# Here's the ORV plan of the next 3 years or more



## Newsjeff (Jul 22, 2004)

I haven't read it yet.

Just posting the link. 

http://islandfreepress.org/2008Archives/04.16.2008-ConsentDecree.pdf

***Seems the NPS has until December 31, 2010 to come up with an ORV managment plan.


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## Flipper (May 6, 2006)

Okay, thanks. Judge Boyle has to approve it first, but you know that very, very few cases are ever heard on the merits; maybe 5-8 percent. They almost always settle, so this is no surprise. I'll tell you what I think as soon as I read it.


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## JeepMike (Feb 4, 2008)

I read that, but don't really know what the hell it all meant. I guess they are going to put up closures all over the place and we just have to live with that? Maybe someone with a legal mind can help decipher that craziness.


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## Cdog (Mar 18, 2002)

JeepMike said:


> I read that, but don't really know what the hell it all meant. I guess they are going to put up closures all over the place and we just have to live with that? Maybe someone with a legal mind can help decipher that craziness.


Mike, not a leagal mind but the jist of what I read is enjoy the beach you had today because its gonna get alot smaller in the future.

The night time closure really gets me.


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## JeepMike (Feb 4, 2008)

Night time closure?!? For turtles I presume? Or the whole danged beach? Looks like I should start shoppin for a kayak insteada that 525 eh? What a sad day...


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## Newsjeff (Jul 22, 2004)

Night driving:



> 24. Night Driving: To increase the chances of successful
> turtle nesting, NPS shall close all potential sea turtle nesting
> habitat (ocean intertidal zone, ocean backshore, and dunes) to
> nonessential ORV use from 10 p.m. until 6 a.m. from May 1 to
> ...


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## Newsjeff (Jul 22, 2004)

Buffers:



> 1) Species Breeding Behavior/Nest
> Buffer (m)
> 
> 2) Unfledged Chick Buffer (m)
> ...


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## Flipper (May 6, 2006)

Better than the prelim injunction. 

Problem: It does not address the number of vehicles on the beach among other issues that the judge pointed out. He's not gonna like that.

Newsjeff pointed out the relevant portions pertaining to night driving. I think most of you guys would be able to get the night driving permit without much difficulty. I wouldn't worry about that.

Now this part concerns me:

"11. The ORV closure area shall extend for 1000 m on each side of a line drawn through the nest site and perpendicular to the long axis of the beach. The resulting closure area shall extend from the ocean side low water line to the bayshore low water line or the dune line if no bayshore habitat exists. Vehicles may be allowed to pass through portions of the protected
area, where the protected area is considered by NPS natural resource management staff to be inaccessible to piping plover chicks because of steep topography, dense vegetation, or other naturally occurring obstacles. All of the ocean beach at Cape Point, South Beach, and North Ocracoke and all of the bayshore and ocean beach at Bodie Island Spit and Ocracoke South Point will be considered accessible to piping plover chicks in these areas."

I'm not familiar with your access to the point, but this may eliminate it all together if there is a nest site in the area. 

The wildlife clearly prevail in the decree, but again that should be no surprise. We'll see what the judge says.


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## Flipper (May 6, 2006)

Sorry. I couldn't edit a mistake in my post above. Night driving will be significantly restricted if the consent decree is approved as is.


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## Cdog (Mar 18, 2002)

Flipper said:


> Sorry. I couldn't edit a mistake in my post above. Night driving will be significantly restricted if the consent decree is approved as is.


No chit. I dont have a law degree and I figured that out...


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## Flipper (May 6, 2006)

Cdog said:


> No chit. I dont have a law degree and I figured that out...


Yeah, thanks, Cdog. I do have a law degree and I am an attorney. I was a little hasty reading thru the Consent.


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## Cdog (Mar 18, 2002)

Flipper said:


> Yeah, thanks, Cdog. I do have a law degree and I am an attorney. I was a little hasty reading thru the Consent.


Sorry, guess my nerves are a lil short. Thanks for the input.


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## Flipper (May 6, 2006)

No problem, Cdog. Hope I didn't sound terse. I was just giving my credentials. BTW, I've always enjoyed your reports.

This whole thing was bad news from the get-go. The thing is, what many folks didn't and still don't understand, is that we don't have a leg to stand on. We are legally screwed.


