# Newbie question- thread size



## phillyguy (Aug 9, 2010)

What is the difference in thread sizes, which is preferable for a newbie wrapping his first rod. Thanks.


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## dawgfsh (Mar 1, 2005)

Size A thread is small and will make a little tighter wrap. Size D is larger and is quicker and easier to wrap.


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## sunburntspike (Oct 4, 2010)

i started with A,but at the time had no idea ther were different sizes.i use A for all decorative wrapping and under wraps, D for guide binding on offshore and heaver rods,doubled up A for guides on smaller saltwater rods and single A for guides on freshwater rods. there are alot of differences in manufactures threads also,gudebrod A is a bit thicker than fishhawk A for example,not a very noticable difference,but a difference,so keep that in mind also.once you chose a brand,try to stay with it for a couple builds till you've figured out the qualities that you're looking for or not,also make sure to use color preseverer on maderia or sulky rayons,they have a coating on them that reacts unfavorably with epoxyies.happy wrapping


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## phillyguy (Aug 9, 2010)

Thanks for the responses. I'm sure it won't be my last question!


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## Don B (Jul 28, 2001)

Sewing machine thread and metallics are treated with silicon oil that repels epoxy. It would be best to stay away from this type of thread/metallic until you gain a little more experience. I recommend using thread and metallic that does not require color preserver. Each manufacturer has a name for this type of thread. It is generally refered to as NCP. NCP is a trademark of Gudebrod, hence the various names. (NCP, Colorfast, Trucolor, Opaque, and others.)


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## sunburntspike (Oct 4, 2010)

actually don,for a newbie i would recommend using CP on any wrap,helps narrow the learning curve by acting as a light adhesive,eliminating the dreaded pattern crawl.i use CP on all thread,NCP or otherwise,to get more consistent colors throughout the pattern and smaller tie offs also,just my .02


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## Tacpayne (Dec 20, 2008)

sunburntspike said:


> actually don,for a newbie i would recommend using CP on any wrap,helps narrow the learning curve by acting as a light adhesive,eliminating the dreaded pattern crawl.i use CP on all thread,NCP or otherwise,to get more consistent colors throughout the pattern and smaller tie offs also,just my .02


To add to this a little, dont ever ever ever use black NCP it is rarely black after finish is applied it usually turns grey or even a blue color. Finding the right CP can be a real PIA honestly some dont really offer very good color retentions once applied, severely darkening the colors after its applied and dried. Some if applied to think leave a milky look to the wrap when finish is applied. IF your doing a wrap that requires packing dont mix a and d sized threads it will be a packing nightmare. The single most important piece of advice anyone can offer is to TEST, TEST, TEST get a piece of pvc pipe and test cp's epoxies etc...


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## Don B (Jul 28, 2001)

"for a newbie wrapping his first rod."

Keep it simple as possible until experience is gained.

Size A thread for under wraps (if used).
Size D for overwraps.

NCP blocks bleed through of the blanks color through thread (such as nylon). Bleed through is a greater problem with lighter colored thread.

As Tacpayne mentions, color preserver has adverse effects when used on black thread. Black nylon thread does not require color preserver to prevent bleed through. A popular combination is black nylon thread with gold trim. No color preserver is required.

As a first rod, time may be better spent on learning guide and reel seat placement, guide alignment, guide sizes and types.
Some sources of information are the library of rodbuilding.org and numerous youtube videos. 

Regarding testing, here's the source of tubes that I use. Pultruded fiberglass is lowest priced that I have found.
http://goodwinds.com/fiberglass/pultruded-fiberglass-tubing.html


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## sunburntspike (Oct 4, 2010)

unfortunatly i find technique and packing cause more detrimental bleed thru than thread type,not saying there is not a difference,as there are plenty of examples comparing the 2 ,i just find that a well packed and burnished wrap will show negligible differences


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## Don B (Jul 28, 2001)

On his first rod, phillyguy should not have to be concerned with patterns or butt wraps.

