 8 mph. Not ideal but not bad either. 

For the limited number of casts, I was right where I expected to be. I intentionally chose reels that were bone stock, no tweaking or tuning for distance to give an unfair advantage to the casting setup. With minor tuning (sideplate and time spent balancing) I could probably tweak another 50' out of the casting reel.

If the field would have permitted it I would have thrown more OTG. The grass was course and the sinker was hanging up. Lost a layer of skin on the last cast with the 6500 ...  My expectation would be well into the 600's with both the spinning and the casting with a proper groundcast and a little tailwind. With a tweaked tourney reel and tourney legal line I could add 100' to the casting setup.

Am I a top level tournament spinning caster?? To be honest probably not. But then again I was not using an all out tourney cast for the testing either and I was smacking them both pretty hard...  

Just a few facts about the day and the casting. And once again, no offence taken. 

Tommy


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## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

Having re-read Sarges post (some pretty big words in there...lol) I've got a couple more comments.

#1 - Sarge, don't sell yourself short. You are a big strong guy that can really smash the %$*&% out of a rod. I'm not so sure that ther are many guys on the beach that can outcast you. 

#2 - Keep in mind that these tests were performed using a hatteras style beach cast. One more test that I would like to do would be the 13'AFAW Beach and a 150 or 175 gram sinker. I think there is more there than the 6nbait was able to deliver. 

#3 is a question. How far can you chunk 8 oz with a hatteras cast?? 



Tommy


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## fish bucket (Dec 5, 2002)

i have been following this thread with great interest and have a question for tommy.
when you threw the spinner was the drag completely locked down?
with a spinner and braid and 5oz(or more) and a hard cast,the drag can slip if not cranked down.
the slightest drag slippage will cause loss of distance.
i thought with that set up and your ability,200yds was well within range.

by the way,tommy,i love watching your casting videos testing different rods.


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## troutfishr (Nov 30, 2005)

*heavy*

Sarge, how do you measure your "fishing" distance? It just seems to me that throwing 500+ is a pretty fair shot over salt water as the air is heavier, it would tend to slow the weight would it not? Me, I love casting and cast both conv and spinners, am not competitive just love to cast even while fishing. I ask because over water visual distance is not the same as actual distance.


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## 9 rock (Nov 30, 2008)

sgt

I do think there is some learning curb for the spinner to get max distance 
I still have a couple of spinners not your long casting type but a 750 penn I think you can realy smack the rod hard right off the bat a come out of the boots cast that would be difficult to control with a convetional reel where smooth is the key
I am sure each time tommy cast that spinner he will get a little more out of it getting closer to the conventional . but I do not think if tommy wants to bring out a juiced reel that the spinner will not stay with him. 
your argument is with every day people and I think what has been proven is that yes the spinner for the everyday person will infact cast as far with braid.
few if any on the beach have tommys ability with a conventional but if some one wants to take the time to learn ,blow up many reels along the way ,there may be a few more feet to grab form a conventional in the end if the headaches are worth it. 
the fact of the matter is that it is personal preferance no more no less . some guys wear boxers some wear breifs we fish with what we like and can afford and if we are lucky we catch somthing that makes it that much better

9rock


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## dsurf (Aug 5, 2003)

Tommy, Sgt, this is absolutely intriguing food for thought and I certainly want to thank you both for this test as well as the many many hours you both have shared with us devoted to the art of distance fishing/casting. I, like Sgt, have been able to perform better (meaning better distances) with high performance spinning gear than with conventional. High performance meaning the reel, the rod and the guides properly distanced and sized.

*Tommy*, I apologize if I missed it, but for your spinning setup, what is the distance from the reel stem of the Power Aero to your gathering guide, and what size (mm) is the gathering guide, and type (hi frame or standard)? With the ultra wide spool Shimano's and the Aero wrap feature, I've found this to be critical to optimizing distance.

I'm not a tournament caster but have spent a significant amount of time in the field performing different tests. My best measured spinning cast, Hatteras style, with 8 oz., HDX rod and Shimano Aero Technium MGS 10000XSA is around 480 ft, while best with conventional is about 60' less, using either a Penn 525 mag or Abu 6500 Mag. I've performed these test multiple times over a span of several weeks, under different conditions, attempting to understand the dynamics at work. I must admit I'm unable to clearly explain the distance difference in quantifiable technical terms. I fish an equal amount with spinning and conventional, only occasionally preferring conventional because of the trigger reel seat that sits on my Fusions Mags. But if I need to get another 30-60 feet, I go to my spinning setup.

To Sgt's point, or question, I do believe one can adapt a propensity for one or the other that develops either from a subconscious 'feel' or 'confidence' one does not clearly understand or can explain. But this does not mean we stop trying.


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## ReelinRod (May 29, 2003)

Tommy said:


> I chose the Hatteras cast for one reason. It is the cast that I use 75% of the time to fish with.


