# How do you know



## FishinMortician (Jun 19, 2007)

I was just researching projectiles, on the web, and I came across a marvelous little applet for their study. Basically it allowed me to shoot a cannon ball down range, and control variables: Velocity, angle, and mass. This is very similar to casting a sinker, exclusive of air resistance, reel drag, etc. of course.

If you shoot the cannonball at 45 degrees, it of course, went the furthest distance. 

It got interesting when I chose 40 degrees and 50 degrees, which both had the ball landing in the same spot. Any combination of degrees, where 45 was in the middle. Such as 35 and 55, and 30 and 60, even 20 and 70, the ball always landed in the same spot. Interesting. 

It also showed how the cannonball slows as it approaches it's apex, and then accelerates as it falls. ( read: reel speed changes)

It would imply to me that if I am casting at 40 degrees, it might as well be 50 degrees, either way it still is not the best angle, which again is 45 degrees. It has to do with 45 degrees having the best of BOTH vertical and horizontal velocities, not the highest of either, but the best of both.

So... this got me to thinking- how does one KNOW he is casting at 45 degrees? and not 50 or 40. Has anyone ever tried to actually measure THEIR angle of trajectory? All things remaining equal, if you are not casting at 45 degrees, and if you moved YOUR angle and could actually achieve 45 degrees, it certainly would add INSTANT distance. 

So tonight, I am going to experiment-* again*. Might be VERY interesting. 

Might make me re-organize my entire casting motion- all over again. God she is going to kill me!


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## Lip Ripper (Dec 8, 2003)

abviously 45 would be the best. but 40 is better than 50 because you dont have to deal with as much slowing at the apex. so there is less chanse of blowing up. of corse this is all in a vacume


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## barty b (Dec 31, 2004)

Interesting point Paul. There are so many tiny variables in a cast,especially important in tourny casting, That can make or break a cast. The difference of a mere 5 deg. in angle could in fact be the deciding factor in the lead going 800' as opposed to 790'...neither of which I can reach yet,but definately a factor. As is timing of release,maximum rod load and as little resistance as possible from the line leaving the spool. Add in uncontrollable factors such as wind resistance,speed and direction,air pressure and humidity. So why would release angle NOT be a factor? Looking forward to your results Paul.


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## BlaineO (Jan 22, 2001)

FM,

If only the aerodynamics were involved, the trajectory angle thing would be so on target, but......................

Some casters can hit the cast higher, and not lose sinker velocity, not many.

Some can modify the position of the sinker during the cast, and actually hit it around 40° degrees, and have the sinker achieve almost 50° of trajectory.

And some can knock the snot out of the cast at 35°, keep it together, and record amazing distances.

Then you can factor in the airfoil effects of the line vs. the drag of the line, and how that varies from cast to cast, hour to hour.

Oh, then there are the weather conditions, and what works best when.

So, the answer is, there is not a simple answer, other than try what you think might work. 

BTW, good going with your recent success.

Blaine


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## demonfish (Mar 31, 2002)

blain O , how you doing friend, good to see you on the board once in awhile. look forward to seeing you back on the field in chrisfiled in sept. 

take it easy 

frank


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## BlaineO (Jan 22, 2001)

Hi Frank,

I hope you and yours are well.

Take care,

Blaine


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## surfchunker (Apr 10, 2006)

*F M*

thanks for that bit of info ...It's a small part but every little bit we can get right the better we can cast ........ and that is one thing we can control ..... thanks for the heads up


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## fishinmama (Oct 14, 2006)

*fishinmortician--interesting read*

don't overthink it -- as others have said, there are other variables to consider -- even tho a 45 degree angle may be the ideal, i think that if you can hit between 40 and 50 consistently, you will do well, unless of course you are going for that ultimate tourney cast.


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## Surf Fish (Dec 16, 2005)

fishinmama said:


> don't overthink it -- as others have said, there are other variables to consider -- even tho a 45 degree angle may be the ideal, i think that if you can hit between 40 and 50 consistently, you will do well, unless of course you are going for that ultimate tourney cast.


How do you tell when you've casted between 40 and 50 degrees, i.e., how do you measure the angle accurately ?


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## Tippet (Jul 3, 2007)

You're trying to apply ballistics, but the line being attached screws it up.

Ballistics gives you a starting point, though. 

The good news is, you're not trying to hit a precise point as in ballistics, just maximizing range. Makes the problem a little easier. 

What it boils down to is how much energy are you able put into how much weight. It's not humanly possible to max-out a cast. 

