# pier live bait king rod design



## Twagon

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

I fish the piers at Ft. Walton Beach and Panama City Beach for kings, etc. I currently use 7' spinning rods built on Lamiglas GLB841L and GLB841M blanks with Fuji SVSG guides. The latest one's guides were selected and spaced using a variation of Fuji's 'New Concept' system. These rods are great to fish with, but often I need more distance.

The required technique is casting live cigar minnows and sardines (l-y's) into a brisk wind as far as possible. This not only gets the bait closer to the fish, but keeps the bait in the water longer as it drifts back in, giving more time for the fish to eat it.

Most of the rods that are getting the longer casts use big stainless wire-ring guides set in a 'cone of flight' system resulting in a small number of big guides near the tip end of the blank. A variety of blanks are used. It should be noted that some of the casters are extremely skilled, using a technique like a mini-pendulum overhead cast accelerating the bait slowly enough not to sling it off. Other folks just sling 'em out there like I do, only farther.

I'd appreciate any design suggestions for a longer-casting live bait rod. If any of you have an inventory of guides, it would be interesting to compare wire frame to ceramic quide sets taped to the same blank and test cast. Thanks.


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## curtisb

What are the lengths of the other peoples rods versus your own. 7' isn't the greatest length for a distance rod. If space will permit, you may want to look at getting a longer rod for this purpose(say 10' minimum).The rod length will also depend on what the pier personel will allow. Some piers in Galveston for instance wont let you use anything longer than 10' were as others don't have a length limit. Also any kinda of power cast is going to be dangerous in a crowded situation. Sometimes you have to just use what cast space on the pier will safely allow.

CB


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## Twagon

Nine feet would be a good practical upper limit for length. I have a 9' king rod, and it's fine. 8' would be more convenient. I wonder how much distance would be gained going from 8 to 9 feet? 

I agree about power casting. Not only would it not be acceptable in this situation, it would tend to sling the bait off.

So, let's say the new rod will be 8 or 9'. What material should be used? I suspect a graphite butt with a glass tip might be good.

A big question remains: "Can ceramic guides give distance equal to big stainless wire frame guides?"


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## Clyde

Ceramic guides, with the correct sizes and spaceing, will give you a HUGE advantage over the wire guides.


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## Twagon

Thanks, that's good to hear. It may be that lower initial cost is why there are so many wire guides on the piers I fish. Many of you have probably compared wire guides versus ceramics for distance to your own satisfaction. Even though I've cracked and had to replace some silicon carbide guides, I really prefer them.


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## curtisb

I would go with the 9' if it were me. If you can use it, I would use at least a 10' or 10'6' if possible(the longer the rod the longer the cast). I would also use at least ceramic guides(thou I prefer Alconites or SiC guides).

CB


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## FirstShot

First off sorry for the late reply. Most folks here prefer at LEAST an 8' rod and preferably a 8.5 to 9 footer. For casting distance stay away from the live bait style blanks, in favor of more moderate actions. In graphite blanks the Allstar 1087 is a very popular king blank as is the rainshadow 1087 and 1088. In fiberglass the seeker ps90 and gator T90L are popular. The seeker ps85 makes a good combo king/cobia rod. As far as guides, what most people dont understand is that oftentimes we are whipping out unweighted live baits into a stiff wind. The fuji guides work great in a lot of situations but NOT HERE. Youll find you get better distance with ss guides with a 70mm stripper. Also if you fish a manual pickup reel as most do, youll constantly have the line blow back on the roller on the cast with fujis, even with a 50mm stripper.My best advice would be to talk to folks on the pier, youll see that we have a lot of talented rodbuilders who know what it takes to build a very technique specific rod. I assure you that cost of guides is not an object when you see someone fishing a 300 dollar custom rod and a van staal


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## Twagon

Thanks, FirstShot, your post shows an understanding of this specific type of fishing. I've seen some beautifully built pier rods with ss guides that appear to have been set using a 'cone of flight' theory. I think I'll try to use an ss stripper guide, and change to Fuji guides on the blank where the ring size permits.