For me it is even a bigger percentage because of all the crowded tournaments I fish and that I use clip-down rigs so much. It's a rare day when I get to use an OTG.



Tommy said:


> The cast has limitations, for me on an average day with a "heaver" and 8oz that limit is around 500-550'


I very, very rarely use 8oz; I use sputniks almost exclusively and a 200gm (7oz) is the heaviest I make. For the snottiest of days I do use frogs mouths up to 10 ounces but that isn't being cast for distance, just chucked to the middle of the slough and being walked with.



Tommy said:


> My expectation would be well into the 600's with both the spinning and the casting with a proper groundcast and a little tailwind.


That's certainly where I expected the spinner to be.

I did throw quite a bit today with lighter weights. I threw the 125gm 4 times with Hatteras casts on an AFAW Universal rung with Lowriders with a Daiwa Tournament S-5000T; (little brother of the 6000 you are using - it's really just a SS3000 Whisker with a deeper spool), the casts ranged from 160 to 167 yards (480' - 501')

I also did a bunch of 150gm OTG casts with my CTS 5-8 with the Daiwa Tournament S-5000T and one cast with my old faithful, my All Star 1507 and Daiwa Basia. Both reels had 20lb braid running line and 80lb braid casting leader. All casts fell between 222 and 225 yards (666ft - 675ft).



Tommy said:


> I'm not so sure that ther are many guys on the beach that can outcast you.


That's the thing Tommy, there are a lot of guys (and girls) up here who can put a hurtin on a rod. The Womens Surf Fishing Club of NJ (est. 1952) has some incredible casters (all using spinners) and as I said before, I know dozens of guys that can cast as far or further than me (on spinners). 

At practice today 3 spinner guys were over 600 with the 150gm - me, Rich H @640' and fish bucket @608' . . . (Rich's was with a high reel S-6000T, with .31 mono on a 13'2" Zziplex Synchro OTG)



Tommy said:


> How far can you chunk 8 oz with a hatteras cast??


Like I said above, I never use them fishing and cast them for "fun" even less. 

The Charlotte Castamuck held in '05 intrigued me and I copied the rig and the sim-bait and tried it out and cast over 400 feet. I have thrown 8oz pyramids for measure a couple times in the past and I have cast over 500' but that was an OTG cast. . . For Hatteras casts I would comfortably say my average would be 450 to 475, it just isn't something I do (or have done) with regularity . . .

I did a couple 8oz Hatteras casts today with borrowed sinkers and it just wasn't there; both were right at 440' on a 12'-6" RS1569. I tried a couple OTG and cracked them off into the woods . . . I gave up, I was out of sync, they just felt too damn heavy and I didn't want to "borrow" a third one. 

Could my distance be better if I used 8oz more? I think so; I can throw my flighted 200gm sputnik 199 yards but hey, a single ounce can make a big difference. 

I just don't use it enough to have a really hard answer and today, the lighter weights were a lot more fun.


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## fish bucket (Dec 5, 2002)

"At practice today 3 spinner guys were over 600 with the 150gm - me, Rich H @640' and fish bucket @608' ."
just a slight correction....
608' was done with 6 oz and a saltiga surf rod(braid)
208 yds(624') was done with 5 oz and an allstar 1508(braid)
oddly,i tried both rods with a spinner loaded with mono and couldn't do better than the low to mid 500's


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## ReelinRod (May 29, 2003)

troutfishr said:


> Sarge, how do you measure your "fishing" distance?


For these discussions it is more a "perfect world" type benchmark of what a particular fishing set-up can do. Only under such a controlled environment can you examine and analyze how changes in rod, guides, reel, line, spool profile, sinker profile etc affect performance. 

I spend time tweaking these things and I know what each of my set-ups cast under controlled conditions and this knowledge is directly applicable to fishing. I design and make my own long distance (clip-down) rigs and I cast them with various sim-baits for measurement. Again, I know what each of my set-ups cast and how far they cast each rig and bait I use. For as long as I've owned some of my set-ups and for the thousands of times I've cast them they are an extension of my body. 

Estimating casts over water isn't that hard when you have such familiarity with your equipment; it isn't a visual estimation, it is what your equipment tells you with feedback through the finger of how hard you hit it, hang time, line off the spool once the slack is taken up etc.

Visual estimation does come into reading the beach and choosing the structure you want to fish. If I want to fish the outside of the sandbar or fish the mouth of a cut I know what rod to use to deliver the bait type / size I need right there (or at least try, given adverse conditions) . . .



fish bucket said:


> just a slight correction....


Sorry bucket, thanks for setting the record straight.

Congrats again on the PB!


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## NJHeaver (Aug 13, 2006)

Now we will never hear the end of it from Bucket 

Congrats on the PB !!!!!


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## fish bucket (Dec 5, 2002)

no,you'll never hear the end when i finally pass you two!!


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