# Recreational anglers and boaters in NC beware



## speckhunter80 (Oct 3, 2011)

To all recreational boaters and anglers that fish or boat in marine waters, the NCFA has issued an intent to sue multiple State and Federal agencies for what they consider unfair regulations targeting commercial fishermen in regards to sea turtle interactions. They feel that since they are being regulated all recreational anglers and boaters should also be regulated. If all boating and recreational angling is not stopped they will sue. DON'T BELIEVE ME... read page 9 of the letter of intent that is contained in this link. https://www.dropbox.com/s/2ysfry5c1nwtkps/Turtle press release.pdf


----------



## cooper138 (Aug 8, 2012)

wow...


----------



## River (Sep 30, 2006)

I don't believe I'd sell any of my fishin equipment just yet -- That could work the wrong way, I do feel for the Commercial guys - River


----------



## Drumdum (Jan 6, 2003)

This is an indirect shot over the bow at CCA by the coms... CCA went to bed with enviros, eventually they will get what's coming.. Shame of it is the revenge will be taken on the avg angler that has NOTHING to do with CCA and their ilk..


----------



## WNCRick (Sep 24, 2007)

I guess they are that stupid???????


----------



## WNCRick (Sep 24, 2007)

As I've said before, the local comm guys and myself get along very well..........these nitwits with lawyers and money are an entirely diff story. I wouldn't be surprised if they aren't environazi's in disguise. Just so everyone knows........Those are my feelings on the subject anyway, they don't speak for anyone I deal with personally.......... 

Rick


----------



## WNCRick (Sep 24, 2007)

Damn I have to add this..........my comm buddies offer me free trips out on their boats, free crab pots, free advice, free chances to scout, free everything. If i'm fishing, I offer the guides free info and sometimes free bait if I have it so they can have a good trip when they catch me out on the yak. I do the same for everyone.........I really don't see how we all don't get along down here? I could guarantee we'd all meet up at the bar and have a drink come sun down.... I just don't trust the few hammerheads that infiltrate the forums to appear be actual fishermen........I really don't think they are......

Rick


----------



## speckhunter80 (Oct 3, 2011)

It isn't the guy next door that is doing this it is the Wanchese Three disguised as the NCFA with Jerry Schill as their mouthpiece


----------



## WNCRick (Sep 24, 2007)

Well said speck. My friends will treat you like family.,,,,,,,,,,,I'm not sure who these damn people are....


----------



## WNCRick (Sep 24, 2007)

apparently this may be one of them, just a guess? 

Ken Seigler

Yes, that is Ken Seigler who sits on MFC Fin Fish Advisory Committee.


Just a guess, don't hold me to it, just a rumor..............I hold no responsibility if the above information is incorrect..............


----------



## WNCRick (Sep 24, 2007)

if this didn't matter it'd be funny..........


----------



## roostertail (Jul 7, 2012)

Someday when I get where I'm going maybe i'll understand why we have to bow low, put our faces to the ground, and worship whenever we see or hear of a C Turdle.


----------



## speckhunter80 (Oct 3, 2011)

WNCRick said:


> apparently this may be one of them, just a guess?
> 
> Ken Seigler
> 
> ...


Not exactly, he is more like a brainwashed gestapo foot soldier


----------



## WNCRick (Sep 24, 2007)

Let us know who then speck, really, I mean it, we all really do work together well down here, couldn't imagine us being divided..........could happen tho I buy oysters from them boys if it's too cold to get out........I just can't take anyone trying to divide us, we all get along well...............

Rick


----------



## Taylor Martin (Jan 23, 2014)

you really want some comedy, read page twelve of their press release, apparently the law firm did not even bother to read their press release.


----------



## beagle (Jun 9, 2009)

Bound to happen. You get a select group going after the comms using turtles as a lever, and back it comes.
Great strategey. Hope it doesn't stick. If one group can be penalized, we all can.
What REALLY needs to hapen is get 1/2 of these turtle species off the listings they are on. Both sides,(most of us), who go out and see what's out there can tell you there are loads of turtles out there.
One man's opinion.


----------



## Drumdum (Jan 6, 2003)

beagle said:


> Bound to happen. You get a select group going after the comms using turtles as a lever, and back it comes.
> Great strategey. Hope it doesn't stick. If one group can be penalized, we all can.
> What REALLY needs to hapen is get 1/2 of these turtle species off the listings they are on. Both sides,(most of us), who go out and see what's out there can tell you there are loads of turtles out there.
> One man's opinion.


 You will not get an argument here.. I've seen more turtles in the last 10yrs than in the past 40 of saltwater fishing combined...


----------



## JAM (Jul 22, 2002)

Whats good for the Goose is Good for the Gander.... Seen this one coming years ago......But no one listens....Everyone has their own agenda and knows it all .....JAM


----------



## Drumdum (Jan 6, 2003)

JAM said:


> Whats good for the Goose is Good for the Gander.... Seen this one coming years ago......But no one listens....Everyone has their own agenda and knows it all .....JAM


 It came in the sand,and if fishermen lay down with enviros over this,well,we will all get what we deserve ..... After seeing what has happened to our beaches here,with enviros behind ALL of it (and I USED TO LOVE BIRDS AND TURTLES,still do but won't tell an enviro) to unite with them to rid the waters of coms is suicide...


----------



## WNCRick (Sep 24, 2007)

"what's good for the goose is good for the gander" <-- waiting for a response about exactly what that means before I comment..........

Rick


----------



## pods (Sep 10, 2013)

This is how it works when they (the they being Agenda 21 folks) want to lock up a "resource" from the public. Divide and conquer. Comms vs recs. And we all play along.
I have seen this (by proxy) with gold dredging bans in California and elsewhere out west. They successfully pitted the trout fisherman against the gold dredgers. The fisherman go along with locking up lands from the dredgers due to aesthetics of cloudy water downstream from dredgers, etc. Once the dredgers are gone, then the fly fisherman can be targeted.
It all boils down to the people with the $$ behind this are smart people and they want limited to zero access for us to common resources, be it land, timber, gold, or fish.
Regular people never see the big picture, they only see the small part put in front of them. And each little argument does make some sense if looked at on its own (that is why it works dividing us).


----------



## Mark H. (Nov 26, 2005)

Drumdum said:


> It came in the sand,and if fishermen lay down with enviros over this,well,we will all get what we deserve ..... After seeing what has happened to our beaches here,with enviros behind ALL of it (and I USED TO LOVE BIRDS AND TURTLES,still do but won't tell an enviro) to unite with them to rid the waters of coms is suicide...


