# non-level wind vs level wind



## glenn3564 (Nov 12, 2013)

I own a couple older Abu's and use them only catfishing at my camper in N.C. so I don't know the exact model #s but I think they are
5500's. I have 9 Daiwa spinning reels I love and I have 4 of them set up for surf fishing on 12' rods. I just got back into surf fishing
this year since I am now retired at 61 and have had 5 heart attacks but have been lucky to overcome them. I am about 5'10" and
weigh around 215. I have not practiced much with the spinning reels but am throwing on average of 115 to 130 yds.. I am looking
at getting an Abu 7000IC3 CT. I don't have any trouble throwing my older Abu's, as long as I keep them in adjustment. Where I
am fishing up there, 80 yards would be the max I would and can throw and I don't have any problems with "spider webbing" the line.
I am using a 7' Penn Power Stick on both reels. Question is, do you think this 7000IC3 CT is too much reel for me to start out with
surf fishing and "if not", what rod would you recommend. Keep in mind, I'm retired and a $300 rod is out of the question. Also, I have
seen some guys on the surf this past year with spinning rods with a LARGE conventional reel and the line coming out of the reel would
line up perfectly with the first eyelet. Is a spinning rod a viable option? By the way, the 7000 is a non-level wind reel. The ones I
have used have been level winds. Think I would be making a mistake on this 7000?


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## yerbyray (May 18, 2010)

I use Abu 5500 and 6500 for both pier and surf. You could use the reels you currently have but you would have to tie a very low profile shock leader to main line knot. I have done it in the past and not afraid to do it now. I use 15-17# mainline and 30# shock leader with 3 oz weight with the typical hi lo rig (I tie my own)

A heavier shock leader will not pass through the level wind without danger to breaking the line or messing something else up.

I think you could find on the marketplace here or some online large auction site an Abu without a level wind. You could easily remove one of yours and swap it to a non-level wind for less than twenty bucks. 

As for the rod...You can find a tsunami or tica in the 10-11' range that would do an Abu 6500 justice and the same for a 9' for an Abu 5500.

A spinning rod has the spine aligned opposite for a conventional and there isn't enough eyes to keep the line of the rod typically.

I think it is safe to say that for 200 bucks you could have a great reel and rod for surf. Use what you have now for the pier.


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## glenn3564 (Nov 12, 2013)

Yerby, I hate to get started with either of those reels surf fishing. I use them very seldom and they are both
working great now but I just want to stick with what I start with. I like the 7000IC3 CT because of the room
for the thumb to operate as I have pretty big hands and I like the idea of having the magnets. I'm just worried
about how long the learning curve would be in getting my thumb to spread the line across the reel good enough
to throw it the next time. I know that with some practice, I would like the conventional better due to the ease
of throwing it and the power conventionals have in hossing in a big fish.


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## yerbyray (May 18, 2010)

I have both lw and non-lw and the curve isn't too bad. Laying the line back on the reel sort of comes "Second Nature" to you as you retrieve. There are ways to male it cast better but all in all if you just do a coarse loading of the reel it should work just fine.

We tend to worry about distance on here when we need to focus on getting the bait in front of the fish.

There is a 7000 on the "marketplace" forum here that would be an awesome reel as it has the CT cage, mags and decent bearings. Plus it is one of the Swedish made and we all know how the chicks dig anything Swedish.


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## glenn3564 (Nov 12, 2013)

Yep. That's where I saw the first one and went searching for a newer one and found it for $134.00. The man has already sold it now but
I tend not to rush into anything until I have done a lot of research and getting opinions from people who actually use the product. That's
why I started the thread. I believe I could learn how to keep the line level in a fairly short time. Maby not perfect but enough to enjoy
catching some fish. I think I will check with some of my fishing buddies at the river and see if one of them has a reel similar to this and
practice with it a bit. If no one has one, I will bring mine back home from the river and take the line leveling part off as you stated and
try that. I have some old Penn reels here. I'll look at them tomorrow because now that I think of it, I believe one of them needs the
pawl replaced. If so, I can take that one off and practice with it if I have enough thumb room. Thanks for the help


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## Shooter (Nov 14, 2004)

One always has to give enough detailed info when asking a question so they can get the correct answer.

A few questions,,, where will you mainly be fishing? for what size fish? how much weight does it take to hold your bait in place where your fishing? what Lb test line will you be needing? 