Specifically, do you think the Lamiglas GLB 108M or 108MH is too fast? These are 'live bait' blanks, so I presume so. These are from the series I'm used to, and would go beautifully with my other rods. I won't hesitate to change, though. 

I appreciate the blank suggestions. The All Star may be hard to find, but the Rainshadow appears to be available. Mudhole shows an ATC 1087 blank resembling the rainshadow on its "blank finder", and it will add it to the shopping cart, but I don't know if it's really available. Is there an ideal location for the reel seat on this blank?

I suspect custom builders can recommend a rod like this as ideal for Panhandle pier kingfishing with live baits. It also seems versatile enough that if one were to have just one rod to fish the pier, this would be it. Thanks again.


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## Twagon

Thanks, FirstShot, your post shows an understanding of this specific type of fishing. I've seen some beautifully built pier rods with ss guides that appear to have been set using a 'cone of flight' theory. I think I'll try to use an ss stripper guide, and change to Fuji guides on the blank where the ring size permits.

Specifically, do you think the Lamiglas GLB 108M or 108MH is too fast? These are 'live bait' blanks, so I presume so. These are from the series I'm used to, and would go beautifully with my other rods. I won't hesitate to change, though. 

I appreciate the blank suggestions. The All Star may be hard to find, but the Rainshadow appears to be available. Mudhole shows an ATC 1087 blank resembling the rainshadow on its "blank finder", and it will add it to the shopping cart, but I don't know if it's really available. Is there an ideal location for the reel seat on this blank?

I suspect custom builders can recommend a rod like this as ideal for Panhandle pier kingfishing with live baits. It also seems versatile enough that if one were to have just one rod to fish the pier, this would be it. Thanks again.


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## FirstShot

The lamiglas blanks you named would be fine, they are listed as live bait blanks but actually have a more moderate action, I know several guys who use these. I'd go with the lighter of the two if its going to be strictly a king rod. The ATC blank you mention is an american tackle blank, the specs are the same as a rainshadow, but I dont know anything about these. Placement of the reel seat is really just personel preference, I set the lower end of my reel seat 15" from the butt of the blank on my own rods. Using a 75mm ss stripper, then ss 60, then to 40 fujis and on down will work great, you just dont want the line piling up behind the first guide. Sometimes casting an LY into the wind seems like you're trying to throw a potato chip


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## Twagon

Thanks! This gives me all the info I need to build a killer live bait pier rod. Some days, a bait anywhere in the water is ok. But on others, only the baits upwind away from the pier get hit very often. This type of rod can make a tremendous difference in results. I've seen it more than I care to recall.

I hope serious custom builders who haven't tried a setup like this will tape up this type of guide set on an appropriate blank and test it on live baits like LYs, cigs, sardines, pilchards, etc. Even fishing from a boat, the extra distance could mean not having to reposition or risk disturbing feeding fish.


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## Twagon

I'm building my pier spinning rod now. It's a 9' Lamiglas GLB 108 1M. It's configured with a 2" butt cap, 14" rear grip, Fuji H22 graphite heavy-duty reel seat and 5" fore grip. I used a 70mm ss wire butt guide and 5 svsg sic guides in the following sizes: 40,25,16,12,10. Tip is Fuji concept sic 10. Guide spacing from tip is approx: 5", 11.25, 19.10, 28.90, 41.15, 56.50. This puts the butt guide approx 31" above the reel seat. 

Test casting was done with two weights: a 2oz bank sinker, and a 2oz bank sinker modified by folding a 4" round auto wax foam applicator pad around the weight and wrapping it on to add wind resistance. This is to simulate casting live baits. Reels used were a Penn 4500ss spooled with 15lb powerpro, and a Penn 850ss with a top shot of 20lb Ande mono over 20 lb powerpro. 

