# Shock knots and spinners



## sand flea (Oct 24, 1999)

Has anyone else noticed that shock knots that work perfectly well on conventionals cause problems on spinners? I've noticed the spider hitch/no-name combo has a tendency to hang in the first or second guide during a cast, often leading to break-offs.

It's particularly pronounced when using 20#/50# line, but it even happens with the #17/#40 sometimes.


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## chesapeake_kid (Oct 25, 2008)

Yep Ive had that problem when I would attach my flurocarbon to braid do u know of any remedies or better knot combos to use

Chesapeake


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## Lightload (Nov 30, 2007)

The line comes off spinners in big loops. Centrifugal force throws the heavier knot far out to the side. So, on the cast, the knot section of your line is really entering the gathering guide more from the side than it is directly from the reel. The knot then gets fouled momentarily on the guide and then bad things happen.

The line comes off a conventional in a straight line (or relatively straight line) so it feeds directly into the gathering guide with no hang-ups.

I tried using a 50# mono shock leader with 20#Power Pro running line. When it worked, it worked really well but far too often I'd get break -offs as you described.

I was trying to use the mono shocker on the spinner because braid can really tear up your casting finger when throwing heavy weights. Also, I wanted the mono leader on there to carry my FF rig. Obviously it didn't work so now I use a 50# Power Pro shocker and tie in a section of 50# mono to the end that stays outside the guides when casting. Didn't solve the braid on the finger problem but the FF rig works great!


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## AtlantaKing (Jul 7, 2002)

It's a heck of a good reason to go conventional!


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## uncdub13 (Aug 9, 2003)

I usually bring a big spinning heaver as a guest rod in the summer when throwing big payloads (8 oz with 6-8 oz of bait) at night for blacktips or whatever else wants to bite. Makes it a lot easier for friends to fight fish as opposed to conventional gear. I normally run 20 lb mono main line to 60 lb shock with a bimini/no name connection. I like to trim the tag ends as close as possible and then coat with superglue. Not only does this give me peace of mind that the knot won't slip, but it gives both knots a smooth, uniform profile. I have very few problems with knots hanging in the guides during the cast. I also think it helps to keep the shock leader as short as possible.


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## dirtyhandslopez (Nov 17, 2006)

SF, I used to fish conventionals exclusively, but I used to customize the rods by replacing the many eye's with three of the biggest eyes I could get my hands on and the biggest top eye. The major problem I would encounter would be the bail arm snapping shut in mid cast causing the beloved zing-pow. This was easily remedied by removing the bail arm but leaving the roller.
Check your eye's and make 'em bigger and less of them.


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## mud (Sep 23, 2007)

shorten the shock leader a good bit and I have found this helps. On a conventional you need 5 or 6 wraps around the spool well this isnt the case for a spinner as I use 2.5-3 wraps or less and it seams to zip straight thru the eyes not having time to catch. Try it and let me know if it helps you out any.


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## Lipyourown (May 11, 2005)

I have experienced the same problems but haven't tried the glue trick. I'd say 20% of my casts were hung up for heaver type casting.

All I could come up with is bumping the running line up to 25# mono and not use a shocker...just a long bite leader. Another way is to use braid as the running line w/out a shocker. Each of these solutions are not perfect.


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## hamlet (Sep 4, 2007)

I have not had a problem with the knot snagging on the gathering guide, but i have had a problem with the shock leader snagging on the knot while the knot is still on the spool. It happens even with the tag ends trimmed as near to flush as I can get them.

I solve this by making sure as I wind the line onto the spool so that the knot lies right along the bottom, on the spool.


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## Lightload (Nov 30, 2007)

hamlet said:


> I solve this by making sure as I wind the line onto the spool so that the knot lies right along the bottom, on the spool.



Yeah, the knot has to be the last thing to come off the spool. But that only solves one part of the problem!

It isn't the only reason but the shocker knot problem on heavy spinners is one of the reasons why at around six ounces of weight, I use nothing but conventional.


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## Fireline20 (Oct 2, 2007)

*????? I am confused*

As a Spinner only Surf fisher, I have to ask why are you reeling your leader into your rod???

I mean, a 3-4 ft 60 lb leader is really all you need and you should have that much (maybe more) hanging out of the rod to add to the centrifugal force as you bring the rod around from back to front or from the sand to the sky, depending on your casting technique. Physics says the further from the rod tip your weight is, the faster it's speed will be and the further it will fly. So to me your knot and leader should never even pass through the ferrules. 



So I can't imagine you throwing the weight and bait dangling only inches from your end ferrule with the leader and knot reeled up into the rod/reel.

For my spinners, I tie a Surgeons loop on the rod/line end of the leader, snell the hook on the other end of a 3ft leader, use a weight slider between the snelled hook and the Surgeon loop, add a 5-8 oz frog's tung weight to the slider and let her rip. I get 80-100 yards plus and more if I really want to try to rip it and risk cutting my finger tip off in the process


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## Drumdum (Jan 6, 2003)

Flea you might try an alberto knot.. I don't use spinners except sightcasting,and jigging,and just tie bimini to no-name there,but I don't have anymore than 18 or so " of leader so it's not in the guides..The alberto has a low profile and is the strongest singleline connection I have found... Saw another knot on Open Forum recently that would work,kinda like "Chinese hancuffs",but looked like it would take forever and a day to tie...


