# Can you buy distance?



## kingfisherman23 (Dec 14, 2003)

The mods closed down the religion thread and the RDT thread has started to die out. So I'm gonna try and stir up a little trouble 

I had the great privilege of casting with Don, Everett and Robert yesterday and after we got through with the wisecracks some of what was said sparked a lot of thought on my part. One of those things was the concept of "buying distance." I've heard it said over and over that you cannot go out, buy a certain thing and increase your casting distance. Now fundamentally I understand that distance comes from good technique and solid practice time, but I disagree with the idea of buying distance on two levels.

Firstly, and most basically, you must have gear that is capable of doing what you need to do. You are not going to hit tournament distances with a dinky surf combo from Wal-Mart. Duh, right? You'll be able to learn and put up decent numbers, but to get to high levels of performance you need high-performance gear.

Secondly, this weekend showed me that confidence and comfort levels paly a HUGE part in your casting. If you believe that moving to high-performance gear is going to make your casting better, that is what happens. I switched over from a converted OMCP to an AFAW from Don and my distance went up. My longest cast of the day came on the AFAW and my 525 Mag, despite casting most of the day with my center-magged Abu 5500. After I threw, Robert and Don both said that I was smoother and casting better with that combo than with the Abu and I realized that I'm much more comfortable with the Penn. So if you go out like I did on Sunday with the expectation that getting better equipment will improve your distance, something happens. You have greater confidence in the rod and reel and that confidence causes you to put more into the cast. So by using that high-performance rod you are increasing your distance, albeit somewhat indirectly.

Thoughts?

Evan

PS: Yes, I realize that there is no substitute for quality form and technique.

PPS: Thanks for hanging around and bouncing ideas back and forth last night Robert. And thanks for the tip on the videos.


----------



## Kwesi W. (Apr 14, 2006)

I dont think you can buy distance. When I say that I'm speaking of gear, and gear only. I could spend $$$ and get lessons and that would help, but just jumping from a HDX to a zziplex isnt going to get me the distance I want. The OMCP rods is stiffer than most of the AFAW line. So that could be a case of not being able to properly bend the OMCP. A couple of years ago my best cast was with a penn 525\knobby, and I thought that reel was better than the others. The fact is the Penn is a great Fishing reel, but a well tuned abu will beat it when your throwing the .026-.032 lines.


----------



## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

I've always maintained that you can indeed, buy distance. 

Now the naysayers are going to come on here and say, well if you just sit on the couch, and expect that you can go out tomorrow and whip out the cash to buy better equipment, that you can't just expect that will make you a better caster.

Of course not.

But if your willing to work at it, then buying better equipment, lessons, practice equipment, etc. , _should_ lead to improved distances.

I say should, because there are no guarantees, that you aren't better off with equipment that you have, rather than what you *think* might be better equipment. 

And spending money on lessons, might not be that effective, if you can't break old habits, and ingrain new ones, etc.

Let me put it this way, having tons of disposable money to throw out in the pursuit of distance, likely won't hurt, but dedication to improvement is something that can't be bought. 

Likewise, you can have all the dedication and practice time available to you in the world, but if your going to insist on sticking with a 10' wally world rod and reel--- well, even great technique can only accomplish so much with inferior equipment.


----------



## kingfisherman23 (Dec 14, 2003)

What I'm saying is that spending big bucks on a rod comes with increased confidence and an expectation of longer throws. These two mental things contribute to better distances, given the same amount of practice time.

And that OMCP is stiff but I can load it with 150g or 175g. I'm telling you though, the first time I held that AFAW in Don's driveway it just felt _right_. Before I had a chance to throw it or even put a reel on it. And I knew that it would increase my distance, again before ever throwing it. I just had this mental expectation and comfort with the rod. That translated into longer, smoother and better-feeling casts without extra work on my part.

Do I have lots of work still to do? Absolutely. I'm throwing consistently in the 450s and have a tremendous amount of work to do on my timing and form. Do I think that spending money on an even nicer rod will help me? If Robert's Zziplex is any indicator, probably not. But making that commitment to a higher-quality rod added 25-30 feet by itself, and gave me an opening to improve my turn, hit and timing in ways I'm not sure I could have with what I was using before.

So in short, I'm saying that confidence plays a big part in casting. And for some, that confidence and the distance that comes with it can indeed be bought.

