# Bearings ?



## sinisterfins (Sep 20, 2007)

O.K. , who's useing what bearings & why . Been doing bunches of experiments with diffrent bearings , oils , run in & not run in . Seems like every time I add the smallest amount of oil I drop a minute or so of spin time . Anyone know why ? Thanks


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

sinisterfins said:


> O.K. , who's useing what bearings & why . Been doing bunches of experiments with diffrent bearings , oils , run in & not run in . Seems like every time I add the smallest amount of oil I drop a minute or so of spin time . Anyone know why ? Thanks



Having too much oil in the bearing will slow it down-- the balls have to "push" the extra oil out of the way as they travel around the races-- think of it like a car tire pushing rain water off the road-- but if the bearing is closed up or the oil is extra thick-- it is tough for the ball to push the oil out of the way.

I know at least one individual that adds a drop of oil and then uses compressed air to blow any excess oil out of the bearing.

I currently use Boca ceramic hybrids (Abec 5 or 7)--- and have been experimenting with running them dry this year. I seem to get more consistent behavior out of the reel that way--- there is no oil to get heated up as the sun gets higher in the sky and beats down on the reel laying in the field.

So far it's just an experiment-- if you go with dry bearings you will need to make sure you have plenty of mag control available.


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## cobia_slaya (Jan 19, 2010)

if you run them bearing dry theyre gonna whine all day long


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## Hudak (Sep 10, 2007)

Spin time is typically effected by more than oil alone. There are different variables that will effect spin time depending on how your reel it is set up.

3 ways to control your spool are brakes, line level, and oil. Since oil inherently is a means to control the speed of a spool, it makes sense that any oil, or more oil will slow the speed of the spool down.

With all the advertising out there, manufacturers and word of mouth, stock bearings are easily overlooked. Typically, stock bearings are much better than people give them credit. I personally have a mix of stock bearings, old tourney bearings, and bearings I find in my bearing pile in my fishing reels. As long as they are clean and oiled properly, I don't give much thought to my bearings. I would much rather run a set of clean stock bearings then spend money on bearings for my fishing reels.

Just my .02...

Robert


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

I'm pretty sure Brian is asking about bearings for tournament reels.

But just in case and as a heads up-- if you run stock steel bearings do not run them dry-- they will not only whine they will heat up too rapidly-- they need lubricant for cooling if nothing else.



> if you run them bearing dry theyre gonna whine all day long


THe only bearings that are ok to run dry would be ceramics-- not steel ones-- and ceramics don't usually whine-- if they are or there is "chatter" it could be a spool balance issue.

I'm not suggesting running ceramics dry is the best way to go-- a lot of guys still use oil with ceramics.


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## sinisterfins (Sep 20, 2007)

Yeah Mark your right . This is strictly tourny info . I've run in some bearings with toothpaste to see what effect that had . Just messing around trying to get the best result but I think new / better bearings are needed .


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## seajay (Dec 18, 2005)

How are you doing a run-in on spool bearings?how are you monitoring the bearing temp and the actual lubricant fill? Also the rpm of the bearing? Why would you apply an abrasive to them?


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## Hudak (Sep 10, 2007)

Now ya see, I am derned if I do and derned if I don't!! I always assume people are referring to tourney casting on here and they are always talking about fishing it _seems_. I respond to a post with fishing in mind one time and they are actually talking tourney casting!! LMAO! Bare with me, sooner or later I will have my timing right.

Robert


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## Charlie2 (May 2, 2007)

*Bearings??*

I use an Ultrasonic Jewelry Cleaner to clean my bearings. You may be surprised at what gunk comes out.

I then dry them on a piece of paper towel.

I warm the bearing on a hot plate and drop ONE drop of Red Rocket Fuel in the bearing.

I used to put the bearing on a wire then spin them using compressed air until one disintegrated and threw shrapnel all over the shop. A few anxious moments, to say the least.

I put them into the reel and let it go. JMHO C2


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## Hudak (Sep 10, 2007)

I just use Rockets. Put some red in there and put them in the spool. Let it ride. If it starts to get squirrely, I add oil. _*Assuming*_ the premise, they are clean when I get them, and I take care of the reel to keep it out of funk, I shouldn't have to clean them.

Now other bearings I have had, I would have to clean them. Wishing I had an utrasonic cleaner . Dry, lube, repeat as needed.

It may not be the best way, but it has worked for me so far.

Robert


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

sinisterfins said:


> Yeah Mark your right . This is strictly tourny info . I've run in some bearings with toothpaste to see what effect that had . Just messing around trying to get the best result but I think new / better bearings are needed .