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## CrawFish (Sep 23, 2003)

AtlantaKing said:


> It's a heck of a good reason to go conventional!


Agreed. Convention gears are now made very user-friendly. I get all the rookies to try out, they wouldn't want to go back to spinners.


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## AbuMike (Sep 3, 2007)

sand flea said:


> Has anyone else noticed that shock knots that work perfectly well on conventionals cause problems on spinners? I've noticed the spider hitch/no-name combo has a tendency to hang in the first or second guide during a cast, often leading to break-offs.
> 
> It's particularly pronounced when using 20#/50# line, but it even happens with the #17/#40 sometimes.





AtlantaKing said:


> It's a heck of a good reason to go conventional!



Flea....use the force....come to the darkside...


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## jhook (Jul 27, 2008)

I had the same knot problem on my spinner and became so frustrated I eliminated the shock leader and just ran with the 20lb.line. 
I took the advice I got on this forum and bought an OM 12ft. 3-6oz. rod with a Penn 525mag and just set the mags on slow, and it`s very user friendly for a beginner.


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## Shooter (Nov 14, 2004)

I have tried to get Flea to come back to the Dark side but I guess he has to much of that Yankie blood in him,,, he also likes to pound his PVC tubes into the sand too  

Flea next time down I will show ya a knot (aint saying which one as to not start a fight) but I am headed south this weekend lookn for them Spoty fish


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## Newsjeff (Jul 22, 2004)

Shooter said:


> Flea next time down I will show ya a knot (aint saying which one as to not start a fight) but I am headed south this weekend lookn for them Spoty fish


Flea, whatever you do don't use Shooter's albright.

That's a lost fish just waitin' to happen.


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## dawgfsh (Mar 1, 2005)

Fireline20 said:


> As a Spinner only Surf fisher, I have to ask why are you reeling your leader into your rod???
> 
> I mean, a 3-4 ft 60 lb leader is really all you need and you should have that much (maybe more) hanging out of the rod to add to the centrifugal force as you bring the rod around from back to front or from the sand to the sky, depending on your casting technique. Physics says the further from the rod tip your weight is, the faster it's speed will be and the further it will fly. So to me your knot and leader should never even pass through the ferrules.
> 
> ...


 Sure hope that fireline is more than 20# test (at least 50, I hope). Otherwise please let us know when you are coming to Hatteras so I can bring my helmet.


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## Fireline20 (Oct 2, 2007)

dawgfsh said:


> Sure hope that fireline is more than 20# test (at least 50, I hope). Otherwise please let us know when you are coming to Hatteras so I can bring my helmet.


Yo dude,,,check out the name...Fireline20..
Now from that, what line do u think I use,,,,,

Hello,,, 60 #lb, leader, 20# Fireline 

You don't need a helmet unless your 100 yards off shore in a kayak.

Call me when u want a demo and u can paddle fast enough to get out of the way of my accurate spin reel cast from 100 yards

Why do people want to challenge known fact with such a challenge:--|:--|


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## ReelinRod (May 29, 2003)

sand flea said:


> Has anyone else noticed that shock knots that work perfectly well on conventionals cause problems on spinners? I've noticed the spider hitch/no-name combo has a tendency to hang in the first or second guide during a cast, often leading to break-offs.


Guide wraps can have many causes; they arise with ever increasing frequency as your casting improves and line velocities increase. These problems are not deficiencies in your knot or your reel or your casting motion . . . They are exposing a flaw in the design of spinning rods sold today.

Spinning _guide_ design and layout are stuck in the '1950's when reel spools were short and shallow, glass rods were soft and mushy and casters were barely achieving 60 yards with thick mono. 

Nowadays, putting a long spool reel on a long, high-modulus graphite rod capable of generating considerable tip speed but using guide designs and layouts from the cold war era is bound to cause problems.

On most spinning rods the collector or choke guide is too close to the reel and *ALL* the guides are too large. This flaw isn't a problem for most casters; only when line velocities exceed what the guides can handle does this rear it's ugly head. The line "blows by" a particular guide when moving at high speed . It isn't _always_ the first guide; but given a particular reel, rod and caster the problem is usually confined to one guide (maybe the second or even third from the collector).

Think of the line coming off the reel as a waveform; the "coils" are large and close together when first leaving the reel. As distance increases from the spool the coils get smaller because they are getting l o n g e r, being stretched by the sinker pulling on the line.

This means at 27 inches the shorter "coils" are striking the ring of the guide at a hard angle and they catch on it. Now move the guide further away and not only are the coils smaller they form a shallower angle and flow through a *smaller guide* smoother than a big guide. Now the line is flowing along the rod like a laser, there is no slap, there is no blow-by, there is only a clean frictionless zip . . .

So, you have two alternatives . . . Either choke the line quickly but further away from the reel or try to gradually choke it without disrupting the waveform. Only the first is an option when one is utilizing long stiff rods and powercasting energy.

Forget the big rings build with a 40 collector at the largest and move it out from the reel . . . At least 40 inches for a 5- 8 oz distance heaver. 

As most know here I'm a big fan of the Lowrider concept and my distance set-ups utilize it and the system's most striking feature, a 20 mm collector guide that sits anywhere between 47 and 51 inches from the reel stem. 

*13'-2" AllStar 1507, Daiwa Tournament Surf Basia w/ 20lb Sufix running line and 65 lb PP casting leader.*








​I have a 1569 rung with Lowriders too; you don't want to know how far that throws 8&Bait.