If your going after very large Drum, Cobia and even shark you will want to use around 20lb test line, that would be fine on the Abu 7000 size reel,, now if your after pups, small stripers all you would need is around 15 to 17 lb test and if you try and fill that 7000 would take a mile of line, you could drop down to a 6500 series reel.

Everyone tries to give great advice but most of the time they give it for where and how they fish,,,, always remember folks, just because 5 oz weight will hold where you fish dont mean it will hold everywhere,,, seen the time I toss 10 oz and watched it roll down the beach faster than I could walk


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## ironman172 (Nov 2, 2013)

I prefer a level wind(no brainer) but use non level wind for bottom bumping offshore....just personal preference ...like anything, if used enough getting line back on the reel right .....becomes second nature.


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## glenn3564 (Nov 12, 2013)

Yerby Ray-Ironman172, Thanks for the good info. Those are the types of responses that HELP! Those are the types of responses
I hopefully explained in my original thread "level wind vs non-level wind". I also advised that I was looking very hard at an Abu 7000ic3 ct
Mag type reel and whether that would be too far a jump from the spinning reels for a starting point with a conventional. I also added that
I was familiar with the 5500. In other words, I ain't no rookie at throwing a conventional reel. In response to Shooter's question, it can be
summed up in very short terms. "Today I am going across the road here to my pond with my ultra light to catch many super nice bass to feed
my family and guests a very big meal tonight." I will be using a blue back rebel about 3"long on 6# mono line. It's fun. You should try it.
Hopefully, I will continue to get good feedback and opinions from others who understand the questions I am asking and not a job application.


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## Shooter (Nov 14, 2004)

Glenn, I didnt see anywhere I called you a rookie or any other term to bring that into question, if you saw that you might need to clean your glasses.
I also own an Abu 5500 and a few 6500 and a 7000 and a 7500 and a box full of other type conventional reels, I ain't a rookie either,,, so I know the big difference between throwing a 5500 with 1 to 3 oz and a 7000 with 8 to 12 oz.

I am guessing at this point no matter what type of advice I would or could give would not be welcome so no need for me to waste my time or yours

PS: I just read your response down on the Lounge post and your way out of line there sunshine. You asked what do most prefer or like the best non-level wind vs level wind,,,, that is such an open ended question there is no way of giving a correct answer with-out more details,,, I was just asking the details, such as what kind of fish your after, how much weight will you be throwing. Because if the person has the info they need they can give you the best answer.
Now if you want to start a pissen match because I was trying to get from you the info that would be helpful to obtain the best answer then just step right up. Now if you want to get some of the best advice from guys that have years and years under their belts don't get that chip up on your shoulder and you may make some very good friends as I have threw P&S and gained tons of knowledge


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## AbuMike (Sep 3, 2007)

Shooter I thought you had a job.......hahahahahaha..Maybe you can be the cupcake passer outer.....LOL...


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## ironman172 (Nov 2, 2013)

I like the Shimano Calcutta 700 a little pricey but a darn fine reel for level wind....also the 400 te's for a medium size reel....friends swear by the Penn torque 200 & 300(non-level wind) and they put all there gear to the max test..... but that is offshore
I don't use the conventionals too often, mostly bottom bumping or trolling....I am a spinning reel user for the most part ....wish you luck with what ever you choose to get....there is a whole bunch of options out there


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## glenn3564 (Nov 12, 2013)

Shooter, First and Formost, I apologize for my sarcasm. It was totaly uncalled for and I hope you will continue to post here as I am new
and need the advice of all who are willing to take their time to give it. Please accept my apology. It truly is not my nature to be sarcastic.
I 
I will not be fishing for large fish like sharks. My interest in getting a level wind-non level wind reel is due to the possibility of using a shock
leader that as I understand now, may be a problem with the level wind with the swivel passing through the eye of the guide. That brings me
to the decision thus far that: 
1. It will be a non-level wind
Next was my concern of laying the line back on the reel. Many have said that that will become second nature so again question 2 has been
answered.
2. It will again be a non-level wind
That brings me to question #3. Which reel should I buy. My thoughts on this is that this will be the only level wind I will ever have due to my
age. I love buying old reels that are in like new condition, otherwise, I will buy new. I have eyes on a 7000 series Abu now that has been
tuned up with all the goodies, but my question here is why would anyone spend so much money and time converting a level wind to a non-
level wind, put all the goodies in it, and then sell it. Something didn't go as it should with it so I will no longer consider that one.
I want to look at the Calcutta Ironman suggested along with the Torque. Right now if I have to buy brand new I am leaning toward the
7000ic3 ct mag. However, if I could find one, I believe I would go with the 6500 Blue Yonder. But they are scarce.
Question #4 is most probably going to depend on question #3. Which rod to buy. So this process is still ongoing. Any other suggestions anyone?
I will say my favorite rod is my 12' Daiwa Sealine Custom Design. It is an older rod so I probably won't find one but it is a M-H, 4-7oz.20-40#
line. Any more suggestions are welcome. Off to check out the Calcutta and Torque


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## DANtheJDMan (Aug 29, 2012)

I have both level wind and non level wind. 