The max range for a projectile is a factor of mass. A 168 gr .308 win bullet can go maybe a little over 1k yds if the conditions are right, but usually it's running out of gas at 800 yds or so. That's because only so much powder fits into the brass, and as you increase velocity, it takes more and more energy to get smaller and smaller increases in velocity.

Not possible to apply anywhere near that kind of energy with a cast. You can only fit so much "powder" into your arms.

But there's still always that chance of getting a little further than you did last time...

BTW the instrument used to measure a vertical angle is called a clinometer. A lot of sportman's compasses have them built in, it's pretty low-tech. Straight up is 90°, halfway between that andf the horizon is 45°.

*edit* Oh I see you're asking "how can you tell between 45° and 50° on a cast?" 

You can't, unless someone's measuring it while you cast. Even then, even if the cast were measured accurately, which would be problematic (I'm a land surveyor, trust me on this), you'd still only find out what the angle _was_, after the fact. You wouldn't be able to aim.


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## Tippet (Jul 3, 2007)

I wanted to edit that, but some net-nazi set it so that you can only edit during the first 10 minutes after the post.

I wanted to say, you couldn't use a clino to get aim for a cast, unless you had a landmark in the sky- a _skymark_ lol

seriously, how in blazes is it to anyone's benefit to have a cutoff time for editing your own post? that's frikken ridiculous. Along with the tattletale auto-appendage telling the world that the post was edited at all.

Some people are control freaks I guess.

*edit* give me one good argument, and I'll take it back. Punish me or give me even a little grief, you prove my point.

*edit*few more minutes and I couldn't made that offer to take it back. It's hard to imagine a good argument.


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

Although we strive to hit that ideal of around 45 degrees it would take some pretty nifty camera work to be able to aseess it. Tossing with a wind at my back (tourny) I think I would want a slightly higher launch angle to let the wind help carry the sinker. Fishin into the wind it pays to keep the cast on a lower trajectory. 

Of course most of us don't have the impeccable timing of release that would be required to hit the exact same trajectory time after time.

I think An aussie site once stated the ideal for casting is ( if memory serves) different than a ballistic type trajectory, which of course is not tethered to anything. Assumption would be the heavier the line the more it will "drag" the sinker down, so you might want to try a little higher trajectory with heavier lines.

Just regurging more techno babble

My .02


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

*Tippet*

on the edit issue- The only logic I can think of for limiting the edit time is so folks don't have to go back to the beginning of a long thread because someone wants to alter what they said 3 pages back. 

It also immortalizes your words- so it helps to think before saying something rash, lest you wind up regretting it later. :redface: 

IF flea has other reasons I don't know what they are.

BTW Sand Flea- the owner of this site- is that Net nazi you so kindly referred to.


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## Surf Fish (Dec 16, 2005)

Thanks for that explanation, Tippet. Maybe that's what FishinMama is using to measure the 40 to 50 degree angle, a clinometer. I would imagine that requires an assistant, as measuring the angle from the view of the operator would be a bit difficult I'd guess. 

The reason for the 10 minute edit has nothing to do with long threads, it has to do with the fact that some of the little kids were saying nasty stuff, and then going back and changing it to make it look like they didn't say nasty stuff to confuse the managment. 

At first the edit feature got removed completely, but then we go the ten minute program after a bit of discussion. 

You know how those little kids are, they're always figuring out new ways to be bad....


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

> The reason for the 10 minute edit has nothing to do with long threads, it has to do with the fact that some of the little kids were saying nasty stuff, and then going back and changing it to make it look like they didn't say nasty stuff to confuse the managment.


Thanks SF, sounds like you have the inside info on this one, that was pretty much what I was hinting at with 



> It also immortalizes your words- so it helps to think before saying something rash, lest you wind up regretting it later.


I still think it's a side benefit(intended or not) to not have to deal with edits done to early posts in a long thread, makes keeping up with who said what, much easier.


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## Tippet (Jul 3, 2007)

I still haven't heard a convincing argument for either restriction, so I'm not taking it back yet. 

Why does it matter one whit if someone edits an early post in a long thread? 

And why 10 minutes? Why not an hour, or a day? Why any time limit at all?

Apologies to FM for hijacking a good thread.


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## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

FM,

Work on adding elevation until the distance starts to decrease. You will find the release point that works best for you. Before long it will become second nature. Individual body types and mechanics also come into play, some guys can really hit a cast high AND hard (Danny M). Others develop more power with a lower release point. With your height you should be able to utilize a long rod and still attain a good high release trajectory.

One of the best bits of advice ever for adding elevation to your cast is also one of the easiest to follow.

*LOOK UP* as you come around for the hit.

Pick a spot in the sky and cast to (or through) it. Look to the target and the sinker will follow that path most of the time.