You conventional purists would be in for a big surprise casting a set-up like these (a much longer walk than you are accustomed to retrieve your sinker).   opcorn:


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## Cdog (Mar 18, 2002)

Fireline20 said:


> Yo dude,,,check out the name...Fireline20..
> Now from that, what line do u think I use,,,,,
> 
> Hello,,, 60 #lb, leader, 20# Fireline
> ...


Some people catch more than blues, a shock works wonders when trying to beach a big fish...


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## Fireline20 (Oct 2, 2007)

Too much science for me but hey I think it confirms what I said in laymans terms:

Distance equals :Velocity of rod tip speed/velocity of end point object/ ie 8/weight


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## Caught Myself (Sep 14, 2004)

I donated about a dozen rigs last year after trying a bunch of different knot combinations. I don't mind losing them that much but don't be surprised if you catch a fish with a hook, bite leader and shock leader hanging out of it's mouth. I eliminated the shock leader until I can find a knot that really works. Can't cast quite as far and have to use a glove but I have no regrets. It was a good year. I'll try your knot, DD.


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## eric (Oct 24, 2007)

ive used albrights with spinners.
as long as you trim the shock tag at an angle.. make it look like a ramp for the main line.
it usually goes through guides just fine.

im not saying its THE best, but works.


but i use conventionals so what does a stupid noob like me know. HhhHAhaahah


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## JeepMike (Feb 4, 2008)

I have tied bimini to a noname on spinning gear and have yet to have a knot get caught on the eye. I have seen some people dropping bombs all over the ocean with spinning reels/shock leaders. It's all a matter of preference.


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## Fireline20 (Oct 2, 2007)

Cdog said:


> Some people catch more than blues, a shock works wonders when trying to beach a big fish...


Again I am confused,,,,what is the difference between a 60lb shock leader tied to 20 lb line,,,(braid, mono, fireline,,,take your pick) and 60 lb leader tied to the same 20 lb line,,,

I guess my whole concept is of a mono leader is that it will

A. Stretch

and

B.Give you a place for your hands when you lift the out of t he wash so you don't slice your hand off.

Plus, no one has explained to me why you would reel your shock leader onto the spool in the first place.


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## jcreamer (Mar 6, 2001)

I have been having the same problem and all the time was blaming myself.
Thanks for solving the problem.


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## hamlet (Sep 4, 2007)

Fireline20 said:


> Again I am confused,,,,what is the difference between a 60lb shock leader tied to 20 lb line,,,(braid, mono, fireline,,,take your pick) and 60 lb leader tied to the same 20 lb line,,,
> 
> I guess my whole concept is of a mono leader is that it will
> 
> ...


Shock leaders have to be wound a few turns onto the spool or they dont serve their purpose... to take the shock of a power cast on line heavier (stronger) than your running line.

If you are not familiar with shock leaders then do search on the forums and there are a ton of threads on it. If you are familiar with shock leaders then I am not sure what you are asking.


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## Cdog (Mar 18, 2002)

Fireline20 said:


> Again I am confused,,,,what is the difference between a 60lb shock leader tied to 20 lb line,,,(braid, mono, fireline,,,take your pick) and 60 lb leader tied to the same 20 lb line,,,
> 
> I guess my whole concept is of a mono leader is that it will
> 
> ...


OK, if I understood your original post, you do not have the shock on the spool. So you are using say 10-12' of shock at most. On my conv, I go over board. 8-10 wraps of shock on the spool + the leangth of the rod.

1.When you are casting but do not have the shock on the spool you are still putting the stress on the line on the spool. When I cast I am putting the stress on the #50 shock.

2.When you are fighting a big fish, say a drum. You will be fighting that fish all the way on your #20 braid. Including the wash where IMO, more big fish are lost than anywhere else. In my example I will have my shock on the rod and the reel when the fish is still 40-50' out in the wash. So in the critical time that the fish is in the wash I have #50 line to "horse" the fish in and lessen the chance of losing em.

Last fall I experminted with using a shorter shock and busted a drum off in the wash.

JMO, your mileage may vary.


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## sand flea (Oct 24, 1999)

Good explanations of the physics involved here. Makes sense that a) heavier knots would tend to spin outwards due to centripetal force, thus striking the guides and b) larger gathering guides make the problem worse.

I think the takeaway from all this is simple: if you're throwing spinners that don't have low-rise guides way up the blank, you better stick to the tiniest shock knots possible.

(And no, Shooter, I will not use an Albright. We'll pull out the scales and I'll prove to you that Albrights break before even the crappy but very small figure 8/uni.)


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

Cdog said:


> OK, if I understood your original post, you do not have the shock on the spool. So you are using say 10-12' of shock at most. On my conv, I go over board. 8-10 wraps of shock on the spool + the leangth of the rod.
> 
> 1.When you are casting but do not have the shock on the spool you are still putting the stress on the line on the spool. When I cast I am putting the stress on the #50 shock.
> 
> ...


I might be missing something in the math here. If you have 8-10 wraps on the reel of a standard 13' heaver and utilize a drop of say 6-8 feet, that would make your total length of shock leader about 18- 22 feet, at most. Not sure I understand how you could have a fish be 40-50 feet away in the wash and have wraps of the shock leader on the reel, unless I am missing something here.

Not picking Clay, just looking for perhaps a clarification ??