Initially, the concern will probably be guide wraps that are put on with the correct tension and are packed tightly. If this is done correctly, there should be little need to burnish the thread. Poorly done wrapping will result in spaces between the wraps and have the lower layer show through.

This is entirely different from bleed through. Bleed through occurs when the nylon thread becomes tanslucent due to the application of epoxy. This effect can be used with great results. At an ICAST event several years ago, I saw a bamboo fly rod that used an amber colored silk to hold the guides. The guides looked like they were simply sitting on the bamboo. The amber colored silk (when translucent) tinted the guide feet to match the bamboo. As an experiment, I made my last rod with a metallic copper under wrap and an orange nylon over wrap. The result was that, in the bright light the wraps looked orange. However in the shade, the wraps started to look more candy apple.


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## sunburntspike (Oct 4, 2010)

sorry don,misunderstood where you were going


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## phillyguy (Aug 9, 2010)

Wow, that's a lot of info. As DonB said, I'm looking to keep it simple simple simple. At this point I don't enough to ask an intelligent question, but when the kit arrives I'm sure I will. Now I just have to build my wrapper.


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## Don B (Jul 28, 2001)

sunburntspike said:


> sorry don,misunderstood where you were going


Absolutely no need to apologize. I can't think of anything more misunderstood than the internet. As phillyguy and others develop their skills, they will be lookin to you and your experience for help.

Mahalo


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## Don B (Jul 28, 2001)

Hey phillyguy,

I would recommend that you start out exactly as you are doing. Something simple and inexpensive (a kit) and develop resources for your specific needs. This forum, books or DVDs, and publications by manufactures (this could be youtube videoes or published instructions) should help in developing your knowledge base.

Best wishes on your new career!


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## Lickinfrogs (Mar 12, 2006)

Phillyguy, I'm not as experienced as most of these guys, but I have wrapped enough rods to learn from my mistakes. I live in Mayfair, so if you want to borrow a book, or need any help just let me know.


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## Hudak (Sep 10, 2007)

You would be amazed at what an afternoon of having someone help you will do for your learning curve. There are many sources for information, tapping into someone's knowledge in person is priceless. Good luck phillyguy, there will always be someone here to answer any question you have.


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## phillyguy (Aug 9, 2010)

Lickinfrogs said:


> Phillyguy, I'm not as experienced as most of these guys, but I have wrapped enough rods to learn from my mistakes. I live in Mayfair, so if you want to borrow a book, or need any help just let me know.


Thanks Lick, I just finished building my wrapper ( I think it came out nice) and I'm sure the questions will come thick and fast when my kit arrives. I bought an American Tackle kit from mudhole.com. For $136 I can't go too far wrong I guess. I'll buy you a beer at Smokeaters sometime and we can talk shop.


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## rodandreel (Jan 7, 2013)

son, these folks are giving you a lot of good info, but keep it simple, first rod one blank one set of guides one handle one color thread. Dark thread regular or ncp. Your origional question was about thread size. For inshore or freshwater use size C. For surf or a boat rod use D. Single wraps one or two coats of finish. Mud Hole has a dvd called rodbuilding 101. You can order it on line or give them a call. I am new to this site but I have been building rods since 1982. E-mail me or send a pm if I can help E.P.


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## Lickinfrogs (Mar 12, 2006)

phillyguy said:


> Thanks Lick, I just finished building my wrapper ( I think it came out nice) and I'm sure the questions will come thick and fast when my kit arrives. I bought an American Tackle kit from mudhole.com. For $136 I can't go too far wrong I guess. I'll buy you a beer at Smokeaters sometime and we can talk shop.


Sounds good to me.


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## phillyguy (Aug 9, 2010)

Ok, time to think about guide layout. The kit included 7 guides plus tip. Seems like one too many for a 10' spinner, yes? Also, the largest guide in the kit is a 30, does that seem reasonable for a standard COF setup or should I get a 40? Thanks.


