# Special Situation



## Manlystanley (Sep 22, 2010)

What do you guys think of these two Yaks? I have a friend that can get me a good eal on them:

Tarpon 120 Kayak (Sit on top).

Commander 120 (Sit inside)

I would love to get something like this to take my kids out (one at a time) fishing at a local lake or the Chesapeake Bay. But, I do have a special situation. My brother drowned when he was 17, while he was duck hunting (the boat tipped over). This was in January and he was wearing heavy coats, cloths and boots.

So, I'm kind of nervous about even taking my 8 and 10 year old 200 yards off-shore with wearing life preserves. Are these Kayaks:

-- Good for fishing?

-- But, more importantly, safe from tipping over?


Thanks for your help!!

Best Regards,
Stan


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## bigjim5589 (Jul 23, 2005)

Stan, I know several folks who regularly fish from yaks, even in the bay. NO watercraft is "safe" from tipping over. (Remember the big cruise ship several months ago on the news!) It can happen. Yaks, being narrow in design anyway, and any craft that is narrow, may be more prone to tipping over than a wider craft. In good conditions, yaks are as safe as any craft as long as you take all the necessary precautions & preparations. However, conditions on the water can change quickly & get ugly fast sometimes, especially on a large water body like the bay, so you do have to be prepared when it happens. You should also know what to do if you should tip over. IMO, panic, and not knowing how to deal with a bad situation is likely why most folks drown. 

Very sorry to hear about your brother! I've just heard about this type of thing too many times. Winter time conditions, cold water, heavy clothing & small craft often result in disaster, and primarily because no one thinks it can happen to them. And, because of this most are not prepared if it should happen. But it does & getting swamped or tipped over can happen at any time of year. 

I can certainly understand your hesitation. A neighbor of mine when I was kid drowned during a duck hunting trip also. 

I have a Gheenoe, (canoe, but a wide, flatter, more stable bottom) and have taken it out in the bay, but only in the best of conditions & I also don't stray far from the launch area (Sandy Point) and mostly stayed close to the bridge. I'm not that concerned about being out in the open water as I am about larger boats not seeing me, which can be a problem. Mostly, I use it in smaller rivers & creeks, for which it's ideal. I've used it with my kids when they were a lot younger without any problems at all, but not in the bay.

Not trying to discourage you, just trying to point out that bad things do happen, no matter how well you might prepare. The real issue, is being prepared for the worse possible scenario, which not many folks are.


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## Paully (Sep 1, 2005)

OK...here is my .02

Both kayaks are great for fishing, but not real sure about having the kids in it too. (Not sure if you were talking about having them in kayak and you in the other, or in one with you.) 
I have a tarpon 120 and just don't see them being comfortable...not a lot of room for two. Can't say much on the commander being roomy enough...not been in one enough to say. 

If you are talking about the kid(s) being in one and you in the other...go for it. They are both great for the kids. The size of both kayaks are large enough so that they will track well for the kids, and they are easy enough to maneuver the kids will stay interested and not be over worked and get tired to quickly. 
Both kayaks are pretty stable, the commander being more so due to the shape of the hull. You'll have to work at flipping either of them unless you get in some pretty rough water, and even then you'll have to not be paying attention. But with having the kids, I would guess that's not going to be an issue. 
Not sure about the commander's floatation ability once you flip and fill it....but the tarpon will stay afloat if it's upside down. I tested that for my self...my two kids use it. (7 and 9 year olds) 

The only problem I see with the commander is that isn't self bailing... something to keep in mind on the Bay or in the rain. Had a buddy just get rid of a native ultimate for that reason. Both the commander and the ultimate are hybrids and share that "problem". 


I am sorry about your families loss of your brother. It is however a life lesson for your children on the importance of always wearing a PFD...and wearing one that fits. To many time people get a PFD that is comfortable and rated for their weight for the warmer months and don't take into account the thing may not be suited for wearing over colder weather clothing and the added weight of anything other than sorts and a Tshirt. 
I'm not implying that was the case with your brother....not saying that at all. I'm saying, unfortunately I know of more than one of these situations, and not all ended well. One was a child in an adult sized PFD...


Anyhow;
Both of these kayaks will work for the kids and are as safe as kayaking can be. Great kayaks. 

Do take this advise....from one father to another....spend the money on good PFDs that fit your children properly. (and for you too) And spend it again when they out grow them and need a larger one. And make them ware it. 


tight lines 
paully


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## solid7 (Dec 31, 2010)

Are either of those kayaks actually a 2 place?

If they aren't, don't even think about it.