I think Sgt Slough is right on in his assessment, if you want to use spinning (nothing wrong with that) consider having a rod set up properly with low rider guides. The right tool for the right job, as they say.


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## Fireline20 (Oct 2, 2007)

Guess it all depends on your style and purpose.

I use 20# Fireline because it has the diameter of 8# mono, plus it breaks at higher than 20#, around 23-25#. The smaller the diameter of the line, the further you can cast, so I don't need but a leader of more than 3 ft, as I am not putting as much stress on the line if I were using mono as my running line

However, the point made about having a longer leader for horsing the fish out of the wash is a good point I have not considered. 

But then again, I can't buy into winding that much heavy mono onto a spinning reel as it would seem to cut way down on the casting distance, not to mention the loss of the amount of running line on a spinner. On a big spinner like a Daiwa BG 60 or BG 90, your gonna get a max of 220-250 yards or so of 20lb mono, albiet more braid or fireline due to the smaller diameter of both.

Seems we are all talking about trade offs as there is no one perfect solution


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

Fireline20 said:


> Guess it all depends on your style and purpose.
> 
> I use 20# Fireline because it has the diameter of 8# mono, plus it breaks at higher than 20#, around 23-25#. The smaller the diameter of the line, the further you can cast, so I don't need but a leader of more than 3 ft, because I am not putting as much stress on the line if I were using mono as my running line
> 
> ...


Most of the guys are talking about casting safety. How much weight are you tossing with 20 lb fireline ? Guidelines call for using at least 10 lbs of breaking strength for each ounce of lead, at a breaking test of 23-25#, you are not safe to toss much more than 2-3 oounces of weight. I know- you might be able to get way with tossing a little more- but that doesn't mean it's safe.


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## hamlet (Sep 4, 2007)

Fireline20 said:


> Guess it all depends on your style and purpose.
> 
> I use 20# Fireline because it has the diameter of 8# mono, plus it breaks at higher than 20#, around 23-25#. The smaller the diameter of the line, the further you can cast, so I don't need but a leader of more than 3 ft, as I am not putting as much stress on the line if I were using mono as my running line
> 
> ...


I'm not taking issue with any of your points about distance etc.... but I would add that 7 or 8 wraps of shock-size mono on a spinner is not really cutting down it's capacity.


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## Cdog (Mar 18, 2002)

Surf Cat said:


> I might be missing something in the math here. If you have 8-10 wraps on the reel of a standard 13' heaver and utilize a drop of say 6-8 feet, that would make your total length of shock leader about 18- 22 feet, at most. Not sure I understand how you could have a fish be 40-50 feet away in the wash and have wraps of the shock leader on the reel, unless I am missing something here.
> 
> Not picking Clay, just looking for perhaps a clarification ??
> 
> I think Sgt Slough is right on in his assessment, if you want to use spinning (nothing wrong with that) consider having a rod set up properly with low rider guides. The right tool for the right job, as they say.


You are probably correct Mark. Although when I say 8-10 wraps I mean 8-10 cranks of the reel handle. As I understand it that comes to roughly 3 feet per crank so 24-30' there and then the drop another 8-10'. So probably more like 30-40' rather than 40-50'.Math never was my strong suit tho.

That being said, my point was with having the shock on the reel gives the angler a higher pound test to fight the fish with rather than having say only 20 pound test to try and beach the fish.


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

hamlet said:


> I'm not taking issue with any of your points about distance etc.... but I would add that 7 or 8 wraps of shock-size mono on a spinner is not really cutting down it's capacity.



It's not a capacity issue- it's those heavy coils of mono banging into the guides that takes the steam off the speed of the flying lead. The best bet might be a braid to heavier braid connection for the "shock" leader, and then a shorter section of heavy mono (5-7') that stays ouside the guides for handling fish.


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## hamlet (Sep 4, 2007)

As i said, Im not taking issue with the distance arguments.

But he did say this...

"not to mention the loss of the amount of running line on a spinner. "

Hence my post.


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

Cdog said:


> You are probably correct Mark. Although when I say 8-10 wraps I mean 8-10 cranks of the reel handle. As I understand it that comes to roughly 3 feet per crank so 24-30' there and then the drop another 8-10'. So probably more like 30-40' rather than 40-50'.Math never was my strong suit tho.
> 
> That being said, my point was with having the shock on the reel gives the angler a higher pound test to fight the fish with rather than having say only 20 pound test to try and beach the fish.


No argument on any of your points Clay,and your right, 8-10 cranks of the reel handle is much more length than 8-10 "wraps" around the spool. That clears up the mystery. I was estimating length on wraps, not cranks 


Thanks for the clarification.


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

hamlet said:


> As i said, Im not taking issue with the distance arguments.
> 
> But he did say this...
> 
> ...


My bad- -- I missed that, agree that a few coils around the reel isn't cutting down on capacity.


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## Mark H. (Nov 26, 2005)

Saw a guy using a tiny piece of shrink wrap over his knot. Looked pretty smooth. I haven't tried it. Has anyone else?


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## dawgfsh (Mar 1, 2005)

Fireline20 said:


> Yo dude,,,check out the name...Fireline20..
> Now from that, what line do u think I use,,,,,
> 
> Hello,,, 60 #lb, leader, 20# Fireline
> ...


 Your name is what I was concerned about

If your throwing 20-25# line and 8oz sinkers with no Shock leader then your endangering anyone thats fishing around you.


