# epoxy????



## obxsharker2 (Aug 2, 2007)

Hi my name is dalton and i have a question about applying epoxy to guides...i just took all of the components off of a casting rod that is very thick that a friend gave to me...the rods tip was broken...so i cut it down 8 inches and its a very sturdy rod now...i heated the epoxy on the guides just enough to help me get it off with a razor...i carefully cut the thread around the guides off makeing sure not to hit the blank...my question is if there is a certain epoxy i need to use to apply another set of guides on..i have already rapped the the guides on....i did a white and black rapping under the guide and then sat the guide and rapped it in black so now i have a white and black pattern...i plan on useing the rod for king fishing and/or cobia fishing.....thanks for the help fellas...tight lines!!

DALTON

P.S. DID I MENTION THIS IS MY FIRST ROD BUILD AND IM ONLY SIXTEEN!! I HOPE IT TURNS OUT GOOD...SO FAR SO GOOD!!


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## HellRhaY (Jul 6, 2007)

you can use either flexcoat or aftcote or u40...these are the more common epoxies.


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## obxsharker2 (Aug 2, 2007)

*thanks*

thanks for the help hellrhay..tight lines!!

DALTON

OH ONE MORE THING...DO I JUST DO ONE COAT OR WHAT??


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## HellRhaY (Jul 6, 2007)

if you do a thick coat, one is enough.
problem with one thick coat is the bubbles.

you can also do a thin coat.
with thin coat, you can do 2-3 coats and you wouldn't have problems with bubbles.

to get the bubbles off, use an alcohol lamp or a butane torch. the flame should be 6-8 inches away from the thread.


Btw, please don't use CAPS.


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## basstardo (Jun 5, 2006)

Read this

Lots of good information there.


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

If it's your first time one of the pre loaded syringe kits will make getting equal parts a little easier when mixing. Flex coat has several kits, and Green Top in Richmond carries them if you don't mind the drive.

I used flex coat for my first few builds, but have since switched over to Threadmaster finishes. Either will work, and so will the other brands, but flexcoat is more widely available, tho if you go mail order you can take your pick.

I prefer a lite build and several coats to doing one coat with high build, as Hellrhay noted you'll get less bubbles with thin coats.

Good luck and post a pic when your done.


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## toejam (Jan 28, 2005)

You can use the pre loaded syringe kits at Wally World, just make sure you get the 24 hour curing epoxy,not the fast set type, You can also thin epoxy with denatured alchol or acetone just don't use more than 10% by volume of your batch. Thinning will allow the bubbles to rise to the top more easily and out of the coat. Use can also use a hair dryer to heat the coat, this rise in temp also helps bubbles dispense but and it will also shorten the set and cure time of teh batch. If doing multipal coats, apply the next coat between the set and cure time of teh epoxy for max strength since there is no chemical bonding between coats that takes place after the epoxy has cured. Work in small batches as large batch are self heating and will shorten the time you have to work with the epoxy. Good luck!


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## obxsharker2 (Aug 2, 2007)

*Thanks...*

i really apreciate the help guys...thanks again!!

Dalton


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## Ed K (Mar 1, 2007)

toejam said:


> You can use the pre loaded syringe kits at Wally World, just make sure you get the 24 hour curing epoxy,not the fast set type, You can also thin epoxy with denatured alchol or acetone just don't use more than 10% by volume of your batch. Thinning will allow the bubbles to rise to the top more easily and out of the coat. Use can also use a hair dryer to heat the coat, this rise in temp also helps bubbles dispense but and it will also shorten the set and cure time of teh batch. If doing multipal coats, apply the next coat between the set and cure time of teh epoxy for max strength since there is no chemical bonding between coats that takes place after the epoxy has cured. Work in small batches as large batch are self heating and will shorten the time you have to work with the epoxy. Good luck!


Several points:
1 You need to use a finish designed for rod building
2. Unless advised or directed by manufacturer it is not recommended to thin the finish you can change the properties of the finish and effect the bond, clarity, life of finish, etc.
3. A hairdryer or heat gun blows large amounts of air over the finish unless you are working in a dust free room you will have wraps that look like a pin cushion.
4. Most all of the finishes out on the market will have a "chemical" bond after they have set up, however it is usually 24 hours give or take, you can apply finish weeks after the previous coat provided you lightly scuff the finish before you apply the second coat.
5. You can mix in as large of batch as needed just don't leave it in the mixing container pour it out on a piece of aluminum foil.


