# In the end, everyone will lose with game fish bill



## obxfisherman (Feb 4, 2011)

Good job Russ!

http://outerbanksvoice.com/2011/03/26/in-the-end-everyone-will-lose-with-game-fish-bill/


Russ Lay | March 26, 2011
It’s been just a few weeks since pictures and video of massive rockfish kills from commercial trawlers made their way into the mass media up and down the Atlantic coast. No one can look upon such a scene without shaking their heads and wishing for a remedy to prevent a repeat performance.

House Bill 353, introduced in the state legislature in March is the spawn of such problem-solving. The legislation is decidedly minimalist: It simply designates three species of fish — striped bass, red drum, and spotted sea trout as game fish — meaning they are unavailable for commercial harvesting or sale.

The bill sets aside $1 million, to be doled out over three years, as mitigation payments to commercial fishermen for loss of this resource and as compensation for investment in fishing gear.

HB 353 is overkill and should not become law. Moreover, the recreational fishing community, effusive in its support for HB 353 on blogs, discussion boards and press releases appears to have no idea the Pandora’s Box that will be opened if this bill is ever signed into law.

Commentary
When news of the proposed legislation came to light, several contradictions were immediately apparent. The most glaring concerned the bill’s four primary sponsors and the political affiliation of three of those legislators.

Reps. Daniel McCormick (Yadkin, Surry, Iredell), Dan Ingle (Alamance) and Ruth Samuelson (Mecklenburg) are all Republicans. It’s hard to wrap one’s head around the fact that the GOP, which prides itself in supporting small business, opposing increased regulation,and holding back the more aggressive elements of the environmental movement, would endorse a bill contrary to those core conservative values.

The fourth sponsor, Rep. Rick Glazier is a Democrat. All four, however, represent inland constituencies (suburban Winston-Salem, Burlington, Fayetteville, and Charlotte). This begs a question so obvious I won’t bother to pose it.

The bill is diametrically opposed to the state’s official position in promoting North Carolina seafood sales. The state’s Department of Agriculture has plastered the countryside with billboards and filled the airwaves with advertisements encouraging residents and visitors to demand and consume North Carolina seafood. Locally, we are pushing the Outer Banks Catch initiative, and many other coastal counties are implementing similar programs. Tax dollars wasted if HB 353 prevails.

Take speckled trout, rockfish and red drum out of seafood stores and restaurant menus and we have lost a large part of our culture and significant components of our local “catch” Think Louisiana without red fish (red drum) on the menu.

It is difficult to understand why Republicans and the recreational fishing community would invite more government regulation into their industry and embrace a bill that goes further than demands set by the more radical and litigious Southern Environmental Law Center and the Defenders of Wildlife.

In a joint letter to the N.C. Marine Fisheries Commission after the rockfish uproar over discards, the two groups merely asked the MFC “to not re-open trawling for striped bass unless it has clear and enforceable restrictions in place to prevent this wasteful practice. The commission must also consider reallocation of striped bass to other commercial fishing methods that produce less waste.”

The debate between recreational and commercial interests centers largely on which group creates greater fish mortality and bycatch waste. State data indicate recreational anglers kill more striped bass than commercial interests, an argument recreational lobby groups reject as faulty.

Recreational advocates should take a cue from the ORV debate on Hatteras Island. Groups opposing beach driving have demonstrated a willingness to use data also cited as “faulty” and still were able to win over a federal judge.

If HB 353 succeeds in taking out commercial interests, it is almost a certainty these groups will turn their guns on recreational anglers, citing the same “faulty” data recreational anglers reject. Local bait and tackle shops, fishing hobby groups, and other recreational angling interests should be alarmed at the heavy-handedness of HB 353.

The saddest part of HB 353 are the entrenched attitudes of concerned parties on both sides. Fisheries management is so fragmented a college of feng shui masters would likely fail in crafting balanced rules and creating some semblance of harmony among competing interests.

A quick rundown: federal vs. state, scientists who help set quotas vs. the entire fishing community, state vs. state as annual quotas are divvied, commercial vs. recreational, large commercial operations vs. smaller companies; commercial recreational charters vs. weekend charters vs. solo interest groups. Many of these factions have their own interest groups.

