# visual wrap update



## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

so got off my butt and decided to try my hand at one of the more decorative wraps- went with a two-toned star pattern for this one. It's not finished but here is a pic of the work in progress.
The pattern was taken from the library that visual wrap has to offer. Once I got my head around the terminology of visual wrap, it was pretty easy to follow the instructions.










This is probably as far as I'm taking this one, it was just a practice wrap for now.

Couple of lessons learned.

The first few lay out threads are very important to set up properly- everything builds off those first threads- so spacing in doing a closed wrap becomes critical. I made the mistake of only bothering to lay out the intersect on the top (0 degree) axis, at a minimum the intersect points should also be laid out on the 180 degree (bottom) axis as well. 

If you don't get both axis right you'll likely wind up with gaps on one axis while the other tends to close early.

If you haven't spent much time packing threads get ready, it seems like I spent way more time doing that than actual thread layout- but it is critical to getting the wrap to look good.

Last point, as Treed mentioned in his post, if you just use masking tape to tape the threads down you will eventually wind up with a nightmarish looking ball of tape and thread at the end of each side of the wrap- I'll be attempting the double sided tape layout I described in Treed's thread on my next attempt.

Final conclusion- WHAT A PAIN ! Probably took 15 hours to get as far as I did, it's time consuming, meticulous work, but like putting one of those 10,000 piece jigsaw puzzles together, it's nice when you can see that the end is near, and your project actually starts to look like some thing you wouldn't mind seeing on a rod.


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## HellRhaY (Jul 6, 2007)

if it is just practice, it is already very nicely done.
great work.


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## ffemtreed (Mar 29, 2007)

Very nice! I hope I can have the patience one day to accomplish such a task. I just don't think I have it in me yet!


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## TreednNC (Jul 1, 2005)

Beautiful...im somewhat color blind but i think those blues with that brown? are awesome. Not something I think I would have tried, but just goes to show that my lack of imagination will probably hinder my building. I love it. I cant deside what style I want to go with next. Visual wrap is indeed an awesome tool!


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## Team Buddhahead (Apr 3, 2007)

Looks great!!!!


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## WALT D. (Dec 18, 2003)

Very Nice Surf Cat!

That is one of my favorite patterns, and I really like the color choice. 

Yea it is a pain, but it's a labor of love. I've got one I'm not even half way through that I've got 14 hours in, probably would have helped if I had the Viswrap program. I'm really impressed with the reports of the software and will probably pick up a copy at the show.

Keep Wrapping!

Walt


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## OBX_Nomad (Mar 8, 2005)

Surf Cat,

I know nothing about wrapping a rod. The only thing I've wrapped with any regularity is my fingers around a Corona, but that is a beautiful piece of work. It's simple on one hand and eye catching on the other. Great job.


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## TreednNC (Jul 1, 2005)

Mark what script is that. Was wanting to do something similar to that, but I might change my mind.


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## RuddeDogg (Mar 20, 2004)

*awesome*

That looks great.


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## SEA DOG (Apr 10, 2006)

mark that is really nice


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

TreednNC said:


> Mark what script is that. Was wanting to do something similar to that, but I might change my mind.


Thanks Guys, Treed it is one of the star patterns from the visual wrap library. THere is a similar pattern in Billy's book, with only slightly different wrapping instructions.


Next up- the 3d chevron pattern. I just got in my supply of Madera thread form Mudhole- man is that some brilliant looking thread- I see why Billy likes it- will make some gorgeous looking wraps no doubt. I'm goona have to improve my CP application skills when using that stuff, tho.
BTW- you must not be THAT color blind Treed. The background thread was a Black/brown combination thread that mudhole was selling for $.99 a spool. SInce this was apractice wrap I didn't want to waste real expensive thread.

Doing the star in metallic thread for an actual wrap would add quite a bit of shimmer to the pattern.


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## TreednNC (Jul 1, 2005)

Hmmm so many choices. I spent a couple hours on VW lastnight tinkering around with scripts and colors. Found one I really liked, but like an idiot I didnt save it. I need to figure out how to download the thread libraries, my computer said the pages were dead lastnight, and the colors dont seem that brilliant on the VW program.