An Ocean Cabo or Malibu 2 is what you want. I've got a Cabo, and it will seat 2 in comfort, and has a mid dip for a small child. (extra seat not required)


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## FishyFingers (Oct 30, 2010)

The big cruise ship that youre talking about hit a rock and that's what caused it to roll (water flooded half the ship causing it to be unstable) so not the best example. Think more along the lines of the over crowed ferries that flip due to having a negative GM


At any rate, the Tarpon gets my vote due to it being self bailing


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## bigjim5589 (Jul 23, 2005)

> The big cruise ship that youre talking about hit a rock and that's what caused it to roll (water flooded half the ship causing it to be unstable) so not the best example. Think more along the lines of the over crowed ferries that flip due to having a negative GM


Yes, it did, but that was one of my points. Bad things happen & it doesn't matter the size of the craft or why. That cruise ship was reported to have hit that rock due to human error and neglect & ended up on it's side regardless of why. Ferries as you say would be another good example. Even on a dead calm day, a larger craft buzzing by can flip a yak, it happens too often & another example of both human error and how it's difficult to be prepared for all possible examples of a worse case scenario. Too many folks do not expect these types of things to happen, as I'm sure the folks on that cruise ship did not, yet they do happen. 

I'll also adamantly agree with what Paully posted about proper PFD's. However, even that should not be the last resort. Anyone using a watercraft, and especially children also should be taught & should practice what to do in case they get flipped over. A watercraft safety course should be part of those lessons.


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## solid7 (Dec 31, 2010)

bigjim5589 said:


> Anyone using a watercraft, and especially children also should be taught & should practice what to do in case they get flipped over. A watercraft safety course should be part of those lessons.


Not being an asshole in a wake producing vessel goes an awfully long way, also.

Course, you can't teach that.


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## bigjim5589 (Jul 23, 2005)

> Not being an asshole in a wake producing vessel goes an awfully long way, also.
> 
> Course, you can't teach that.


Very true, but way too many are!


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## fishnuttz (Jun 27, 2008)

GO with the tarpon I have a drifter . I Assume the kids can swim. I took my daughter to a lake and made her practice self rescue and how to flip the yak back over not being able to touch bottom. JFYI It's easier to do from the end of the yak. That was the hardest part for my daughter . Reentry is a breeze on a drifter and pretty good on a tarpon too from what I've heard. I would definitely start small and work my way up to ocean trips .This comes from somebody that went swimming in waders and a sweatshirt in February NOT FUN! However if you are prepared ( dry clothes in the hatch and a cool head ) You can survive. Be safe and even Safer with kids but it's doable with some practice in my opinion.


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## NC KingFisher (Nov 20, 2011)

Get the tarpon but not the sink.(AKA the sit inside)


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## smlobx (Jul 3, 2009)

I bought the Tarpon 120 after looking at several choices and bought it becausea SOT will not sink (and is self bailing) and is a better fishing platform.

I ALWAYS wear my PFD. We live on a large lake and we take ours down to hatteras and play in the sound which can have some large wakes from the ferries and charter boats that go by. Very happy with the choice.

I would not get a sit inside to go in the bay or ocean without a skirt and a lot of experience...


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## Manlystanley (Sep 22, 2010)

Everyone: Great advice! After reading all your help I think that I need to think about this more. So, I thanked my friend, but turned the deal down. I summarized all your points below. Thanks again!!

-- Plan for flipping over. Make Sure that you practice being flipped, and figure out what to do. Do this with the kids too. (I'm the only guy I know who has "fire drills" with my family (Have had multiple family die due to tragic circumstances). So. you can bet I'll follow this advice.

-- Never take the Kayak out without a proper PFD, rated for the weight for the person (with winter cloths on).

-- Get a SOT and not a SIK. The SOT has self drainage. will always float.

-- Biggest danger in Kayaks is powered boats.

-- Take a watercraft safety course.

-- Better Choices for multiple seat Kayaks:

++ Ocean Cabo: 
** Advantages: Fast, Comfortable, Fairly stable, Fits two adults and one child, lots of people love the kayak for fishing with multiple people.
** Disadvantages: Not as stable as some kayaks, very long and heavy.


++ Malibu 2:
** Advantages: Smaller then the Cabo, turns better
** More difficult to paddle then the Cabo, Less comfortable then the Cabo.