The groups often view each other as players in a zero-sum game. The goal is not simply to win, but to create a win where the other side convincingly loses. The parallels to the ORV debate on Hatteras are striking. And just as devastating.

Commercial and recreational fishing are major components of our economy. While there are legitimate concerns about commercial over-harvesting of our fisheries, this bill will only serve to drive more nails into the coffin of an already endangered industry.

The commercial industry did itself no favors by discarding thousands of rockfish in the presence of so many cameras, especially in an era of instant and viral communication. Commercial fishing interests also mishandled their public relations when the rockfish kills hit the mass media. In the place of apologies and concern, there was either silence or a defense of discards as “a normal practice.”

But there are other ways to remedy the discards that sparked HB 353. One solution is to eliminate the daily quotas and allow commercial boats to harvest as many fish as they can until the quota is exhausted. Another solution would be to allow overladen boats to legally transfer their excess to other licensed commercial vessels, which the state allowed at the end of this winter’s ocean trawl season.

Even banning trawl nets and requiring commercial fishermen to harvest with hook and line is a better solution than removing these three species from commercial harvesting.

If the recreational fishing groups were smart, they’d join in the opposition to HB 353. Because once the commercial fisheries are gone, the recreational community will be the last remaining target for environmental groups to overwhelm.

That’s one fight weekend anglers will lose — as they lack the money and political connections to take on the environmental groups. Ask the people of Hatteras Island. They know how that story ends.


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## DERFM (Jun 19, 2004)

a lot to think about ....


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## 1SHOT1KILL (Jul 31, 2010)

Hate to be the one to tell you Mr. Lay, but Red Drum is a game fish in LA.

I am not sure what to make of this HB 353. The only thing I am sure of is that for the last 30 years or so, it has been the rec fisherman who has been shafted and taking it in the rear end, while the comms have either been given a free pass totally or left very lightly. I would like to see a little leveling of the field, so to speak, but still want the comms to be able to make a decent living as well.


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## PoBenda (Sep 6, 2010)

I agree with you, this is overkill. HOWEVER, the Government is not responsible for this problem.

We all b*tched and cried at the Gov. when the commercials were dumping Striper over the side, but did any one question the morality of a commercial boat that would do something so atrociously wrong?

Since we the people will not self regulate, the government is forced to step in. Whenever the government steps in, this is what happens.

So ask yourself this, is this really the governments fault? Or are the bastards who wasted such a vital and precious resource at fault. 

Once again, I agree with you, but after witnessing such a horrible waste of something so dear to me this winter I cannot point the finger at the Gov. alone.


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## BaitWaster (Jan 8, 2004)

Killing the stripers and being forced to dump them because of a trip quota with a gear not designed to catch small amount of fish is wrong. That gear needs to be taken out of the mix and replaced with something a lot more selective and less wasteful like hook & line. 

But what does that have to do with gamefish? 

This will hurt a lot more than the few trawlers that dumped fish. Punish the many for the sins of the few. The Consent Decree was all about this. One knucklehead driving recklessly on the beach, a few NPS workers who failed to file the original ORV plan in the Federal Register, a few lawyers and one willing judge has hurt many, many thousand. 

NC commercial quota is a little over 480,000 pounds. Since the fish haven't been around in state waters the last couple of years, over 850,000 pounds or perhaps 40,000 fish were not caught, fish that the managers say could safely be harvested. This dump was wasteful but in no way will jeopardize the striper stock. 

While these couple of thousand fish (pick a number) that were dumped is unacceptable waste and we should learn and not repeat this, I have a hard time understanding what it has to do with gamefish. 

Stripers are recovered even with commercial harvest, a quota has been frozen for 20 years. Red drum are essentially recovered in NC with a cap that hasn't changed in a decade. Not exactly a pass for the commercials when they get reigned in and don't benefit from the recovery. And we are just now developing a plan for speckled trout. 

And given the state of the economy, I have a hard time believing that there will be hoard of recs flocking in just because gamefish is on the books for these three species. 

I just can't seen addition due to subtraction. 

And red drum is gamefish in Louisiana. Their blacked redfish in the restaurants are from aquacultured fish. Red drum are available farm raised but all the ones that die in flounder nets will be dumped, just like those stripers, because of this law. Wasted.