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

TreednNC said:


> Hmmm so many choices. I spent a couple hours on VW lastnight tinkering around with scripts and colors. Found one I really liked, but like an idiot I didnt save it. I need to figure out how to download the thread libraries, my computer said the pages were dead lastnight, and the colors dont seem that brilliant on the VW program.


I agree with that last statement- the computer screen and colors in VW aren't anything like the actual thread colors. Not sure what's going on with the downloads Treed, I didn't have any problem saving to my pattern library- right click and save target as - then change the default to all file types (if I remember correctly) will check again this evening.


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## TreednNC (Jul 1, 2005)

It wasnt downloading that was the problem, it was just that I couldnt even get to the thread library page. I'm not sure what the deal is. I might download them here (shhh at work) and email them to myself and try save them to vw tonight.....cant remember right off hand, but that Maderia thread or whatever, is that metallic stuff?


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## WALT D. (Dec 18, 2003)

Surf Cat that maderia polyneon can be addictive; I've got over 200 colors and still keep ordering the stuff. Right now you can save a lot at JOHNNY's POND it's like $1.90 a spool, that's cheaper than I can get it wholesale. I don't know how long they'll have it at that price but I've been buying there for at least a couple months now.

Walt


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## TreednNC (Jul 1, 2005)

Not Surf Cat but Thanks Walt!


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## Reelturner (Dec 24, 2003)

Surf Cat..

That looks rreeaaallll good.

Impresssive to me.

RT


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

WALT D. said:


> Surf Cat that maderia polyneon can be addictive; I've got over 200 colors and still keep ordering the stuff. Right now you can save a lot at JOHNNY's POND it's like $1.90 a spool, that's cheaper than I can get it wholesale. I don't know how long they'll have it at that price but I've been buying there for at least a couple months now.
> 
> Walt



Thanks for the heads up Walt- I ordered the starter kit from mudhole- 30 spools, plus a couple of extras to fill in the in between shades, I can see me stocking up at that price you mentioned.

Treed, not metallic, but polyester, very vibrant colors, only thing negative is I understand it has some type of oil applied to it that requiires CP, you can't epoxy over it the way you might a metallic thread. That's one reason I like Gudebrod metallic HT - no CP required. Of course metaalics have there own downside, so thought I'd try this stuff out.


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

WALT D. said:


> Surf Cat that maderia polyneon can be addictive; I've got over 200 colors and still keep ordering the stuff. Right now you can save a lot at JOHNNY's POND it's like $1.90 a spool, that's cheaper than I can get it wholesale. I don't know how long they'll have it at that price but I've been buying there for at least a couple months now.
> 
> Walt



Thanks for the heads up Walt- I ordered the starter kit from mudhole- 30 spools, plus a couple of extras to fill in the in between shades, I can see me stocking up at that price you mentioned.

Treed, not metallic, but polyester (polyneon), very vibrant colors, only thing negative is I understand it has some type of oil applied to it that requiires CP, you can't epoxy over it the way you might a metallic thread. That's one reason I like Gudebrod metallic HT - no CP required. OF course metallics have their own issues, so I thought I'd try something different.


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## TreednNC (Jul 1, 2005)

Mark what do you do for a living? lol. I need a job where I can get all the latest and greatest and order $90 of thread at a time lol


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

TreednNC said:


> Mark what do you do for a living? lol. I need a job where I can get all the latest and greatest and order $90 of thread at a time lol


My boring job (shh, don't tell the boss) is a Power Broker/ trading analyst for a large wholesale power company. (think Enron, but we're non-profit )

At any rate yeah I wasn't sure I wanted to buy that much thread, but it saved me significantly off the single spool price, and since I got my rod builders dealerss license (legit now, despite the advise I got from SOL ) I figured I'd better get cracking on my thread art- practice- practice, etc.

So - in for a penny, in for a pound.