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## toejam (Jan 28, 2005)

*


Ed K said:



Several points:
1 You need to use a finish designed for rod building

Click to expand...

*Thats what the rod building suppliers want you to think! Over my many years of rod building and blank building, I have use about every type of epoxy on the market, and found that you do not have to use a speciality rod building epoxy. 

*


Ed K said:



Several points:
2. Unless advised or directed by manufacturer it is not recommended to thin the finish you can change the properties of the finish and effect the bond, clarity, life of finish, etc.

Click to expand...

*I have not found an epoxy yet that can not be safely thinned if the thinnner does not exceed 10% by vol of the batch. Yes if you exceed the 10% limit many of the bad things you describe can happen.

*


Ed K said:



3. A hairdryer or heat gun blows large amounts of air over the finish unless you are working in a dust free room you will have wraps that look like a pin cushion.

Click to expand...

*Yes do not use a hairdryer in a room with alot of dust!

*


Ed K said:



4. Most all of the finishes out on the market will have a "chemical" bond after they have set up, however it is usually 24 hours give or take, you can apply finish weeks after the previous coat provided you lightly scuff the finish before you apply the second coat.

Click to expand...

*For a "chemical" bond the next coat MUST be applied between the time the coat setups and the cure time for the batch which is dertermined by the type of epoxy you use, temperture and any thinning agents used. After setup of the batch, the only bonding that will take place with another coat will be a "mechanical" bond which is not as strong as a chemical bond and is directly related to the finish of the coat to whcih you are appling a second coat. This can be lightly "scuffed" and provide you plenty of dust for your hair dryer. If I have to sand or "scuff" , I only wet sand outside of my Finish room. 

*


Ed K said:



5. You can mix in as large of batch as needed just don't leave it in the mixing container pour it out on a piece of aluminum foil.

Click to expand...

*Good idea with the foil to help dispense the self generated heat of the curing epoxy but I still think when you are a beginer and /or working with a new epoxy, its better to work in small batches until you see how it reacts.....


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## Don B (Jul 28, 2001)

Quote:
Several points:
1 You need to use a finish designed for rod building 

Quote:
Thats what the rod building suppliers want you to think! Over my many years of rod building and blank building, I have use about every type of epoxy on the market, and found that you do not have to use a speciality rod building epoxy. 

The first rod I built was a Fenwick 16810 in 1981. I did not know about fancy finishes and used a varnish that was supposedly made for rods. It was thin and took about 4 coats to achieve a smooth finish. There is no excess build up and the wraps still look great today. 

Quote:
5. You can mix in as large of batch as needed just don't leave it in the mixing container pour it out on a piece of aluminum foil. 

Quote:
Good idea with the foil to help dispense the self generated heat of the curing epoxy but I still think when you are a beginer and /or working with a new epoxy, its better to work in small batches until you see how it reacts..... 

Diamondite nicely overcomes this problem. Here's a link on how to use it.

http://www.rodbuilding.org/read.php?2,253692,253693#msg-253693

Although I have not used them, it looks like Diamondite and PermaGloss will be the finishes I will be using in the near future.

Don


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## toejam (Jan 28, 2005)

Don B said:


> Diamondite nicely overcomes this problem. Here's a link on how to use it.
> 
> http://www.rodbuilding.org/read.php?2,253692,253693#msg-253693
> 
> ...


Hey Don,,, I own one rod that I didn't build myself, a Gambit XL with a fancy urethane finish that I bought about the same time I saw you last and fuzzed your reel on that Makio...it looks twice as old as my other rods that I have and fished just as hard and are four times its age.... no sir,,, it may be ok for production work but for my own rods give me an extra hard epoxy finish that will stand the test of time and hard fishing. 

later


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## Ed K (Mar 1, 2007)

*just trying to keep it simple for a beginner*

Don I agree about varnish or the urathanes like Permagloss just finished using some this evening only downfall is the smell. I have not tried the Diamondite finish yet only the CP