Evan


----------



## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

kingfisherman23 said:


> What I'm saying is that spending big bucks on a rod comes with increased confidence and an expectation of longer throws. These two mental things contribute to better distances, given the same amount of practice time.
> 
> And that OMCP is stiff but I can load it with 150g or 175g. I'm telling you though, the first time I held that AFAW in Don's driveway it just felt _right_. Before I had a chance to throw it or even put a reel on it. And I knew that it would increase my distance, again before ever throwing it. I just had this mental expectation and comfort with the rod. That translated into longer, smoother and better-feeling casts without extra work on my part.
> 
> ...


Absolutely, just how hard am I going to hit a cheap stick, knowing that it wasn't really designed for power casting, and just might explode on me ? 

Make no mistake however, plenty have overrodded themselves with a big, bad rod, initially giving them confidence and convinced that it will be their ticket to big distances, only to come away disappointed. 

Money helps-- money spent right helps more.


----------



## Kwesi W. (Apr 14, 2006)

You're Right it's mental, and getting over that WALL (mental wall ) is half the battle. People like using extremes by comparing a Wally World rod to a zziplex. I think top end gear makes a difference when your an elite caster.. when everthing you're doing is almost perfect and you need 25 more feet.. Then reels, rods and line make a difference.. I think a 500,600 ft caster can get by with average distance gear.. By average gear I mean gear that would be capable of decent numbers on the field..


----------



## kingfisherman23 (Dec 14, 2003)

Surf Cat said:


> Absolutely, just how hard am I going to hit a cheap stick, knowing that it wasn't really designed for power casting, and just might explode on me ?
> 
> Make no mistake however, plenty have overrodded themselves with a big, bad rod, initially giving them confidence and convinced that it will be their ticket to big distances, only to come away disappointed.
> 
> *Money helps-- money spent right helps more.*


Exactly. I folded an Ugly Stick in half last fall with an OTG and 5 oz. I can't feel good enough about that stuff to power it where it needs it. The reason I started this thread was because when I really started getting into distance casting the "can't buy it" mentality overpowers you and I decided that I had to have good form for a good rod to make a difference. I want people to realize that sometimes having a good rod is necessary for good form to develop. So you pegged it: Money can't produce distance by itself, but money spent right is vital.



kmw21230 said:


> You're Right it's mental, and getting over that WALL (mental wall ) is half the battle. People like using extremes by comparing a Wally World rod to a zziplex. I think top end gear makes a difference when your an elite caster.. when everthing you're doing is almost perfect and you need 25 more feet.. Then reels, rods and line make a difference.. I think a 500,600 ft caster can get by with average distance gear.. By average gear I mean gear that would be capable of decent numbers on the field..


Yep yep. I'm not saying that going from a $400 AFAW to a $1000 Zziplex is necessarily going to do much for a mid-range caster. I threw that AFAW and then tried Robert's Zziplex and I didn't feel nearly as good with that. Though if you are not comfortable enough with what you have then moving up will make a difference if it buys you security.

Evan


----------



## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

kmw21230 said:


> You're Right it's mental, and getting over that WALL (mental wall ) is half the battle. People like using extremes by comparing a Wally World rod to a zziplex. I think top end gear makes a difference when your an elite caster.. when everthing you're doing is almost perfect and you need 25 more feet.. Then reels, rods and line make a difference.. I think a 500,600 ft caster can get by with average distance gear.. By average gear I mean gear that would be capable of decent numbers on the field..


And unless a rich relative donated that "decent" gear to you, you had to pay for, AKA- buy it- thus *buying* at least reasonable distance for the time being.


----------



## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

Here's the thing Evan.

The statement itself "money can't buy distance" is not as black and white as it may seem. It means different things to different people.

A lot of people go through an evolution, buying better equipment, only as they get to the point where they feel reasonably justified in "needing" it.

That appraoch works for some, but may in fact cost more money in the long run. If you step thru a progression and buy a new rod capable of adding a few feet every time you progress, how much money will you have spent over the long haul ?

I see nothing wrong with buying equipment you won't outgrow, as long as you can get reasonable distance now-- you should be able to more fully utilize and get more potential out of the same set up as you improve, growing into it, so to speak. In fact some equipment(rod butts in particular), are designed specifically to allow you to grow into them. You may only be getting a small fraction of the "potential" out of the rod intially, but as long as you can bend it (at least somewhat), you will get better results, and sticking with the same rod over a longer time period, may in fact be better than switching up to a stronger rod every year or so.

There's lots of ways to look at the statement about "buying distance", only when it is used in a specific context can it be fully explored.


----------



## kingfisherman23 (Dec 14, 2003)

Thanks Surf Cat. Through replies you've helped me get to where I wanted to be with the first post. I agree with you 100% and you've put into words what I was trying to get at.