I've tried the toothpaste thing too. Not much success, at least with ceramics--- I think ceramic balls are so hard that polishing them doesn't do much to the balls-- it might help the races tho.

I just got a new 10 pack of bearings in the other day-- only 4 of them spun up decently--- I'll try cleaning the others, but I'm amazed at the lack of consistant performance from bearing to bearing....


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## Hudak (Sep 10, 2007)

Mark G said:


> I just got a new 10 pack of bearings in the other day-- only 4 of them spun up decently--- I'll try cleaning the others, but I'm amazed at the lack of consistant performance from bearing to bearing....


I used to by 10packs of ceramic hybrids, single shielded from a popular place online. I found the same to be true. Last batch, the straw that broke the camels back if you will, I only had two decent ones. Some would spin decent, others wouldn't spin at all. I personally am not looking for the longest spin time out of a bearing, I just want two that match in spin time as closely as possible.

Robert


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## Charlie2 (May 2, 2007)

*Bearings*



Mark G said:


> I just got a new 10 pack of bearings in the other day-- only 4 of them spun up decently--- I'll try cleaning the others, but I'm amazed at the lack of consistant performance from bearing to bearing....


That's why I, as a matter of rote, run mine through the Ultrasonic cleaning process when I first get them. Perfectly new bearings sometimes have a lot of 'crud' for lack of a better word, in them.

BTW: Ultrasonic Jewelry Cleaners weren't that expensive, at least when I bought mine. I clean everything in mine; reels, bearings, tools; you name it.

Deep Secret #99: I once bought a 'foot washer' which vibrates the foot while soaking it. My foot got healed and I found that I could put a small container of parts in it and it would shake the crud out of them. It finally wore out and I bought the ultrasonic. C2


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## sinisterfins (Sep 20, 2007)

Yea , its weird that so many bearings right out of the pack are crap . How long do you look for bearings to spin for on their own ? I don't have 1 that spins over 4 seconds . The toothpaste did help to a point but I think your right Mark . It was probably not the bearings themselves .


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## Hooked Up (Feb 6, 2009)

out of 24 orange sealed bocos .................i have 2 that will spin 45 seconds
4 around 20 seconds...............completely cleaned, dried and seals removed.......last batch i ordered
not a single one would spin over 15 secs.....some less then 10 secs....other places ive purchased them i get the same results........a crap shoot at best....i would think once a bearing has been oiled there wouldnt be much of a way to tell what you have unless u were to measure the amount of oil installed..........ive got a set of 20s ur welcome to try


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## nomadfl (Jan 7, 2007)

*Bearings and Bearings*

I got two new reels for surf fishing...factory models....Okuma Contoura CR-203CS, so I took each apart, and removed the bearings from both reels.

To clean these factory packed bearings. I took a long pair of tweezers that I had, and held them over an lit alcohol lamp...just enough for them to get hot...but not change color...then I dipped them into a half filled baby food jar containing varsol.... I did each a couple of times...even when the bearing were burning from varsol...but not enough to damage them.....I was boiling the heavy factory grade lubricant out of them....When I was done, I put them all into the baby food bottle with the varsol, shook hard, and left over night.

The next day, I shook the bearings again...then removed them and let them dry on a piece of hand drying paper... Then the bearing spin readily and are quiet.

The oil I use is a synthetic thin oil, which advertises that it's excellent lubricating qualities under high heat. I put 2 drops into each bearing, and reinstall the bearings onto the shaft and bearing holders in the reel.

Before I assemble the reels, I install a wide elastic band around the reel spool. I assemble the reels.

I then take out my high speed Dremel type motor (24,000 rpm), and put the elastic band loop around the chuck...and holding the reel, and switching on the motor you get the reel spool spinning...you can control the speed of the motor by stretching the rubber band....I then stretch or decrease the length of the rubber band to slow, or increase the speed of the motor. I do this off and on for about 10 minutes. By doing this...I am grooving in the bearings to give them a bit of life ...to me this works ...just don't overheat them doing this process. I doubt your reels will ever see this RPM again. 

*Caution....make sure you do this in the same direction the spool would revolve when casting*.

I now have removed the left sideplate of the reel, and slide out the elastic band, and then reassemble the reel....When I spin the spool, the spool revolves smoothly, and is very quiet.

I now have to spool and balance the line on the spools, starting with 30# braid (8# dia), and then top up with my 14, or 17# mono.

This method is only my opinion...and I find that it helps in setting up a brand new reel, or installing new bearings


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

Nomadfl-- I think you could be on to something-- I sometimes use a dremel but it is just on the bearing-- I set the bearing on a tapered plastic shaft, such as a cheap artist paint brush -- this holds the inner race still-- and then with one of the polishing attachments attached to the dremel--hold the dremel against the outer race of the bearing.