I'm right handed and l learned to throw a spinner holding the rod with my right and cranking with my left. I think it is crazy to watch the guys throw a baitcaster with the right and switch the rod to the left to crank right.

That being said. If I am casting out soaking bait I like the right handed non level wind Akios 656 or old 500 Jigmaster. My left thumb seems to have caught on to laying to line on even. Cranking with the left and laying it on with the right just feels odd to me.

On the other hand, and literally on the other hand, if I am throwing a plug or jigging a bait along the bottom I like using a left handed 5601 or 6501 Abu. It just feels right. I know I loose a little on the cast but prolly not as much as a spinner. 

I also have spinners set up with left hand crank and I think it looks stupid to turn it upside down and crank backwards with your left hand.

I'm just a newby but that is my 2 cents.


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## glenn3564 (Nov 12, 2013)

Now that's something else that hasn't come to mind. Right or Left handed. I have used my spinners last year starting out with
the handle mounted on the right side like my 2 Abu level winds are. But, I changed the spinners over to the left side and it feels
more natural to me for some reason. I think on the level winds my right thumb has better control over the spool to keep it from
tangling than my left thumb. But for some reason, the spinners work better for me when I am reeling in a fish with my left hand
winding and my right arm controlling the tension on the rod and guiding the fish especially at the river where you have logs and
stumps to deal with. I know what you are saying about switching a level or non level from one hand to the other but I think that
would be when you are bass fishing or something. Catfishing, I just throw it and lay it in the rod holder.


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## Don B (Jul 28, 2001)

Hi Glenn,

The guys have provided some good information. After reading the thread I'm a little confused.

Generally, we identify what species we will be fishing for. That determines the terminal tackle, including your mainline.
Your line requirements dictate the reel size. As you get older, you will tend to move away from any oversized equipment.

What are the requirements for you reel. Will it be a throw away or kept for a life time?
If it has a warranty, how will the warranty be serviced? After warranty, how will maintenance and repairs be done.
Companies that come to mind are Penn, Shimano and Daiwa.
These companies have warranty centers and authorized service centers. Penn is well know for its availabily of parts.
Reels you may want to look at are Penn Squal and possibly Torque, Daiwa Sealine 20, 30, 40.
The Sealine reels are relative inexpensive and do have a reputation for reliability. They do not have some of features of the Penn reels.
I do not use Shimano reels and cannot comment.

If you really like your current rod, have you considered using it? Does it meet your new line and lure requirement? If it does, then the addition of two or three guides may make it usable for a conventional reel. Pac Bay Minima X4 guides are very inexpensive and have tested satisifactory. They may not match the type/style of your current guides, but a fixed budget was stated. You can tape on the guides with narrow strapping tape and then test cast your rod with both with your spinning and conventional reels. Adjust the location as need to optimize performance. The new guides will need to be added to keep the line off the rod when the rod is under load. You may want to briefly study "static stress test".

There was concern expressed about the spine. The Sealine rods that I have seen, were not built on the spine. If it is built on spine, then there is usually a weaker spine opposite the primary spine. Building on the weaker spine is satisifactory but less desirable.

Unfortunately, I am very pressed for time and will probably not have time to comment further.
I know the folks on the board are more than competent to answer any additional questions.

Best wishes on your quest,
Don


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## glenn3564 (Nov 12, 2013)