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## Flipper (May 6, 2006)

Let me just state for the record that there are certain individuals that post here who think that they know the law, that such and such is against the law and that it violates various Acts and so forth . . . blah, blah, blah. It's nonsense. Liebesman is one of the best enviro lawyers in the country. He's got about 30 years or so experience as an environmental lawyer, not to mention prior legal experience. Let me assure everyone that any potential legal avenues will be examined by competent counsel. I understand your frustration, but please leave the legal aspects to the attorneys.


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## EverSoDull (Nov 13, 2007)

Flipper said:


> No problem, Cdog. Hope I didn't sound terse. I was just giving my credentials. BTW, I've always enjoyed your reports.
> 
> This whole thing was bad news from the get-go. The thing is, what many folks didn't and still don't understand, is that we don't have a leg to stand on. We are legally screwed.


Arggg! Peg legs will do!

We need a good Capt'n to lead us....

Just one Capt'n

Aye, Im ready to swab and obay.....



:beer:


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## Flipper (May 6, 2006)

EverSoDull said:


> Arggg! Peg legs will do!
> 
> We need a good Capt'n to lead us....
> 
> ...


We already have excellent leadership/representation. Just the intervenors are represented by two law firms, a huge DC firm and a local firm. It's not uncommon for a non-local firm to corroborate with a local firm. These are very good attorneys who are obligated to aggressively pursue our interests, but thanks for the vote of confidence.


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## Flipper (May 6, 2006)

Let me also add that the much-touted bird/indoor environmental scientist is just that, a scientist, not a lawyer.


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## Flipper (May 6, 2006)

Wow. I've been waiting for hours expecting to be hammered with legal questions since confiding that I am an attorney. I was prepared to answer whatever I could on the eve of the consent degree. My answers would have been for free, after all. I may start charging now.


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## Flipper (May 6, 2006)

Anyway, signing off. . . .


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## Drumdum (Jan 6, 2003)

I'm more than uneasy about this whole mess,brought upon us by special intrest groups riegning over NPS,USFWL,and DOI.. These groups are not just out to save wildlife,but to actually take away all previleges we as fishermen and hunters have.. Any ideas on how to counter,aside from just writing letters that become "canned responces"?? Any way to get any of "Our Science" (aka Lee Walton)heard? 

You said what you said correctly,aside from the little twist with the night time thing..  
You have said that the OBPA lawyer did the best in this "handcuffed situation" he could do,and I agree given the circumstances.


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## Shooter (Nov 14, 2004)

This all reminds me of good ol Judge Roy Bean,,, Boy, your gonna get a fair trial then a proper hangen.

And on top of all of the bend over,,,, the Beatch Slap is the Goverment *us* has to pay the bird huggen lawyers and the AutoBAN just got $20. Mil


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## Capt Kurt (Jan 5, 2008)

*Incredible Hypocrisy*

""25. Between September 16 and November 15, NPS may issue
night driving permits for authorized nonessential driving between
the hours of 10 p.m. and 6 a.m. The permit application process
shall have an educational component, and the permit shall contain
restrictions on light use""


What a Crock !!!! #25 above allows the Audobon Society, and any other do-gooder to drive on the beach between 9/16 and 11/15 "for educational uses"....circumventing the essence of their battle....I guess THEY want to be able to use ORV's on the beach, but they don't want US to. WHAT HYPOCRITES !!!!!!

The answer will be to take a kid fishing.....that's educational right ???


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## JeepMike (Feb 4, 2008)

This stuff makes my head hurt... We will figure out a way to fish out there. This will be like localized prohibition, and I'm ready to bootleg...


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## dafishguy (Apr 13, 2006)

*Night driving?*

I did not see anything that addressed being on the beach before the 10pm driving cut off and staying until or after the 6am driving allowed time. That may be the only alternative for the late night fishermen.Maybe I missed it as this kind of legal speak is very much a struggle to read and understand, much less keep focused on for an average Joe like me. I read a lot of novels to relax, but hate legal documents.


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## Fishbreath (Nov 11, 2004)

Capt Kurt said:


> ""25. Between September 16 and November 15, NPS may issue
> night driving permits for authorized nonessential driving between
> the hours of 10 p.m. and 6 a.m. The permit application process
> shall have an educational component, and the permit shall contain
> ...


