# 100gr



## otgcaster (Jun 3, 2009)

Been lurking a while checking the site out and gaining great info at the same time. I have a question. If a 5500 is suited for 125gr wonderfully, and 150gr nicely esp if slightly over spooled for casts past 800' (like I would ever worry about that)....

Using the smaller line diameter for the 100gr weight, would there be any advantage to using the more narrow spool of a 4600 size reel? Just thoughts running through my head....


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## Kwesi W. (Apr 14, 2006)

I believe for 100g the line size is .026 so in my opinion the 4600 will be too small.. I know one guy that throws 100g and he uses a 5500c3ct...


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

otgcaster said:


> Been lurking a while checking the site out and gaining great info at the same time. I have a question. If a 5500 is suited for 125gr wonderfully, and 150gr nicely esp if slightly over spooled for casts past 800' (like I would ever worry about that)....
> 
> Using the smaller line diameter for the 100gr weight, would there be any advantage to using the more narrow spool of a 4600 size reel? Just thoughts running through my head....



Line size is .25 -- as long as you can get enough line on the reel-- might need to slightly overfill it-- the smaller the spool the better.

I have my own theories-- but right or wrong, it's tough to get the 100 gram weight to fly. It would get fairly tehcnical to get into all the aspects of why this is, but suffice it to say, that in part, it's due to the initial energy being robbed from the sinker when it has to do it's job upon release-- getting the spool spinning at top speed. 

The heavier the spool-- the more energy needed to get it up to speed. 

The same length/diameter shock leader is used for all weights-- so the heavy shock leader robs the lighter sinker (due to less mass) of it's energy faster than a heavy sinker-- which altho it took more energy to get the heavy sinker going-- once it is going it maintains it's velocity over a longer period of time-- theory of relativity. What I am saying here is that the drag of the shockleader being towed has a more negative impact--slows the lighter weights down faster-- than it does the heavy sinkers.

In a nutshell-- your idea is valid-- use the lightest spool you can for the lighter weights.

I do use a 5500 when I throw the 100 gr-- only because I don't have anything smaller at the moment.


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## otgcaster (Jun 3, 2009)

Surfcat, that is primarily what I was considering.


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## SteveZ (Nov 30, 2006)

*Hmmm...*

Makes me think about the 5600 wiffle spool. Capacity is 160 yds of 12#...


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

SteveZ said:


> Makes me think about the 5600 wiffle spool. Capacity is 160 yds of 12#...



Should hold more than enough of 6 # test line-- which for most manufacturers will test at close to the .25 limit.


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## ironman (Aug 4, 2008)

...speaking of 100gr, Surfcat-I'm sorry I got away with your only 100gr sinker. 
Send address and I'll get it to ya...ironman


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## Al Kai (Jan 8, 2007)

It sems like a spinning reel might get more distance with 100 grams.


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

ironman said:


> ...speaking of 100gr, Surfcat-I'm sorry I got away with your only 100gr sinker.
> Send address and I'll get it to ya...ironman


No problem-- I had plenty more in the truck.


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

Al Kai said:


> It sems like a spinning reel might get more distance with 100 grams.


That idea might have merit-- it does seem the spinners do better with 125 grams than 150, but I'd have to let the spinner guys weigh in on their experience with the 100 gram weight.

I still think the required heavy shock hitting the stripper guide is going to take a lot of the initial steam off the velocity of the 100 gram, as compared to a less negligible effect with heavier weights. Could be wrong tho.


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## Led (Feb 1, 2001)

It is possible to make 230m+ casts with a UM1 or 4500 (Steve Morris has achieved this)

5500 wiffle spool - holds enough line to cast 220m+ and some extra.

Both using 0.25mm not 0.26mm

Hope this helps - I have and used both


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## Led (Feb 1, 2001)

Forgot to add.

5500 Wiffle spool from the WS5600 is a complete nightmare to mag - use with blocks and oils.

Hit it and let it go


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

Led said:


> It is possible to make 230m+ casts with a UM1 or 4500 (Steve Morris has achieved this)
> 
> 5500 wiffle spool - holds enough line to cast 220m+ and some extra.
> 
> ...


THanks Andy, I know you guys have been tossing that lead (100 gr) for awhile-- we just introduced it here a year or so ago.

Not too many casters have taken a serious interest in it yet.


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## AbuMike (Sep 3, 2007)

Surf Cat said:


> Line size is .25 -- as long as you can get enough line on the reel-- might need to slightly overfill it-- the smaller the spool the better.
> 
> I have my own theories-- but right or wrong, it's tough to get the 100 gram weight to fly. It would get fairly tehcnical to get into all the aspects of why this is, but suffice it to say, that in part, it's due to the initial energy being robbed from the sinker when it has to do it's job upon release-- getting the spool spinning at top speed.
> 
> ...