Thanks Don for the comments. With what info that has been provided, I have been able to both include some suggestions that are affordable and
exclude some that, (even though I would love to have), are just too expensive for my budget. I hope to be fishing the surf for smaller pan fish such
as spots, croaker, whitting, sheephead, blues etc.. What I should have mentioned from the "get go" and didn't was that I am really having problems
with my left shoulder. I practiced this afternoon and could only throw 6 times and my longest was 118 yards with my Daiwa PM9000. Normally, I am
at around 127 to 129 with that reel but the cold weather is causing me some pain in that shoulder limiting how much power I can put in it. Bottom
line is I am overloaded with spinning reels and I want 1 good casting reel for distance. I can get past the breakers with the spinners I have without
much pain, but to get out there where I hope to start catching some drum and reds possibly, I want to get into the non-level wind. Based on my
past experience with the 5500's that I have, I can cast them 100 yards with a lot less effort than it would take me to cast one of my spinners 100
yds.. Based on that fact alone, I want to use my spinners in close but have the conventional to get me far enough out for the chance to catch
something bigger even if it is only 130 yards. In conclusion, this past fall I suffered severe pain after going fishing due to having to try to "overpower"
the rod and reel. I don't care about getting any more yardage than 130 that I get now with the PM9000, Emcast Plus 6000, or the Emnblem Pro 5500.
I just want to be able to get up the "next day" and go back fishing. I can easily reach that distance with a lot less effort with a good conventional
combo and get up again the next morning and go again. I just needed to hear from the guys that do this every day what their opinions were so I 
could make an informed decision. I could take any combination that these good people have taken time to help me with and make it work. After all,
if everything works out for me, I will be living down there most of the time this spring and fall.


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## Don B (Jul 28, 2001)

Hi Glenn,

I couldn't stand labeling spools of thread and had to take a short break.

1. You need to deal with the physical problem first, A Doctor of Physiatry may be a good starting point. This type of doctor matches the treatment to the patient in that their function is primarily diagnostic and follow up. Here's a link to the info for the doctor who provides care for me. It may be a little far for you to travel and the link is only to provide information of services that have worked for me. You may want to ask your primary care doctor about a Doctor of Physiatry.
http://www.rehabmedicine.org/Physicians/Takata/takata.html

2. You will probably need to change your casting style.

Well, back to the mill stone.

Don


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## glenn3564 (Nov 12, 2013)

Thanks man I appreciate that. I have already had a diagnosis on it and short of surgery, there's nothing but
medication they can do for me. It works well but I don't like taking pain meds at all. I can fish today, come
home and have pain tonight, take the meds and get up feeling like a champ the next morning---------------at 10:00!
Anyhow, when the weather gets warmer it will go away but not in time for he first of the season. Guess I
should take the meds earlier so I can get up earlier. I don't like surgery. Being put to sleep is risky at my age.


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## Shooter (Nov 14, 2004)

Glenn, no problem bud and now we know your looking to target smaller fish and the areas your looking to get into the best info can flow freely.

A 7000 would be a bit much over kill for the size fish your looking for,,,a 6500 with 12 to 14 lb test would get you closer to where you want to be. There are a few 6500 size reels that will throw as far as you want it to go with-out breaking the bank,,, yes I admit I do have a 6500 that has all the bells, whistles. lights and even a horn added to her but it still has the level wind on it and on a 10' rod will still cast 4 oz over 125 yards (which is great for my poor casting butt) Tommy Farmer (Distance Casting board sponsor) sells some killer reels that will fit just what your looking to do. Now, if you still want to keep a Level wind on your reel thhere are some shock knots that work well and will slip right threw the paw of the reel with-out hanging up and there has been some great post on the best small shock line knots that will work for this project.

I hope just some of the info you have gotten will help and there is always the right set-up if ya just look long enough.


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## glenn3564 (Nov 12, 2013)

Shooter, Quick question when you or someone can get time to answer it. On the shock leader, do you "have" to
use a swivel? That's something I have been confused about. Not especially on this forum but I have read on one
that the reason you don't want a level-wind is because of the swivel. Again, I am a newbie on this but how could
even "expect" a swivel to pass through the eye of the guides or am I just missing something. I have used very
long leaders before but I have never drawn them up into my spool. On a level-non level wind, do you have a 
twisting problem?


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## Fishin'Beast (Jul 30, 2013)

glenn3564 said:


> Shooter, Quick question when you or someone can get time to answer it. On the shock leader, do you "have" to
> use a swivel? That's something I have been confused about. Not especially on this forum but I have read on one
> that the reason you don't want a level-wind is because of the swivel. Again, I am a newbie on this but how could
> even "expect" a swivel to pass through the eye of the guides or am I just missing something. I have used very
> ...


Are you talking about a swivel where you tie the shocker onto the mainline> If so, don't do it as it will rip the inserts out of the guides. It's fine to use one at the end though.