What I've heard a lot of from casters is that you need to improve your form and get to a higher level of casting before you think about investing in longer/strong/stiffer rods to fit your style. What I've discovered in my recent work in distance casting is that an initial investment will likely help me more than trying to learn on what I've got. I think that in the end you want something that you can kind of move up or grow into, as it were. So yeah, I can't go out, pick up a Zziplex Full Tournament or Century Kompressor, pair it with a tricked-out Abu and start hitting 200yds immediately. But I can get a good rod, add a nice reel and reach 200 quicker than if I were to stick with what I've been using.

Like I said, I just wanted to put this out there for people who are new to the sport like I was not long ago. I don't think that throwing down $1500-2000 on a dedicated distance setup is a good plan as you're getting in. You just simply cannot control it without a basic understanding of casting form. But I do believe that spending some money to get a rod designed for casting will pay off in a decreased learning curve.

Evan


----------



## kingfish (Feb 28, 2004)

I got distance for sale, so yes you can buy it.


----------



## 9 rock (Nov 30, 2008)

Thats a loaded question .
Yes in some circumstances but once at a certain level no ,every body has a cap limit you cant buy Tommy farmer distance 
good equiptment makes a differance but at the end of the day it is the user


9rock


----------



## eric (Oct 24, 2007)

you can buy distance.


----------



## Jesse Lockowitz (Feb 13, 2006)

cant everyone just agree to...



you can buy distance TO AN EXTENT


----------



## Hudak (Sep 10, 2007)

All this talk about buying distance, please let me know who is selling it, I want to order some, only about 75'-150' worth right now. Money is a little tight, does it come in filler spools or just in bulk? Can I order some in high-vis green? I love it when this topic comes up....opcorn::beer:

Evan, you are absolutely correct, compared to the Zippy, that AFAW is so much better for you right now. It is possible to buy a rod so overpowering to you that you actually hurt your confidence and desire to throw. That AFAW looked VERY comfortable in your hands, now only if you can keep the reel on right. 

Robert


----------



## kingfisherman23 (Dec 14, 2003)

I figured you guys would like this one LOL.



thekingfeeder said:


> Now only if you can keep the reel on right.
> 
> Robert


If I remember correctly, the reel was fine until I went for that Zippy.

And haven't ya heard? All the UK guys are doing it like that now. 

Evan


----------



## eric (Oct 24, 2007)

lol. with money, you can buy a spud gun and let that do the casting for ya..
so who said you cant buy distance..


----------



## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

thekingfeeder said:


> All this talk about buying distance, please let me know who is selling it, I want to order some, only about 75'-150' worth right now. Money is a little tight, does it come in filler spools or just in bulk? Can I order some in high-vis green? I love it when this topic comes up....opcorn::beer:
> 
> Evan, you are absolutely correct, compared to the Zippy, that AFAW is so much better for you right now. It is possible to buy a rod so overpowering to you that you actually hurt your confidence and desire to throw. That AFAW looked VERY comfortable in your hands, now only if you can keep the reel on right.
> 
> Robert



I think this requires a little closer inspection, if I may.

Forgetting about brand names, for the moment, whatever rod you are comfortable with, that allows you to get good distances currently, yet leaves some room for better distances as your skill improves, is most likely the one you will get the best results from, but not immediately outgrow.

My only issues with the statement above, concerning AFAW versus Zziplex, is that it may leave the wrong impression in the minds of some getting into the sport. Some might draw the conclusion that the AFAW is an "intermediate" type stick, best for beginners, and that Zziplex are best left to advanced or stronger casters. 

I just want to point out that one can't simply throw one model from a line up and make conclusions about the rest of the line up. Iv'e thrown Zippies that were too much stick for me, and I've thrown some that felt soft and very easy to load and throw. Style also plays a role -- OTG casting usually requires a tad more stiffish tip out of a rod, where pendulum casting generally requires a rod that loads more progressively throughout the cast.

I'm not a Zziplex salesmean, I just want to point out that there is likely a model that will suit most any caster and their style-- that is why so many different models are made after all. The old standard of the Zziplex line -- the primo Synchro -- would probably never be considered "too much rod" for anybody with reasonable physical attributes-- even the smaller or younger casters- would likely be fine with one.

Anyone that tries to convince a caster they are not ready for a "Zzippy", that you can't "buy" distance, isn't quite looking at things right, in my mind.