Toejam, the original poster is doing his first rod things should be kept simple he may not have your vast knowledge of epoxies and glues. Most slow cure 2 part epxoies are ment to bond things together. An "epoxy" used for thread finish is bonding what? it is not bonding it is covering and protecting the thread it is not there for strenght though some is added. Epoxy designed for bonding can be used will it give quality results like Flexcoat, or ThreadMaster I doubt it. They are designed to flow and disperse bubbles. Flexcoat is the only 2 part epoxy of any type, bonding or rod finish, that mentions anything about thinning and again this is a beginner what if he mistakenly adds 25% by volume to his finish and then has all kinds of problems with the finish. He then has to either fish with a terrible looking rod or cut everything off and start over or get discouraged and give up on Rod Building because its too hard. I am a Professional Builder and yes I love to have people come to me to build rods but I also will show and help anyone that wants to begin doing on there own, does this hurt me in the long run you bet but it also keeps the craft going. I am not going to respond to all your counter points but to the dust factor you have a "clean room" great I doubt a beginner will have a true "clean room" tack clothes will clean up any dust if you have to scuff between coats, again you only need a bond between coats as there is not strength needed you just want to keep the top coat from peeling of the bottom coat, I have done hundreds of rods like this and never had one problem some I've been 3-4 days between coats.


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## toejam (Jan 28, 2005)

Ed K said:


> Don I agree about varnish or the urathanes like Permagloss just finished using some this evening only downfall is the smell. I have not tried the Diamondite finish yet only the CP
> 
> Toejam, the original poster is doing his first rod things should be kept simple he may not have your vast knowledge of epoxies and glues. Most slow cure 2 part epxoies are ment to bond things together. An "epoxy" used for thread finish is bonding what? it is not bonding it is covering and protecting the thread it is not there for strenght though some is added. Epoxy designed for bonding can be used will it give quality results like Flexcoat, or ThreadMaster I doubt it. They are designed to flow and disperse bubbles. Flexcoat is the only 2 part epoxy of any type, bonding or rod finish, that mentions anything about thinning and again this is a beginner what if he mistakenly adds 25% by volume to his finish and then has all kinds of problems with the finish. He then has to either fish with a terrible looking rod or cut everything off and start over or get discouraged and give up on Rod Building because its too hard. I am a Professional Builder and yes I love to have people come to me to build rods but I also will show and help anyone that wants to begin doing on there own, does this hurt me in the long run you bet but it also keeps the craft going. I am not going to respond to all your counter points but to the dust factor you have a "clean room" great I doubt a beginner will have a true "clean room" tack clothes will clean up any dust if you have to scuff between coats, again you only need a bond between coats as there is not strength needed you just want to keep the top coat from peeling of the bottom coat, I have done hundreds of rods like this and never had one problem some I've been 3-4 days between coats.


Hey Ed,, I wasn't saying my approach is best for the new student of the craft. I was just pointing out "that there is more that one way skin the proverbal cat". Not everyone is afraid and to get off the "main path" of rod building and maybe learn something along the way even if their first rod is not perfect and it has to be redone. NOt saying my way is best just that it exist. Like many learned crafts, one needs to study and learn the experience of working with the materials of their craft. Flexcoat is nothing more that a bonding epoxy that as been thinned. A high strenght bonding expoy that is properly thinned can produce results that I believe to be superior to flexcoat since it will have a harder finish making it more durable and just as pretty(slick). And I wasn't saying that coats had to be applied within 24 hours... I too have waited days between coats. just that chemically bonded coats are stronger,,, but I am sure you build some fine rods


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## Don B (Jul 28, 2001)

Ed K said:


> Don I agree about varnish or the urathanes like Permagloss just finished using some this evening only downfall is the smell. I have not tried the Diamondite finish yet only the CP.


Hi Ed K,

I'm moving toward PermaGloss for my tournament rods. The positive attributes appear to be that it is thin, light, tough and does not require any mixing. On the negative size, I have heard that it sets up in the bottle quickly after it has been exposed to air.

The promises of Diamondite seem excellent. I have seen it used on rods and the finish seems very hard. I have also seen the results of a person mixing more than they could use. Although the residual material was very thick, it was extremely clear. Here's what sells it for me: I only build surf rods and start by mixing 20 cc of epoxy. I keep the epoxy in a cup and work very fast as it sets up quickly. The process with Diamondite will be the same for me, but the set up time in a cup will actually be slower since it does not depend upon heat.

