# bent or straight



## william1 (Nov 30, 2003)

Ive been watching a lot of u tube clips and see there is a difference in the position of the right arm and elbow some throw bent some straight. I can seethe straight elbow gives you a wider arc,faster sinker speed but IMHO less power in the push ans pull. Bent right elbow shorter arc ,faster turn more powerful push pull. I like constructive criticism fire away!


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## Tacpayne (Dec 20, 2008)

Most try to lock their elbow with a slight bend, say 5-10 degrees. THe problem a lot of people have is when they turn they drop their right arm and bend thier elbow way down. THis throws off everthing, Ask me how I know


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## Hudak (Sep 10, 2007)

Technically, from what I understand, you want the arm straight to get the biggest arc possible. Most people will teach this. What you theoretically may gain from the "push" of a bent arm is lost from the smaller arch. Think about an old steering wheel from a car or truck with no power steering. The wider the circle, the easier it is to turn the wheels, it holds true with trying to get a sinker around as well.

Now saying that, when you see some of the guys that hit big numbers throw, they are trying to maintain 90%~ of the form giving it 100% of their power. It has been told to me that when you are ready to *hit it* you want to keep as much of the proper form as possible. In a perfect lab condition, the arm will be straight. In real life situations, it is slightly bent, still trying to keep it straight.

Of course all of this may be my diluted memory of what I was told. 

Robert


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## Yeah nah (Jun 14, 2007)

I tried for a long time to keep my right arm dead straight while casting and gave up lol.
Get the lead swinging out and past the rod tip turn and guide the rod around the the turn building speed as you go then hit it as hard as you can.
As one of the Aussie casters says JFHI =just ------- hit it.


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## eric (Oct 24, 2007)

if that arm isnt bent. no way in hell you can hit it hard.
now keeping the left straight. different story.


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

Bent--- but only slightly.

The only reason to lock the following elbow is as a practice tool for working on a more effective pull-- to isolate and work on puilling.

In actual casting you do need to have some bend in the following elbow-- for several reasons-- to keep the move athletic and not entirely rigid, and to allow for an extension (push) at the end, to add a fast finish.

Keeping the arm straight and rigid will hamper ultimate speed and make the cast a "one armed" mechanical event. 

That being said the goal is to maintain a wide arc-- think of keeping the rod as far away from your head as possible-- while still allowing for some flexibility and push at the end. 

It's a trade off, but all the top casters have some degree of bend in the following elbow as they come around-- some more than others-- it boils down to strength, speed, and agility. The earleir you try to power up-- the more likely you won't be able to hold a wide arc and the following elbow will more likely have a bigger bend in it as compensation for not being able to hold the arc-- holding off on the hit makes it easier to maintain as wide as arc as possible.

As Eric said-- it's more important to keep the leading elbow/arm straight as long as possible-- trying to keep both arms out straight just won't work for most people.

Hopefully my use of the terms "leading and "following" arm/elbow are clear. For the right hander the left arm "leads" the way with the right following. 

I prefer the terms leading and following as more of a universal language-- it doesn't matter if your left or right handed-- as a left hander it helps to avoid confusion and prevents the necessity to "convert" right handed "speak" to left handed translations. Sorry-- just needed to make that clear.


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## william1 (Nov 30, 2003)

*way bent*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTrpbOjNnXY I think its important to look at Roger he has a lot to say in a short time notice his right arm


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

william1 said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTrpbOjNnXY I think its important to look at Roger he has a lot to say in a short time notice his right arm



I've watched that bit many times.

I'd like to see him actually casting, rather than demonstrating with the rod butt, which doesn't put the forces on the arm like those that actually occur during a full blown cast.

I think if you tried to do a full power cast with both arms fully extended from the start, you would simply find that you can't withstand the forces as they develop during the cast-- it's like trying to hold a heavy dumbell with your arm straight out in front of you, the heavier the weight the more you need to get "under" it with your shoulder to support the weight. 

If you come in with the elbow fully bent and the hand right next to the shoulder--you can support a lot of weight (force), but in casting you lose too much arc-- so again, it comes down to a trade off.

Even if you could cast with both arms extended straight out-- I think the cast would become too mechanical and less athletic-- we're not robots and can benefit from the natural elasticity in our shoulders/arms. If you extended the arm straight out so that it acts like a fulcrum-- you are really back to doing a one-armed cast with the pulling hand-- you need that bit of bend to achieve some punch "push" as well-- even tho the large core muscles legs, abdomen, shoulders, etc. do the bulk of the work-- the last bit of speed is achieved with a push/pull combination.


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## Danman (Dec 13, 2007)

Great input guys! Mark..I learned alot from your reply on this subject. I always had trouble trying to keep my right arm straight....like you said we're not robots:fishing:


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## william1 (Nov 30, 2003)

*bent*

I agree with you Mark to a point , even you didnt directly say it IMHO one of the most important stages of any casting is the rotary component which comes into play before the hands do, do you agree? I think elbow bent or straight take your choice rotation is more important.