I concluded that use of the wire butt guide did not reduce maximum casting distance with the small reel, compared to a set-up using the 40mm sic as a butt guide, and permitted effective use of the big reel. Without the 70mm ss wire butt guide, line slap type problems made the big reel ineffective for casting. It's important to have use of big reels, as tarpon, cobia, barracuda, tuna, etc., may be encountered, as well as smoker kings. 

An ideal live bait king mackerel rod might have both largest guides in ss wire, but I'm satisfied with this setup as a start. An alternative might be to use a high-frame ceramic butt guide; I'm not crazy about them. 

With the small reel, average distance obtained was est. at 104 yards with the bank sinker, and 60 yards with the foam-wrapped sinker. 
With the big reel, average distance obtained was est. at 69 yards and 39 yards, respectively. 

Absolute distances don't really matter here; the point is I couldn't find other guide set-ups which would perform better and meet my needs. Test casting was generally done into the wind, as this is the crucial factor in reaching fish most of the time. I expect actual fishing cast distances to be much less, as casts must be done so as not to kill the bait or sling it off. 

Thanks to all for their input. I hope this design will combine advantages of smaller sic guides near the tip for high performance, and a big wire butt guide to facilitate big-reel live bait fishing


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## clubhunter

i was wondering how this setup actually performed in actual pier fishing situation. has anyone else ever tried this combination setup?


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## Charlie2

*Pier and Surf Rod*

I fish up the coast at Pensacola and FWB and still see those SS, COF, 70m butt guide rods on both piers and you'll have to pry them out of their dead hands. I have a good friend who swears by them and resists all efforts to drag him, kicking and screaming, into the 21st Century.

For a pier rod for kings and cobia. I recommend a 9 foot, composite or graphite blank, moderate action with ceramic guides. I use Alconites with no problems. I use 17lb Suffix Tritanium, a copolymer which has worked so far with artificial as well as live bait. I use an old Mitchell 402 reel with manual bail.

I haven't used a 70mm butt guide in some years. In fact; most of mine have been 30mm and 35mm; rarely a 40mm. I do locate the guides using the New Guide Concept. On a typical 9 foot rod, I will use 8 or 9 guides, depending on what it looks like during a static test.

So; there you have it FWIW. I hope to see you on the Piers. C2


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## clubhunter

Thanks for the feedback.....I went out today and got a GUSA MEGA MAG blank with a 70 stripper and the rest are the alconite concept guides. I'm going to tape them to the blank and see how it performs. This will be a Cobia and large bait rod. I'll be mainly using it with 50 Power Pro. 
Your right about the die hard Panhandle Pier boys and their resistance to using the ceramic guides. I will say those guys are some of the most accurate casters and great fisherman around. 
Look forward to getting in the mix again.


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## Charlie2

*Pier Rod*

I can cast just as far, farther than some, and just as accurate, without using a 70mm stripper. You don't need it. Do you want to look like them?

While you're out buying, get a 40mm and even a 35, or 30 and give them a try!

If you insist, go with the cone-of-flight, but again, there are better guide placement systems.

Do a Google on the New Guide Concept and look at it. It goes out to an intersect point then proceeds to the tip with smaller, equidistant, and equally spaced guides. You don't need a shockleader, so you can get by with some small guides.

If you need help, a PM will do. C2


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## ReelinRod

clubhunter said:


> Thanks for the feedback.....I went out today and got a GUSA MEGA MAG blank with a 70 stripper and the rest are the alconite concept guides. . . . I'll be mainly using it with 50 Power Pro.


If you are using braid there is absolutely *no reason* to use a large stripper guide. In fact, large guides can be more problematic; leading to guide wraps and break-offs. 

With braid all the old "rules' of spinning rod design can be forgotten. First new rule; it is best to choke the line as soon as possible if distance is the goal. 