Maybe we become birdwatchers. Carry binoculars AND a fishing rod....


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## gtodave (Mar 19, 2008)

Flipper said:


> Let me just state for the record that there are certain individuals that post here who think that they know the law, that such and such is against the law and that it violates various Acts and so forth . . . blah, blah, blah. It's nonsense. Liebesman is one of the best enviro lawyers in the country. He's got about 30 years or so experience as an environmental lawyer, not to mention prior legal experience. Let me assure everyone that any potential legal avenues will be examined by competent counsel. I understand your frustration, but please leave the legal aspects to the attorneys.


Can't blame people for trying to come up with new ideas to try and beat this. I do wish that we were a little more organized though. Liebesman may be a damn good lawyer, but keeping the people and other interested parties out of the decision making process is not right, and that HAS to be a way to get around his legal cock-blocking. If we had a legal team of our own to get us around that, then we could show why their "facts" about the data that is out there is wrong, plus show them a couple of other examples (AI for instance). It just seems like there would be SOMEONE in NC who would take it upon themselves to hire a lawyer, and get some data behind him to prepare for a battle.


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## gtodave (Mar 19, 2008)

what burns me up about the new regs is that not only do we have outrageous buffer zones (that are supposed to move every day with the birds, since someone will be there to watch the birds every day), but that those huge buffer zones will EXPAND with every violation. There is something inherintly wrong with that. I also hate how we now have to reimburse the NAS for their legal fees....seems like if it was a good cause for them to case, then it should be money well spent for them. 

I guarantee Mr Heller in the Heller v. DC case (DC handgun case) will not see ONE RED CENT if he wins at the supreme court, even though he is fighting for his right that is already established. It just burns my ass to see the injustices that play out every day.


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## Brooksobx (Feb 10, 2008)

The Defenders of Wildlife and Audubon got most of the restrictions in place that they wanted, with all other parties reluctantly agreeing. The real problem with this agreement as I read it is, if the closed areas are violated by ORV's, all bets are off and everything gets closed. If this is the case, don't you think for 1 SECOND the Defenders of Wildlife & Audubon don't already have a plan for that violation to take place. All they have done is gone from the 1 Step closure (Judge closes beaches), to the 2 Step closure (Violate agreed restrictions, close beaches). They will manufacture evidence to support their cause. I think they've done it before, I think they'll do it again!!! 

Plan A....They originally agreed to participate in the Reg-Neg process, but after seeing things weren't going their way, they basically said "screw this", let's go to plan B.

Plan B.... Take it to court and let 1 person make the decision, this way they have a much better chance of getting what they want and money for legal fees isn't a factor because they have all they need. Besides, it's almost a sure thing that this Liberal Republican Judge will rule their way. But wait, something doesn't seem so safe any more. Could they sense The Republican side of his brain coming out and saying," Can I really trade a billion dollar a year industry for 5 birds that really belong in Nova Scotia and are probably going to end up as part of the food chain any way, regardless of any restrictions I might make? Hmmm 

Plan C....Back to the nogotiation table, but this time they've dumped all the special interest groups that have spent thousands of dollars and man-hours to have some input on this decision. "Let's get the OBXers to agree to something with a loop hole in it and then we've got em'. See ya' later at the loop hole."

Of coarse, this is just my opinion, 
I could be wrong.


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## EverSoDull (Nov 13, 2007)

gtodave said:


> Can't blame people for trying to come up with new ideas to try and beat this. I do wish that we were a little more organized though. Liebesman may be a damn good lawyer, but keeping the people and other interested parties out of the decision making process is not right, and that HAS to be a way to get around his legal cock-blocking. If we had a legal team of our own to get us around that, then we could show why their "facts" about the data that is out there is wrong, plus show them a couple of other examples (AI for instance). It just seems like there would be SOMEONE in NC who would take it upon themselves to hire a lawyer, and get some data behind him to prepare for a battle.



Agreed!

We need to take a lesson from the gun owners…. What or where is our NRA?
:fishing:


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## big joe (Nov 18, 2007)

My wife and I were discussing this over dinner this past Saturday. She suggested organizing like Ducks Unlimited has. That way no one can differ over the protection of the wildlife and our privledges as hunters and fisherman. The kicker in this whole mess is that we as the outdoorsman are the greatest conservationists. 