Some great advice in this thread. 

Man I wish this kind of stuff was available 6-7 years ago...lol

Tommy

ps, For me the 10 minute edit feature does help. More than once I've posted and right away realized a typo or that my mind was not in gear as my fingers typed away. Gives you a shot at correcting those mistakes..


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## Tippet (Jul 3, 2007)

Tommy, I've read some of your posts, I've checked out your website, and I have to say I really appreciate the resource you provide. I wish I was close enough to attend your classes. If I ever get out that way I'll be sure to visit.

The 10-minute issue I'm protesting is that there's a time limit on editing posts. If you don't fix it within 10 minutes, you can't fix it. No other forums do that, that I've ever seen. Most don't even have that stupid tattletale appendage either- why is it neccessary to place text at the bottom, announcing when and how many edits have been made to a post? 

Only a net-nazi control freak would install such a program. Or someone who skipped class when they taught critical thinking. Maybe both?

Which means my days are probably numbered here for saying so. I'm assuming I only still have access because the offending party hasn't seen this yet.

This argument that it's to counter the actions of children misbehaving, posting foul language- that excuse doen't track. 

This software has a swear-catcher, so any words the admin doesn't want showing up can be dealt with in a number of ways. 

Even without the swear-catcher, the time-limit still doesn't stand up to a logical analysis. 

If someone uses foul language in a post, then later thinks better of it, why remove the tool they need to clean it up?


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## toejam (Jan 28, 2005)

*Enough*



Tippet said:


> The 10-minute issue I'm protesting is that there's a time limit on editing posts. If you don't fix it within 10 minutes, you can't fix it. No other forums do that, that I've ever seen. Most don't even have that stupid tattletale appendage either- why is it neccessary to place text at the bottom, announcing when and how many edits have been made to a post?
> 
> Only a net-nazi control freak would install such a program. Or someone who skipped class when they taught critical thinking. Maybe both?
> 
> ...


It is what it is,, and I don't know why it is,,, but the man who pays the bills for the domain and server space and puts it up for you to use at no cost, LIKES IT! If you don't like it, quit bitching about it, move on and put up your own site the way you LIKE it.


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## RockhopperUK (Jul 13, 2005)

Somethings never change....Toejam still dont take any prisoners    

Now I know who that dog of yours takes after   

Your right btw bad manners to shift someone elses furniture  

Tom.


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## Tippet (Jul 3, 2007)

Fair enough toejam, if the shoe was on the other foot I might react the same way. 

OK then I made my point, and nearly ruined a damned good thread by FM. Sorry, won't happen again.


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## DERFM (Jun 19, 2004)

darn tippet 
you are really on a 'net nazi' kick today !


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

*Tippet*

Not to drag this on, but if you haven't tried to catch up after being away from the internet for a few days, then I can see why you miss the point of why early edits (posted Late) can be an issue.

Try reading an entire thread with multiple early edits- it becomes incomprehensible after so many edits.

Usually I realize too late that I have horribly misspelled something- and the ten minute rule allows plenty of time to fix that issue- if i realize I missed an important point later in the discussion I'll simply add another post for clarification.

Truthfully, you seem like one of the good guys and I'd like to see you stick around, so ease up on the rules and deal with it privately with Sand Flea if you think you have a legit beef.


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

*Btw*

The only reason I can think of for someone NOT wanting others to know their post was edited is to deny whatever they said earlier. We all make typos and forget to add clarifications, which is why a reason for the edit can be shown.

All right, nuff preachin' from me.


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## Tippet (Jul 3, 2007)

DERFM said:


> darn tippet
> you are really on a 'net nazi' kick today !


Yeah you got that right, I'll ease up. Something happened to me a few days ago that kinda put me into a tailspin. Sorry for the drama. I'm OK now.


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## Green Cart (May 14, 2002)

*How do you ....*

Tommy said "Pick a spot in the sky and cast to (or through) it. Look to the target and the sinker will follow that path most of the time". 

How do you pick a spot when or where the sky looks the same unless there happens to be a cloud at 45 degrees?


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

Green Cart said:


> Tommy said "Pick a spot in the sky and cast to (or through) it. Look to the target and the sinker will follow that path most of the time".
> 
> How do you pick a spot when or where the sky looks the same unless there happens to be a cloud at 45 degrees?


Pound a sand spike in the sand at 45 degrees. put a long spare rod into the spike and get a good indication of your target by sighting up the length of the spare rod.  

Or do what most of us do- guesstimate


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## FishinMortician (Jun 19, 2007)

No problem with you guys not focusing ALL your thoughts on my question. It was fine with me.