Hey Mark, this 100gr casting is very interesting. What rod are you using for this?


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## ReelinRod (May 29, 2003)

Surf Cat said:


> That idea might have merit-- it does seem the spinners do better with 125 grams than 150, but I'd have to let the spinner guys weigh in on their experience with the 100 gram weight.
> 
> I still think the required heavy shock hitting the stripper guide is going to take a lot of the initial steam off the velocity of the 100 gram, as compared to a less negligible effect with heavier weights. Could be wrong tho.


On the right day with good atmospherics it will go. I use my favorite fishing outfit for the 100gm; a Daiwa Basia and a 13'-2" All Star 1507 with little-bitty Lowrider guides on it. 

Even with the conditions in Charlotte the 100 went 622ft OTG on that set-up for me. If and when we can have a break from casting in HazyHotHumid I'm sure it will go a lot further.

The shocker is an issue and the .75 does hang sometimes in the Lowriders. If the shocker passes the .25mm running line goes great; it isn't much thicker than the 20lb braid I use for fishing and with braid running line and a 65lb braid casting leader the set-up has done 670 with 4ozs (of course there's *no* stretch on the braid casting leader, that light weight gets *everything* I put into the rod  ). 

I wish that we would adopt the UKSF rule and drop the tourney shocker to .65mm:



> "To be high visibility/fluorescent and minimum 0.75mm for 150gr, 175gr and 200gr and minimum 0.65mm for 50gr, 75gr, 100gr & 125gr"
> 
> *UKSF Rules*​


That would help a bit .


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## Led (Feb 1, 2001)

Sarge,

That is migthy fine casting with a spinner 

The 0.65mm leader does help a little. 

I actually prefer casting 100g on my spinner outfit


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## KConrad (Oct 14, 2007)

Sgt_Slough said:


> I wish that we would adopt the UKSF rule and drop the tourney shocker to .65mm:
> .


I've been reading the sportcastusa tournament rules and I have to say the line classification doesn't make sense to my feeble mind. 

Why would you adjust the running line from .25mm[.00984"] (6Lb test?) for the 100g class up through .31mm[.01220"] (10Lb test) for the 175g class, BUT not adjust your shock line from 50Lb test regardless??

175g is 6.1oz so the static figure is insufficient for the 175g class and serious overkill for the 100 and 125 gram class.

Maybe there is some rational explanation I'm missing, or maybe it's just an over sight, or maybe no one want's to put forth the effort to make a change.. but it would SEEM that if it's worth matching the running line to the weight class, then so should be the shock line as well?


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## curtisb (Jul 21, 2004)

Surf Cat said:


> THanks Andy, I know you guys have been tossing that lead (100 gr) for awhile-- we just introduced it here a year or so ago.
> 
> Not too many casters have taken a serious interest in it yet.


I don't understand why not either because that is a popular plug size for plugging. I tried to get them here in Texas to do a 100grm and no interest either. we don't do the 175grm either only the 125 and 150grm.


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## KConrad (Oct 14, 2007)

I know I'm a strange duck... and that's accepted... 

But I for one would have taken more interest long ago if there had been a lighter class. In fact what got my curiosity up on distance casting was watching Keith White's videos on 18g plug casting with a TTUL. 

I would love to give 100g a go someday, I think the 100g and 125g would be the only class I'd want to compete in. But 125g is the top range (maybe 5oz at times) of where I fish, so it makes sense to me to cast the weight I'm most accustom to and that I use most. 

I may be wrong, but I think there is _some_ "little big man" mentality at play here. What I mean is, it is perceived that the lighter weights would be more of a beginner or girly weight, and only real men cast 175..... It's typical male ego getting in the way of practical and logical thought. Honestly, the lighter weights would be much harder to produce significant distances with I'd think.


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## ironman (Aug 4, 2008)

Curtisb-there's interest now! I talked to Carlos (dig) yesterday about adding the 100 gr and 175 gr to the Fall tournament. *What we need is the sinkers!*


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## curtisb (Jul 21, 2004)

ironman said:


> Curtisb-there's interest now! I talked to Carlos (dig) yesterday about adding the 100 gr and 175 gr to the Fall tournament. *What we need is the sinkers!*


Hey Jack, I brought this up on Nick's board last year and got Fryed over it. Have Digg talk to Bob Sales. I think he may have the molds if I remember correctly.