I guess we need to take it to the next step.


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## kevinva (Nov 30, 2007)

I would like to see the maps they are referencing in Exhibit 1


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## notso (Jul 18, 2005)

kevinva said:


> I would like to see the maps they are referencing in Exhibit 1


I think these are the ones...

http://islandfreepress.org/2008Archives/04.16.2008-ConsentDecreeMaps.pdf


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## Capt Kurt (Jan 5, 2008)

I think Shakespear said it best ......" Kill all the lawyers......" (sorry Flipper ....maybe you could go to Med School .....)


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## MacPE6 (Feb 28, 2006)

I truly love just being in Hatteras and evem more so I love fishing up there but with a 5 hour drive and $4.10/gal fuel cost is't hard to come up there to enjoy a chille and talk about what the fishing use to be like. 

I know that if I see a DOW, Audobon Society, or SELC sticker on a car that needs help I will not evern blink to help them. Yep I'm an a-hole like that. 

I also plan to boycott any NPS anything run, managed by or controld by any part, brach or section of NPS. If they can't support us I can't suppor them.

My new moto:
"Boycott SELC, DOW, Audobon Society anything and National Parks Service anything!"


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## for access (Jul 18, 2005)

*I always forget*



Flipper said:


> Wow. I've been waiting for hours expecting to be hammered with legal questions since confiding that I am an attorney. I was prepared to answer whatever I could on the eve of the consent degree. My answers would have been for free, after all. I may start charging now.


Dismissed "with prejudice"--mean can come back or not?


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## Flipper (May 6, 2006)

Drumdum said:


> Any ideas on how to counter,aside from just writing letters that become "canned responces"??


For right now, all we can do is wait for the judge's ruling. Keep writing to Congress.



Drumdum said:


> Any way to get any of "Our Science" (aka Lee Walton)heard?


I don't recall right off, but was the Lee Walton data you're referring to included in the intervenors' answer to the motion for the preliminary injunction? Other than that, it would probably have to wait until the case is heard on the merits, if that ever happens.


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## Flipper (May 6, 2006)

for access said:


> Dismissed "with prejudice"--mean can come back or not?


Cannot come back.


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## Flipper (May 6, 2006)

gtodave said:


> Can't blame people for trying to come up with new ideas to try and beat this.


I understand and can sympathize.


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## NTKG (Aug 16, 2003)

so ive got a tahoe, bunch of surf gear, a rack etc all for sale. this is the biggest bunch of horse sh*t i have ever seen. why they hell did i not move back to DC when I graduated???? TO BE CLOSER TO THE BEACH!!!!!!!!!! where is the personell to implement all this??? oh thats right they don't have it, so basically they're gonna say its violated before day 1 is over. I don't know why America has become has become the beauty queen turned crack wh*re. Its like we have to kill everything we stood for.

I'm thankful to all you guys down south, Kenny, Jody, Rob etc, and I am sorry this is turning into this....

I have a very bad feeling about this and I'm not quite sure what there is that I can do....


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## JeepMike (Feb 4, 2008)

Well if we can find anything positive about this.... No matter what happens, the beach isn't going to pick up and leave! Hopefully cooler heads will prevail and something will be done that truly is fair and equal. Until then I will do as much as I can down here, adjusting and becoming part of the local community, writing congress, and whatever else just like so many others from the local area, all over NC, and even all over the country!

Today I even walked by a new bird enclosure and spit on it! Well not really. All I know, the fish and the beach won't pick up and leave overnight. SELC/Audobahn have seemingly won this battle, but we still have the war to fight! We can't lose hope, gotta stay the course and still be around when the smoke settles... that to me is what the American dream is all about...


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## Newsjeff (Jul 22, 2004)

Neil, I hear ya, brother.

Here's what I'm going to keep doin'.

I'll keep on payin' my OBPA and NCBBA dues. Those fellas got the short end of the stick, no matter what anyone says. They have all my respect. Enough cannot be said of the time and effort they put in to keep our beaches open.

I'll keep writing letters to the NPS, DOI, congress, sentate and whoever will listen. I'll keep watching the boards and payin' attention to what's happenin' on the Islands. The same as I've have done since I was attending ECU in the early 1990s.

