# Line behind spool .... ARGGGGGHHHH



## Arnav (Dec 17, 2020)

Akios, F15 Nitron
While the bite was down, I did a lot of practice casting at the beach with just a weight.
Wind was a challenge but casts were improving as confidence built and mags reduced.
Got to the point a bit of fluff was building and on 3 occasions, the line got between the spool and the frame.
17 lb. Berkely mono. Couldn't believe there was enough of a gap for .015" line to get in there.
Threw a cheap Okuma in the bin because of that, didn't expect it with a $300 reel.
Dang cheapass plastic, I recon. Or ? ? ? ?
Will maybe be all metal for me from now on.
Fathom II might be next.
Anyone else had this issue with the F15 ?
Fatter, 20lb line maybe to fix ? 30 ?
Thanks


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## BeachBob (Aug 27, 2010)

The Nitron reel is of top shelf fishing quality. Have you over-spooled the reel? Have you properly adjusted spool play, to keep the spool-to-frame gap as narrow as possible? Switch to a more supple copolymer mono mainline such as Sufix Tritanium Plus 17# (.016) or Sakuma 18# (.015).


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## pcbtightlines (Aug 9, 2020)

I think Bob hit the nail on the head …a couple other options are Sufix Superior 15 or 20 or Berkley Pro Spec Chrome 16lb or 20lb


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## Arnav (Dec 17, 2020)

Hi Bob. PCB
Spool filled to where, when level, the leader knot will clear the frame everywhere. Can't afford a hump tho.
Spool play is from barely free to just a few thousandths of an inch.

I don't see how switching to the lines you guys mention would make much difference, other than the larger dia., but will try it.
Thanks


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## BeachBob (Aug 27, 2010)

Where does the main line fill up to on the spool flanges?

Are you always winding in the line under tension and doing a decent line lay?

A more supple line will be more forgiving.


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## Arnav (Dec 17, 2020)

Still a little side wall left, but pretty full, will get a pic later.
Pretty even lay, always under a pinched pressure.
Forgiving is what I need .... always.
Thanks


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## Garboman (Jul 22, 2010)

Put 20 pound line of the reel. Neon Fire Sufix is my new favorite 20 pound line.

If you want forgiving a thicker line is much more forgiving especially for fishing.

Leave 3/16" of free space on your reel spools. It will be less prone to backlash on you if you get sloppy with your cast.

If you are still having problems leave 1/4" of spool remaining.

Filling reel spools to the maximum and trying to throw as hard as you can, makes for a recipe of getting out the knife or scissors and doing a bit of re-spooling when the reel back lashes. 

When you start having 100 percent reliability with 3/16 inches drop down to 1/8 inch.

If you fill the spool all the way to the edge and have a lot of turns of shock, you are going to keep having problems until your cast is super smooth without any slack line or sudden acceleration to the cast.

I am thinking about having a $8.00 a month fee for my advice, kind of like a Blue Check next to a tweet tweet.


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## pcbtightlines (Aug 9, 2020)

Did you ever get your book deal ? “Short Stories from an OBX fisherman”


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## Garboman (Jul 22, 2010)

I am thinking of a new Website Like Field and Streams with Garbo or Outdoor Mike or perhaps DrumPro Shops 

Anything to get a lot of easy cash so I can afford a couple of new Sticks.


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## pcbtightlines (Aug 9, 2020)

dude , you got the stories to make it happen


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## Garboman (Jul 22, 2010)

The stories that make the reader tear up that are the important ones.


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## retired (Oct 20, 2016)

Some of the VERY early F15's had the issue you talk about. Mine never have. I also use 20 pd line and fill my spool like Garbo advises. It did stop my blow ups and I am not a very good caster any more at my age. My back with its multiple surgeries controls how consistent I am. its just life any more.


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## Garboman (Jul 22, 2010)

They invented the pendulum cast for old folks, that and Sputniks to stay competitive.

Sounds like you have one of the junky ones Arnav. I know nothing about them other than they look futuristic.


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## Arnav (Dec 17, 2020)

Thinking back on it, I do believe that the fuller the spool, the worser my troubles were.
Never happened last year when maybe it was not so full.
Anxious to try it later in the week.
Thanks to all,
A


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## BeachBob (Aug 27, 2010)

Garboman said:


> They invented the pendulum cast for old folks, that and Sputniks to stay competitive.


