# do fish have nerves in their mouths?



## CVILLEFISHERR (Feb 28, 2008)

Hey guys I was just doing some research and looking at peoples opinions to the question to fish have feelings in their mouths? I say no because how can a smallmouth take down a crayfish without gettin hurt. Or how can a bass swallow a bluegill and not be bothered by the fins of the bluegill? What's everyone think?


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## odagled2004 (May 20, 2010)

I don't think they have nerves in their mouths so I doubt it hurts them that much. That is not to say that they do not feel pain, at least in my opinion.


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## zam (Jun 16, 2004)

They definately have feelings in their mouth or they wouldn't begin to fight when they are hooked, the reason they go crazy when they are hooked is because it hurts like hell and they want to desperately get away from whats causing that pain. I think Bass can eat things like crayfish because they have evoled to do it, their mouths have became tough, thats why you should also set the hook hard when they hit your lure


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## solid7 (Dec 31, 2010)

This is a question that has been around forever. It's a bit of a troll to even raise it - especially when it's obvious that it's going to be answered as nothing more than opinion, and biased, at that.

Even the "great" scientific minds are split on this issue. Fish obviously have a nervous system, therefore they obviously have the *ability* to feel some level of pain. What they lack, is a method to broadcast that pain, in a way that YOU can understand. What we lack, is the ability to quantify the pain that the fish might be feeling. And, it's not altogether clear if pain receptors are present from head to tail in all fish. All sorts of studies have been conducted to try to reach some sort of conclusion, and none really seem to. (nothing more than visual results) One needs to be quite diligient when reading studies, and ultimately, should also check the source that commissoned and/or performed the study, as a bias detector.

Flopping or fighting can be construed as a mere reflex reaction to an outside stimulus - i.e. - resistance. (you know, like when the fish wants to go left, and finds himself going right - pretty obvious that something's wrong)

In the end, the question matters very little. Ethical treatment dictates that you should treat the creature as if it DOES feel pain. If you are eating it, it matters little in the end, and if not, your conscience should be your guide. I personally don't believe in C&R fishing, but I don't impose that on the world....


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## catman (May 28, 2001)

Well Solid I guess you've answered the question and much better than I could. Thanks.


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## CVILLEFISHERR (Feb 28, 2008)

So solid your basically saying there's no true answer yet and people are gonna give biased opinions? I read some yes and some no last night and still can't decide. Like ya said them flippin out could just be a reaction to being yanked. I look at it was a reflex and they don't feel pain in there mouths. From my observation (I smash the barb and have been weightless with no bait or bobber) the fish never bleed unless gut hooked for obvious reasons. If the mark from where a fish nvr healed wed be seeing some pretty messed up fish.


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## solid7 (Dec 31, 2010)

CVILLEFISHERR said:


> So solid your basically saying there's no true answer yet and people are gonna give biased opinions?


Sure, there's a true answer - It just hasn't been found. So yes, that completely paves the way for biased answers, and unfounded opinions.

If you err on the side of caution, you will treat the animal ethically, and always assume there *is* pain involved. Isn't that what responsible people do, anyway? I think the worst thing to do is to assume that it DOESN'T feel pain. After all, if it doesn't feel pain, why the hell should you (or anyone) care how it's handled?

That's my biased opinion.


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## dena (Jun 20, 2010)

I think being mishandled, like flopping on the deck, or the sand, being held up by a lip for a photo, and other ways all do more damage than a single circle hook buried in the fat part of the lip.
That's just my opinion.


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## solid7 (Dec 31, 2010)

dena said:


> I think being mishandled, like flopping on the deck, or the sand, being held up by a lip for a photo, and other ways all do more damage than a single circle hook buried in the fat part of the lip.


The problem with that is, one could argue that there is a causal relationship... Without scenario A, you can't produce scenario B. (you can't mishandle it, if you don't catch it to begin with)

Still points to a case for proper handling of the fish, any way you slice it.


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## CVILLEFISHERR (Feb 28, 2008)

I handle em well and always revive big ones after a long fight.