But ya know what I won't do? I won't stop going to Hatteras. I won't stop fishin' the Point or the Inlets any chance I get. Yeah, I might not be able to fish them when I want ... but I won't stop when I can.

I enjoy fishing down there waaay too much. I don't want my friends to who live and work down there to suffer any more than they have to.

And I don't want those I disagree with to win the war.

Yes, they might have won the battle.

But the war ain't over.


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## NTKG (Aug 16, 2003)

"Two of the gravest general dangers to survival are the desire for comfort and a passive outlook."
-U.S. Army Ranger Handbook


don't get me wrong. The worst thing to do is give up or become complacent in any conflict. And we are at war and it ias about survival.... Its survival of the familes that live down on the island, its survival of my way of life, its survival of the ideals and memories I want my children in the future to have... However I think that alot of people focused on something that was a falsehood. With what was going on, they never needed or wanted our input. People feel betrayed but they shouldn't "fisherman and orv's" were not ever part of the equation. 

In all honesty, yes it could be alot worse....

JeepMike, I assume your older and more educated than myself, I stopped believing in the govt or special interest groups "doing the right thing" a long time ago.... If you want something, you have to take it, bc they're not going to give it to you.

my earlier post was first just the initial rage of how bogus our govt and this pile of dogsh*t they're calling a settlement are and that I am in need to a course of action to follow in a united front.

(as a sidenote, how the hell can anyone be a liberal??? doesn't this kind of just show you how ridiculous govt is? how can anyone think that we need MORE govt in our lives? perfect example of the left. Make and institute a plan which is destined to fail even on paper and act shocked and surprised when it doesnt work out and play the innocent card. this will pan out perfectly as an example of fine eco wacky liberal politics, it already is. Agree to neg-reg, don't like the way its going so go back on your word and do this and that. Use the word settle even though it was only one side giving anything up, accidentally use the word endangered, etc.... Make an elaborate plan whose success is dictated by resources we don't and can't have. and of course ask the citizens to pay all court and atty's fees when its all over.....)


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## NTKG (Aug 16, 2003)

oh i forgot:--|


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## Mark Lindsey (Jun 28, 2005)

Well one things for sure, since these tree hugging idiots stepped up to the plate they sure have taken the heat off PETA.


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## gtodave (Mar 19, 2008)

I'll share this info for whoever wants it. It pertains to the Piping Plover populations, specifically on Assateague Island (where they have complete beach closures for 7 months of the year).

Warning: MAKE SURE YOU LOOK AT ALL THE DATA! Most of the tables and "facts" in the text are split up between the late 80's-'95, and '95-presentish. They do this because Plover populations peaked in the early 90's, and have tanked since then. They don't know why, but we can all be sure that is was not ORV's (or "SUV's" as the enviro's like to use for the negative connotation).

I don't know when AI stopped allowing beach access....I THINK it was 1993, but it could have been 1985. I can't tell from skimming the articles

Main page: http://www.fws.gov/northeast/pipingplover/index.html

They admit that NC is on the outer limits of the birds breeding grounds: "The piping plover breeds on coastal beaches from Newfoundland and southeastern Quebec to North Carolina". Population zones fluctuate with MANY different inputs (weather, tides, population flux's, etc), and the areas on the outer edges of the zones are affected first.

Here's a link to The Recovery Plan for Piping Plovers. It includes life history and Ecology of the bird, and all of the Tables and Appendices associated with populations by states: http://www.fws.gov/northeast/pipingplover/recplan/index.html

Threats as they describe them. I'm sure someone with more time could pick some of these apart (for instance, they reference a loss of birds at a Delaware site from 8 birds to 0 between '79 and '88, which is NOT scientifically significant): 
http://www.fws.gov/northeast/pipingplover/recplan/threats.html


'86-'95 breeding pairs data: http://www.fws.gov/northeast/pipingplover/recplan/status.html#abundance

For some reason I can't find the '95-present data now, but VDGIF has a good table here:

http://www.dgif.state.va.us/wildlife/piping_plovers.html











Anyways, there's a lot of info there. If someone has the time and wherewithall to put some of this together to put in front of the judge, then great. The data speaks for itself....closing AI from March to September for these birds has done nothing for their populations. This would translate well to OBX.


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