Hah! Not really for both, but it all sounds good.

There's the casting court and then there's surf fishing - two very different venues that can share attributes at times.

There are times to employ a pendulum cast and times you won't be able to swing lead in a 20-25' arc @ a 45* angle.

As to sputniks, they are very effective tools for holding bottom and being anchors for fish finders.


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## retired (Oct 20, 2016)

Arnav said:


> Thinking back on it, I do believe that the fuller the spool, the worser my troubles were.
> Never happened last year when maybe it was not so full.
> Anxious to try it later in the week.
> Thanks to all,
> A


I have to admit that the F15 (to me) which doesn't mean much does not look to have the quality of the Penn's and especially the Jap made reels. BUT with that said they throw great and I have them on my best rods....other than dunking one had no problems.Easy clean up.


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## dsurf (Aug 5, 2003)

I used 16lb Chrome extensively on my F15...never a problem with line behind the spool..and I know 16lb chrome is smaller diameter than 17lb Berkely.


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## pcbtightlines (Aug 9, 2020)

likewise.. I have 16lb Chrome on my F15’s currently and have made countless casts with no issues


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## Garboman (Jul 22, 2010)

I practiced this 360 degree four part pendulum with a 6-7 feet drop with a Drum rod all during the pandemic without even letting go of the sinker in my front yard. I can do it with a four foot drop but 7 feet is more smooth. It is for fishing not grass casting. I stole the motions from the competition casters and shortened them up to better control the sinker.

I do not need that much space. It was practiced expressly for fishing. Same short drop cast totally dumps a Daiwa SHA that I static magged when is loaded with 20 pound ProSpec and a five ounce Stingsilver or a bank sinker or competition sinker. 

There is no freaking way I can get all the line off that SHA or any other reel these days with just a Hatteras Cast and the same weight, perhaps 20 years ago when I was more in my prime but not now for sure.

When I finally get down to the OBX Drum piers and if I feel I need it to be competitive, I will tell everyone on the end of pier that if I were them I would get back. If they do not move the first time, on my second cast will certainly have them all moving in the other direction than Africa. The ones that know me will move the first time. I am Dangerous just with any cast and a heavy sinker........

The only dicey part on the pier is when the sinker goes over my head from my right side and if not done right it could hit the railing on its way back behind me on the Africa side of the railing... coming back into to my left side, I have only done it on land but I am pretty sure it will clear the railings, if I keep it well above my head and shoulders. I saw BlackBeard do this cast with a longer drop it is an overhead 360 degrees. I think I had to watch his video 10 times before I could trace where the sinker was and where it was going. I am not as refined as Blackbeard was but I am only a fisherman, never entered a tournament, likely never will.

I just shortened it a lot for Fishing for Drum. In a real big wind it would be too dicey, but in a real big wind you let the wind load the rod on a Hatteras cast.

I pendulum at the Point a lot with Stingsilvers sometimes with bait, you just have to walk far enough down the line to have enough space.


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## Garboman (Jul 22, 2010)

I do not use any more space than my Hatteras cast. but the rod is fully loaded by the time I am moving forward and releasing the spool. Like I said the only really dicey part is when it goes over my head from the right side and you have to keep the rod tip leading the sinker.

I can probably train some good looking Hottie to do it in a video and become an influencer.

I have seen a lot of competition casters sent home from the Point in shame by the DrumPros. Like you said Bob chucking 8-10 ounces and bait is a lot different than 175 Grams and 12 pound test line.


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## pcbtightlines (Aug 9, 2020)

influencer=cash for new sticks


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## The Joker (Mar 24, 2015)

Ditch the Akios and get a Fathom II and be done with it. There's a reason most of the drum pros use them.


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## BeachBob (Aug 27, 2010)

Yessir G-Man,


The Joker said:


> Ditch the Akios and get a Fathom II and be done with it. There's a reason most of the drum pros use them.


Nonsense! The Nitron is as good a reel as it gets for Drum or whatever, and so are any number of Penns and Omotos and Abus and Avets and etc etc etc.

I think in this Nitron case it's not so much the tool as it is the tool operator.


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## Sandcrab (Mar 20, 2002)

No prob with the 16# Pro Spec on my F15.