I'm thinking your method may work even better-- I may give it a shot next time-- one obvious advantage-- if you blow a bearing at high rpm you should be able to contain any shrapnel inside the reel-- an obvious safety issue when spinning a bearing in an open atmosphere-- as Charlie2 alluded to earlier.

A word of caution to any one who tries this with an assembled reel--don't overdo it- reels were not designed to take extreme high speeds for extended periods of time-- even the best cast in the world isn't likely to have a reel spinning for over 10 seconds at a time at a high rate of speed.

A final caution would be to not stretch the band around the spool too tightly--spools were designed to have some minimal play in them during the cast (high speeds)-- stretching a band around the spool is likely to cause some friction contact points .

Understandably the spool/bearings/shaft have the same type of stress on it when fighting a big fish=== the caveat is that you are not winding that fish in at extreme speeds.


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## blakdog_tackle (Jan 31, 2010)

nomadfl said:


> (24,000 rpm) I doubt your reels will ever see this RPM again.


Quite the contrary. Daiwa tested the 7HT Mag very thoroughly and state that their Magnofuge braking does not even cut in until approximately 30,000 rpm ... so the 24,000 rpm wouldn't even trigger the brakes on the mag. I also read an article by, I think, John Holden once (many years ago now) where the spool rpm on an ABU 6500 was quoted as being around 35,000 rpm on the initial part of the cast. In all honesty I can't say that I've checked those figures but one would assume that Daiwa have made a thorough job of it.

Actually most of the bearings you buy are rated for much more than that and for running for long periods of time (a typical low end, economy steel bearing in my shop will be rated at 50,000 rpm for 10,000 hrs plus) so I don't really think anybody should get too nervous about giving a reel a whizz for a while with the dremmel. An open bearing is a different matter maybe ... they are just not designed to operate that way so its possible that the unusual stresses and strains might well do much more harm than good, though personally I think I'd seriously question the quality if a couple of minutes spinning with a dremmel exploded the bearing.

On a very interesting thread it jumps straight out that despite much talk about cleaners, running in methods, ball material and oils, there's not one single mention of the bearing cages, the "frame" that holds the balls in position inside the bearing. They're fundamentally important and in my opinion the part that really decides how long fishing reel bearings will last and how they will perform. 

Quality steel cages give you a bearing that needs "running in" and takes some time to attain its optimum performance, but once there (like a well built engine) if they are properly maintained they hold that performance for the long term. At the other end of the spectrum are cheap grade Nylon cages ... they are generally loose from the pack (and probably noisy as they may even allow the balls to bounce) and the cheap nylon is just not up to the constant "accelerations from cold" that casting is all about. Hence they wear fairly quickly, they are at their peak with the first cast, and then performance drops with every successive use, sometimes very rapidly. The giveaway to these cheap cages is a bearing, by the way, that despite cleaning, seems always to be sluggish for the first few casts, then speeds up suddenly becoming very noisy ... the sluggishness is caused (I think) by the cleaning solvents melting the plastic and coating the balls etc with a thin film of plastic and successive cleans of a "freed up" bearing will result in it going sluggish again.

Personally I don't worry in the slightest what speed the bearings have initially so long as they are smooth and tight. I've spent the last 30 years messing around with just about every type and brand known to man (including the latest full ceramics) and it always seems to be that the slowest brand straight out of the pack is the one that ultimately gives both the highest performance speed wise (eventually) and in terms of longevity.


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## atblis (Jul 20, 2003)

Here's my estimate for spool velocity. Cranked it out in a few minutes, so feel free to point out any errors. It's basically a 45 degree trajectory in a vacuum, and is then translated into spool velocity. 

I think this is actually a conservative estimate because it assumes no losses; air drag, line drag, braking, friction in the reel. It also doesn't take into account that effective spool diameter changes as line goes out.

The last thing is spool RPMs.


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## blakdog_tackle (Jan 31, 2010)

atblis said:


> Here's my estimate for spool velocity. Cranked it out in a few minutes, so feel free to point out any errors. It's basically a 45 degree trajectory in a vacuum, and is then translated into spool velocity.
> 
> I think this is actually a conservative estimate because it assumes no losses; air drag, line drag, braking, friction in the reel. It also doesn't take into account that effective spool diameter changes as line goes out.
> 
> The last thing is spool RPMs.


Does that work as well as a digital rev-counter? I think you'll find Daiwa at least actually measured it.


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## atblis (Jul 20, 2003)

I guess we're not an engineer are we? It's an interesting exercise to crank out a calculation using as many simplifications and approximations as possible, and see how close it actually is.

So is a calculation like that useful? Here's what you get from it.