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## Puppy Mullet (Dec 5, 2003)

Fireline20 said:


> Too much science for me but hey I think it confirms what I said in laymans terms:
> 
> Distance equals :Velocity of rod tip speed/velocity of end point object/ ie 8/weight


I had a dude walk up beside me in the dark out on the point using your set up.
He rared back and let it rip. The bail slapped shut and instead of the line breaking the 8oz flew back and cracked the bones in the back of my hand.
I made him crank my bait in.
It got a little ugly after that..
My vacation time, money, whole trip screwed.


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## Fireline20 (Oct 2, 2007)

Obviously none of you guys have ever fished Ft Fisher aka "The Fort" where I fish because I hate crowds,,, which is also why I refuse to fish from a pier or fish at the "Point". 

To be honest with you the fishing might be a bit better at the Point but I cannot imagine the chaos of 200 people fishing within 10 feet of each other. That would defeat my whole purpose for surf fishing,,,the solitude.

But if you had fished "The Fort" you would know that there is no one within 200 yards of each other on any given day and most days it is a lot more than that and I believe I can get an "amen brother" from other Fort guys. Take note of picture on the left,,,that is a Saturday in Sept and you don't see another soul down the beach.

As to fishing with 8 oz of lead, I don't use anything over 6 oz, don't need to at the Fort because the water drops off deep real fast and most of the fish are within 100 yards of the beach and I have never broken Fireline 20# during a cast.

Like I said to each his own and this has turned into a pissing contest. Case closed as far as I am concerned.

Tight lines guys,,,enjoy your day:fishing:


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## dawgfsh (Mar 1, 2005)

Sorry Fireline20

I didn't mean to turn this into a pissing contest, just trying to point out to others that throwing 5-8 oz on 20# line is not a good idea.
With a soft rod and a smooth cast anything is possible, but for most of us it would be really hard to accomplish. 

Good Fishing


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## Fireline20 (Oct 2, 2007)

dawgfsh said:


> Sorry Fireline20
> 
> I didn't mean to turn this into a pissing contest, just trying to point out to others that throwing 5-8 oz on 20# line is not a good idea.
> With a soft rod and a smooth cast anything is possible, but for most of us it would be really hard to accomplish.
> ...


Good fishing to you also...:fishing:

I guess not only is it different strokes for different folks but it all depends on where your fishing. 

Thanks all for the info, and if and when I do get up to the Point again or to the Chessie, I will remember all those guide lines..as one thing I would never do is be a rude and un-safe fisherman..

God speed to you all in your fishing endeavors.


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## Puppy Mullet (Dec 5, 2003)

I have almost busted my own teeth out before!

What it boils down to is the drag.
Anything bigger than 2oz. I back off the drag on the cast, then tighten up when it hits. 
On conventional reels or spinners. 
1: It wont come back at you if you are not in free spool
2: If you backlash the line will not bite down into itself so bad.

Its all about learnin Fireline..
If the line is wrapped aroud your rod tip.. Everybody watch out.. LOL


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## Fireline20 (Oct 2, 2007)

What it boils down to is the drag.
Anything bigger than 2oz. I back off the drag on the cast said:


> Now that is a very good suggestion and I will start using that or put it in free spool, as I do when I back up the beach once by bait has hit the water. I will just do it before I cast and save myself a step.
> 
> Thanks for that tip


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## Digger (Jan 4, 2000)

Shooter said:


> I have tried to get Flea to come back to the Dark side but I guess he has to much of that Yankie blood in him,,, he also likes to pound his PVC tubes into the sand too
> 
> Flea next time down I will show ya a knot (aint saying which one as to not start a fight) but I am headed south this weekend lookn for them Spoty fish



I have seen his cast. Which is why the Darkside does not agree with him.

Back when I used spinners on Heaviers I just used Doubled line for shock with a simple spidrerhitch. Though on my schoolie rods i use a no-name to attach 17lb Vanish to the 10-12lb running line and it works just fine. That should be good on the heavier.


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## Puppy Mullet (Dec 5, 2003)

I second what Digger is saying.. 
I used it 10 years and never hung a knot on the guides or lost any big creatures.

Double 20' of line with a spider. 
Stick the loop thru and around the barrel on the hook. 
2 less knots to worry about.


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## Puppy Mullet (Dec 5, 2003)

sand flea said:


> Has anyone else noticed that shock knots that work perfectly well on conventional cause problems on spinners? I've noticed the spider hitch/no-name combo has a tendency to hang in the first or second guide during a cast, often leading to break-offs.
> 
> It's particularly pronounced when using 20#/50# line, but it even happens with the #17/#40 sometimes.


Back to original question..

The "Albertos Knot" is as strong as a 2 knot connection when connecting lines of much different diameter.

It really shines with mono to braid, such as floro leaders and shocks on spin reels.

Its easier than it looks.

Just a no-name wrapped twice. very easy..

Anybody that likes to test knot strength, I would like to see see results of this single knot connection.

Try it Sandflea!

I know its inappropriate to send you elsewhere but.. Here' da link below..

http://www.stripersonline.com/Pages/Articles/article_arby_albertos_knot.shtml


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## Green Cart (May 14, 2002)

*My Comments*

Sand Flea

I agreed with your first response and your other response to thin knot. I had the same problems when doing power casts with surf spinning rods. Once in a while, I would get the knot broken off at the first or second guide. It happens so fast that it is hard to pinpoint which guide it happens. As others said, you should not have this problem when using conventional outfit. But like you, I like to use spinning outfit. I have been doing research on trying to find the thinnest knot to use, but it has to be easy to tie, too. The knot strengths in the bible is a good place to start research. I still have not found the perfect knot.