Then, lots of other choices, all with pluses and minuses.....
++ Ocean Kayak Aegean:


++ Odyssey Kayak:


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## JAM (Jul 22, 2002)

*2 Words*

Weight Capacity 

No and No, if you want a tandem get a tandem.. Neither boat will do what you intend to do.. Gett he Right tool for the right job, 2 people = tandem.. The 120 has a cap. of 350 pounds, people and gear.. 
JAM


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## solid7 (Dec 31, 2010)

JAM said:


> Weight Capacity
> 
> No and No, if you want a tandem get a tandem.. Neither boat will do what you intend to do.. Gett he Right tool for the right job, 2 people = tandem.. The 120 has a cap. of 350 pounds, people and gear..
> JAM


Thank you, JAM!

Stanley - the Kayak and Cabo, at around 650 lbs. for people and gear, have some of highest rated capacities for receational kayaks. (we are talking sit-on, not sit-in) The part about stability - you're not going to even notice it unless you have actual experience with other kayaks. They are heavy because they are big yaks. But you're going to have to compromise something for what you are after. Unless you want to dish out some serious bucks for a carbon fiber hull, or start planning for a solo, you'd better start getting used to the idea of heavy kayak. It is what it is. Number 1 rule in engineering - there is no perfect design - only perfect compromises.


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## fishnuttz (Jun 27, 2008)

I take back my statement. I miss read I did not get the to people on one yak. I mistakenly thought it was for the kid :redface:


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## bigjim5589 (Jul 23, 2005)

What kind of weight are you guys talking about with these yaks? I have a Gheenoe, not a yak, it's fiberglass, has a capacity over 600 lbs but the darn thing weighs over 200. It has two swivel seats mounted on it. I can put it in the bed of my truck by myself, but the older I get the harder it is to do. Weight is relative if you can still pick up the yak & carry it around.


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## fishnuttz (Jun 27, 2008)

My drifter has a 500# capacity but a barge to paddle. it weighs about 65#'s


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## solid7 (Dec 31, 2010)

Hard to paddle is a relative term. If, regardless of your size, the yak is easier to paddle then it is to launch, I'd say it's a good vessel. Besides, like I brought up earlier - unless you have a LOT of experience in kayaks, you aren't going to have a clue what's stable, what's easy to paddle, etc.

That being said, here's some sound advice - GO RENT A FEW KAYAKS, and put some miles on! Seriously... how can you make an informed decision without a point of reference???


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## Manlystanley (Sep 22, 2010)

fishnuttz said:


> My drifter has a 500# capacity but a barge to paddle. it weighs about 65#'s


That is what I've read. the more stable the kayak, the harder to paddle and maneuver.

Best Regards,
Stan


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## Manlystanley (Sep 22, 2010)

solid7 said:


> Hard to paddle is a relative term. If, regardless of your size, the yak is easier to paddle then it is to launch, I'd say it's a good vessel. Besides, like I brought up earlier - unless you have a LOT of experience in kayaks, you aren't going to have a clue what's stable, what's easy to paddle, etc.
> 
> That being said, here's some sound advice - GO RENT A FEW KAYAKS, and put some miles on! Seriously... how can you make an informed decision without a point of reference???


What I do: Buy cheap on Criagslist, then if I don't like it sell it for the same price.

Best Regards,
Stan


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## solid7 (Dec 31, 2010)

Manlystanley said:


> the more stable the kayak, the harder to paddle and maneuver.


When maneuvering becomes an issue, install a rudder. Or spend $ and buy a yak made of space age materials.

It's all about priorities.




Manlystanley said:


> What I do: Buy cheap on Criagslist, then if I don't like it sell it for the same price.


Sounds OK if you can get away with it. It's a gamble, but yours to make.


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## FishyFingers (Oct 30, 2010)

fishnuttz said:


> I take back my statement. I miss read I did not get the to people on one yak. I mistakenly thought it was for the kid :redface:


I did too. There's a couple of demo days coming up soon as well. Go paddle then and see what works for you.


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## Manlystanley (Sep 22, 2010)

FishyFingers said:


> I did too. There's a couple of demo days coming up soon as well. Go paddle then and see what works for you.


Where will the demo be at??


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## bbcroaker (Jan 6, 2005)

Not all stable kayak are necessarily hard to paddle the Ocean Kayak Trident 15' is rated at 500 -550 lbs it paddled very well and was good in the chop and I never flipped mine in the rough waters. It is 29.5" wide versus some like the Big Game 33-34" which makes them slow.It is kind of cumbersome to transport and launch and like a fish out of water on land. 

I believe if I carried a child with me in a yak I would consider a 2 person kayak or smaller yak of their own like a Tarpon 100 which is 10" long and pretty stable. If they had their own yaks i would always keep them close and always always wear ( no exceptions)their good fitting good quality kayaking PFD.s I think that would be the most practical and the safest for your usage.
Oh and I'm truly sorry for the loss of your brother and really glad to see that you are very safety conscious. .