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## curtisb (Jul 21, 2004)

I have only three 175grm myself. I got one from Bob and two from Big Lou last year at the Valentine Classic at Crystal Beach before Ike came to visit(guess I should start practicing with them).


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## demonfish (Mar 31, 2002)

if im not mistaken the whole point of shock line is the safty of it. a 100gr lead is as likely to go thru someones skull as is the 175. for ins reasons its a must on the field, but for fishing your call. myself i use 60lb andes on the field and for fishing.

frank


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## Hudak (Sep 10, 2007)

Not all that many in Sportcast from what I have seen throw the 175gr compared to the numbers who throw 150 and 125 grams. Most of the big hitters I have seen in Sportcast are using the .75mm Suffix Surf that is rated at 80lbs. There is a gaining interest in the 100gr. Myself included.

Robert


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## curtisb (Jul 21, 2004)

demonfish said:


> if im not mistaken the whole point of shock line is the safty of it. a 100gr lead is as likely to go thru someones skull as is the 175. for ins reasons its a must on the field, but for fishing your call. myself i use 60lb andes on the field and for fishing.
> 
> frank


Yes it is for safety. There is no poundage minumum on the field but there is a minimum diameter for a shock line and it's .75mm. I use Suffix shock line and it is 80lb test but dead on at .75mm diameter.


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## ironman (Aug 4, 2008)

Is there an engineer in the house? What stress is put on a .75mm shock leader casting a 175gr wt using a given casting force X? What stress for 100gr using same s/l, same casting force?


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## Led (Feb 1, 2001)

Is that with a smooth cast or a jerky one ?


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

ironman said:


> Is there an engineer in the house? What stress is put on a .75mm shock leader casting a 175gr wt using a given casting force X? What stress for 100gr using same s/l, same casting force?


Ultimately you would have to Know sinker speed (velocity) at release to determine the torque in N/m being put on the line. The velocity and the mass (inertia) of the sinker when combined will determine the stress put on the line.

It may be true that a heavy sinker swung at the same speed would put more stress on the shock line than a lighter sinker, but reality says most of us can swing a light lead much faster than a heavy one, so those are offsetting to a degree.-- The faster you swing the lead the more centrifugal force increases-- which stretches (and stressses) the line as speed increases.

One good reason for not changing the rule is there is little doubt the 100 gram will be safe.

Even if determined that .65 would be fine- it brings up the question of having to buy two different size shock lines-- and what are the chances that someone will inadvertently tie on a heavy sinker to the lighter shock line. We can't take the time to measure and check shock line for every cast. 

(I'm not saying people would intentionally cheat-- but that mistakes would happen-leading to a potentially unsafe situation. We all know we get busy at tournaments-- eventually someone WILL grab the wrong spool of shock leader by mistake. )


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## Hudak (Sep 10, 2007)

Surf Cat said:


> eventually someone WILL grab the wrong spool of shock leader by mistake. )


Playing the devils advocate here.... Require the different shockers to be different colors...

Robert


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

thekingfeeder said:


> Playing the devils advocate here.... Require the different shockers to be different colors...
> 
> Robert


Not everyone has access to the same shock, it's tough enough finding the right size in Hi- viz-- finding a company that manufactures both sizes in different colors might be tough-- and then we would be dictating which "Brand" you would need to use-- something we don't want to do. Other wise I could see some with red for lighter shock, and some with red for heavier shock, etc. And there are so many different tints of green and yellow-- so what constitues a different "color" may be subjective and hard to define in a rule.

Don't get me wrong, I would be very interested in giving every advantage we could to the 100gr weight, but the only way I could see doing it would be to have separate designated casting times for the weights (for instance designate a few rounds to each weight ), so that all those participating in those rounds would be throwing the same weight-- I think that would be too restrictive-- we like to let people choose the weight they want to throw for any given round. 

Obviously the different shock sizes seems to work overseas-- so it may not be a huge issue-- but we would have to have some discussions before considering a change.


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## Hudak (Sep 10, 2007)

I wasn't implying a color convention be imposed by SCUSA. Just that they are different colors to help the caster remember which is which, not dictating what the colors will be. That could be solved by requiring a piece of electrical tape wrapped tightly around the clip of the shocker for the 100gr sinker. Just something a little different to remind the caster as he clips a lead on. It isn't rocket science. But then again, all this is pointless right now cause all the shocker is the same thickness.