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## glenn3564 (Nov 12, 2013)

Hey! Sorry it took so long to answer but getting ready for the BLIZZARD!
Yes, that's where I was talking about. It seems like a no brainer but like I said,
I'm learning. Thought there might be some wizard kind of swivel that wouldn't
rip your reel and rod to pieces. I have a website saved that shows how to tie
all kinds of different knots for fishing both freshwater and saltwater. Are you
saying though that it would be best to put one near the end where your weight
is to keep it from curling the line?


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## yerbyray (May 18, 2010)

Here is what I would do if fishing for "fish" from either the surf or a pier
My mainline is typically 12-15# test. I then have a shock leader that wraps around the spool four times and goes all the way up the length of the rod and halfway back down. I attach these two lines with this knot








I then tie a swivel on the end of the shock leader.

To that swivel I attach what ever bottom rig is that I would like to use.








I hope that isn't an over simplification to what you are seeking. Disregard the fine print about braid on the picture. I am not an advocate of the stuff as I am not versed in the use of it.

I like having the swivel between the shock leader and the rig since a fish twisting around when reeled in will tangle a line as well as the wave action against the weight.

As to what sort of rig to use is up to the individual but if memory serves me correct, there is a rig that has been mentioned once or twice on this forum in the last two years that seems to get results.....the name evades me right now.

Heck, if you freshwater fish a good ole Carolina rig will work just fine. I also like a fish finder rig.


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## glenn3564 (Nov 12, 2013)

I like that set up. I tie lines together with a knot similar to that but it has one too many
knots. I can't remember the name of it but it holds good but would never work going through
the guides. I use it only to tie rigs on. I use that type rig you are showing but that knot looks
like it would be easy to tie and what's really good about it is that I use the Spiderwire Mono 17#
that it super limber (low memory) and this knot would easily pass through the eyelets without
a problem. I never saw that one before. Thanks. Got some old 6#. I think I will practice that tie 
some while I am trying to stay warm. Thanks heaps. That one deal there solves a lot of my head
scratching. Thanks Yerby


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## Fishin'Beast (Jul 30, 2013)

glenn3564 said:


> Are you
> saying though that it would be best to put one near the end where your weight
> is to keep it from curling the line?


Yes but a lot of people (me included) put the swivel on before you put your leader. I know some people use different rigs where the weight is at the top of the leader or at the bottom. I do mine both ways, weight at the bottom-bait catching, weight at the top-sharking. Btw, there is no swivel on the market to my knowledge that won't tear up your rod and reel.


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## glenn3564 (Nov 12, 2013)

Yep. We use basically the same kind of rig at the river for big cats with the lead at the bottom and swivel on
the top of the rig where it joins the line. I think here we are adding the shock leader in between or at least
that's what it sounds like. I use to take customers on guided fishing trips to Santee and when we couldn't
find the stripers we would use a rig very similar to this to drift for catfish.


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## Shooter (Nov 14, 2004)

See, now were getting somewhere,,,,, A lot of guys love the SLIM BEAUTY knot for attaching the shock line to the main line if they have the line leveler still on the reel because it is such a small tapered knot it passes right threw with-out getting hung up.

Now getting back to level wind or not,,,, yes with-out the level wind on most reels you will get greater distances unless your like some nuts I know (including me) and spend lots of $$$ to get all the extra bearing upgrades to help with speed of the reel. I have some 6500 reels with and with-out the level winds it just depends on what I want to do at the time,,, if I am into a blitz and they aint far off shore I will use one with it and just cast and reel as fast as I can,,, now if I have to have all the distance I can get then I go for the with-out reel and bomb as hard as I can (this normally means a monster birds nest shortly)


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## glenn3564 (Nov 12, 2013)

I like that slim beauty. I just watched it on you tube. Yerby showed me one and I tried it 3 times last
night before I got it but it wouldn't hold because I didn't have a shock leader to work with. It held the
third time but as I said in that reply, I only had some 6 lb. in the house to try it with and was putting
6# to 6# and naturally when I got it to hold, I broke the line. I've got to get me some shock leader and
start practicing these 2 knots. I can't take this laptop with me on the beach so that's why I want to 
get all this down now during the slow season. YALL READY FOR THE ICE!!!!! SPENT MOST OF YESTERDAY
GETTING FUEL FOR THE GENERAC, GROCERIES, ETC. SPENT OVER $200.00. I have an old plantation 
home that was built the second time, (first one burned) in 1909 that I re-modeled in 1994 and we have
12 oak trees around our house here that are in excess of 100 years old. Expect if this ice accumulates
that I will be getting some giant size limbs coming down on us. Love that shade though in the summer.


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