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## fresh bunker (Jul 9, 2006)

I do agree with Solid that this is all about opinion. I think that its more of the animals instinct to get away than it cares about the pain. For example getting hooked into a fish, the fish tends to swim away (maybe to deeper water or structure). The force of the hook in its mouth and it trying to get away from you will cause the fish more pain in theory because its pulling away from you causing more pressure. Why doesn't it just swim towards you to feel less pain. Like most animals it tries to run away for its life which greater than pain. Death or pain. I think the animal instinct is greater than pain. Not only to think of fish but other animals. Some animals go a great way to eat even endangering themselves to get a meal. If they hungry they will eat it even if it will cause the animal harm. I also caught fish with 3 hooks already in them. Even if they feel pain because of the hooks they still try to eat. Fish Dont Care they just want to eat and survive like any other animal.


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## catman (May 28, 2001)

Here's a scientific study on rainbow trout to determine if they feel pain. Pretty interesting stuff. http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2006/09/15/1739175.htm


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## solid7 (Dec 31, 2010)

catman said:


> Here's a scientific study on rainbow trout to determine if they feel pain. Pretty interesting stuff. http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2006/09/15/1739175.htm


I tend to agree with that position, but you did quote only part 2. One also needs to follow the link to part 1 to get the questions that go into the hypothesis. 

The study in the article has not been properly referenced or credited. However, it bears a strong resemblance to a similar study that was published in Applied Animal Behavior Science, taking the same position.

I am trying to locate it, but not having luck - there was another study that did not reach the same conclusions, and I believe they used a different species. Not to take away from your post. Reading my post, you will find that I tend to base my thinking closer to the "fish feel pain" side than not - but I just try to provide a counter point. Regardless, I still believe firmly that it is incumbent upon us to treat wild animals with respect and dignity. Our livelihoods (and possibly, one day, our lives) could depend on their survival and thriving.


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## BerserkCaster (Oct 15, 2009)

I do think they can feel the pain when you hook the fishing hook threw their mouth. Why do you think they always dance like crazy when it happen? If you are afraid of hurting the fish, then fish with line and bait only with no hooks. They will not be hurt that way


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## Fresh/Saltmaniac (Apr 17, 2010)

zam said:


> They definately have feelings in their mouth or they wouldn't begin to fight when they are hooked, the reason they go crazy when they are hooked is because it hurts like hell and they want to desperately get away from whats causing that pain. I think Bass can eat things like crayfish because they have evoled to do it, their mouths have became tough, thats why you should also set the hook hard when they hit your lure


I agree that they can feel pain but they fight mostly because there is something trying to pull them out of the water, they would fight even if they couldn't feel anything. It also probably hurts the same whether they're getting hooked, bit by a crawfish, or ate a bluegill, how can they evolve to withstand one type of pain or the other? Pain is pain.


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## Tracker01 (Apr 4, 2011)

Here is another artical on the subject.











Anglers are finally off the hook: fish feel no pain







By Rajeev Syal

12:01AM GMT 09 Feb 2003





Anglers, rest easy. Fish cannot feel pain. Or so the largest study into piscine neurology has concluded.


An academic study comparing the nervous systems and responses of fish and mammals has found that their brains are not sufficiently developed to allow them to sense pain or fear. The findings represent a significant victory for anglers, whose sport has been under attack from animal rights activists buoyed by their success in securing a partial ban on foxhunting.


The study is the work of James D. Rose, a professor of zoology and physiology at the University of Wyoming, who has examined data on animals' responses to pain. His report, published in the American academic journal Reviews of Fisheries Science, concludes that awareness of pain depends on functions of regions of the cerebral cortex which fish do not possess.


Prof Rose, 60, said that previous studies which had indicated that fish can feel pain had confused "nociception" - responding to a threatening stimulus - with feeling pain.


"Pain is predicated on awareness," he said. "The key issue is the distinction between nociception and pain. A person who is anaesthetised in an operating theatre will still respond physically to an external stimulus, but he or she will not feel pain. Anyone who has seen a chicken with its head cut off will know that, while its body can respond to stimuli, it cannot be feeling pain."