It might be true that the beefiest rods in the line up are not right for you, but that dosen't make "all Zzippies" unsuitable for beginners.

In the same token, the same can be said for AFAW, some model are perhaps better suited to individuals than others, likewise, with Centuries. And if you can get the same distance out of an AFAW, at a bargain price, so much the better.

The one thing I do know, is that with so many options available, someone produces a rod that will suit you. Finding that rod is part of the elusive hunt for better distance. 

It's unfortunate that we can't be test fit for casting rods the same way folks are currently test fit for golf clubs, it would make the process of finding our ultimate distance rod a tad easier. All we can do for now is explore as many options as possible, whether that is trying our buddies sticks, or going to a tourny to try a few different rods. 

My final thoughts-- if you are going to plunk down cash for a rod, do everything to make sure it is a good "fit" for you-- that way your money used to "buy" distance will fall into the proper category-- as I said before



> Money helps-- money spent right helps more.


I've seen time and again, where casters post up that there new rod is on the way, and they can't wait to get out on the field and try it. Funny how often that new stick winds up in the "for sale" category a short while later. There may be a small grain of truth to the idea that money can't buy distance, but anyone serious about going after distance is continuously exploring new sticks.

I'm sure if Tommy posted up every stick he had gone thru, or at least tried out, it would be a long, long list indeed.


----------



## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

edit - double post


----------



## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

Tommy said:


> I'm sure if Tommy posted up every stick he had gone thru, or at least tried out, it would be a long, long list indeed.


Here ya go, from the start in my quest for distance. The tournament casting started with the Straight 8.

'97 - G. Loomis 1448, 450-500' hatteras cast.
'99 - Lami 1502, 450-500' hatteras cast.
'99 - Zzipplex Straight 8, 475-550' hatteras cast.
'01 - Breakaway 2/1 with tourney butt, broke 600' with this one using a pendulum cast.
'02 - Greys PZ300t. Nice rod, good power and a forgiving tip. Had my "breakout tourney" with this one, 744' SCUSA Worlds fall 02.
'02 - Zzipplex Dymic LT 14. Broke 750' with this one.
'03 - Zzipplex Full Tournament. Ordered from Terry Carrol. Very special rod to me. Set the USA record with this one at 839'... 
'03 - Zziplex XTR. Didn't fit my style at the time but i would love to try it now groundcasting.
'04 - Zzipplex SST. Good rod, just didn't suit my style.
'05 - Zziplex Full Tournament XL. This one came from Dave Thomashey. My all time longest practice cast came on this one in the fall of '05.
'06 - Century TTR. First Century. Different feel to the zziplex lineup but a very very powerful, longcasting rod.
'07 - Zzipplex Primo Syncro XL. Got this one for down the road when I can't hit the stiff rods...lol 
'07 - Zziplex ZTI. Very Good groundcasting/flat arc rod.
'07 - AFAW Big Beach. Guys tend to overlook this rod but it is capable of BIG distance and it's easy to cast.
'07 - AFAW Tournament Rock. On par with the zziplex and century rods.
'08 - Zziplex M427. One of my very favorite groundcasting rods.
'09 - New Century TTR. Jury is out on this one, but so far so good.

I may have missed one or two but this pretty well covers it... 

Tommy[/QUOTE]


----------



## Orest (Jul 28, 2003)

*I think for I can buy some distance with a better rod*

My best cast measured at Crisfield back in 2004, the last National put together by James Williams, was 430' with 150 grams with an Okuma CD90 spinnig reel and a Tica 12' 8-10oz rod. 

I started the day with my Okuma Solaris 12' 3-8oz rod and was only getting 375 yds with the same reel. 

Using the OTG cast and with single lesson on casting from James and Neil.

Now I think if I spent ~$250 for a Breakaway, St.Croix or AllStar rod I could get more than 430' with the same reel. 

I think I cast further than 430' with my Penn 525mag and with one of my OM or OMCP.


Just my nickle worth....


----------



## demonfish (Mar 31, 2002)

" 430 yards" ????? big diff between yards and feet


----------



## kingfisherman23 (Dec 14, 2003)

Orest I hope you meant feet, not yards...

evan


----------



## Fish Hunter (Jul 31, 2002)

Hell yeah you can buy distance. I am walking talking proof of it.,

*Any time I cannot reach a bar, I just hand $20 over to my oldest son and he will cast to the bar for me, no problem.*

_So, its true, you can buy distance_.


----------



## Al Kai (Jan 8, 2007)

ooeric said:


> you can buy distance.