You won't see masses of fish floating but, if you put them together and no doubt they will be in the thousands, I would hope you would have the same outrage.


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## Drumdum (Jan 6, 2003)

> HB 353 is overkill and should not become law. Moreover, the recreational fishing community, effusive in its support for HB 353 on blogs, discussion boards and press releases appears to have no idea the Pandora’s Box that will be opened if this bill is ever signed into law.


 My case exactly....


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## Garboman (Jul 22, 2010)

There is a book "Striper" by John Cole that was written in the 1980's and it parallels the current controversy but is based on the Long Island NY haul seine fishery and its conflicts with the "Sports" in the early 1960's.

In my mind it is a wonderful book as it is written from the standpoint of participation of Mr. Cole as a young member of a Beach Crew and then Mate on a Montauk Charter boat in the early 1970's and his evolution to that of a retired Maine newspaper Editor that took great satisfaction in boating and releasing a few schoolies on a summer's day trip off of Long Island shoals in the late 1980's.........................

It is only the other man's greed that is the problem.......

What if the underemployed rec's don't come flocking to the OBX as the Baitwaster posed? 

What if all the OBX fish markets are closed, and the Black Pelican served only Vietnamese cultured Shrimp ? 

If you are only eating farm raised LA Redfish...........might as well order out from Red Lobster and save the gas money to the OBX.

Odds are that Stripers from last winter that created the "Webstorm" were birthed in a Maryland river and started life as a Rockfish in the Potomac or another tributary of the Chesapeake.

Hows about a new lawsuit from the State Maryland prohibiting the taking of "Their" fish in the instance the "Maryland Rockfish" happens to wander within three miles of the NC coastline and fall prey to the mighty Recs from SE NC and no longer protected by the Feds?


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## jeffreyweeks (Feb 5, 2009)

Nonsense. The MFC had a chance to fix the striper problem and did not, because the COMMERCIAL members on the MFC blocked it...and even voted to allow more of the same. Recs have tried to fix these problems for years and been blocked by comms on these boards...there in NO reason to think that those in charge will change in the future.

Most other states with a coast have these protections and none of these dire environmental predictions have come true. These are just excuses made up since the matter is before the legislature.

Folks will say anything now to prevent this bill. But history does NOT back them up. the comm lobbyists have been shameless in NC for decades at blocking any type of compromise and they will not change now whether this bill is defeated or passed. There are decades we can go on. 

These excuses and misdirections are silly. Plenty of other states have gamefish status while still have commercial fishing and without the sky falling. History and the example of gamefish elsewhere show that these excuses are hollow and misdirection.


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## BaitWaster (Jan 8, 2004)

More of the same? Not exactly as they added a 30 minute tow time restriction. 

And the Director has only opened the trawl season for one day and have heard no reports of wastage. And the DMF was charged with creating a white paper on developing a hook and line commercial fishery. 

Recs are always trying to fix perceived problems in the commercial industry but rarely do they address issues that might personally affect them. Garboman pegged it perfectly when he said "It is only the other man's greed that is the problem." 

Sounds your rational for gamefish is punishment for actions by MFC and preferred policy stated by NCFA. This is a great example misdirection. 

And what will be the recs' response if gamefish takes effect and red drum are tossed out of flounder nets dead as regulatory discards? Will these concerned recs will say it's not a problem as it the cost of doing business in a gamefish world? I have a guess where this will go.


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## surf rat (Jun 30, 2004)

I say close commercial netting in N.C. and Va.


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## twitch (Jan 29, 2008)

BaitWaster said:


> And what will be the recs' response if gamefish takes effect and red drum are tossed out of flounder nets dead as regulatory discards? Will these concerned recs will say it's not a problem as it the cost of doing business in a gamefish world? I have a guess where this will go.


Jeffery and the gamefish gang know that the ill informed public will do their work for them when it comes to the waste created through the gamefish bill in other fisheries.


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## OBXPC (Dec 17, 2009)

surf rat said:


> I say close commercial netting in N.C. and Va.



I say close the hot ditch to all charter fishing and make it c & r only from nov to april.