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## sand flea (Oct 24, 1999)

Fish definitely have nerves in their mouths. The verdict is in on this one. The thing to understand here is that pain is a subjective experience. It's in the mind. The more advanced an animal is, the more awful the experience of pain because it involves fear and panic. Here's the best thing I've seen on the subject from Slate:

_...fish don't have the neurological capacity to experience the "psychological aspect" of pain. They react to pain, but they cannot mentally process "pain" when painful things happen to them. It's the human observer who puts these mental states on the fish, who sees them lying on the ground and saying "Thanks a lot for killing me." The fish-feel-pain side counters that fish may perceive pain in ways that we cannot comprehend._

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/green_room/2009/05/frying_nemo.single.html

Here's the way I look at it: it's not a pleasant experience for the animal. If you're a hunter or a fisherman, make your peace with that fact. Do a quick release, or, if you're keeping one for dinner get it on ice quickly or whack it in the head if it's a bigger one to stun it. There's something elemental about the experience of going out and getting your own meal. It connects you to the natural world. As the writer of the above article said 

_ I once landed a beautiful snook in a Florida bay, put it back in the water, and then, as the snook was recovering, watched it get chomped by a dolphin._

You are working on the same level as the dolphin. Accept the fact that we are predators, too, be humane, and move on.


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## zam (Jun 16, 2004)

Fresh/Saltmaniac said:


> I agree that they can feel pain but they fight mostly because there is something trying to pull them out of the water, they would fight even if they couldn't feel anything. It also probably hurts the same whether they're getting hooked, bit by a crawfish, or ate a bluegill, how can they evolve to withstand one type of pain or the other? Pain is pain.


The hook is penetrating into its body, when it eats a crawdad it doesn't break the skin, the fish just puts it in its mouth and crushes it, if the crawdads pinchers were able to be thrust through the fishes body like a hook is, it would hurt.
I don't think theres any doubt they feel pain, most fishermen don't want to believe it because it may take the fun out of it.


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## jvp (Mar 23, 2012)

I wrestle with this issue too. I feel guilty when I put on live bait.

I was raised hunting and fishing. Shot many things and some just for sport. I always had plenty of food.

Why do we fish in the first place? We can enjoy the great outdoors without taking away from it.

I don't have any natural instinct to kill something. I walk around bugs I see on the sidewalk. There are people who fish for food because they are poor, but I'm not one of them.

We've all seen people who have no regard for any life. The kind of people who throw puffer fish up on land just to die, because they think they might catch it again. I don't get why someone would blatantly destroy something for no reason. Not even animals do that.

I used to know a guy who would shoot things, just to get a closer look. What kind of person does that? A person who doesn't own a set of Binoculars.

Fishing should be enjoyable at every level, and either we let go of the guilt, minimize it to the point we can rectify it, or take up Lawn Bowling. I press down my barbs, get the fish to shore and set free asap and always hate it when they throat a hook.

Here's something else to think about. I went to the beach yesterday near sunrise. I LOVE it on the beach at sunrise. I was so busy, cutting bait, rigging lines and getting setup that I missed the sunrise and the reason I was out there in the first place. Was my goal to be on the beach and enjoy the experience or was I there only to catch fish? Fact is, fishing is a secondary activity for me and gives me something extra to do while at the beach and the next time I go, I'll enjoy the beach first and focus on catching fish second.


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## jvp (Mar 23, 2012)

zam said:


> The hook is penetrating into its body, when it eats a crawdad it doesn't break the skin, the fish just puts it in its mouth and crushes it, if the crawdads pinchers were able to be thrust through the fishes body like a hook is, it would hurt.
> I don't think theres any doubt they feel pain, most fishermen don't want to believe it because it may take the fun out of it.


That's right. If the pinchers were not an effective deterrent, then crawdads would have evolved with mittens.