Case in point:

My distance fishing rods are spinners, all rung with Fuji LC Sic Lowriders which feature 20mm stripper guides. 
They may get puzzled looks from those stuck in the 70's but when they see how it casts . . . 

Here's my son with my extreme distance rig; a 13'-2" All-Star 1507, a Daiwa Basia reel with 20lb Sufix running line and 80lb PowerPro casting leader. On this rig the 20mm stripper is 53 inches from the reel stem. 











With just a 150gm casting sinker I'm just under 700ft with it. It permits me to fish a baited hook well over 500 feet from the beach.

I must endorse what Charlie said, forget the big guide. For pier work I wouldn't go larger than a 35mm stripper.


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## clubhunter

I layed another rod out with the alconites and it looks great. I will test this out in the next few days.


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## Charlie2

*Pier Rod Design*

OK: don'y keep us in suspemnse. How did it work out? Curious minds want to know.

Believe it or not, someone brought me one of those SS 70mm COF rods in yesterday to rebuild. He wants it the same so I had to turn him down. No way would I build one except maybe for a dear friend who doesn't know any better. 

BTW; Fuji is coming out, or is already out with some new Alconites up to 50mm. Reels go in cycles. They're going the other way now towards biggger, and people still think that you need a humongous first stripper. NOT! JMHO C2


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## inshoreangler95

Sgt_Slough said:


>


God that basia looks beautiful! Very nice pic SGT!


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## Jason4606

Hi guys! Newbie here....

I was just searching for some info before heading to work and found this thread.

I'm in the same boat. I'm about to build my first rod and it will be a pier rod exactly like you guys have been discussing. I have a friend that has been giving a lot of advice. But would like to run this by you guys too to help me learn more... (Since this was a really old thread hopefully it's OK if I threadjack a little.)

I actually have 2 x Rainshadow SW1088 blanks. I'm planning to use one and cut it to 8' since I think it helps with controlling a big fish at the gaff. (much longer gets tough for me to transport too.) I'll be using VS150 with 30lb braid. I'm leaning toward using double-footed Alconite guides 40-30-25-20-16-12-10T sim to the "medium" new concept layout. (But I took out one 10mm guessing that I'll need to start a little farther up the blank due to long split grip.) Does anybody see any issues / possible improvement on this?

I'm concerned about casting distance and line slap too, but the VS150 spool diameter is pretty darn small... I can't imagine it will pose the same issues like my old 706Z reels would. I haven't seen this mentioned as variables in the discussion. But don't spool diameter and distance to the stripper still have an impact to new concept layout? (Not a loaded question, I really don't know. Just guessing that it would.)

Also, I accidentally bought 2 x SW1088 blanks from acidrod. I meant to buy one 1087 and one 1088 to check them both out first. (It sucks living so far from the coast! I have to buy almost everything online sight unseen.) For the guys that are accustomed to this type of panhandle pier fishing, what do you think of the SW1088? Would 1087 be better? The 1088 seems to have enough tip to throw the rated 4oz and likely more. But how will it do with a regular cigar minnow, or a dried-up tater chip LY??

I already have one very tip stiff glass rod that I hate. It will throw a 4oz crocodile spoon or big cobia jig a mile. But it sucks with live bait. Just don't need another one like it.

Thanks!
Jason


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## Twagon

Whatever you wish to do, remember, you can tape the guides on and test cast the rod until you're satisfied that it performs to your expectations. (I go ahead and glue the tip on first.) Sometimes a small adjustment can yield good dividends. Enjoy!


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## clubhunter

I think the 1087 would make a better King blank and the 1088 a cobia blank. 
I would also choke the guides down more from the intersect point to the tip. 
The one I made cast a mile. I'm still screwing around with my GUSA 85 MEGA MAG.