Robert


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

thekingfeeder said:


> Playing the devils advocate here.... * Require *the different shockers to be different colors...
> 
> Robert





> I wasn't implying a color convention be imposed by SCUSA


Sorry Robert-- my interpretation of "require" means mandated by a "rule", of which SCUSA is currently the governing body. Not trying to nitpick-- just saying..

At any rate, never hurts to discuss--- 

It would take a lot of tests casts to come up with some averages-- I'd certainly be interested in being able see data on just how much difference the thinner shock might help the 100 gr fly.


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## Hudak (Sep 10, 2007)

Surf Cat said:


> Sorry Robert-- my interpretation of "require" means mandated by a "rule", of which SCUSA is currently the governing body. Not trying to nitpick-- just saying..
> 
> At any rate, never hurts to discuss---
> 
> It would take a lot of tests casts to come up with some averages-- I'd certainly be interested in being able see data on just how much difference the thinner shock might help the 100 gr fly.


Yes I was saying require different colors, but not necessarily say that 125-175 has to be red and 100 has to be green. Just as long as they are different. One persons 100 could be red, and their 175 could be yellow, and others 100 could be orange and their 175 could be green. A casters choice. That way SCUSA couldn't be accused of being biased to one company. Not trying to nitpick but you put words in my mouth assuming I was insinuating a specific color convention mandated. Only that they be different is what I said. The electrical tape was just a suggestion if various colors for different sizes are limited. Of course, these would all be hi-vis just in case that connection wasn't made. SCUSA could require different colors without having to dictate what colors. It was thought of only a tool to help remind the caster. Not to designed to pull someone off the line cause their 100gr is orange instead of green. 

Robert


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

thekingfeeder said:


> Yes I was saying require different colors, but not necessarily say that 125-175 has to be red and 100 has to be green. Just as long as they are different. One persons 100 could be red, and their 175 could be yellow, and others 100 could be orange and their 175 could be green. A casters choice. That way SCUSA couldn't be accused of being biased to one company. Not trying to nitpick but you put words in my mouth assuming I was insinuating a specific color convention mandated. Only that they be different is what I said.


 I understand what your saying, but lots of casters hit up other casters for shock line from time to time-- the only way to avoid mass confusion would be to provide the casters with official tournament shock leader-- which, yes could be different colors for two different diameters-- unfortunately entry fees would have to go up-- and someone would still want to use "their own".

Not saying your suggested solution doesn't have merit, I'm just trying to envision how it would work. (thinking out loud, if you will)


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## Hudak (Sep 10, 2007)

You are thinking about it way more than I was....I was just playing the devils advocate. It was just a passing thought. A minor suggestion. I wasn't attempting to solve all the problems that may be associated with that situation. It was just a suggestion. That job is for the people who know more than me about rules and the potential consequences as a result of. I am not smart enough to foresee any problems and their soloutions with it. LOL It was just a thought. Personally I don't think it would be any more confusing than keeping up with what main line is used. You have been to alot more tourneys than I have, so you do have more experience in what would and wouldn't work. 

Robert


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## curtisb (Jul 21, 2004)

I have tried during practice sessions using different size shock leaders to see if there was any advantage to either or with a 125 and 150grm sinkers. All cast were about the same distance regardless of shock leader size. It seems the amout of leader on the reel made more difference than size in casting distance. A few of the guys a few years back from SFCCI also tried the same test but with .28mm line versus .31/.33mm line for 125 and 150grm sinkers. The results they came up with were that both lines no matter what weight thru about the same. Better distance seems to come with more practice of good technique and good well tuned equipment and of course it helps if the caster is in good shape(You shouldn't attempt strenious activities out of shape anyway). Distance casting can be quite strenious. Alot of walking, possible high temps from being in direct sunlight for long time plus hitting a full tournament cast fairly hard several times can make muscle sore and if out of shape can cause pulled muscles. So be careful out there everyone.


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## ironman (Aug 4, 2008)

One last thought…
if a 100gr is cast using X force on the .75 mm shock leader, the strain is Y. Then, if the SAME smooth cast is made using the SAME force X on a 175gr sinker, the stain on the shock leader would be greater-because the load is 75% greater. It seems clear that if the casting force is increased 75% on a 100gr sinker it may/could reach a point near or equal to X. Keep in mind that 75% INCREASE in force is a massive amount!

As for a different shock leader allowed for different sinker weights-the rules allow for different main lines for different sinkers and we keep that straight. It seems a small thing to pick up a different shock leader when casting a much smaller weight-if we wish to.
I bet the thinking was this; the rules were made so SOMETHING remains constant-the shock leader-because the shock leader takes initial force of the cast. That IS the safest for all of us-one size fits all!