Fireline20

 I think we have failed to convince you and you have failed to do sufficient research, but the whole point for using a shockleader is to prevent the heavy sinker from breaking off during a power cast. You said that you let your rod with 5-8 oz sinker rip to 80-100 yds plus. That is not a power cast. Your rip is more like a loft


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## High Plains Drifter (Feb 16, 2007)

The confusion in this thread is few people differenciate between the situation of a plugger vs. that of a bait fisherman. I spent a long time investigating and experimenting with "wrap around the spool" leader junctions using spinning reels. I found that virtually all the people who stated success with this were bait fishermen. I didn't find anyone (creditable) who claimed success while plugging. 

One basic reason for this is pluggers throw many more casts per fishing session than bait fishermen. If a tangle/break off occurs once in twenty casts the plugger will be frustrated on every outing and the bait fisherman might only occur this once out of every several outings. Additionally, pluggers typically throw with higher INITAL line velocities. Why is this? Pluggers usually throw @ three-ounces and lighter. They can (and need to) generate higher initial line speeds with these weights (but their plugs decelerate more rapidly). As the weights thrown become heavier (bait fishing), the initial line speeds tend to drop off but the carried inertia of the heavier weights become a positive factor in casting distance. As Sgt. Slough said in reply #20, the higher the initial line speed the higher the problem rate.

The real problem with wrap around the spool line connections is the abrupt transition in the flex (limpness/stiffness) of the two lines. Instead of a smoothly flowing coil of line, the abrupt change in line flex causes a kind of "square corner" in the line flow. When this hits a guide (esp. in particular guide set ups) bad things happen. It makes sense that mono to mono combinations cause less problems than very limp braid to very stiff heavy fluoro. The least amount of line flex change occurs between braid to braid combinations.

The knot itself is a problem for spinning reels. It's not necessarily the tag ends or the smoothness of knot. Remember, the line is peeling off the spinning reel spool SIDEWAYS. Any "bump" has potential to be caught by the outflowing line causing it to be prematurely pulled off the spool (what a mess!). The only effective way to combat this is to take the time to wind the knot at the bottom of the spool. Bait fishermen can do this but pluggers can't deal with this when making so many casts.

If you are a spinning plugger I doubt you will have success with wrap around the spool leaders. Use braid running line heavy enough to be safe with your casting weights and use a short "bite leader" that does not get reeled inside the guides. If you are a spinning bait fisherman you might have success with wrap around the spool leaders if you pay attention to the nuances of it all. - HPD


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## ReelinRod (May 29, 2003)

Fireline20 said:


> Too much science for me but hey I think it confirms what I said in laymans terms:
> 
> Distance equals :Velocity of rod tip speed/velocity of end point object/ ie 8/weight


If that's all you took from what I wrote then I really don't know what to say . . . Nobody is disputing what factors create distance, the discussion is how those forces (at high, if not extreme levels) cause components to perform *and react* with other components. 



Caught Myself said:


> I donated about a dozen rigs last year after trying a bunch of different knot combinations.


It's not the knot . . . 



Puppy Mullet said:


> What it boils down to is the drag.
> Anything bigger than 2oz. I back off the drag on the cast, then tighten up when it hits.


Are you saying you do this with spinning tackle? I understand doing it with conventionals but how do you generate _*any*_ energy when you have the drag loose?



Fireline20 said:


> Plus, no one has explained to me why you would reel your shock leader onto the spool in the first place.


In the simplest terms, if you are not reeling the heavier line onto the reel then it is not a "shock" (or casting) leader. Calling it a "shock leader" is just wrong. The comments here only reflect the mistake you are making in the name. Feel free to call it a bite leader, chafe leader, landing leader or "Fort" leader . . . Just don't call it a shock leader. 



Surf Cat said:


> I think Sgt Slough is right on in his assessment, if you want to use spinning (nothing wrong with that) consider having a rod set up properly with low rider guides. The right tool for the right job, as they say.


The rod doesn't _*have*_ to be rung with lowriders; lowriders are pretty much for braid running / braid casting leader set-ups (although I have used this rod in casting tournaments (.28/.75 mono) for the 100gm and 125gm and done 625+ with it). I think guide size is secondary in eliminating guide loops; the most important factor is distance from the reel to the first (collector) guide. The sizes of the guides is next and that is partly determined by the first factor and then by the reel itself (foot angle and how aggressively is dispenses line). 

Agian, the line coming off the reel is like a waveform but the amplitude, the height of the "waves" in the line is ever decreasing the further from the reel it gets because the sinker is pulling on the line, straightening it.










It makes no sense to have guides bigger than the the line coils are *at the point the guide is located*. A 50mm guide 40 inches from the reel is just an expensive, useless adornment if, at 40 inches from the reel the line coils only measure 35mm. Put a 30mm guide 40mm from the reel and you are actually doing something to control the line (and help rod recovery by lessening tip weighting).

Even with no guides the line coming off a spinner _will become straight at some point_; collector placement and size is important to _help_ this process without causing a problem.



Surf Cat said:


> it's those heavy coils of mono banging into the guides that takes the steam off the speed of the flying lead. The best bet might be a braid to heavier braid connection for the "shock" leader, and then a shorter section of heavy mono (5-7') that stays ouside the guides for handling fish.