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## Arnav (Dec 17, 2020)

OK, as it turns out, there were a multitude of sins.
Firstly, I did not mean to blame, or hack on the reel, was just wondering if anyone else had similar problems. I'm the weakest link in this story 
I had about 3/4 of a spool on it from last year and used that for a while w/no problems. Was actually a bit impressed that I did as well as I did from a long 11 mo. break. That was the first mistake .... to expect to pick up from where you left off a year earlier. Gotta back up a bit towards starting over.
Then I got the notion to fill with new line. That's when it got touchy. (as you all said, thanks)
Now I recall when it began to get nasty. On the way in from a nice 100+ yd'r, a flounder hit me in the wash. Got it in and re-baited. Then, for the first time ever, I tried to gently loft it 50' or so just to pull the fresh bait through the near edge again. 
7oz on a CCP 6-10. That really went bad. Line got under the spool and around the axle. Had to take the side plate off to clear it and lost that 100' or so of line. There's not much room under the spool at the seat. I suppose as the full spool fluffed, even a little, there is no where for the swollen line to go so it got forced into the flange/frame joint. The line was kinky and beat up/pinched in a few places but held well under a pull test so I kept using it occasionally getting it under the spool a couple times but never again around the axle. I finally stripped another 100' or so off to get down to undamaged line in case I hooked something substantial. Then I got along much better. I had the mags out half way (from last year) put them back in to about 1/4 and was happier with the gained control and albeit shorter casts.
I'd lost a bit of confidence, but understanding what went wrong, and learning what to do to fix it is going a long way to getting me back to , at least, where I was.
Thanks Gents.


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## BeachBob (Aug 27, 2010)

It's all a learning curve, we've all been there a time or two - good on you, Arnav!   🐟 🎣


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## Fish'n Phil (Nov 11, 2002)

The problem you had with the line getting wedged is noted in European you tube video reviews.


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## Arnav (Dec 17, 2020)

Fish'n Phil said:


> The problem you had with the line getting wedged is noted in European you tube video reviews.


 Many vids there, and I've seen many. Can you link me to one specifically discussing the issue at hand ?
I haven't found one .... yet.
Thanks


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## Fish'n Phil (Nov 11, 2002)




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## pcbtightlines (Aug 9, 2020)

As noted by retired this issue was with early generation European F15’s …


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## Arnav (Dec 17, 2020)

pcbtightlines said:


> As noted by retired this issue was with early generation European F15’s …


...... also noted in the comments following that 2 yr old video:

"It should be noted that the Akios reel featured in the SAA vids was not a finished reel, it was an unfinished preproduction sample. The production reels have a different spool with a far greater capacity of 466m of 0.35mm mono whereas the spool on the preproduction reel had a capacity of just 280m of 0.35mm. There are also no issues with line trapping between the spool and cage with the production Akios reels as the spool to cage tolerances are far tighter with the newly designed spools. Hope this clears up a few points."

Thanks Phil,
A


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## Arnav (Dec 17, 2020)

Upon further investigation:
There's so much I like about this F15, but here's one thing I don't ... and didn't expect.
I was skeptical about paying (near) top $ for plastic, but it has come a long way over the years and critical components are typically machined to final dimensions for precision fit / function.
This (maybe not all) F15's side plate with its alignment pins and matching holes in the frame are simply formed in the initial injection molding process and are quite sloppy with substantial clearances allowing gross misalignment of the spool flange to the opening for it in the frame.
The fixed side is good as there is no option to shift that end of the axle.
The left side however is a whole nuther story.
I noticed that even after a good cast, the small bit of fluff after clamping the spool a hair late went under the spool as I was looking at it. .. multiple times.
I took the reel to the shop. I have granite inspection plates and can read to .0001", but roughly will do here.
The left flange of the spool has a very minimal runout of .0004" , quite acceptable. But I notice that the anodizing was rubbed off at the high point indicating that it was rubbing something, likely the frame. (no way ! )
The nominal clearance between the spool and the measured frame computes to about .013" (nice !)
But due to the slop in the side plate locators, the plate is able to move as much as .009" which allows it to move all the way till the spool actually rubs the frame which leaves a gap of as much as .026" + on the opposite side.
Any crack-off or other sudden shock, big fish with slightly loose side plate screws, or whatever CAN cause the side plate to slide on the frame slightly creating this misalignment.
I took care to reassemble the reel with a ribbon of soft shim material .0125" thick and the reel is working flawlessly now with Big Game 15 lb (.016") and nothing under the spool.
Couple crude pics.
I hope they are not all like this. Being an aerospace machinist, for $300+, I must say I did expect better.
I think its just a matter of poor alignment strategy for the side plate. A periphery shoulder of sorts would have been far better than 2 small tapered (draft) pins/dowels and bosses with loosely matching holes.
So there ..... a lot of it was me, but not all of it.