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## william1 (Nov 30, 2003)

*bent*

I think if you tried to do a full power cast with both arms fully extended from the start, you would simply find that you can't withstand the forces as they develop during the cast-- it's like trying to hold a heavy dumbell with your arm straight out in front of you, the heavier the weight the more you need to get "under" it with your shoulder to support the weight ( I believe roger has his right arm bent )


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## andrew gormley (Oct 18, 2009)

what i find is that with the high swing type casts you can get away with a bent right arm to an extent , and the flatter type casts demand a straighter right arm .


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## william1 (Nov 30, 2003)

*bent*

I'd like to see him actually casting, rather than demonstrating with the rod butt, which doesn't put the forces on the arm like those that actually occur during a full blown cast.

MARK I THE CLIP I posted I believe Roger does have his right arm bent?


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## Yeah nah (Jun 14, 2007)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJ9xnU_A2LM

Roger is the last caster on the clip.
Its a pretty good vid as it shows a variety of casters and an interview with big Danny


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

andrew gormley said:


> what i find is that with the high swing type casts you can get away with a bent right arm to an extent , and the flatter type casts demand a straighter right arm .


I agree that this tends to hold true-- but even casters with similar styles have different approaches-- check the Aussies-- Lee and Jeremy seem to bring the right elbow/arm in very close to the body on the in swing-- Scott Selby not quite so much.

In that clip Roger does have some bend in his arm during the cast, but appears to maintain it all the way thru the cast, as opposed to his demonstration video--here he appears to be letting the shoulder do more of the punching forward of the rod.

Lots of ways to get it done !!


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## Yeah nah (Jun 14, 2007)

I had the pleasure of casting with Jeremy when I was last in oz and what dosent come out in the vids is just how fast he really is and just how much effort hes putting into each cast .

My cast is still a evolving thing and I have been given a lot of very helpful tips from the aussies. Was able to hit 238 mtrs (780 ft ) the other week with a very bent right arm


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## andrew gormley (Oct 18, 2009)

the way each individual puts there power in will always be different from person to person , take on board what you see but only you know what feels right when you tee up the lead to hit it .


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## Hudak (Sep 10, 2007)

eric said:


> if that arm isnt bent. no way in hell you can hit it hard.
> now keeping the left straight. different story.


I don't know, I have had a few north of 750 over the last couple of weeks including a 771' this morning keeping my arm as straight as I possibly can allowing my rotational force to help "push". To each his own I guess.

One thing I have heard mentioned on this thread that can't be overlooked is (paraphrasing) if the arm is straight, the force of the cast will overpower the caster. ABSOLUTELY TRUE! That is why it is so important to come in slow and out fast. If you find yourself being over powered or throwing over your shoulder, you are coming in to fast and your body can't handle the force your rod is applying against you. Slow down and allow your rod to come around the complete arc and hit it at the end. That is the one best thing I have done to help increase my distance. I was chronically coming in to fast and by the time I was supposed to hit it, I wasn't strong enough to have any power in reserve to make the hit. Basically I couldn't hit it at all. I was too weak. Slowing down, to where I could keep my arm as straight as possible and then using the reserve power to hit it has increased my distance this year by about 60-80' if you go by PB's. 

The concept of slow in/fast out is fluid though. The stronger you are, the faster slow is and the faster fast is. It is all about how you as a caster can handle the load you are putting on the rod. If you are strong enough to keep up with the load and still have reserve to hit it, you will not buckle under the load or throw over your shoulder. Since it is easier to immediately change your cast then it is to change your strength, that is where slowing down comes in.

Since I have slowed my cast down this year and kept my arm as straight as my body will allow, my numbers have jumped. Apparently I am the only one that has found this true. Luckily, I found it to be true with me and that is all that matters to my cast. 

Robert


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## Hudak (Sep 10, 2007)

Yeah nah said:


> I had the pleasure of casting with Jeremy when I was last in oz and what dosent come out in the vids is just how fast he really is and just how much effort hes putting into each cast .
> 
> My cast is still a evolving thing and I have been given a lot of very helpful tips from the aussies. Was able to hit 238 mtrs (780 ft ) the other week with a very bent right arm


That is the beautifully crazy thing about this sport.... Ask 10 top casters how they are able to cast over 800' and you are liable to get 12 different answers and techniques. Like others are saying and I learned how to do, listen to good information, chew it, and then figure what works for your individual cast. If we all used the same technique then we would be robots and the progress in distances we see overall wouldn't be there... :beer: Cheers to those who find their personal technique and own it!

Robert


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## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

andrew gormley said:


> what i find is that with the high swing type casts you can get away with a bent right arm to an extent , and the flatter type casts demand a straighter right arm .


Andrew, great to see you on P&S!!!