Well said.


----------



## Ryan Y (Dec 1, 2005)

At the boat ramp when we come in there is often a fisheries intern checking fish and asking questions down here. When they ask If we saw any sea turtles and how We often reply with yes. 75-or 80 or so. They were everywhere. We get a wierd look and they ask what we saw and if we can identify them. I tell them yes, the names and how many. Last time we were out the guy says "wow, maybe they are making a good comeback".


----------



## KB Spot Chaser (Nov 19, 2009)

Ryan Y said:


> At the boat ramp when we come in there is often a fisheries intern checking fish and asking questions down here. When they ask If we saw any sea turtles and how We often reply with yes. 75-or 80 or so. They were everywhere. We get a wierd look and they ask what we saw and if we can identify them. I tell them yes, the names and how many. Last time we were out the guy says "wow, maybe they are making a good comeback".


And then they see this,and say hmmm.


----------



## Drumdum (Jan 6, 2003)

I do not know about Ryan and what he has seen.. Although,I've seen HUNDREDS, literally hundreds of loggerheads going with the current in about 60' of water on a temp change.. Have seen them in good numbers in other spots as well.. Leatherbacks,yeah maybe threatened but loggerheads,NO WAY! Bad thing about this is usually a loggerhead goes down before you can get the cobes attached,where a leatherback can be seen for miles...


----------



## WNCRick (Sep 24, 2007)

Now I really hate that I had to turn down my guides invite back to his granny's house. Sea turtle was on the menu that night. Haven't had a chance to try it since I fished in the Caymans.............He said they were tasty...

Rick


----------



## KB Spot Chaser (Nov 19, 2009)

Drumdum said:


> I do not know about Ryan and what he has seen.. Although,I've seen HUNDREDS, literally hundreds of loggerheads going with the current in about 60' of water on a temp change.. Have seen them in good numbers in other spots as well.. Leatherbacks,yeah maybe threatened but loggerheads,NO WAY! Bad thing about this is usually a loggerhead goes down before you can get the cobes attached,where a leatherback can be seen for miles...


Yes, I agree, from the increase I have seen inside during the warm months, I can only imagine how many more there are offshore during cooler months along the breaks


----------



## Garboman (Jul 22, 2010)

Drumdum said:


> I do not know about Ryan and what he has seen.. Although,I've seen HUNDREDS, literally hundreds of loggerheads going with the current in about 60' of water on a temp change.. Have seen them in good numbers in other spots as well.. Leatherbacks,yeah maybe threatened but loggerheads,NO WAY! Bad thing about this is usually a loggerhead goes down before you can get the cobes attached,where a leatherback can be seen for miles...


Fishing Comm in the early 1990's we killed a few Turtles in Flounder Nets, a Flounder net set in mid summer will catch near as many Turtles as Flounders sometimes in the Pamlico Sound off of Salvo and Rodanthe

Most of the Turtles were still alive as we set for Flounders in very shallow water, although sometimes the Turtle tangled the net up so much that when the tide came in they were unable to poke their head to the surface and then the Turtle drowned.

We talked to the live Turtles that were in the nets very softly and gently stroked them so that they did not get excited and more important to us did not try to bite our hands unraveling the net tangles.

Most of the Turtles were Loggerheads but one time I caught and released a Green Turtle who was about thirty inches in diameter, it was a beautiful Turtle and I was tempted to keep him and build him a Turtle enclosure at Rodanthe Creek, I can still see him in my minds eye, much more appealing than a crusty old Loggerhead.

A female Marine Fisheries Turtle Researcher would beg us to take her out on the boat, she would rotate amongst the six Comm boats that fished out of Rodanthe Creek in those days and she would be very excited to see a Turtle show up so she could measure and record their particulars, at the time it was not mandatory that we take a Turtle Researcher, she kind of shamed us into taking her as a favor.

Anyway none of the seven crews that fished out of Rodanthe Creek back in the day are still at it, they either like myself went on to more profitable ways to make a living or in the case of four of the six Rodanthe Captains went to their Graves

I have think the Turtles probably like the way things turned out for their adversaries the Midgett's of Rodanthe


----------



## Garboman (Jul 22, 2010)

Drumdum said:


> I do not know about Ryan and what he has seen.. Although,I've seen HUNDREDS, literally hundreds of loggerheads going with the current in about 60' of water on a temp change.. Have seen them in good numbers in other spots as well.. Leatherbacks,yeah maybe threatened but loggerheads,NO WAY! Bad thing about this is usually a loggerhead goes down before you can get the cobes attached,where a leatherback can be seen for miles...


Turtles have it easy these days no one eats them

No wonder there are so many of them


----------



## Drumdum (Jan 6, 2003)

Garboman said:


> Turtles have it easy these days no one eats them
> 
> No wonder there are so many of them


 Shame no one else seems to see the amount of loggerheads we do,if they did,you MIGHT be able to eat one....


----------



## speckhunter80 (Oct 3, 2011)

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF NORTH CAROLINA
EASTERN DIVISION
CIVIL ACTION NO.: 4:14-cv-138
NORTH CAROLINA FISHERIES )
ASSOCIATION, INC.; and )
CARTERET COUNTY FISHERMAN’S )
ASSOCIATION, INC., )
)
Plaintiffs, )
)
vs. ) COMPLAINT FOR DECLARATORY
) AND INJUNCTIVE RELIEF
PENNY PRITZKER, Secretary, United )
States Department of Commerce; SALLY, )
JEWELL, Secretary, United States )
Department of Interior; DR. KATHLEEN )
SULLIVAN, Administrator, National )
Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration; )
DANIEL ASHE, Director, United States )
Fish and Wildlife Services; JOHN E. )
SKVARLA, Secretary, North Carolina )
Department of Environment and Natural )
Resources; DR. LOUIS DANIEL, )
Executive Director, North Carolina )
Division of Marine Fisheries; and, )
GORDON S. MYERS, Executive )
Director, North Carolina Wildlife )
Resources Commission, )
)
Defendants. )
I. INTRODUCTION
1. North Carolina Fisheries Association and Carteret County Fisherman’s Association (collectively “Plaintiffs”) challenge the failures of the Secretary of the U.S. Department of Commerce, the Secretary of the U.S. Department of Interior, the Administrator of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (“NOAA”), the Director of the United Case 4:14-cv-00138-D Document 1 Filed 08/05/14 Page 1 of 19