Absitively Posolutely!!!

Mono shockleaders do create their own problems. I equate a mono shocker as trying to throw a slinky through a basketball hoop without it catching the ring. 

Believing a heavy mono shocker corkscrewing itself through the guides towing a wispy braid running line behind it is *NOT* going to cause problems is like believing in unicorns and mermaids. 

On my distance set-ups I use 20lb (1507) and 30lb (1569) Sufix braid as my running line and 65lb and 80 lb braid for casting leaders. The main strand of my rig is of course constructed of 80lb to 130lb mono and is usually 3 to 5 feet long. That is plenty of line to handle a fish from the beach; for wading a bar I would make it a bit longer.

IMNSHO a mono shocker on spinners with braid running line is without any redeeming performance qualities -- but that's a discussion for another thread.


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## Walt (Oct 24, 2008)

Ok guys, I am new to the site. I live in California and have never surf fished. I joined a short while ago. I haunt this place because its an excellent source of information for distance casting which I need in order to cast a 1 1/2 oz Sadine as far as possible off a charter boat with 25 other anglers on board, a 500 gallon bait tank and a wheel house to contend with. That task may seem simple but it has some unique problems. 

Anyway, on this knot discussion...... I tend to look at things from an engineering standpoint. Agreed with the comments about there not being a smooth transition between the shock leader and the spectra causing the knot to get caught on the guide and separating. I had a similar problem casting the Sardine though not as catistrophoic as the problem presented. What I did was switch to a Bob Sands knot. The way its tied causes the build up of the Spectra to form a tapered lead in to the mono knot. I have supplied a link below to its construction. Looking at the pictures you will be able to see what I am talking about. 

http://bobsandsfishingtackle.awardspace.com/bobsandsknot.html

The knot is very strong as is but not being able to leave well enough alone I made some modifications. One major change I made was to tie a Bimini Twist in the Spectra and then proceed to treat the looped section as a single line and tie the knot as instructed. The Bimini increased the breaking point of the knot and caused a thicker lead in build up tapering down to the knotted part of the mono. 

Will this solve the problem ??? Not haveing surf fishing expierence I do not know , but from an engineering stand point it may be worth a try. 

Thanks to everyone who contributes to this site, the information gained on this site I have applied to my problems and has helped me a lot. It is much appreciated. 

Walt 
Walnut, California


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## Fireline20 (Oct 2, 2007)

To final point here.

*To Green Cart who said:*

_Fireline20

I think we have failed to convince you and you have failed to do sufficient research, but the whole point for using a shockleader is to prevent the heavy sinker from breaking off during a power cast. You said that you let your rod with 5-8 oz sinker rip to 80-100 yds plus. That is not a power cast. Your rip is more like a loft._
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I am not going to get into a macho pissing contest on the subject who casts the furtherest or what a ripping a cast meand. If you read my other posts you would see that I don't need to cast any further to reach the fish at the Fort. Sorry you seem to deem the test of manhood is how far you can heave an 8 oz weight. I don't heave 8 oz weights, don't need to and don't intend on doing so.

Besides I did not post this in the Distance Casting forum

*Sgt Slough said:*

_In the simplest terms, if you are not reeling the heavier line onto the reel then it is not a "shock" (or casting) leader. Calling it a "shock leader" is just wrong. The comments here only reflect the mistake you are making in the name. Feel free to call it a bite leader, chafe leader, landing leader or "Fort" leader . . . Just don't call it a shock leader._
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I agree totally with that and it is effect a bite leader, chafe leader, landing leader or "Fort" leader, or perhaps the term "stretch leader" would be more appropriate as it will stretch when fighting a big fish that pure braid or Fireline do not do. 

Thanks for that clarification as it is a justifiable rebuke:redface:


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## dawgfsh (Mar 1, 2005)

Fireline20 

There used to be a good drum hole way down the beach from Fort Fisher, on a 10-20 Ne blow and a long cast with 8 and bait . I use to catch 45-49" drum, was just wondering if that hole was still there. If ya get down that way could you let me know.


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## jhook (Jul 27, 2008)

opcorn: good thread


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## Fireline20 (Oct 2, 2007)

dawgfsh said:


> Fireline20
> 
> There used to be a good drum hole way down the beach from Fort Fisher, on a 10-20 Ne blow and a long cast with 8 and bait . I use to catch 45-49" drum, was just wondering if that hole was still there. If ya get down that way could you let me know.


You are probably talking about the "Inlet" that does not exist anymore after a hurricane,,,Firespyder and other can sing the praises of that honey hole but that was before my time....butttt, if you know where it used to be,,,it is a very good place to fish...


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## dawgfsh (Mar 1, 2005)

Sand flee 

back to your original ?
If you use a mono shock leader, guides have a lot to do with how that knot behaves and it does behave different depending on whether you use mono or braid running line.

For a good combination rod: 

Guides like the Fuji Alconites BMNAG starting with a 30, Turned backwards and placed out like Sgt Slough suggested then the rest of the BMNAG guides ( 25, 20, 16,16,16 or 16, 12,12 ect ) mounted regular, either cone of flight or Consept style will go a long way toward stopping your problem


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## rattler (Jul 3, 2004)

Sgt_Slough said:


> If that's all you took from what I wrote then I really don't know what to say . . . Nobody is disputing what factors create distance, the discussion is how those forces (at high, if not extreme levels) cause components to perform *and react* with other components.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


first let me say I will not use braid on a heaver. nor do I believe you need 10 to every oz of weight you throw. if you throw smooth and do not "snap cast" you should be able to recover from a hang up or a bail flip. I use 2 wraps on the reel and a slim beauty knot. works for me and has up to 10oz. use a hatteras cast or off the beach for big baits and very seldom break off.