I can imagine baby Stewie saying "you can buy distance, Brian does it all the time". Thats funny.


----------



## Kwesi W. (Apr 14, 2006)

I feel a lot of us that chase distance in some way feels distance can be purchased. If Big Danny breaks his records and he happens to do it with a new rod. Guys around the world will purchase one. They feel if Danny's distance improved with it so will mine.. In that case you can't buy distance. Ok if you get a tricked out Bills Reels Abu that spins for 30sec with mags full on because TommyCCP has one, and you think you will now cast 100 more feet you're mistaking. In many ways distance will decrease due to the fact you have equipment that's to advance for your skill set.. I'm guilty of that myself..


----------



## Kwesi W. (Apr 14, 2006)

I can't tell you how man emails I get from people around the world that want to cast like Tommy Farmer. They ask me if I know him, and I say yes.. Then the next thing out of there mouth is I want a Mag Kit that will make me cast like Tommy.. LOL $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ I'm pretty honest so I dont take advantage of them I just tell them to get a good rod&reel and put your time in.... LOL


----------



## Al Kai (Jan 8, 2007)

kmw21230 said:


> I can't tell you how man emails I get from people around the world that want to cast like Tommy Farmer. They ask me if I know him, and I say yes.. Then the next thing out of there mouth is I want a Mag Kit that will make me cast like Tommy.. LOL $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ I'm pretty honest so I dont take advantage of them I just tell them to get a good rod&reel and put your time in.... LOL


Practise I don't need no stinkin practise.

I'll just buy a guitar that will make me play like Awsome John and a rod and reel combo that will make me cast like Tommy Farmer.

If I get those things I will pretty much have it nailed

P.S, If I can buy the combo, I will fly to the next tournament.


----------



## ReelinRod (May 29, 2003)

One can certainly buy distance but as your skill improves the rewards are less a return on $$$ invested and more of dedication to refining technique.

Let me take a guy using a Penn 750SS mounted on an 12' Ugly Stik throwing 20lb mono and put a Daiwa Emcast Pro with 20lb braid and a 65lb braid casting leader mounted on an AFAW Universal in his hands and I can guarantee he will be throwing *considerably* further in 15 minutes.

Now with that change he could go from 65yds with the Penn/mono/Ugly to 125yds in a dozen casts. . . Could he jump again to 175yds with just another new rod and reel? I don't think so; that's where a commitment to practice comes into play. 

With the skills / refinement needed for consistent 175yd casts a tackle change to a more powerful rod might garner him 3-5yds directly attributable to the new equipment but learning the rod would net him much more at that level, perhaps out to 210 yards.

Buying that more powerful rod first, when his skills are not up to snuff will not get him the 210 . . . More than likely he would have a longer learning curve just to reach the 175!


----------



## kingfish (Feb 28, 2004)

*thread control*

calling NTKG, 

Just when this thread got legs, here comes Sarge making sense again, hurry up, Surf Cat is closing in.


----------



## ohiocaster (Nov 29, 2008)

Well I'm bringing my "Bill's Custom 6600w", my imported "Zziplex PS", my other surf gear, and I am going to HAVE FUN, hopefully meet a bunch of like-minded folk who love to cast..., and my goal IS NOT to outcast Tommy or any of you. This will be my first tournament, first chance to really "mess-up", and stay in bounds near 450 feet...
Hope to see you all there
Barry


----------



## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

kingfish said:


> calling NTKG,
> 
> Just when this thread got legs, here comes Sarge making sense again, hurry up, Surf Cat is closing in.



Sarge pretty well covered what I've been trying to say, so I'll leave it at that.


----------



## eric (Oct 24, 2007)

the reality po-lice.


----------



## Vernad Ogonowicz (Sep 18, 2003)

Better equipment is a definite advantage over junk, but real distance comes from better technique.


----------



## Charkbait (Oct 15, 2007)

"Buying" distance can be relative too. I mean I can toss some of my cheaper rods further then my more expensive ones. Just a matter of what fits my style better at this point in time. If I were to get serious about grass casting then over time the more expensive rods would probably perform better.

Point being I still "bought" a new rod but it was cheaper then some of the ones I had...so I bought distance right? Or did I downsize distance?

If you find what fits you'll pickup distance, problem being you can "buy a lot of distance" (rods) before you find the right one.

If you are going to grass cast on a budget I'd say buy the best rod you can afford and effectively use then learn how to max it out. If you don't care and want to fish then buy a rod that makes you cast far now, in which case you'd be buying distance.

I think most of us are saying the same thing.


----------