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## Don B (Jul 28, 2001)

For casting monofilament, the stripper guide should be about 1/2 the size of your reel's spool. Measure the diameter of your spool's front lip and divide by 2.

I believe this is covered in the rodbuilding.org library.


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## sunburntspike (Oct 4, 2010)

did the kit come with a chart?if not you can refer to mudholes catalogue or web site for a spacing chart,what i usually do is set up the guides with the chart,i attach the guides with small rubber bands or zip ties,then i put the reel on and string it up.adjust accordingly to your EYE,believe it or not those 2 orbs the good lord gave us are remarkably consistent tools,if it don't look good it probably won't function good.there are some intresting theroies,calculations and systems for setting up a guide train and all have thier purpose,pros and cons ,but the builders eye and the anglers eye will see a badly built rod quicker than a calculator can do the math


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## phillyguy (Aug 9, 2010)

phillyguy said:


> Ok, time to think about guide layout. The kit included 7 guides plus tip. Seems like one too many for a 10' spinner, yes? Also, the largest guide in the kit is a 30, does that seem reasonable for a standard COF setup or should I get a 40? Thanks.


Correction: guides are as follows 40, 30, 25, 20, 16, 12, 10. I've seen some charts but none specific for larger surf rods.


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## sunburntspike (Oct 4, 2010)

this info from a fuji chart for a 10'er-from the tip.......15.5cm..17cm..18cm..21cm..22.5cm..25.5cm..30cm..33cm,i know this is for 8 guides,but its the only chart i found showing a 10' spinner,i would place the guides starting at the 15.5 measurement and add 2cm to each guide down the blank and see if that will work for 7,then adjust according to the line test with the reel


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## phillyguy (Aug 9, 2010)

Thanks, appreciate the info. I laid out a seven guide setup leaving off the smallest guide and it loads pretty good. Haven't casted it yet tho. I'm curious to see how my setup compares to the measurements you provided, seems like it may be close or at least close enough. thanks again.


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## phillyguy (Aug 9, 2010)

Well, 12 days, a case of beer and several profanity laced tirades later, my first rod is turning in the dryer. If its true what they say, that we learn from our mistakes, I learned a helluva lot the past couple weeks. To say that my wrapping technique needs work is being kind. The trim bands especially gave me fits either unravelling or uneven or cutting them off accidentally with the razor, it was bad. Thanks for the advice, I'm not sure if I have a new hobby or not, but hopefully it will fish better than it looks.


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## Don B (Jul 28, 2001)

The next one will be easier, better, and have less tirades.
Enjoy your new fishing rod.


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## andrew k (Oct 12, 2007)

on your next build try the New Guide Concept System. http://www.rodbuilding.org/library/spinningNGC.pdf

it works and it works well...if dont correctly. i built a 11ft 2-5oz Cast Pro using the Fuji K guides, 30, 20, 16, 12 to tip. there are 12 guides all together plus tip. some may say its too many, but im pretty sure ill out cast most with a 2oz sting silver.

my point is, just remember everyone has their own opinion on how to build a rod. find out what works best for you, which is what i did. i use A for under wraps and D for over. I prefer NCP, but will use Nylon/Maderia when needed and i use CP mixed 1/2 and 1/2 with water. no issues with bleed through if you let it soak in and dry properly. for finish i put the first coat on very thin, just enough to prevent the threads from moving, or seal it (as it was showed to me). second coat normally is the last one. 

there is a lot of good information on the internet, just google it and you will find more then you can imagine.


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## andrew k (Oct 12, 2007)

phillyguy said:


> Well, 12 days, a case of beer and several profanity laced tirades later, my first rod is turning in the dryer. If its true what they say, that we learn from our mistakes, I learned a helluva lot the past couple weeks. To say that my wrapping technique needs work is being kind. The trim bands especially gave me fits either unravelling or uneven or cutting them off accidentally with the razor, it was bad. Thanks for the advice, I'm not sure if I have a new hobby or not, but hopefully it will fish better than it looks.


use a pair of brand new finger nail clippers and you wont have to worry about the razor cutting everything off by accident. just dont use the nail clippers on your nails.