I like the fact that Madeira offers so many color choices and it is way cheaper than Metallic HT- it comes in 1100 yd spools- for about the same price as the 100 yd spool of Gudebrod metallic


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## TreednNC (Jul 1, 2005)

OH yeah.....about the Gudebrod metallic.....is it just me or does it seem extremely fragile? It seems to twist and kink real easily as well and get knicks in it that can ruin from the knick to the end of the thread. Just my personal experience.....Then again Ive only used one metallic in size A and it seemed manageable. I wont touch D again any time soon though. Got a gift card to Mudhole, might invest in a couple spools of that Mederia *spell check*

Per the holding the threads down with a wrap, I talked to Jim Focht (spell check, sorry Jim) and he used the sticky side up masking tape, then wraps the end on the tap once)


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## TreednNC (Jul 1, 2005)

Yeah, Im not too worried about applying CP to it. It is what it is. Id love to aquire that much stuff, but at the rate Im going now, it'll be 2020 before it'd pay for itsself lol.

EDIT: The vibrant colors are worth the CP tradeoff


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

TreednNC said:


> OH yeah.....about the Gudebrod metallic.....is it just me or does it seem extremely fragile? It seems to twist and kink real easily as well and get knicks in it that can ruin from the knick to the end of the thread. Just my personal experience.....Then again Ive only used one metallic in size A and it seemed manageable. I wont touch D again any time soon though. Got a gift card to Mudhole, might invest in a couple spools of that Mederia *spell check*
> 
> Per the holding the threads down with a wrap, I talked to Jim Focht (spell check, sorry Jim) and he used the sticky side up masking tape, then wraps the end on the tap once)


The metallic stuff does have issues- I have only gotten one spool that was bad (frayed) right out of the package, but you do have to be careful packing it and you should not attempt to burnish it at all. It is good for trim rings and dec wraps, BTW when I use it I don't put it thru a thread tensioner device, that has the potential to scrape the outer sheath off.


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## TreednNC (Jul 1, 2005)

Surf Cat said:


> The metallic stuff does have issues- I have only gotten one spool that was bad (frayed) right out of the package, but you do have to be careful packing it and you should not attempt to burnish it at all. It is good for trim rings and dec wraps, *BTW when I use it I don't put it thru a thread tensioner device, that has the potential to scrape the outer sheath off.*



Yep, I dont use a tensioner, but a bobbin instead (gotta get the tensioner though, seems like it makes a straighter tighter wrap) and it scrapes the outer sheath of metallic coloring off sometimes.


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

just took a look at the Johnny's pond site, pretty cool.

They had some additional info on Madeira and some comparisons between Gudebrod. Madeira is slightly smaller in diameter and has a lower breaking point (approximately 20 %)- so I am wondering if it will hold up for guide wraps- especially on the heavier duty surf rods. 
Any thoughts Walt ?


As fas as decorative wraps- that is where it's forte seems to be, vibrant colors covering every imaginable color and shade- over 365 colors.

BTW- Treed, if ya thought $90.00 was a bit much for thread you can order the complete spectrum of Madeira colors from Johnny's, for a mere $665.00  Includes your choice of storage box or wall display


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## AtlantaKing (Jul 7, 2002)

Don't use Madeira for guide wraps. Tensile strength too low and doesn't allow finish to be wicked into the fibers of the thread. Polyester also has different stretch characteristics than nylon, which will most likely negatively impact guide wrapping durability.


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## TreednNC (Jul 1, 2005)

Hmmm maybe Ill just stick to Gudebrod lol. Im rough on my stuff


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

AtlantaKing said:


> Don't use Madeira for guide wraps. Tensile strength too low and doesn't allow finish to be wicked into the fibers of the thread. Polyester also has different stretch characteristics than nylon, which will most likely negatively impact guide wrapping durability.



That was kind of my thought, I'll try the madeira for decorative wraps, but hold off on the guides until I have heard some success stories- Johnny's apparently guarantees it to hold up on guide wraps- but only in freshwater applications.


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## WALT D. (Dec 18, 2003)

I've only been using the polyneon for the decorative stuff as well, with a few underwraps thrown in. I doubt I'd trust it for guides; it might be ok for a light spinner or bait rod though.