2
States Fish and Wildlife Service (“USFWS”), the Secretary of the North Carolina Department of Environment and Natural Resources (“NCDENR”), the Executive Director of the North Carolina Division of Marine Fisheries (“NCDMF”), and the Executive Director of the North Carolina Wildlife Resources Commission (“NCWRC”), (collectively “Defendants”) to comply with mandatory obligations under the Endangered Species Act (“ESA”), 16 U.S.C. § 1531, et seq., and properly utilize their authority to conserve, manage, and regulate recognized marine environmental threats to prevent the known unlawful takes of threatened and endangered marine sea turtles.
2. Specifically, the Defendants have long recognized that the recreational hook and line fishery has been in violation of the ESA, yet even with this knowledge, Defendants have failed to take action to prevent the illegal take of sea turtles in this fishery and failed to ensure that the fishery is not likely to jeopardize the continued existence of federally listed sea turtle species.
3. While Defendants’ own scientific data acknowledge significant numbers of illegal incidental takes of protected sea turtles by the recreational hook and line fishery Defendants have ignored this data and instead, arbitrarily and capriciously placed virtually the entire burden of sea turtle conservation efforts and regulation on commercial fisheries. The commercial fishery has been, and continues to be, highly regulated regarding conservation efforts directed at sea turtles. There currently exists no comparable management, regulation, or oversight for the recreational hook and line fishery despite knowledge of significant numbers of unlawful takes by these resource user groups. Case 4:14-cv-00138-D Document 1 Filed 08/05/14 Page 2 of 19
3
4. By failing to respond to documented threats to sea turtle recovery and continuing to authorize, approve, and license recreational hook and line fishery without observation, oversight, documentation, or regulation of sea turtle takes, Defendants continue to violate the ESA and its requirements to utilize its authorities in furtherance of species conservation and prevent the illegal taking of protected sea turtles.
II. JURISDICTION AND VENUE
5. This Court has jurisdiction over this action pursuant to 28 U.S.C. §§ 1331, 2201, 2202, and 16 U.S.C. §§ 1540(c) and 1540(g).
6. Pursuant to 16 U.S.C. § 1540(g), sixty (60) days notice of the violations alleged in this Complaint was provided to Defendants prior to the filing of this action.
7. Venue is proper in this district pursuant to 28 U.S.C. §1391(e).
III. PARTIES
8. Plaintiff North Carolina Fisheries Association, Inc. (“NCFA”) is a non-profit corporation organized and existing under North Carolina law, with its principle place of business in Pamlico County, North Carolina. NCFA’s mission objectives include the study, promotion, and development of growth and conservation and use of fish, seafood, and other marine resources; to assemble and disseminate information with respect to conservation, preservation and use of products of the sea; to gather and disseminate information which will be beneficial to those engaged in catching, taking, preparing, preserving, distributing, or using any form of marine life; and, to cooperate with other organizations and state and federal agencies created for any of the foregoing purposes. NCFA members include, but are not limited to, commercial fishermen from all coastal counties in North Carolina, seafood dealers, processors, and distributors which are Case 4:14-cv-00138-D Document 1 Filed 08/05/14 Page 3 of 19
4
directly affected by the Endangered Species Act and regulations promulgated therefrom regarding threatened and endangered sea turtles.
9. Plaintiff Carteret County Fisherman’s Association, Inc. (“CCFA”) is a non-profit corporation organized and existing under North Carolina law, with its principle place of business in Carteret County, North Carolina. CCFA’s mission objectives include the study, promotion, and development of growth and conservation and use of fish, seafood, and other marine resources; to assemble and disseminate information with respect to conservation, preservation and use of products of the sea; to gather and disseminate information which will be beneficial to those engaged in catching, taking, preparing, preserving, distributing, or using any form of marine life; and, to cooperate with other organizations and state and federal agencies created for any of the foregoing purposes. Its members include commercial fishermen in the Carteret, Onslow, and Pamlico counties of North Carolina which are directly affected by the Endangered Species Act and regulations promulgated therefrom regarding threatened and endangered sea turtles.
10. Plaintiff NCFA and CCFA and its members have suffered injury to their economic and environmental interests which are uniquely entwined with endangered and threatened sea turtles.
11. Defendant Penny Pritzker, in her official capacity as Secretary, U.S. Department of Commerce is the chief officer and bears ultimate responsibility, concurrent with the Secretary, Department of the Interior, for implementation and fulfillment of the agencies under her Department duties under the ESA, specifically, NOAA.
12. Defendant Sally Jewell, in her official capacity as Secretary, U.S. Department of the Interior, is the chief officer and bears ultimate responsibility, concurrent with the Case 4:14-cv-00138-D Document 1 Filed 08/05/14 Page 4 of 19
5
Secretary, Department of Commerce, for implementation and fulfillment of the agencies under her Department duties under the ESA, specifically, USFWS.
13. Defendant Dr. Kathryn Sullivan in her official capacity as Administrator, National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, has responsibility for implementing and fulfilling the agency’s duties under the ESA.
14. Defendant Daniel Ashe, in his official capacity as Director, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Services, has responsibility for implementing and fulfilling the agency’s duties under the ESA.
15. Defendant John E. Skvarla III in his official capacity as Secretary, North Carolina Department of Environment and Natural Resources, is the chief officer and bears ultimate responsibility for the protection of the environment and natural resources of North Carolina including sea turtles in state waters and the direction of agencies under the control of NCDENR.
16. Defendant Dr. Louis Daniel, in his official capacity as Executive Director, North Carolina Division of Marine Fisheries, has responsibility for ensuring sustainable marine and estuarine fisheries and habitats in North Carolina. In addition, NCDMF regulates the recreational hook and line fishery in inshore and coastal waters of North Carolina.
17. Defendant Gordon S. Myers, in his official capacity as Executive Director, North Carolina Wildlife Resources Commission, has responsibility to conserve and sustain the state’s fish and wildlife resources through research, scientific management, wise use, and public input. NCWRC is responsible for the enforcement of North Carolina fishing and boating laws in state waters as well as licensing of recreational hook and line fishermen.