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## clubhunter

the rod i did build on the new concept guide system was a gator 7 1/2 foot with a 710z #30 power pro. i have 8 guides alconite fuji and used the intersect system of where to have smaller running guides start. 40, 25, 16, 
10's the rest of the way to the tip. it is extremely smooth casting.
i'm trying to come up with a good solution for my GUSA 85 MEGA MAG. i went and casted it with similar setup as above and it seemed to slap a little going through the 40. the reel is a 706z with #50 power pro. it might be the reel diameter is bigger so tomorrow i will change out the 40 for a 60 perfection wire guide. just lining it up, it looks better as the bottom of the spool lines up directly with the first 3 guides from reel seat.
any comments are welcome...


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## Jason4606

Clubhunter - Maybe I should tape a weight to the tip to see how the SW1088 loads up... But I think you're right on. It seems a little stiff for my taste, but pretty darn close. I was just concerned if the SW1087 would still have enough backbone as an all-around pier rod (still primarily a king rod) using 30lb braid...

Would anybody be interested in trading a SW1087 for one of my SW1088 blanks straight up?? (I just don't want to pay to ship it back to acidrod then pay to ship a new one to me too.)

Man... I wish I'd checked the thread again before ordering SVSG guides last night!  I guess I could always get more 10mm's pretty cheap and return (or just keep) others I end up not using - 30, 20 and 12.

I need to read up on the intersect system too. This is easy to find on Google, right? (I have a 5 page PDF chart from Fuji catalog for New Concept guide placement and there are a LOT of different layouts that use Very different sizes! But it only has generic use descriptions - it doesn't really tell you which group to look at based on reel/line size.)

Thanks for all of the info!

Jason


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## HellRhaY

40 is too big.
new guide concept in a nutshell is to use the smallest and fewest guides you can get away with.

note:
the intersect point is the old "ngc". the new ngc is 27 x the spool lip diameter of the reel.


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## clubhunter

I took the new way and measured the diameter of my 706z spool and it is 2 and 14/16". Taking the new formula of 27 times I come up around 77". The total length of the rod is 102". I'm totally confused as to what this means and how it would apply.
Help me out Please!


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## Jason4606

I read the New Guide Concept page from old KowaFuji.com website. See attached...

http://www.kowafuji.com/ngc.htm

But here's what I’ve concluded from this so far. The stripper and step down guide sizes matter since they need to be large enough to contain the "cone" of line as it makes its way off the spool to the intersect point. The number of guides should be neither high nor low, but somewhere in between to give max control without too much resistance. 

The 27x factor probably came about as an approximation based on the average spool centerline distances and spool shaft angles.

Per the diagram on the page linked above, you can calculate the intersect without using the 27x factor. Just measure the distance from the spool shaft to the blank. (3.875" for Penn 706Z) If you can measure the angle, good. If not we'll assume 4* they show is OK.

Intersect distance from Spool Face = Distance from spool shaft to blank / Tangent of Angle to shaft

So 706Z would be = 3.875" (measured) / tan 4* (assumed) = 3.875" / 0.0699 = 55.4"

We're ignoring shaft taper but we’re not splitting atoms here. This is still a huge difference from 77”!

I'm NOT a rod designer and this is the first time I’ve ever gone through this. I'm just trying to understand and use the design criteria that the engineers laid out in the linked document. Does my methodology below make any sense at all??

1) Look at the New Concept layout chart diagrams as a reference. I’d first look at the type of rod and also the choke down point to see which one looks closest to the intended use and measurement above. (Since the first guide size depends on the reel size and distance from the reel face, there may be some back and forth adjusting here…)

2) I will assume for this rod that the reel stem is 20" from the butt, and the stem to spool face of 706Z is another 2.5." So spool face is 22.5" total from butt.

3) So the choke down guide distance from the tip should be = Total rod length – 22.5” – 55.4” = 24.1” = 61cm

4) From this, the 8.5’ Seabass rod layout looks like the best as far as the choke down point. I’d think the 8mm guides shown are big enough for 50lb braid without leaders, but could always be bumped up to 10mm.