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## Tacpayne (Dec 20, 2008)

andrew k said:


> on your next build try the New Guide Concept System. http://www.rodbuilding.org/library/spinningNGC.pdf
> 
> it works and it works well...if dont correctly. i built a 11ft 2-5oz Cast Pro using the Fuji K guides, 30, 20, 16, 12 to tip. there are 12 guides all together plus tip. some may say its too many, but im pretty sure ill out cast most with a 2oz sting silver.


 I would be one to say that is way to many guides, I would even venture to say with that many guides the recovery of the rod is going to be severly impaired. But I would take you up on your challenge of outcasting me with a sting silver on the same rod:beer:.
I have a 10 ccp 1-4 that I built with micro guides just to prove to someone that I could and it would cast well. And you know what it casts great but it took me 10hrs of test casting and moving around to get the guides right. My point is you can usually make anything work, it may not be ideal or waht most people would say is right, but it will still work. Just go out and have fun with building it will all come together pretty quickly


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## Tacpayne (Dec 20, 2008)

Ive never diluted cp before either and dont see a reason to but be careful if you do, some brands are solvent based and water will not work well...


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## andrew k (Oct 12, 2007)

Tacpayne said:


> I would be one to say that is way to many guides, I would even venture to say with that many guides the recovery of the rod is going to be severly impaired. But I would take you up on your challenge of outcasting me with a sting silver on the same rod:beer:.
> I have a 10 ccp 1-4 that I built with micro guides just to prove to someone that I could and it would cast well. And you know what it casts great but it took me 10hrs of test casting and moving around to get the guides right. My point is you can usually make anything work, it may not be ideal or waht most people would say is right, but it will still work. Just go out and have fun with building it will all come together pretty quickly


it looks there is too many guides but i used the new guide system technique and thats what i figured it out for...but ive never been good with math so who knows.  meet me on the beach some time ill let you throw it.

I use the Flex Coat CP and it says on the bottle you can dilute, thats the only reason i did it. id rather use NCP i think it covers better anyway. 

and i second the " Just go out and have fun with building it will all come together pretty quickly "


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## Tacpayne (Dec 20, 2008)

I have always uses a long discontinued cp so I don't have any real experience with other brands when I finally run out of my brilliance II ill be screwed lol


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## sunburntspike (Oct 4, 2010)

any of the water-based CPs can be diluted,i use carsons and dilute 50-50,eliminates crystals


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## Don B (Jul 28, 2001)

sunburntspike said:


> any of the water-based CPs can be diluted,i use carsons and dilute 50-50,eliminates crystals


Did you mean Cason's?
http://casoncustomrodfinishes.com/index.html

I try to stay away from using CP. When I do use it, Cason is my preferred CP.


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## sunburntspike (Oct 4, 2010)

dats da stuff don,pulled a billy and added a letter ,LOL!


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## Tacpayne (Dec 20, 2008)

sunburntspike said:


> any of the water-based CPs can be diluted,i use carsons and dilute 50-50,eliminates crystals


But Cason's also makes a solvent based which is why I said to be careful to which ones you add water


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## pnarrows107 (Jan 7, 2013)

U may want to either tape the guides on or leave the wraps unfinished and take the rod out for a practice cast
Another area that's confusing is reel seat placement 
Try this, take a yard stick and with the arm that you flip the bail with, measure from your arm pit to the middle of,your palm , this distance is a good starting point where to place the middle of the reel seat
PS I am a newbie also
Tight lines


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## pnarrows107 (Jan 7, 2013)

Tacpayne said:


> Ive never diluted cp before either and dont see a reason to but be careful if you do, some brands are solvent based and water will not work well...


Why does CP seem like watered down Elmer's glue?
I even left some in the cup and it dried exactly like Elmer's?


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