----------



## speckhunter80 (Oct 3, 2011)

IV. THE ENDANGERED SPECIES ACT Case 4:14-cv-00138-D Document 1 Filed 08/05/14 Page 5 of 19
6
18. Congress enacted the ESA to provide both “a means whereby the ecosystems upon which endangered and threatened species depend may be conserved,” and “a program for the conservation of such endangered species and threatened species.” 16 U.S.C. § 1531(b).
19. The ESA affords first priority to the preservation of endangered and threatened species. Section 2(c) of the ESA states it is “the policy of Congress that all Federal departments and agencies shall seek to conserve endangered species and threatened species and shall utilize their authorities in furtherance of the purposes of this Act.” 16 U.S.C. § 1531(c)(1). The ESA defines “conservation” as “the use of all methods and procedures which are necessary to bring any endangered species or threatened species to the point at which the measures provided pursuant to this Act are no longer necessary.” 16 U.S.C. § 1532(3). “Such methods and procedures include, but are not limited to, all activities associated with scientific resource management such as research, census, law enforcement [and] may include regulated taking” of protected species. Id.
20. Further, federal agencies “shall cooperate with State and local agencies to resolve water resource issues in concert with conservation of endangered species.” 16 U.S.C. § 1531(c)(2).
21. The ESA makes it illegal for any person to “take” threatened or endangered species. 16 U.S.C. §1538(a)(1). The term “person” means any “individual […] or any officer, employee, agent, department, or instrumentality of the Federal Government, of any State […].” 16 U.S.C. § 1532(13). The term “take” is broadly defined to include actions that “harass, harm, pursue, hunt, shoot, wound, kill, trap, capture, or collect, or […] attempt to engage in such conduct.” 16 U.S.C. § 1532(19). Congress intended the term “take” to be Case 4:14-cv-00138-D Document 1 Filed 08/05/14 Page 6 of 19
7
defined in the “broadest possible manner to include every conceivable way” in which a person could harm or kill fish or wildlife.1
22. The ESA “not only prohibits the acts of those parties that directly exact the taking, but also bans those acts of a third party that bring about the acts exacting a taking[.]” Strahan v. Coxe, et al., 127 F.3d 155 (1st Cir. 1997); 16 U.S.C. § 1538(g). A governmental third party pursuant to whose authority an actor directly exacts a taking of a protected species may be deemed to have violated the ESA prohibition of taking protected species. Id.
23. The take of protected species may only occur in very limited circumstances closely regulated by the Federal agencies. The U.S. Department of Commerce, through NOAA, and the U.S. Department of Interior, through USFWS may issue permits or incidental take permits (“ITP”) sanctioning the taking of a protected species where such taking is “incidental to, and not the purpose of, carrying out of an otherwise lawful activity.” 16 U.S.C § 1539(a)(1)(B). Unless a particular fishery has been properly exempted in accordance with this section, any incidental take of protected species is unlawful and in violation of the ESA. No such ITP exists for the recreational hook and line fishery despite documented evidence that incidental takes in this fishery occur in high numbers.
V. LEGAL FRAMEWORK
24. All species of sea turtles found in U.S. waters are listed as endangered or threatened under the ESA and as such are protected by the take prohibitions set forth in Section 9 of the ESA.
1 See S. Rep. No. 307 93rd Cong., 1st Sess. 1, reprinted in 1973 U.S. Code Cong. & Admin. News, 2989, 2995. Case 4:14-cv-00138-D Document 1 Filed 08/05/14 Page 7 of 19
8
25. Both the Department of Commerce (through NOAA) and the Department of Interior (through USFWS) are charged with the administration of the ESA with respect to sea turtles.
26. To help identify and guide the protection, conservation and recovery of sea turtles, the ESA requires NOAA and USFWS to develop and implement recovery plans for the U.S. sea turtle population. 16 U.S.C. § 1533(f). Each recovery plan outlines “management actions as may be necessary to achieve the plan’s goal for the conservation and survival of the species” and “objective, measurable criteria which, when met, would result in a determination, in accordance with the provisions of [the ESA], that the species be removed from the list”. Id. To date, no sea turtle populations have been delisted or reclassified under the ESA.
27. Despite having no mandatory reporting or observation requirements in the recreational hook and line fishery by which to obtain objective, measurable criteria, Defendants have long recognized that the recreational hook and line fishery has significant numbers of illegal takes of sea turtles. By refusing to respond to these known threats and allowing the continued illegal takes of sea turtles in violation of the ESA, Defendants have failed to utilize their authorities in furtherance of the ESA for the survival, conservation, and recovery of sea turtles.