5) Then I would look at the distance from stripper to tip. The 8.5' Seabass layout puts the stripper at 145.5cm or ~57" from tip. (It might also be good to look at 7.5' or 8' chart for really long split rear grip. But I’ll stick with 8.5' and see what happens.)

6) So the distance from spool to stripper is: total blank - tip to stripper - butt to spool = 102" - 57" - 22.5" = 22.5"

7) Next I’d try to determine which stripper size is needed. To do so, I need the angle of the isosceles triangle that contains the line spiral from the spool to the intersection point. This is easy enough by dividing the isosceles into 2 right triangles. We already know the base (spool width is 3") and height. (distance to intersection)

1/2 of isosceles angle = Arctan (1/2 of spool width / intersect length)
1/2 of isosceles angle = Arctan (1.5 / 55.4) = 1.55*

7) Stripper diameter can now be determined using this angle.

1/2 stripper diameter = tan (1/2 isosceles angle) x distance from intersect to stripper
1/2 stripper diameter = tan (1.55*) x (55.4 – 22.5) = 0.89"
Stripper Diameter = 2 x 0.89 = 1.78" = 45.25mm ID.

But since 40mm is largest available right now, I’d have to go to wire or move farther from the reel. I haven’t mocked this up, but would probably try to eliminate one guide from the layout to get stripper farther away.

If I took out one 8 and went 40-25-16-10-8-8-8T it would move the whole layout 13.5cm toward tip. Stripper would then be 27.8” from reel, and 40mm would contain the cone!

This is all I could figure out about the process… I’m an engineer, but not a rod designer/builder. What I don’t know is the art behind tweaking this enough to get a great finished rod! 

- How far off am I with this?
- When the New Concept chart doesn’t fit, where is it best place to start adjusting?
- What is the real world impact of making these adjustments?

Mocking it up and eyeballing the spacing would go a long way to make sense of all of the numbers... But that takes components first. I'm hoping to learn enough so that I can at least be able to order the right stuff the first time!

Thanks,
Jason


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## clubhunter

Without going through the formula, i have these measurements...
1) butt to spool face when extended 21.5".
2) total length of rod 102"
4) tip to stripper 57"
stripper guide is 60 wire perfection and the rest are alconites down to 10's and 10 tip.

I'm totally lost on some of your formulas but understand some. 

I pulled up the web site and I can't find some of you references.

thanks for your input


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## philr

*NGC vs Fuji NGC*

The *new guide concept* is a formula using the spool lip diameter to locate and size your guides. The *Fuji new concept guide placement *is another guide placement chart. In it's simplest form; 27 x spool lip diameter is the distance from the spool face to the choke or intersect point. spool lip diameter/2 is the stripper guide size. Long rods (surf) or short rods (boat spinner) might require some tweaking and test casting for maximum performance. There is an article in the library section of rodbuilder.org that explains the process.

Phil R


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## clubhunter

philr said:


> The *new guide concept* is a formula using the spool lip diameter to locate and size your guides. The *Fuji new concept guide placement *is another guide placement chart. In it's simplest form; 27 x spool lip diameter is the distance from the spool face to the choke or intersect point. spool lip diameter/2 is the stripper guide size. Long rods (surf) or short rods (boat spinner) might require some tweaking and test casting for maximum performance. There is an article in the library section of rodbuilder.org that explains the process.
> 
> Phil R


If I were to use the 27 times spool width then the intersection point would be 3 1/2 inches from the tip. That really doesn't make sense at all.
Does this to you?


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## philr

*clubhunter*

Sorry for the confusion, I should have been clearer. I was pointing out that the NGC and Fuji NGC are completely different systems. From Jasons posts, he appeared to be trying to combine them. I never said it would work in all cases and it might not in yours. I'd suggest you read the article on rodbuilding.org and decide for yourself. (bear in mind; the table edge method has been replaced with X 27).

Phil R


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