I adjusted the spool diameter to 1.5" (the approximate diameter of a 5500 spool). The calculation then gives >21k rpms.

It would be safe to conclude that a reel sees initial spool speeds in excess of 21k RPM.


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## blakdog_tackle (Jan 31, 2010)

A more accurate idea is much close to home ... bout halfway down on the slide (from Daiwa).

http://pierandsurf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=360882&postcount=5

The 7HT mag seems to get a lot of criticism from the UK casters about it being over-braked and a bit sluggish for the court so if it's brakes cut in at 30,000 rpm as Daiwa say it seems quite reasonable to assume an original 7HT or 6500 would be just that bit faster ... and sometimes just that bit too fast.


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## Hudak (Sep 10, 2007)

HA! That link looks familiar. LOL 

Bearings spin up a heckuva lot faster than people realize. Especially, if you take into consideration the guys who are throwing 800-900+ feet on the court. I would love to see what a 900+ foot cast creates in way of rpm's at the beginning of the cast. The estimates we see, as in Daiwa's reports, I suspect are from mortal casters. 

Robert


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

thekingfeeder said:


> HA! That link looks familiar. LOL
> 
> Bearings spin up a heckuva lot faster than people realize. Especially, if you take into consideration the guys who are throwing 800-900+ feet on the court. I would love to see what a 900+ foot cast creates in way of rpm's at the beginning of the cast. The estimates we see, as in Daiwa's reports, I suspect are from mortal casters.
> 
> Robert


Just back your mags all the way out --- pretty much anyone can achieve start up speeds in excess of 35,000 r.pm. --- of course the blow up won't allow the spool to spin that fast for more than a fraction of a second in most cases ----




> I guess we're not an engineer are we? It's an interesting exercise to crank out a calculation using as many simplifications and approximations as possible, and see how close it actually is.
> 
> So is a calculation like that useful? Here's what you get from it.
> 
> ...


Calculations are useful, but only when you take into consideration all the variables. In this case the spool diameter diminshes at an extremely fast rate and the amount of line being thrown per spool revolution dimishes as well, so straight forward claculations become more complicated...

This might be a fairly tedious excercise-- but would result in a decent approximation of average r.p.m. for a cast. 

It takes some of the moving variables out of the equation, but not all of them.

It starts with determining the total number of spool revolutions it takes to throw off say 200 + yards of line. We need to account for the bow in the line so a cast that goes 200 yards is going to need more like 650 -700 feet of line to be thrown in the approximately 6 seconds it takes for the sinker to travel 200 yards. Of course a line drive takes up less line,.. a high trajectory takes more.

Here is the tedious part-- stretch out a measured 700 feet of line -- then count the handle revolutions as you wind up the 700 feet of line. Make sure to know the gear ratio-- this allow you to convert handle revolutions to spool revolutions.

Now for some very "theoretical numbers" at this point.
Let's say it took 500 handle revolutions to wind on 700 feet of line and the reel has a 5:3 gear ratio.

500 X 5.3 = 2650 spool revolutions

The spool will have to revolve 2650 times to throw off 700 feet of line. THis number will vary considerably with how "full" the spool is with line-- which is why the tedious part is necessary to determine accurately how many spool revolutions are needed to throw off 700 feet of line-- to be accurate you must measure with the spool to be used...

Anyway we'll go with the general rule of thumb that it takes one second of cast time for a sinker to cover 100 feet of distance or 6 seconds for a 200 yard cast.

So the spool needs to revolve 2650 times in 6 seconds.

This means 2650 divided by 6 = 441.667 revolutions per second.

Convert to r.p.m.

441.667 X 60 = 26,500 r.p.m.

Of course this is average r.pm. over the 6 seconds, intital speed is higher while speed at the end of the cast is lower due to natural slowing of the sinker/ braking of the spool, although mags can be backed off to help maintian spool speed to some degree.


As I said these numbers are all hypothetical-- an interesting excercise , but even I'm not anal enough to count 500 handle revolutions, measue exact amount of line thrown off, distance achieved, and stop watch the sinker flight time-- which would need to be done to get you to an average r.p.m., and still doesn't accuratley get us to the intial start up speed at the moment the lead takes off.

One could use high speed cameras such as used in golf swing anlaysis to determine initial sinker velocity more accurately-- and then calculate initial required spool r.pm. from that.


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## Hudak (Sep 10, 2007)

Mark G said:


> Just back your mags all the way out --- pretty much anyone can achieve start up speeds in excess of 35,000 r.pm. --- of course the blow up won't allow the spool to spin that fast for more than a fraction of a second in most cases ----


Been there, done that, have the pile of line to show for it. Repeatedly....

Robert


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