----------



## speckhunter80 (Oct 3, 2011)

VI. ILLEGAL TAKES OF SEA TURTLES IN THE RECREATIONAL HOOK AND LINE FISHERY
28. Over 30 years ago, NOAA and USFWS formally recognized that sea turtle population losses from incidental take were particularly costly to the recovery of endangered or threatened sea turtles.2 In 1984, NOAA and the USFWS formulated a multi-species
2 1984 Plan, p. 19 Case 4:14-cv-00138-D Document 1 Filed 08/05/14 Page 8 of 19
9
recovery plan for five sea turtle species occurring in the U.S. which formally identified the recreational hook and line fishery as a threat to the recovery of protected sea turtles. This initial plan was followed by individual species plans developed by recovery teams for the U.S. Atlantic turtle species in the early 1990’s and the U.S. Pacific species in the late 1990’s. The most recent revisions to certain recovery plans were approved in 2013.
29. Each of these recovery plans, promulgated by ESA mandate, identify specific marine environmental threats to sea turtle recovery. Among other threats, the recovery plans specifically identify incidental takes by recreational hook and line fishermen as significant threats to the recovery of sea turtles.
30. In the multi-species Recovery Plan for Marine Turtles; 1984 (“1984 Plan”), NOAA and USFWS state that in addition to incidental encounters with commercial fishing gear, these Defendants knew of turtle takes “with baited hook and line, including sport fishing tackle.”3 Despite recognizing illegal recreational takes are a threat to species recovery, virtually all regulations and reporting requirements have been placed on the commercial fishery while ignoring increasing incidental recreational takes.4
31. In 1991, NOAA and USFWS approved its Recovery Plan for Atlantic Green Turtle. (“AGT Plan”). In drafting the AGT Plan, these Defendants acknowledge that in addition to incidental takes in the commercial fishery, the recreational fishery is extensive and turtle takes on hook and line gear are not uncommon.5 The AGT Plan requires that “f any fisheries are found to result in significant take of sea turtles, regulations to protect turtles should be published by NOAA Fisheries or appropriate State Resource
3 Id., p. 54
4 Id., p. 80
5 AGT Plan, p. 8 Case 4:14-cv-00138-D Document 1 Filed 08/05/14 Page 9 of 19
10
Agencies.”6 Despite this requirement, virtually no oversight, enforcement or regulation regarding unlawful takes of sea turtles by the recreational hook and line fishery exists.
32. The Bi-National Recovery Plan for the Kemp’s Ridley Sea Turtle; 2011 (“Kemp’s Plan”), also published and approved by NOAA and USFWS, states that significant takes of Kemp’s ridley turtles occur in the recreational fisheries.7 Based on 2006 data from NOAA, the Kemp’s Plan reveals that an estimated 27,291 hard shell turtles were taken by recreational hook and line fishermen along the Gulf Coast (excluding Texas) alone.8 Defendants NOAA and USFWS admit efforts are needed that would reduce the number of interactions with both recreational and commercial fisheries.9 Scientists for these Defendants have determined that the recreational hook and line fishery results in an estimated mortality of Kemp’s ridley turtles equal to that of the demersal gill net commercial fishery that is highly regulated and observed.10 Defendants have focused conservation and regulation efforts almost solely on commercial fisheries while ignoring significant illegal turtle takes by the recreational hook and line fishery and its impact on sea turtle recovery.
33. The Recovery Plan for the Northwest Atlantic Population of the Loggerhead Sea Turtle; 2008, recognizes that the recreational hook and line fishery is extensive, particularly in the southeastern U.S.11 Defendant NOAA has determined that aside from the highly regulated commercial fishery, recreational hook and line takes of loggerhead turtles rank
6 Id., p. 27
7 Kemp’s Plan, p. II-13
8 Id., p. I-59
9 Id., p. II-13
10 Id.
11 Loggerhead Plan, p. I-49 Case 4:14-cv-00138-D Document 1 Filed 08/05/14 Page 10 of 19
11
among the highest of bycatch fisheries.12 Despite this acknowledgement, virtually no regulation, enforcement, or oversight exists for the recreational hook and line fishery.
34. The Recovery Plan for Leatherback Turtles; 1992 (“Leatherback Plan”) states that in addition to commercial fisheries, recreational fisheries, such as hook and line, incidentally take leatherback turtles.13 In recognizing these takes by recreational fisherman, Defendant’s recovery team notes that efforts are needed to monitor incidental takes both commercial and recreational fisheries to determine the full extent of their impacts.14
35. While commercial fisheries with similar incidental take numbers are highly scrutinized through mandatory reporting and on-board observers to document these takes, there are no such similar requirements on the recreational hook and line fishery to report or observe unlawful takes of protected sea turtles.
36. The unlawful takes of sea turtles in North Carolina fisheries has been known for several decades by Defendants but only a few fisheries management measures have been put in place to mitigate these illegal takes.15 By-catch has been assessed and mitigated in some fisheries but completely ignored in others.16 Defendant NCWRC has even determined that fundamental changes are required to manage sea turtle takes but have taken no such steps to protect sea turtles from illegal takes in the recreational hook and line fishery.
37. Since 1997, North Carolina has monitored sea turtle strandings in its state waters through weekly reporting. In addition to the mandatory reporting of interactions in certain commercial fisheries, these reports include some voluntarily reported takes by
12 Id., p. V-11
13 Leatherback Plan, p. 9
14 Id., p. 29
15 C.M. McClellan et. al., Marine Policy 35 (2011)
16 Id. Case 4:14-cv-00138-D Document 1 Filed 08/05/14 Page 11 of 19
12
recreational fishermen. The data shows that in the period between January 1 and September 6, 2013, over 45% of the reported strandings were directly attributable to the hook and line fishery.17 As no requirement exists mandating the reporting of takes by recreational hook and line fishermen, the actual number of illegal takes in this fishery is believed to be much higher.


----------



## speckhunter80 (Oct 3, 2011)

38. NCDMF, through its Sea Turtle Advisory Committee (“STAC”), has specifically identified recreational hook and line as a gear of primary concern in its state regulated waters.18 The STAC notes that potential interactions result from high recreational effort, known interactions of turtles striking baited hooks, and documented mortality.19 One sea turtle rescue facility veterinarian in North Carolina estimates that 15% of the sea turtles seen in the facility are a result of entanglement in hook and line gear.20 Despite identifying recreational hook and line as a gear of primary concern, Defendants have instituted no mandatory regulations on this fishery to prevent illegal turtle takes, instead focusing virtually all management efforts on the commercial fishery.
39. Defendant Dr. Louis Daniel, executive director of NCDMF, has known of unlawful takes of sea turtles by the recreational hook and line fishery and has refused to take action to monitor or prevent these illegal takes of protected species. After the NCDMF’s Sea Turtle Advisory Committee determined recreational hook and line to be a gear of primary concern, requests were made through the STAC and personally to Defendant Daniel to observe this fishery and to determine the extent to which it resulted in unlawful takes of sea turtles. Defendant Daniel, himself an avid recreational fisherman, has ignored these
17 North Carolina weekly stranding reports, Jan. – Sept 6, 2013
18 NCDMF Sea Turtle Advisory Committee, 2006, p. 31
19 Id.
20 NCDMF publication, Fish Eye News, Oct. 2010 Case 4:14-cv-00138-D Document 1 Filed 08/05/14 Page 12 of 19
13
requests and taken no steps to decrease or even document such illegal takes after requested to do so.
40. In the October 2010 edition of the NCDMF’s publication, Fish Eye News, there was an article entitled “Sometimes They Bite the Hook”, regarding sea turtle interacting with recreational hook and line fisheries. In the article, a prominent recreational fisherman and fishing guide was interviewed. In the interview, he indicated that he “see sea turtles about every trip we go in the ocean” … “I’ve caught them on shrimp beside the turning basin on a two-hook bottom rig.” This particular fisherman was appointed to the North Carolina Marine Fisheries Commission [“MFC”] in July 2011. The MFC is the rule making body of the NCDMF, responsible for the adoption of regulations to be followed in the management, protection, preservation and enhancement of the marine and estuarine resources within its jurisdiction, including commercial and sports fisheries resources. Notwithstanding knowledge at the highest level of North Carolina’s fisheries rule making body, no measures have been taken to protect endangered and threatened sea turtles from illegal takes by the recreational hook and line fishery.
41. With knowledge of unlawful takes in the hook and line fishery, it has been requested that Defendant Daniel take the following actions to protect sea turtles in accordance with the ESA:
a. Provide for on-water and land based observation of recreational hook and line fisheries for turtle interactions in all coastal waters of North Carolina to help determine the number of takes and collect valuable data to better quantify the magnitude to these illegal takes.
b. Enact measures to reduce illegal takes by the recreational hook and line fishery. Case 4:14-cv-00138-D Document 1 Filed 08/05/14 Page 13 of 19
14
c. Require operators of For Hire fishing guide services to comply with sea turtle release procedures published by NOAA and have onboard specific gear to ensure the proper release of incidentally caught sea turtles.
d. Require recreational hook and line fishermen to report incidental takes.
As of this filing, Defendant Daniel has refused to formally implement any observation or means to ensure sea turtles are protected from illegal takes in the recreational hook and line fishery despite the acknowledgement that this fishery results in significant number of turtle takes.
42. The Defendants, USFWS and NOAA have failed to implement any measures to observe and prevent the illegal take of protected sea turtles by recreational hook and line fishermen.
43. A study between 1997 and 2009 of fishery gear interactions in Florida, conducted in part by scientists for Defendant NOAA, noted the most common gear for interaction was hook and line.21 These scientists documented over 1,000 protected sea turtles with fishing gear interactions. Of these, interactions, 75.3% were attributable to hook and line fishing gear.22 Due to the large numbers of recreational hook and line fishermen, these interactions occur more often than any other gear type.23
44. Since 2010, over 500 turtles have been reported caught by anglers from fishing piers in Mississippi.24 On May 5th and 8th, 2014, five Kemp’s ridley sea turtles were caught by recreational hook and line fishermen from a single fishing pier on Topsail Island, North Carolina, according to the Weekly Summary of Stranded Sea Turtles in North Carolina, NC Sea Turtle Project, NCWRC.
21 N.M. Adimey et al., Marine Pollution Bulletin 81 (2014)
22 Id.
23 Id.
24 34th Annual Symposium on Sea Turtle Biology and Conservation; 2014 Case 4:14-cv-00138-D Document 1 Filed 08/05/14 Page 14 of 19
15