Walt


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## basstardo (Jun 5, 2006)

The thing that would concern me the most is that the thread is wet out by the finish. I haven't tried it yet, but I did just pick up some National Tackle thread from Merrick. Their neon colors are really nice. They don't have some of the wild colors Madeira does, but they work for my purposes. It's nylon as well.


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## TreednNC (Jul 1, 2005)

still on the fence. couldnt see what it would hurt just being a butt wrap though


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

TreednNC said:


> still on the fence. couldnt see what it would hurt just being a butt wrap though


My understanding is as long as you get the Madeira coated with CP you'll be good to go. I have seen some posts where the builder didn't bother with CP, the result was an ugly mess- my understanding is the Madeira was developed for use in the embroidery business and is coated with a thin film of oil that will have a bad result if it contacts finish epoxy directly.

Will be experimenting soon, but if Walts using it and Billy highly recommends it, then I'm pretty sure it will work out OK


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## TreednNC (Jul 1, 2005)

Should be. Not worried about color, just durability, but on a but wrap, covered in finish, Im not sure what it would hurt?


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## basstardo (Jun 5, 2006)

TreednNC said:


> Should be. Not worried about color, just durability, but on a but wrap, covered in finish, Im not sure what it would hurt?


I don't think it would hurt at all for a butt wrap, but I think Mark is saying the coating on the thread just doesn't sit well with the finish and that you must you CP first to prevent that from happening. I've never heard that before, but I'm glad I did before using it. There are several of the brighter neon colors I want to get from Johnny's pond. The only thing I've head that worries me is the size difference between Madeira and standard A thread. I've never compared the two so I don't know if it would be noticeable on a wrap.


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## Mark G (Nov 15, 2004)

> Madeira Polyneon #40 is Embroidery thread which is gaining acceptance with rod builders. Over 340 colors give rod builders the tools to take decorative wraps to a higher level. Let's compare Madeira to what has become the mainstay of rod building thread Gudebrod. Gudebrod thread is made of nylon, Madeira is made of polyester, because of the polyester the infamous fuzzes are greatly reduced, you can put your touches and lighters away. In our opinion at Johnny's pond Madeira thread seems to lay better and is easier to compress. Strength, the most commonly asked question is how Madeira compare to Gudebrod, Gudebrod has a tensile strength of 1201 on the centinewton scale or as they say a break strength of 2.7 pounds. Madeira has a tensile strength of 1000 on the centinewton scale that is a difference of 20 percent or approximately 6 ounces of strength. Madeira is also slightly smaller in diameter .005 inch compared to Gudebrod .006 inch. We at Johnny's Pond are so confident of Madeira thread that we will guarantee any single wrap guide for any freshwater species of fish. If a wrap fails because of poor thread strength Johnny's Pond will pay for a new wrap.



Copied this over from another site.

I don't think the .001 inch difference in diameter is going to be very noticeable, if anything it should make for nicer looking wraps- just like A looks better than D.

Only way to know for sure is try it and see. Will post back my findings after a couple of experiments.


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## WALT D. (Dec 18, 2003)

I use A size thread and Polyneon together all the time I can't tell any real difference in size, the only thing really noticable is that the stretch is different.

I have epoxied over polyneon without CP and have had mixed results, the biggest problem without CP was fish eyes, but I've seen a couple tartan wraps that were done without CP that looked great.

I think the polyneon is a great product, but time will be the best test of it's durability for me. 

Walt


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## basstardo (Jun 5, 2006)

If it holds up, you can't beat it with a stick for the price. Great color selection as well.


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## Elkhunter (Jun 18, 2004)

Give the Embroidery threads a shot... I have used them on several rods and even on a rod I built for a friend who owns a Sewing store.
You can find about any larger sewing store has Maderia as well as many additional brands of polyneon type thread. Have only had one bad experience with Polyneon Metallic Copper. When I put my CP on it turned the whole thing Black  Had to tear it off and redo it. No huge deal as it was my rod. Thats the cool thing about building your own. If it gets messed up or don't last redo it  One thing I like the color seems to not bleed at all. I can't say that for some other threads I have seen.


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