(just kiddin, about the c&r part anyway)


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## BaitWaster (Jan 8, 2004)

OBXPC said:


> I say close the hot ditch to all charter fishing and make it c and r only from nov to april.


Why C & R? Why not off limits to all if the goal is to protect the fish?


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## OBXPC (Dec 17, 2009)

It was an inside joke. I'm sure plenty on here will get it.


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## Mr.P (Sep 1, 2009)

I think they choose one of the 3 species and give it gamefish status. Then see if the population of that species increases. If the population shoots through the roof then you will know that coms have a major impact on them. If it stays the same then you know recs have a major impact on them. I would personaly like to see menhaden as a gamefish then a 3 of these species would benefit.


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## pier_man0909 (Feb 28, 2006)

jeffreyweeks said:


> Nonsense. The MFC had a chance to fix the striper problem and did not, because the COMMERCIAL members on the MFC blocked it...and even voted to allow more of the same. Recs have tried to fix these problems for years and been blocked by comms on these boards...there in NO reason to think that those in charge will change in the future.
> 
> Most other states with a coast have these protections and none of these dire environmental predictions have come true. These are just excuses made up since the matter is before the legislature.
> 
> ...


what you seem to have forget jeffrey is that the season opened back up with a vote of 6-2. I believe 2 out of the 3 recreational members and the scientist on the board voted to open it back up. you cant just blame everything on the commercial members of the mfc. I dont know what you meant exactly by "most other states with a coast have these protections". if you are referring to the stripers, you are wrong. from sc to me, 5 states with a coast have game fish status while 6 still allow commercial fishing for stripers. I believe specks only have game fish status in 3 states from va to texas.


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## OBXPC (Dec 17, 2009)

OBXPC said:


> I say close the hot ditch to all charter fishing and make it c & r only from nov to april.
> 
> (just kiddin, about the c&r part anyway)


Ok, i was just kiddin about closing the hot ditch area to charters too. Just messin with ya surf rat.


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## PoBenda (Sep 6, 2010)

Blaming a badly written law for immoral behavior is like blaming rape on a scantily clad woman, its total f*ckin' bullsh*t. :--|

Forget it, with the Zombie Apocalypse on the way none of this really matters does it?


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## Drumdum (Jan 6, 2003)

surf rat said:


> I say close commercial netting in N.C. and Va.


 Eventually it will be done.. One step at a time.. It works just like closing beaches up and down the east coast.. Yeap,the sky is falling,tell that to some of the keys guides...


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## core sounder too (Mar 22, 2011)

Jeffrey Posted 
"Nonsense. The MFC had a chance to fix the striper problem and did not, because the COMMERCIAL members on the MFC blocked it...and even voted to allow more of the same. Recs have tried to fix these problems for years and been blocked by comms on these boards...there in NO reason to think that those in charge will change in the future."

The MFC is made up of 9 members, 3 are recs, 3 are commercials, 1 scientist and 2 at large. One of the at large is the wife of a fishing guide. Tell us how the 3 commercials are able to intimidate the other 6 members into voting pro commercial on these issues. What Jeffrey and members of the NC CCA fail to realize is this. All recs in NC do not neceassrily kiss arse or dance to the tune of the CCA. When the recs on the commission hear the arguements and some times support the commercials on some issues then the CCA get bent out of shape and push for gamefish or make other threats and acts like a bunch of spoiled children. With proper management their is enough for everyone, maybe not enough for some but enough for most of us. I also don't like the fact that such groups s the CCA and CFRG will jump in bed with the diffrent hugger groups in order to increase their influence. Never trust people with this type of character. Like the Drumdum said, "one step at a time" Thats how one is able to swallow an elephant but with one bite at the time.