I read what has been said. I have completed some experiments at home. I practiced my cast, with my 2x2, in front of a bank of windows and then evaluated my reflection to ascertain the angle. I have been casting way too low. I am trying to correct, but my left arm keeps gettting bent prior to the hit. Also, when the cast is viewed at a distance with a camera, it is difficult to assess the angle.

So... with all of your input carefully considered, it comes down to experimentation- while actually casting. Adjustments in angle, verified by measurements, to determine which angle is best.

So in conclusion, may I assume that 45 degrees is not ALWAYS the best angle? I think the answer to that question- is yes. 

I appreciate the input, and yes sir- it is nice to have this type of information when one is just setting out. BTW- spooling/dumping the reel has become so commonplace, that I have decided to switch to a smaller diameter of line. Had been using (0.15" dia.) 15lb Big Game, a friend is going to help me with my next selection, but you guys may have something to offer, as well.

My experimental cast is comming along nicely, still an OTG cast, but made while standing flat footed. No foot movements, just rotate and hit. Later, after becomming *completely familiar* with the basic mechanics, I will add the foot work portion to finish my style. I think another couple of weeks, at least. I am apprehensive about approaching the pendulum, but if I can break IT down, it will be a quick learn.


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## FishinMortician (Jun 19, 2007)

I ALMOST forgot something very important- Thank You. It means an awful lot to me to have you guys along for the ride. Aim High !!!!!!


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

> So in conclusion, may I assume that 45 degrees is not ALWAYS the best angle? I think the answer to that question- is yes.



That's pretty much it in a nutshell- since conditions will most likely always vary, the ideal trajectory will also vary on any given day.

But even if we could hold conditions at a steady state, no wind, etc. I think the ideal trajectory would be different than that of a cannonball- or projectile if you will. 

The path of a projectile can be seen as being fairly uniform along its flight, a fairly symmetrical ascent, apex, and then descent. 

The amount of line being towed by a sinker changes as the sinker gets further away, and all this line in the air puts increased drag on the object (lead) that is towing it, changing it's overall path from a pure symmetrical one,(flattening it out) so we have to take that into consideration.

In all likely hood I think for the most part, this means the ideal path for a sinker towing some line is going to be slightly higher than that of 45 degrees.

I was playing around with a site similar to the one you described, and when you have the ability to adjust for subtle effects. wind, drag coefficients, etc., the ideal trajectory- even for a missile, is not always 45 degrees.


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## quickstop (Feb 10, 2007)

Personally I cast much further at 70-80 degrees. 

At 45 degrees my jacket slows me down and at 40 degree I had some nasty accidents involving woolly hat and gloves.

For 90+ degree naked casting has not caught on so well down here and the pull punch has to be very controlled to prevent personal injury.


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## Tippet (Jul 3, 2007)

LOL you got me there, quickstop- I was thinking "what? 90°?!!! hey that's straight up!"

Then it dawned on me, good one.


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## Connman (Apr 14, 2001)

Forget about ideal 45deg casting angles , we are imperfect biomechanical creatures so each one of us has a different optimum casting angle . Jason casts at 35degs and Danny around 55deg yet both have broken 300 yards . Cast at whatever angle your body does naturally and just work on technique . If you force yourself to cast at some specific angle which doesn't suit your natural form you will suffer distance loss and possibily injure yourself in the long run .


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## Tippet (Jul 3, 2007)

...unless you're in the early stages of learning any given endeavour- doing "what feels natural" can work against you, if your form is off and you don't yet have a frame of reference for comparison.


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## RockhopperUK (Jul 13, 2005)

Tippet said:


> ...unless you're in the early stages of learning any given endeavour- doing "what feels natural" can work against you, if your form is off and you don't yet have a frame of reference for comparison.


isn't that why most experienced casters tell a novice to spend time with a casting instructor.

Tom.


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

RockhopperUK said:


> isn't that why most experienced casters tell a novice to spend time with a casting instructor.
> 
> Tom.



I agree with the sentiment of your statment Tom, but not everyone has access to a decent instructor, some would have to travel hundreds, even thousands of miles to a qualified instructor- so why not pick up what you can from the internet- if you can post video of your casting you can get some good help nowadays, not the same as one on one training I know, but maybe the next best thing.

Just my .02


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## RockhopperUK (Jul 13, 2005)

I totally agree, YouTube and casting go hand in glove and the likes of Tommy Farmer and a few others are doing a great job of helping lesser casters learn with the use of it, add to that forums like this, where you can ask the video maker/caster a question it becomes almost as good as a one on one.

Excuse me, we English do sometimes forget how big America is and how far you guys must travel sometimes for your sport 

Tom.


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