Welcome.

Tommy


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## Tommy (Jan 24, 2001)

thekingfeeder said:


> I don't know, I have had a few north of 750 over the last couple of weeks including a 771' this morning keeping my arm as straight as I possibly can allowing my rotational force to help "push". To each his own I guess.
> 
> One thing I have heard mentioned on this thread that can't be overlooked is (paraphrasing) if the arm is straight, the force of the cast will overpower the caster. ABSOLUTELY TRUE! That is why it is so important to come in slow and out fast. If you find yourself being over powered or throwing over your shoulder, you are coming in to fast and your body can't handle the force your rod is applying against you. Slow down and allow your rod to come around the complete arc and hit it at the end. That is the one best thing I have done to help increase my distance. I was chronically coming in to fast and by the time I was supposed to hit it, I wasn't strong enough to have any power in reserve to make the hit. Basically I couldn't hit it at all. I was too weak. Slowing down, to where I could keep my arm as straight as possible and then using the reserve power to hit it has increased my distance this year by about 60-80' if you go by PB's.
> 
> ...


"Young grasshopper.... when you can snatch the pebble from my hand it is time for you to leave".

Time to go...lol. 

Not only do you get it, but you can explain it too.

Those that are old enough to remember the 70's TV show "Kung Fu" with David Carradine will get that quote... 

Tommy


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## andrew gormley (Oct 18, 2009)

Tommy said:


> Andrew, great to see you on P&S!!!
> 
> Welcome.
> 
> Tommy


thanks tommy


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## RW_20 (Oct 16, 2007)

I really struggled getting my numbers up, and am still not hitting the high marks of alot of these guys. Tommy has had to drill the straight arm and pull into my head and one day it finally hit home. I had actually gotten to the point where I could feel what the rod was doing. I am a technical type, and will try to think things out and break them down. For the longest time, I thought the power was from the push. I was trying so hard to throw the weight at the end, that it caused me to come off the ground. With beatings about the head, and really focusing, I realized that the rod is loaded the most by the fulcrum effect applied by the straight right arm and the hard pull by the left. In essence, The rotation and the swing is a great momentum builder, but the push pull, with its fulcrum effect is what loads the rod and adds the additional torque needed to move the lead to the extreme distances. This is why body size is not as big a deciding factor as you would think it would be, and form is so important.
I hope this makes some sense.


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## curtisb (Jul 21, 2004)

All of my longest cast have always came with a straight left arm. I have noticed that since my numbers have been falling off that my right arms is bent in videos. This is one of the problems I'm looking to fix in my future practices. I have noticed also on videos that this doesn't apply to everyone. The gentleman that just recently won our Texas Open here on video was throwing with a bent right arm and he hit 806'. Also in old videos of Ron Arra he had a bent right arm. So I guess it depends on the person which way works best. So I would have to say to try both ways and see which works for you.

CB


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## andrew gormley (Oct 18, 2009)

bent right arm high swing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qzRflimhyA&feature=related


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## Led (Feb 1, 2001)

Does this apply to left handed casters


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## Jackman1950 (Sep 28, 2008)

*Perfect form*

Fished with a gal from Jersey before the storm and this little women had the perfect form. She could really chuck it out there. Think her husband's name was Kevin but could she ever cast, beat by at least 50 yards almost every time. I was impressed, very little effort but she could really cast. Guess I should take a lesson or 12, Jack


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## Led (Feb 1, 2001)

Can refer to the lower hand as the leading hand this way the lefties can understand


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

Led said:


> Can refer to the lower hand as the leading hand this way the lefties can understand





> Hopefully my use of the terms "leading and "following" arm/elbow are clear. For the right hander the left arm "leads" the way with the right following.
> 
> I prefer the terms leading and following as more of a universal language-- it doesn't matter if your left or right handed-- as a left hander it helps to avoid confusion and prevents the necessity to "convert" right handed "speak" to left handed translations. Sorry-- just needed to make that clear.


Thanks for keeping us "lefties" in mind!


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## Hudak (Sep 10, 2007)

I am actually a lefty. I have been seriously toying with the idea of throwing left handed. Who knows, maybe that will give me an extra foot or two? LOL

Robert


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## Led (Feb 1, 2001)

From an instructors perspective it's quite difficult not to refer to your usual hand when talking through a cast, I learnt the name "Leading hand/arm" from John French who just happens to be left handed and it has stuck ever since.

With the amazing powers of software it is possible to 'flip' a movie from right to left giving the 'alternative' perspective  I'll post something on 'youtube' later to demonstrate 

I'm all for inclusion not exclusion :fishing:


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## Led (Feb 1, 2001)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CfpOVPc4J4

Enjoy.


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

Very cool Andy-- I like the "mirror" image effect.


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## Led (Feb 1, 2001)

Glad you liked it, hopefully we cam help the 'lefties' progress quicker


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