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

ironman said:


> One last thought…
> if a 100gr is cast using X force on the .75 mm shock leader, the strain is Y. Then, if the SAME smooth cast is made using the SAME force X on a 175gr sinker, the stain on the shock leader would be greater-because the load is 75% greater. It seems clear that if the casting force is increased 75% on a 100gr sinker it may/could reach a point near or equal to X. Keep in mind that 75% INCREASE in force is a massive amount!
> 
> As for a different shock leader allowed for different sinker weights-the rules allow for different main lines for different sinkers and we keep that straight. It seems a small thing to pick up a different shock leader when casting a much smaller weight-if we wish to.
> I bet the thinking was this; the rules were made so SOMETHING remains constant-the shock leader-because the shock leader takes initial force of the cast. That IS the safest for all of us-one size fits all!


It was briefly discussed before-- the thought was that some of the really strong hitters -- could break the thinner shock leader-- even with a 100 gr weight-- so to be fair the shock requirement was kept the same for everyone.

One thing your math doesn't seem to account for is acceleration -- a smoothly acclerating cast may not stretch the shock leader in the same way that a rapid -- violent at the end acceleration does-- here I'm thinking smoothly accelerated pendulum versus OTG-- tho either have the potential to stretch a thin shock leader to it's breaking point.


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## ironman (Aug 4, 2008)

point taken...


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

One aspect that hasn't been brought up yet is whether the stretchiness of thinner shock would actually hurt distance - to me it would almost seem that this would be similar to using a slghtly softer rod, but I'm just posing a question here ??

Any thoughts ?


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## curtisb (Jul 21, 2004)

Surf Cat said:


> One aspect that hasn't been brought up yet is whether the stretchiness of thinner shock would actually hurt distance - to me it would almost seem that this would be similar to using a slghtly softer rod, but I'm just posing a question here ??
> 
> Any thoughts ?


I mentioned this in my post above, but from my test the cast were pretty much the same distances with either smaller or larger shockers.


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## ReelinRod (May 29, 2003)

Led said:


> Sarge,
> 
> That is migthy fine casting with a spinner


Thank Andy!



Surf Cat said:


> One aspect that hasn't been brought up yet is whether the stretchiness of thinner shock would actually hurt distance - to me it would almost seem that this would be similar to using a slghtly softer rod, but I'm just posing a question here ??
> 
> Any thoughts ?


Like I said earlier, I can cast a 100gm further on braided line on the spinner set-up I use (Basia & AS1507) - which would then have a 65lb casting leader and _no stretch_.

I guess I know what I'm gonna experiment with next . . . . And then I need to find out which mono / copolymer shocker is known for having the least stretch.


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## ironman (Aug 4, 2008)

Sgt-you might try Ultama shock leader. It has little stretch...
(BTW-it was a find thing you did at tourny. That young man was all smiles after you gave him the door prize.)


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

Sgt_Slough said:


> Thank Andy!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'd be interested in any results you come up with. At least in theory it would seem no stretch should equate to a deeper load into the rod--- altho-- a long drop pendulum caster might have plenty of time to work any stretch out of the shock leader before the final hit -- I'm not sure the same could be said for the groundcast.


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## Led (Feb 1, 2001)

Shockleaders from various companies do have different levels of stretch, and I have a number of spools of leader in 0.65mm that go from 50lb - 80lb test. 

Personally I have found that the higher the B/S to diameter the less stretch it has. A mono/co-polymer leader of a solid colour has less stretch than a Hi-Viz Fluro line of the same diameter/test ratio. 

When looking at an average length drop with a 14' rod you have around 24' of leader from the reel to the sinker (reel in low position 9" up and the sinker to the high hand with a 30" spacing), now if the leader stretches 3" for every 36" then over 24' your leader is now another 24" longer  wich affects the sinkers position during the final stages of the cast.


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## kingfish (Feb 28, 2004)

Andy what rod and reel are u guys making the 250 meter plus casts on, with the 100 gram sinker?


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## Led (Feb 1, 2001)

my best is 242.93m, Rod was with a Century CME (rung for a spinner - 4 guides + tip) with 3" removed form the tip (to tighten it up a little) and a Penn Surfmaster70. I cast OTG and had 5 or 6 that were all over 235m.

Most of the other guys are using their regular tourney gear. 
Rods- M4's, TTRs, M427's, SS's
Reels- ABU's 5500's & 56/66 Black max's

At a Kent Sportscast event - Steve Morris used a M4 and a UltraMag1 to a cast the 75g 232m  (0.25mm & 0.65mm leader)


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