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## Fish'n Phil (Nov 11, 2002)

Arnav…just what I was thinking…jk…nice analysis!


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## BeachBob (Aug 27, 2010)

In all honesty, I think it was ........... you.


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## Arnav (Dec 17, 2020)

BeachBob said:


> In all honesty, I think it was ........... you.


Well, to be totally honest, I didn't make it. I think they are made in Asia for a British company.
Maybe you know little about metrology, all I did was measure the mating parts and reassemble compensating for the poor alignment method implemented. And the problem went away .... that part was ...... me.
Maybe you would have to actually see it to understand. I don't do videos or I would help you out.
Anyway, it is what it is ... believe it, or not.
If you have one, give it a check. Just slightly loosen the 4 screws and see if the side plate will shift around several thousandths. Maybe yours is close fitting, this one is not.
Thanks anyway .... honestly.


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## Arnav (Dec 17, 2020)

Fish'n Phil said:


> Arnav…just what I was thinking…jk…nice analysis!


Thanks Phil. I could have measured it to a closer tolerance, but it wasn't necessary. Assembling the side plate without paying close attention to maintaining the alignment allowed the eccentricity to be over .020" on one side and near 0 on the opposite. Adjusting the side play of the spool does nothing in regard to any radial flange clearances as mentioned earlier. I set this at minimal visual movement, .005" or less.
This reel, as it was, would eat practically any fluff at any stage of the cast. I every cast was perfect, or mags all in and the clicker on, it would work nicely. But that doesn't get out very far.
Another bit of cheese, the 4 little dinky screws only thread into the plastic frame a very small amount. They hold the parts together pretty well but have no where near the ability to hold the plate in alignment if shocked or pulled by a tight line.
This is where the alignment dowels being tighter would serve to maintain the alignment.
If you have one, check it out the next time you open it up.
Just curious.
Thanks again,
A


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## Garboman (Jul 22, 2010)

Ditch the Akios and get a Fathom II and be done with it. There's a reason most of the drum pros use them. 

Got to go with Joker on this one. Own three Fathom 15's likely the mag version is even better. These Penn Reels seem not to have issues with line getting behind the spool.

Long time ago ABU came out with the 7500. The Frame and Spool had more clearance than the regular 7000. Line would get behind the Spool on my 7500's so I ditched them and sold them off. The older I get the less problems I need, like a 10 minute walk back to the Truck to get a new Drum Rod and Reel because of a blowup issue, or worse to be on a Pier during a hot bite (which does not last forever) and you break off your cast and then have to get another rig and perhaps have to stand at the end of the line whilst others are bowed up and you have no room to cast your bait.


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## Garboman (Jul 22, 2010)

I took one of my Fathom 15's apart yesterday to see if I could easily mag it. It looked like too much work so I put it back together.

I magged an Avet SX5 and it cast decent and had a wonderful lever drag. Sold it off. Thinking about buying another just to static mag it.

Thanks for this detailed analysis on this Akios, Unless I find one in the trash dumpster at Ramp 44 I will not ever cast one likely.


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## Arnav (Dec 17, 2020)

Garboman said:


> Ditch the Akios and get a Fathom II and be done with it. There's a reason most of the drum pros use them.
> 
> Got to go with Joker on this one.


I think I'll apply to join Joker's camp too.
I can fix this one and use it, but the next one will NOT be plastic.

Thanks !


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## BeachBob (Aug 27, 2010)

Arnav said:


> Well, to be totally honest, I didn't make it. I think they are made in Asia for a British company.
> Maybe you know little about metrology, all I did was measure the mating parts and reassemble compensating for the poor alignment method implemented. And the problem went away .... that part was ...... me.
> Maybe you would have to actually see it to understand. I don't do videos or I would help you out.
> Anyway, it is what it is ... believe it, or not.
> ...