----------



## speckhunter80 (Oct 3, 2011)

45. Between the period of January 1 and September 6, 2013, the Sea Turtle Project indicated that over 45% of all strandings reported during this time frame were directly attributable to the hook and line fishery. As no requirement exists mandating the reporting of takes by recreational hook and line fishermen, either in North Carolina or other coastal states, these voluntarily reported numbers are believed to be much lower than the actual number of takes by recreational hook and line fishermen.
46. An article in the June 27, 2014 Virginian Pilot stated that in the weeks between mid-May and June 27, 2014, nine turtles had been reported hooked by recreational fishermen in Virginia Beach, Virginia. Upon information and belief, similar numbers of illegal takes of sea turtles by the recreational hook and line fishery occur in every state in which sea turtles are found.
VII. VIOLATION OF THE ESA TAKE PROVISIONS BY THE RECREATIONAL HOOK AND LINE FISHERY
47. Plaintiff’s reallege and incorporate by reference each allegation set forth above in this Complaint.
48. Section 9 of the ESA prohibits the “take” of endangered species. 16 U.S.C. § 1538(g)(a)(1). It also prohibits the causing of take to occur. Id. 1538(g). These prohibitions on take extend to endangered or threatened sea turtles.
49. With full knowledge that the recreational hook and line fishery result in high numbers of illegal takes of protected sea turtles, Defendants have violated and continue to violate Section 9 of the ESA by allowing and authorizing this resource use to occur without any oversight or regulation to account for, or prevent further detrimental impacts to sea turtle recovery.
VIII. STATUS OF THE SPECIES Case 4:14-cv-00138-D Document 1 Filed 08/05/14 Page 15 of 19
16
50. Regular population assessments are necessary to measure progress toward achieving recovery goals for all sea turtle species to provide the foundation for evaluating recovery.25 Before any sea turtle species can be delisted and or downlisted, a determination must be made “solely on the basis of the best scientific and commercial data available after conducting a review of the status of the species”.26
51. Upon information and belief, despite Defendants failure to comply with the ESA, all sea turtle species within the Northwest Atlantic Distinct Population Segment have continued to experience significant population increases.
52. Based on data beginning in 1966, a 2013 Kemp’s ridley stock assessment documents the number of nests increased exponentially through 2009 when 19,163 nests were observed on the primary nesting beaches in Mexico.27 The average rate of increase of nesting Kemp’s ridleys was on the order of 19%.28 In 2010, 2011 and 2012, the preliminary estimates of nests observed were 12,377, 19,368 and 20,197 respectively.29 It was estimated over one million hatchlings were released in 2011 and 2012 and it was estimated the total population of Kemp’s ridley in recent years is likely in excess of one million turtles including about a quarter million subadults and adults.30
53. The Bi-National Recovery Plan for the Kemp’s Ridley Sea Turtle; 2011 provides the following downlisting criteria:
C.1 Downlisting Criteria
1. A population of at least 10,000 nesting females in a season (as estimated by clutch frequency per female per season) distributed at the
25 NMFS Sea Turtle Assessment Status and Research Needs; July 2013
26 16 U.S.C. § 1533(b)(emphasis added).
27 Gulf States Marine Fisheries Commission, Kemp’s Ridley Stock Assessment Project; June 2013
28 Id.
29 Id. (Note 2010 nesting numbers were 12,377 but quickly recovered to 2009 levels or higher).
30 Id. Case 4:14-cv-00138-D Document 1 Filed 08/05/14 Page 16 of 19
17
primary nesting beaches (Rancho Nuevo, Tepehuajes, and Playa Dos) in Mexico is attained.
2. Recruitment of at least 300,000 hatchlings to the marine environment per season at the three primary nesting beaches (Rancho Nuevo, Tepehuajes, and Playa Dos) in Mexico is attained to ensure a minimum level of known production through in situ incubation, incubation in corrals, or a combination of both.
54. Upon information and belief, the Kemp’s ridley species is ripe for downlisting according to recovery criteria for this turtle species.
55. A 2010 NOAA report of the northwestern Atlantic population segment of loggerhead sea turtle documents an abundance estimate of positively identified loggerheads at 588,000.31 When an appropriate proportion of observed turtles which could not be positively identified as loggerheads was included in the study, the regional abundance estimate increased to about 801,000 with an inter-quartile range of about 521,000 – 1,111,000 loggerhead turtles in the Atlantic Ocean from the beach to the continental shelf in the area from Cape Canaveral Florida to the mouth of the Gulf of St. Lawrence, Canada.32
56. The loggerhead, green, and leatherback sea turtle recovery plans identify no similar quantitative methodology to determine a point at which those species may be delisted or downlisted and therefore, no real manner to gauge the effectiveness of protection efforts or ability to conduct a review of the status of the species as required by 16 U.S.C. § 1533(b).
57. Upon information and belief all turtle species continue to experience significant population increases like the examples above and an immediate stock assessment should be required to evaluate the stock of the loggerhead, green, and leatherback sea turtles and
31 Preliminary Summer 2010 Regional Abundance Estimate of Loggerhead Turtles in Northwestern Atlantic Ocean Continental Shelf Waters; April 2011.
32 Id. Case 4:14-cv-00138-D Document 1 Filed 08/05/14 Page 17 of 19
18
whether or not they have attained delisting and/or downlisting status pursuant to 16 U.S.C. § 1533.
58. Upon information and belief, the northwestern Atlantic population segment of the loggerhead sea turtle is ripe for delisting.
59. Defendants own scientific data recognizes the recreational hook and line fishery results in significant numbers of illegal sea turtle takes in violation of the ESA. Until such time as it is determined the Kemp’s ridley, green, loggerhead, and leatherback sea turtles are appropriate for delisting and/or downlisting, the regulations to protect sea turtles should include observation and enforcement of take prohibitions in the recreational hook and line fishery.
IX. PRAYER FOR RELIEF
WHEREFORE, Plaintiff’s request that this Court:
1. Adjudge and decree that Defendants have violated and continue to violation Section 9 of the ESA and implementing regulations by allowing the recreational hook and line fishery to operate in a manner that has caused and is continuing to cause the illegal take of endangered Kemp’s ridley sea turtles, and the unauthorized take of threatened loggerhead, green, and leatherback sea turtles;
2. Order the Defendants to apply the take prohibitions of Section 9 and implementing regulations with respect to the unauthorized take of sea turtles by the recreational hook and line fishery unless and until the fishery has received a incidental take permit;
3. Order National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration and US Fish and Wildlife Service to conduct in-water abundance surveys and nesting population surveys for the northwestern Atlantic population segment of the loggerhead sea turtle, the green sea Case 4:14-cv-00138-D Document 1 Filed 08/05/14 Page 18 of 19
19
turtle, and the leatherback sea turtle, in order to assess the status of the species as required by 16 U.S.C. § 1533(b).
4. Enjoin Defendants from allowing the ongoing operation of the recreational hook and line fishery until such time as an incidental take permit is issued;
5. Award Plaintiffs their costs of litigation, including reasonable attorney and expert witness fees, pursuant to the citizen suit provision of the ESA; and,
6. Grant Plaintiff’s such further additional equitable relief that the court deem just and proper.
This the 5th day of August, 2014.
WHEATLY, WHEATLY, WEEKS, LUPTON & MASSIE, P.A.
STEVENSON L. WEEKS
/s/ Stevenson L. Weeks________________
N.C. Bar No.: 9515
E-mail: [email protected]
710 Cedar Street
Beaufort, North Carolina 28516
Telephone No.: (252) 728-3158
WESLEY C. COOPER
/s/ Wesley C. Cooper_________________
N.C. Bar No.: 44985
E-mail: [email protected]
710 Cedar Street
Beaufort, North Carolina 28516
Telephone No.: (252) 728-3158
Attorneys for Plaintiffs
Case 4:14-cv-00138-D Document 1 Filed 08/05/14 Page 19 of 19