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## Aaron T (May 9, 2000)

I have been trying to follow all of the posts on this subject and even commented on one. I must say that after reading all of the posts I am very impressed with the knowledge and passion of the members of this board. My comment was posted partly in haste and as a reaction to the striper kills from the commercial boats earlier this year. I think Drumdum especially has mad excellent points on the inner working of government regulations spawned by special interest groups. Allthough I am disgusted over the dumping of dead fish, even if it was not stripers, I do see the dark side of passing the bill. First and foremost is that I dont want the government to regulate me. I dont need their help, and I dont want it. I always depended on myself first, and if things got out of control I could depend on my family. Since PETA decided to move their headquarters into my local area I see how these activist groups can manipulate people and regulations. I have never wanted to own an automatic weapon, but would never support any regulation or ban on them, because of the exact points drumdum has mentioned here. I did not see this situation from that light. I still hold the commercial fisherman responsible for their acts and ultimately for bringing this attempt at regulation upon themselves. I know they work hard trying to make a living and that is not easy. I just hate to see waste and greed make the things I have enjoyed in ly life at risk for not being there for my children and grandchildren. We as humans have almost destroyed everything we touch, and government regulations only hinder real progress. Maybe the right thing to do is get together as outdoorsman, use the real scientific data and propose regulations that work rather than wait for someone else to force it upon us. I know this is a big wish but if we do not govern ourselves it will be done for us. I have a quote that I use on my e-mail signature, 
“When the people fear their Government, there is tyranny; 
when the Government fears the people, there is liberty”. 
- Thomas Jefferson


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## 1SHOT1KILL (Jul 31, 2010)

I say lift all restrictions and fish the f***king fish to extinction. That way no one will have anything to bitch about in a couple years.


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## Bullred (Mar 13, 2010)

Word on the water is hb 353 has grabbed the bait and is now smoking some drag towards passage!


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## drumchaser (Jan 14, 2003)

Bullred said:


> Word on the water is hb 353 has grabbed the bait and is now smoking some drag towards passage!


30-1


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## Drumdum (Jan 6, 2003)

*If it does..*



Bullred said:


> Word on the water is hb 353 has grabbed the bait and is now smoking some drag towards passage!


 Smile now,cause if you have no children it probably won't have any effect on you,just them...


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## BaitWaster (Jan 8, 2004)

Committee meets tomorrow. No audio feed I can find. We shall see.


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## Bullred (Mar 13, 2010)

Marc has left the house. You boys from Dare County are confident. The fat lady ain't singing yet.


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## BaitWaster (Jan 8, 2004)

Dare County? 

If talking about me - born, raised and lived all but 2 years in Wake County. Life-long touron or dingbatter depending on if I'm in Dare Co. or Carteret Co.


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## Drumdum (Jan 6, 2003)

Bullred said:


> Marc has left the house. You boys from Dare County are confident. The fat lady ain't singing yet.


 There is plenty that Basnight has done that many are not pleased with,plenty in fisheries that needs to be changed,but going to bed with enviros to acheive your agenda ain't the way.. Eventually you'll find that out... Not confident because they are politicians.. Hopefully common sense will prevail,although as I just said,they are politicians..


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## Bullred (Mar 13, 2010)

BaitWaster said:


> Dare County?
> 
> If talking about me - born, raised and lived all but 2 years in Wake County. Life-long touron or dingbatter depending on if I'm in Dare Co. or Carteret Co.


Not talking about you Baitwaster. I was referring to the fine gentlemen from the obx. And Drumdum you are correct they are polititians.


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## twitch (Jan 29, 2008)

Bullred said:


> Marc has left the house. You boys from Dare County are confident. The fat lady ain't singing yet.


Confident, no. Just hopeful the fine folks in Raleigh are able to wade through the BS of this being pushed as a jobs creations bill. You have to tell everyone how this bill is gonna preserve 50,000-1000,000 jobs in coastal communities(that were in no danger of being lost before this noble crusade), or how is it a live or die situation for 15,000 others.....?? I'm not sure if our reps from Western NC that sponsored the GF bill are smarter than their Eastern counterparts or just more gullible and easily led.


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## Bullred (Mar 13, 2010)

50,000-1000,000 . So there are 1 million commercial fishermen in NC? Again the big 3 represent 2 percent of the total take. You guys can still net up flounder, hardheads, blues, croakers, blow toads, oyster catchers, spots and everything else that swims besides turtles. Gonna be a waiting game either way.


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## twitch (Jan 29, 2008)

Bullred said:


> 50,000-1000,000 . So there are 1 million commercial fishermen in NC? Again the big 3 represent 2 percent of the total take. You guys can still net up flounder, hardheads, blues, croakers, blow toads, oyster catchers, spots and everything else that swims besides turtles. Gonna be a waiting game either way.