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## ChuckFinley (Jun 26, 2009)

One other thing..plan for getting wet no matter the conditions...Everyone I know who teaches kayak fishing and kayaking in general say that.

What does that mean?

Fast Dry clothes in warm water and weather (e.g. Nylon/other man-made fibers). In cold water (hypothermic conditions--water temp+air temp <120 degrees) fleece layer (insulates even when wet) under dry wear; either paddling jacket/pants or a dry suit (expensive but preferable. Some anglers will say breathable waders + dry top is acceptable; and I probably will do that if the water temp is over 50 degrees; and the air temp over 50 degrees. But I also wouldn't be paddling alone in those conditions either. 

They also say to never, ever wear cotton under any circumstances. Cotton does not insulate when wet.


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## FishyFingers (Oct 30, 2010)

Manlystanley said:


> Where will the demo be at??


I know ARC and Wild River is having theirs soon. When I first posted about demo day I didn't know you were in md. There's bound to be a place near you that sells yaks. (I don't mean like bass pro or dicks) I'd recommend going to go see them and asking if they have a demo day or if they know anyone who does


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## Aaron T (May 9, 2000)

Manlystanley try looking at http://www.snaggedline.com/index.php. You can probably find demo days from a local Maryland shop here or at least some kayakers close by that may let you try their own yaks. Utilize and provide help on both sites because we just cant get enough fish talk.


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## Manlystanley (Sep 22, 2010)

The great think abouyt this forum, is that I comeback and read and re-read the various advice. I am leaning towards he Malibu II: http://www.oceankayak.com/kayaks/angler_kayaks/malibu_two_xl_angler/ . 

Another option is the Tarpon: http://www.wildernesssystems.com/pr...recreational_tarpon/tarpon_130t_recreational/

I'm going to be going to a few local places to check them out. 

What I like about them, is that I can take it out solo as well. 

Thanks!

Best Regards,
Stan


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## Jester86 (Oct 8, 2012)

Stan, I'm not sure if you're interested in the idea or not but I recently bought a Hobie Adventure Island and love it.. I can haul all kinds of gear, people, etc. I have sat on one tramp with my girlfriend on the other and had no issues at all sailing. It is also nice to have so many modes of transportation: paddle, peddle, sail. You can also easily pull another yak behind the AI. I bought my AI used and for a steal.. <<$2k If you keep an eye on ebay/craigslist (use searchtempest) you can find some deals on the island series yaks. There is also a Tandem Island which is 18' long and 10' wide with the amas (outriggers) out.. needless to say these yaks are STABLE in the water. I stand up and walk around mine most of the time I'm fishing. That said the stability does come at a slightly longer setup time. It probably takes me 10-15 min to get the amas connected, trampolines tight, fish finder and rod holders mounted.. but I can be out on the water for 12+ hours and never get sore or tired of the seating position. If you are interested I would advise doing a little youtubing to get an idea of what these things can do. There are a couple videos of people hauling 4 adults on a single Tandem Island (2 seated, 2 on tramps). You can usually find a used TI with trailer for $3500-$4000


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## Ronaulmtd (Feb 8, 2011)

The more experience and miles I put under the hull, the more I understand that what I thought I knew was an illusion- a large contingency of the Maryland kayak crew on Snaggedline.com are Hobie mirage drive owners- I started out with a Ocean Prowler 13 and after a year I bought a Hobie Outback from an Army helicopter pilot deploying to the war- 12 foot long 33 inches wide- great stability (if you are well balanced) you can stand and cast out of it- with the mirage drive it is fast- on a long trip from the launch the paddle folks fall well behind and we are usually fishing for at least a half an hour or so before they arrive on location-


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## Manlystanley (Sep 22, 2010)

Jester and Ron: Great advice, thanks! I just got an offer I could not refuse, for a Widerness Systems Ride 135. It's a one seater, but this is beyond a sweet deal (half price for new). So, if it comes though, I'll grab it. Then I can get some experience with Kayaking and then think about a tandem.

I have put in some bids on a Hobie's on both Ebay and Cragslist but nothing has come up so far. I'll keep looking for a tandem though.

I love the idea of sailing with a AI. I'll keep that in the back of my mind--if this Ride 135 deal does not come though. If it does, I could use it for a year or so, then sell it.

I never even thought of getting an AI: http://www.hobiecat.com/kayaks/mirage/adventure-island/ . Man, you did get a seet deal on that bad boy!! I need to think about this.......

Best Regards,
Stan


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