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## Puppy Mullet (Dec 5, 2003)

Quote: Sgt Slogh.."Are you saying you do this with spinning tackle? I understand doing it with conventionals but how do you generate any energy when you have the drag loose?" 

I said back off, not loose. 
If it peels 6' of line on a bum cast it makes a big difference on the Snedley Whiplash effect.


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## eric (Oct 24, 2007)

dawgfsh said:


> Sand flee
> 
> back to your original ?
> If you use a mono shock leader, guides have a lot to do with how that knot behaves and it does behave different depending on whether you use mono or braid running line.
> ...



DO NOT turn a 30mm BMNAG (if you use this as a stripper) backwards.
these rings are pressed into the frame from the bottom (2 leg side), up. 
if you flip it around.. you defeat the purpose of it being pressed in's "strength"
and if your lucky, you might can maybe have a knot hit the ring at a bad angle.. 
then,, POP! blow out the ring on a WTF!#(*&!$ bad cast.
even though it probably wont happen.. but you never know..


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## ReelinRod (May 29, 2003)

rattler said:


> first let me say I will not use braid on a heaver.


Running line or casting leader or both? I have no comment / disagreement on mono/mono set-ups; I am only discussing spinners using thin (20lb/ .23mm) braid running line.



rattler said:


> nor do I believe you need 10 to every oz of weight you throw.


That formula was devised with a margin of safety for full pendulum tournament casts; I don't think there are many fishermen that can generate comparable stresses using fishing equipment so I agree with you. But I also believe there are more good reasons than bad to repeat the rule and recommend it being adhered to when posting on the boards. 



rattler said:


> if you throw smooth and do not "snap cast" you should be able to recover from a hang up or a bail flip.


Perhaps on a reduced power cast or just a couple oz, with 5 or more ounces a guide wrap is a sure snap-off for me and I consider it a good outcome if the guide is still there. All my distance reels have manual bails so bail flips are not an issue for me.



rattler said:


> I use 2 wraps on the reel and a slim beauty knot. works for me and has up to 10oz. use a hatteras cast or off the beach for big baits and very seldom break off


Unless I have some sort of mishap like a guide wrap I never break-off. For fishing, my casting leader may have 15 or more wraps just to have fish control ability in the undertow. I'd rather have the knot well on the reel when trying to get a fish onto the sand.



Puppy Mullet said:


> I said back off, not loose.
> If it peels 6' of line on a bum cast it makes a big difference on the Snedley Whiplash effect.


I need to lock the spool when casting; what you are suggesting just doesn't compute and I must urge that if anyone is using a spinner with straight braid or a braid casting leader to *NEVER* cast with a spool that can turn . . . Having the spool turn when casting turns the braid into a rope saw on your finger. Tape or a leather stall might not protect you in that situation.


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## NorthAdriatic (Nov 3, 2008)

Hello to all.
I hope to be able to correctly translate all your messages and to have understood the meaning.

I think the problem can be solved by analyzing how different materials such as polyester and nylon, reacting to tension.
In addition, the position of the first link must follow a specific rule must be placed on blank about to encounter a line tangent inclined to 4 degrees to the center of gravity of the coil.
This is for the fixed spools.
I have solved many problems with all diameters using this node: 

He has resisted many efforts, including some sharks caught by the beaches of Namibia and 'Angola.
For brided I usually use one produced by the Indy line, ( www.indyline.net )

I hope that I made it.
Excuse me, but my English is really pitiful!


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## rattler (Jul 3, 2004)

SGT_SLOUGH...I respect your knowledge. I use braid on plugging and jigging rods only. I fish in places I know, so the distance won't kill me. The biggest thing that comes into play are conditions. I tried braid w/8 & bait and just didn't like it. I have seen a 10oz pyramid go through a truck door so I do use a shock leader. Everyone throwing a HEAVER needs a shocker. The biggest i've used was #60 when throwing 10oz. Always make sure my set is clear before I cast. I'm not trying to set records, just catch fish.


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## longcast (Jan 9, 2005)

Varivas tapered 15 meter shock leaders pretty much solve the dissimilar line size knot banging guides on spinning reel/rods. They taper from 17lb to 70lb, tied with UNI/UNI problems with double knots are gone.


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## Charlie2 (May 2, 2007)

*Shockleader Knots*

You guys have pretty well thrashed this one out so let me share something:

I use a uni-to-uni or a braid between the shockleader and mainline.

Then I coat the knot with Knot Sense to make little 'rat pill' ends. I did use Pliobond, but no more.

This Knot Sense cures in about 20 seconds when exposed to UV(sunlight) You have to keep the container in the shade or it will set up. They do make a longer curing version, which I like, that cures in minutes.

Try it; I think that you'll like it. JMHO C2


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## Fishman (Apr 23, 2000)

I agree with Mud shorten the shock line. I like about 2 to 3 feet. I have no problem. I mostly use this for striper season and casting metal (Sting Silvers). My knots donr go all the way down onto the spool.


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