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## CarolinaChuck (Jan 11, 2011)

Fle has pretty much nailed it, like Shakespeare;(Hamlet)

“What a piece of work is a man, how noble in reason, how
infinite in faculties, in form and moving how express and
admirable, in action how like an angel, in apprehension how like
a god! the beauty of the world, the paragon of animals—and yet,
to me, what is this quintessence of dust? Man delights not me—
nor woman neither, though by your smiling you seem to say so.”

The point being; "there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so." 

Make your peace with your own humanity, grab some fresh bait on your way to the beach and enjoy the day.

Chuck


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## Hop (Jun 29, 2009)

Why not just ask a fish?
http://askafish.com/


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## HStew (Jan 8, 2009)

Sharks get tooth aches and abscesses that make them mad enough to bite people. No studies have been done to know the percentage of those bitten are dentists. No conclusive studies have been done on Sheepshead as of this posting.


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## Drumdum (Jan 6, 2003)

solid7 said:


> This is a question that has been around forever. It's a bit of a troll to even raise it - especially when it's obvious that it's going to be answered as nothing more than opinion, and biased, at that.
> 
> Even the "great" scientific minds are split on this issue. Fish obviously have a nervous system, therefore they obviously have the *ability* to feel some level of pain. What they lack, is a method to broadcast that pain, in a way that YOU can understand. What we lack, is the ability to quantify the pain that the fish might be feeling. And, it's not altogether clear if pain receptors are present from head to tail in all fish. All sorts of studies have been conducted to try to reach some sort of conclusion, and none really seem to. (nothing more than visual results) One needs to be quite diligient when reading studies, and ultimately, should also check the source that commissoned and/or performed the study, as a bias detector.
> 
> ...





solid7 said:


> Sure, there's a true answer - It just hasn't been found. So yes, that completely paves the way for biased answers, and unfounded opinions.
> 
> If you err on the side of caution, you will treat the animal ethically, and always assume there *is* pain involved. Isn't that what responsible people do, anyway? I think the worst thing to do is to assume that it DOESN'T feel pain. After all, if it doesn't feel pain, why the hell should you (or anyone) care how it's handled?
> 
> That's my biased opinion.





solid7 said:


> The problem with that is, one could argue that there is a causal relationship... Without scenario A, you can't produce scenario B. (you can't mishandle it, if you don't catch it to begin with)
> 
> Still points to a case for proper handling of the fish, any way you slice it.





solid7 said:


> I tend to agree with that position, but you did quote only part 2. One also needs to follow the link to part 1 to get the questions that go into the hypothesis.
> 
> The study in the article has not been properly referenced or credited. However, it bears a strong resemblance to a similar study that was published in Applied Animal Behavior Science, taking the same position.
> 
> I am trying to locate it, but not having luck - there was another study that did not reach the same conclusions, and I believe they used a different species. Not to take away from your post. Reading my post, you will find that I tend to base my thinking closer to the "fish feel pain" side than not - but I just try to provide a counter point. Regardless, I still believe firmly that it is incumbent upon us to treat wild animals with respect and dignity. Our livelihoods (and possibly, one day, our lives) could depend on their survival and thriving.


 You know,Solid,I agree with ya that it's all conjecture,but *dammmmn,reading it all makes my head hurt!!*


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## solid7 (Dec 31, 2010)

Drumdum said:


> You know,Solid,I agree with ya that it's all conjecture,but *dammmmn,reading it all makes my head hurt!!*


So I was that kid in class that had wouldn't shut up. So what? 

You tryin' to give ReelinRod some competition for block quoting? (at least answer it all line by line, ya lazy slacker)


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## sand flea (Oct 24, 1999)

CarolinaChuck said:


> Fle has pretty much nailed it, like Shakespeare;(Hamlet)
> 
> “What a piece of work is a man, how noble in reason, how
> infinite in faculties, in form and moving how express and
> ...


This community never ceases to amaze me. The high and the low, all in one place.


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## Phaedrus (Mar 25, 2011)

After I post this, I am going to call my dad and let him know that I have officially used my philosophy minor for the first time since leaving college almost 20 years ago. This will probably be the first and last time that the name Ludwig Wittgenstein will be on a fishing board. 