Don


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## Don B (Jul 28, 2001)

toejam said:


> Hey Don,,, I own one rod that I didn't build myself, a Gambit XL with a fancy urethane finish that I bought about the same time I saw you last and fuzzed your reel on that Makio...it looks twice as old as my other rods that I have and fished just as hard and are four times its age.... no sir,,, it may be ok for production work but for my own rods give me an extra hard epoxy finish that will stand the test of time and hard fishing.
> 
> later


Hi toejam,

It has been a while and I have fuzzed many reels since that time. I have mostly quit using standard size equipment and now use small game equipment (40# main and less).

Several years ago I attended a rod building class and high build epoxy was promoted. I finally realized the impact it had on performance and moved to low build. And now I'm trying to enhance performance with lighter wraps and guides. 

Are you still doing that tornado casT?

Don


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## Charlie2 (May 2, 2007)

*Guide Finish*

TJ

You're correct in that you can use exotic substances other than those designated for rodbuilding to affix guides to a rod.

They work well, but removing the guides is another story. You may find the rod and guide have become inseparable. Severe methods are required for removing them. 

What's a 'Tornado' cast?

Cobia season is almost on us. When can I expect you here in LA?

Charlie2


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

Not to start anything. but all epoxies are not the same.

I wouldn't recomment to a first timer to grab "any old thing" off the shelf at Wal-Mart.

Thread finishes are meant to allow the rod to have it's normal flex and allow the guide to move a bit under rod flex.

Fast cure hard setting epoxies are good for what there intended to do- bond reel seats and other parts to the blank. 

I also don't think it's wise to suggest acetone thinning, and flaming a finish for "bubble removal" 
to a young beginner. (Safety first )

I'm sure he has common sense and a good head on his shoulders , but let's not get him into trouble he doesn't need.

Buying one of the commercially available "finish" epoxies is most likely the easist way for a beginner to get good results without a lot of experimentation.

With Threadmaster light build applied thinly, I have yet to have to break out the hair dryer or alcohol lamp for bubble removal.

Keep it simple for this youngin is all I'm thinking, and I am pretty sure that was what Ed was getting at also.


:fishing:


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## obxsharker2 (Aug 2, 2007)

*thanks for the help fellas....*

i really apreaciate it...i will keep u updated on the progress..hopefully a pic or 2...thanks!!

Dalton


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## Clyde (Oct 18, 2003)

K.I.S.S.

epoxy isn't as hard to work with as most people seem to make it out to be. mix equal portions for three minutes, slop it on with whatever you have handy (brush, spatula, credit card), let the excess drip off the bottom, & turn till it dries. Two coats is usually more than enough.


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## toejam (Jan 28, 2005)

Hey Don,,,, It good to hear you lighting up your tackle a bit,,,, you ain't no spring chicken either. That heavy stuff going to get you- given enough time! I still like the high build epoxy for guides where the guide and rod become one. I have yet to have a rod that I could cast farther with the guides just taped on than I could with a high build guide finish. May be that my method provides some transfer of energy being stored in the loading and compression of the guides againest the rod. Yea I still use the Tornado Cast. all these old habits are hard to leave behind......

Hey C2,,,, The Tornado Cast is a cast I use to clear me a fishing spot amongest all those Abu fishers on the beach(works great on the pier too, but I don't do nay combat fishing anymore). Just drop about 8 ft of leader with a good heavy sinker and and do a 360 with it going into a power cast.... watch em spread out and give you some room,,,, maybe I can get down by when the popcorn bushes bloom.... and maybe those NE and SC boys can get over too.. that would be great especially if you put us on some of these fish you have been bragging about, hehehe I'm still waiting to see if Steve A is going to claim you!!!!! Plus I'll show ya my secret method for removing high build epoxy guides...

Hey SurfCat,,,, those that read my post carefully will see that we are in total agreement. I find it strange that those that criticize my methods the most are those that have never tried any of them. they should get out of their "grooves" before casting any stones.....Hell there are some out there that don't think you can handmake a high performance blank from scratch........ 

Hey Dude ,,, the easiest way to put the guides back on your rod is to wrap your guides, get some Flexcoat to apply while you rod is slowly turning in a rod lath.


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