If you reelly feel it's the reel, then clearly it's defective since so many other folks don't have the issue you've uncovered, and it should be returned, get your dollar$ back, and get that Penn.


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## Arnav (Dec 17, 2020)

There are no "feelings" involved, just the facts.
It can, and will be corrected and made to work properly so I'll keep, and use it.
I wish everyone else the best of luck with theirs.
I'm just disappointed in the fit of a critical component on this one.
I sincerely hope I got the only black sheep of the bunch, but I'll not buy another one.

Cheers


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## pcbtightlines (Aug 9, 2020)

I own 3 and can say they have performed with no issues for 2 years.

Any time a product is somewhat mass produced there is bound to be someone who runs into an issue. Whether it is Penn Fathom, Akios etc. I am sure you can find people out there who have issues with just about every reel. 

I am just bummed the weather is turning cold.


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## Garboman (Jul 22, 2010)

So I took one of my ABU 7000's apart and am gluing a mag in to the left side side plate as I type.

This 7000 is 30 some years old, it has CT Bar from BlackDog in the UK. ABEC 7 Ceramic Bearings and Smoothie Drag Washers and I may load it up with 8 strand Braid and hit the Secret Spot on the OBX.

Will check back tomorrow with spin times for this ABU 7000, it cast nice before, if it is better now I will mag another 7000.

Played around today in the front yard with another 30 some year old ABU Ultra Mag, it is nice and smooth with bright orange Chinese 20 pound test 8 Strand Braid, I am really impressed, not issues at all yet.

DrumPro BraidMan


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## pcbtightlines (Aug 9, 2020)

Garboman said:


> So I took one of my ABU 7000's apart and am gluing a mag in to the left side side plate as I type.
> 
> This 7000 is 30 some years old, it has CT Bar from BlackDog in the UK. ABEC 7 Ceramic Bearings and Smoothie Drag Washers and I may load it up with 8 strand Braid and hit the Secret Spot on the OBX.
> 
> ...


Living on the edge 👍


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## Fish'n Phil (Nov 11, 2002)

Arnav…*illegitimi non carborundum*


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## Arnav (Dec 17, 2020)

Fish'n Phil said:


> Arnav…*illegitimi non carborundum*



Thanks !


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## BeachBob (Aug 27, 2010)

Garboman said:


> So I took one of my ABU 7000's apart and am gluing a mag in to the left side side plate as I type.
> 
> This 7000 is 30 some years old, it has CT Bar from BlackDog in the UK. ABEC 7 Ceramic Bearings and Smoothie Drag Washers and I may load it up with 8 strand Braid and hit the Secret Spot on the OBX.
> 
> ...


If the end plate of any revolver is flat - such as the Abu 7000 - far better to dynamic mono mag than static mag. Too easy to accomplish. Just did that to a Chief 6000CTS and turned it into a 6000CTM.











A mono mag can be had from a number of US and UK sources, and I've made that conversion to many many reels over the last 2+ decades, all with very positive results.











It can be also be done to domed end plates, such as most Abu 550x and 6650x reels by using, or making, an angled mono mag.


















Even a cheap Penn Warfare can be mono magged by swapping it into the clicker hole.


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## retired (Oct 20, 2016)

Arnav said:


> I think I'll apply to join Joker's camp too.
> I can fix this one and use it, but the next one will NOT be plastic.
> 
> Thanks !


Pretty much my opinion as well. I find the Penn composite a superior reel. I like the F15's but I doubt I buy any more. As is I have more reels than I should ever own. I take spares and if walking as Garbo mentioned I do have a habit of taking a spare with me.


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## Arnav (Dec 17, 2020)

I ran the cage and end plate through QC on a CMM to check/ verify/ blueprint the locating pins and mating sockets.
Won't go into the details, but the guy that designed the Snoopy n' Woodstock Zebcos would have blushed.  
Decided to fix it, all else being good and dreading the riggamaroll of dealing with the mfg/dealer.
The mating surfaces were machined out well oversize and then grouted in with reinforced epoxy and assembled in perfect concentric alignment.. 
It is now as it should have been and is in excellent alignment and is doing really well. A little fluff .... not a problem now.
Cheers !


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