This is Wittgenstein's beetle in a box argument. We each have a beetle in our own box that no-one else can see. We can give it the name of "pain" but none of us can really know what the other person (or being) is really "feeling".

Thanks dad. Money very well spent


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## Alexy (Nov 1, 2010)

I have a freezer full of fish and not one has complained. 
Not sure if they feel pain or not, and honestly I don't think it will matter one way or not.


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## CarolinaChuck (Jan 11, 2011)

Phaedrus,

You know better- that is pirvate and we cannot talk about it....


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## solid7 (Dec 31, 2010)

Phaedrus said:


> This is Wittgenstein's beetle in a box argument. We each have a beetle in our own box that no-one else can see. We can give it the name of "pain" but none of us can really know what the other person (or being) is really "feeling".
> 
> Thanks dad. Money very well spent



Who would you prefer to handle the box - Nietzsche or Shoepenhauer?

I think you should repay your father for the unappreciated education he provided you.


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## Phaedrus (Mar 25, 2011)

A truly profound question posited from the state that gave us Sonny Crocket, Tubbs and the Sham-Wow guy.


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## solid7 (Dec 31, 2010)

Phaedrus said:


> A truly profound question posited from the state that gave us Sonny Crocket, Tubbs and the Sham-Wow guy.


Hey, I'm a transplant. (pictures of a rich white playboy, living in a tropical paradise, flash through your mind)


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## jvp (Mar 23, 2012)

Phaedrus said:


> A truly profound question posited from the state that gave us Sonny Crocket, Tubbs and the Sham-Wow guy.


What's profound is that all three are just average Joe's here. What the rest of the US calls over the top, we call the neighbors.


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## Manlystanley (Sep 22, 2010)

Hop said:


> Why not just ask a fish?
> http://askafish.com/





HStew said:


> Sharks get tooth aches and abscesses that make them mad enough to bite people. No studies have been done to know the percentage of those bitten are dentists. No conclusive studies have been done on Sheepshead as of this posting.



Part of the fun of this site is everyone's humor. Thanks for the laughs. By the way, the fish didn't know........

Best Regards,
Stan


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## Hudak (Sep 10, 2007)

Dernit, I asked. Pretty conclusive. End of conversation. :beer:


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## NC KingFisher (Nov 20, 2011)

M uncle owns a fish farm and i asked all the bioligist and they said yes. The thing about fish eating stuff is they have evolved to do it


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## Manlystanley (Sep 22, 2010)

thekingfeeder said:


> Dernit, I asked. Pretty conclusive. End of conversation. :beer:



Wow, a fish that changes it's mind. When I asked, half his body was in the yes, half was in the no. This must be a really tough question.....



Best Regards,
Stan


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## Garboman (Jul 22, 2010)

When Tubbs said to Sonny Crockett......"Look lets get to a pay phone so I can call into the office, this is important!!"

Sonny reaches into his Ferrari and whips out the 2 feet long "Brick" "Cell Phone" I got you covered Tubbs.........its a touch tone too!



Of course fish have nerves in their mouth............... all you got to do is bust him on on a hook set and believe me that fish wakes up every time....


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## viper2788 (May 1, 2012)

I think they all do to some degree... but im sure it differs from fish to fish. For instance, when you hook a largemouth bass, its got a bony mouth and usually you just hook through a thin flap of skin(if you would call it that), and they dont seem too frantic when I unhook em. However, catfish have a meatier mouth and I can tell from they way they bite down when unhooking them that they feel more pain. Was thinking about this thread yesterday as I was removing a hook from a 24in cat


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## Jrogers08 (May 9, 2012)

zam said:


> They definately have feelings in their mouth or they wouldn't begin to fight when they are hooked, the reason they go crazy when they are hooked is because it hurts like hell and they want to desperately get away from whats causing that pain. I think Bass can eat things like crayfish because they have evoled to do it, their mouths have became tough, thats why you should also set the hook hard when they hit your lure


I don't feel that it's so much as that they are trying to get away from the pain as much as it is they feel the pressure of something against them and it is spooking them, thus causing them to fight.


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