----------



## Drumdum (Jan 6, 2003)

Speckhunter,there's a lot of reading there,but from the jest of it,the turtle people lost one??? They have to reassess the populations?? Sorry too eye weary to read ALL of that..


----------



## dirtyhandslopez (Nov 17, 2006)

Judge is probably having a hard time reading it too.
Nice to know, in no. 55, that there were 588,000.31 logger heads caught. Did somebody catch nearly a third of one(31%)?
Snappers put up a tussle that's for sure. Can't say that I've heard of anyone catching a sea going turtle.


----------



## GaryM (Oct 22, 2013)

An ingenious way of forcing the fed and state to do their job, and survey the population for possible de listing. Now if you guys could just get the commercial fishermen to take on the bird people you might start getting some of you coastline back...or at least stabilize your losses.


----------



## JAM (Jul 22, 2002)

They will shut it all Down, If 6 Turtle are observed in the the Pamlico Sound, they shut down Gill Net Fishing for Flounder. What you are seeing is more then a Shot over the Bow, Recreational Fishermen will now Be held accountable for their Kills. Trip Tickets for the Rec is Soon to Follow as well. 

With Groups Like the CCA and NCFMY and a Few others F ing with Coms for over 30 = Years. It looks Like Pay Back is Coming and IMHO and I'm a Rec, It is well Deserved. They have just Deemed 96 Miles of the NC Coast Critical Wintering Habitat for Turtles. That will include Inside and Outside Waters. Part of this is YOU will not be able to RUN a BOAT anywhere in these waters, for any Purpose. Fishing, Diving, Swiming, Tubing ANYTHING. 

You all were warned about this by myself and others for the last 10 Years, these will be called MPA's or Marine Protected Areas, welcome to my World of Beach Access, cept NOW it will Affect Everyone and it will affect the water ways as well. It will only help IMHO to Bring more of you out to my Protest on the Beach in a Few months called "Bring Your Long Rifle To the Beach Day" 

So all of You CCA and NCFMY warriors, you have just Cut off your Own Heads and I find it Hilarious. Don't worry there will be NO ECONOMIC IMPACT AT ALL, thats what we were told.... Enjoy I have been Living this for 8 Years...

PS it's not gonna stop in NC, California has one of the Largest MPA's In the US and Biscayne Bay Fla. is about to be shut down also. I told you'all long ago either we can stick together or we can HANG INDIVIDUALLY... Looks to me the Hangings have started... but keep sending money to the CCA.. LMFAO.... It is well deserved.. And Speck 80 was one of the biggest loud mouths against comms....

PSS Glad I have over 30 years of IT experience, looks Like I will be going back to work doing IT and Vacationing in Exotic Locations around the World, Outside of the USA.. You'all can keep the USA... 