I'll post the link to the article so you can see the info for yourself. It sounds like Darrell McCormick and the Committee on Commerce and Jobs Development are using the same math that McCormick used when filing his taxes several years ago..

http://www.northcarolinasportsman.com/details.php?id=1792


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## drumchaser (Jan 14, 2003)

Blow toads are awesome table fare, gotta be a market out there for them.


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## Bullred (Mar 13, 2010)

twitch said:


> I'll post the link to the article so you can see the info for yourself. It sounds like Darrell McCormick and the Committee on Commerce and Jobs Development are using the same math that McCormick used when filing his taxes several years ago..
> 
> http://www.northcarolinasportsman.com/details.php?id=1792


Yea I already read it. Like you said. They are politicians. lol


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## BaitWaster (Jan 8, 2004)

A little glitch in the bill as written. 

If NC uses license money to pay out the $1,000,000 over 3 years to compensate commercials for loss of income, NC could possibly lose $15-20 million per year in Wildlife and Sport Restoration funding.


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## Drumdum (Jan 6, 2003)

BaitWaster said:


> A little glitch in the bill as written.
> 
> If NC uses license money to pay out the $1,000,000 over 3 years to compensate commercials for loss of income, NC could possibly lose $15-20 million per year in Wildlife and Sport Restoration funding.


 Oh,promise they will find $ for the wildlife,you know birdies.... As far as sport restoration,really haven't seen any results since the license fee has been in effect.. At least Va has a few boat ramps to show for it... As of yet still don't see the extra jobs that will be created,can't really see where it is going to change anything,except the livelyhoods of some... He put some of the figures through the washing machine,looks as though those that stold our beaches from us are doing math classes......


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## KB Spot Chaser (Nov 19, 2009)

My way of thinking is fish do not grow in coolers, and by the way the regs in place on the reds would not be that way had they not been stacked on the beaches by the hundreds before I was born. What do ya think about that " talk about ruining a fishery for your children". I am not on here to state that he did or she did because there are bad apples in both baskets and we all know what that gets us. I myself have seen poor judgement used on both sides of the fence. Gamefish bill our not there will still be a few out there who make us all look bad as a group collectively. I feel we all need to come together as a fishing community, put reasonable regs. in place which will benefit the fisheries. What will happen if this gamefish bill does pass and every commercial fisherman out there decides that it is no longer worth setting nets, and decides to pull trawls for shrimp. There you have it, what looks good on paper might not always be the best thing. Hey though what do I know?, I am just an irrigation man with a little common sense who tries to look otusides the lines of the "best available science".


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## Drumdum (Jan 6, 2003)

KB Spot Chaser said:


> My way of thinking is fish do not grow in coolers, and by the way the regs in place on the reds would not be that way had they not been stacked on the beaches by the hundreds before I was born. What do ya think about that " talk about ruining a fishery for your children". I am not on here to state that he did or she did because there are bad apples in both baskets and we all know what that gets us. I myself have seen poor judgement used on both sides of the fence. Gamefish bill our not there will still be a few out there who make us all look bad as a group collectively. I feel we all need to come together as a fishing community, put reasonable regs. in place which will benefit the fisheries. What will happen if this gamefish bill does pass and every commercial fisherman out there decides that it is no longer worth setting nets, and decides to pull trawls for shrimp. There you have it, what looks good on paper might not always be the best thing. Hey though what do I know?, I am just an irrigation man with a little common sense who tries to look otusides the lines of the "best available science".


 I'm with ya on the comment you just made.. Regs are important,and "best available science" should not be labeled that,it should be labeled as "a guess" or maybe just a "spin" put in place from OLD INFO like on seabass and red snappers..

All that being said,the gamefish bill doesn't just make us look bad to one group,by the folks pushing it being in bed with special interest groups,it writes our epitaph as fishermen period...... Trust me,as beach fishermen on Hatteras Island we have all found out the hard way what these groups are capable of....


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## BaitWaster (Jan 8, 2004)

Sometime it should be properly labeled " best available science *we chose to use*"


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