JAM OUT


----------



## speckhunter80 (Oct 3, 2011)

JAM said:


> They will shut it all Down, If 6 Turtle are observed in the the Pamlico Sound, they shut down Gill Net Fishing for Flounder. What you are seeing is more then a Shot over the Bow, Recreational Fishermen will now Be held accountable for their Kills. Trip Tickets for the Rec is Soon to Follow as well.
> 
> With Groups Like the CCA and NCFMY and a Few others F ing with Coms for over 30 = Years. It looks Like Pay Back is Coming and IMHO and I'm a Rec, It is well Deserved. They have just Deemed 96 Miles of the NC Coast Critical Wintering Habitat for Turtles. That will include Inside and Outside Waters. Part of this is YOU will not be able to RUN a BOAT anywhere in these waters, for any Purpose. Fishing, Diving, Swiming, Tubing ANYTHING.
> 
> ...


That is funny since it took 3 months and the intercession of a former admin. to get accepted to the NCMFY Facebook page because I wouldn't join their "ban the gillnet" crusade. Took five minutes today to get accepted to the comms NCMFY2 Facebook page. My commercial fisherman neighbors would disagree with your characterization of me but it really doesn't matter to me what you think. You are not the first to incorrectly label me as being against commercial fishermen.


----------



## fishnnk (Jun 24, 2014)

Garboman said:


> Turtles have it easy these days no one eats them
> 
> No wonder there are so many of them



TIGER sharks LOOOOOVE turtles!


----------



## moose22dog (Feb 17, 2010)

^^ yes they do^^


----------



## JAM (Jul 22, 2002)

Funny there is NOT a NCFMY2 FB page, more BS from Speck80
JAM


----------



## speckhunter80 (Oct 3, 2011)

N.C. Fishery Management and You 2 PUT IN YOUR FB SEARCH BAR AND YOU WILL FIND THAT IT IS A CLOSED GROUP BUT IT'S THERE

https://www.facebook.com/groups/ncfmy/ CLICK ON THE LINK


----------



## JAM (Jul 22, 2002)

speckhunter80 said:


> N.C. Fishery Management and You 2 PUT IN YOUR FB SEARCH BAR AND YOU WILL FIND THAT IT IS A CLOSED GROUP BUT IT'S THERE
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/ncfmy/ CLICK ON THE LINK



YUP more CCA propaganda, mate from a Boat down here is the Admin, ask him about his TRUCK being Wraped up in Gill Nets, I think it took him 3 hours to get back into it.. no truth here.. If you like no places to fish stick with these guys... The Lawsuit you mention above and Critical Wintering Habitat for Turtles will Have every one shut down... No Beach No Boat No Ocean No Sound, No Diving, No recreation.. MPA's look it up.... 

I have other alternatives other then Fishing, Been a Computer Engineer for over 26 Years now, like I said I'm going back to doing that in a Truly free country outside of MERIKA... You can have it.. I'm Done..

JAM


----------



## speckhunter80 (Oct 3, 2011)

So now you admit there is a page on FB but it is CCA propaganda when it is a closed site run by commercial anglers and the NCFA. Admit it, you didn't even click on the link did you?


----------



## SEARCHIN SPECKS (Dec 24, 2011)

Do you realize that the Federal Government is well aware of interactions with sea turtles by recreational fishermen?
A 10 million commercial industry in North Carolina versus a recreational fishery worth billions.
A lot of recreational fishermen have money and influence.
They will never win this law suit.
The inshore commercial fisherman is a dying breed.

Recreational interactions are with hooks that can be removed or simply left to corrode if not easily removed.
Nets drown them.
I caught a few sea turtles in Florida when grouper fishing.
They all had hooks that were rusting out. 
Most looked like long line hooks.

The lawyers (Wheatly and whatever) that took on this case should be boycotted by all recreational fishermen in Carteret County or anywhere else for that matter!!!
Hit the lawyers in the pocket book!!! 

I do not think the turtles should even be on the endangered list anyway.
I see hundreds of them every year.


----------



## StillSearchin (Apr 9, 2007)

I read on some other boards where some of the folks spearheading the net ban agenda seem happy about this and actually suggest that a short (2-3 month) recreational fishing ban would be the best thing that could happen for their cause. 
This represents a truly deep hatred and makes one wonder if these groups portraying themselves as recreational fishing groups have not gone over to the dark side of the true hugger groups.
I wouldn't support any of them until it becomes more clear as to who they represent.


----------



## bctom (May 25, 2007)

I saw the writing on the wall many years ago living on Hatteras, heard many replies it will never happen to us, well people it has and will continue until there is no more fishing on Hatteras or the surf anywhere for that matter. I admit still have a few rods but never use them, why took the next step and now living very happily on an Island where people live to fish, cherish that right and conserve nature unlike there in the states, truely sad. If you ever on the north island of NZ, near Russell look me up you will not find me in the phone book but ask a constable. Live long and prosper....................

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fV3ZrT17RDg


----------



## JAM (Jul 22, 2002)

The First Link I did the second one with the 2 I could not find but I will not join a Closed Group to see what its about. I do have a Friend who like to keep his friends close and his enemy's closer.. So he showed me.. Run by RETIRED Commercial Fishermen mostly from FLORIDA which has a Full Net Ban. And yest here are 2 different pages... 

Little Story they NCFMY put an add in the Fishermans Post, I called every tackle Shop on the Island and we were gonna pull ALL our Advertising.. Guess what they will never have another add in that mag again.

The Lawsuit will be lost by and Recs will fall under Comm Rules... 
JAM


----------



## JAM (Jul 22, 2002)

Just like the REC could NEVER loose the Beach's huh, Hatteras is a wrap, where was all that Recreational Money to save that.. 

Cape Look Out bout to be lost (Will Be) See Above 

Padre Texas will be Lost See above ..

Recs have shot themselves in the Foot and will Loose this law suit. They got in Bed with the same People that Closed our Beaches and now they will Loose everything. Like I said in my First Post I am a Computer Engineer and I made 4x what I make now I do it for the Love.. But with EVERY THING BEING CLOSED... I'm going back to the Money.. JAM


----------



## fredsteve (Oct 16, 2013)

Yeah, I see you're still here. I'm with you, you should leave. Post haste.


----------



## Drumdum (Jan 6, 2003)

JAM said:


> Just like the REC could NEVER loose the Beach's huh, Hatteras is a wrap, where was all that Recreational Money to save that..
> 
> Cape Look Out bout to be lost (Will Be) See Above
> 
> ...


 All you have to do is backtrack the threads on this board from years ago,my comments about Rec groups getting into bed with enviro groups will be in many of them... The sheep are headed for the slaughter house.....


----------

